I know most of you are thinking, "oh no, not this again" but I am simply putting some facts in this thread, and hopefully not causing a huge debate over recruiting. We have been discussing this for awhile now, so I decided to look into it and do some of the numbers, similar on the other thread. So, here are some numbers for football since 2001 and soccer since 2007.
Football since 2001:
80 championship games in all the classifications. From 01-05, there were only four classifications. The current set up was implemented in 06.
Through the last 15 years, there has been at least one private state champion in one of the classes all but three years (2013, 2007, 2005). Every other year, a private school has won the title in one of the classifications. In 2015 and 2008, two of the champions were private schools. Now, 12/15 is equal to 80 percent. 80 percent of those years, we have had a private school champion in at least one classification.
But, as pointed out by Red Devil in another thread, that is a deceiving percentage. Of those 80 championship games from 2001, 14 have been won by private schools, or roughly 17ish percent. So, actually, only 17 percent of the total games were won by a private school. The 17 percent of private school champions is only comprised by 4 schools: PA, CAC, Harding, and Shiloh.
Now, that doesn't seem right. 83 percent of the champions are public schools. That's a fact. But, there are many, many more public schools than private schools. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I would bet that there are fewer than 15 private schools that compete in football, and they are taking a state championship 17 percent of the time.
Soccer since 2007:
The current soccer set up happened in 2007, I believe. The private schools have dominated girls soccer, other than Harrison. The boys is a little different, simply because of 6A and DeQueen in the lower classifications. There are only 4 classifications in soccer. 4A and down, then 5A, 6A, and 7A.
Boys: There has been a private school champion in 7/9 years in at least one classification. 3 years there have been 2 private school champions. 7/9 is 78ish percent. But, let's go back to the argument made above: out of the 36 actual games being played, 10 were won by a private school. That's 27 percent. Again, there are only 4 private schools that are doing this in this sport. 4 private schools are winning 27 percent of the championship games.
Girls: Way worse in girls. All but 2014 has seen a private school champion in at least one classification. 6 of those years had 2 champions from private schools and 1 year had 3. Out of the 36 games, 15 have been private (42 percent). 6 private school teams have won the title. Now, here is where it gets interesting: take away 6 and 7A. In 5A, Harrison girls have won twice...the rest being won by a private school. 7 of the last 9 champions in 5A girls soccer have been won by a private school. Same in 4A (Gentry and VV won the last two).
I did not look through to see how many privates knocked out other privates that may have one that same year, but I do know it would have happened in soccer a few times.
So, to recap: In football, 80 championship games have been played since 01 and 17 percent of them have been won by a private school. In Boys soccer, 36 games since 07 and 27 percent have been won by a private school. In Girls soccer, 36 games have been played and 15 have been won by a private school, but in 5A and 4A, it is 14/18 in favor of the private schools.
I am not throwing these numbers out to help prove a point that I have, but simply to show everyone in one place. I haven't had time to do basketball or other sports, but maybe somebody else can. My point is really this: Yes, we have all agreed that private schools have advantages over public schools in different ways. But, the advantage doesn't make them unstoppable (except for girls soccer, apparently). The sports leagues are more competitive with them mixed into the public schools. However, I do wish the state would go into a success advancement system. This means that the more successful your program is, you bump up another class.
Also, for the critics, there are several schools that would prove to be way more dominant than private schools in specific sports. Junction city and Greenwood have 6 titles since 01, Charleston has 5. Fayetteville and Bentonville make up 8 of the last 10 champions in 7A. ElDo has won 4/10 in 6A alone. So, if you think the private schools are dominating the state, they aren't. There are a some public schools that are way more dominant, even though its a select few.
Think of it this way: There are 4 private schools that have won 14 titles in football through 80 games. So let me take four of the most successful public schools: Greenwood/JC/Charleston/(any team with 4 titles). That is 21 state champions from these 4 schools, which equals 26 percent. That's 9 percent more than the 4 private schools.
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
Nice job. I know you started looking at college players from those schools also. The number from the public schools listed and their players would be interesting. Also the fact that those are public schools that anyone in the district can attend and play as long as they make grades. In this discussion to me the biggest advantage that PA has is location. Being able to draw from the biggest city without having district lines and competing in the middle as far as classification goes for football. No one argues the public schools mentioned are successful, their numbers have them were they are. Their location and district have a say in their enrollment. Although the numbers you post are interesting and factual and you noted some advantages are present, this was one that sticks out to me. Of course if Catholic or central were having the success of PA I believe that's where some would be going instead of PA.
Good work on that like what u posted here
I would like to add something to this this subject if they are playing with public school league then why aren't they have to fallow the same rules everyone dose who are public why private school don't have to fallow the same rules
Quote from: tmycjy on December 17, 2015, 04:34:27 pm
Good work on that like what u posted here
I would like to add something to this this subject if they are playing with public school league then why aren't they have to fallow the same rules everyone dose who are public why private school don't have to fallow the same rules
Private schools do pretty much have to follow the same rules as public schools. There are a few exceptions I'm sure, but I don't know what they are right off.
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 04:27:28 pm
Nice job. I know you started looking at college players from those schools also. The number from the public schools listed and their players would be interesting. Also the fact that those are public schools that anyone in the district can attend and play as long as they make grades. In this discussion to me the biggest advantage that PA has is location. Being able to draw from the biggest city without having district lines and competing in the middle as far as classification goes for football. No one argues the public schools mentioned are successful, their numbers have them were they are. Their location and district have a say in their enrollment. Although the numbers you post are interesting and factual and you noted some advantages are present, this was one that sticks out to me. Of course if Catholic or central were having the success of PA I believe that's where some would be going instead of PA.
The most successful private schools are probably PA and Shiloh, although Harding has won 3 titles I think. PA and Shiloh are in prime locations because of how populated their areas are. Now, there are some other privates in those areas too, but PA and Shiloh have built up a reputation so if you are in that area and want to play football for a private schools, you lean toward them.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I believe there are only 11 private schools that participate in football in the state. But, I think that works against a public schools argument too. If you have 300 public schools and only a handful of the public schools are dominating the sport, wouldn't that mean they are doing something to gain an advantage over the others?
For instance, JC and Greenwood have 6 titles each since 01. Charleston has 5. Several have 4 titles each. So, those 10 schools or so, out of 300, continually win the titles compared to the others.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 04:50:28 pm
Quote from: tmycjy on December 17, 2015, 04:34:27 pm
Good work on that like what u posted here
I would like to add something to this this subject if they are playing with public school league then why aren't they have to fallow the same rules everyone dose who are public why private school don't have to fallow the same rules
Private schools do pretty much have to follow the same rules as public schools. There are a few exceptions I'm sure, but I don't know what they are right off.
My why isn't the same why are the exception
I'm not certain there are any exceptions. I believe they have to go by the same rules, except they play up a classification if they have more than 80 students enrolled. School choice has eliminated having to live in the district, and if you transfer and live outside of the district (or 25 mile radius for private) then you have to sit out a full calendar year.
Think about it...If you are in LR, your kid is good at sports, you want a quality education, and you can either pay for it or receive financial assistance, would you want your child at PA or CAC? Maybe LRC? I'm not sure many would say no, but some would. I know of several families that would move their kid to a school that is good at football, depending on their job flexibility. If you are a D-1 athlete, your family moving isn't that huge of a burden compared to the rewards that could benefit them. You don't have to pay for college, your kid gets more recognition, and possibly goes to a good d-1 school, then who knows what happens after that.
This doesn't just apply to private schools. The public schools that are so good every year are the ones that produce the top prospects in the state, with the exception of a few. Batesville rarely has anyone of d-1 talent, but they are always pretty good. Greenwood always has one or two, PA, Bentonville, Fayetteville, ElDo, Pine Bluff, Warren, etc. The programs that everyone in the state know are the ones that produce the talent. Why not go there for sports if you want recognition and are able to?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 04:58:34 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I believe there are only 11 private schools that participate in football in the state. But, I think that works against a public schools argument too. If you have 300 public schools and only a handful of the public schools are dominating the sport, wouldn't that mean they are doing something to gain an advantage over the others?
For instance, JC and Greenwood have 6 titles each since 01. Charleston has 5. Several have 4 titles each. So, those 10 schools or so, out of 300, continually win the titles compared to the others.
This was the point I was trying to make on the other thread. The successful public schools like those you name are either doing something different from the unsuccessful ones or they are just really lucky. They don't have the advantages the private schools have. So what is the secret to their success?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 05:18:25 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 04:58:34 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I believe there are only 11 private schools that participate in football in the state. But, I think that works against a public schools argument too. If you have 300 public schools and only a handful of the public schools are dominating the sport, wouldn't that mean they are doing something to gain an advantage over the others?
For instance, JC and Greenwood have 6 titles each since 01. Charleston has 5. Several have 4 titles each. So, those 10 schools or so, out of 300, continually win the titles compared to the others.
This was the point I was trying to make on the other thread. The successful public schools like those you name are either doing something different from the unsuccessful ones or they are just really lucky. They don't have the advantages the private schools have. So what is the secret to their success?
Athletes and coaching! I'm not sure how they get the athletes, but the ones I named and the privates that win have always had extremely talented athletes. It's ludicrous for somebody to argue otherwise, as Eddie always says PA doesn't have more athletes than the public schools. Now they might not have more than Pine Bluff or Bentonville/Fayetteville, but according to their numbers, they have more athletes per student ratio. I think that's a main reason people are so hard on a school like PA. The enrollment numbers are tiny compared to Fayetteville/Bentonville, but they are throwing out D-1 players left and right.
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....
Good athletes flock to where they can win...or the coaching is outstanding
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....
Cheaters.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 05:58:39 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....
Cheaters.
Of course they are cheaters....they are just public school cheaters...
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 06:00:06 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 05:58:39 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....
Cheaters.
Of course they are cheaters....they are just public school cheaters...
I assume that is tongue in cheek.
I don't think Warren is recruiting. Nor do I think that parents are moving to Warren so their kids can play football there. There has to be another explanation.
I think it is coaching.
Genetics!!
Good stuff MDX. Thanks
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know. Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers. Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play. So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships. That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity. If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know. Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers. Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play. So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships. That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity. If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.
Charleston, junction city, greenwood, fayettevill, bentonville, and nashville....have How many titles again?
Those schools like Warren have players , generations of players , their granddaddy all the way down and further, Bo knows a great place to coach and win, not taking anything from him, just saying it's the jimmys and the joes , when Atkins was a good team years ago , great tradition, they always had a Bobo on the team, last one played at uca, I'm sure the supporters from those towns can tell you the names , just like Morrilton has the trezvants , Criswells, Duncan's (Toney Hawkins mothers family ) , fosters and so on.
Quote from: HF on December 17, 2015, 08:18:02 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know. Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers. Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play. So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships. That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity. If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.
Charleston, junction city, greenwood, fayettevill, bentonville, and nashville....have How many titles again?
What does that matter?
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know. Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers. Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play. So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships. That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity. If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.
If your numbers are correct, then the percentage of wins by private schools is certainly out of line.
But, those numbers are greatly skewed by PA and Shiloh. HA has, I think, 3 state championships. If you remove PA and Shiloh, the privates are probably about the same as the publics.
But, you say, why should we remove PA and Shiloh? Because they are the outliers. They skew the numbers like a winning public school, like Warren, would in an analysis of what factors influence a successful public school.
Or, viewed another way, maybe the complaint should just be that PA and Shiloh have been too good. The argument that private schools have an unfair advantage rings hollow when applied to schools like Catholic, Conway Christian, Subiaco, CAC and LRC.
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 07:58:05 pm
Genetics!!
1. Town support.
2. Facilities.
3. Coaching.
4. Winning attitude.
5. Tradition.
6. Strong in-town pee wee program that starts lumberjack football at an early age.
And so on.
If a place can instill a winning attitude and a winning tradition into their kids and town the Sky is the limit. Look at greenwood. They were a doormat for years but they turned the attitude around. Has anyone ever been to Nashville or Warren, AR? There is nothing in those towns like it is in Little Rock or Bentonville. But there IS PRIDE. Every kid that begins walking through the halls of eastside elementary want to put on the lumberjack jersey. Why? Because their grandfathers did, dads did, brothers, uncles, etc etc.
I understand what PA dad is looking at I think, if all were like him PA would probably not be looked at like they have been. I don't hear near as much about LRC , Harding academy or Conway Christian, the public schools should win more titles and probably do , I think the point MDXPHD was trying to make was they weren't dominant. I personally feel as I've said before PA is different because of the success and location. One could say they are a victim of their own success. I've said I don't think it's actually recruiting, but rather as another poster said who wouldn't want to go there , I agree with a couple things mentioned by others , the enrollment at PA has them where they are , but the ratio of college caliber not only D1 players is much higher there. It seems some PA posters want to brag about how good they are but want everyone to believe they are equal playing field with public schools. I was told today it's either PA or Greenwood, if they moved up we would get Greenwood back , I'd rather play PA right now. That's just me , I would rather them move up and greenwood stay but as I've said to PA posters , can't have cake and eat it too. So it is what it is.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 17, 2015, 08:53:06 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 07:58:05 pm
Genetics!!
1. Town support.
2. Facilities.
3. Coaching.
4. Winning attitude.
5. Tradition.
6. Strong in-town pee wee program that starts lumberjack football at an early age.
And so on.
If a place can instill a winning attitude and a winning tradition into their kids and town the Sky is the limit. Look at greenwood. They were a doormat for years but they turned the attitude around. Has anyone ever been to Nashville or Warren, AR? There is nothing in those towns like it is in Little Rock or Bentonville. But there IS PRIDE. Every kid that begins walking through the halls of eastside elementary want to put on the lumberjack jersey. Why? Because their grandfathers did, dads did, brothers, uncles, etc etc.
Good post.
You could, with only a couple of modifications, say the same about PA.
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know. Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers. Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play. So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships. That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity. If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.
Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?
Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
I would have no problem with an automatic bump to the next level if, for instance, a school won 2 or 3 (pick your number) state championships in a row or won 3 in five years. I think if such a rule is adopted it should be applied to both public and private schools.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 17, 2015, 08:53:06 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 07:58:05 pm
Genetics!!
1. Town support.
2. Facilities.
3. Coaching.
4. Winning attitude.
5. Tradition.
6. Strong in-town pee wee program that starts lumberjack football at an early age.
And so on.
If a place can instill a winning attitude and a winning tradition into their kids and town the Sky is the limit. Look at greenwood. They were a doormat for years but they turned the attitude around. Has anyone ever been to Nashville or Warren, AR? There is nothing in those towns like it is in Little Rock or Bentonville. But there IS PRIDE. Every kid that begins walking through the halls of eastside elementary want to put on the lumberjack jersey. Why? Because their grandfathers did, dads did, brothers, uncles, etc etc.
My point exactly! Great post
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 09:03:22 pm
I would have no problem with an automatic bump to the next level if, for instance, a school won 2 or 3 (pick your number) state championships in a row or won 3 in five years. I think if such a rule is adopted it should be applied to both public and private schools.
Agreed. The success advancement system should be implemented in this state. I don't see too many negatives. The school could always move back down during the next cycle if they don't win at that level.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 09:03:22 pm
I would have no problem with an automatic bump to the next level if, for instance, a school won 2 or 3 (pick your number) state championships in a row or won 3 in five years. I think if such a rule is adopted it should be applied to both public and private schools.
Maybe not a bad idea , if numbers dictated it also , but if it's gonna be both then let's say private schools have district lines as well ? Gotta live in certain area , there has to be boundaries, otherwise Conway players could go to greenbrier or Vilonia for example, those lines apply to the public schools,
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 09:18:58 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 09:03:22 pm
I would have no problem with an automatic bump to the next level if, for instance, a school won 2 or 3 (pick your number) state championships in a row or won 3 in five years. I think if such a rule is adopted it should be applied to both public and private schools.
Maybe not a bad idea , if numbers dictated it also , but if it's gonna be both then let's say private schools have district lines as well ? Gotta live in certain area , there has to be boundaries, otherwise Conway players could go to greenbrier or Vilonia for example, those lines apply to the public schools,
You can go to any public school under school choice, I think. If you transfer after 7th grade (maybe?) then you have to sit out a year.
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 09:18:58 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 09:03:22 pm
I would have no problem with an automatic bump to the next level if, for instance, a school won 2 or 3 (pick your number) state championships in a row or won 3 in five years. I think if such a rule is adopted it should be applied to both public and private schools.
Maybe not a bad idea , if numbers dictated it also , but if it's gonna be both then let's say private schools have district lines as well ? Gotta live in certain area , there has to be boundaries, otherwise Conway players could go to greenbrier or Vilonia for example, those lines apply to the public schools,
Applying area limitations to private schools would shut them down. And, if you just applied those limitations to athletes, it would probably kill athletic programs at private schools.
I understand, not saying it should be that way or shut them down athletically, but being devils advocate here , see how some get the idea that money and brains mean you get special treatment? We get to play but we have rules that are different but it's ok because we are who we are , not saying how I see it but I think you will agree that is also what gave Shiloh an advantage and what's separated PA in recent times , not saying coaching and hard work hasn't been involved, just saying it helps that you could live in Pottsville and attend PA
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 09:41:23 pm
I understand, not saying it should be that way or shut them down athletically, but being devils advocate here , see how some get the idea that money and brains mean you get special treatment? We get to play but we have rules that are different but it's ok because we are who we are , not saying how I see it but I think you will agree that is also what gave Shiloh an advantage and what's separated PA in recent times , not saying coaching and hard work hasn't been involved, just saying it helps that you could live in Pottsville and attend PA
I understand that argument and that is certainly an advantage the private schools have, although less so now with school choice in public schools. As an example, Monk moved from eastern Arkansas to Fayetteville to play for a big time school.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 07:55:31 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 06:00:06 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 05:58:39 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....
Cheaters.
Of course they are cheaters....they are just public school cheaters...
I assume that is tongue in cheek.
I don't think Warren is recruiting. Nor do I think that parents are moving to Warren so their kids can play football there. There has to be another explanation.
I think it is coaching.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 09:48:22 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 09:41:23 pm
I understand, not saying it should be that way or shut them down athletically, but being devils advocate here , see how some get the idea that money and brains mean you get special treatment? We get to play but we have rules that are different but it's ok because we are who we are , not saying how I see it but I think you will agree that is also what gave Shiloh an advantage and what's separated PA in recent times , not saying coaching and hard work hasn't been involved, just saying it helps that you could live in Pottsville and attend PA
I understand that argument and that is certainly an advantage the private schools have, although less so now with school choice in public schools. As an example, Monk moved from eastern Arkansas to Fayetteville to play for a big time school.
Indeed he did. Second player in that family from small town , moved to some place that believed to be better. School of choice is one thing , but it's not as easy as it seems. Why did he pick there ? Same reason some would chose PA for football. The fort smith schools got Matt jones to play there because his parent worked there but lived in van buren , to hear him talk there was no way he'd played there. Where do the youth football players play ? Isn't there a league they play in there amongst private schools?
Congrats to MDXPHD on a good analysis, and a good discussion. ;)
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 07:55:31 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 06:00:06 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 05:58:39 pm
Quote from: Baitshop on December 17, 2015, 05:56:25 pm
On the other hand, Greenwood is 1/4 the size if Bentonville and put more kids in D-1 schools...
And then there is Warren that may supply more D-1 players than any school in the state regardless of school population....
Cheaters.
Of course they are cheaters....they are just public school cheaters...
I assume that is tongue in cheek.
Yes, it was....the thought that anyone that wins consistently must be cheating is, and has been, in the DNA of Fearless Friday for as long as I have been a poster here....
Bump up winning teams because they are on a run? Ludicrous, in my humble opinion. PA was a doormat for eons until KK arrived.
Recruiting? Prove it. Start with PA. name a kid from Pottsville, or Brinkley, or Bryant or Searcy or anywhere else who is on the team.
They have a great coach and a unique system. They are supposed to be 4A as it is. They are enjoying a run, and eventually it will end. So punish them by moving them to 6A? I don't get that.
Someone step up and take the crown. Just like Shiloh, it will eventually turn. Until then, they will continue to play with a target on them and take everyone's best shot.
Come on guys. Advocating they move up to 6A is the coward's solution. In my most humble opinion.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:00:23 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know. Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers. Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play. So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships. That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity. If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.
Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?
Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
Let's do the same thing, then. 4 of 11 private schools have titles. That's 36% of private schools with at least one title. What percentage of public schools have won a title? Much lower than 36%, I'm sure of that.
Also, it's interesting to note that the public schools that have been so dominant have, almost without exception, done so in divisions that either lack private schools (6A), or lack championship-caliber private schools (i.e., no 7A or 2A private school has won a title).
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 18, 2015, 12:07:16 am
Bump up winning teams because they are on a run? Ludicrous, in my humble opinion. PA was a doormat for eons until KK arrived.
Recruiting? Prove it. Start with PA. name a kid from Pottsville, or Brinkley, or Bryant or Searcy or anywhere else who is on the team.
They have a great coach and a unique system. They are supposed to be 4A as it is. They are enjoying a run, and eventually it will end. So punish them by moving them to 6A? I don't get that.
Someone step up and take the crown. Just like Shiloh, it will eventually turn. Until then, they will continue to play with a target on them and take everyone's best shot.
Come on guys. Advocating they move up to 6A is the coward's solution. In my most humble opinion.
No one said they are recruiting. I don't know who is on the team and who isn't. We were having a discussion, do all players on the team live within five miles of the school? Whatever the distant would be for a public school in a highly populated area with other schools nearby , no because those lines would hurt private schools and possibly kill athletics at them. Your argument about being 4a , your team is turning out more college players than any 5a school on a regular basis, you want to talk about being a coward, you play in a classification where a single D1 player can make a team a contender, (hope) great example of how big an impact, while you have 2-4 on most teams , mercy ruling your opponents, think that's just fine to beat a team by 35, it acceptable, they should lay down and quit when you do this btw, you want to keep things exactly how they are , as though you have no advantage, and you wonder why the majority of the state hates your school and now your coach. You want to rationalize you pounding teams , as long it's 35 or less it's ok , no it's not.
As I said , the success PA has had is why players choose to go there. No one could blame them. Just like to see them play teams with similar talent , it's not the case when you're mercy ruling teams. Doesn't matter nothing will change and with the attitude like yours PA will be more hated this year because you and a couple others will continue to stir it up and this will be KK last year at PA , it's the rumor in coaching circle
With the little animal that blew smoke in his teachers face in NLR, I see why parents in little rock send their kids to privates.
Good thread. I can't give you records for football but here is the link below of all the 7A, 6A, 5A and 4 thru 1A state boys and girls soccer champions/state runner-ups since 1998 when it started in Arkansas. (This list was made with the help of some of you soccer and non soccer fans above and others. Thank you for helping me in searching old records, the 'net and asking around to find the info.)
http://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=135409.0
Here is the CLASS 5A records for an example with the private schools highlighted:
BOYS
2015 - De Queen (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2014 - De Queen (Runner-up HS Lakeside)
2013 - Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Harrison)
2012 – Siloam Springs (Runner-up HS Lakeside)
2011 – Siloam Springs (Runner-up HS Lakeside)
2010 – Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Hope)
2009 – Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Central Arkansas Christian)
2008 – Harrison (Runner-up LR Christian)
2007 – Pulaski Academy (Runner-up Siloam Springs)
2006 – Harrison (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2005 – Harrison (Runner-up Siloam Springs)
2004 – Harrison (Runner-up Central Arkansas Christian)
2003 – Harrison (Runner-up HS Lakeside)
2002 – Harrison (Runner-up Searcy)
GIRLS
2015 - Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2014 - Harrison (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2013 - Shiloh Christian (Runner-up Harrison)
2012 – Central Arkansas Christian (Runner-up LR Christian)
2011 – Harrison (Runner-up LR Christian)
2010 – Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2009 – Little Rock Christian (Runner-up Central Arkansas Christian)
2008 – Pulaski Academy (Runner-up LR Christian)
2007 – Pulaski Academy (Runner-up LR Christian)
2006 – Central Arkansas Christian (Runner-up Pulaski Academy)
2005 – Pulaski Academy (Runner-up Little Rock Christian)
2004 – Harrison (Runner-up Arkadelphia)
2003 – Pulaski Academy (Runner-up Harrison)
2002 – Harrison (Runner-up Searcy)
If you look at all the records, PA also played in the 4A and what we call now, the 7A at one time. Shiloh and CAC has played in the 5A and 4A over the years. Now some soccer teams in AR just have a girl's team (Shiloh for example) or boy's team.
A lot of the boys/girls athletes in this sport play in club ball during the year to keep their talent up and some of them play other sport's during the rest of the school year too.
Does private schools have a edge over public schools in athletics? Maybe, sometimes. I think that schools only get better in playing a higher caliber team whether it is public or private. Public schools, just beat a private school. It can be done. Harrison/Siloam Springs/South conference has done this in soccer. Greenwood in football.
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 18, 2015, 12:20:52 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:00:23 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know. Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers. Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play. So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships. That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity. If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.
Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?
Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
Let's do the same thing, then. 4 of 11 private schools have titles. That's 36% of private schools with at least one title. What percentage of public schools have won a title? Much lower than 36%, I'm sure of that.
Also, it's interesting to note that the public schools that have been so dominant have, almost without exception, done so in divisions that either lack private schools (6A), or lack championship-caliber private schools (i.e., no 7A or 2A private school has won a title).
I agree that a higher percentage of private schools are winning, but I would argue that it's almost expected. 4 our of 11 of the schools being successful isn't a surprise. I think what is surprising is that less than 20 percent of the public schools are successful. Probably closer to 10 percent. So 90 percent of the public schools just aren't really successful, and that should be higher I think.
3A,4A, and 5A have won even against the championship caliber teams. The 6A doesn't have one, but they could hold their own against any of the privates for sure. I don't think that the dominant public schools have been dominating because of the lack of quality privates in their classification.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 18, 2015, 12:07:16 am
Bump up winning teams because they are on a run? Ludicrous, in my humble opinion. PA was a doormat for eons until KK arrived.
Recruiting? Prove it. Start with PA. name a kid from Pottsville, or Brinkley, or Bryant or Searcy or anywhere else who is on the team.
They have a great coach and a unique system. They are supposed to be 4A as it is. They are enjoying a run, and eventually it will end. So punish them by moving them to 6A? I don't get that.
Someone step up and take the crown. Just like Shiloh, it will eventually turn. Until then, they will continue to play with a target on them and take everyone's best shot.
Come on guys. Advocating they move up to 6A is the coward's solution. In my most humble opinion.
I take a different view. I think a bump up is a reward. Watching mercy rule games is just not much fun. And, if you're capable of competing at a higher level, why not welcome the competition?
Great post PA dad! +1
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 18, 2015, 12:20:52 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:00:23 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know. Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers. Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play. So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships. That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity. If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.
Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?
Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
Let's do the same thing, then. 4 of 11 private schools have titles. That's 36% of private schools with at least one title. What percentage of public schools have won a title? Much lower than 36%, I'm sure of that.
Also, it's interesting to note that the public schools that have been so dominant have, almost without exception, done so in divisions that either lack private schools (6A), or lack championship-caliber private schools (i.e., no 7A or 2A private school has won a title).
How about Charleston in 3A? HA is in 3A and Charleston has far more championships. Greenwood had no problem competing against PA when they were both in the same classification. Warren and Nashville have no problem competing with Shiloh in 4A.
And, I'll go back to a point I made earlier. The real gripe, at least right now, is PA. No one is complaining that Catholic or Conway Christian or LRC or CAC has a great advantage. Why not? Because they aren't winning state titles.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 18, 2015, 08:22:03 am
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 18, 2015, 12:20:52 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:00:23 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know. Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers. Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play. So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships. That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity. If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.
Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?
Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
Let's do the same thing, then. 4 of 11 private schools have titles. That's 36% of private schools with at least one title. What percentage of public schools have won a title? Much lower than 36%, I'm sure of that.
Also, it's interesting to note that the public schools that have been so dominant have, almost without exception, done so in divisions that either lack private schools (6A), or lack championship-caliber private schools (i.e., no 7A or 2A private school has won a title).
I agree that a higher percentage of private schools are winning, but I would argue that it's almost expected. 4 our of 11 of the schools being successful isn't a surprise. I think what is surprising is that less than 20 percent of the public schools are successful. Probably closer to 10 percent. So 90 percent of the public schools just aren't really successful, and that should be higher I think.
3A,4A, and 5A have won even against the championship caliber teams. The 6A doesn't have one, but they could hold their own against any of the privates for sure. I don't think that the dominant public schools have been dominating because of the lack of quality privates in their classification.
Excellent point. ;)
I think a sad truth is that a lot of the high school football play & technique in Arkansas is, frankly, REALLY BAD.
Pulaski Academy and Batesville are examples of excellent coaching. Look what happened at Blytheville with better coaches?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 18, 2015, 09:21:14 am
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 18, 2015, 12:20:52 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:00:23 pm
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 17, 2015, 08:11:16 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2015, 04:11:15 pm
Good work. It's always better to deal with the facts than with unproven assertions.
I think these numbers tell us a lot, but I'd like to see more (don't we always?). I'd like to know the total number of schools in all classifications that compete in football and the total number of private schools that compete in football. We would then know the percentage of private schools and could compare that with the percentage of championships won by private schools.
But, I think your numbers show that private schools do not dominate football in Arkansas. They may win slightly more than they should based on the percent of private schools who compete in football, but I don't think it would be much more.
If anyone has the numbers I requested above, please post them. We might be onto an intelligent discussion about this subject!
I don't know. Best I can tell, there are 210 schools playing football listed in the 16-18 numbers. Elsewhere on this thread it's been said there are 11 private schools that play. So you've got 5% of the schools winning 17% of the championships. That's not "slightly more", that's over 3X what you'd expect if there were parity. If anything the numbers are probably even worse because recent consolidations of schools mean that there are fewer public schools on the 16-18 list than there have actually been playing since 2001 when this data began.
Let me get this straight. You are counting all 11 percent of the privates for the 17 percent, right? So you say that is 5 percent of the 210 schools that are winning 17 percent. What would parity be? The private schools should win how many?
Out of that 5 percent, only 4 have won the title I think. So, 4 out of 210 make up the 17 percent. But, when you look at the public schools, you could do the same thing, but 4 out of those 210 have made up 26 percent of the titles. So you have four public schools making up over a quarter of the champions. Approximately 10 schools make up over half of the state champions, which is crazy to me if that's out of the 210 schools.
Let's do the same thing, then. 4 of 11 private schools have titles. That's 36% of private schools with at least one title. What percentage of public schools have won a title? Much lower than 36%, I'm sure of that.
Also, it's interesting to note that the public schools that have been so dominant have, almost without exception, done so in divisions that either lack private schools (6A), or lack championship-caliber private schools (i.e., no 7A or 2A private school has won a title).
How about Charleston in 3A? HA is in 3A and Charleston has far more championships. Greenwood had no problem competing against PA when they were both in the same classification. Warren and Nashville have no problem competing with Shiloh in 4A.
And, I'll go back to a point I made earlier. The real gripe, at least right now, is PA. No one is complaining that Catholic or Conway Christian or LRC or CAC has a great advantage. Why not? Because they aren't winning state titles.
We're discussing how private schools win a disproportionate number of titles. Why talk about schools that have never won titles? No one's talking about North Pulaski or DeQueen on the public side.
You'll notice that I said "almost without exception". Harding Academy was the exception I was thinking of; Charleston has done a remarkable job in 3A. Yes, Greenwood is 2-2 vs PA(and three of four times, the winner went on to a state title), but of their 7 titles, only 2 were won while they were in the same classification as PA (both times they had to beat PA to get there). They've largely dominated when they didn't have to face a PA, Shiloh, etc. Likewise, Nashville's titles almost invariably came when PA and Shiloh were in different divisions. Sure, Shiloh's in 4A right now, but we both know that right now they aren't on a level with PA; Shiloh hasn't been good since 2010.
It is true that the lack of geographic restrictions is an advantage for private schools for sure. Of course, the requirement to pay tuition rather than it being free is a difficulty.
One thing I've noticed in all this discussion, is that the success of private schools is cyclical, just like it is with a number of public schools. Years ago, CAC and Shiloh were always in the state title discussion, or winning them. Now, HA and PA are the big dogs. Granted, PA has had the longest run of relative success, but I don't think it really has anything to do with being a private school. They are located in a large metro area where the majority of the other schools are not good football programs. Most of the public and magnet schools are basketball schools right now, and the lack of football success around programs in LR has helped PA. Also, they are well-coached, and have a system that is really difficult, if not impossible to completely game plan for in one week. As for HA, they are a C of C school located in a heavily populated C of C area. They probably get a lot of kids that would otherwise go to Searcy but for the church affiliation.
I think in time, we'll see the pendulum swing back the other way, but for now the 5A and 3A just have to deal with the fact that the dominant private schools are in those classifications.
An interesting analysis might be:
LIST OF HIGH SCHOOLS THAT HAVE WON MULTIPLE CHAMPIONSHIPS, IN THE ORDER OF THE NUMBER OF CHAMPIONSHIPS.
Rather than compare private to public, simply look at dominance.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 18, 2015, 11:54:00 am
It is true that the lack of geographic restrictions is an advantage for private schools for sure. Of course, the requirement to pay tuition rather than it being free is a difficulty.
If the school wants you, they will waive the tuition.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 05:20:42 pm
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 18, 2015, 11:54:00 am
It is true that the lack of geographic restrictions is an advantage for private schools for sure. Of course, the requirement to pay tuition rather than it being free is a difficulty.
If the school wants you, they will waive the tuition.
100% untrue. 100%.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on December 18, 2015, 12:21:08 pm
One thing I've noticed in all this discussion, is that the success of private schools is cyclical, just like it is with a number of public schools. Years ago, CAC and Shiloh were always in the state title discussion, or winning them. Now, HA and PA are the big dogs. Granted, PA has had the longest run of relative success, but I don't think it really has anything to do with being a private school. They are located in a large metro area where the majority of the other schools are not good football programs. Most of the public and magnet schools are basketball schools right now, and the lack of football success around programs in LR has helped PA. Also, they are well-coached, and have a system that is really difficult, if not impossible to completely game plan for in one week. As for HA, they are a C of C school located in a heavily populated C of C area. They probably get a lot of kids that would otherwise go to Searcy but for the church affiliation.
I think in time, we'll see the pendulum swing back the other way, but for now the 5A and 3A just have to deal with the fact that the dominant private schools are in those classifications.
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this. All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times. AW is right!!
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
You obviously know a lot about this. So, tell us how it happens. Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be? Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?
I know the answers to these questions. I bet you don't. If you do, tell us.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this. All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times. AW is right!!
So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it? Have you ever taken a class in logic?
If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:29:23 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this. All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times. AW is right!!
So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it? Have you ever taken a class in logic?
If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
I see I have struck a nerve!! Let's turn it around. Tell me how you can prove it doesn't happen!
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:29:23 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this. All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times. AW is right!!
So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it? Have you ever taken a class in logic?
If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
Check your pm.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:32:04 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:29:23 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this. All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times. AW is right!!
So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it? Have you ever taken a class in logic?
If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
I see I have struck a nerve!! Let's turn it around. Tell me how you can prove it doesn't happen!
Really? You said it's true because you've heard it many times but you can't prove it. That kind of reasoning always strikes a nerve because there's no reason to it.
Check the regulations. No private school can decide who gets a scholarship or how much it is worth. The school can only decide who gets admitted. An application for financials assistance is sent to a third party administrator not connected to the school. That administrator, based in Boston, decides who gets assistance and how much they get.
The school has no say so.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
You obviously know a lot about this. So, tell us how it happens. Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be? Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?
I know the answers to these questions. I bet you don't. If you do, tell us.
Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.
I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.
So some third party with no connection to the school just tells the school "these 12 kids get discounts of 20%" and the school say "oh, ok, sure." and goes along with it? Why? That doesn't make any sense. The school has to have something to do with setting criteria. Why else would the school have them running their discount program?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:54:19 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:32:04 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:29:23 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this. All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times. AW is right!!
So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it? Have you ever taken a class in logic?
If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
I see I have struck a nerve!! Let's turn it around. Tell me how you can prove it doesn't happen!
Really? You said it's true because you've heard it many times but you can't prove it. That kind of reasoning always strikes a nerve because there's no reason to it.
Check the regulations. No private school can decide who gets a scholarship or how much it is worth. The school can only decide who gets admitted. An application for financials assistance is sent to a third party administrator not connected to the school. That administrator, based in Boston, decides who gets assistance and how much they get.
The school has no say so.
So, students DO get financial assistance, if warranted? I had no idea that was true. All private schools have administrators who make this decision based in Boston? I didn't know that. Those that get it, what is it based on?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
You obviously know a lot about this. So, tell us how it happens. Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be? Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?
I know the answers to these questions. I bet you don't. If you do, tell us.
Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.
I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.
Since the AAA isn't actually a government body, do they have to honor FOIA requests? I thought that only applied to government records (and not all of those).
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes. I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 19, 2015, 10:06:25 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
You obviously know a lot about this. So, tell us how it happens. Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be? Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?
I know the answers to these questions. I bet you don't. If you do, tell us.
Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.
I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.
Since the AAA isn't actually a government body, do they have to honor FOIA requests? I thought that only applied to government records (and not all of those).
I believe so. I had to research and I found a case regarding this:
"It was conceded at trial, and on appeal, that the AAA is subject to the provisions of the FOIA as an organization in this state supported "wholly or in part by public funds or expending public funds."
Depoyster v. Cole 766 S.W.2d 606 (1989)
FOI isn't just for government bodies, but it applies to public entities I think, such as a public school or organization.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
You obviously know a lot about this. So, tell us how it happens. Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be? Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?
I know the answers to these questions. I bet you don't. If you do, tell us.
Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.
I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.
See my explanation above. I'll be interested to see what information you get. I believe that about 90% of students who get financial assistance at PA do not participate in athletics.
And, if the school directly decides who gets scholarships or how much they get, the kid loses his eligibility to participate in college athletics.
I do not know the name of the third party administrator nor do I know who determines who that is. But I think the school has no input into that decision.
I'm all in favor of getting the facts out. What I don't like is posters who claim to know when they have no clue or who believe something because they've heard it said many times.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 10:12:23 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
You obviously know a lot about this. So, tell us how it happens. Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be? Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?
I know the answers to these questions. I bet you don't. If you do, tell us.
Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.
I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.
See my explanation above. I'll be interested to see what information you get. I believe that about 90% of students who get financial assistance at PA do not participate in athletics.
And, if the school directly decides who gets scholarships or how much they get, the kid loses his eligibility to participate in college athletics.
I do not know the name of the third party administrator nor do I know who determines who that is. But I think the school has no input into that decision.
I'm all in favor of getting the facts out. What I don't like is posters who claim to know when they have no clue or who believe something because they've heard it said many times.
I understand. I thought that getting the information of the total number of students who get financial aid and also the number of athletes who get it will help us understand better. If just a couple athletes get it, then I'm sure people can understand it, although those athletes shouldn't be the two d-1 players on your team lol. If I was a betting man, I would bet the majority of the athletes go there for sports and their parents can afford to send them there for that.
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 19, 2015, 10:05:13 pm
So some third party with no connection to the school just tells the school "these 12 kids get discounts of 20%" and the school say "oh, ok, sure." and goes along with it? Why? That doesn't make any sense. The school has to have something to do with setting criteria. Why else would the school have them running their discount program?
I will not pretend to know all of the ins and outs of the system because I don't. The school may set a limit on the number of students who get assistance or the amount of assistance a student can get. But I'm confident the school does not decide which students get assistance or how much they get.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 10:06:11 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:54:19 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:32:04 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:29:23 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 09:25:48 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this. All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times. AW is right!!
So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it? Have you ever taken a class in logic?
If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
I see I have struck a nerve!! Let's turn it around. Tell me how you can prove it doesn't happen!
Really? You said it's true because you've heard it many times but you can't prove it. That kind of reasoning always strikes a nerve because there's no reason to it.
Check the regulations. No private school can decide who gets a scholarship or how much it is worth. The school can only decide who gets admitted. An application for financials assistance is sent to a third party administrator not connected to the school. That administrator, based in Boston, decides who gets assistance and how much they get.
The school has no say so.
So, students DO get financial assistance, if warranted? I had no idea that was true. All private schools have administrators who make this decision based in Boston? I didn't know that. Those that get it, what is it based on?
I think the amount of assistance awarded is based on need. I do not think any assistance is given based on merit, either academic or athletic. But note that is my belief - I do not know that for sure.
Private schools are not the only ones who attract good athletes because of a strong football program or even basketball program.
I'll just say this. Even if I could prove it, I wouldn't. I would have to name names, otherwise how could I prove it? I never name names, especially something that wouldn't be to their benefit. But, as I said before, how can you prove it doesn't happen. Unless you are directly involved. Are you? My information, that I only HEARD, wasn't concerning PA. And, what is wrong with kids getting financial assistance? I never said anyone recruited! By the way, I believe the Earth is round, but I can't prove that either!
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:14:44 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 10:12:23 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:03:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:26:55 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 09:22:09 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
I don't know how to cut, paste and reply. But I agree Chief Osceola. Completely. And that's my point. PA is on a run. It isn't going to last forever. Come take it from them, 5A.
And Red Devil, you are correct. The tuition waiver talk is the same as the recruiting talk. Lots of talk. No evidence, but lots of talk.
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
You obviously know a lot about this. So, tell us how it happens. Who makes the decision to give a scholarship and who decides how much it will be? Is it based on athletic ability or academic ability?
I know the answers to these questions. I bet you don't. If you do, tell us.
Surely you can enlighten us. Kids who need tuition assistance definitely get it from PA and other private schools. You guys need to explain to everyone how it happens and what company does the screening so everyone will understand. I know you have to hire out a 3rd party to do the screening.
I have requested a FOI to the AAA to get the number of athletes who receive financial assistance at private schools. Each private school has to provide this information to the AAA early during the school year and also a supplemental list early December. Hopefully they will get back to me soon, but I don't think they will. I will be calling Monday since that will have been three days since my request. I'm not sure what their hours are during the holidays.
See my explanation above. I'll be interested to see what information you get. I believe that about 90% of students who get financial assistance at PA do not participate in athletics.
And, if the school directly decides who gets scholarships or how much they get, the kid loses his eligibility to participate in college athletics.
I do not know the name of the third party administrator nor do I know who determines who that is. But I think the school has no input into that decision.
I'm all in favor of getting the facts out. What I don't like is posters who claim to know when they have no clue or who believe something because they've heard it said many times.
I understand. I thought that getting the information of the total number of students who get financial aid and also the number of athletes who get it will help us understand better. If just a couple athletes get it, then I'm sure people can understand it, although those athletes shouldn't be the two d-1 players on your team lol. If I was a betting man, I would bet the majority of the athletes go there for sports and their parents can afford to send them there for that.
Based on what I know about the players and their families, I will be very surprised if more than 2or 3 of the football players receive any financial assistance.
Let me add a caveat. The children of all teachers pay one half tuition. I assume Kelley is considered to be a teacher. So I assume Zack Kelley attends at half tuition. But, as noted, that's not based on athletic ability.
Quote from: Almatrackster on December 19, 2015, 10:21:54 pm
Private schools are not the only ones who attract good athletes because of a strong football program or even basketball program.
NLR never attracts new basketball players.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 10:26:59 pm
I'll just say this. Even if I could prove it, I wouldn't. I would have to name names, otherwise how could I prove it? I never name names, especially something that wouldn't be to their benefit. But, as I said before, how can you prove it doesn't happen. Unless you are directly involved. Are you? My information, that I only HEARD, wasn't concerning PA. And, what is wrong with kids getting financial assistance? I never said anyone recruited! By the way, I believe the Earth is round, but I can't prove that either!
This discussion started because you said that if a school wants you they will waive the tuition. That cannot happen. That is my point.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:28:56 pm
Quote from: Almatrackster on December 19, 2015, 10:21:54 pm
Private schools are not the only ones who attract good athletes because of a strong football program or even basketball program.
NLR never attracts new basketball players.
NLR used to attract good football players!
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 10:33:40 pm
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 19, 2015, 10:26:59 pm
I'll just say this. Even if I could prove it, I wouldn't. I would have to name names, otherwise how could I prove it? I never name names, especially something that wouldn't be to their benefit. But, as I said before, how can you prove it doesn't happen. Unless you are directly involved. Are you? My information, that I only HEARD, wasn't concerning PA. And, what is wrong with kids getting financial assistance? I never said anyone recruited! By the way, I believe the Earth is round, but I can't prove that either!
This discussion started because you said that if a school wants you they will waive the tuition. That cannot happen. That is my point.
Perhaps I was wrong! Or, at least, I should have expanded what I meant. I certainly didn't mean they recruited, or did any untoward.
Pa must be the only school that makes kids of teachers pay half tuition. I know for a fact of one school that is private that lets their employees kids attend free. I worked with a spouse of a teacher at a particular private school here in central ark. And another one does the same not in this area of the state.
She told me the pay isn't as good as a public school for her spouse. But the benefit of her kid being able to attend this school was well worth it.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes. I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.
If that has happened, it has not happened in the last 4 or 5 years. I've done an analysis of the 2015 players and the great majority of them have been at PA since grade school. I posted that analysis in another thread. Those who transferred in after the 9th grade generally came from out of state because their parents were transferred here for employment reasons.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:28:56 pm
Quote from: Almatrackster on December 19, 2015, 10:21:54 pm
Private schools are not the only ones who attract good athletes because of a strong football program or even basketball program.
NLR never attracts new basketball players.
I know you are being sarcastic, but it happens on a small scale at any school with a good football program or basketball program.
Parents will move and take their kids to other schools because of athletics. Happens every year at multiple school districts.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 10:39:56 pm
Pa must be the only school that makes kids of teachers pay half tuition. I know for a fact of one school that is private that lets their employees kids attend free. I worked with a spouse of a teacher at a particular private school here in central ark. And another one does the same not in this area of the state.
She told me the pay isn't as good as a public school for her spouse. But the benefit of her kid being able to attend this school was well worth it.
I know a couple of teachers at PA with kids at the school. They do have to pay half tuition.
MDX, do you know if the information you will get from your FOIA request will show how many football players get assistance versus athletes? Since our discussion concerns football, I'm not sure knowing the number of athletes helps much - I doubt many of us care how many cross country runners get assistance.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 10:52:59 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2015, 10:39:56 pm
Pa must be the only school that makes kids of teachers pay half tuition. I know for a fact of one school that is private that lets their employees kids attend free. I worked with a spouse of a teacher at a particular private school here in central ark. And another one does the same not in this area of the state.
She told me the pay isn't as good as a public school for her spouse. But the benefit of her kid being able to attend this school was well worth it.
I know a couple of teachers at PA with kids at the school. They do have to pay half tuition.
This private I'm talking about is not pa.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes. I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.
Sure, kids come in from other districts and play football. The issue is why. For example, our best defensive lineman transferred in as a freshman or sophomore. His dad is a colonel in the Air Force and was transferred to LRAFB. Is that recruiting? Is it cheating?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 11:04:34 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes. I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.
Sure, kids come in from other districts and play football. The issue is why. For example, our best defensive lineman transferred in as a freshman or sophomore. His dad is a colonel in the Air Force and was transferred to LRAFB. Is that recruiting? Is it cheating?
Although you aren't asking me, of course it's not. You know it's the offseason when the
"Does anyone else think private schools recruit?" thread pops up.
And it's not like the AAA ignores that private schools have certain advantages. Every private school must play up on classification based on enrollment.
Quote from: Almatrackster on December 19, 2015, 11:06:46 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 11:04:34 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes. I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.
Sure, kids come in from other districts and play football. The issue is why. For example, our best defensive lineman transferred in as a freshman or sophomore. His dad is a colonel in the Air Force and was transferred to LRAFB. Is that recruiting? Is it cheating?
Although you aren't asking me, of course it's not. You know it's the offseason when the
"Does anyone else think private schools recruit?" thread pops up.
And it's not like the AAA ignores that private schools have certain advantages. Every private school must play up on classification based on enrollment.
Of course, you are correct. And, I don't think MDX started this thread to talk about recruiting. He started it with factual information about whether private schools have an unfair advantage. It has been an interesting thread. But, about every thread regarding private schools eventually involves recruiting.
I'm not sure how you could even describe unfair advantages. There will always be haves and have nots for everything.
A program that can overcome the disadvantages, whatever they may be, are what make high school sports so fun.
High schools aren't all given the same amount of scholarships. High schools aren't given the same amount of draft picks or salary cap.
High schools work with what they got.
Quote from: Almatrackster on December 19, 2015, 11:23:28 pm
I'm not sure how you could even describe unfair advantages. There will always be haves and have nots for everything.
A program that can overcome the disadvantages, whatever they may be, are what make high school sports so fun.
High schools aren't all given the same amount of scholarships. High schools aren't given the same amount of draft picks or salary cap.
High schools work with what they got.
Well said. And a few of them, both public and private, do a much better job than the rest.
may I share?
I was raised in public schools. When I moved to LR, I used to got to PA games to root against them. I was a supreme hater. Then I had two girls and didn't want to send them to the public school options. I researched academics and settled on PA. It was a bitter pill to swallow. I didn't think I could ever pull for PA. you know, with all the recruiting and privileged kids.
Then I saw with my own eyes why they were good. They simply out worked everyone (I don't want to restart that debate) and the kids playing were mostly kids who had always gone to PA. None of the stuff I was "hating" about turned out to be true. These were good kids who worked their ever loving butts off, and survived under a very tough coach with extremely high expectations. Once I learned first hand why they were good, I was able to become a fan.
So I get it when other folks hate. You can see it on their faces when they come to PA for a game. I really do understand. I was once one of them. All I can say is it is better to know the facts rather than buying into the unfounded rumors. I don't apologize for being a PA fan anymore. And I respect the kids and coaches for all the work they put into being the best team they can be. And I hope coach Kelley stays there for the next several years.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 11:04:34 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes. I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.
Sure, kids come in from other districts and play football. The issue is why. For example, our best defensive lineman transferred in as a freshman or sophomore. His dad is a colonel in the Air Force and was transferred to LRAFB. Is that recruiting? Is it cheating?
I heard Kelley called Obama and had him transfer the dad there...maybe it's true or maybe it's a rumor. I believe it.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 11:52:45 pm
may I share?
I was raised in public schools. When I moved to LR, I used to got to PA games to root against them. I was a supreme hater. Then I had two girls and didn't want to send them to the public school options. I researched academics and settled on PA. It was a bitter pill to swallow. I didn't think I could ever pull for PA. you know, with all the recruiting and privileged kids.
Then I saw with my own eyes why they were good. They simply out worked everyone (I don't want to restart that debate) and the kids playing were mostly kids who had always gone to PA. None of the stuff I was "hating" about turned out to be true. These were good kids who worked their ever loving butts off, and survived under a very tough coach with extremely high expectations. Once I learned first hand why they were good, I was able to become a fan.
So I get it when other folks hate. You can see it on their faces when they come to PA for a game. I really do understand. I was once one of them. All I can say is it is better to know the facts rather than buying into the unfounded rumors. I don't apologize for being a PA fan anymore. And I respect the kids and coaches for all the work they put into being the best team they can be. And I hope coach Kelley stays there for the next several years.
Most of them have always gone there. I don't care if a team recruits or doesn't. Matters little to me. The arrogant attitude of fans and some players , along with some posters here have all contributed to the dislike towards PA , the blasting of music during the game , at times illegal, the songs played. Then for someone to say they outwork everyone. Simply an opinion and highly doubtful, unprovable, and another comment that will irk many. You're not present at other schools to know if they work as hard as others , much less harder. This attitude is what fuels it. Stop trying to act like they are average ordinary kids. Yeah there are some , no doubt , I've seen them. They hardly touch the field , mom and dad are the most verbal fans and little Johnny gets no meaningful snaps. It's the 2-4 D1 players on the team that put you over the top. Not saying it's illegal or cheating , just admit as the sensible PA posters have and go on. Stop with all the work harder when you honestly have no idea what most other schools do. I've no doubt they work hard. Most committed players do.
Ah Voice, you certainly have an ax to grind. I am sorry you have so much hate. But I understand. Like I said, I was once like you.
I'd be curious who the 2-4 division 1 players on this year's undefeated team are. Please identify them. Oh, that's right, they don't exist. Just some more made up "facts" to fuel your hate.
Quote from: the voice on December 20, 2015, 07:54:30 am
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 19, 2015, 11:52:45 pm
may I share?
I was raised in public schools. When I moved to LR, I used to got to PA games to root against them. I was a supreme hater. Then I had two girls and didn't want to send them to the public school options. I researched academics and settled on PA. It was a bitter pill to swallow. I didn't think I could ever pull for PA. you know, with all the recruiting and privileged kids.
Then I saw with my own eyes why they were good. They simply out worked everyone (I don't want to restart that debate) and the kids playing were mostly kids who had always gone to PA. None of the stuff I was "hating" about turned out to be true. These were good kids who worked their ever loving butts off, and survived under a very tough coach with extremely high expectations. Once I learned first hand why they were good, I was able to become a fan.
So I get it when other folks hate. You can see it on their faces when they come to PA for a game. I really do understand. I was once one of them. All I can say is it is better to know the facts rather than buying into the unfounded rumors. I don't apologize for being a PA fan anymore. And I respect the kids and coaches for all the work they put into being the best team they can be. And I hope coach Kelley stays there for the next several years.
Most of them have always gone there. I don't care if a team recruits or doesn't. Matters little to me. The arrogant attitude of fans and some players , along with some posters here have all contributed to the dislike towards PA , the blasting of music during the game , at times illegal, the songs played. Then for someone to say they outwork everyone. Simply an opinion and highly doubtful, unprovable, and another comment that will irk many. You're not present at other schools to know if they work as hard as others , much less harder. This attitude is what fuels it. Stop trying to act like they are average ordinary kids. Yeah there are some , no doubt , I've seen them. They hardly touch the field , mom and dad are the most verbal fans and little Johnny gets no meaningful snaps. It's the 2-4 D1 players on the team that put you over the top. Not saying it's illegal or cheating , just admit as the sensible PA posters have and go on. Stop with all the work harder when you honestly have no idea what most other schools do. I've no doubt they work hard. Most committed players do.
Pulaski Academy certainly works TACTICALLY and TECHNICALLY harder than most teams in the state. And they play SMARTER than most teams in the state.
Football is not nearly the emotional game that so many FANS think it is. It is all about 11 players on the field doing their job. REALLY!!!
I watch a LOT of Arkansas D2 football, from practice film to games. When I watch PA (which has been 3 or 4 times this year), I see a team where guys do their job EVERY PLAY. There is a high level of discipline.
I have no ax to grind , you are the one who is trying to convince others that it's simply hard work more than what anyone else does. I don't know the team players names. I'm speaking from others called facts on a previous thread. You were nothing like me , I'm not a hater , I simply get tired of people acting like its nothing but hard work separating PA from other schools, I certainly don't hate anyone, this run will end , sooner than some think. As for the d1 players it was in thread and it mentioned names and previous classes.
It's easy to stand back and say they hate us because we win. Wrong , most don't hate , they are against you for your brash comments, pounding a team to mercy rule when game was long decided, thinking it's perfectly acceptable to run score to 35 because that's when sportsmanship rule kicks in. To blare music out over the speakers at a game while destorying all pride a team has in the process of being up 40 points.
I have relatives in private schools right now and I support them completely. I do not hate PA , I certainly don't have the respect for them I did years ago. I understand your choice to send your daughters there. As for apologizing for being a fan , well not anymore, that says enough.
Keep looking down at us public schools who haven't figured out how to work as hard you guys. Someday maybe if try harder we can. My team is 2-1 against KK at pa , but we have to learn how to work harder to be able to be on that level. Maybe some day. Let me know next you're coming to practice to see if we aren't working as hard , I'd like to see you
Yes grond , there's much to be said about playing smart football and executing your job. Most teams don't do this as well. Yes it separates some. Emotion alone will not win you ball games. One extreme to the other will not. It's a combination of things, no argument from me on this. I've given them credit for things they do. Most teams don't win the majority of their games or conference titles. The teams that do work hard and execute much better. But they also have players as well.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 20, 2015, 06:42:25 am
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 11:04:34 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 19, 2015, 10:07:04 pm
I know of several posters on this board who have named kids that transferred in from another district to play football, but the posts always get deleted. The problem I have with a private school is that they try to act like boosters or others don't try to recruit some of the top athletes. I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen at public schools, because it does all of the time. I just don't see why private schools have to deny it.
Sure, kids come in from other districts and play football. The issue is why. For example, our best defensive lineman transferred in as a freshman or sophomore. His dad is a colonel in the Air Force and was transferred to LRAFB. Is that recruiting? Is it cheating?
I heard Kelley called Obama and had him transfer the dad there...maybe it's true or maybe it's a rumor. I believe it.
Now you're learning how powerful PA's recruiting influence really is!
Quote from: the voice on December 20, 2015, 09:42:13 am
I have no ax to grind , you are the one who is trying to convince others that it's simply hard work more than what anyone else does. I don't know the team players names. I'm speaking from others called facts on a previous thread. You were nothing like me , I'm not a hater , I simply get tired of people acting like its nothing but hard work separating PA from other schools, I certainly don't hate anyone, this run will end , sooner than some think. As for the d1 players it was in thread and it mentioned names and previous classes.
It's easy to stand back and say they hate us because we win. Wrong , most don't hate , they are against you for your brash comments, pounding a team to mercy rule when game was long decided, thinking it's perfectly acceptable to run score to 35 because that's when sportsmanship rule kicks in. To blare music out over the speakers at a game while destorying all pride a team has in the process of being up 40 points.
I have relatives in private schools right now and I support them completely. I do not hate PA , I certainly don't have the respect for them I did years ago. I understand your choice to send your daughters there. As for apologizing for being a fan , well not anymore, that says enough.
Keep looking down at us public schools who haven't figured out how to work as hard you guys. Someday maybe if try harder we can. My team is 2-1 against KK at pa , but we have to learn how to work harder to be able to be on that level. Maybe some day. Let me know next you're coming to practice to see if we aren't working as hard , I'd like to see you
You've mentioned the music twice but I don't know what that means. PA plays music before the game, at half and usually late in the 4th quarter. Did they play something offensive when you were there?
For those who are really interested, here is the AAA rule regarding financial aid:
"M. Tuition and Financial Aid Procedures. If tuition is charged, it must be paid by parent, legal
guardian, or other family member. If a parent, guardian, or other family member secures a loan for payment of tuition, it must remain an obligation of the parents, guardian, or other family member to repay the principal and interest in full with no exceptions. Financial aid will be allowed under the following conditions:
1. Financial aid may only be awarded on the basis of need. Proof of need must be filed in the AAA office on forms approved by the Executive Director. In order to determine the basis for need, all schools awarding financial aid shall use one of the following agencies: Financial Aid Independent Review, Financial Aid for School Tuition, Private School Aid Service, School and Student Service for Financial Aid, Tuition Aid Data Services, and FACTS Grant in Aid Agency. The use of any unapproved agency renders the student ineligible.
2. Any loan program, grant program, educational foundation, scholarship, or similar program that is established and/or administered, in whole or in part, by a school or official of a school is considered financial aid.
3. Schools shall remove any student from athletic eligibility whose accounts with the school are 60 days overdue.
All records pertaining to financial aid or tuition assistance shall be open to the AAA upon its request. Each school shall be responsible for securing necessary authorization to allow the AAA to review or audit such records.
N. In addition, nonpublic member schools providing financial assistance programs for athletes shall present to the Executive Director of the AAA by October 1 of each year the following documents: Financial Aid For Non-public School Athletes and Financial Aid Form Supplemental List. Nonpublic member schools must also submit to the AAA a Student-Athlete Financial Aid Report Form for fall sports by December 7 of each year and a Student-Athlete Financial Aid Report Form for winter and spring sports by May 8 of each year."
PA uses the School and Student Service for Financial Aid.
This rule is on page 45 of the AAA Handbook.
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
Quote from: Lionheart88 on December 19, 2015, 10:05:13 pm
So some third party with no connection to the school just tells the school "these 12 kids get discounts of 20%" and the school say "oh, ok, sure." and goes along with it? Why? That doesn't make any sense. The school has to have something to do with setting criteria. Why else would the school have them running their discount program?
I've looked at this some more and here's how I think it works.
I posted the AAA rule above. Financial assistance can be awarded based only on need. The school cannot determine the amount of need - the school must use one of the organizations designated by the AAA to make that determination. That organization determines the maximum that can be provided based on need. PA can then award the maximum amount, a lesser amount, or none at all.
And, PA must provide the AAA reports regarding athletes who receive financial aid.
I think the rule is designed to allow athletes to receive aid just like non athletes do, but to also insure that athletes are not treated more favorably than non athletes.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
The first sentence of the rule prohibits that.
Could it happen despite the rule? Sure it could. Is there any evidence that it is happening or has happened? Not to my knowledge.
And, if you or anyone else has evidence that PA is breaking or has broken the rule, please get it to me. I will personally report it to the AAA and will post the date and time when I will do so.
You seem to be an honest guy pa dad. I like that.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 20, 2015, 11:47:52 am
Quote from: the voice on December 20, 2015, 09:42:13 am
I have no ax to grind , you are the one who is trying to convince others that it's simply hard work more than what anyone else does. I don't know the team players names. I'm speaking from others called facts on a previous thread. You were nothing like me , I'm not a hater , I simply get tired of people acting like its nothing but hard work separating PA from other schools, I certainly don't hate anyone, this run will end , sooner than some think. As for the d1 players it was in thread and it mentioned names and previous classes.
It's easy to stand back and say they hate us because we win. Wrong , most don't hate , they are against you for your brash comments, pounding a team to mercy rule when game was long decided, thinking it's perfectly acceptable to run score to 35 because that's when sportsmanship rule kicks in. To blare music out over the speakers at a game while destorying all pride a team has in the process of being up 40 points.
I have relatives in private schools right now and I support them completely. I do not hate PA , I certainly don't have the respect for them I did years ago. I understand your choice to send your daughters there. As for apologizing for being a fan , well not anymore, that says enough.
Keep looking down at us public schools who haven't figured out how to work as hard you guys. Someday maybe if try harder we can. My team is 2-1 against KK at pa , but we have to learn how to work harder to be able to be on that level. Maybe some day. Let me know next you're coming to practice to see if we aren't working as hard , I'd like to see you
You've mentioned the music twice but I don't know what that means. PA plays music before the game, at half and usually late in the 4th quarter. Did they play something offensive when you were there?
Yeah they did , during the game , I know it was reported because it was against the rules to do it at those times. Perhaps they've changed since then , but they played it during the game .
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 01:41:20 pm
You seem to be an honest guy pa dad. I like that.
Thanks.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 20, 2015, 01:55:08 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 01:41:20 pm
You seem to be an honest guy pa dad. I like that.
Thanks.
Don't let him fool you. He always says what you want to hear. He's a politician, and not the Trump kind.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 20, 2015, 02:13:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 20, 2015, 01:55:08 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 01:41:20 pm
You seem to be an honest guy pa dad. I like that.
Thanks.
Don't let him fool you. He always says what you want to hear. He's a politician, and not the Trump kind.
I don't know if that's a compliment or a complaint.
Quote from: the voice on December 20, 2015, 01:54:08 pm
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 20, 2015, 11:47:52 am
Quote from: the voice on December 20, 2015, 09:42:13 am
I have no ax to grind , you are the one who is trying to convince others that it's simply hard work more than what anyone else does. I don't know the team players names. I'm speaking from others called facts on a previous thread. You were nothing like me , I'm not a hater , I simply get tired of people acting like its nothing but hard work separating PA from other schools, I certainly don't hate anyone, this run will end , sooner than some think. As for the d1 players it was in thread and it mentioned names and previous classes.
It's easy to stand back and say they hate us because we win. Wrong , most don't hate , they are against you for your brash comments, pounding a team to mercy rule when game was long decided, thinking it's perfectly acceptable to run score to 35 because that's when sportsmanship rule kicks in. To blare music out over the speakers at a game while destorying all pride a team has in the process of being up 40 points.
I have relatives in private schools right now and I support them completely. I do not hate PA , I certainly don't have the respect for them I did years ago. I understand your choice to send your daughters there. As for apologizing for being a fan , well not anymore, that says enough.
Keep looking down at us public schools who haven't figured out how to work as hard you guys. Someday maybe if try harder we can. My team is 2-1 against KK at pa , but we have to learn how to work harder to be able to be on that level. Maybe some day. Let me know next you're coming to practice to see if we aren't working as hard , I'd like to see you
You've mentioned the music twice but I don't know what that means. PA plays music before the game, at half and usually late in the 4th quarter. Did they play something offensive when you were there?
Yeah they did , during the game , I know it was reported because it was against the rules to do it at those times. Perhaps they've changed since then , but they played it during the game .
I have never heard music played over the PA system during a game. The PA band plays, but no recorded music is played over the speaker system.
Like I said , perhaps they got in trouble for it. I can assure you they did , the last time we were there.
Quote from: the voice on December 20, 2015, 02:28:11 pm
Like I said , perhaps they got in trouble for it. I can assure you they did , the last time we were there.
Maybe, but it must have been a long time ago.
I don't think music can be played over the PA system at any time during the game. The bands can play anytime as long as the ball is not inside the 20 yard line. That rule is routinely ignored by most bands.
2013 the last time y'all lost at home. Ask anyone from Morrilton who was there. It happened.
Quote from: the voice on December 20, 2015, 02:39:35 pm
2013 the last time y'all lost at home. Ask anyone from Morrilton who was there. It happened.
I'll take your word for it.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
That my whole point I don't like it's like salarship my point is that if a kids want to go to your school there family should be able to pay for them to attend that school
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
I really don't see a problem with that! I mean, why not? It is not the schools money. No different than borrowing the money. You just don't have to pay it back.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
It would not be an issue if there were an equivalent action available in the public school system - but there is not.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 20, 2015, 08:39:07 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
It would not be an issue if there were an equivalent action available in the public school system - but there is not.
How about getting to live rent free in a house in recruiting schools district?
Quote from: HF on December 20, 2015, 09:09:13 pm
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 20, 2015, 08:39:07 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
It would not be an issue if there were an equivalent action available in the public school system - but there is not.
How about getting to live rent free in a house in recruiting schools district?
We all know about the double wide's placed strategically in certain school districts for these purposes. Gives folks that "physical address".
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 09:20:26 pm
Quote from: HF on December 20, 2015, 09:09:13 pm
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 20, 2015, 08:39:07 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
It would not be an issue if there were an equivalent action available in the public school system - but there is not.
How about getting to live rent free in a house in recruiting schools district?
We all know about the double wide's placed strategically in certain school districts for these purposes. Gives folks that "physical address".
It doesn't matter as long as the Coach or some other school personnel had nothing to do with the arrangements.
Quote from: HF on December 20, 2015, 09:09:13 pm
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 20, 2015, 08:39:07 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
It would not be an issue if there were an equivalent action available in the public school system - but there is not.
How about getting to live rent free in a house in recruiting schools district?
You have obviously been up to the Missouri bootheel! [Northeast Arkansas]
There was a 'situation' last year where a highly talented northeast Arkansas basketball player showed up his senior year at a small Missouri high school.
Sorry guys, but part of the reason I don't get all hot & bothered about all the PA recruiting accusations is that we have all the drama up in northeast Arkansas without a private school. (Oops, sorry, Valley View THINKS they are a private school.)
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 20, 2015, 08:39:07 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
It would not be an issue if there were an equivalent action available in the public school system - but there is not.
What, you've never paid a kid's tuition at the local public school? :P
Quote from: Grond on December 20, 2015, 10:18:01 pm
Quote from: HF on December 20, 2015, 09:09:13 pm
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 20, 2015, 08:39:07 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 12:58:55 pm
What if a wealthy alum or booster opts to pay for a kid to attend there?
It would not be an issue if there were an equivalent action available in the public school system - but there is not.
How about getting to live rent free in a house in recruiting schools district?
You have obviously been up to the Missouri bootheel! [Northeast Arkansas]
There was a 'situation' last year where a highly talented northeast Arkansas basketball player showed up his senior year at a small Missouri high school.
Sorry guys, but part of the reason I don't get all hot & bothered about all the PA recruiting accusations is that we have all the drama up in northeast Arkansas without a private school. (Oops, sorry, Valley View THINKS they are a private school.)
Haha, I have not. But I have second hand information on a couple that skirt around those pesky transfer rules that way.
Ah, it's the music. I see now.
I was at that game and have no idea what you are talking about. I think you are just making up stuff. You know, because of all that hate.
Since you can't back up the "PA wins because they had 2-4 D1 players every year" comment, I will give you another chance. Please direct me to any comment where some PA fan on here down-talked the public schools. It's been my impression that folks on here have had honest and open discussions about why PA has been on a successful run. If you see that as down talking, then maybe the problem isn't with the PA posters. It may be, you know, all that hate.
Yellow cake you can stir it all you want. I'm done talking to you. I can get plenty of witnesses about the music. Doesn't matter you want to accuse of hate. You're narrow minded and probably never was a part of anything successful until you jumped on the bandwagon there. It wasn't just the music , it was several things. Doesn't matter anymore, this has gone far enough and wasted enough of my time. When will you be attending practice? It takes way more than catching a glimpse of practice while picking up a child from basketball practice and saying that's why they win. As for them playing together in 5th grade , let's do some talking on that as well Let me know we can discuss the rest there
Most PA posters and I have had good discussion, I could go and find names of the players other the two or three I know , to put them here thread gets deleted. But you're a new poster and unaware. Second you are one of the PA posters that most dislike. I'll leave the others alone they're bound to show up sooner or later.
So just let me know when and we can finish this discussion, yellow,
Being as you're practically accusing me of lying. We have much to discuss
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 21, 2015, 12:03:03 am
Ah, it's the music. I see now.
I was at that game and have no idea what you are talking about. I think you are just making up stuff. You know, because of all that hate.
Since you can't back up the "PA wins because they had 2-4 D1 players every year" comment, I will give you another chance. Please direct me to any comment where some PA fan on here down-talked the public schools. It's been my impression that folks on here have had honest and open discussions about why PA has been on a successful run. If you see that as down talking, then maybe the problem isn't with the PA posters. It may be, you know, all that hate.
And you can deny they have 2-4 d-1 players each year? Surely you can't.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 20, 2015, 02:18:39 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 20, 2015, 02:13:06 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 20, 2015, 01:55:08 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2015, 01:41:20 pm
You seem to be an honest guy pa dad. I like that.
Thanks.
Don't let him fool you. He always says what you want to hear. He's a politician, and not the Trump kind.
I don't know if that's a compliment or a complaint.
Lol, it might have been a mixture of both. But, not being the Trump kind can only be taken as a compliment.
Somebody asked about the most dominant programs, I think it was Grond. So, lets do it.
Greenwood and Junction City have 6 state championships since 01.
Bentonville and Charleston have 5.
Fayetteville, ElDo, and Nashville have 4.
Warren has 3.
These 8 teams have won 37 out of the 80 possible championships since 01. That's 8 teams out of the 210 schools that have won 46 percent of the championships. That would be 3 percent of the public schools that have won almost half of the state championships.
Add in the privates to that and you get 12 teams making up 64 percent of the titles. That's insane.
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:02:38 am
Somebody asked about the most dominant programs, I think it was Grond. So, lets do it.
Greenwood and Junction City have 6 state championships since 01.
Bentonville and Charleston have 5.
Fayetteville, ElDo, and Nashville have 4.
Warren has 3.
These 8 teams have won 37 out of the 80 possible championships since 01. That's 8 teams out of the 210 schools that have won 46 percent of the championships. That would be 3 percent of the public schools that have won almost half of the state championships.
Add in the privates to that and you get 12 teams making up 64 percent of the titles. That's insane.
Thank you. Interesting data, there are some successful programs!
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
Most kids at PA are in extracurricular activities, including sports. I would guess that percentage is in line with all students.
Where are the numbers you cite available?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
How are the "scholarships" defined? Are they based on need, or other factors?
Good work. +1 ;)
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
What is the enrollment for 7-12? I guess you could maybe just say what is the percentage on scholarship? Also maybe a PA person could say if they do partial ones as well. Just curious
I will answer some more questions later (guess I better work at least some today), but what is interesting to me, and to prove that there is something about a private school and athletes, is that PA produces d-1 players almost every single year. They have an enrollment of roughly 104 students per grade. They produce as many d-1 athletes, if not more, than a school like Bentonville (who is the most successful program in the largest classification). Bentonville has almost 1000 kids per grade level.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 10:12:23 pm
See my explanation above. I'll be interested to see what information you get. I believe that about 90% of students who get financial assistance at PA do not participate in athletics.
This was a little off, wouldn't you say?
This scenario: A junior in some high school in the state. Doesn't matter which one, just that they haven't been successful in the last 10 years, so, he, and his father, are afraid he won't get noticed by colleges at the next level. He is 6 feet 4 inches tall and weighs about 220. Currently playing QB. He had a decent year but his team went 2-8 and didn't make the playoffs. In talking with other football parents he laments this to them. One suggests, "he ought to go to (such and such_) private school. They have won several state championships and several of their players went on to play at the D1 level. So his Dad talks to the principal of that school and he enrolls there. He pays his own way. Anything wrong with this? The only thing I see is, he can't do that at any public school in the state. This is what is bad about the private school vs. the public. By the way, this is a fictitious player, so I'm not asking for a friend.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 21, 2015, 11:14:11 am
This scenario: A junior in some high school in the state. Doesn't matter which one, just that they haven't been successful in the last 10 years, so, he, and his father, are afraid he won't get noticed by colleges at the next level. He is 6 feet 4 inches tall and weighs about 220. Currently playing QB. He had a decent year but his team went 2-8 and didn't make the playoffs. In talking with other football parents he laments this to them. One suggests, "he ought to go to (such and such_) private school. They have won several state championships and several of their players went on to play at the D1 level. So his Dad talks to the principal of that school and he enrolls there. He pays his own way. Anything wrong with this? The only thing I see is, he can't do that at any public school in the state. This is what is bad about the private school vs. the public. By the way, this is a fictitious player, so I'm not asking for a friend.
He can't do that at the private school unless he moves within their radius, correct? Otherwise, he would have to sit out one full calendar year.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 21, 2015, 11:14:11 am
This scenario: A junior in some high school in the state. Doesn't matter which one, just that they haven't been successful in the last 10 years, so, he, and his father, are afraid he won't get noticed by colleges at the next level. He is 6 feet 4 inches tall and weighs about 220. Currently playing QB. He had a decent year but his team went 2-8 and didn't make the playoffs. In talking with other football parents he laments this to them. One suggests, "he ought to go to (such and such_) private school. They have won several state championships and several of their players went on to play at the D1 level. So his Dad talks to the principal of that school and he enrolls there. He pays his own way. Anything wrong with this? The only thing I see is, he can't do that at any public school in the state. This is what is bad about the private school vs. the public. By the way, this is a fictitious player, so I'm not asking for a friend.
It is a lot EASIER to move kids from
public school to public school than you make it sound in your statement. Let me run through the various examples that happen in northeast Arkansas.
SCHOOL CHOICE
For a time, the Greene County Tech football and basketball programs were doing pretty well. The result was an exodus of players from Paragould to GCT. (And we now have GCT band kids transferring to Paragould because of the accomplishments of the Paragould Pride band.)
LIVE WITH MOM, DAD, ...... OR GRANDMA
If you think people flock to winning programs, then just watch them RUN from losing football programs!
At Paragould, we had a Batesville kid that spent 1 week with Paragould football, and went back to live with Grandma in Batesville! (I don't blame him.)
We had our second best receiver decide he was fed up, and transferred to Brookland mid-season. This was done by transferring the kid's address to his mother (parents divorced), who lived in Brookland (4A school).
Parents are going to get their kids where they want them.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 11:11:38 am
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 10:12:23 pm
See my explanation above. I'll be interested to see what information you get. I believe that about 90% of students who get financial assistance at PA do not participate in athletics.
This was a little off, wouldn't you say?
I was way off.
I'd like to see the numbers broken down by sport. I still think that very few football players receive financial aid. But, I may be way off on that too.
FWIW: There is / are also M to M transfers and magnet school transfers available in the public schools.
Recruitment, in high school? Surely not!
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
Do your numbers break it down by grade and by sport? I'd really like to see the number of football players who receive financial aid.
Quote from: Grond on December 21, 2015, 09:39:59 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
How are the "scholarships" defined? Are they based on need, or other factors?
Good work. +1 ;)
All scholarships are based on need. And I assume scholarship means any financial assistance.
Quote from: the voice on December 21, 2015, 09:42:22 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
What is the enrollment for 7-12? I guess you could maybe just say what is the percentage on scholarship? Also maybe a PA person could say if they do partial ones as well. Just curious
As I understand it, a scholarship is defined as any financial aid. PA does partial scholarships, i.e., part of the tuition is waived. And PA cannot, under AAA rules, give a student more financial aid than is warranted by the student's family's finances. That need is determined by a third party. The third party must come from a list furnished by the AAA.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2015, 12:40:21 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 21, 2015, 09:42:22 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
What is the enrollment for 7-12? I guess you could maybe just say what is the percentage on scholarship? Also maybe a PA person could say if they do partial ones as well. Just curious
As I understand it, a scholarship is defined as any financial aid. PA does partial scholarships, i.e., part of the tuition is waived. And PA cannot, under AAA rules, give a student more financial aid than is warranted by the student's family's finances. That need is determined by a third party. The third party must come from a list furnished by the AAA.
I kinda figured, thanks
The school choice will affect public schools in the coming years as it becomes more popular. I hope it doesn't turn into a mess with kids leaving because of differences in coaches. If that starts it could get ugly.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2015, 12:40:21 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 21, 2015, 09:42:22 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
What is the enrollment for 7-12? I guess you could maybe just say what is the percentage on scholarship? Also maybe a PA person could say if they do partial ones as well. Just curious
As I understand it, a scholarship is defined as any financial aid. PA does partial scholarships, i.e., part of the tuition is waived. And PA cannot, under AAA rules, give a student more financial aid than is warranted by the student's family's finances. That need is determined by a third party. The third party must come from a list furnished by the AAA.
Who fills out the paperwork to be submitted to the third party? More than one way to skin a cat...
Quote from: Bayou Bully on December 21, 2015, 03:25:10 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2015, 12:40:21 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 21, 2015, 09:42:22 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
What is the enrollment for 7-12? I guess you could maybe just say what is the percentage on scholarship? Also maybe a PA person could say if they do partial ones as well. Just curious
As I understand it, a scholarship is defined as any financial aid. PA does partial scholarships, i.e., part of the tuition is waived. And PA cannot, under AAA rules, give a student more financial aid than is warranted by the student's family's finances. That need is determined by a third party. The third party must come from a list furnished by the AAA.
Who fills out the paperwork to be submitted to the third party? More than one way to skin a cat...
I assume the parents furnish the financial information upon which the decision is made. I don't know who else could do that. I also assume that the third party requires verification of income by looking at tax returns, etc. But, I don't know for sure how it is done.
So you assume the school in no way helps this process? Seems very unlikely since they benefit financially.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2015, 12:33:18 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
Do your numbers break it down by grade and by sport? I'd really like to see the number of football players who receive financial aid.
The numbers are broken down by grade, but not by sport, unfortunately. I was interested in that as well.
Also, we mentioned he academic standards making it harder to get in. Out of the 52 student applications, 46 were accepted and 6 were denied admission.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 04:34:51 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2015, 12:33:18 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
Do your numbers break it down by grade and by sport? I'd really like to see the number of football players who receive financial aid.
The numbers are broken down by grade, but not by sport, unfortunately. I was interested in that as well.
Also, we mentioned he academic standards making it harder to get in. Out of the 52 student applications, 46 were accepted and 6 were denied admission.
Can you give us the numbers by grade?
I'm curious about the 52 applications. I think PA gets many more than that each year unless those numbers are just for grades 7-12.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
I've thought about this because these numbers are greater than I expected.
At dinner tonight, my wife and I named 25 athletes whose parents are teachers at PA. Of course, all of them get a break on tuition and thus get financial aid. There are probably others we're not aware of.
PA also gives a discount to parents who have more than one student at PA. We can name 10 more athletes who fall in that category. Again, there are probably others we are not aware of.
So, we can account for 35 of the 86 who get discounts unrelated to financial need. There are probably more than that.
If you exclude those, the number of students in grades 7-12 who receive financial aid and play sports is about 50-less than 10 per grade. And, while we don't have the numbers by sport played, I'd bet no more than 2-3 per grade play football.
Those numbers are about what I expected.
Quote from: Grond on December 21, 2015, 09:34:58 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:02:38 am
Somebody asked about the most dominant programs, I think it was Grond. So, lets do it.
Greenwood and Junction City have 6 state championships since 01.
Bentonville and Charleston have 5.
Fayetteville, ElDo, and Nashville have 4.
Warren has 3.
These 8 teams have won 37 out of the 80 possible championships since 01. That's 8 teams out of the 210 schools that have won 46 percent of the championships. That would be 3 percent of the public schools that have won almost half of the state championships.
Add in the privates to that and you get 12 teams making up 64 percent of the titles. That's insane.
[/u][/b]
Thank you. Interesting data, there are some successful programs!
This information seems to have been lost in the whole "PA recruiting" discussion. So I am bringing it back! >:(
How come it is ok for these public school programs to be dominant for YEARS?
I have a question for the serious thinkers on this board. Those who can't think logically are not invited.
I have admitted many times that private schools have advantages.
Catholic, CAC, LRC, and ECS are all private. All are in Little Rock and all draw from the same pool of students.
PA has won 5 state championships since 2003. I haven't researched it, but I can't remember any other Little Rock private school winning one since 2003. Why not?
One of the arguments for PA's success is location. That same argument applies to all LR private schools.
Another argument for PA's success is that players want to attend a school which is successful. That's a fair argument. But, why is PA successful when other LR private schools are not?
Before 2003, PA had never won a state championship. Kelley became head coach in 2003. Can you name any other factor that has changed since 2003 which has contributed to PA's success?
My point is two-fold. One, being a private school does not explain PA's success. If so, all LR private schools would be successful. Two, PA was not successful until Kelley became the head coach. Ergo, PA's success is largely attributable to Kelley.
If you disagree, please tell me why.
Quote from: Grond on December 21, 2015, 10:04:05 pm
Quote from: Grond on December 21, 2015, 09:34:58 am
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:02:38 am
Somebody asked about the most dominant programs, I think it was Grond. So, lets do it.
Greenwood and Junction City have 6 state championships since 01.
Bentonville and Charleston have 5.
Fayetteville, ElDo, and Nashville have 4.
Warren has 3.
These 8 teams have won 37 out of the 80 possible championships since 01. That's 8 teams out of the 210 schools that have won 46 percent of the championships. That would be 3 percent of the public schools that have won almost half of the state championships.
Add in the privates to that and you get 12 teams making up 64 percent of the titles. That's insane.
[/u][/b]
Thank you. Interesting data, there are some successful programs!
This information seems to have been lost in the whole "PA recruiting" discussion. So I am bringing it back! >:(
How come it is ok for these public school programs to be dominant for YEARS?
It's ok because those schools are not private.
A serious analysis of those programs reveals one common denominator- great coaches. I think the one factor that explains success more than any other is great coaching. Even great athletes will not win without good coaching.
I still think Darrel Royal said it best. He said, of Bear Bryant, that "he can take his'n and beat your'n or he can take your'n and beat his'n." I think he was right.
There is a post on the 3A board from a court decision that is the best and most comprehensive explanation of the advantages of private schools that I have seen. It is in the "hail to the private schools" thread. For those who want to argue against private schools, it is a gold mine.
I'm not sure I can give you what you want. I've been thinking the last few days about things on here. It certainly seems at times it has become bash PA board and I've probably contributed some in response to some of the posters I've let get under my skin. You have acknowledged advantages and other things. So from this point on I will try and refrain from arguing points that have already been discussed.
I think in answer to your question is the coach helped no doubt. He instilled a belief in the plan they the players run. The attitude changed and success followed , it built and gained momentum. While I take nothing away from his success l also think it's the perfect storm , the location which allows so many the opportunity to attend , if they qualify. If you look around the state there are examples of this at other locations. Greenwood was started by coach peacock who took hard working dedicated players and introduced a system that was new and fit them perfectly. He moved on to another job, and his replacement wasn't as good a fit but then along came jones as the song goes. He took a proud program to another level. It was though coach peacock who started greenwood winning, not punting , spread hurry up offense. They won and won big. The winning spread and greenwood once a doormat, became a winner year in and out. Billy Dawson turned Siloam Springs into a winner , left for Nashville and it rose to prominence, he was successful though not the same when he left , point is sometimes l think the seed is planted and it grows , many things determine if a program will continue to flourish or revert back. I again take nothing from the job KK has done there. It's not his fault that many great players choose to attend there , yes it's an advantage, but all can't attend that want to. I think the publicity the school received only aided in it. So ultimately it boils down to him, but it certainly helps with the other things as well. Look at Wynne , coach hill came in not after the general but after his replacement, a once powerhouse program had missed playoffs and was struggling to win games. The potential was there , it took someone to get it back. Now even though they haven't won a title they are talked about with the best all the time on these boards.
So I think much credit is due to the coach for getting it going. The help he has gotten through the years from the seed he planted has only helped.
This post is not to disparage any of the coaches. All the teams named have great coaches and , of course, that is needed. But, Eldo, Junction City, Warren and Nashville all seem to have a never-ending supply of athletes. Charleston won three of their championships with Ty Story there. After he left they have not done as well. It used to be said that all the Arkadelphia Badgers had to do was pull the school bus up to the gym, take the players to the game, roll the football out on the field and they would win. lol. I think the same could be said of Nashville. When you have the numbers of players Fayetteville and Bentonville have every year, it's pretty easy to pick out 22 guys that are above average. And of course, school choice up there causes those other schools like Springdale to lose their good players to the bigger, better schools. Greenwood is just a matter of a coach making better players out of what he has. So, having better athletes year after year makes coaches and schools perform better.
Quote from: the voice on December 21, 2015, 10:40:32 pm
I'm not sure I can give you what you want. I've been thinking the last few days about things on here. It certainly seems at times it has become bash PA board and I've probably contributed some in response to some of the posters I've let get under my skin. You have acknowledged advantages and other things. So from this point on I will try and refrain from arguing points that have already been discussed.
I think in answer to your question is the coach helped no doubt. He instilled a belief in the plan they the players run. The attitude changed and success followed , it built and gained momentum. While I take nothing away from his success l also think it's the perfect storm , the location which allows so many the opportunity to attend , if they qualify. If you look around the state there are examples of this at other locations. Greenwood was started by coach peacock who took hard working dedicated players and introduced a system that was new and fit them perfectly. He moved on to another job, and his replacement wasn't as good a fit but then along came jones as the song goes. He took a proud program to another level. It was though coach peacock who started greenwood winning, not punting , spread hurry up offense. They won and won big. The winning spread and greenwood once a doormat, became a winner year in and out. Billy Dawson turned Siloam Springs into a winner , left for Nashville and it rose to prominence, he was successful though not the same when he left , point is sometimes l think the seed is planted and it grows , many things determine if a program will continue to flourish or revert back. I again take nothing from the job KK has done there. It's not his fault that many great players choose to attend there , yes it's an advantage, but all can't attend that want to. I think the publicity the school received only aided in it. So ultimately it boils down to him, but it certainly helps with the other things as well. Look at Wynne , coach hill came in not after the general but after his replacement, a once powerhouse program had missed playoffs and was struggling to win games. The potential was there , it took someone to get it back. Now even though they haven't won a title they are talked about with the best all the time on these boards.
So I think much credit is due to the coach for getting it going. The help he has gotten through the years from the seed he planted has only helped.
Good analysis. I agree that many factors determine success. But, I still think coaching is the most important. I read your post to agree with that. If I'm reading you right, I agree with you.
Dad, I think that is what it pretty much boils down to. KK is the engine running the machine. The success won't be the same when he leaves. All those other factors like the hard work, the excellent coaching, the innovation, the kids wanting to play for a winning program and on and on. It starts with KK.
PA is on a run. It won't last forever. That's why I think the discussions about moving them to 6A and whatnot is ridiculous. Come stop them, like Batesville, Morrilton, Shiloh and others have done in the past. I assure you that when those kids talk about their state championships, they will never fail to mention they beat PA on the way there. It's good to have someone like PA in the division.
Plus, Voice needs someone to hate.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 21, 2015, 10:43:56 pm
This post is not to disparage any of the coaches. All the teams named have great coaches and , of course, that is needed. But, Eldo, Junction City, Warren and Nashville all seem to have a never-ending supply of athletes. Charleston won three of their championships with Ty Story there. After he left they have not done as well. It used to be said that all the Arkadelphia Badgers had to do was pull the school bus up to the gym, take the players to the game, roll the football out on the field and they would win. lol. I think the same could be said of Nashville. When you have the numbers of players Fayetteville and Bentonville have every year, it's pretty easy to pick out 22 guys that are above average. And of course, school choice up there causes those other schools like Springdale to lose their good players to the bigger, better schools. Greenwood is just a matter of a coach making better players out of what he has. So, having better athletes year after year makes coaches and schools perform better.
There is no question that good athletes are essential to a winning program. But, I still maintain that a good coach with average athletes will beat a poor coach with great athletes. Not always, but more times than not.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 21, 2015, 10:46:28 pm
Dad, I think that is what it pretty much boils down to. KK is the engine running the machine. The success won't be the same when he leaves. All those other factors like the hard work, the excellent coaching, the innovation, the kids wanting to play for a winning program and on and on. It starts with KK.
PA is on a run. It won't last forever. That's why I think the discussions about moving them to 6A and whatnot is ridiculous. Come stop them, like Batesville, Morrilton, Shiloh and others have done in the past. I assure you that when those kids talk about their state championships, they will never fail to mention they beat PA on the way there. It's good to have someone like PA in the division.
Plus, Voice needs someone to hate.
I agree with most of what you say. My disagreement is moving up to 6A. I think PA could compete there and the games would be much more competitive. I'm all for it.
Voice, I am needling you. No harm intended. I apologize.
For what it's worth, the interception return by the Morrilton kid in the playoffs a few years ago was one of the most awesome returns ever. So good in fact I chased him down after the game to tell him how awesome it was. He and a couple of others said they were looking for Tyler Colquitt to tell him he was the best they had ever played against. The Morrilton kids shot up on my favorite chart after that. They were showing class and sportsmanship.
I think you are a Morrilton fan. If not, disregard the above. I will just assume you hate them, too. :):):):):)
I think the numbers catch up way too far in 6A. I saw several 6A teams this year. Granted, all were playoff teams and included Greenwood and PB, but I don't think we have the bodies and depth to survive. The difference between those teams and the 7A is minuscule, at least from what I saw. 300 students versus 700-900. The math just catches up, and badly.
In my humble opinion.
By the way, I want to thank MDX for starting this thread the way he did. I think this has been the best discussion of private versus public I have seen, and I think that's because MDX started it with facts, not assumptions or emotions. So, kudos to MDX.
I second that emotion. :)
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 21, 2015, 11:01:01 pm
I think the numbers catch up way too far in 6A. I saw several 6A teams this year. Granted, all were playoff teams and included Greenwood and PB, but I don't think we have the bodies and depth to survive. The difference between those teams and the 7A is minuscule, at least from what I saw. 300 students versus 700-900. The math just catches up, and badly.
In my humble opinion.
Many folks make the same argument. But, when PA has played 6A or 7A teams they have always competed well.
PA was very young this year. I honestly thought they would struggle this year. But, they beat a 6A Texas powerhouse.
I'd just like to see how PA would fair against stiffer competition. I just see no harm in trying.
I am indeed a devil dog. It's taken a long time to get things in Morrilton to the point coach mcnabb and Watson have gotten them to. On average the 2014 season should most times be about as bad as it gets there. We have players more often than not who are gifted. We went through years of underachieving and were called out for being quitters and lazy. The coach definitely has a hand in the success of a program.
As for the other part of the question by dad about why aren't others in the area successful, I think a big name coach or successful runs by current ones will pull others into their programs, I do think it'll take more than a year or two to do so, not a run here or there. Central a few years ago had that distinction. Football has turned into a year round commitment nowadays, the players that love it live at the field house, which good coaches have turned into a home away from home, made it a welcome environment that isn't just about hard work but a family atmosphere. My son hasn't had a summer off since 7th grade. He wouldn't have it any other way.
So when that atmosphere happens at one if those little rock schools mentioned, you'll see a change I think.
How many kids for PA play both ways? If it's not many, I don't think a lack of depth would be a big problem. Big numbers on the sideline look good, and quality depth is important, but only 11 of those guys can play at a time. The only problem I'd see PA having would be the grind of a full season playing against 6A/7A teams. At that point depth would be more important if there are any injuries.
The movement to 6a by PA currently would be a good fit , it would provide more competitive games for them. However if they petitioned up , it would surely be granted its my understanding that greenwood would return being the smallest 6a school, so I'm not sure things would be much different. But say they did move up , if they weren't able to compete they could next cycle not renew the petition to play 6a
Quote from: the voice on December 21, 2015, 11:16:03 pm
I am indeed a devil dog. It's taken a long time to get things in Morrilton to the point coach mcnabb and Watson have gotten them to. On average the 2014 season should most times be about as bad as it gets there. We have players more often than not who are gifted. We went through years of underachieving and were called out for being quitters and lazy. The coach definitely has a hand in the success of a program.
As for the other part of the question by dad about why aren't others in the area successful, I think a big name coach or successful runs by current ones will pull others into their programs, I do think it'll take more than a year or two to do so, not a run here or there. Central a few years ago had that distinction. Football has turned into a year round commitment nowadays, the players that love it live at the field house, which good coaches have turned into a home away from home, made it a welcome environment that isn't just about hard work but a family atmosphere. My son hasn't had a summer off since 7th grade. He wouldn't have it any other way.
So when that atmosphere happens at one if those little rock schools mentioned, you'll see a change I think.
I agree. I have heard that the McClellan coaches had to make the players go home this year because the players were so dedicated that they just refused to leave. That's great coaching which inspires great dedication. That's what it takes to make a successful program.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on December 21, 2015, 11:16:54 pm
How many kids for PA play both ways? If it's not many, I don't think a lack of depth would be a big problem. Big numbers on the sideline look good, and quality depth is important, but only 11 of those guys can play at a time. The only problem I'd see PA having would be the grind of a full season playing against 6A/7A teams. At that point depth would be more important if there are any injuries.
No PA players play both ways except in special situations, such as third and long or third and short.
And, you may be right about the grind of a season. But, I'd still like to see how PA stacks up.
Quote from: the voice on December 21, 2015, 11:19:57 pm
The movement to 6a by PA currently would be a good fit , it would provide more competitive games for them. However if they petitioned up , it would surely be granted its my understanding that greenwood would return being the smallest 6a school, so I'm not sure things would be much different. But say they did move up , if they weren't able to compete they could next cycle not renew the petition to play 6a
Could PA petition up? I just don't know. I know they petitioned up to 5A. But, if they petitioned to move up and GW objected, what would happen?
It's the grind to which I refer. Usually the "next" is a big drop off, and likely a 10th grader who wouldn't be ready for someone like Beasley from PB coming at him. I don't think we'd survive the grind.
I certainly can't say for sure , but I don't think they'd have much to say. Last cycle we missed going to 4a by two students, if Shiloh had stayed in 5a we would have went to 4a, our administration didn't want to but I don't think they could've stopped it.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 21, 2015, 11:30:11 pm
It's the grind to which I refer. Usually the "next" is a big drop off, and likely a 10th grader who wouldn't be ready for someone like Beasley from PB coming at him. I don't think we'd survive the grind.
Although I'm certainly not speaking for all 5a schools, that's the issue we face at Morrilton. Our numbers are very small compared to others. Especially greenbrier and Vilonia.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 21, 2015, 11:30:11 pm
It's the grind to which I refer. Usually the "next" is a big drop off, and likely a 10th grader who wouldn't be ready for someone like Beasley from PB coming at him. I don't think we'd survive the grind.
The only way to find out is to try it. I'd like to do that.
If anyone is interested, here are the Reclassification 2016-18 numbers for reference. Though I don't know all the private schools, the ones I know all seem to be playing a conference size up. For instance, Catholic/St Mary, LRCA, PA, SC, CAC, etc.
http://members.ahsaa.org/public/userfiles/Admin/2016-18_Classification_Numbers.pdf
Quote from: Go Postal on December 22, 2015, 07:00:24 am
If anyone is interested, here are the Reclassification 2016-18 numbers for reference. Though I don't know all the private schools, the ones I know all seem to be playing a conference size up. For instance, Catholic/St Mary, LRCA, PA, SC, CAC, etc.
http://members.ahsaa.org/public/userfiles/Admin/2016-18_Classification_Numbers.pdf
They're automatically placed into the classification above where they'd be as a public school. They can petition to play even higher. In the new numbers, PA is 4A size, which means as a private school they automatically go into 5A. They can petition to go 6A if they choose.
According to that chart Morrilton is the smallest still other than PA and LRC, Greenwood smallest 6a , although Maumelle is knocking at the door.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2015, 10:13:08 pm
I have a question for the serious thinkers on this board. Those who can't think logically are not invited.
I have admitted many times that private schools have advantages.
Catholic, CAC, LRC, and ECS are all private. All are in Little Rock and all draw from the same pool of students.
PA has won 5 state championships since 2003. I haven't researched it, but I can't remember any other Little Rock private school winning one since 2003. Why not?
One of the arguments for PA's success is location. That same argument applies to all LR private schools.
Another argument for PA's success is that players want to attend a school which is successful. That's a fair argument. But, why is PA successful when other LR private schools are not?
Before 2003, PA had never won a state championship. Kelley became head coach in 2003. Can you name any other factor that has changed since 2003 which has contributed to PA's success?
My point is two-fold. One, being a private school does not explain PA's success. If so, all LR private schools would be successful. Two, PA was not successful until Kelley became the head coach. Ergo, PA's success is largely attributable to Kelley.
If you disagree, please tell me why.
Why did you try to disqualify me with the second sentence?
First, I'll address the other private schools in the Little Rock area. You say they aren't as dominant as PA, and I agree, but only in football. The other schools tend to be dominant in other sports. CAC and LRC have been great at soccer. The parents will send their kids to the school that has a good program in the specific sport. Why do you think Hatcher goes to PA and his sisters went to CAC? His sisters won soccer and basketball championships at CAC and he wins football ones at PA. So, depending on the sport, that pool of students still does give those schools an advantage.
You can certainly contribute some success to Kelley, he deserves it. You can also bet that plenty of other coaches would absolutely excel at PA, where I'm not so sure Kelley would excel at other schools. PA was 12-1 in 2001 and 9-3 in 2002. They were a good team when Kelley took over.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2015, 08:20:54 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
I've thought about this because these numbers are greater than I expected.
At dinner tonight, my wife and I named 25 athletes whose parents are teachers at PA. Of course, all of them get a break on tuition and thus get financial aid. There are probably others we're not aware of.
PA also gives a discount to parents who have more than one student at PA. We can name 10 more athletes who fall in that category. Again, there are probably others we are not aware of.
So, we can account for 35 of the 86 who get discounts unrelated to financial need. There are probably more than that.
If you exclude those, the number of students in grades 7-12 who receive financial aid and play sports is about 50-less than 10 per grade. And, while we don't have the numbers by sport played, I'd bet no more than 2-3 per grade play football.
Those numbers are about what I expected.
Okay, here. I'm going to help you out because you've been worrying non stop about this. First, the number of students who receive financial aid all had to qualify for it through the third party, so it's very unlikely that it included the kids who automatically receive half rate tuition or the discount for siblings.
Now, here is where I wanted to mess with you guys. I posted those numbers yesterday to see who all thought it was odd that over 60 percent of financial assistance went to kids who participated in an extra curricular activity. But, when you take the entire enrollment, 75 percent of kids who attend PA participate in an extracurricular activity. The numbers are exactly what the should be and aren't disproportionate at all. There are 627 in grades 7-12 and 467 participate in something. So, 86 out of 132 getting assistance isn't a big deal. I just wanted to see if anyone jumped on the PA hate wagon lol. Sorry for keeping you up all night PA Dad.
Also, it's interesting that roughly 15 kids per grade receive financial assistance except for the Junior and Sophomore class. The Junior class has around 25 and the Soph had around 10. I wonder why there is a large difference in those two classes and not any of the others?
Since most of this thread has been, as a result of participation from PAdad, referring many times to PA, I would like to share an observation about why I think PA is successful. I watched PA at a 7 on 7 this past summer at OBU. Going against some bigger classifications who had Dbacks who were pretty good, PA's receivers, ran very precise routes and the scheme was such, that the Dbacks many times were confused about who to defend. This confusion allowed receivers to get open, and, if the quarterback had 4 to 5 seconds to throw, which he usually did, there was a completion. The precision was the key. Never a missed route (that I saw), always full speed. The QB would always, it seemed, would find an open man. If a pass was incomplete it was a dropped ball or overthrown. That is the strength of their offense. They would not be as successful as a running team. This preciseness, ability to create confusion, never slacking on a play, decent QB is the reason for their success.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 08:15:17 am
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2015, 08:20:54 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2015, 09:32:09 am
PA awarded 132 scholarships in grades 7-12. Out of those, 86 play sports.
I've thought about this because these numbers are greater than I expected.
At dinner tonight, my wife and I named 25 athletes whose parents are teachers at PA. Of course, all of them get a break on tuition and thus get financial aid. There are probably others we're not aware of.
PA also gives a discount to parents who have more than one student at PA. We can name 10 more athletes who fall in that category. Again, there are probably others we are not aware of.
So, we can account for 35 of the 86 who get discounts unrelated to financial need. There are probably more than that.
If you exclude those, the number of students in grades 7-12 who receive financial aid and play sports is about 50-less than 10 per grade. And, while we don't have the numbers by sport played, I'd bet no more than 2-3 per grade play football.
Those numbers are about what I expected.
Okay, here. I'm going to help you out because you've been worrying non stop about this. First, the number of students who receive financial aid all had to qualify for it through the third party, so it's very unlikely that it included the kids who automatically receive half rate tuition or the discount for siblings.
Now, here is where I wanted to mess with you guys. I posted those numbers yesterday to see who all thought it was odd that over 60 percent of financial assistance went to kids who participated in an extra curricular activity. But, when you take the entire enrollment, 75 percent of kids who attend PA participate in an extracurricular activity. The numbers are exactly what the should be and aren't disproportionate at all. There are 627 in grades 7-12 and 467 participate in something. So, 86 out of 132 getting assistance isn't a big deal. I just wanted to see if anyone jumped on the PA hate wagon lol. Sorry for keeping you up all night PA Dad.
I'm going to send you a bill for the sleeping pills I had to take!
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 22, 2015, 09:38:51 am
Since most of this thread has been, as a result of participation from PAdad, referring many times to PA, I would like to share an observation about why I think PA is successful. I watched PA at a 7 on 7 this past summer at OBU. Going against some bigger classifications who had Dbacks who were pretty good, PA's receivers, ran very precise routes and the scheme was such, that the Dbacks many times were confused about who to defend. This confusion allowed receivers to get open, and, if the quarterback had 4 to 5 seconds to throw, which he usually did, there was a completion. The precision was the key. Never a missed route (that I saw), always full speed. The QB would always, it seemed, would find an open man. If a pass was incomplete it was a dropped ball or overthrown. That is the strength of their offense. They would not be as successful as a running team. This preciseness, ability to create confusion, never slacking on a play, decent QB is the reason for their success.
In a similar manner, I see the same type of play with PA's offensive and defensive lines. Stepping with the correct foot, maintaining the correct positioning during pass blocking.
Sadly, in the 5A East, there are only two schools that do a really good job of blocking technique: Batesville, and (recently) Blytheville.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 08:11:21 am
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2015, 10:13:08 pm
I have a question for the serious thinkers on this board. Those who can't think logically are not invited.
I have admitted many times that private schools have advantages.
Catholic, CAC, LRC, and ECS are all private. All are in Little Rock and all draw from the same pool of students.
PA has won 5 state championships since 2003. I haven't researched it, but I can't remember any other Little Rock private school winning one since 2003. Why not?
One of the arguments for PA's success is location. That same argument applies to all LR private schools.
Another argument for PA's success is that players want to attend a school which is successful. That's a fair argument. But, why is PA successful when other LR private schools are not?
Before 2003, PA had never won a state championship. Kelley became head coach in 2003. Can you name any other factor that has changed since 2003 which has contributed to PA's success?
My point is two-fold. One, being a private school does not explain PA's success. If so, all LR private schools would be successful. Two, PA was not successful until Kelley became the head coach. Ergo, PA's success is largely attributable to Kelley.
If you disagree, please tell me why.
Why did you try to disqualify me with the second sentence?
First, I'll address the other private schools in the Little Rock area. You say they aren't as dominant as PA, and I agree, but only in football. The other schools tend to be dominant in other sports. CAC and LRC have been great at soccer. The parents will send their kids to the school that has a good program in the specific sport. Why do you think Hatcher goes to PA and his sisters went to CAC? His sisters won soccer and basketball championships at CAC and he wins football ones at PA. So, depending on the sport, that pool of students still does give those schools an advantage.
You can certainly contribute some success to Kelley, he deserves it. You can also bet that plenty of other coaches would absolutely excel at PA, where I'm not so sure Kelley would excel at other schools. PA was 12-1 in 2001 and 9-3 in 2002. They were a good team when Kelley took over.
Kelley was the offensive coordinator in 2001 and 2002.
I hope your theory about other coaches excelling at PA doesn't get tested, but I think it might in the near future. It will be interesting to see if that happens.
Quote from: Grond on December 22, 2015, 10:32:22 am
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 22, 2015, 09:38:51 am
Since most of this thread has been, as a result of participation from PAdad, referring many times to PA, I would like to share an observation about why I think PA is successful. I watched PA at a 7 on 7 this past summer at OBU. Going against some bigger classifications who had Dbacks who were pretty good, PA's receivers, ran very precise routes and the scheme was such, that the Dbacks many times were confused about who to defend. This confusion allowed receivers to get open, and, if the quarterback had 4 to 5 seconds to throw, which he usually did, there was a completion. The precision was the key. Never a missed route (that I saw), always full speed. The QB would always, it seemed, would find an open man. If a pass was incomplete it was a dropped ball or overthrown. That is the strength of their offense. They would not be as successful as a running team. This preciseness, ability to create confusion, never slacking on a play, decent QB is the reason for their success.
In a similar manner, I see the same type of play with PA's offensive and defensive lines. Stepping with the correct foot, maintaining the correct positioning during pass blocking.
Sadly, in the 5A East, there are only two schools that do a really good job of blocking technique: Batesville, and (recently) Blytheville.
Since I didn't see the line at 7 on 7 I couldn't comment on them. However, it goes to say that, good blocking is the initial key in any passing attack. They make sure the QB gets 4 to 5 seconds to pass.
It's safe to say that in general, there are less kids academically-ineligible in private schools than in public schools. This is caused by the private schools' admission process.
In regards with the actual athletes in private schools, they are usually just flat-out better skilled. Notice I said "skilled" not athletes. Parents that can afford to send their kids to private schools can also afford to spend money on their kids to play on select teams which in turn, improve their skills.
It simply comes down to the haves and have nots.
This has been a very interesting thread. A couple of things I think are being missed or misinterpreted. Private schools as a whole seem to get better participation in extra curricular activities. That is a clear advantage. This occurs I believe because of parents who are more involved in their child's education and encourages and supports the extra activities. I don't think you would find that 75% of public school kids are involved in extra activities are most schools. This is the main plus at a private school, parental involvement. Now you mention schools like Nashville, Greenwood, Junction and others. From what I hear and see those schools have very actively involved and large number parent groups. Want to see schools that struggle? Look at poor schools, look at schools with not a lot of parental involvement. Some of these things are just the way it is, but at a private school you are gathering a group of students from generally middle or upper middle class and above socio-economic families. A higher clientèle. These same schools seem to prosper over time dispite the coach in charge, look at the success at those schools over the year and with several differenct coaches at most of them. Greenwood and Nashville are excellent examples.
So what do you get at a private school, a really good group of students and parents that tend to work toward a higher outcome and understand the amount of work that needs to go into it. They demand more. Public schools do get their share of "recruits" in that families will move, especially in areas of high population and many schools close by, or choose school choice where they can to participate in winning program. Then you have schools that just don't put much into the program in terms of money and coaches. I see team with 3-4 coaches play teams with 6-8 coaches. Commitment is important, showing up to practice, mom and dad making it a priority instead of letting them skip, school and practice. Ever wonder why some of the same schools have been losing almost all the time for 20-30 years?
Kind of rambling here, but I think you can understand the point.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 22, 2015, 10:39:12 am
Quote from: Grond on December 22, 2015, 10:32:22 am
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 22, 2015, 09:38:51 am
Since most of this thread has been, as a result of participation from PAdad, referring many times to PA, I would like to share an observation about why I think PA is successful. I watched PA at a 7 on 7 this past summer at OBU. Going against some bigger classifications who had Dbacks who were pretty good, PA's receivers, ran very precise routes and the scheme was such, that the Dbacks many times were confused about who to defend. This confusion allowed receivers to get open, and, if the quarterback had 4 to 5 seconds to throw, which he usually did, there was a completion. The precision was the key. Never a missed route (that I saw), always full speed. The QB would always, it seemed, would find an open man. If a pass was incomplete it was a dropped ball or overthrown. That is the strength of their offense. They would not be as successful as a running team. This preciseness, ability to create confusion, never slacking on a play, decent QB is the reason for their success.
In a similar manner, I see the same type of play with PA's offensive and defensive lines. Stepping with the correct foot, maintaining the correct positioning during pass blocking.
Sadly, in the 5A East, there are only two schools that do a really good job of blocking technique: Batesville, and (recently) Blytheville.
Since I didn't see the line at 7 on 7 I couldn't comment on them. However, it goes to say that, good blocking is the initial key in any passing attack. They make sure the QB gets 4 to 5 seconds to pass.
Any team getting 4-5 seconds to pass had better be excelling at a high rate.
Quote from: purpleswag on December 22, 2015, 11:36:31 am
It's safe to say that in general, there are less kids academically-ineligible in private schools than in public schools. This is caused by the private schools' admission process.
In regards with the actual athletes in private schools, they are usually just flat-out better skilled. Notice I said "skilled" not athletes. Parents that can afford to send their kids to private schools can also afford to spend money on their kids to play on select teams which in turn, improve their skills.
It simply comes down to the haves and have nots.
In 2011, the following players were on PA's roster grades 9-12:
Fredi Knighten- Astate
Hunter Henry- Arkansas
Tyler Colquitt- Arkansas
Will Hefley- Tulsa
Will Hastings- Auburn
Jason King- Purdue
This is just football. No telling how many other d-1 athletes were there. I probably missed a couple of football players too lol. A school of 100 per class....
Dusty Hannahs was also in that class I believe.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:04:20 pm
Quote from: purpleswag on December 22, 2015, 11:36:31 am
It's safe to say that in general, there are less kids academically-ineligible in private schools than in public schools. This is caused by the private schools' admission process.
In regards with the actual athletes in private schools, they are usually just flat-out better skilled. Notice I said "skilled" not athletes. Parents that can afford to send their kids to private schools can also afford to spend money on their kids to play on select teams which in turn, improve their skills.
It simply comes down to the haves and have nots.
In 2011, the following players were on PA's roster grades 9-12:
Fredi Knighten- Astate
Hunter Henry- Arkansas
Tyler Colquitt- Arkansas
Will Hefley- Tulsa
Will Hastings- Auburn
Jason King- Purdue
This is just football. No telling how many other d-1 athletes were there. I probably missed a couple of football players too lol. A school of 100 per class....
Actually, you did miss some. I think L.J Wallace (UCA) was on that team too.
But, 2011 was far and away the best team PA has ever had. It had, by far, the most D-1 athletes. So, it's hardly fair to put that team out there as being representative of PA teams year to year.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 22, 2015, 12:08:03 pm
Dusty Hannahs was also in that class I believe.
He was.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 22, 2015, 12:08:39 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:04:20 pm
Quote from: purpleswag on December 22, 2015, 11:36:31 am
It's safe to say that in general, there are less kids academically-ineligible in private schools than in public schools. This is caused by the private schools' admission process.
In regards with the actual athletes in private schools, they are usually just flat-out better skilled. Notice I said "skilled" not athletes. Parents that can afford to send their kids to private schools can also afford to spend money on their kids to play on select teams which in turn, improve their skills.
It simply comes down to the haves and have nots.
In 2011, the following players were on PA's roster grades 9-12:
Fredi Knighten- Astate
Hunter Henry- Arkansas
Tyler Colquitt- Arkansas
Will Hefley- Tulsa
Will Hastings- Auburn
Jason King- Purdue
This is just football. No telling how many other d-1 athletes were there. I probably missed a couple of football players too lol. A school of 100 per class....
Actually, you did miss some. I think L.J Wallace (UCA) was on that team too.
But, 2011 was far and away the best team PA has ever had. It had, by far, the most D-1 athletes. So, it's hardly fair to put that team out there as being representative of PA teams year to year.
You're right, this isn't year to year, but almost every year PA has at minimum 2 d-1 athletes. Usually more. I would bet that Hatcher and Bruce are both d-1, and I'm sure there are a couple more that will be as well.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:17:44 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 22, 2015, 12:08:03 pm
Dusty Hannahs was also in that class I believe.
He was.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 22, 2015, 12:08:39 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:04:20 pm
Quote from: purpleswag on December 22, 2015, 11:36:31 am
It's safe to say that in general, there are less kids academically-ineligible in private schools than in public schools. This is caused by the private schools' admission process.
In regards with the actual athletes in private schools, they are usually just flat-out better skilled. Notice I said "skilled" not athletes. Parents that can afford to send their kids to private schools can also afford to spend money on their kids to play on select teams which in turn, improve their skills.
It simply comes down to the haves and have nots.
In 2011, the following players were on PA's roster grades 9-12:
Fredi Knighten- Astate
Hunter Henry- Arkansas
Tyler Colquitt- Arkansas
Will Hefley- Tulsa
Will Hastings- Auburn
Jason King- Purdue
This is just football. No telling how many other d-1 athletes were there. I probably missed a couple of football players too lol. A school of 100 per class....
Actually, you did miss some. I think L.J Wallace (UCA) was on that team too.
But, 2011 was far and away the best team PA has ever had. It had, by far, the most D-1 athletes. So, it's hardly fair to put that team out there as being representative of PA teams year to year.
You're right, this isn't year to year, but almost every year PA has at minimum 2 d-1 athletes. Usually more. I would bet that Hatcher and Bruce are both d-1, and I'm sure there are a couple more that will be as well.
I agree that PA usually has 2-3 D-1 players on the team.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:17:44 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 22, 2015, 12:08:03 pm
Dusty Hannahs was also in that class I believe.
He was.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 22, 2015, 12:08:39 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:04:20 pm
Quote from: purpleswag on December 22, 2015, 11:36:31 am
It's safe to say that in general, there are less kids academically-ineligible in private schools than in public schools. This is caused by the private schools' admission process.
In regards with the actual athletes in private schools, they are usually just flat-out better skilled. Notice I said "skilled" not athletes. Parents that can afford to send their kids to private schools can also afford to spend money on their kids to play on select teams which in turn, improve their skills.
It simply comes down to the haves and have nots.
In 2011, the following players were on PA's roster grades 9-12:
Fredi Knighten- Astate
Hunter Henry- Arkansas
Tyler Colquitt- Arkansas
Will Hefley- Tulsa
Will Hastings- Auburn
Jason King- Purdue
This is just football. No telling how many other d-1 athletes were there. I probably missed a couple of football players too lol. A school of 100 per class....
Actually, you did miss some. I think L.J Wallace (UCA) was on that team too.
But, 2011 was far and away the best team PA has ever had. It had, by far, the most D-1 athletes. So, it's hardly fair to put that team out there as being representative of PA teams year to year.
You're right, this isn't year to year, but almost every year PA has at minimum 2 d-1 athletes. Usually more. I would bet that Hatcher and Bruce are both d-1, and I'm sure there are a couple more that will be as well.
You can say the same for other 5A schools, and smaller, in Arkansas: Forrest City, Warren, Junction City, etc.
Quote from: Grond on December 22, 2015, 12:39:25 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:17:44 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 22, 2015, 12:08:03 pm
Dusty Hannahs was also in that class I believe.
He was.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 22, 2015, 12:08:39 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:04:20 pm
Quote from: purpleswag on December 22, 2015, 11:36:31 am
It's safe to say that in general, there are less kids academically-ineligible in private schools than in public schools. This is caused by the private schools' admission process.
In regards with the actual athletes in private schools, they are usually just flat-out better skilled. Notice I said "skilled" not athletes. Parents that can afford to send their kids to private schools can also afford to spend money on their kids to play on select teams which in turn, improve their skills.
It simply comes down to the haves and have nots.
In 2011, the following players were on PA's roster grades 9-12:
Fredi Knighten- Astate
Hunter Henry- Arkansas
Tyler Colquitt- Arkansas
Will Hefley- Tulsa
Will Hastings- Auburn
Jason King- Purdue
This is just football. No telling how many other d-1 athletes were there. I probably missed a couple of football players too lol. A school of 100 per class....
Actually, you did miss some. I think L.J Wallace (UCA) was on that team too.
But, 2011 was far and away the best team PA has ever had. It had, by far, the most D-1 athletes. So, it's hardly fair to put that team out there as being representative of PA teams year to year.
You're right, this isn't year to year, but almost every year PA has at minimum 2 d-1 athletes. Usually more. I would bet that Hatcher and Bruce are both d-1, and I'm sure there are a couple more that will be as well.
You can say the same for other 5A schools, and smaller, in Arkansas: Forrest City, Warren, Junction City, etc.
I can't recall the last time Batesville had a D-1 player. We had one walk on at Fayetteville around 6 years ago who earned a scholarship his junior year, I think, and Melton played maybe 10 years ago. Any other Pioneer posters recall others in the last 10-12 years?
Dad, I did not read all the posts so this may have discussed already. But, as to the success, your right in that the head coach has made a huge difference. Like the innovative strategy Mahlzon used, (Hurry up, spread, non returnable kicks and so on) likewise Kevin brings a type of play to the high school level that is simply hard to defend, but only at that level. So to say the success of PA starts in 03 with the mind set Kevin brings to the table is spot on. Then you factor in immediate success with the desire to want to play for a winning program, "IF", your intent as an athlete is to move on the next level, you get the majority of the "Blue Chippers" around the area.
Using other private schools from different areas as an example, Shreveport Evangel Christian, many private schools are not "ham strung" with coaching restrictions either due to budgets or rule. SEC has a coach for nearly every position on their football team. QB, RB, OL, DL, Receivers, DB, K, LB, ST and so on, a bus load of coaching specialists. I would assume several of the private schools in Arkansas have the same. Aside from Kevin, PA's receiver coach aint too bad either, Props to you Mr. Lucas, and thanks for your hard work as a Hog as well.
I really have no problem with any advantage any team has as long as the student is getting what he and she need in the class room. However, not saying this exists at PA, but, all private school students "must" live within 25 miles of that school, and a second residence, for the sake of circumventing that rule does not count.
Where I dwell on the 2A board many have read my post where I say, "In order to be the Man, you have to Beat the Man". I also apply this to the 5A board. Victory over a dominate program is a lot sweeter than a run of the mill opponent. PA has been fortunate of late, has taken on all comers and came out on top. I guess Wynne has given the Bruins the most trouble of any of the publics in the last two years. Had we attracted the top 15 athletes from the four schools north south east and west of us, that would have been a whole different animal I assure you. Good luck next season, hope we meet yall down the line.
You also have to remember, they play at 5A but they have the enrollment of 4A. How many 4A's have 1-2 D1 a year.
Quote from: gameoflife on December 22, 2015, 01:02:55 pm
You also have to remember, they play at 5A but they have the enrollment of 4A. How many 4A's have 1-2 D1 a year.
Warren and Dumas come to mind. I am gathering info for a new thread..... ;)
Maybe I'm just not keeping up with all the D1 athletes in Arkansas, but it doesn't seem like very many. To have all these schools at 4,5,6,7 A having 1-2-3 or whatever D!.
Quote from: gameoflife on December 22, 2015, 01:02:55 pm
You also have to remember, they play at 5A but they have the enrollment of 4A. How many 4A's have 1-2 D1 a year.
I'd say Warren does for sure. I'm not so sure about Nashville, but they might.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on December 22, 2015, 12:49:51 pm
Quote from: Grond on December 22, 2015, 12:39:25 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:17:44 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 22, 2015, 12:08:03 pm
Dusty Hannahs was also in that class I believe.
He was.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 22, 2015, 12:08:39 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:04:20 pm
Quote from: purpleswag on December 22, 2015, 11:36:31 am
It's safe to say that in general, there are less kids academically-ineligible in private schools than in public schools. This is caused by the private schools' admission process.
In regards with the actual athletes in private schools, they are usually just flat-out better skilled. Notice I said "skilled" not athletes. Parents that can afford to send their kids to private schools can also afford to spend money on their kids to play on select teams which in turn, improve their skills.
It simply comes down to the haves and have nots.
In 2011, the following players were on PA's roster grades 9-12:
Fredi Knighten- Astate
Hunter Henry- Arkansas
Tyler Colquitt- Arkansas
Will Hefley- Tulsa
Will Hastings- Auburn
Jason King- Purdue
This is just football. No telling how many other d-1 athletes were there. I probably missed a couple of football players too lol. A school of 100 per class....
Actually, you did miss some. I think L.J Wallace (UCA) was on that team too.
But, 2011 was far and away the best team PA has ever had. It had, by far, the most D-1 athletes. So, it's hardly fair to put that team out there as being representative of PA teams year to year.
You're right, this isn't year to year, but almost every year PA has at minimum 2 d-1 athletes. Usually more. I would bet that Hatcher and Bruce are both d-1, and I'm sure there are a couple more that will be as well.
You can say the same for other 5A schools, and smaller, in Arkansas: Forrest City, Warren, Junction City, etc.
I can't recall the last time Batesville had a D-1 player. We had one walk on at Fayetteville around 6 years ago who earned a scholarship his junior year, I think, and Melton played maybe 10 years ago. Any other Pioneer posters recall others in the last 10-12 years?
Your coach was quoted in the paper as saying that your tight end this year will probably be D-1.
Quote from: FD4 on December 22, 2015, 12:53:52 pm
Dad, I did not read all the posts so this may have discussed already. But, as to the success, your right in that the head coach has made a huge difference. Like the innovative strategy Mahlzon used, (Hurry up, spread, non returnable kicks and so on) likewise Kevin brings a type of play to the high school level that is simply hard to defend, but only at that level. So to say the success of PA starts in 03 with the mind set Kevin brings to the table is spot on. Then you factor in immediate success with the desire to want to play for a winning program, "IF", your intent as an athlete is to move on the next level, you get the majority of the "Blue Chippers" around the area.
Using other private schools from different areas as an example, Shreveport Evangel Christian, many private schools are not "ham strung" with coaching restrictions either due to budgets or rule. SEC has a coach for nearly every position on their football team. QB, RB, OL, DL, Receivers, DB, K, LB, ST and so on, a bus load of coaching specialists. I would assume several of the private schools in Arkansas have the same. Aside from Kevin, PA's receiver coach aint too bad either, Props to you Mr. Lucas, and thanks for your hard work as a Hog as well.
I really have no problem with any advantage any team has as long as the student is getting what he and she need in the class room. However, not saying this exists at PA, but, all private school students "must" live within 25 miles of that school, and a second residence, for the sake of circumventing that rule does not count.
Where I dwell on the 2A board many have read my post where I say, "In order to be the Man, you have to Beat the Man". I also apply this to the 5A board. Victory over a dominate program is a lot sweeter than a run of the mill opponent. PA has been fortunate of late, has taken on all comers and came out on top. I guess Wynne has given the Bruins the most trouble of any of the publics in the last two years. Had we attracted the top 15 athletes from the four schools north south east and west of us, that would have been a whole different animal I assure you. Good luck next season, hope we meet yall down the line.
You make some good points.
I agree that Wynne always gives PA trouble. There have been some great games between those teams.
Quote from: Grond on December 22, 2015, 01:15:22 pm
Quote from: gameoflife on December 22, 2015, 01:02:55 pm
You also have to remember, they play at 5A but they have the enrollment of 4A. How many 4A's have 1-2 D1 a year.
Warren and Dumas come to mind. I am gathering info for a new thread..... ;)
Can't wait!
I posted this in the 3A thread regarding public v. private, but thought I'd put it here too because it is germane to our discussion:
The last two paragraphs of the study reflect the division in the courts and also reflect the arguments made in this thread:
"Despite nearly identical facts of the cases and wording of the policies, the
United States District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri came to a
different conclusion in Beck v. MSHSAA (1993) than the 7th Federal Circuit
Court of Appeals in Griffin High School v. Illinois High School Association
(1987). In Beck v. MSHSAA (1993), the court opined "because the case at bar
lacks comparable evidence as to the existence of a 'private school advantage'...
it is not evident to this court how these 'differences' provide non-public
schools an advantage over public schools" (p. 1005). The court went on
to observe, "This court has searched in vain for an explanation of the 'advantage'
that nonpublic schools are afforded over public schools which might justify such an exception to the transfer restriction" (Beck v. MSHSAA, 1993,
p. 1005).
What is missing in the multiplier debate is the question of what it is that
makes successful programs successful, public or private. Jim Place,
Chaminade-Julienne football coach in Ohio who has coached at both public
and private schools, stated "They don't get it. We win because of discipline"
(as cited in Gokavi, 2005, p. C8). Ben Freeman, Pelion public school athletic
director in South Carolina, stated "you always know they're going to have
good teams there....They've always been well-coached, and they're just good
programs" (as cited in Emerson, 2006, ¶32). Byron Williams, the principal at
Salmen High, a public school in Louisiana, stated "I'm the kind of person, if
the bully is whipping my butt on the way to school, take the whipping....Don't
cry and stay home. Get better" (as cited in Longman, 2004, p. D1). Is it possible
that intangibles exist in both public and private schools such as tradition,
high expectations, effective coaching, discipline, and a strong work ethic that
lead to inordinate success? Is it possible that success begets success, and that
the key challenge in athletics is to build a tradition of success rather than legislating
success through a gerrymandered multiplier?"
Here is the source for the quote: http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1005884.pdf
It is an interesting, but long, study of the public vs. private debate.
PA, just petition to go to 6A and take care of all the drama. You can play GW, PB, and ElDo. It would be fun.
I think greenwood moves down if they petition up, they are the smallest 6a
Quote from: the voice on December 22, 2015, 03:53:03 pm
I think greenwood moves down if they petition up, they are the smallest 6a
They wouldn't necessarily have to move the smallest though. I'm sure they could move some other school and everyone would be fine with it.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 03:51:09 pm
PA, just petition to go to 6A and take care of all the drama. You can play GW, PB, and ElDo. It would be fun.
As you know, I'm in favor of doing that.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 22, 2015, 03:54:14 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 03:51:09 pm
PA, just petition to go to 6A and take care of all the drama. You can play GW, PB, and ElDo. It would be fun.
As you know, I'm in favor of doing that.
I think the 5A will be more competitive next season, but the 6A with you guys would be a lot of fun to watch. I'm not sure I have a vote for either scenario because I wouldn't mind either one.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 03:53:00 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 22, 2015, 03:53:03 pm
I think greenwood moves down if they petition up, they are the smallest 6a
They wouldn't necessarily have to move the smallest though. I'm sure they could move some other school and everyone would be fine with it.
think greenwood would get first choice, or have to agree. Wasn't this an issue when Shiloh petitioned to move up a few years ago? someone had to agree to move down?(Monticello maybe?)
Quote from: HF on December 22, 2015, 05:55:22 pm
think greenwood would get first choice, or have to agree. Wasn't this an issue when Shiloh petitioned to move up a few years ago? someone had to agree to move down?(Monticello maybe?)
I think you are right about Monticello if I recall correctly - and they were perfectly happy to return to 4A because they were a better geographical fit there than in 5A.
Monticello is very happy where they are. Minus the beat downs they get. But they are no more than an hour away from every team they play in conference.
Fella's I'm at a loss here. Many people say there is no difference between public and private. That there is no advantage for the private schools, yet they are successful. There are great coaches at the private schools as there are great coaches at the public schools. Why then, are the private schools for the most part, beating all the public schools and winning all these state championships. is there a difference in the athletes? If so, why?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 22, 2015, 01:32:54 pm
Quote from: Intelligentsia on December 22, 2015, 12:49:51 pm
Quote from: Grond on December 22, 2015, 12:39:25 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:17:44 pm
Quote from: AirWarren on December 22, 2015, 12:08:03 pm
Dusty Hannahs was also in that class I believe.
He was.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 22, 2015, 12:08:39 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 22, 2015, 12:04:20 pm
Quote from: purpleswag on December 22, 2015, 11:36:31 am
It's safe to say that in general, there are less kids academically-ineligible in private schools than in public schools. This is caused by the private schools' admission process.
In regards with the actual athletes in private schools, they are usually just flat-out better skilled. Notice I said "skilled" not athletes. Parents that can afford to send their kids to private schools can also afford to spend money on their kids to play on select teams which in turn, improve their skills.
It simply comes down to the haves and have nots.
In 2011, the following players were on PA's roster grades 9-12:
Fredi Knighten- Astate
Hunter Henry- Arkansas
Tyler Colquitt- Arkansas
Will Hefley- Tulsa
Will Hastings- Auburn
Jason King- Purdue
This is just football. No telling how many other d-1 athletes were there. I probably missed a couple of football players too lol. A school of 100 per class....
Actually, you did miss some. I think L.J Wallace (UCA) was on that team too.
But, 2011 was far and away the best team PA has ever had. It had, by far, the most D-1 athletes. So, it's hardly fair to put that team out there as being representative of PA teams year to year.
You're right, this isn't year to year, but almost every year PA has at minimum 2 d-1 athletes. Usually more. I would bet that Hatcher and Bruce are both d-1, and I'm sure there are a couple more that will be as well.
You can say the same for other 5A schools, and smaller, in Arkansas: Forrest City, Warren, Junction City, etc.
I can't recall the last time Batesville had a D-1 player. We had one walk on at Fayetteville around 6 years ago who earned a scholarship his junior year, I think, and Melton played maybe 10 years ago. Any other Pioneer posters recall others in the last 10-12 years?
Your coach was quoted in the paper as saying that your tight end this year will probably be D-1.
One of the military services inquired last year, as did an Ivy League school. I've not heard about any offers, though I hope he plays somewhere. I think a D2 or NAIA school is more likely.
Many great points here. Great thread.
The post about parental involvement, working early on for a common goal and so on was spot on. That's a big factor. Throw in what Kelly demands and it's a recipe for a very successful run.
I do disagree somewhat with whether PA would be as successful without Kelly and whether he would have the same success at another school. I think he'd dominate anywhere, and I have no doubt there will be a substantial drop off when he leaves.
Recall the little and impoverished town of Hughes. They made it to the state championship game one year. Never was good before and you never heard from them again. That one year they were coached by Gus Malzahn, who then went on to dominate at a private school (Shiloh) then a public school ((Springdale). Good athletes helped, of course, but there are similarities. Stick Kevin Kelly at a place like NLR and I think it would be Katy bar the door. It would take a year or two for the kids to understand what would be required of them, but they wouldn't have a superior bunch of athletes getting their brains stomped in by Bentonville in the playoffs. In my humble opinion.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 22, 2015, 11:28:54 pm
Many great points here. Great thread.
The post about parental involvement, working early on for a common goal and so on was spot on. That's a big factor. Throw in what Kelly demands and it's a recipe for a very successful run.
I do disagree somewhat with whether PA would be as successful without Kelly and whether he would have the same success at another school. I think he'd dominate anywhere, and I have no doubt there will be a substantial drop off when he leaves.
Recall the little and impoverished town of Hughes. They made it to the state championship game one year. Never was good before and you never heard from them again. That one year they were coached by Gus Malzahn, who then went on to dominate at a private school (Shiloh) then a public school ((Springdale). Good athletes helped, of course, but there are similarities. Stick Kevin Kelly at a place like NLR and I think it would be Katy bar the door. It would take a year or two for the kids to understand what would be required of them, but they wouldn't have a superior bunch of athletes getting their brains stomped in by Bentonville in the playoffs. In my humble opinion.
Hughes made 3 quarterfinals in a row from 02-05, and won a basketball state championship in 2009ish...
Cake I see the point you're trying to make about NLR, but it's kinda the same, lots of potentially dominate players, I'd like to see it at say Harrison, a once very successful program, has had players over the years , won championships in football, has now in other sports, so it wouldn't be like going to a program that hasn't every won. And they do support their program there.
Quote from: the voice on December 23, 2015, 07:37:41 am
Cake I see the point you're trying to make about NLR, but it's kinda the same, lots of potentially dominate players, I'd like to see it at say Harrison, a once very successful program, has had players over the years , won championships in football, has now in other sports, so it wouldn't be like going to a program that hasn't every won. And they do support their program there.
Harrison State Championships
Baseball: 2008, '15
Boys Basketball: 1967, 1984
Girls Basketball: 2000, '01, '02, '03
Boys Cross Country: 1985, 2007, '13, '15
Girls Cross Country: 1993, '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, '99, 2000, '03, '05
Football: 1999
Boys Golf: 1996, '97, 2008, '12' 15
Girls Golf: 2005, 06
Boys Soccer: 2002, '03, '04, '05, '06, '08
Girls Soccer: 2002, '04, '11, '14
Softball: -----
Boys Tennis: 1989, 1990
Girls Tennis: ----
Boys Track: ----
Girls Track: ----
Volleyball: 200(0?)
I believe that these are all correct. These do not indicate on how many times that the Goblins/Lady Goblins made it to the semi or final game in each sport. For instance, last year was the 1st time that the Goblins did not make it to the semis in soccer since 2002, but in the same sport, the Lady Goblins made it to the semis and only lost 3 games in 5A play: two to LRCA in conference and the semi to PA. PA lost to LRCA in the final.
Postal I appreciate that , l meant no disrespect to Harrison staff or supporters in that comment either. Just an example of a location that would be a good test for KK , solid program with potential and great support, in my opinion NLR will be successful because of the players and whoever the coach is will always have that used against him
Quote from: Go Postal on December 23, 2015, 08:31:27 am
Quote from: the voice on December 23, 2015, 07:37:41 am
Cake I see the point you're trying to make about NLR, but it's kinda the same, lots of potentially dominate players, I'd like to see it at say Harrison, a once very successful program, has had players over the years , won championships in football, has now in other sports, so it wouldn't be like going to a program that hasn't every won. And they do support their program there.
Harrison State Championships
Baseball: 2008, '15
Boys Basketball: 1967, 1984
Girls Basketball: 2000, '01, '02, '03
Boys Cross Country: 1985, 2007, '13, '15
Girls Cross Country: 1993, '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, '99, 2000, '03, '05
Football: 1999
Boys Golf: 1996, '97, 2008, '12' 15
Girls Golf: 2005, 06
Boys Soccer: 2002, '03, '04, '05, '06, '08
Girls Soccer: 2002, '04, '11, '14
Softball: -----
Boys Tennis: 1989, 1990
Girls Tennis: ----
Boys Track: ----
Girls Track: ----
Volleyball: 200(0?)
I believe that these are all correct. These do not indicate on how many times that the Goblins/Lady Goblins made it to the semi or final game in each sport. For instance, last year was the 1st time that the Goblins did not make it to the semis in soccer since 2002, but in the same sport, the Lady Goblins made it to the semis and only lost 3 games in 5A play: two to LRCA in conference and the semi to PA. PA lost to LRCA in the final.
Are you sure the girls won cross country in 05? I thought Batesville did when they had their 7 straight.
That is what the banner says in the gym.
Quote from: the voice on December 23, 2015, 07:37:41 am
Cake I see the point you're trying to make about NLR, but it's kinda the same, lots of potentially dominate players, I'd like to see it at say Harrison, a once very successful program, has had players over the years , won championships in football, has now in other sports, so it wouldn't be like going to a program that hasn't every won. And they do support their program there.
The REAL TEST would be sending Kelley to PARAGOULD. No winning season in over ten years. They have had a few players go on to play college ball.
What is missing in the multiplier debate is the question of what it is that
makes successful programs successful, public or private. Jim Place,
Chaminade-Julienne football coach in Ohio who has coached at both public
and private schools, stated "They don't get it. We win because of discipline"
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 22, 2015, 10:07:32 pm
Fella's I'm at a loss here. Many people say there is no difference between public and private. That there is no advantage for the private schools, yet they are successful. There are great coaches at the private schools as there are great coaches at the public schools. Why then, are the private schools for the most part, beating all the public schools and winning all these state championships. is there a difference in the athletes? If so, why?
Discipline, Discipline, Discipline. Some public schools manage to get it, many do not. Private schools have more of it,, it shows. Parental input, watching what goes on. Not babying the student athletes. At a private school, mom and dad are too much a problem, kick em out. Public you have to take everybody.
Quote from: gameoflife on December 23, 2015, 01:31:47 pm
What is missing in the multiplier debate is the question of what it is that
makes successful programs successful, public or private. Jim Place,
Chaminade-Julienne football coach in Ohio who has coached at both public
and private schools, stated “They don’t get it. We win because of discipline”Quote from: Oldbadger on December 22, 2015, 10:07:32 pm
Fella's I'm at a loss here. Many people say there is no difference between public and private. That there is no advantage for the private schools, yet they are successful. There are great coaches at the private schools as there are great coaches at the public schools. Why then, are the private schools for the most part, beating all the public schools and winning all these state championships. is there a difference in the athletes? If so, why?
Discipline, Discipline, Discipline. Some public schools manage to get it, many do not. Private schools have more of it,, it shows. Parental input, watching what goes on. Not babying the student athletes. At a private school, mom and dad are too much a problem, kick em out. Public you have to take everybody.
This is what I was getting at. Private schools attract students who are amenable to discipline. They are able to weed out those that don't adhere to discipline for whatever reason. Therefore, in all aspects of the sports program, whatever it is, the athlete not only adheres to discipline but, also disciplines himself. Public schools, as you say, have to take what they get, and, some can be disciplined, some can't. This manifests itself in football, for example, when a RB doesn't carry out his fakes, doesn't block well, or a WR, doesn't run his route if he isn't getting the ball. A disciplined player does these things, an undisciplined one doesn't.
Quote from: Grond on December 23, 2015, 12:39:48 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 23, 2015, 07:37:41 am
Cake I see the point you're trying to make about NLR, but it's kinda the same, lots of potentially dominate players, I'd like to see it at say Harrison, a once very successful program, has had players over the years , won championships in football, has now in other sports, so it wouldn't be like going to a program that hasn't every won. And they do support their program there.
The REAL TEST would be sending Kelley to PARAGOULD. No winning season in over ten years. They have had a few players go on to play college ball.
Too few Walcott players being developed. 😉
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on December 23, 2015, 05:02:28 pm
Quote from: Grond on December 23, 2015, 12:39:48 pm
Quote from: the voice on December 23, 2015, 07:37:41 am
Cake I see the point you're trying to make about NLR, but it's kinda the same, lots of potentially dominate players, I'd like to see it at say Harrison, a once very successful program, has had players over the years , won championships in football, has now in other sports, so it wouldn't be like going to a program that hasn't every won. And they do support their program there.
The REAL TEST would be sending Kelley to PARAGOULD. No winning season in over ten years. They have had a few players go on to play college ball.
Too few Walcott players being developed. 😉
Outstanding!! That's hilarious....... ;D ;D ;D [Walcott is a post office about 5 miles west of Paragould, in the GCT school district.]
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 23, 2015, 04:37:46 pm
Quote from: gameoflife on December 23, 2015, 01:31:47 pm
What is missing in the multiplier debate is the question of what it is that
makes successful programs successful, public or private. Jim Place,
Chaminade-Julienne football coach in Ohio who has coached at both public
and private schools, stated "They don't get it. We win because of discipline"Quote from: Oldbadger on December 22, 2015, 10:07:32 pm
Fella's I'm at a loss here. Many people say there is no difference between public and private. That there is no advantage for the private schools, yet they are successful. There are great coaches at the private schools as there are great coaches at the public schools. Why then, are the private schools for the most part, beating all the public schools and winning all these state championships. is there a difference in the athletes? If so, why?
Discipline, Discipline, Discipline. Some public schools manage to get it, many do not. Private schools have more of it,, it shows. Parental input, watching what goes on. Not babying the student athletes. At a private school, mom and dad are too much a problem, kick em out. Public you have to take everybody.
This is what I was getting at. Private schools attract students who are amenable to discipline. They are able to weed out those that don't adhere to discipline for whatever reason. Therefore, in all aspects of the sports program, whatever it is, the athlete not only adheres to discipline but, also disciplines himself. Public schools, as you say, have to take what they get, and, some can be disciplined, some can't. This manifests itself in football, for example, when a RB doesn't carry out his fakes, doesn't block well, or a WR, doesn't run his route if he isn't getting the ball. A disciplined player does these things, an undisciplined one doesn't.
Very well said. ;)
My bad HF. Malzahn probably made no impact while there.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 23, 2015, 08:58:55 pm
My bad HF. Malzahn probably made no impact while there.
It's "Malizan"!!!
Signed, Houston Dale
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 23, 2015, 08:58:55 pm
My bad HF. Malzahn probably made no impact while there.
Na it was a good point...malzahn did build the monster we knew as shiloh christian and started this mess with private schools in the first place
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:33:03 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 23, 2015, 08:58:55 pm
My bad HF. Malzahn probably made no impact while there.
Na it was a good point...malzahn did build the monster we knew as shiloh christian and started this mess with private schools in the first place
What mess?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 23, 2015, 09:35:39 pm
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:33:03 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 23, 2015, 08:58:55 pm
My bad HF. Malzahn probably made no impact while there.
Na it was a good point...malzahn did build the monster we knew as shiloh christian and started this mess with private schools in the first place
What mess?
Just in case you're not joking....the hatred, jealousy etc
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:36:28 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 23, 2015, 09:35:39 pm
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:33:03 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 23, 2015, 08:58:55 pm
My bad HF. Malzahn probably made no impact while there.
Na it was a good point...malzahn did build the monster we knew as shiloh christian and started this mess with private schools in the first place
What mess?
Just in case you're not joking....the hatred, jealousy etc
I was joking. This whole thread is about "the mess."
Quote from: PA Dad on December 23, 2015, 09:40:18 pm
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:36:28 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 23, 2015, 09:35:39 pm
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:33:03 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 23, 2015, 08:58:55 pm
My bad HF. Malzahn probably made no impact while there.
Na it was a good point...malzahn did build the monster we knew as shiloh christian and started this mess with private schools in the first place
What mess?
Just in case you're not joking....the hatred, jealousy etc
I was joking. This whole thread is about "the mess."
😜😜
Quote from: PA Dad on December 23, 2015, 09:40:18 pm
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:36:28 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 23, 2015, 09:35:39 pm
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:33:03 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 23, 2015, 08:58:55 pm
My bad HF. Malzahn probably made no impact while there.
Na it was a good point...malzahn did build the monster we knew as shiloh christian and started this mess with private schools in the first place
What mess?
Just in case you're not joking....the hatred, jealousy etc
I was joking. This whole thread is about "the mess."
I've obviously had to much cold medicine today....
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:55:57 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 23, 2015, 09:40:18 pm
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:36:28 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 23, 2015, 09:35:39 pm
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 09:33:03 pm
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 23, 2015, 08:58:55 pm
My bad HF. Malzahn probably made no impact while there.
Na it was a good point...malzahn did build the monster we knew as shiloh christian and started this mess with private schools in the first place
What mess?
Just in case you're not joking....the hatred, jealousy etc
I was joking. This whole thread is about "the mess."
I've obviously had to much cold medicine today....
The "NyQuil Syndrome". 😀
This thread is my nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, wheezing, I can't get any rest medicine.
The REAL TEST would be sending Kelley to PARAGOULD. No winning season in over ten years. They have had a few players go on to play college ball.
[/quote]
How many of the best coaches at the perrinieal winning programs have done that. Gone into one of the always losing schools and made a state champion out ot them. Or even a consistant winner for a long period? I see lots of good coaches go into programs already winning and continue the winning ways, that would be a culture in the community, a tradition that the community preserves.
I'm in Miami tonight with nothing to do. I reread this whole thread. I'm amazed with how reasonable the arguments are. They are factual and devoid of stupid assumptions we see on other threads. Why can't all of our threads be like this?
Quote from: PA Dad on February 11, 2016, 08:56:17 pm
I'm in Miami tonight with nothing to do. I reread this whole thread. I'm amazed with how reasonable the arguments are. They are factual and devoid of stupid assumptions we see on other threads. Why can't all of our threads be like this?
Poor guy, Miami can be pretty boring this time of year.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on February 15, 2016, 08:27:59 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on February 11, 2016, 08:56:17 pm
I'm in Miami tonight with nothing to do. I reread this whole thread. I'm amazed with how reasonable the arguments are. They are factual and devoid of stupid assumptions we see on other threads. Why can't all of our threads be like this?
Poor guy, Miami can be pretty boring this time of year.
You're assuming FL there Maynard.....could be OH.
Quote from: HF on December 23, 2015, 06:47:00 am
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 22, 2015, 11:28:54 pm
Many great points here. Great thread.
The post about parental involvement, working early on for a common goal and so on was spot on. That's a big factor. Throw in what Kelly demands and it's a recipe for a very successful run.
I do disagree somewhat with whether PA would be as successful without Kelly and whether he would have the same success at another school. I think he'd dominate anywhere, and I have no doubt there will be a substantial drop off when he leaves.
Recall the little and impoverished town of Hughes. They made it to the state championship game one year. Never was good before and you never heard from them again. That one year they were coached by Gus Malzahn, who then went on to dominate at a private school (Shiloh) then a public school ((Springdale). Good athletes helped, of course, but there are similarities. Stick Kevin Kelly at a place like NLR and I think it would be Katy bar the door. It would take a year or two for the kids to understand what would be required of them, but they wouldn't have a superior bunch of athletes getting their brains stomped in by Bentonville in the playoffs. In my humble opinion.
Hughes made 3 quarterfinals in a row from 02-05, and won a basketball state championship in 2009ish...
Rereading some of this thread, I think you may be mistaken about Hughes never having been good before Gus, and certainly about not after according to the previous post..
Not to mention malzahn was the HC at Hughes for 3 years
Quote from: HF on February 16, 2016, 09:24:22 am
Not to mention malzahn was the HC at Hughes for 3 years
Hughes is part of the West Memphis school district now aren't they??
Private schools raked in another 6 championships between football, baseball, basketball, soccer, and volleyball. I believe that number is correct anyway. Just wanting to let PA Dad know because I know how much he likes to keep up with the private schools.
Quote from: MDXPHD on May 26, 2016, 09:03:53 am
Private schools raked in another 6 championships between football, baseball, basketball, soccer, and volleyball. I believe that number is correct anyway. Just wanting to let PA Dad know because I know how much he likes to keep up with the private schools.
Thanks for the info. I guess private schools are just superior!
Quote from: PA Dad on May 30, 2016, 06:19:02 pm
Thanks for the info. I guess private schools are just superior!
No, we all know that they have a recruiting coordinator! lol Are we going to hash this out all over again!
(http://static.srcdn.com/slir/w620-h320-q90-c620:320/wp-content/uploads/Tom-Cruise-in-Edge-of-Tomorrow-Reviews.jpg)
Quote from: Oldbadger on May 31, 2016, 09:27:30 pm
No, we all know that they have a recruiting coordinator! lol Are we going to hash this out all over again!
Not at all. That was tongue in cheek.
(http://static.srcdn.com/slir/w620-h320-q90-c620:320/wp-content/uploads/Tom-Cruise-in-Edge-of-Tomorrow-Reviews.jpg)
Quote from: PA Dad on June 01, 2016, 12:31:40 pm
Not at all. That was tongue in cheek.
Pa dad is the recruiting Coordinator. You can find him hanging out at the central Arkansas youth football league games this fall catching up with the "next big ones." Ha
(http://static.srcdn.com/slir/w620-h320-q90-c620:320/wp-content/uploads/Tom-Cruise-in-Edge-of-Tomorrow-Reviews.jpg)
Public
Quote from: AirWarren on June 01, 2016, 03:16:54 pm
Pa dad is the recruiting Coordinator. You can find him hanging out at the central Arkansas youth football league games this fall catching up with the "next big ones." Ha
Dang! I thought I had that well hidden!
By the way, it's a well paying job!
(http://static.srcdn.com/slir/w620-h320-q90-c620:320/wp-content/uploads/Tom-Cruise-in-Edge-of-Tomorrow-Reviews.jpg)
Quote from: PA Dad on June 02, 2016, 10:13:07 am
Dang! I thought I had that well hidden!
By the way, it's a well paying job!
8 figures?
Best tread ever!!
Here is a list of the average (Division 1) players Kelley has had the privilege of coaching at PA since 2003, I think. I'm sure I'm missing some or I may be wrong on some.
1. Stefan Loucks - Texas Tech
2. Broderick Green - USC
3. Hunter Henry - Arkansas
4. Adam Thrash - Alabama
5. Spencer Keith - Tulsa
6. Fredi Knighten - Arkansas State University
7. Ben Sessions - Harvard
8. Cameron Colbert - Arkansas
9. Jeremy Brady - Tulsa
10. Jason King - Purdue
11. John Aaron Rees - Arkansas
12. Trent Peterson - SE Missouri State
13. Trevor Gillott - Arkansas State University
14. Will Hastings - Auburn
15. Will Hefley - Tulsa
16. Reed Rickenbach - Memphis
17. Cruz Williams - Louisiana Tech
18. Caden Haws - BYU
19. Tre Bruce - Army
20. Dirk Tanner - Louisiana Tech
21. Neal Barlow - Arkansas
22. Austin Noonan - Army
23. Aaron Langford - Arkansas State University
24. Matt Stoltz - LSU
25. Stephen Green - North Carolina
26. Jonathan Luigs - Arkansas
27. Justin Charette - Ole Miss
28. Robert Ator - Air Force
29. Adam Pierce - Arkansas
30. Matt Kolb - Arkansas
There are a few on their current roster that will be D-1 also. Keep in mind, this school should be competing in 3A with their enrollment. The whole "PA is just average like everyone else and they win because of the system and coaching" is just not true. That helps, sure. I believe Batesville has 1-3 d-1 players in about the same amount of time.
Hope these aren't just "innuendos" and that I'm not being a disgrace to my profession by posting these numbers.
Telling numbers right there. Nice job.
No innuendo or disgrace here. I like dealing with facts.
You have a couple on the list which were not given a scholarship. Will Hastings and Rick Rickenbach were walk ons.
If you posted this to show that PA has talent, you'll get no argument from me. I've always agreed that PA has talented players, although usually only two or three a year get scholarships.
If you posted this to show PA recruits, which is what we were talking about in the other thread, I disagree with you. Having a couple or three talented players a year does not prove recruiting. In fact, as you know, I can show that nearly all those college players were at PA from grade school on.
And, it would be neat to see a list of college scholarships awarded to players from other schools. Grond has worked on this, and his numbers show that PA does not have an extraordinary number of scholarships compared to other teams.
At least we're talking about facts. I like that.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 03, 2016, 10:42:43 am
No innuendo or disgrace here. I like dealing with facts.
You have a couple on the list which were not given a scholarship. Will Hastings and Rick Rickenbach were walk ons.
If you posted this to show that PA has talent, you'll get no argument from me. I've always agreed that PA has talented players, although usually only two or three a year get scholarships.
If you posted this to show PA recruits, which is what we were talking about in the other thread, I disagree with you. Having a couple or three talented players a year does not prove recruiting. In fact, as you know, I can show that nearly all those college players were at PA from grade school on.
And, it would be neat to see a list of college scholarships awarded to players from other schools. Grond has worked on this, and his numbers show that PA does not have an extraordinary number of scholarships compared to other teams.
At least we're talking about facts. I like that.
He should post a list of other 3A school's athletes going to d-1 colleges.
2-3 per year going d-1 on average...what does that mean for each team that comes through? Grades 10-12. So are we talking 6-9 d-1 players on these teams that compete for state each year?
I think your point is that PA wins because it has superior talent. I've admitted in the past and admit today that PA has some talented players. I'm glad they do.
What you ignore is that those talented players grow up at PA and learn their skills at PA. Do you think that might be why PA has the D-1 players it has? Do you think the PA QB's that got D-1 offers would have received those offers if they played at a different school with a different scheme?
And what about this year? PA doesn't have a bunch of D-1 players this year. I know one offensive lineman has D-1 offers, but I don't know of any others.
Does PA have more talented players than Wynne? After watching them play, I'd say Wynne has more talented players, hands down.
So, my point is that PA is good because it developes its players from an early age, the players are taught discipline from an early age, and the coaches, both offensive and defensive, are outstanding.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 09:40:06 am
Here is a list of the average (Division 1) players Kelley has had the privilege of coaching at PA since 2003, I think. I'm sure I'm missing some or I may be wrong on some.
1. Stefan Loucks - Texas Tech
2. Broderick Green - USC
3. Hunter Henry - Arkansas
4. Adam Thrash - Alabama
5. Spencer Keith - Tulsa
6. Fredi Knighten - Arkansas State University
7. Ben Sessions - Harvard
8. Cameron Colbert - Arkansas
9. Jeremy Brady - Tulsa
10. Jason King - Purdue
11. John Aaron Rees - Arkansas
12. Trent Peterson - SE Missouri State
13. Trevor Gillott - Arkansas State University
14. Will Hastings - Auburn
15. Will Hefley - Tulsa
16. Reed Rickenbach - Memphis
17. Cruz Williams - Louisiana Tech
18. Caden Haws - BYU
19. Tre Bruce - Army
20. Dirk Tanner - Louisiana Tech
21. Neal Barlow - Arkansas
22. Austin Noonan - Army
23. Aaron Langford - Arkansas State University
24. Matt Stoltz - LSU
25. Stephen Green - North Carolina
26. Jonathan Luigs - Arkansas
27. Justin Charette - Ole Miss
28. Robert Ator - Air Force
There are a few on their current roster that will be D-1 also. Keep in mind, this school should be competing in 3A with their enrollment. The whole "PA is just average like everyone else and they win because of the system and coaching" is just not true. That helps, sure. I believe Batesville has 1-3 d-1 players in about the same amount of time.
Hope these aren't just "innuendos" and that I'm not being a disgrace to my profession by posting these numbers.
4, 8, 11, 13 (?), 14, 16, 27 were all walk-ons. But when you have a winning program, kids get looked at more consistently. A few of the others may have been walk-ons as well. That being said you are also missing a couple of walk-ons to Arkansas in Adam Pierce and Matt Kolb.
I just want to thank PA for spanking Wynne back to reality...
Overwhelming majority started at PA in grade school.
Yes, the discussion was about recruiting.
being a walk on isnt the issue. Being a D1 player is. If they walked on and made the squad, them they are a D1 athlete. Who's that guy that was at Arkansas that walked on the I think they made a movie about him, you know went on to sign with the NFL.
Say what you mean. Are you saying that PA has talent on each team? I agree. Are you trying to say there's no way that PA had those players without recruiting them? Then say that and we can address that.
And Harvard is not a D1 football school.
Also, the kid that set the record today for most TD receptions in the state championship game is going to an Ivy League school. Likely not one senior on this team plays D1 (though one does have an offer).
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 03, 2016, 04:55:59 pm
being a walk on isnt the issue. Being a D1 player is. If they walked on and made the squad, them they are a D1 athlete. Who's that guy that was at Arkansas that walked on the I think they made a movie about him, you know went on to sign with the NFL.
Most who walked-on did not play.
The point is they made the squad on a D1 team. I'm saying they aint average joes. You know like some would have us beleive. I'm not knocking it or criticizing I'm complementing. You boys just seem to want to claim you win with no real talent.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 03, 2016, 05:06:47 pm
The point is they made the squad on a D1 team. I'm saying they aint average joes. You know like some would have us beleive. I'm not knocking it or criticizing I'm complementing. You boys just seem to want to claim you win with no real talent.
Actually, the sensitivity that you perceive is the insinuation that PA wins with better talent that it acquires improperly. I agree PA has better players than most other 5A teams. But much of that is them being a product of the system for 6-9 or more years.
Actually, I would like to respond to your most recent comment, but I have no idea what you meant by that most inarticulately written sentence. Translation, please.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 03, 2016, 05:27:39 pm
Actually, I would like to respond to your most recent comment, but I have no idea what you meant by that most inarticulately written sentence. Translation, please.
Give me your grade reading level and I'll try again where you can get it.
So, you are asking about my Lexile score. I assure you my "grade reading level" is not in question, but your writing skill is. So maybe you should try again! Practice makes perfect!
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 03, 2016, 04:58:46 pm
Say what you mean. Are you saying that PA has talent on each team? I agree. Are you trying to say there's no way that PA had those players without recruiting them? Then say that and we can address that.
And Harvard is not a D1 football school.
Also, the kid that set the record today for most TD receptions in the state championship game is going to an Ivy League school. Likely not one senior on this team plays D1 (though one does have an offer).
Ivy league is D1 - FCS although they do not give scholarships
I just don't see it. They have no one on this years squad that would have D1 coaches parked out their house. Just well coached. And if they are giving financial aid to out of district players surely someone would have produced proof. Something like that would cause an uproar. For such a high visibility program to do that would be an easy catch. PA is hated statewide, whenever you have that kind of success your going to be hated. With such a big spotlight on them it would be quite easy to trip them up if they were in fact recruiting. Again, there are no ringers on this years team. The only one would be that huge OT, and you know offensive lineman are recruited by potential, not accomplishments. 6'6 is unlimited potential. You can't coach size.
Quote from: Overdahill on December 03, 2016, 06:12:51 pm
Ivy league is D1 - FCS although they do not give scholarships
Ok, I didn't know that. One Ivy League commit on this year's team so far.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 03, 2016, 05:27:39 pm
Actually, I would like to respond to your most recent comment, but I have no idea what you meant by that most inarticulately written sentence. Translation, please.
My point is this, I don't hear PA claim it wins without talent. PA definitely has produced more college players than any other 5A school in the last 10 years. What you do hear from PA fans is a defense of the manner in which these players come to the school. Some claim that because they have so many D1 players from a 5A school, that means they are doing it in an improper manner. That last point is strongly disputed by PA fans.
With that said, if you took the 10 best athletes in today's game, more than 5 of them would have played for Wynne. Not players, but athletes.
Quote from: JessieP on December 03, 2016, 06:40:24 pm
I just don't see it. They have no one on this years squad that would have D1 coaches parked out their house. Just well coached. And if they are giving financial aid to out of district players surely someone would have produced proof. Something like that would cause an uproar. For such a high visibility program to do that would be an easy catch. PA is hated statewide, whenever you have that kind of success your going to be hated. With such a big spotlight on them it would be quite easy to trip them up if they were in fact recruiting. Again, there are no ringers on this years team. The only one would be that huge OT, and you know offensive lineman are recruited by potential, not accomplishments. 6'6 is unlimited potential. You can't coach size.
C'mon man. You surely know this happens. Even PA people will admit that several athletes receive financial assistance...it's awarded by a third party who reviews it and awards it based on need. And what proof do you want us to get? Request the financial information from the school? Privates have a lot of protections afforded to them..but the AAA could make them disclose a lot of information by making it a requirement to participate in the voluntary association.
I didn't post this to accuse them of recruiting. I only posted to show how absurd it is that some people actually say PA is winning because of their system. They are winning because they have more athletes. For you PA people who continue to defend PA, kudos. That's what you're supposed to do. For you to say that these athletes become d-1 because they are coached up to it, that's just not true. PA, and almost every private school, has a multitude of advantages when compared to public schools. It's clear the AAA isn't going to do anything about it. Since 2003, a private school has won in at least one class all but 3 years.
30 d-1 players from PA since 2003. 6-9 on each roster who compete for a championship. That's insane! Numbers don't lie. And Jessie...you surely know they have some d-1 players on their roster. I bet they have at least 3-6.
Quote from: Complete Biased PoV on December 03, 2016, 03:53:05 pm
4, 8, 11, 13 (?), 14, 16, 27 were all walk-ons. But when you have a winning program, kids get looked at more consistently. A few of the others may have been walk-ons as well. That being said you are also missing a couple of walk-ons to Arkansas in Adam Pierce and Matt Kolb.
It's a running list. I added the two you told me. Any others I've left off? Should I include all FCS d-1 also, like UCA?
Annnnnnd.....I'll just bump this thread.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 07:02:38 pm
Annnnnnd.....I'll just bump this thread.
NO!!!!!!!!!!
This topic is about like:
Arkansas vs Arkansas state.
The great stadium debate.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 06:57:44 pm
C'mon man. You surely know this happens. Even PA people will admit that several athletes receive financial assistance...it's awarded by a third party who reviews it and awards it based on need. And what proof do you want us to get? Request the financial information from the school? Privates have a lot of protections afforded to them..but the AAA could make them disclose a lot of information by making it a requirement to participate in the voluntary association.
I didn't post this to accuse them of recruiting. I only posted to show how absurd it is that some people actually say PA is winning because of their system. They are winning because they have more athletes. For you PA people who continue to defend PA, kudos. That's what you're supposed to do. For you to say that these athletes become d-1 because they are coached up to it, that's just not true. PA, and almost every private school, has a multitude of advantages when compared to public schools. It's clear the AAA isn't going to do anything about it. Since 2003, a private school has won in at least one class all but 3 years.
30 d-1 players from PA since 2003. 6-9 on each roster who compete for a championship. That's insane! Numbers don't lie. And Jessie...you surely know they have some d-1 players on their roster. I bet they have at least 3-6.
You keep sitting up this straw man just so you can knock it down. PA posters aren't saying they don't have talent. We do. We have more D1 players than anyone else in 5A. We are saying we don't recruit, which we don't.
Regarding financial aid, every player is required to pay at least 50%, which is about $6,000 per year. More non-athletes receive financial aid by percentage than do athletes. That is a fact.
Through the last 16 years, there has been at least one private state champion in one of the classes all but three years (2013, 2007, 2005). Every other year, a private school has won the title in one of the classifications. In 2015 and 2008, two of the champions were private schools. Now, 13/16 is equal to 81.3 percent. 81.3 percent of those years, we have had a private school champion in at least one classification.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 03, 2016, 07:04:45 pm
You keep sitting up this straw man just so you can knock it down. PA posters aren't saying they don't have talent. We do. We have more D1 players than anyone else in 5A. We are saying we don't recruit, which we don't.
Regarding financial aid, every player is required to pay at least 50%, which is about $6,000 per year. More non-athletes receive financial aid by percentage than do athletes. That is a fact.
Yet, well over 60 percent of students in "extra curricular activities" receive tuition assistance.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 07:02:38 pm
Annnnnnd.....I'll just bump this thread.
It's funny my jacket hasn't even dried out from a PA three-peat and this thread is revived. Maybe if Batesville hadn't laid down and taken a few beatings from PA and Wynne, this guy wouldn't be so salty. You should be glad, you played a private school a lot closer than you did little old public school Wynne.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 07:06:33 pm
Yet, well over 60 percent of students in "extra curricular activities" receive tuition assistance.
Ok. None more than 50%, so the least anyone pays is $6,000. And a smaller percentage than non-athletes.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 03, 2016, 07:07:38 pm
It's funny my jacket hasn't even dried out from a PA three-peat and this thread is revived. Maybe if Batesville hadn't laid down and taken a few beatings from PA and Wynne, this guy wouldn't be so salty. You should be glad, you played a private school a lot closer than you did little old public school Wynne.
Why did you have to deal with a wet jacket? I thought you would have changed that thing at half or something.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 03, 2016, 07:08:32 pm
Ok. None more than 50%, so the least anyone pays is $6,000. And a smaller percentage than non-athletes.
I am not sure what you mean. I would like you to show me that everyone has to pay at least half tuition though. I haven't read that anywhere. I'm sure it's true, but I would just like to read about it. I don't understand your point still, even if it is true.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 03, 2016, 07:04:05 pm
NO!!!!!!!!!!
This topic is about like:
Arkansas vs Arkansas state.
The great stadium debate.
Lol. And rightfully so!
Wow. Astounding amount of D1 players in that timeframe (2003-present). PA clearly has superior talent in 5A. No more PA folks can make that claim. They might not have the most raw talent every match up. This explains the level of success. The system of PA would not be successful in many schools. Schools with intelligent, exceptional athletes can make it work well though.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 07:10:01 pm
Why did you have to deal with a wet jacket? I thought you would have changed that thing at half or something.
Pick a uniform, they both outscored Wynne for the game.
LOL, that's funny stuff. So you are admitting that athletes are receiving financial support. I didn't think that could happen and still play sports? I guess that is some other state.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 03, 2016, 07:27:27 pm
LOL, that's funny stuff. So you are admitting that athletes are receiving financial support. I didn't think that could happen and still play sports? I guess that is some other state.
You thought wrong. Or maybe you read the rule and just didn't understand it.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 03, 2016, 07:27:27 pm
LOL, that's funny stuff. So you are admitting that athletes are receiving financial support. I didn't think that could happen and still play sports? I guess that is some other state.
I know of at least one state that won't allow private schools who allow athletes to receive financial aid to compete against public schools in the playoffs.
Does seem a bit odd that they can.
(http://static.srcdn.com/slir/w620-h320-q90-c620:320/wp-content/uploads/Tom-Cruise-in-Edge-of-Tomorrow-Reviews.jpg)
I don't know. But if they are helping out football players with financial aid then yes, it taints everything. I will give them the benefit of the doubt but IF it's true they should not be playing against public schools and yes, it is cheating.
Let's just say, for the sake of this thread (and for over sensitive PA fans), that PA and other private schools don't recruit. I'm going to list some advantages privates have.
1. No geographic boundary.
2. Ability to only admit selected students (provides for more of a selective group of athletes).
3. Wealthier backgrounds (afford private lessons, better training, etc.)
4. Greater parental involvement
5. Typically (and I know, some public schools have outstanding facilities), better facilities and greater access to these facilities..especially during the summers.
6. Changing Uniforms at half when you're too cold and wet
There are probably some more advantages. For those of you that are bored, this is an interesting read. I pulled most of these advantages from it:
http://www.jamsport.org/Johnsonetal2015%20JAS%20PDF.pdf
Also, through the last 16 years, there has been at least one private state champion in one of the classes all but three years (2013, 2007, 2005). Every other year, a private school has won the title in one of the classifications. In 2015 and 2008, two of the champions were private schools. Now, 13/16 is equal to 81.3 percent. 81.3 percent of those years, we have had a private school champion in at least one classification.
Additionally, PA has had 30+ D-1 players since 2003. This is an average of 2-3 per year, giving them 6-9 D-1 football players on each team that competes for the state championship. Of course, according to PA fans, these guys were D-1 because they were coached up to it. They only win because of the system ::)
Seven, would you mind posting a Tom Cruise pic on this thread? Thanks
AirWarren, this thread is also for you! I know you love this debate.
I'll sit back and read the comments. Probably won't post much, so I'll just enjoy the show. PA Dad, Red Devil, Yellowcake, Overdahill, Complete Biased, Maynard, it's been fun. Sorry to those PA fans I didn't give a shout out to.
PA Dad and Yellowcake, I know neither of you are fans of most of the things I say about PA, but I look forward to meeting both of you. I'm sure we will cross paths at some point in the future.
Quote from: JessieP on December 03, 2016, 07:51:55 pm
I don't know. But if they are helping out football players with financial aid then yes, it taints everything. I will give them the benefit of the doubt but IF it's true they should not be playing against public schools and yes, it is cheating.
If the rules say you can do it, is it cheating?
I agree that the first 5 you listed are advantages that PA has that few (if any) other 5A schools enjoy.
I enjoy all of your posts, even those critical of PA. But I reserve the right to challenge you when you're wrong.
I really don't understand the reason for this thread unless it's just to bash PA. This has been discussed ad nauseoum. I, and other fans from private schools, have consistently admitted that private schools have advantages over public schools. That's why PA plays up two classifications.
Since we admit your point, and always have, what's the purpose of this thread?
Don't know about all the recruiting rumors but it is hard to compete with a unlimited budget. Where public schools during the offseason have to compete in 7 on7 with surrounding small schools because of budget issues and the same goes for team camps. Schools like pa can travel all over the country and compete against the best in the nation and we all know that competition does nothing but makes you better. Same goes for non-conference games. All of that traveling gets kids more exposure which would lead to more scholarships. Not sure if a particular private school calling a top athlete in earle mother that she also happens to be a teacher to offer her a teaching job as recruiting. Maybe they teach a different definition of recruiting at private schools than they do public schools
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 06:57:44 pm
C'mon man. You surely know this happens. Even PA people will admit that several athletes receive financial assistance...it's awarded by a third party who reviews it and awards it based on need. And what proof do you want us to get? Request the financial information from the school? Privates have a lot of protections afforded to them..but the AAA could make them disclose a lot of information by making it a requirement to participate in the voluntary association.
I didn't post this to accuse them of recruiting. I only posted to show how absurd it is that some people actually say PA is winning because of their system. They are winning because they have more athletes. For you PA people who continue to defend PA, kudos. That's what you're supposed to do. For you to say that these athletes become d-1 because they are coached up to it, that's just not true. PA, and almost every private school, has a multitude of advantages when compared to public schools. It's clear the AAA isn't going to do anything about it. Since 2003, a private school has won in at least one class all but 3 years.
30 d-1 players from PA since 2003. 6-9 on each roster who compete for a championship. That's insane! Numbers don't lie. And Jessie...you surely know they have some d-1 players on their roster. I bet they have at least 3-6.
MDX, you do well when you deal with facts. But you get in trouble spouting opinions with no factual support.
Receiving financial aid is not recruiting. It is perfectly legal. For you to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. You have no proof, and even admit that, but you want to make it out to be illegal/dishonest. It's not, and it's wrong for you to suggest otherwise.
If PA doesn't develope it's athletes into D-1players, how is it that they have so many? I will bet you $1000 that more than 90% of PA's D-1 players were at PA since grade school. Is PA just lucky to get those grade schoolers who are destined to become D-1? Or, are the PA coaches so good that they can recognize D-1 talent in grade school and recruit them early?
I understand jealousy of success. But, don't spout opinions and innuendo that has no factual support. If you have the facts, give them to us.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 03, 2016, 08:11:05 pm
I enjoy all of your posts, even those critical of PA. But I reserve the right to challenge you when you're wrong.
I really don't understand the reason for this thread unless it's just to bash PA. This has been discussed ad nauseoum. I, and other fans from private schools, have consistently admitted that private schools have advantages over public schools. That's why PA plays up two classifications.
Since we admit your point, and always have, what's the purpose of this thread?
Although making a thread strictly to bash PA is something I would do, i guess it's more of a farewell thread. Grouping it all together for everyone and then telling you fellas goodbye for the winter. I guess another point is to see people's opinions on how to fix it. To see if there are other ways besides the multiplier. Are the advantages so drastic that it merits separating the divisions? Using a success based model for classifications? Limiting participation only to privates who don't give financial aid to athletes? I'll hang up and listen.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 03, 2016, 08:27:11 pm
MDX, you do well when you deal with facts. But you get in trouble spouting opinions with no factual support.
Receiving financial aid is not recruiting. It is perfectly legal. For you to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. You have no proof, and even admit that, but you want to make it out to be illegal/dishonest. It's not, and it's wrong for you to suggest otherwise.
If PA doesn't developer it's athletes into D-1players, how is it that they have so many? I will bet you $1000 that more than 90% of PA's D-1 players were ar PA since grade school. Is PA just lucky to get those grade schoolers who are destined to become D-1? Or, is the PA coaches so good that they can recognize D-1 talent in grade school and recruit them early?
I understand jealousy of success. But, don't spout opinions and innuendo that has no factual support. If you have the facts, give them to us.
I would like access to more information, but unfortunately the privates have a large shield afforded to them.
I spout opinions because this is a message board. Im not moving for summary judgment. I can voice opinions without any evidence at all on here. That's the beauty of a message board. If we only dealt with facts on here, 99 percent of posts wouldn't be allowed. I like making accusatory statements without any facts or evidence in order to see the sensitivity of Pa posters. It's amusing. You keep questioning and being critical of me like this is my profession. I assure yoU, I'll be okay at what I do. I won't be near as good as you are at our professions most likely, but I'll do my best to only apply facts and legal analysis without any opinions when I practice. With that being said, you guys have a nice winter! I'll see most of y'all on the basketball and soccer threads in the spring.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 08:36:21 pm
I would like access to more information, but unfortunately the privates have a large shield afforded to them.
I spout opinions because this is a message board. Im not moving for summary judgment. I can voice opinions without any evidence at all on here. That's the beauty of a message board. If we only dealt with facts on here, 99 percent of posts wouldn't be allowed. I like making accusatory statements without any facts or evidence in order to see the sensitivity of Pa posters. It's amusing. You keep questioning and being critical of me like this is my profession. I assure yoU, I'll be okay at what I do. I won't be near as good as you are at our professions most likely, but I'll do my best to only apply facts and legal analysis without any opinions when I practice. With that being said, you guys have a nice winter! I'll see most of y'all on the basketball and soccer threads in the spring.
so you make things up without a factual basis in order to provoke a reaction. There's a name for that, similar to the mythical creature that lives under a bridge.
Let's not forget with that unlimited budget private schools can afford to pay assistant coaches what most public schools pay their head coaches therefore also getting better quality coaching. Also the private lessons that players receive. Just do not think in today's economy and the tight budget constraint that public education system is in that public schools should have to compete with private schools in any exta curricular activities.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 08:36:21 pm
I would like access to more information, but unfortunately the privates have a large shield afforded to them.
I spout opinions because this is a message board. Im not moving for summary judgment. I can voice opinions without any evidence at all on here. That's the beauty of a message board. If we only dealt with facts on here, 99 percent of posts wouldn't be allowed. I like making accusatory statements without any facts or evidence in order to see the sensitivity of Pa posters. It's amusing. You keep questioning and being critical of me like this is my profession. I assure yoU, I'll be okay at what I do. I won't be near as good as you are at our professions most likely, but I'll do my best to only apply facts and legal analysis without any opinions when I practice. With that being said, you guys have a nice winter! I'll see most of y'all on the basketball and soccer threads in the spring.
Well,at least you're honest enough to admit your opinions are not based on facts. So why should anyone pay any attention to them?
I believe the earth is flat. I hope everyone agrees with me.
Is it just coincidental that you start all this on the day PA wins its third in a row. Maybe a little jealousy?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 03, 2016, 08:11:05 pm
I enjoy all of your posts, even those critical of PA. But I reserve the right to challenge you when you're wrong.
I really don't understand the reason for this thread unless it's just to bash PA. This has been discussed ad nauseoum. I, and other fans from private schools, have consistently admitted that private schools have advantages over public schools. That's why PA plays up two classifications.
Since we admit your point, and always have, what's the purpose of this thread?
While I really don't like this discussion, you mention that you play up 2 classifications. I would have to think it is somewhat of a record that with your 3a enrollent, that you have possibly 70-75% of your male student athletes playing football. I also would imagine that there is not another 3a team school in the
US that has such depth, talent and success year to year. If the coaching staff is that good at developing, they would already have moved on.
Quote from: 86jacketstchamps on December 03, 2016, 09:27:09 pm
While I really don't like this discussion, you mention that you play up 2 classifications. I would have to think it is somewhat of a record that with your 3a enrollent, that you have possibly 70-75% of your male student athletes playing football. I also would imagine that there is not another 3a team school in the
US that has such depth, talent and success year to year. If the coaching staff is that good at developing, they would already have moved on.
Interesting point.
PA obviously had an exceptional coaching staff. They are well respected, have been approached to speak/give insight to their practices multiple times, and produce prolific teams year in and year out. They are very good at what they do. The comment made by 86jacket is interesting though. Why wouldn't these PA coaches, or CKK in particular, have moved on to a higher level?
On a separate note, Did the PA players actually change uniforms at halftime or is that a topic being used to troll PA fans on this forum? Serious question.
Quote from: Wonderdog on December 03, 2016, 09:39:37 pm
PA obviously had an exceptional coaching staff. They are well respected, have been approached to speak/give insight to their practices multiple times, and produce prolific teams year in and year out. They are very good at what they do. The comment made by 86jacket is interesting though. Why wouldn't these PA coaches, or CKK in particular, have moved on to a higher level?
On a separate note, Did the PA players actually change uniforms at halftime or is that a topic being used to troll PA fans on this forum? Serious question.
They did change uniforms.
Short answer is no college has been willing to give Kelley control to implement his full system.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 03, 2016, 09:42:00 pm
They did change uniforms.
Short answer is no college has been willing to give Kelley control to implement his full system.
Thanks for the insight.
Man, there is so much misinformation on this thread, it would take two days to refute it, and even then it wouldn't be accepted. People are just going to hate.
PA is an excellent academic school, full of a lot of really good kids and parents. They also are pretty decent at athletics. They aren't perfect, but then again, that's a matter reserved for Jesus Christ.
You can hate on the fans and the kids all you want. But, in the end, they are just people. People just like you. Maybe get to know some of them, rather than spread a bunch of false information about them in an effort to cause a reaction or make others share in your hate.
Whatever the motivation, I hope you are reserving it to message boards, rather than teaching your kids this is the right way for adults to act.
It's kind of pathetic.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 07:31:06 pm
I know of at least one state that won't allow private schools who allow athletes to receive financial aid to compete against public schools in the playoffs.
Then move your family to that one state. Remove the inequities that seem to consume your waking thoughts.
Maybe that will bring you some happiness. Because if staying in Arkansas with a happiness action plan that relies on PA losing in spades in athletics, well, that's a very poor plan.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 07:53:10 pm
....Seven, would you mind posting a Tom Cruise pic on this thread? Thanks...
Happy to be of assistance!
Quote from: PA Dad on December 03, 2016, 08:11:05 pm
I enjoy all of your posts, even those critical of PA. But I reserve the right to challenge you when you're wrong.
I really don't understand the reason for this thread unless it's just to bash PA. This has been discussed ad nauseoum. I, and other fans from private schools, have consistently admitted that private schools have advantages over public schools. That's why PA plays up two classifications.
Since we admit your point, and always have, what's the purpose of this thread?
PA Dad,
I do think there is one relevant question that hasn't been addressed here. Why does PA play at the 5A classification level? I know you personally aren't responsible for making that decision, but given the current environment in which PA participates, it does seem that PA would be better off doing what LR Catholic does and play at the 7A classification.
Are you (or anyone connected to PA) aware of any thought or consideration to PA moving to a higher classification?
Just curious.
Great thread topic that holds interest to the majority of public schools, I would assume.
If and when the Wynne Coaches noticed the heated tents could they have not addressed the issue with the refs before kick-off? If PA competes under AAA guidelines to win a State Title is there anything in the handbook to suggest that this is a luxury and not a necessity? All are governed by the same rules when playing for a state title....even PA. Fair is Fair.
Also, I believe in years past that Booneville has changed uniforms at half-time before....could be wrong but seems like they have.
You can also make the point, like many have before that the word recruiting is subjective. Most private schools have a wonderful website displayed for all to see...highlighting the school in the upmost positive way, not to mention all the features and benefits. Many kids, parents and grandparents often attended a private school and it creates a word of mouth or personal experience advantage for life long commitment. Is that the private schools fault? All interesting points MDXPHD and others make.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 04, 2016, 07:55:03 am
PA Dad,
I do think there is one relevant question that hasn't been addressed here. Why does PA play at the 5A classification level? I know you personally aren't responsible for making that decision, but given the current environment in which PA participates, it does seem that PA would be better off doing what LR Catholic does and play at the 7A classification.
Are you (or anyone connected to PA) aware of any thought or consideration to PA moving to a higher classification?
Just curious.
Im not an insider but I believe the biggest issue is that it would have to apply to all sports and not just football and that travel would be a major problem for some of the other sports
Quote from: Overdahill on December 04, 2016, 08:38:15 am
Im not an insider but I believe the biggest issue is that it would have to apply to all sports and not just football and that travel would be a major problem for some of the other sports
Travel?? As opposed to what other schools have to travel?
Sure. If there were more schools in 6A or 7A as in 5A it wouldn't be so far to travel i. e. you could have a central conference that didn't extend to Fort Smith in one direction or West Memphis in the other. It seems to me that 6A schools have chosen to travel further by not combining with 7A
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 04, 2016, 07:55:03 am
PA Dad,
I do think there is one relevant question that hasn't been addressed here. Why does PA play at the 5A classification level? I know you personally aren't responsible for making that decision, but given the current environment in which PA participates, it does seem that PA would be better off doing what LR Catholic does and play at the 7A classification.
Are you (or anyone connected to PA) aware of any thought or consideration to PA moving to a higher classification?
Just curious.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 04, 2016, 07:55:03 am
PA Dad,
I do think there is one relevant question that hasn't been addressed here. Why does PA play at the 5A classification level? I know you personally aren't responsible for making that decision, but given the current environment in which PA participates, it does seem that PA would be better off doing what LR Catholic does and play at the 7A classification.
Are you (or anyone connected to PA) aware of any thought or consideration to PA moving to a higher classification?
PA is a much much smaller school than Catholic. PA already plays up two classifications (it is supposed to be in 4A under the AAA private school rules). Coach Kelley asked for this when an extra spot opened in 5A.
Just curious.
Quote from: Overdahill on December 04, 2016, 08:38:15 am
Im not an insider but I believe the biggest issue is that it would have to apply to all sports and not just football and that travel would be a major problem for some of the other sports
Dude...they went to Utah this year
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 04, 2016, 07:55:03 am
PA Dad,
I do think there is one relevant question that hasn't been addressed here. Why does PA play at the 5A classification level? I know you personally aren't responsible for making that decision, but given the current environment in which PA participates, it does seem that PA would be better off doing what LR Catholic does and play at the 7A classification.
Are you (or anyone connected to PA) aware of any thought or consideration to PA moving to a higher classification?
Just curious.
I have advocated that PA move up for a while now. But, I don't know if Kelley or the administration is considering it. I also don't know if it is possible. Can a school move up just because it wants to?
I'd love to see it happen.
Quote from: purpleswag on December 04, 2016, 10:09:38 am
Dude...they went to Utah this year
Thanks for the insight Dude ::) I was addressing all season, all sports, not one or two football games
Quote from: PA Dad on December 04, 2016, 10:34:44 am
I have advocated that PA move up for a while now. But, I don't know if Kelley or the administration is considering it. I also don't know if it is possible. Can a school move up just because it wants to?
I'd love to see it happen.
I know they can request to move up for the next cycle - and if I recall correctly, a school has to be willing to move down to match. But that has been done before I believe. I do know Huntsville was giddy over moving back to the 4A after their recent stint in 5A - mainly due to the travel involved.
Obviously though, a request does not guarantee it will occur.
.
More than 2/3's of Fearless Friday members picked Wynne to beat PA on the poll posted. If you take out PA posters, the number was likely more than 3/4. Then PA goes out and destroys Wynne, setting a record for the most yards in championship game history without really trying in the 4th quarter.
Is the story "wow, PA was better than I thought" or "what a great performance"? No, people are now worried about tents and uniforms.
I'm assuming PA has more money than Wynne and most other 5A schools. How should PA handle that? Forego things that are legal and only spend what their opponents spend? Do we all just find out how much JA Fair spends on football and that is everyone's budget? (Because I assure you Wynne spends a lot more than Fair). Is it unfair that Wynne spends more money on football than most of their own conference? Does that diminish their season?
These seniors went their entire careers and never lost in the state of Arkansas. That's a big deal that the PA community is celebrating. The rest is noise.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 04, 2016, 02:29:49 pm
More than 2/3's of Fearless Friday members picked Wynne to beat PA on the poll posted. If you take out PA posters, the number was likely more than 3/4. Then PA goes out and destroys Wynne, setting a record for the most yards in championship game history without really trying in the 4th quarter.
Is the story "wow, PA was better than I thought" or "what a great performance"? No, people are now worried about tents and uniforms.
I'm assuming PA has more money than Wynne and most other 5A schools. How should PA handle that? Forego things that are legal and only spend what their opponents spend? Do we all just find out how much JA Fair spends on football and that is everyone's budget? (Because I assure you Wynne spends a lot more than Fair). Is it unfair that Wynne spends more money on football than most of their own conference? Does that diminish their season?
These seniors went their entire careers and never lost in the state of Arkansas. That's a big deal that the PA community is celebrating. The rest is noise.
https://youtu.be/MQ4YJpG3Zvo
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 03, 2016, 11:21:17 pm
Then move your family to that one state. Remove the inequities that seem to consume your waking thoughts.
Maybe that will bring you some happiness. Because if staying in Arkansas with a happiness action plan that relies on PA losing in spades in athletics, well, that's a very poor plan.
The thing is that regardless of how it is spun or discussed, the way things are between private and public are not level playing fields. I do not doubt that a lot of those young men for PA have been there since grade school. The difference is that they are not required to live in a certain jurisdiction. So families that have athletics in mind while raising kids (and don't say this isn't taken into consideration) can enroll their kids here without the added strain of moving into that schools district. I am not making excuses, not one bit, but for someone to argue that it is a level playing field....well that's wrong. I also think they should play down to what their enrollment suggests. If they played in 3AAA, according to their enrollment, I have a feeling things would be quite different.
Quote from: 86jacketstchamps on December 04, 2016, 03:36:19 pm
The thing is that regardless of how it is spun or discussed, the way things are between private and public are not level playing fields. I do not doubt that a lot of those young men for PA have been there since grade school. The difference is that they are not required to live in a certain jurisdiction. So families that have athletics in mind while raising kids (and don't say this isn't taken into consideration) can enroll their kids here without the added strain of moving into that schools district. I am not making excuses, not one bit, but for someone to argue that it is a level playing field....well that's wrong. I also think they should play down to what their enrollment suggests. If they played in 3AAA, according to their enrollment, I have a feeling things would be quite different.
I don't understand your last sentence.
It's interesting that the FF polls were wrong in all three games played to date. The polls picked NLR, Greenwood and Wynne to win.
Maybe we're not as football savvy as we think.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 04, 2016, 01:12:29 pm
I know they can request to move up for the next cycle - and if I recall correctly, a school has to be willing to move down to match. But that has been done before I believe. I do know Huntsville was giddy over moving back to the 4A after their recent stint in 5A - mainly due to the travel involved.
Obviously though, a request does not guarantee it will occur.
So if PA petitioned to move to 7A, would a 7A school have to agree to move down to 5A? What school would do that? And how would the 5A schools react to having a 7A school in 5A?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 04, 2016, 04:04:25 pm
So if PA petitioned to move to 7A, would a 7A school have to agree to move down to 5A? What school would do that? And how would the 5A schools react to having a 7A school in 5A?
My opinion, take it for what its worth....
I THINK what he is saying is....
Lets say Greenwood is the lowest enrollment school in 6A. PA petitions to move up to 6A. Greenwood would have to consent to moving down to 5A in order for their to be an available spot in 6A for PA to then assume the role of.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 04, 2016, 03:54:48 pm
It's interesting that the FF polls were wrong in all three games played to date. The polls picked NLR, Greenwood and Wynne to win.
Maybe we're not as football savvy as we think.
That makes me feel a little better. I went 2/3 incorrectly predicting the 6A game. :D
Quote from: Wonderdog on December 04, 2016, 04:19:49 pm
That makes me feel a little better. I went 2/3 incorrectly predicting the 6A game. :D
Hooten's only went1/3 getting the 5A game right so don't feel bad at all :)
Quote from: Wonderdog on December 04, 2016, 04:18:31 pm
My opinion, take it for what its worth....
I THINK what he is saying is....
Lets say Greenwood is the lowest enrollment school in 6A. PA petitions to move up to 6A. Greenwood would have to consent to moving down to 5A in order for their to be an available spot in 6A for PA to then assume the role of.
I agree that's how it would work to move to 6A. But Seven is talking about PA moving to 7A.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 04, 2016, 02:29:49 pm
More than 2/3's of Fearless Friday members picked Wynne to beat PA on the poll posted. If you take out PA posters, the number was likely more than 3/4. Then PA goes out and destroys Wynne, setting a record for the most yards in championship game history without really trying in the 4th quarter.
Is the story "wow, PA was better than I thought" or "what a great performance"? No, people are now worried about tents and uniforms.
I'm assuming PA has more money than Wynne and most other 5A schools. How should PA handle that? Forego things that are legal and only spend what their opponents spend? Do we all just find out how much JA Fair spends on football and that is everyone's budget? (Because I assure you Wynne spends a lot more than Fair). Is it unfair that Wynne spends more money on football than most of their own conference? Does that diminish their season?
At the same time Red Devil Alum, you can't entirely discount the effect money and assets have on the football environment for PA.
Let's also acknowledge the AAA Rules and Procedures were written long ago when situations like this likely didn't exist.
To be fair, there's always been disparities between schools - and there always will be.
This is NOT a slam (manifest or latent) at PA, but when you have the advantage in assets they do, accomplishments are viewed through that lens.
Quote
These seniors went their entire careers and never lost in the state of Arkansas. That's a big deal that the PA community is celebrating. The rest is noise.
That accomplishment must be viewed within the frameworks it was achieved in.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 04, 2016, 04:04:25 pm
So if PA petitioned to move to 7A, would a 7A school have to agree to move down to 5A? What school would do that? And how would the 5A schools react to having a 7A school in 5A?
I think there would need to be a corresponding trickle down of teams.
To be specific, a 7A team would agree to move to 6A, and a 6A team would agree to move to 5A.
I have an honest question. When Greenwood won three in a row, was GW accused of recruiting? Were they accused of having resources other schools in the classification didn't have? Were there suggestions that they move up a classification?
I wasn't on FF back then so I don't know the answers. Just curious.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 04, 2016, 05:00:05 pm
I think there would need to be a corresponding trickle down of teams.
To be specific, a 7A team would agree to move to 6A, and a 6A team would agree to move to 5A.
That makes sense.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 04, 2016, 05:00:14 pm
I have an honest question. When Greenwood won three in a row, was GW accused of recruiting? Were they accused of having resources other schools in the classification didn't have? Were there suggestions that they move up a classification?
I wasn't on FF back then so I don't know the answers. Just curious.
That's a very good question and as someone who has been around here for a bit, I can tell you with certainty there was discussion and consideration of the advantages Greenwood had going for them. Their proximity to Fort Smith, the transferring of students into Greenwood, and other subjects were frequently mentioned and discussed.
There was some discussion about moving up in classification as well - but some of that sort of took care of itself when Greenwood moved to 6A.
PA Dad - among the many factors this subject brings up, one of them is the use of student counts (alone) to determine classifications. It is NOT a perfect system to be sure, and using those numbers alone simply isn't enough of a calculation to produce equitable classifications. I wish there were a better way to determine classifications....
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 04, 2016, 05:05:50 pm
That's a very good question and as someone who has been around here for a bit, I can tell you with certainty there was discussion and consideration of the advantages Greenwood had going for them. Their proximity to Fort Smith, the transferring of students into Greenwood, and other subjects were frequently mentioned and discussed.
There was some discussion about moving up in classification as well - but some of that sort of took care of itself when Greenwood moved to 6A.
PA Dad - among the many factors this subject brings up, one of them is the use of student counts (alone) to determine classifications. It is NOT a perfect system to be sure, and using those numbers alone simply isn't enough of a calculation to produce equitable classifications. I wish there were a better way to determine classifications....
I agree with you on how classifications are determined.
I would like to see PA play teams that could beat them. Watching a competitive game is much more fun than watching one team dominate another. I left most PA games at halftime this year because the game was already decided. That's no fun.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 04, 2016, 04:58:07 pm
At the same time Red Devil Alum, you can't entirely discount the effect money and assets have on the football environment for PA.
Let's also acknowledge the AAA Rules and Procedures were written long ago when situations like this likely didn't exist.
To be fair, there's always been disparities between schools - and there always will be.
This is NOT a slam (manifest or latent) at PA, but when you have the advantage in assets they do, accomplishments are viewed through that lens.
That accomplishment must be viewed within the frameworks it was achieved in.
Having money helps. It helps PA for sure. It helps Fayetteville, greenwood, Shiloh, wynne. If there are 32 schools in 5A, there are probably 32 different budgets. Winner may be in the top 5 spent. How do you want to regulate this?
You can put an asterisk by the three-peat if you want. Record book won't show it.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 04, 2016, 03:41:34 pm
I don't understand your last sentence.
If they played in the classification their enrollment suggests, I doubt you would have the same coaching staff or interest in kids from outside the area to play at that level. It would be a much easier level of competition and I doubt it would have the same energy and effort behind the football program.
Quote from: 86jacketstchamps on December 04, 2016, 05:45:00 pm
If they played in the classification their enrollment suggests, I doubt you would have the same coaching staff or interest in kids from outside the area to play at that level. It would be a much easier level of competition and I doubt it would have the same energy and effort behind the football program.
I see your point, and I agree. Bad for fans to, as it is there are only a few competitive games a year.
PA is simply in a perfect situation to produce exceptional teams and they have "capitalized" on the opportunity to do so. Other private schools located in a population center could do the same, if they were so inclined.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
(https://i.imgsafe.org/4789d5a536.jpg)
Quote from: Intelligentsia on December 04, 2016, 08:33:30 pm
PA is simply in a perfect situation to produce exceptional teams and they have "capitalized" on the opportunity to do so. Other private schools located in a population center could do the same, if they were so inclined.
It's so great to see you posting again! Please stay with us.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 09:40:06 am
Here is a list of the average (Division 1) players Kelley has had the privilege of coaching at PA since 2003, I think. I'm sure I'm missing some or I may be wrong on some.
1. Stefan Loucks - Texas Tech
2. Broderick Green - USC
3. Hunter Henry - Arkansas
4. Adam Thrash - Alabama
5. Spencer Keith - Tulsa
6. Fredi Knighten - Arkansas State University
7. Ben Sessions - Harvard
8. Cameron Colbert - Arkansas
9. Jeremy Brady - Tulsa
10. Jason King - Purdue
11. John Aaron Rees - Arkansas
12. Trent Peterson - SE Missouri State
13. Trevor Gillott - Arkansas State University
14. Will Hastings - Auburn
15. Will Hefley - Tulsa
16. Reed Rickenbach - Memphis
17. Cruz Williams - Louisiana Tech
18. Caden Haws - BYU
19. Tre Bruce - Army
20. Dirk Tanner - Louisiana Tech
21. Neal Barlow - Arkansas
22. Austin Noonan - Army
23. Aaron Langford - Arkansas State University
24. Matt Stoltz - LSU
25. Stephen Green - North Carolina
26. Jonathan Luigs - Arkansas
27. Justin Charette - Ole Miss
28. Robert Ator - Air Force
29. Adam Pierce - Arkansas
30. Matt Kolb - Arkansas
There are a few on their current roster that will be D-1 also. Keep in mind, this school should be competing in 3A with their enrollment. The whole "PA is just average like everyone else and they win because of the system and coaching" is just not true. That helps, sure. I believe Batesville has 1-3 d-1 players in about the same amount of time.
Hope these aren't just "innuendos" and that I'm not being a disgrace to my profession by posting these numbers.
To start, I also post info about players going to play college football on FearlessFriday. I am careful to note where and how I got my information. (Which is from official college websites.)
So, 1st question:
How did you get your information?My other concern is how this information is being presented.
How would a similar list for Pine Bluff or Warren or Bentonville or Wynne look?I would LOVE to see a list of football players from the state of Arkansas SIGNING to D1-FBS colleges in the past 5 years. That would be a great measure of PA's talent pool, compared to other high schools. But only the NCAA has access to that data.
For example, if you look at the University of Arkansas football roster RIGHT NOW [12/4/2016], there are two players from Dumas and one from Pulaski Academy. Does that mean Dumas has an advantage in "average" talent?
I think PA is successful because they do a phenomenal job of coaching.
But I also think it is time for PA to move up to 6A.
The simple solution is you have a private league and a public league. Some states have it. Private schools of course will be opposed.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 04, 2016, 09:03:33 pm
The simple solution is you have a private league and a public league. Some states have it. Private schools of course will be opposed.
That wouldn't solve the problem. PA would dominate a private school league.
Greenwood won three in a row. Should they have been relegated to a separate league? What about Barton during their great run?
But the question is about private vs public. Separate them and its done. Nobody but the private schools will worry if PA is dominating other private schools. And so did a few other teams over the history of high school athletics, so? Private vs private, public vs public.
Quote from: Grond on December 04, 2016, 08:46:14 pm
To start, I also post info about players going to play college football on FearlessFriday. I am careful to note where and how I got my information. (Which is from official college websites.)
So, 1st question: How did you get your information?
My other concern is how this information is being presented. How would a similar list for Pine Bluff or Warren or Bentonville or Wynne look?
I would LOVE to see a list of football players from the state of Arkansas SIGNING to D1-FBS colleges in the past 5 years. That would be a great measure of PA's talent pool, compared to other high schools. But only the NCAA has access to that data.
For example, if you look at the University of Arkansas football roster RIGHT NOW [12/4/2016], there are two players from Dumas and one from Pulaski Academy. Does that mean Dumas has an advantage in "average" talent?
I like your posts because you keep them factual.
I agree that PA should move up. The problem with that is what happens when Kelley leaves. When that happens, PA will still be good, but I don't think it will be dominant and I doubt that it could compete in 6A.
Most folks want to attribute PA's success to the advantages private schools have. That is part, but a small part, of the explanation. The real explanation is Kelley and Wood. Without them, PA would be good but not dominant.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 04, 2016, 09:27:22 pm
I like your posts because you keep them factual.
I agree that PA should move up. The problem with that is what happens when Kelley leaves. When that happens, PA will still be good, but I don't think it will be dominant and I doubt that it could compete in 6A.
Most folks want to attribute PA's success to the advantages private schools have. That is part, but a small part, of the explanation. The real explanation is Kelley and Wood. Without them, PA would be good but not dominant.
I agree with this. Kelley and Wood go, things would change. The PA coaches really have been smart in how they do things. They capitalize on everything they get an opportunity to spin to their advantage.
Its obvious that the PA coaches do a good job. At PA. With its advantages as have been discussed. I'm sure they would do well at other schools. So I'm now curious how they would do at some of the really poorly achieving schools? You know the ones with few players, no money and really bad facilities.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 04, 2016, 09:27:06 pm
But the question is about private vs public. Separate them and its done. Nobody but the private schools will worry if PA is dominating other private schools. And so did a few other teams over the history of high school athletics, so? Private vs private, public vs public.
I have been honest in my remarks on this issue. I ask that you do the same.
I think the real problem most folks have is not private schools. It is PA's success.
No one is complaining about Catholic or LRCA or Conway Christian. And if PA was winning 5-6 games a year, no one would be complaining about PA.
When Greenwood was winning three in a row, we heard the same kind of complaints we're now hearing about PA. When Junction City had its great run, I saw the same complaints (JC recruits from LA; JC has players who are 20 years old). Of course, GW and JC are public schools. The common denominator is dominance: it's not whether the school is public or private.
If you're really concerned about privates, start complaining about Catholic and LRCA.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 04, 2016, 09:46:36 pm
Its obvious that the PA coaches do a good job. At PA. With its advantages as have been discussed. I'm sure they would do well at other schools. So I'm now curious how they would do at some of the really poorly achieving schools? You know the ones with few players, no money and really bad facilities.
They would do well but not nearly as well as they do at PA. PA gives them obvious advantages.
But, PA would not do nearly as well without them.
Quote from: Grond on December 04, 2016, 08:46:14 pm
To start, I also post info about players going to play college football on FearlessFriday. I am careful to note where and how I got my information. (Which is from official college websites.)
So, 1st question: How did you get your information?
My other concern is how this information is being presented. How would a similar list for Pine Bluff or Warren or Bentonville or Wynne look?
I would LOVE to see a list of football players from the state of Arkansas SIGNING to D1-FBS colleges in the past 5 years. That would be a great measure of PA's talent pool, compared to other high schools. But only the NCAA has access to that data.
For example, if you look at the University of Arkansas football roster RIGHT NOW [12/4/2016], there are two players from Dumas and one from Pulaski Academy. Does that mean Dumas has an advantage in "average" talent?
I can't speak for other schools but if you listed Wynne players that have moved up, it wouldn't come close to this and it would be over a much longer time frame.
Quote from: Grond on December 04, 2016, 08:46:14 pm
To start, I also post info about players going to play college football on FearlessFriday. I am careful to note where and how I got my information. (Which is from official college websites.)
So, 1st question: How did you get your information?
My other concern is how this information is being presented. How would a similar list for Pine Bluff or Warren or Bentonville or Wynne look?
I would LOVE to see a list of football players from the state of Arkansas SIGNING to D1-FBS colleges in the past 5 years. That would be a great measure of PA's talent pool, compared to other high schools. But only the NCAA has access to that data.
For example, if you look at the University of Arkansas football roster RIGHT NOW [12/4/2016], there are two players from Dumas and one from Pulaski Academy. Does that mean Dumas has an advantage in "average" talent?
He continues to neglect to denote who were walk-ons and/or never made a roster on his list. I called it out the first time but his thread got deleted. Roughly 50% of those 30 people were walk-ons.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 03, 2016, 11:21:17 pm
Then move your family to that one state. Remove the inequities that seem to consume your waking thoughts.
Maybe that will bring you some happiness. Because if staying in Arkansas with a happiness action plan that relies on PA losing in spades in athletics, well, that's a very poor plan.
Wonder who you voted for. Lol
And I'm more of a person who will push for change instead of running from the problem. Whether it be AAA or the legislature, something other than the multiplier needs to be implemented. This will be the last time I post on this board for awhile, but Im a strong believer that the legislature will have to do something about this.
For all of you who say "why aren't you complaining about other schools?" It's not just football. It's other sports as well. This is a football thread, so that's its focus.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 05, 2016, 07:11:40 am
Wonder who you voted for. Lol
And I'm more of a person who will push for change instead of running from the problem. Whether it be AAA or the legislature, something other than the multiplier needs to be implemented. This will be the last time I post on this board for awhile, but Im a strong believer that the legislature will have to do something about this.
For all of you who say "why aren't you complaining about other schools?" It's not just football. It's other sports as well. This is a football thread, so that's its focus.
That's another way of saying.....Let's get the government to solve my problem. I don't want to do what it takes on my own (beat PA), I want the government to step in and make me not work so hard.
Not hard to guess who you voted for either.
Frankly, I am surprised you are a big Batesville fan. Most of the Batesville folks on here aren't advocating the elimination of PA from their lives.
On a sincere note, good luck on the academics over the next few weeks. It can be a little stressful this time of year.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 05, 2016, 07:41:52 am
That's another way of saying.....Let's get the government to solve my problem. I don't want to do what it takes on my own (beat PA), I want the government to step in and make me not work so hard.
Not hard to guess who you voted for either.
Frankly, I am surprised you are a big Batesville fan. Most of the Batesville folks on here aren't advocating the elimination of PA from their lives.
On a sincere note, good luck on the academics over the next few weeks. It can be a little stressful this time of year.
You have to keep in mind...this is much bigger than just Batesville vs PA or even PA football. This is a problem, nationwide, that is impacting every state. Every state is still altering their rules to make changes. Alabama introduced a bill this year to separate the two during the post season. It's not just PA..it's not just Arkansas...and it's not just football.
I do appreciate the kind words. Thanks, I need all the luck I can get!
To say Lets get the government involved to fix our problems is a bit of a slap in the face, Yellowcake, isn't it? You yourself would have to be fair and admit that there seems to be a disadvantage to the other schools. And sometimes being a advocate for change is necessary and is one of things this great nation was founded on and fought for....Freedom and Rights, can you agree?
Education is always evolving. Something changes every year.
On a semi-related side note, I read a interesting FB post about a basketball tournament in which the Pioneers are participating. Tournament participants include a team made up of home school students (Arkansas Flames?), and Baptist Prep. With the very possible proliferation of private and charter school during a period when the GOP dominates state and national governments, this issue will likely gain more attention. President-elect Trump recently named a private/charter school activist as the Secretary of Education, our governor and legislators appear eager to advance the same agenda, and organizations such as the cleverly named Arkansas Public School Resource Center, along with the informally nicknamed "Good-suite Club", will provide the lawyers and professional staff to "put legs" to the effort. A new world is coming to education and athletic and other school related competitive efforts will experience an impact.
If PA truly has the numbers of a 3A school, that would mean their high school has somewhere around 300 students? They have around 100 players on their roster. That means that roughly 1/3 of the school plays football. A few years back Shiloh had 90 or so on the roster and even less students than 300 in the entire school. Yet, PA is the best team in the state. Not just 5A, the state. Their are no zones that limit where their athletes can live and still play. Anyone that doesn't see that there's a clear advantage outside of great coaching is either a homer or an idiot. It does need to be addressed.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 05, 2016, 07:41:52 am
That's another way of saying.....Let's get the government to solve my problem. I don't want to do what it takes on my own (beat PA), I want the government to step in and make me not work so hard.
Not hard to guess who you voted for either.
Frankly, I am surprised you are a big Batesville fan. Most of the Batesville folks on here aren't advocating the elimination of PA from their lives.
On a sincere note, good luck on the academics over the next few weeks. It can be a little stressful this time of year.
This same ideology was utilized by a PA parent earlier this season (let the government handle my problem) to get what they wanted or felt like they needed or deserved. Just saying. It is a common backup plan in todays society. Not limited to public or private school individuals.
Quote from: oldjacketman on December 05, 2016, 10:10:09 am
If PA truly has the numbers of a 3A school, that would mean their high school has somewhere around 300 students? They have around 100 players on their roster. That means that roughly 1/3 of the school plays football. A few years back Shiloh had 90 or so on the roster and even less students than 300 in the entire school. Yet, PA is the best team in the state. Not just 5A, the state. Their are no zones that limit where their athletes can live and still play. Anyone that doesn't see that there's a clear advantage outside of great coaching is either a homer or an idiot. It does need to be addressed.
According to the roster on the PA website, they have about 63 players on the roster.
According to the one I saw it's closer to 100
Quote from: oldjacketman on December 05, 2016, 10:46:18 am
According to the one I saw it's closer to 100
You may be looking at the 9th grade too. This senior class has about 105 students, and 21 are football players. Of course, only about half of the 105 students are boys, so around 40% of the boys play football.
Quote from: oldjacketman on December 05, 2016, 10:46:18 am
According to the one I saw it's closer to 100
Not sure what roster you saw, but the official one is 63.
Either way, if you've ever been to a PA game when they played a good team, but still dominated, you've probably seen that they only have competitive depth to about 30 players or so. Not to insult the 2nd team, but when they get in during the 3rd or 4th quarter (post-mercy rule) against a team like Sylvan Hills, that 2nd string PA offense rarely is able to score and the 2nd string defense tends to give up big plays. PA has several good subs, but when the entire 2nd string goes in, it is obvious that we are not the Alabama of Arkansas 5A that some say. We don't have the depth to plug players in all over the field when someone goes down.
We are fortunate to have enough starting-level players to field separate teams on offense and defense, plus about 4 - 5 good subs on either side of the ball. After that, the depth is lacking. But some of those who aren't able to contribute much yet will eventually be the next stars of the team as they get older and continue to develop.
Point is, it doesn't matter whether the roster has 63 players or 100, there are only about 30 who are ready to see the field when the game is still on the line.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on December 05, 2016, 08:27:31 am
On a semi-related side note, I read a interesting FB post about a basketball tournament in which the Pioneers are participating. Tournament participants include a team made up of home school students (Arkansas Flames?), and Baptist Prep. With the very possible proliferation of private and charter school during a period when the GOP dominates state and national governments, this issue will likely gain more attention. President-elect Trump recently named a private/charter school activist as the Secretary of Education, our governor and legislators appear eager to advance the same agenda, and organizations such as the cleverly named Arkansas Public School Resource Center, along with the informally nicknamed "Good-suite Club", will provide the lawyers and professional staff to "put legs" to the effort. A new world is coming to education and athletic and other school related competitive efforts will experience an impact.
That is food for thought. If we get a bunch of charter schools or a voucher system, it will have a huge impact on athletics.
I have no log in this fire, but would love to see the following comparisons made between PA and public schools that they compete against. The total number of athletes that participate in the SIP program. The total number of athletes that participate in the free or reduced lunch programs. The total number of athletes who scored basic, proficient, or advanced on state testing. Act scores. The total number of athletes with IEPs or 504 plans. The total number of athletes who own vehicles. The total number of athletes who have 2 parents. I would think those comparisons would be very one sided. Then, only a fool would argue that we are comparing apples to apples. I think a friendly game of "smear the * would produce a very different outcome, but most of the arguments that involve PA center around athletic competitions that require something more than brute strength.
Rather interesting topic and fun to read!!
Almost as fun as comparing band to athletics!!!
Quote from: oldjacketman on December 05, 2016, 10:10:09 am
If PA truly has the numbers of a 3A school, that would mean their high school has somewhere around 300 students? They have around 100 players on their roster. That means that roughly 1/3 of the school plays football. A few years back Shiloh had 90 or so on the roster and even less students than 300 in the entire school. Yet, PA is the best team in the state. Not just 5A, the state. Their are no zones that limit where their athletes can live and still play. Anyone that doesn't see that there's a clear advantage outside of great coaching is either a homer or an idiot. It does need to be addressed.
Hahaha.... Shiloh has never had 90 on their roster. If you are referring to the 2011 team it was closer to 40....
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 05, 2016, 11:06:52 am
I have no log in this fire, but would love to see the following comparisons made between PA and public schools that they compete against. The total number of athletes that participate in the SIP program. The total number of athletes that participate in the free or reduced lunch programs. The total number of athletes who scored basic, proficient, or advanced on state testing. Act scores. The total number of athletes with IEPs or 504 plans. The total number of athletes who own vehicles. The total number of athletes who have 2 parents. I would think those comparisons would be very one sided. Then, only a fool would argue that we are comparing apples to apples. I think a friendly game of "smear the * would produce a very different outcome, but most of the arguments that involve PA center around athletic competitions that require something more than brute strength.
Rather interesting topic and fun to read!!
Almost as fun as comparing band to athletics!!!
I don't think anyone from PA is saying that certain advantages don't exist. As PA Dad has said a few times, we don't dispute that.
What is disputed is whether PA recruits players. From what I've seen in the many years I've been part of PA as a parent (and husband of a teacher there), the recruiting argument is bunk. My wife taught almost all of those kids in 2nd grade... and most of the rest were at PA by 6th grade at the latest. I've never seen a PA football team where a big-time player showed up on the varsity team out of nowhere... they've all come up in the system. The closest I can think of would be Hunter Henry, but his family moved back to Little Rock from Atlanta when he was in 9th grade and decided to send all their kids to PA at that time.
Now - the recruiting argument aside, what is PA expected to do to make everyone happy? Stop trying so hard to win? Stop getting the kids to practice? Stop paying for private training sessions to try to improve and get stronger? Why wouldn't PA or any athletic program do whatever they can within the rules to be the best program they can be?
PA certainly has advantages, but they also teach their players to work as hard as they can despite those advantages... no taking it for granted. Although many people have a lot of hate for the program, especially in football, I would think they would also have at least an inkling of respect for the effort these players, families, and coaches continue to give every year.
Don't know the exact count on the PA roster right now...but do know it includes 9th graders as well.
I really don't think anyone is suggesting that PA parents quit taking their kids to private lessons or buying them cars. Most people are looking for the playing field to be equalized. I'm sure beating Fair and some of those Central Arkansas schools is so exhilarating. One can picture the successful feeling that overcomes a player when he knows that he outsmarted a kid that receives special discounts on his food or gets extra help because he scored below average on the state testing. Beat the teams with the matching percentages and know one will say anything. That's where the hatred of PA comes from, that and running up the score in the past. I'm sure that will catch up to Coach Kelley when the coaches vote for his induction to the Arkansas High School Football Coaches Fall of Fame, or what ever that is?
Any parent with the ability to train their kids and do things for them will do it. I do!! Personally, I love to see kids being successful, especially my own. Just not against those that are less..... can we say..... privileged.
No one really cares about recruited players, anyone with any kind of understanding of the real problem. It's not about the kids, it's about the kind of kids. Remember that and you will understand this whole situation a little better.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 05, 2016, 12:29:21 pm
I really don't think anyone is suggesting that PA parents quit taking their kids to private lessons or buying them cars. Most people are looking for the playing field to be equalized. I'm sure beating Fair and some of those Central Arkansas schools is so exhilarating. One can picture the successful feeling that overcomes a player when he knows that he outsmarted a kid that receives special discounts on his food or gets extra help because he scored below average on the state testing. Beat the teams with the matching percentages and know one will say anything. That's where the hatred of PA comes from, that and running up the score in the past. I'm sure that will catch up to Coach Kelley when the coaches vote for his induction to the Arkansas High School Football Coaches Fall of Fame, or what ever that is?
Any parent with the ability to train their kids and do things for them will do it. I do!! Personally, I love to see kids being successful, especially my own. Just not against those that are less..... can we say..... privileged.
No one really cares about recruited players, anyone with any kind of understanding of the real problem. It's not about the kids, it's about the kind of kids. Remember that and you will understand this whole situation a little better.
So... somehow you seem to think we get to choose who we play. Believe me, as the father of a PA soccer girl, we do not look forward to the easy games, but most of our conference just isn't very good at girls soccer. We look forward to the tough, close games so we can actually enjoy the competition and get a feel for how well our girls are coming together as a team.
We have no choice but to play the teams in our conference. We just play the games that are assigned. Take it up with the AAA if you think that is somehow unfair.
And if you think no one cares about whether players are recruited or not, you need to spend a little more time reading other threads on this board. Many people on both sides of the equation would agree that you are mistaken on that.
Impressive talent list. Most of the success PA has is because of the coaching. Coach Kelley is a great High School coach who has found a niche that works really well at this level. Move his tactics to the FBS D1 level and he gets his clocked cleaned. Reason. Everyone at that level is equal to everyone. You have no advantage talent wise. Not downing the man but you will punt in college or go to the unemployment line. LOL, whith that said, PA does give the state something to cheer about when they take on other power ranked schools from Texas and elsewhere. How about scheduling a game with some of my homeboys down in Batesville Mississippi from South Penola. Would love to see that game, and would probably travel to see it. For now though, I would like for PA to stay in 5A. We want to keep having our shot at them.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 05, 2016, 12:29:21 pm
I really don't think anyone is suggesting that PA parents quit taking their kids to private lessons or buying them cars. Most people are looking for the playing field to be equalized. I'm sure beating Fair and some of those Central Arkansas schools is so exhilarating. One can picture the successful feeling that overcomes a player when he knows that he outsmarted a kid that receives special discounts on his food or gets extra help because he scored below average on the state testing. Beat the teams with the matching percentages and know one will say anything. That's where the hatred of PA comes from, that and running up the score in the past. I'm sure that will catch up to Coach Kelley when the coaches vote for his induction to the Arkansas High School Football Coaches Fall of Fame, or what ever that is?
Any parent with the ability to train their kids and do things for them will do it. I do!! Personally, I love to see kids being successful, especially my own. Just not against those that are less..... can we say..... privileged.
No one really cares about recruited players, anyone with any kind of understanding of the real problem. It's not about the kids, it's about the kind of kids. Remember that and you will understand this whole situation a little better.
Actually it is boring beating teams that have no chance to compete. It would be better if all the schools were more competitive, but unless you suggest PA forfeit those conference games I don't know what they are supposed to do but line up and play them. But trust me, there is no joy in it.
If Wynne had been half as good as their fans said they were before the game, maybe the score would have been closer and this wouldn't be such a big deal right now.
That is exactly what people are talking about doing my friend. Taking it up with the AAA. Moving the private schools to their own league. Then you will play against teams that have the cultural, economic, social, and mind power that evens the playing field. Have you been reading any of this??
People that are making claims about recruited players have no real understanding of the problem. You see, people often only see some of the problem or only have things, liked recruited players to go to as a justification for their anger. I'm not personally hacked at PA or private schools, just pointing out those less than obvious factors that go into making a person or team successful.
The situation is like this for me. My sons travel team has no business playing together against league teams.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 05, 2016, 01:26:48 pm
That is exactly what people are talking about doing my friend. Taking it up with the AAA. Moving the private schools to their own league. Then you will play against teams that have the cultural, economic, social, and mind power that evens the playing field. Have you been reading any of this??
People that are making claims about recruited players have no real understanding of the problem. You see, people often only see some of the problem or only have things, liked recruited players to go to as a justification for their anger. I'm not personally hacked at PA or private schools, just pointing out those less than obvious factors that go into making a person or team successful.
The situation is like this for me. My sons travel team has no business playing together against league teams.
Not my fight to worry about. Like I said, we just play the games.
However, this sounds like you have a very disturbing opinion about the people who don't go to private school.
32 of the PA players on the sidelines are the 9th graders that got called up, by far the largest class at PA and has been since the first grade. Just an odd class with 123 kids, the norm is around 105.
No argument that PA has advantages over most schools in terms of financial resources. I see the biggest impact of that in letting the athletes spend countless hours preparing (no one rides a bus home at 3:30)....that is just one of many.
The football dominance will play itself out, we are just in the cycle of the machine feeding itself. Just like at GW, Barton, Warren, etc. This one ends in the fall of 2020
Quote from: makessense on December 05, 2016, 02:01:40 pm
32 of the PA players on the sidelines are the 9th graders that got called up, by far the largest class at PA and has been since the first grade. Just an odd class with 123 kids, the norm is around 105.
No argument that PA has advantages over most schools in terms of financial resources. I see the biggest impact of that in letting the athletes spend countless hours preparing (no one rides a bus home at 3:30)....that is just one of many.
The football dominance will play itself out, we are just in the cycle of the machine feeding itself. Just like at GW, Barton, Warren, etc. This one ends in the fall of 2020
Do you say fall of 2020 due to the graduation of a certain daughter?
However, this sounds like you have a very disturbing opinion about the people who don't go to private school.
[/quote]
Disturbing opinion?? Or one based on the facts maybe?? I'm not mad or upset at PA or any private school. I have no reason to be, after all my Greenwood Bulldogs make it there on a regular basis. Really no argument people can justify against Greenwood winning. I'm just not gonna find ways to defend or promote something that goes against the values that I teach my children. I'm especially not gonna do it so my children and his or her friends can read it.Then back it up with unrealistic reasoning or should I say.... privileged reasoning?
What is a summer AAU Basketball Team, Summer Soccer Team, Travel Baseball Team made up of? The best players who can afford the cost and make the try out. It works the same.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 05, 2016, 03:01:17 pm
However, this sounds like you have a very disturbing opinion about the people who don't go to private school.
Disturbing opinion?? Or one based on the facts maybe?? I'm not mad or upset at PA or any private school. I have no reason to be, after all my Greenwood Bulldogs make it there on a regular basis. Really no argument people can justify against Greenwood winning. I'm just not gonna find ways to defend or promote something that goes against the values that I teach my children. I'm especially not gonna do it so my children and his or her friends can read it.Then back it up with unrealistic reasoning or should I say.... privileged reasoning?
What is a summer AAU Basketball Team, Summer Soccer Team, Travel Baseball Team made up of? The best players who can afford the cost and make the try out. It works the same.
Yes, disturbing. You basically said that the Central Arkansas public school kids don't have the brains or the culture to compete with private school students in sports. Go back and read what you said... maybe you didn't mean it that way, but sure is what is sounds like. They don't have the "mind power?"
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 05, 2016, 03:01:17 pm
However, this sounds like you have a very disturbing opinion about the people who don't go to private school.
Disturbing opinion?? Or one based on the facts maybe?? I'm not mad or upset at PA or any private school. I have no reason to be, after all my Greenwood Bulldogs make it there on a regular basis. Really no argument people can justify against Greenwood winning. I'm just not gonna find ways to defend or promote something that goes against the values that I teach my children. I'm especially not gonna do it so my children and his or her friends can read it.Then back it up with unrealistic reasoning or should I say.... privileged reasoning?
What is a summer AAU Basketball Team, Summer Soccer Team, Travel Baseball Team made up of? The best players who can afford the cost and make the try out. It works the same.
Just so I'm clear, what is that you feel PA is doing that is against your values? Playing schools with lessor resources and beating them?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 04, 2016, 09:49:10 pm
I have been honest in my remarks on this issue. I ask that you do the same.
I think the real problem most folks have is not private schools. It is PA's success.
No one is complaining about Catholic or LRCA or Conway Christian. And if PA was winning 5-6 games a year, no one would be complaining about PA.
When Greenwood was winning three in a row, we heard the same kind of complaints we're now hearing about PA. When Junction City had its great run, I saw the same complaints (JC recruits from LA; JC has players who are 20 years old). Of course, GW and JC are public schools. The common denominator is dominance: it's not whether the school is public or private.
If you're really concerned about privates, start complaining about Catholic and LRCA.
Well well. I'm offended that you question my honesty. I've not questioned yours although now I wonder that you were not totally honest or just blind to reality. You know that old guilty dog barks thing. I've been in favor of separate leagues for private for a long time and have stated as much, long before PA was such a success. I see the advantages as completely unfair and you are correct if PA was getting killed every Friday most folks would sY nothing because it wouldn't matter. The success draws attention and hilights the advantages. What people don't like is the unfair advantage, if you didn't win it wouldn't appear to be an advantage. Recruitment in any fashion is a plus. Having a wider zone for enrollment is a plus. Being in LR gives you a wide base to draw from, advantage. Upper middle and upper class families with well paying jobs and being willing to contribute, advantage. Parents who are interested and follow the progress of their children, advantage. Plenty of others than are just a part of the private system, nobodies fault, just what it is. However it is advantageous and some folks get tired of it. Not that you have it, but that they have to compete against it.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 05, 2016, 03:37:42 pm
Well well. I'm offended that you question my honesty. I've not questioned yours although now I wonder that you were not totally honest or just blind to reality. You know that old guilty dog barks thing. I've been in favor of separate leagues for private for a long time and have stated as much, long before PA was such a success. I see the advantages as completely unfair and you are correct if PA was getting killed every Friday most folks would sY nothing because it wouldn't matter. The success draws attention and hilights the advantages. What people don't like is the unfair advantage, if you didn't win it wouldn't appear to be an advantage. Recruitment in any fashion is a plus. Having a wider zone for enrollment is a plus. Being in LR gives you a wide base to draw from, advantage. Upper middle and upper class families with well paying jobs and being willing to contribute, advantage. Parents who are interested and follow the progress of their children, advantage. Plenty of others than are just a part of the private system, nobodies fault, just what it is. However it is advantageous and some folks get tired of it. Not that you have it, but that they have to compete against it.
I did not mean to question your honesty. I just wanted an honest answer to my question. I apologize if you took it as a knock on your honesty.
But you still didn't answer the question. If it's a problem with private schools, or private school resources, why aren't you complaining about Catholic or LRCA? And, if private schools are really the issue, why did we hear the same talk when Barton and Greenwood were winning so many championships? They're public.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 04, 2016, 09:49:10 pm
I have been honest in my remarks on this issue. I ask that you do the same.
Well here is your quote, Dad. Sure sounds like you were questioning somebodies honesty, if not mine, whose?
Now as for answering your question, I did. It's the advantages, but if you are a private and losing nobody says anything because it doesn't matter, you're losing. If you are winning, it hi-lights the advantages. The problem, let me say this clearly is that private schools by their nature have these advantages, including being able to pick and choose students for enrollment and then provide financial aid to those that may other wise wind up in a public school.
I'd say the problem with you is you want everyone you play to just like it.
Oh, and you didn't hear me complain about those public schools winning so much unless I had some facts. So get yours straight instead of your opinions and conjecture. Poor little well-to-do kids and parents being treated unfairly, LOL. Want to know unfair. Then put your kid in a school that has a huge poverty rate, low lexile scores, terrible parental participation and apathy among the community. That my friend is unfair, but you know, it's life and people not liking having to play private schools against their public is life. You wanted to put your kid in a private school for all the advantages, then stay with the private schools for your athletics. I'm sure there must be some stench that rubs off on you and yours when you play us public school folks.
There Happy Now?
One last thing. You go play all private schools and beat up on those that don't have much of an athletic program and be disappointed that you have to be bored watching it. I'll cheer you on all the way while you win, 3,4,5 or however many you get.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 05, 2016, 03:42:45 pm
I did not mean to question your honesty. I just wanted an honest answer to my question. I apologize if you took it as a knock on your honesty.
But you still didn't answer the question. If it's a problem with private schools, or private school resources, why aren't you complaining about Catholic or LRCA? And, if private schools are really the issue, why did we hear the same talk when Barton and Greenwood were winning so many championships? They're public.
Well in all fairness, the Barton comparison isn't relevant. Private schools were not really on the uptick in regards to a better option than public. Those were the days when the LR schools were still attractive and little to no reason many went the private route. Greenwood actually was discussed by some due to their ability to draw from the Fort Smith area with district lines changing every year and little follow up as to eligibility. As I have said, the playing field is not level, if it was then it would require all students to reside in school's jurisdiction. Also, in most public schools, coaches have a full schedule of academic classes to teach as well as other sports to maintain in offseason. Private has the luxury of not being held to such schedules.
Yeh, what he said.
I think you guys are on to something. If we can get Alabama, LSU and Texas A&M moved out of the SEC, the Hogs just may win a conference championship some day.
Well in Central Arkansas...we have school of choice where kids go where ever they want and don't have to sit out...Joe T, Maumelle, NLR, Bryant and I am sure a fair number of other schools have kids that played football THIS year that played at a school LAST year within 10 miles of each other. This is not just a private school issue
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 05, 2016, 05:16:37 pm
I think you guys are on to something. If we can get Alabama, LSU and Texas A&M moved out of the SEC, the Hogs just may win a conference championship some day.
You forgot Missouri and Auburn lol
Quote from: STBruin on December 05, 2016, 05:19:21 pm
Well in Central Arkansas...we have school of choice where kids go where ever they want and don't have to sit out...Joe T, Maumelle, NLR, Bryant and I am sure a fair number of other schools have kids that played football THIS year that played at a school LAST year within 10 miles of each other. This is not just a private school issue
True, 3 of the better players in Central Arkansas all transferred from PA and played the next year - one at Bryant, Robinson and NLR.
I have to assume this is a joke.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 05, 2016, 05:16:37 pm
I think you guys are on to something. If we can get Alabama, LSU and Texas A&M moved out of the SEC, the Hogs just may win a conference championship some day.
Not even the same since all the SEC schools recruit, have huge booster organizations that pump money into the programs.
If true, then the AAA needs to go back to work on its rules that all schools should have to follow.
Quote from: STBruin on December 05, 2016, 05:19:21 pm
Well in Central Arkansas...we have school of choice where kids go where ever they want and don't have to sit out...Joe T, Maumelle, NLR, Bryant and I am sure a fair number of other schools have kids that played football THIS year that played at a school LAST year within 10 miles of each other. This is not just a private school issue
Students transferring after July 1 prior to entering the 10th grade year shall not be eligible for one calendar year (365 days) unless there is a bona fide move from one public school district into the public school district that the student will be attending.
School Choice
A student shall meet the domicile requirement under school choice if: (1) the student applies for school choice prior to July 1 (before a student enters grades 7 – 10) and receives approval and (2) Has a CSAP Form (Changing Schools/Athletic Participation Form) signed by the administration of both schools prior to interscholastic competition.
Students applying and receiving school choice approval after July 1 entering the 10th grade shall not be eligible for one calendar year (365 days) unless there is a bona fide move from one public school district into the public school district that the student will be attending.
Additionally, the advantages are what we are discussing now. Not the recruiting really. Advantages that public schools will never have. It's about how to level the playing field. I am fairly certain that there are several public schools working just as hard as PA, but they don't have some of the obvious advantages and won't be able to catch up because of it. Now, I know I don't have any facts to back that statement up, but I will still confidently make that statement.
PA dad, you keep saying nobody is complaining about other private schools. I assure you, it's complained about and more prevalent in other sports. It's not about the success, but it's why and how you have such great success with such a small student body and also a small number of private schools.
Well, sounds clear. If they are playing its illegally.
Everyone keeps listing "Advantages" but what about considering that maybe the parents do not want their children to live or attend anywhere else? What about if there isn't any jobs to provide a income? What if they feel comfortable with the Coaches, teachers and ideals and are confident they are providing the best future for their children? There will always be different levels of income etc. it is a endless list. Leveling the playing field doesn't seem like it would level the freedom of choice.
The AAA is comprised of some Superintendents from across this state and have been in education for many years. You would have to think they would want what is best for children given their profession.
Quote from: PrivateLesson on December 05, 2016, 06:39:03 pm
Everyone keeps listing "Advantages" but what about considering that maybe the parents do not want their children to live or attend anywhere else? What about if there isn't any jobs to provide a income? What if they feel comfortable with the Coaches, teachers and ideals and are confident they are providing the best future for their children? There will always be different levels of income etc. it is a endless list. Leveling the playing field doesn't seem like it would level the freedom of choice.
The AAA is comprised of some Superintendents from across this state and have been in education for many years. You would have to think they would want what is best for children given their profession.
Completely agree about having the freedom of choice. It wouldn't be doing anything to infringe on that freedom. The choice, if truly about academia and the future job market, is still there's to make. they would still get to compete in sports as well as get the education.
There are better solutions to the problem. The success advancement system would help. They could make all private schools who offer tuition assistance to more than a certain percentage of athletes participate in the highest division or their own division. Of course, these are general suggestions and don't go in depth. But a strict multiplier or if you have above 80 kids enrolled then you move up a classification isn't the most adequate solution. It is starting to show at more of an alarming rate than ever before.
This has been quite a week. This time last week the talk of the board was that wynne was the favorite to win state. Now after watching the game, many from Wynne seem to feel they can't compete with PA so they should be moved to a different conference. Who knew that the number of Wynne passing yards would be the same amount as your confidence that you can ever beat PA?
On the one hand, I am sure it was quite deflating to see your team dominated in every aspect of the game and require mercy rules just to get to the end. I'm sure you didn't expect one of the best teams in your program history to be beaten like you usually defeat Paragould or some other downtrodden team. But it's still surprising that 3 hours in the rain can turn someone from brash to defeatist.
Red Devil Alum, I think you're over simplifying the problem. I do not think PA recruits, but if they do it's pretty bad. It defiantly tarnishes everything they have accomplished. Bringing in out of district students to play football is not a nit-picky problem. It's a major unfair advantage. Other schools are handcuffed by boundaries, I don't know how anyone can say it's not a big deal. It's a very big deal.
To blame Wynne is also very false. PA is incredibly unpopular, a lot of it is jealousy but a good deal of it is the whole recruiting rumor. There is a petition among some West schools imploring the AAA to look into the rumor. It could very easily be a bitter opponent but if it catches on statewide then they will have to take some action. I'm the last person to defend Wynne but on this one they are hardly the only ones making noise.
Again, I still doubt they recruit. I am not on board with what I think is a rumor. Make no mistake, if it is ever proven they do then it's not a minor deal. It's plain and simple cheating. Every win, every mercy rule, every title and all praise becomes tainted. It would be a pretty big deal.
Quote from: STBruin on December 05, 2016, 05:19:21 pm
Well in Central Arkansas...we have school of choice where kids go where ever they want and don't have to sit out...Joe T, Maumelle, NLR, Bryant and I am sure a fair number of other schools have kids that played football THIS year that played at a school LAST year within 10 miles of each other. This is not just a private school issue
Totally agree, this is a problem in any metro area with both public and private schools. Here in NWA, we have seven 7A schools within 30 miles of each other, along with Shiloh, Pea Ridge, Gravette, Prairie Grove, Farmingon and Siloam. I currently live in Bentonville, but I could easily move to any of those school districts without changing jobs and my child (when old enough) could play at any of those schools we select. This happens all the time and will continue to happen more often as parents look to find the best fit for their kids.
Quote from: oldjacketman on December 05, 2016, 10:10:09 am
If PA truly has the numbers of a 3A school, that would mean their high school has somewhere around 300 students? They have around 100 players on their roster. That means that roughly 1/3 of the school plays football. A few years back Shiloh had 90 or so on the roster and even less students than 300 in the entire school. Yet, PA is the best team in the state. Not just 5A, the state. Their are no zones that limit where their athletes can live and still play. Anyone that doesn't see that there's a clear advantage outside of great coaching is either a homer or an idiot. It does need to be addressed.
PA has a fantastic program, but to think they are "best" in the state is a bit of a stretch. Just not enough size and depth in the trenches. I really respect the fact they continue taking noncon games against bigger teams (much like UT team this year and TX team last year) and hope they continue to schedule these games.
I think noncon games against GW, PB, etc. would be fun as well. If I remember they has some good battles with GW in the past.
Quote from: Razorback Red on December 05, 2016, 08:57:18 pm
PA has a fantastic program, but to think they are "best" in the state is a bit of a stretch. Just not enough size and depth in the trenches. I really respect the fact they continue taking noncon games against bigger teams (much like UT team this year and TX team last year) and hope they continue to schedule these games.
I think noncon games against GW, PB, etc. would be fun as well. If I remember they has some good battles with GW in the past.
Red, I understand your bias toward 7A. But, why don't you arrange a game between Fayetteville or Bentonville and PA? The only way to settle anything is on the field.
Ask the Fayetteville coach from 2011, when Fayetteville won the 7A championship, whether he thinks Fayetteville was better than PA that year. He's quoted in the DemGaz saying PA was better.
So what is your basis for saying that Fayetteville/Bentonville is better this year other than your bias toward the 7A West?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 05, 2016, 05:58:07 pm
Students transferring after July 1 prior to entering the 10th grade year shall not be eligible for one calendar year (365 days) unless there is a bona fide move from one public school district into the public school district that the student will be attending.
School Choice
A student shall meet the domicile requirement under school choice if: (1) the student applies for school choice prior to July 1 (before a student enters grades 7 – 10) and receives approval and (2) Has a CSAP Form (Changing Schools/Athletic Participation Form) signed by the administration of both schools prior to interscholastic competition.
Students applying and receiving school choice approval after July 1 entering the 10th grade shall not be eligible for one calendar year (365 days) unless there is a bona fide move from one public school district into the public school district that the student will be attending.
Additionally, the advantages are what we are discussing now. Not the recruiting really. Advantages that public schools will never have. It's about how to level the playing field. I am fairly certain that there are several public schools working just as hard as PA, but they don't have some of the obvious advantages and won't be able to catch up because of it. Now, I know I don't have any facts to back that statement up, but I will still confidently make that statement.
PA dad, you keep saying nobody is complaining about other private schools. I assure you, it's complained about and more prevalent in other sports. It's not about the success, but it's why and how you have such great success with such a small student body and also a small number of private schools.
Maybe in other sports, but not in football which is what we are talking about. This subject comes up every year only after PA wins the championship.
And the complaints about PA's success with such a small enrollment is really a great compliment to the PA program and coaches. Thanks!
I know of some public schools that have what could be considered an unfair advantage in sports such as soccer that may be attributable to an extraordinarily high Hispanic student enrollment and participation. I haven't heard much discontent in those situations.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 05, 2016, 04:51:14 pm
Quote from: PA Dad on December 04, 2016, 09:49:10 pm
I have been honest in my remarks on this issue. I ask that you do the same.
Well here is your quote, Dad. Sure sounds like you were questioning somebodies honesty, if not mine, whose?
Now as for answering your question, I did. It's the advantages, but if you are a private and losing nobody says anything because it doesn't matter, you're losing. If you are winning, it hi-lights the advantages. The problem, let me say this clearly is that private schools by their nature have these advantages, including being able to pick and choose students for enrollment and then provide financial aid to those that may other wise wind up in a public school.
I'd say the problem with you is you want everyone you play to just like it.
You admitted my point. You're only concerned when the private school wins. If PA was losing, you wouldn't care. Bingo!
That is hardly accurate. Some schools have a large Hispanic because they live in the boundaries, it is never an unfair advantage if the athletes go to school where they live. Your point makes no sense.
And it doesn't only come up when PA wins. Trust me, it is a very popular subject around Arkansas. There is no uproar about Greenwood. They may have a wealthy population but they are a public school. The students live there.
You PA fans are making me nervous, the discussion seems to have drifted from 'no they don't' to 'who cares'?. Please tell me there is nothing to these rumors, they don't recruit.
The one thing that did bother me was earlier in the year when a mother sued because her son had been kicked out and would have to sit out a game. That was quite shady, her rationale bothered me. She said her son was trying to get a scholarship because she couldn't afford college. Two thoughts on that. First, if she can afford PA she can afford college. Second, if missing one game could kill his chance for a scholarship it's a safe bet he's not an ESPN Top 500 player. Many kids get a full ride after missing their entire senior season because of injury. If missing one game was that serious then she better have a good plan B. The PA coach said in the paper they would abide by the AAA rules. They then played him, that's the opposite of abiding by the rules.
Quote from: JessieP on December 05, 2016, 10:42:21 pm
That is hardly accurate. Some schools have a large Hispanic because they live in the boundaries, it is never an unfair advantage if the athletes go to school where they live. Your point makes no sense.
And it doesn't only come up when PA wins. Trust me, it is a very popular subject around Arkansas. There is no uproar about Greenwood. They may have a wealthy population but they are a public school. The students live there.
You PA fans are making me nervous, the discussion seems to have drifted from 'no they don't' to 'who cares'?. Please tell me there is nothing to these rumors, they don't recruit.
The one thing that did bother me was earlier in the year when a mother sued because her son had been kicked out and would have to sit out a game. That was quite shady, her rationale bothered me. She said her son was trying to get a scholarship because she couldn't afford college. Two thoughts on that. First, if she can afford PA she can afford college. Second, if missing one game could kill his chance for a scholarship it's a safe bet he's not an ESPN Top 500 player. Many kids get a full ride after missing their entire senior season because of injury. If missing one game was that serious then she better have a good plan B. The PA coach said in the paper they would abide by the AAA rules. They then played him, that's the opposite of abiding by the rules.
If you have seen credible evidence of recruiting by PA on this board, go to the AAA with it.
If you are going to judge all PA parents/students/players by the action of one parent filing a lawsuit, can we judge all Batesville posters/parents/students based on the actions of any Batesville parent/poster or student?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 05, 2016, 10:11:39 pm
Maybe in other sports, but not in football which is what we are talking about. This subject comes up every year only after PA wins the championship.
And the complaints about PA's success with such a small enrollment is really a great compliment to the PA program and coaches. Thanks!
It's a great compliment to the program. Agreed. I mean, there isn't another program in the state your size that has churned out 30+ D-1 players in the last 13 years. Quite the accomplishment. Of course, it's just the coaching that makes them D-1. We all know that. Just like it's the coaching that wins championships. Kelley knows it's the coaching and not the athletes...that's why he has moved to another school or a higher division. Because his style would win at any other place. Right...
It's been fun. PA fans are sensitive about certain issues and several show on this thread. I'll be back after I get the FOI requests in. Don't know if it will be before or after Christmas. If it's the latter, merry Christmas to yalls families! hope everyone has safe travels and an enjoyable time with their family.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 06, 2016, 06:22:47 am
It's a great compliment to the program. Agreed. I mean, there isn't another program in the state your size that has churned out 30+ D-1 players in the last 13 years. Quite the accomplishment. Of course, it's just the coaching that makes them D-1. We all know that. Just like it's the coaching that wins championships. Kelley knows it's the coaching and not the athletes...that's why he has moved to another school or a higher division. Because his style would win at any other place. Right...
It's been fun. PA fans are sensitive about certain issues and several show on this thread. I'll be back after I get the FOI requests in. Don't know if it will be before or after Christmas. If it's the latter, merry Christmas to yalls families! hope everyone has safe travels and an enjoyable time with their family.
How do you know this?
You showed data from one school; where is the data from other football programs?
OK, the can of worms has been opened. Batesville basketball will play the Arkansas Flames. Ever heard of them? the Arkansas Flames are a team made up of home schooled athletes. They are not part of the AAA so Batesville had to get special permission to play them, obviously the game won't count. There is already an uproar about anyone playing them at all. If this idea continues to grow what is stopping someone from putting together an AAU team, have them take online classes and focus on sports. You could have a virtual all-star team playing in the public league. No one ever would call that fair. It is pretty easy to connect those dots to existing private schools that offer financial assistance.
The point from a previous poster also had me thinking hmmm...Why hasn't Kelly moved up? if it's only the system and effective coaching surely he would have had higher paying offers from big programs or even colleges. If the '30 D1 athletes' number is found out to be truthful then yes, Houston we have a problem. Mathematically that is not possible. One school playing within the same rules and limitations as other schools would not have that many legitimate "within the boundaries" athletes. Something is not right with this picture.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on December 05, 2016, 10:18:29 pm
I know of some public schools that have what could be considered an unfair advantage in sports such as soccer that may be attributable to an extraordinarily high Hispanic student enrollment and participation. I haven't heard much discontent in those situations.
Maybe some schools. But 11-time State Soccer Champions, Goblins and Lady Goblins treat them like any other private or public school.
You either win or you don't, but you give it the best that you can do. It also helps having one of the best coaches in the State, playing larger classifications and off season (club) games in other States. ;)
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 06, 2016, 06:22:47 am
It's a great compliment to the program. Agreed. I mean, there isn't another program in the state your size that has churned out 30+ D-1 players in the last 13 years. Quite the accomplishment. Of course, it's just the coaching that makes them D-1. We all know that. Just like it's the coaching that wins championships. Kelley knows it's the coaching and not the athletes...that's why he has moved to another school or a higher division. Because his style would win at any other place. Right...
It's been fun. PA fans are sensitive about certain issues and several show on this thread. I'll be back after I get the FOI requests in. Don't know if it will be before or after Christmas. If it's the latter, merry Christmas to yalls families! hope everyone has safe travels and an enjoyable time with their family.
You raise an interesting question. If my school rolled over and played dead in the semi-finals like yours did, I wonder if I would be as bitter as you are? I guess we will never know.
[From a December 2015 thread.]
In some recent discussions, there have been some comments about the UNUSUAL number of Pulaski Academy football players at D1-FBS colleges in Arkansas.
There are two D1-FBS football colleges in Arkansas: University of Arkansas [Arkansas] and Arkansas State [A-State]. Here are some comparisons:
COLLEGE ROSTER FROM ARK. (PERCENT)
Arkansas 117 40 (34%)
A-State 106 34 (32%)
Keep in mind that each school gets 85 scholarships, which cannot be broken up. In other words, the players get a FULL athletic scholarship, or NO athletic scholarship.
So, of the players that come from Arkansas high schools, what are the percentages from the different high school classifications?
COLLEGE PLAYERS FROM ARK. 7/6A 5A 4A 3A/2A
Arkansas 40 55% 25% 13% 7%
A-State 34 35% 21% 32% 12%
Note that A-State likes 4A schools! :D
Here is the list of 5A high schools, and the number of D1-FBS players, listed in terms of most players:
5A HS PLAYERS AT D1-FBS
Camden-Fairview 3
Forrest City 3
Jacksonville* 3*
Pulaski Academy 3
DeQueen 1
Morrilton 1
Watson Chapel 1
White Hall 1
Valley View 1
* - Jacksonville includes a player from the Parkview Magnet. I don't know if he should be included with Jacksonville or not.
There are also a number of 4A high schools with 3 players:
4A HS PLAYERS AT D1-FBS
Dollerway 3
Dumas 3
Highland 3
Warren 3
NOTE: Roster information was taken from the OFFICIAL school websites:
University of Arkansas - www.arkansasrazorbacks.com
Arkansas State University - www.astateredwolves.com
This analysis was done on 12/20/2015. Sadly, rosters vary, and it is not unusual for young men to quit for a variety of reasons. For example, PA had 3 players at Arkansas earlier this year, but now they are down to 2. Also note that different websites [ESPN, CBSsports, etc.] will OFTEN have slight differences in the listed rosters, which is why I went with the official school websites.
FAVORITES
Colleges also have their favorites. Arkansas has 9 players from Fayetteville HS, and none from Jonesboro. A-State has 4 players from Jonesboro, and none from Fayetteville! A-State likes Warren (3) and Marion (2), while Arkansas likes El Dorado (3) and Greenwood (2).
Quote from: JessieP on December 06, 2016, 08:10:26 am
OK, the can of worms has been opened. Batesville basketball will play the Arkansas Flames. Ever heard of them? the Arkansas Flames are a team made up of home schooled athletes. They are not part of the AAA so Batesville had to get special permission to play them, obviously the game won't count. There is already an uproar about anyone playing them at all. If this idea continues to grow what is stopping someone from putting together an AAU team, have them take online classes and focus on sports. You could have a virtual all-star team playing in the public league. No one ever would call that fair. It is pretty easy to connect those dots to existing private schools that offer financial assistance.
The point from a previous poster also had me thinking hmmm...Why hasn't Kelly moved up? if it's only the system and effective coaching surely he would have had higher paying offers from big programs or even colleges. If the '30 D1 athletes' number is found out to be truthful then yes, Houston we have a problem. Mathematically that is not possible. One school playing within the same rules and limitations as other schools would not have that many legitimate "within the boundaries" athletes. Something is not right with this picture.
Three things to clarify: 1) Private schools are not created for the purpose of sports achievement; they are put together for reasons such as educational focus or religion. The fact that some private schools have success in sports is due to factors such as those mentioned several times already. As noted, we realize they have some advantages (although I dispute the recruiting argument). 2) People keep referring back to the 30+ D1 football athletes, but they conveniently forget that about half of these walked on and many quit or never saw the field. 3) I know Coach Kelley has other opportunities and I don't know for sure why he hasn't moved on, but I've speculated on another discussion two possible reasons. One is that his son played for the football team through last year, so he wanted to coach him all the way through high school. Two is that his daughter still goes to PA and he may not want to take another job that would cause him to uproot his family and make his daughter have to switch schools and leave all of her friends behind. He is loved at PA and has a good situation and a great school for his daughter, so it would have to be the right opportunity at the right time for him to leave (my speculation). There is more to a coaching career for some coaches than just finding the next bigger program to jump to.
Quote from: Go Postal on December 06, 2016, 08:27:06 am
Maybe some schools. But 11-time State Soccer Champions, Goblins and Lady Goblins treat them like any other private or public school. You either win or you don't, but you give it the best that you can do. It also helps having one of the best coaches in the State, playing larger classifications and off season (club) games in other States. ;)
+1. Philosophy sounds familiar😉
Although the curiosity of Kelley not moving on to bigger challenges has crossed my mind, lets be honest. The guy has it made. Great support from community, admin, and exceptional financial support. I don't know what he is compensated for his job but I bet its pretty good in the coaching world. Then you have to consider life. Is he happy where he is doing what he is doing? My guess is yes. What about his family's happiness? I imagine they are happy as well or he might have moved on already. Why leave that type of situation? Especially when you are competing for or winning a state title annually.
Red Devil Alum my reference to the fall of 2020 has to do with the stream of boys coming up. The class of 2021 doesn't look to have that many boys interested in football, they do have a nice basketball team however. Coach Kelly's daughter is in the class of 2022 if that is your underlying question.
One other note on the AAA and the transfer rule - it takes effect July 1st of the 7th grade year. I believe this was changed a couple of years back. Yes there are a couple of boys that did sit out this year, both of their parents attended PA back in the 90s and I guess made the call to change schools. No football, basketball, soccer, or baseball for them this year.
We can never have a level playing field, that just does not exist on any level - from t-ball to the SEC. It doesn't exist at work or in life. What we hope for is fairness. The AAA's first tool for this is student enrollment. It certainly isn't perfect. Maybe we extend the dead period for private schools to 4 weeks in the summer and not 2. Something other than enrollment might narrow the gap. Pushing PA to 6a might not be what the team that gets pushed to 5A would want...another can of worms.
Coach Kelly would not have this success at J.A. Fair, Parkview, etc. with what is in place today at those schools. He would at Cabot, Bryant, Benton, NWA, etc. It isn't fair to those kids but that is a much bigger issue than football.
Back to football - PA will be really really thin next year in a number of positions. It will only take an injury or two to upset the apple cart.
Central Arkansas is a cesspool when it comes to recruiting among the high schools!
The Public schools actually have the advantage in this area now and have for about 8 years as far as the rules go.
If a kid transfers to a private school from a public school or another private school within 25 miles (as a crow flies) he/she is not eligible for one calendar year. They can still practice with the team and play JV ball but cannot play varsity. This is for any kid that has started his/her 7th grade year. So, a stud FB player going into his high school years is very unlikely to transfer from a public school to a private school and miss a year of high school eligibility, regardless of how much (or little) he/she has to pay.
If a kid transfers to a public school (from private or public) he/she will be immediately eligible as long as he/she moves into that schools district or has school choice as an option. As a result, there seems to be public schools becoming the flavor of the month for kids to move into and join programs for one or two years.
A couple of years ago NLR seemed to be the place that the STUDS were going for FB. After their debacle, Robinson and McClellan popped up. Basketball has had some other schools receive move ins as their programs have blossomed.
The private schools seemed to have gone the route of kids moving in from outside the area and younger kids that are identified earlier as athletic kids that would like to go to a good program.
It is a very unique situation in central Arkansas and I'm not sure it is healthy for anyone.
Quote from: Bradshaw on December 06, 2016, 11:45:22 am
Central Arkansas is a cesspool when it comes to recruiting among the high schools!
The Public schools actually have the advantage in this area now and have for about 8 years as far as the rules go.
If a kid transfers to a private school from a public school or another private school within 25 miles (as a crow flies) he/she is not eligible for one calendar year. They can still practice with the team and play JV ball but cannot play varsity. This is for any kid that has started his/her 7th grade year. So, a stud FB player going into his high school years is very unlikely to transfer from a public school to a private school and miss a year of high school eligibility, regardless of how much (or little) he/she has to pay.
If a kid transfers to a public school (from private or public) he/she will be immediately eligible as long as he/she moves into that schools district or has school choice as an option. As a result, there seems to be public schools becoming the flavor of the month for kids to move into and join programs for one or two years.
A couple of years ago NLR seemed to be the place that the STUDS were going for FB. After their debacle, Robinson and McClellan popped up. Basketball has had some other schools receive move ins as their programs have blossomed.
The private schools seemed to have gone the route of kids moving in from outside the area and younger kids that are identified earlier as athletic kids that would like to go to a good program.
It is a very unique situation in central Arkansas and I'm not sure it is healthy for anyone.
Have seen this in northeast Arkansas, especially the Jonesboro area.
Quote from: MB Hog on December 05, 2016, 03:17:19 pm
Yes, disturbing. You basically said that the Central Arkansas public school kids don't have the brains or the culture to compete with private school students in sports. Go back and read what you said... maybe you didn't mean it that way, but sure is what is sounds like. They don't have the "mind power?"
If you read a little closer you will see that I'm talking about the overall numbers and percentages of athletes that attend public vs private schools. It clearly does not mean that no child exist in the central Arkansas public school system that has a good cultural situation or brain power. If I came across as saying that, then I was clearly wrong. They have plenty that more than qualify academically. Its the combination of cultural, economic, social, and mind power that create the advantage. Please read and quote more carefully. Don't read into things based on assumption. Don't put words into others mouths. I will repeat this again.... I have nothing against PA or any private school. I do however despise people who defend unfair competition. If you want to prove me wrong, find a way to pull these statistics.
The total number of athletes that participate in the SIP program. The total number of athletes that participate in the free or reduced lunch programs. The total number of athletes who scored basic, proficient, or advanced on state testing. Act scores. The total number of athletes with IEPs or 504 plans. The total number of athletes who own vehicles. The total number of athletes who have 2 parents. I would think those comparisons would be very one sided. Then, only a fool would argue that we are comparing apples to apples.
When building successful programs, it's the combination that matters!! Sure, the right teams come along that have a good coach and those statistical balances close enough to PA to beat them. Year in and year out, week in and week out..... not close enough though.
Don't pretend to see that an unfair advantage does not exist and expect those that know that it does to say nothing. Even the playing field, that's what I'm preaching. The only way to do so is creating a private school league or playoffs. Come now, the difference between beating Catholic 76 - 20 is really different from beating JA Fair 46 - 0, right??? What's the big deal? In a private league you could still enjoy all the same success without the statistical advantage. Surely you are not saying the competition in a private school league would be worse than JA Fair? Those scores are fictitious by the way.
Sure.... you PA guys will cry .... what are we to do??? You want us to not practice??? You want us to not spend money training our kids??? Try shutting your mouth and keeping people from getting more worked up about the situation. Sooner or later the wrong person gets the right position and it will be bye...bye to private schools vs public schools.
You guys must be lawyers!
Red Devil Alum, wrong tact. In 2006 Yahoo Sports printed an article about Reggie Bush receiving improper benefits from a SC booster. Pete Carroll immediately went on the defensive, held press conferences saying how ridiculous the whole ordeal was. He actually accused the story of being started by jealous Pac-12 schools who had been getting beat by the Trojans for years. He went so far as to accuse the U of W for spreading the rumor simply because of the one sided defeats SC had handed them. Guess what? he was acting like he had something to hide because he did.
In 2010 murmurings began about the SDSU Basketball program. Steve Fisher was very vocal about having nothing to hide. He held a press conference saying "please investigate us, if there is shenanigans going on I want to know about it". The University opened up the books and was totally transparent, they cooperated fully with the NCAA. Guess what? the NCAA found nothing and closed the case.
Nothing screams guilt like the old "Your jealous" battle cry. Do you know why PA Dad is such a respected poster? he is very outspoken about his love of PA. He has facts and never taunts. He also say's "if you have proof of wrongdoings then yes, turn them in. I hate cheaters" in other words, he has nothing to hide.
As far as your moronic "laid down and played dead" comment. 4 years ago Batesville handily beat PA, at PA. 2 years ago it was a 3 point lead for PA in the 3rd quarter. Batesville had just intercepted the ball and was going in to take the lead when their QB and best player was thrown into that dangerous wall. He left the field on a stretcher. This year Batesville was hit with what coach Kelly said was "the worst rash of injuries I've ever seen in my career". PA got Batesville at about 70% (on that night 100% wouldn't have been enough. They were the best team in the 5A and they proved it easily. No one can deny that), Wynne got the Pioneers at about 30%. At 100% we beat Wynne, lose to PA. The Bruins were too good this year. I assure you, Batesville did not lay down and play dead. It was a case of too many funerals, too many surgeries and too much PA. The boys fought until the game ended. They then hugged and prayed with PA after the game. The coaches and players praised PA afterword, offered no excuses and knew the better team won. I promise you, laid down and played dead is the posting of an uninformed, uneducated child.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 06, 2016, 12:22:32 pm
If you read a little closer you will see that I'm talking about the overall numbers and percentages of athletes that attend public vs private schools. It clearly does not mean that no child exist in the central Arkansas public school system that has a good cultural situation or brain power. If I came across as saying that, then I was clearly wrong. They have plenty that more than qualify academically. Its the combination of cultural, economic, social, and mind power that create the advantage. Please read and quote more carefully. Don't read into things based on assumption. Don't put words into others mouths. I will repeat this again.... I have nothing against PA or any private school. I do however despise people who defend unfair competition. If you want to prove me wrong, find a way to pull these statistics.
The total number of athletes that participate in the SIP program. The total number of athletes that participate in the free or reduced lunch programs. The total number of athletes who scored basic, proficient, or advanced on state testing. Act scores. The total number of athletes with IEPs or 504 plans. The total number of athletes who own vehicles. The total number of athletes who have 2 parents. I would think those comparisons would be very one sided. Then, only a fool would argue that we are comparing apples to apples.
When building successful programs, it's the combination that matters!! Sure, the right teams come along that have a good coach and those statistical balances close enough to PA to beat them. Year in and year out, week in and week out..... not close enough though.
Don't pretend to see that an unfair advantage does not exist and expect those that know that it does to say nothing. Even the playing field, that's what I'm preaching. The only way to do so is creating a private school league or playoffs. Come now, the difference between beating Catholic 76 - 20 is really different from beating JA Fair 46 - 0, right??? What's the big deal? In a private league you could still enjoy all the same success without the statistical advantage. Surely you are not saying the competition in a private school league would be worse than JA Fair? Those scores are fictitious by the way.
Sure.... you PA guys will cry .... what are we to do??? You want us to not practice??? You want us to not spend money training our kids??? Try shutting your mouth and keeping people from getting more worked up about the situation. Sooner or later the wrong person gets the right position and it will be bye...bye to private schools vs public schools.
Thanks for your commentary, Bernie.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on December 05, 2016, 10:18:29 pm
I know of some public schools that have what could be considered an unfair advantage in sports such as soccer that may be attributable to an extraordinarily high Hispanic student enrollment and participation. I haven't heard much discontent in those situations.
You need to swing by the real football board then Maynard! ;D
Not a Lawyer, but close enough!! LOL!!
Quote from: MB Hog on December 06, 2016, 12:47:09 pm
Thanks for your commentary, Bernie.
Your welcome MB Hog!! Your sarcasm speaks volumes for your passion of the topic.
This sentiment has appeared throughout this thread, but since this quote is handy, I'm going to use it..
Quote from: JessieP on December 05, 2016, 10:42:21 pm...And it doesn't only come up when PA wins. Trust me, it is a very popular subject around Arkansas. There is no uproar about Greenwood. They may have a wealthy population but they are a public school. The students live there.
I can assure those of you who have not been around these parts as long as some of us old timers have, that Greenwood was the subject of 'similar' discussion as was Shiloh Christian.
The situations at each of these schools (PA, Greenwood, and Shiloh Christian) are similar in that each enjoyed a period of high success. I do think that discussion about Greenwood abated when Greenwood moved to 6A.
Shiloh Christian's run eventually ended (can't speak as to exactly why) and in all likelihood so will PA's at some point. My point is that in a perfect world (in which we clearly don't live), I'd like to find a better way to match (classify) schools than by student population alone.
Quote from: JessieP on December 06, 2016, 12:44:29 pm
Red Devil Alum, wrong tact. In 2006 Yahoo Sports printed an article about Reggie Bush receiving improper benefits from a SC booster. Pete Carroll immediately went on the defensive, held press conferences saying how ridiculous the whole ordeal was. He actually accused the story of being started by jealous Pac-12 schools who had been getting beat by the Trojans for years. He went so far as to accuse the U of W for spreading the rumor simply because of the one sided defeats SC had handed them. Guess what? he was acting like he had something to hide because he did.
In 2010 murmurings began about the SDSU Basketball program. Steve Fisher was very vocal about having nothing to hide. He held a press conference saying "please investigate us, if there is shenanigans going on I want to know about it". The University opened up the books and was totally transparent, they cooperated fully with the NCAA. Guess what? the NCAA found nothing and closed the case.
Nothing screams guilt like the old "Your jealous" battle cry. Do you know why PA Dad is such a respected poster? he is very outspoken about his love of PA. He has facts and never taunts. He also say's "if you have proof of wrongdoings then yes, turn them in. I hate cheaters" in other words, he has nothing to hide.
As far as your moronic "laid down and played dead" comment. 4 years ago Batesville handily beat PA, at PA. 2 years ago it was a 3 point lead for PA in the 3rd quarter. Batesville had just intercepted the ball and was going in to take the lead when their QB and best player was thrown into that dangerous wall. He left the field on a stretcher. This year Batesville was hit with what coach Kelly said was "the worst rash of injuries I've ever seen in my career". PA got Batesville at about 70% (on that night 100% wouldn't have been enough. They were the best team in the 5A and they proved it easily. No one can deny that), Wynne got the Pioneers at about 30%. At 100% we beat Wynne, lose to PA. The Bruins were too good this year. I assure you, Batesville did not lay down and play dead. It was a case of too many funerals, too many surgeries and too much PA. The boys fought until the game ended. They then hugged and prayed with PA after the game. The coaches and players praised PA afterword, offered no excuses and knew the better team won. I promise you, laid down and played dead is the posting of an uninformed, uneducated child.
You make some good points. Batesville and Wynne both played very hard. The frustration on the PA side comes from the fact that the AAA makes and enforces the rules, and PA follows them. There are unsubstantiated rumors of illegal recruiting, but no one has or can prove that. As many from PA have said, virtually the entire team has been together since grade school.
I have freely admitted that schools with more resources have an advantage. Wynne is in the upper echelon of spending in the 5A (or from the outside it certainly appears so), so they have an advantage against most of their competition. But PA likely spends more than any other 5A team when all things are included.
But there are rules and PA follows them, and has won 3 straight championships. It's fine to have a problem with the rules and to suggest how they should be changed, but many on this board just criticize PA instead.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 06, 2016, 01:06:59 pm
Not a Lawyer, but close enough!! LOL!!
Your welcome MB Hog!! Your sarcasm speaks volumes for your passion of the topic.
You are right. I don't care as much as you do. You obviously see all kinds of injustice in high school sports, but I just enjoy being a fan. Much more important things in the world than whether the high school sports world is evened up.
I shouldn't read this forum because a few people like to get on here and just complain. When we reply with our point of view, you guys just keep stirring the pot... some admittedly do this; others, who knows?
I love PA as it has been a great experience for my daughter with terrific focus on education and college preparation. Wouldn't trade it and I understand the opportunity for her to attend is a true blessing and I'm thankful we are able to afford it.
If the AAA created an all-private school league, I wouldn't be upset. But until that happens, we play the teams in our conference and in 5A and we do it to the best of our ability.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 06, 2016, 01:04:37 pm
You need to swing by the real football board then Maynard! ;D
It pained me to even mention that other "sport". I had to use spell check to see if I spelled it correctly ;)
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 06, 2016, 01:11:48 pm
This sentiment has appeared throughout this thread, but since this quote is handy, I'm going to use it..
I can assure those of you who have not been around these parts as long as some of us old timers have, that Greenwood was the subject of 'similar' discussion as was Shiloh Christian.
The situations at each of these schools (PA, Greenwood, and Shiloh Christian) are similar in that each enjoyed a period of high success. I do think that discussion about Greenwood abated when Greenwood moved to 6A.
Shiloh Christian's run eventually ended (can't speak as to exactly why) and in all likelihood so will PA's at some point. My point is that in a perfect world (in which we clearly don't live), I'd like to find a better way to match (classify) schools than by student population alone.
I think the biggest thing that has hurt Shiloh would be each year a few good second string players from area junior high schools would transfer in because they wanted to be the big fish in the little pond... With 35-40 kids playing football a couple key players are huge... Nobody wants little Johnny to sit out their sophomore year (and pay to sit out)... And now those kids have options like PG, Pea Ridge and Gravette that have excellent coaching, facilities and programs... Shiloh would do very well in the 3A but I think will continue to be a little better than average in the 4A... Maybe when a few schools move up (Pea Ridge, PG) and are replaced by West Fork and Elkins they can get a conference championship... Right now parents looking for the "best" place for their kid to play football is in favor of the public school....
Quote from: Grond on December 06, 2016, 09:28:43 am
[From a December 2015 thread.]
4A HS PLAYERS AT D1-FBS
Dollerway 3
Dumas 3
Highland 3
Warren 3
I know Gibson and Gragg who is the third from Dumas?
Quote from: MB Hog on December 06, 2016, 01:31:56 pm
You are right. I don't care as much as you do. You obviously see all kinds of injustice in high school sports, but I just enjoy being a fan. Much more important things in the world than whether the high school sports world is evened up.
I shouldn't read this forum because a few people like to get on here and just complain. When we reply with our point of view, you guys just keep stirring the pot... some admittedly do this; others, who knows?
I love PA as it has been a great experience for my daughter with terrific focus on education and college preparation. Wouldn't trade it and I understand the opportunity for her to attend is a true blessing and I'm thankful we are able to afford it.
If the AAA created an all-private school league, I wouldn't be upset. But until that happens, we play the teams in our conference and in 5A and we do it to the best of our ability.
Well said...Those types of post will not bring forth so many critics of the private school advantage in athletics.
Your daughter is lucky to have you. Just remember... there are those who don't have what your daughter has.
By the way... my name is not Bernie.... my name is.....my name is....
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 06, 2016, 02:35:13 pm
Well said...Those types of post will not bring forth so many critics of the private school advantage in athletics.
Your daughter is lucky to have you. Just remember... there are those who don't have what your daughter has.
By the way... my name is not Bernie.... my name is.....my name is....
Slim Shady?
Quote from: Made on December 06, 2016, 02:21:32 pm
I know Gibson and Gragg who is the third from Dumas?
Darion Griswold. Was a good Tight End at A-State.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 06, 2016, 02:35:13 pm
Well said...Those types of post will not bring forth so many critics of the private school advantage in athletics.
Your daughter is lucky to have you. Just remember... there are those who don't have what your daughter has.
By the way... my name is not Bernie.... my name is.....my name is....
And I'm lucky to have her, too. She's a sweet girl and we try to keep her that way. :)
Quote from: Redwolves8526 on December 06, 2016, 02:51:01 pm
Darion Griswold. Was a good Tight End at A-State.
There was also a quarterback from Dumas several years ago. Class of 2007? May have gone D1
Quote from: Redwolves8526 on December 06, 2016, 02:51:01 pm
Darion Griswold. Was a good Tight End at A-State.
I know his brother Clark.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 06, 2016, 01:04:37 pm
You need to swing by the real football board then Maynard! ;D
Yeah stop by sometime, we won't tell anyone. But you might see a lot of avatars from all conferences there that you might recognize.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 05, 2016, 03:22:27 pm
Just so I'm clear, what is that you feel PA is doing that is against your values? Playing schools with lessor resources and beating them?
Red Devil Alum
You PA people and private school supporters view athletics in a way that would fall under the war or battle category. Where winning and losing is the only real outcome. It matters not if one side is healthier, smarter, faster, richer......
According to the AAA ... "Our athletic fields should be the laboratory to produce good citizens reflecting fair play in every area of life."
Every area of life.... Has a certain ring to it.... Like someone said that before....
What are they doing? Nothing.... Nothing, that is reflecting fair play in every area of life.
Why does everyone assume life is fair? Schools aren't equal and neither are athletic programs. Go to one of these Eastern Arkansas schools and most of them would consider Paragould to be unfair compared to their facilities. It is what it is. Live with it or whine about it.
(http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n352/maynardgkrebbs/bernie_zpsdeeod1le.jpg) (http://s336.photobucket.com/user/maynardgkrebbs/media/bernie_zpsdeeod1le.jpg.html)
The private vs public argument is driven by 2 schools and really is only relevant for football. Those two schools are PA and Shiloh. Remember these schools also play "up" a division because of Shiloh's domination throughout the 2000's. Shiloh had it's run and I remember them getting hammered by a public school out of Dallas about 5 years ago. PA claims everyone is afraid to play them so they travel out of state. They have lost to Chaminade in CA and also East High in Utah.
The other 2 big sports (basketball and baseball/softball) there is no private school domination.
As a matter of fact you could argue that the Little Rock/NLR/Jonesboro schools dominate in mens basketball and usually baseball is won by public schools.
Kevin Kelly has done a great job in building a dynasty at PA where parents choose to pay $$ or drive the extra miles to enroll their kids for the football program. I do not always agree with his antics (changing uniforms at halftime....tacky) but he has the football program rolling.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 06, 2016, 03:45:43 pm
Red Devil Alum
You PA people and private school supporters view athletics in a way that would fall under the war or battle category. Where winning and losing is the only real outcome. It matters not if one side is healthier, smarter, faster, richer......
According to the AAA ... "Our athletic fields should be the laboratory to produce good citizens reflecting fair play in every area of life."
Every area of life.... Has a certain ring to it.... Like someone said that before....
What are they doing? Nothing.... Nothing, that is reflecting fair play in every area of life.
I'm still unsure of your point. Are you upset with the AAA, PA or both?
If your point is that PA plays athletics simply to win and not to develop young men and women for life, I couldn't disagree more. Of course PA plays to win every event regardless of sport, but to say they put winning above the broader values of sports is incorrect.
Quote from: Redwolves8526 on December 06, 2016, 02:51:01 pm
Darion Griswold. Was a good Tight End at A-State.
Sorry must have misread what you wrote, I was looking at current rosters, thought you may have been counting Capps at Arkansas but he transferred to star city.
*also pretty sure Johnny Gibson is a walk on
http://arkansas.247sports.com/Article/Arkansas-Razorbacks-Scholarship-Football-Roster-heading-into-Sum-45546795
Red Devil Alum, you are correct. Mind you I am still on the 'they don't recruit' team. I have seen zero proof of it. If you watch them warm up there is one thing PA is not, intimidating. I still think they play the game they want and tell opponents "stop us". They are State Champs because of what they do on the field.
Now I've been lucky up to this point, none of the veterans have called me on it. Let me disclose this right now. Batesville Football is not eating bologna sandwiches. They are in the midst of building a 2 million dollar indoor practice facility, a full 100 yards. Their weight room is as nice as PA's. They have incredible fan support and want for nothing. There was an article back in 2005 in the Dem-Gazette saying that per capita Independence County had more millionaires the any county in Arkansas. I always fear there are some old timers here reading my 'financial advantage' post and say "give me a break". So yes, Batesville cannot play the working class hero card. That is true. We can never accuse PA of buying anything. I just hope that these recruiting rumors are just that, rumors.
I didn't mean to go into overkill and attack you personally but when I hear 'laid down' I want to scream. If we can put down the pom poms for a minute I can lay out the argument for Coach King and what a wonderful job he has done this year. If you look objectively I think everyone would agree, he is coach of the year. Late in the season last year one of the players collapsed on the field, he was not breathing. As the team huddled around the trainers started CPR and then used the defibrillators to bring him back to life. The head trainer saved his life, it made National news. About a month later 6 boys, 4 on the football team, piled into a car and were in a horrific accident. 2 Pioneers died at the scene, they were both 10th graders, 3 more spent months in the hospital. They have yet to return to the team. They wear their jersey's on the sidelines as a constant reminder of that horrific night. 2 weeks after the accident the younger brother of one of the boys killed led the team onto the field for the first playoff game. The coaches spent weeks driving to children's after practice, attending funerals and trying to comfort crying heartbroken teenage football players. This year started with many people picking Batesville to win State. The dark cloud still hung over the kids. Starting week one this team was ripped apart by injuries, starters went down, 2 all-state players missed multiple weeks, the state defensive player of the year missed 5 games, the team had 14 surgeries and 11 were season ending. Playing a ton of sophomores and JV players the Pioneers ran off 7 straight wins and once again made the semi-finals. They never made excuses and never gave up. No one would have blamed them if they folded up but coach King and his staff never let them. There is no shame in losing to the best team in the state but don't tell me they laid down. These boys fought harder then anyone playing high school football.
Quote from: MB Hog on December 06, 2016, 04:52:26 pm
Already watched this once this Christmas season. Probably at least one more time during the holidays. ;D
Twice here haha
Quote from: JessieP on December 06, 2016, 04:59:22 pm
Red Devil Alum, you are correct. Mind you I am still on the 'they don't recruit' team. I have seen zero proof of it. If you watch them warm up there is one thing PA is not, intimidating. I still think they play the game they want and tell opponents "stop us". They are State Champs because of what they do on the field.
Now I've been lucky up to this point, none of the veterans have called me on it. Let me disclose this right now. Batesville Football is not eating bologna sandwiches. They are in the midst of building a 2 million dollar indoor practice facility, a full 100 yards. Their weight room is as nice as PA's. They have incredible fan support and want for nothing. There was an article back in 2005 in the Dem-Gazette saying that per capita Independence County had more millionaires the any county in Arkansas. I always fear there are some old timers here reading my 'financial advantage' post and say "give me a break". So yes, Batesville cannot play the working class hero card. That is true. We can never accuse PA of buying anything. I just hope that these recruiting rumors are just that, rumors.
I didn't mean to go into overkill and attack you personally but when I hear 'laid down' I want to scream. If we can put down the pom poms for a minute I can lay out the argument for Coach King and what a wonderful job he has done this year. If you look objectively I think everyone would agree, he is coach of the year. Late in the season last year one of the players collapsed on the field, he was not breathing. As the team huddled around the trainers started CPR and then used the defibrillators to bring him back to life. The head trainer saved his life, it made National news. About a month later 6 boys, 4 on the football team, piled into a car and were in a horrific accident. 2 Pioneers died at the scene, they were both 10th graders, 3 more spent months in the hospital. They have yet to return to the tea,. They wear there jersey's on the sidelines as a constant reminder of that horrific night. 2 weeks after the accident the younger brother of one of the boys killed led the team onto the field for the first playoff game. The coaches spent weeks driving to children's after practice, attending funerals and trying to comfort crying heartbroken teenage football players. This year started with many people picking Batesville to win State. The dark cloud still hung over the kids. Starting week one this team was ripped apart by injuries, starters went down, 2 all-state players missed multiple weeks, the state defensive player of the year missed 5 games, the team had 14 surgeries and 11 were season ending. Playing a ton of sophomores and JV players the Pioneers ran off 7 straight wins and once again made the semi-finals. They never made excuses and never gave up. No one would have blamed them if they folded up but coach King and his staff never let them. There is no shame in losing to the best team in the state but don't tell me they laid down. These boys fought harder then anyone playing high school football.
I think everyone forgets about all this tragedy these kids went through. I haven't. I think it's why I heard all those Batesville players telling each other "I love you" during the PA game, even when they were getting beat by a bunch. Why they were not happy, they also weren't acting like it was the end of the world or demonstrating poor sportsmanship on or off the field. I think these kids have, probably more than any other bunch, perspective. Life perspective. They work as hard as anyone, want to win as bad as anyone, but see it for what it is at the same time. It's high school football, not the end of the world.
I think a bunch of posters on here could follow the leadership of those Batesville kids. PA is enjoying the fruits of hard work, dedicated players and families, and a fantastic coach with a plan that works. Deal with it or do something about it on the field, but don't berate an entire school because you don't like the fact that they win football games.
My goodness folks, it's high school football. I am going to have a bunch of BLB bracelets made and sending em to all of you. That's right, Be Like Batesville. :)
Quote from: PA Dad on December 05, 2016, 10:04:23 pm
Red, I understand your bias toward 7A. But, why don't you arrange a game between Fayetteville or Bentonville and PA? The only way to settle anything is on the field.
Ask the Fayetteville coach from 2011, when Fayetteville won the 7A championship, whether he thinks Fayetteville was better than PA that year. He's quoted in the DemGaz saying PA was better.
So what is your basis for saying that Fayetteville/Bentonville is better this year other than your bias toward the 7A West?
Typically we agree on most things PA Dad, but I hit a nerve on this one. I've said multiple times on here that PA is a fantastic program, but IMO they are not at the level of the top overall teams in the state like FHS, BHS, NLR. Others might disagree, but it takes size, depth, speed, balance, defense and great coaching to beat these teams. There is a reason both BHS and FHS take so many high-level out of state games, they both want to get better. My opinion is no better than anyone else's, but there's still a gap. Even NLR is still trying to close the gap on D. They had a better offense this season, but the balance wasn't quite there yet.
I would be curious to hear what McClellan fans think, I believe they played both NLR and PA this year. I don't like comparing scores, but curious how they feel the overall talent of PA stacked up to NLR.
Very rarely would we ever see 5A teams play 7A teams so it's all for fun.
Quote from: Razorback Red on December 06, 2016, 09:04:57 pm
Typically we agree on most things PA Dad, but I hit a nerve on this one. I've said multiple times on here that PA is a fantastic program, but IMO they are not at the level of the top overall teams in the state like FHS, BHS, NLR. Others might disagree, but it takes size, depth, speed, balance, defense and great coaching to beat these teams. There is a reason both BHS and FHS take so many high-level out of state games, they both want to get better. My opinion is no better than anyone else's, but there's still a gap. Even NLR is still trying to close the gap on D. They had a better offense this season, but the balance wasn't quite there yet.
I would be curious to hear what McClellan fans think, I believe they played both NLR and PA this year. I don't like comparing scores, but curious how they feel the overall talent of PA stacked up to NLR.
Very rarely would we ever see 5A teams play 7A teams so it's all for fun.
I don't think Pa could have beat Fayetteville. Just too much size on the lines. I watched both up close and personal. I think they could play with NLR, but don't know if they could beat them.
They could have played with Greenwood and Russelville. Again, don't know if they could beat them consistently.
Bottom line is I think they could generally compete in either division, but would seldom win state championships. They already play two classifications higher than their enrollment. To go to 6 or 7A, well, eventually the enrollment numbers get too big. Frankly, I think the fact that we have had a dominant run in 5A is almost unbelievable, given the numbers. And I agree with PA Dad on this point....you remove Kevin Kelley AND HIS STAFF (of 5), and everything changes. It all starts there.
Thank you Yellowcake. I will share your post with the Batesville fans and players. That means a lot. I am glad to see the respect goes both ways. Yes, the Pioneers never miss a chance to tell a teammate "I love you" they found out the hard way it could be the last thing you ever say to that person.
There is no coincidence in the fact that when the dust settles on a long hard year and there are only 4 teams left it's always PA and Batesville. It's not cheating, it's not recruiting it's hard work, great coaches and good kids.
Look forward to seeing you guys next year.
Quote from: Razorback Red on December 06, 2016, 09:04:57 pm
Typically we agree on most things PA Dad, but I hit a nerve on this one. I've said multiple times on here that PA is a fantastic program, but IMO they are not at the level of the top overall teams in the state like FHS, BHS, NLR. Others might disagree, but it takes size, depth, speed, balance, defense and great coaching to beat these teams. There is a reason both BHS and FHS take so many high-level out of state games, they both want to get better. My opinion is no better than anyone else's, but there's still a gap. Even NLR is still trying to close the gap on D. They had a better offense this season, but the balance wasn't quite there yet.
I would be curious to hear what McClellan fans think, I believe they played both NLR and PA this year. I don't like comparing scores, but curious how they feel the overall talent of PA stacked up to NLR.
Very rarely would we ever see 5A teams play 7A teams so it's all for fun.
You and Yellowcake are probably right. I certainly didn't mean to offend you.
But I'd still love to see them play!
Quote from: Razorback Red on December 06, 2016, 09:04:57 pm
Typically we agree on most things PA Dad, but I hit a nerve on this one. I've said multiple times on here that PA is a fantastic program, but IMO they are not at the level of the top overall teams in the state like FHS, BHS, NLR. Others might disagree, but it takes size, depth, speed, balance, defense and great coaching to beat these teams. There is a reason both BHS and FHS take so many high-level out of state games, they both want to get better. My opinion is no better than anyone else's, but there's still a gap. Even NLR is still trying to close the gap on D. They had a better offense this season, but the balance wasn't quite there yet.
I would be curious to hear what McClellan fans think, I believe they played both NLR and PA this year. I don't like comparing scores, but curious how they feel the overall talent of PA stacked up to NLR.
Very rarely would we ever see 5A teams play 7A teams so it's all for fun.
By the way, Maxzpreps has PA ranked No. 2 in the state. So I'm not all alone in my opinion!
Quote from: PA Dad on December 05, 2016, 10:18:42 pm
You admitted my point. You're only concerned when the private school wins. If PA was losing, you wouldn't care. Bingo!
Who are you trying to convince? Yourself? Keep drinking the koolaid. I don't omplain when it has no impact, it would take all my time. Just like I don't write my congressman everytime the government does something stupid or overreaching. Doesn't mean I like what they do or don't care.
Your post only reveal that you have deep guilt issues about what goes on at your school and you are trying to convince the rest of us. Just go play with your private school friends and all will be well.
As I said, I'm honest about my feelings. I don't think private should play with public. If it happens and you lose I still don't agree but I don't have time to police your every move. No harm no foul as they say.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 06, 2016, 10:33:43 pm
Who are you trying to convince? Yourself? Keep drinking the koolaid. I don't omplain when it has no impact, it would take all my time. Just like I don't write my congressman everytime the government does something stupid or overreaching. Doesn't mean I like what they do or don't care.
Your post only reveal that you have deep guilt issues about what goes on at your school and you are trying to convince the rest of us. Just go play with your private school friends and all will be well.
As I said, I'm honest about my feelings. I don't think private should play with public. If it happens and you lose I still don't agree but I don't have time to police your every move. No harm no foul as they say.
You seem to suffer from an unreasonable bias based upon a great deal of misinformation. I don't believe anyone, should they foolishly be inclined to try, could convince you water was wet if you already had your mind made up it wasn't.
The Fake News world survives on this kind of mindset. Never let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
Just one man's opinion.
Serious question and a bit off topic....but is there a monetary cap on donations a public and private school can receive?
Quote from: PrivateLesson on December 06, 2016, 11:36:23 pm
Serious question and a bit off topic....but is there a monetary cap on donations a public and private school can receive?
That's a good question and I have wondered that. Harrison's football/soccer/track stadium and indoor practice facility was built from private donations, not school funds. Then donated to the school, so no actual money was given. It was around.$8.6 mil to build. But that is what a community can do when they work together for a common goal.
Quote from: Go Postal on December 07, 2016, 04:05:41 am
That's a good question and I have wondered that. Harrison's football/soccer/track stadium and indoor practice facility was built from private donations, not school funds. Then donated to the school, so no actual money was given. It was around.$8.6 mil to build. But that is what a community can do when they work together for a common goal.
That number far exceeds every dime PA has spent on athletic facilities.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 07, 2016, 06:13:55 am
That number far exceeds every dime PA has spent on athletic facilities.
Remember, the school didn't spend a dime either. It was a donation after it was built from fans private funds. It is a public school and doesn't get money from tuition or local taxes for that kind of expenditure. The question that PL asked was about donations.
Quote from: Go Postal on December 07, 2016, 07:16:58 am
Remember, the school didn't spend a dime either. It was a donation after it was built from fans private funds. It is a public school and doesn't get money from tuition or local taxes for that kind of expenditure. The question that PL asked was about donations.
Are you saying these nice new stadiums and facilities at many Arkansas public high school stadiums aren't paid for by tax dollars? If that's the point, I think you are mistaken. If I am lost in the conversation, my apologies.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 07, 2016, 08:21:52 am
Are you saying these nice new stadiums and facilities at many Arkansas public high school stadiums aren't paid for by tax dollars? If that's the point, I think you are mistaken. If I am lost in the conversation, my apologies.
I think it is worth noting that some districts pass millage increases to fund facilities while others have been fortunate enough to be the recipient of donations from individuals or corporations at no expense to the district (other than upkeep). Every situation is likely different to some degree.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 07, 2016, 08:21:52 am
Are you saying these nice new stadiums and facilities at many Arkansas public high school stadiums aren't paid for by tax dollars? If that's the point, I think you are mistaken. If I am lost in the conversation, my apologies.
Ours was private funding. Not one tax dollar used
Quote from: JessieP on December 06, 2016, 04:59:22 pm
They are in the midst of building a 2 million dollar indoor practice facility, a full 100 yards. Their weight room is as nice as PA's.
1.2 million or so is coming from construction bonds...And it's a multi purpose facility. Not used strictly for football. Used for other sports as well as classes during school hours. It also won't have air conditioning, so it will primarily be used in the winter and maybe during some inclement weather in the warmer months.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 06, 2016, 04:37:33 pm
I'm still unsure of your point. Are you upset with the AAA, PA or both?
If your point is that PA plays athletics simply to win and not to develop young men and women for life, I couldn't disagree more. Of course PA plays to win every event regardless of sport, but to say they put winning above the broader values of sports is incorrect.
My point is very simple. Most teams that PA, or any other private school plays, are statistically at a disadvantage. The solution to that problem is not, oh life is not fair and athletics are not fair. It's certainly not making comments on a public forum about a team laying down or quitting in the second half. It's finding a way to bring parity to the competition. How one accomplishes that, who really knows. I do know this though. The wrong person gets the right information, in this state and day in age, and this conversation will be null and void.
Example.. Minnesota's system has been in place for 15 years and uses a free-and-reduced lunch program to account for socioeconomic factors. It allows team to move down based on socioeconomic factors. Maybe what I said about socioeconmics does make sense??
Maybe you teach your children, value wise, to boast that they "laid down or quit in the second half", but I do not.
Parity... That's my opinion..
Upset... Not even close
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 07, 2016, 08:21:52 am
Are you saying these nice new stadiums and facilities at many Arkansas public high school stadiums aren't paid for by tax dollars? If that's the point, I think you are mistaken. If I am lost in the conversation, my apologies.
Warren's turf field was also funded through donations from the community. No tax dollars involved.
I'm not 100% on this, but I think public school districts have to report annually on athletic expenditures to the state department of education. If so, that will be public information. I'm not sure if a cap exist on the amount that can be spent on facilities. Would seem difficult to update and grow your sports programs if so. Maybe that's why we see locally funded facilities???? Again, I'm guessing here. I'm not sure on this.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 07, 2016, 09:35:27 am
My point is very simple. Most teams that PA, or any other private school plays, are statistically at a disadvantage. The solution to that problem is not, oh life is not fair and athletics are not fair. It's certainly not making comments on a public forum about a team laying down or quitting in the second half. It's finding a way to bring parity to the competition. How one accomplishes that, who really knows. I do know this though. The wrong person gets the right information, in this state and day in age, and this conversation will be null and void.
Example.. Minnesota's system has been in place for 15 years and uses a free-and-reduced lunch program to account for socioeconomic factors. It allows team to move down based on socioeconomic factors. Maybe what I said about socioeconmics does make sense??
Maybe you teach your children, value wise, to boast that they "laid down or quit in the second half", but I do not.
Parity... That's my opinion..
Upset... Not even close
Most teams that play batesville and Wynne are at a financial
Disadvantage. Where are we going to put them to make it fair?
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 06, 2016, 11:16:06 pm
You seem to suffer from an unreasonable bias based upon a great deal of misinformation. I don't believe anyone, should they foolishly be inclined to try, could convince you water was wet if you already had your mind made up it wasn't.
The Fake News world survives on this kind of mindset. Never let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
Just one man's opinion.
Well, maybe you can enligthen me on what I said that was based of misinformation? PA DAD wanted me to be sure I gave him honesty, so I did.
I don't think private and public should play in the same league together. I do think that private schools have some unfair advantages. Do you disagree?
The Minnesota plan for athletics is a good one I think. I think they also allow schools who have lost for years to drop down until they improve. They may be a different state, but I've seen that plan.
There is an assumption that high school athletics is fair in its design, schools playing other schools their size. But, private schools have some big advantages that seem hard to compensate for if you are some public schools. If you are a parent at a private school, I'm sure you don't feel this way and don't understand the reasons some people do. I've read post for years where the private school poster thinks they are unfairly maligned.
I have a question.
Does PA really play up 2 classifications? I thought the AAA stopped that practice some years back? There was a big mess back in the era of Shiloh dominance to first kick them out of the conference and then to force them to play up. I thought the AAA made rules changes to fix that.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 07, 2016, 08:29:36 am
I think it is worth noting that some districts pass millage increases to fund facilities while others have been fortunate enough to be the recipient of donations from individuals or corporations at no expense to the district (other than upkeep). Every situation is likely different to some degree.
This^^^
But the new ongoing Jr high conversion into the high school and new basketball arena is from a publicly voted tax increase.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 04, 2016, 02:29:49 pm
More than 2/3's of Fearless Friday members picked Wynne to beat PA on the poll posted. If you take out PA posters, the number was likely more than 3/4. Then PA goes out and destroys Wynne, setting a record for the most yards in championship game history without really trying in the 4th quarter.
Is the story "wow, PA was better than I thought" or "what a great performance"? No, people are now worried about tents and uniforms.
I'm assuming PA has more money than Wynne and most other 5A schools. How should PA handle that? Forego things that are legal and only spend what their opponents spend? Do we all just find out how much JA Fair spends on football and that is everyone's budget? (Because I assure you Wynne spends a lot more than Fair). Is it unfair that Wynne spends more money on football than most of their own conference? Does that diminish their season?
These seniors went their entire careers and never lost in the state of Arkansas. That's a big deal that the PA community is celebrating. The rest is noise.
I pulled the athletic expenditures for your assurance on the spending.
2014/2015 Athletic expenditures for Wynne's conference. 2014/2015 was the most up to date info I could get.
Batesville - $1,411,000 + No wonder these guys win so much...... LOL!!!!!!
GCT - $1,152,000 + Wow
Paragould - $938,000 +
Valley View - $972,000 +
Nettleton - $956,000 +
Wynne - $695,000 +
Blytheville - $667,000 +
Forrest City - $642,000 +
It would appear that Wynne does not spend more than the rest of the conference. * Some numbers can be off because of property purchases I assume??? One of the columns said property and I was assuming that. Forgive me if I'm wrong on the interpretation of this data, I got it from the Department of Education. I very possibly could be reading that info wrong. I could not find PA on the list?? Would they be listed under another name??
There goes that financial theory................ oops!!
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 11:38:38 am
Well, maybe you can enligthen me on what I said that was based of misinformation? PA DAD wanted me to be sure I gave him honesty, so I did.
I don't think private and public should play in the same league together. I do think that private schools have some unfair advantages. Do you disagree?
HNBC - I'm reluctant to rejoin the conversation with you since we seem to have moved to a better place with each other earlier in the thread, but... I get your position on this; it is very straight-forward.
The thing I don't get is you seem to want to argue this point with people who have no power over the decision. And the thing is, I don't think most of us are actually arguing against your position. Since we don't have the power to do too much about it, and since most of us aren't passionately against playing public schools, we are basically replying with various versions of the question, "what are we supposed to do about it?"
Like me, I think most of the PA fans on this board would be fine playing private schools if that was the AAA decision. It's just not something we feel obligated to fight for.
We are simply going to support our team and enjoy their success while we can.
Many people come to this board with various complaints about PA. We believe we do things the right way; we are proud of that, so we defend PA when we feel like someone is questioning their integrity. Yes, we are sometimes easy to rile up because of that.
Another point - Other than the teams we are obligated to play as part of our conference, it is not like we try to find cupcakes to fill the other slots on the schedule to further stroke our egos. We schedule teams with a history of success and who typically have a lot of the same advantages PA does. It seems to me that the program tries to seek "fair" competition for the games where we have some control in the scheduling. Wouldn't you agree?
It should be like Texas and habe a private school only league.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 07, 2016, 08:43:51 am
1.2 million or so is coming from construction bonds...And it's a multi purpose facility. Not used strictly for football. Used for other sports as well as classes during school hours. It also won't have air conditioning, so it will primarily be used in the winter and maybe during some inclement weather in the warmer months.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ;D RIIGHHHTT!
The whole, most of the kids on the team went there in grade school argument does nothing but give evidence to the socioeconomic factors I mentioned before. Yes, it stifles the recruiting argument. To me personally, the recruitment would be a problem if discovered to be true, but I don't believe that recruitment is the answer to why Private Schools have a greater chance at being more successful in athletics.
It's hard to argue the importance of socioeconomic factors. Just look at Episcopal Collegiate School. It has the wealthiest students in Little Rock. With the benefit of a forfeit, their record in football this year was 1-9. How about the two private schools closest to the ritzy Chenal area of West Little Rock? Arkansas Baptist was 0-10 this year. Little Rock Christian was 6-7. These teams obviously used their socioeconomic advantages to dominate their conferences. J.A. Fair has 81% of students on free or reduced lunch. McClellan has 84%. Fair has one of the worst football teams and McClellan one of the best. Socioeconomic factors clearly account for the differences.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on December 07, 2016, 04:44:07 pm
It's hard to argue the importance of socioeconomic factors. Just look at Episcopal Collegiate School. It has the wealthiest students in Little Rock. With the benefit of a forfeit, their record in football this year was 1-9. How about the two private schools closest to the ritzy Chenal area of West Little Rock? Arkansas Baptist was 0-10 this year. Little Rock Christian was 6-7. These teams obviously used their socioeconomic advantages to dominate their conferences. J.A. Fair has 81% of students on free or reduced lunch. McClellan has 84%. Fair has one of the worst football teams and McClellan one of the best. Socioeconomic factors clearly account for the differences.
I can't recall, how are Arkansas Baptist and Episcopal in basketball? How is LRC in soccer? I just can't remember. You surely aren't saying that socioeconomic factors don't play a role in sports are you?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 07, 2016, 04:54:24 pm
I can't recall, how are Arkansas Baptist and Episcopal in basketball? How is LRC in soccer? I just can't remember. You surely aren't saying that socioeconomic factors don't play a role in sports are you?
Not disputing your point necessarily, but Baptist Prep basketball last season pretty much hinged on two brothers pushing 7 ft and EPC Basketball team showcased the same athletes that had a good football team in 15, and after their graduation, you see how down they were this year..I expect the BB team to suffer from the loss of those players as well this year. Could be wrong, though
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on December 07, 2016, 05:02:55 pm
Not disputing your point necessarily, but Baptist Prep basketball last season pretty much hinged on two brothers pushing 7 ft and EPC Basketball team showcased the same athletes that had a good football team in 15, and after their graduation, you see how down they were this year..I expect the BB team to suffer from the loss of those players as well this year. Could be wrong, though
I understand that. He was just acting like those schools don't succeed and I was trying to show him that they do. I don't think episcopal or Baptist will be as good this season, but they may have some new players. I know nothing about them this year.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 07, 2016, 04:54:24 pm
I can't recall, how are Arkansas Baptist and Episcopal in basketball? How is LRC in soccer? I just can't remember. You surely aren't saying that socioeconomic factors don't play a role in sports are you?
Maynard got the point. ESC had a very good football and basketball team last year, not because of socioeconomic factors, but because they had great athletes like Allie Freeman. AB is good in basketball because of their 7'3' center. I absolutely agree that success in one sport generally has no bearing on success in another sport(s). Regardless of socioeconomic factors, it comes down to the athletes on a team. If socioeconomic factors were more important than talent, schools like ECS and AB would be good in every sport, every year.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 07, 2016, 01:18:11 pm
There goes that financial theory................ oops!!
Sounds like you debunked your own theory. Spending money doesn't lead to more wins in the 5A East. So I guess PA having more money doesn't account for their success. I'm glad you cleared that up.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 07, 2016, 01:15:41 pm
I pulled the athletic expenditures for your assurance on the spending.
2014/2015 Athletic expenditures for Wynne's conference. 2014/2015 was the most up to date info I could get.
Batesville - $1,411,000 + No wonder these guys win so much...... LOL!!!!!!
GCT - $1,152,000 + Wow
Paragould - $938,000 +
Valley View - $972,000 +
Nettleton - $956,000 +
Wynne - $695,000 +
Blytheville - $667,000 +
Forrest City - $642,000 +
Did you take into consideration how many declarations each of these schools have?
Also on any given year someone may have had a major building project, throwing down turf, indoor facility, new gym(which may have been well needed) better to have more than one or two years of financial data before you try and make that point.
You mentioned success based on money, not I. I merely included it as one factor in the socioeconomic factors. Nice try though!!😉
Quote from: Made on December 07, 2016, 07:13:06 pm
Did you take into consideration how many declarations each of these schools have?
Also on any given year someone may have had a major building project, throwing down turf, indoor facility, new gym(which may have been well needed) better to have more than one or two years of financial data before you try and make that point.
[/quote
Did you read all of that post?? I included the information about the property column??? I'll double check it and get back. Maybe compare years over a 10 year period. Any idea why PA is not one that list??? Could someone find out that info?
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 07, 2016, 07:13:24 pm
You mentioned success based on money, not I. I merely included it as one factor in the socioeconomic factors. Nice try though!!😉
Man, at this point I have no idea what you are trying to prove other than private schools shouldn't play public ones.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 07, 2016, 07:23:17 pm
Did you read all of that post?? I included the information about the property column??? I'll double check it and get back. Maybe compare years over a 10 year period. Any idea why PA is not one that list??? Could someone find out that info?
PA is a private school and doesn't have to report anything. That has been a big complaint for several years.
Quote from: Made on December 07, 2016, 07:28:10 pm
PA is a private school and doesn't have to report anything. That has been a big complaint for several years.
Complaint by who about what?
Quote from: The_Pioneer on December 06, 2016, 04:17:57 pm
Why does everyone assume life is fair? Schools aren't equal and neither are athletic programs. Go to one of these Eastern Arkansas schools and most of them would consider Paragould to be unfair compared to their facilities. It is what it is. Live with it or whine about it.
+1.
There will always be inequities in life, and that includes football. There is a huge difference between the resources af Sylvan Hills and Fair. So what should we do about that?
It's not just public vs private. It's also a difference between public schools in terms of resources.
Do we really want every school to have the same resources? If we do, how do we accomplish that?
As Pioneer so eloquently said, life just ain't fair. Everyone has to live with that. All the complaining in the world won't change that.
I could be wrong but aren't public schools under a fairly strict accounting rule that keeps them from spending more than a certain % or their budgets on athletics? If they build new facilities they have to show how the facility would be used for the general school population as opposed to just athletics or they have to pay a much larger % of the cost from donations and the like.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 07, 2016, 09:24:39 pm
+1.
There will always be inequities in life, and that includes football. There is a huge difference between the resources af Sylvan Hills and Fair. So what should we do about that?
It's not just public vs private. It's also a difference between public schools in terms of resources.
Do we really want every school to have the same resources? If we do, how do we accomplish that?
As Pioneer so eloquently said, life just ain't fair. Everyone has to live with that. All the complaining in the world won't change that.
I agree with this ideology and am a proponent of people working hard in order to break free from the lower class. However you must admit, its easy to say "life ain't fair" when you (not you specifically) sit atop the societal food chain.
Quote from: Wonderdog on December 07, 2016, 09:31:02 pm
I agree with this ideology and am a proponent of people working hard in order to break free from the lower class. However you must admit, its easy to say "life ain't fair" when you (not you specifically) sit atop the societal food chain.
You are absolutely correct. I readily admit that. But it doesn't change reality. There will always be the haves and the have nots.
But, to give my outlook some perspective, I grew up in a family with an income below the poverty level. My mother raised my brother and me as a single parent. She always told me that I could be anything I wanted to be.
I couldn't afford college so I enlisted in the Army to get the GI Bill benefits. That put me through school. With my education, thanks to the taxpayers, I've managed to climb out of poverty.
So I have some perspective on the problem of the have nots. I wish I could waive a wand and solve the problem. But reality is that there will always be inequity. The have nots just have to strive as hard as they can to advance. I'll always pull for them. I was one of them.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 07, 2016, 09:44:42 pm
You are absolutely correct. I readily admit that. But it doesn't change reality. There will always be the haves and the have nots.
But, to give my outlook some perspective, I grew up in a family with an income below the poverty level. My mother raised my brother and me as a single parent. She always told me that I could be anything I wanted to be.
I couldn't afford college so I enlisted in the Army to get the GI Bill benefits. That put me through school. With my education, thanks to the taxpayers, I've managed to climb out of poverty.
So I have some perspective on the problem of the have nots. I wish I could waive a wand and solve the problem. But reality is that there will always be inequity. The have nots just have to strive as hard as they can to advance. I'll always pull for them.
This doesn't make you different from many, many people. I congratulate you on your success and your service. It doesn't change how I feel about the private vs public. If anything if helps define my opinion.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 09:52:57 pm
This doesn't make you different from many, many people. I congratulate you on your success and your service. It doesn't change how I feel about the private vs public. If anything if helps define my opinion.
I agree that many folks share my story. I didn't mean to suggest I am different from many others. My only point is that absolute equality is a dream that we're not likely to realize anytime soon
It is a shame that we are describing high school athletics in terms of "the haves and the have nots". Then seemingly boasting about vanquishing the have nots.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 10:00:47 pm
It is a shame that we are describing high school athletics in terms of "the haves and the have nots". Then seemingly boasting about vanquishing the have nots.
I actually agree with your basic premise. My point is that it's not likely to happen.
And I take exception to your assertion that I have boasted about vanquishing the have nots. If I have, please quote the post in which I have done so.
Let me add this. Even if PA was relegated to a private school league, you would not solve the problem of inequality. There is great inequality among public schools. If the figures posted on this board are correct (and I don't know if they are) Batesville has a great advantage over other East teams, and probably over the great majority of all 5A teams, in resources. How do we equalize that inequality?
Maybe we should organize conferences by resources rather than student population. That might put PA in a league with Fayettevile, Bentonville, Harber, Batesville and NLR, but that would be fine with me.
I think it is more tone than a few quotes that speak of beating teams not up to your schools quality. Although there are a few of them. Sorry to say, I thought I had them ready to post but looks like I did something wrong. I'll have to go back and try again.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 10:40:05 pm
I think it is more tone than a few quotes that speak of beating teams not up to your schools quality. Although there are a few of them. Sorry to say, I thought I had them ready to post but looks like I did something wrong. I'll have to go back and try again.
I have a great many faults, but I don't think boasting is one of them. If I've ever boasted about PA beating anyone, i don't remember it.
But I understand posters thinking that PA posters are arrogant and boastful. It's just our image, deserved or not.
I'm not sure about tone. Tone is somewhat subjective so it is certainly possible that you got that from one or more of my post. If you did, I apologize- that was not my intent.
There will always be inequities in life, and that includes football.
Do we really want every school to have the same resources? If we do, how do we accomplish that?
As Pioneer so eloquently said, life just ain't fair. Everyone has to live with that. All the complaining in the world won't change that.
[/quote]
I think the real problem most folks have is not private schools. It is PA's success.
[/quote]
Quote from: PA Dad on December 03, 2016, 08:11:05 pm
I, and other fans from private schools, have consistently admitted that private schools have advantages over public schools. That's why PA plays up two classifications.
Quote from: PA Dad on May 30, 2016, 06:19:02 pm
Thanks for the info. I guess private schools are just superior!
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 10:54:49 pm
QuoteThere will always be inequities in life, and that includes football.
Do we really want every school to have the same resources? If we do, how do we accomplish that?
As Pioneer so eloquently said, life just ain't fair. Everyone has to live with that. All the complaining in the world won't change that.
I don't see the problem here with this quote. It's a fact of life. I hate using this cliche, but it is what it is. I've been a 'have', as well as a 'have-not' at various points in my life, and I see nothing wrong with anything PA Dad has said. In fact, I'd say he's bordering on being too gracious. PA Dad, you are more patient than I.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 07, 2016, 09:15:51 pm
Complaint by who about what?
board blew up several years ago when Shiloh had their big run for 3 years or so. Private schools budgets and such are private there is no disclosure. who complained? several folks who were not from Shiloh, the 1-4a refused to play them in Jr. High, not sure if there is still a rift after Shiloh bounced up in classification then back down.
Hi I just wanted to comment on a future HOF thread!
K bye!
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 11:04:49 pm
Quote
Thanks for the info. I guess private schools are just superior!
Wasn't it obvious that comment was tongue in cheek? I don't know, maybe you haven't read enough of his posts, but he's probably the least boastful poster on the 5A board.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 11:00:37 pm
I think the real problem most folks have is not private schools. It is PA's success.
I agree, although I understand the resentment of private schools. Private schools seem elite and the refuge of the affluent. That leads to understable resentment. But, many PA parents share my story. They did not grow up with a silver spoon.
On the other hand, private schools have undeniable advantages. There has been lots of discussion on FF about how classifications should be determined. Student population is a poor way to do it.
I really think that school resources might be a better way to do it. I realize that getting a formula to determine resources might be difficult, but I think it's doable. Maybe that would reduce, although not entirely eliminate, the current inequality.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 11:00:37 pm
I think the real problem most folks have is not private schools. It is PA's success.
Lord, I'm an idiot. I didn't realize you were quoting me. I'll crawl under a rock!
But, I don't think that's boasting about beating a have not.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 18, 2015, 09:09:06 am
Watching mercy rule games is just not much fun. And, if you're capable of competing at a higher level, why not welcome the competition?
My working of the quotes leaves a bit to be desired. I took the liberty of editing for the purpose of the question at hand. I deleted our the reference to the original post.
As I said I think its more tone than any particular quote. However, I did find rereading this thread to be very interesting and hi-lights the differences of opinion on several issues, recruiting, coaching, talent, finances, facilities. All quite worth the read.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 11:04:49 pm
I'll rely on Chief's defense of me on this one. It was tongue in cheek.
The idea that you did or did not grow up afluent, even upper middle class is not necessarily a clear indication of anything. It could be that once out of poverty you swore to never go back to it or have anything to do with it, you know, Scarlet and Gone With the Wind. So you now feel you are above the masses.
Who knows, I'd have to charge you a lot to determine the underlying causes.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 11:20:39 pm
Again, I don't think this was boasting about beating the have nots. In fact, I think it squares with your premise. If the school has greater resources, it should compete with schools with similar resources.
There was the quote about leaving many games early because it bored you. Like I said, its about tone. You know, not what you say, how you say it. All that.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 11:26:53 pm
The idea that you did or did not grow up afluent, even upper middle class is not necessarily a clear indication of anything. It could be that once out of poverty you swore to never go back to it or have anything to do with it, you know, Scarlet and Gone With the Wind. So you now feel you are above the masses.
Who knows, I'd have to charge you a lot to determine the underlying causes.
Well, I'm open to psychotherapy. Do any of us know ourselves as well as we think we do?
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 11:29:07 pm
There was the quote about leaving many games early because it bored you. Like I said, its about tone. You know, not what you say, how you say it. All that.
I was trying to make the point, although probably in artfully, that PA should compete with schools with similar resources. I assume you agree with that.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 07, 2016, 11:31:01 pm
Well, I'm open to psychotherapy. Do any of us know ourselves as well as we think we do?
I know me. We're both pretty well-adjusted. At least that's what I tell myself.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on December 07, 2016, 11:41:27 pm
I know me. We're both pretty well-adjusted. At least that's what I tell myself.
Well said. But, as I get older, I realize that I'm not as normal or well adjusted as I think I am.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 07, 2016, 09:44:42 pm
You are absolutely correct. I readily admit that. But it doesn't change reality. There will always be the haves and the have nots.
But, to give my outlook some perspective, I grew up in a family with an income below the poverty level. My mother raised my brother and me as a single parent. She always told me that I could be anything I wanted to be.
I couldn't afford college so I enlisted in the Army to get the GI Bill benefits. That put me through school. With my education, thanks to the taxpayers, I've managed to climb out of poverty.
So I have some perspective on the problem of the have nots. I wish I could waive a wand and solve the problem. But reality is that there will always be inequity. The have nots just have to strive as hard as they can to advance. I'll always pull for them. I was one of them.
1. I would like to thank you for your service to our country.
2. I agree that it is reality and the sooner people in tough situations identify that is a fact of life the better their chances of improving their situation becomes.
3. You are a sensible poster that represents PA positively in my opinion.
4. I respect that you are very open to discuss topics concerning PA (mostly negative) in an (usually) unbiased manner.
I think this private vs public debate is happening in every state. I just read the USA Today top 25 poll and the top 4 high schools in the country are private. I can't remember the break down of the rest but there were many private schools in that top 25. The #1 Bishop Gorman ( Vegas) won state against a public school in Vegas by a score of 84 to 8. Now this is a much more extreme case than any school in Arkansas. I can see how this could be an issue.
Of course it's happening in every state. And not just in football. That's why I made this thread. It is on the football board so it's strictly about pa it seems. Every state is changing rules to try to equalize the playing field. It's really bad in basketball up north.
PA dad, if we did use a resources formula, do you think the privates would be willing to disclose the amount of donations or what they spend? What they pay their coaches? I think there would be some backlash from them on that. But I could be wrong.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2016, 11:26:53 pm
The idea that you did or did not grow up afluent, even upper middle class is not necessarily a clear indication of anything. It could be that once out of poverty you swore to never go back to it or have anything to do with it, you know, Scarlet and Gone With the Wind. So you now feel you are above the masses.
Who knows, I'd have to charge you a lot to determine the underlying causes.
Every time someone offers you an olive branch, you light it on fire.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 08, 2016, 06:31:12 am
Every time someone offers you an olive branch, you light it on fire.
^^+1
Quote from: PA Dad on December 07, 2016, 10:37:17 pm
Maybe we should organize conferences by resources rather than student population.
Is it correct to conclude you meant to say classifications, PA Dad?
May I add, this is a great conversation. I'm enjoying reading this.
Quote from: The_Pioneer on December 06, 2016, 04:17:57 pm
Why does everyone assume life is fair? Schools aren't equal and neither are athletic programs. Go to one of these Eastern Arkansas schools and most of them would consider Paragould to be unfair compared to their facilities. It is what it is. Live with it or whine about it.
This is correct. Paragould football has not had a winning season in more than 10 years.
I think folks just want to feel that at least in high school athletics its "fair". Yeah I know, ain't nothing fair. Just try not to make it so obvious. Everyone likes to see their kids do well and it bothers us when we think they are not getting a fair shot.
Private schools sort of emphasize the imbalance, at least to us public school supporters.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 08, 2016, 09:58:30 am
I think folks just want to feel that at least in high school athletics its "fair". Yeah I know, ain't nothing fair. Just try not to make it so obvious. Everyone likes to see their kids do well and it bothers us when we think they are not getting a fair shot.
Private schools sort of emphasize the imbalance, at least to us public school supporters.
Which public school is yours, and how specifically is it disadvantaged vis a vis PA? Not arguing, I generally want to hear your opinion on this.
I have much respect for PA Dad. He is more logical in his reflection on the trending issue of parity. I welcome his lack of boasting and his openness to explore methods of bringing parity. I don't recall him using the analogy of laying down.
I for one hold the PA kids and coaches with much respect. Anyone trying to argue that the PA kids don't work hard would be an idiot. I really don't enjoy seeing the whole situation turn people against one another. The current system brings resentment from one side, while the other is able lavish in success. The solution to the problem, in my opinion, is finding a way to bring parity to athletics. I really don't know that pushing the private schools into their own league would really be the solution. Yes, I boldly stated that it was the only solution!! I will admit that, but in the end that will hamper the private schools in way that would be unfair to them. I will not support the kids of private schools being alienated in that manner either. Punishing them for the success of their parents and right to choose private education is not the American way. I'm afraid that if no working solution can be found and worked out by both sides we will in the end see this happen.
I'll be the first to admit that I can come across as brash, yet I think one can understand the resentment that is being displayed nation wide on this very subject.
This year was the first time in 20 years that I didn't attend the 5A championship game when I was able to with no interference. When the guys that I sit with and ride down from the foothills of the north with asked why, I responded "winter is coming and Wynne has no chance."
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 08, 2016, 10:02:04 am
Which public school is yours, and how specifically is it disadvantaged vis a vis PA? Not arguing, I generally want to hear your opinion on this.
Warren is at a disadvantage.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 08, 2016, 07:19:51 am
Is it correct to conclude you meant to say classifications, PA Dad?
Yes, I meant classifications. Sorry.
I know you've been very interested in the topic of how schools are classified. What do you think about organizing by resources? Is it feasible?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 08, 2016, 06:27:38 am
Of course it's happening in every state. And not just in football. That's why I made this thread. It is on the football board so it's strictly about pa it seems. Every state is changing rules to try to equalize the playing field. It's really bad in basketball up north.
PA dad, if we did use a resources formula, do you think the privates would be willing to disclose the amount of donations or what they spend? What they pay their coaches? I think there would be some backlash from them on that. But I could be wrong.
You guys think I know more than I do. I have no idea how the private schools would react to a proposal that classifications be determined by resources. But, if it was that or go to a private only classification, I think they'd come around, even if reluctantly.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 08, 2016, 10:56:05 am
Warren is at a disadvantage.
You bet it is. And most schools would love to have Warren's disadvantages!
Quote from: PA Dad on December 08, 2016, 11:08:46 am
You bet it is. And most schools would love to have Warren's disadvantages!
Hahaha. Just adding some humor to the topic.
Proceed.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 08, 2016, 11:01:30 am
You guys think I know more than I do. I have no idea how the private schools would react to a proposal that classifications be determined by resources. But, if it was that or go to a private only classification, I think they'd come around, even if reluctantly.
Maybe they would. I feel like disclosing that information would lead to more discussion as to why they should be in their own post season league though.
Why not make it to where if they give financial need to athletes, then they play in the highest classification. If they don't, then they play where they are supposed to be based on enrollment?
Quote from: AirWarren on December 08, 2016, 10:56:05 am
Warren is at a disadvantage.
Hard coaching that many D1 athletes and making sure they all get enough reps for scouts to see.
I appreciate the positive comments about me. I'll get the check in the mail to those who posted them!
I've come to realize that the private schools can't just ignore the widespread sentiment that they have a distinct advantage and that something has to change. If we are not open to that idea, I'm afraid we will be relegated to a private only classification, and I don't want to see that happen.
MDX, I apologize for being hard on you for reopening this thread. I thought it was just aimed at PA, and I now see that the problem is much bigger than PA.
MDX, let me reverse the question you asked me? How would Batesville or other public schools react to a suggestion that classifications be determined by the resources of the school?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 08, 2016, 11:18:35 am
Maybe they would. I feel like disclosing that information would lead to more discussion as to why they should be in their own post season league though.
Why not make it to where if they give financial need to athletes, then they play in the highest classification. If they don't, then they play where they are supposed to be based on enrollment?
I think that would work for PA. But, are you going to put Conway Christian and ECS in 7A? There's no way that the very small private schools could compete in 7A.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 08, 2016, 11:20:20 am
I appreciate the positive comments about me. I'll get the check in the mail to those who posted them!
I've come to realize that the private schools can't just ignore the widespread sentiment that they have a distinct advantage and that something has to change. If we are not open to that idea, I'm afraid we will be relegated to a private only classification, and I don't want to see that happen.
MDX, I apologize for being hard on you for reopening this thread. I thought it was just aimed at PA, and I now see that the problem is much bigger than PA.
MDX, let me reverse the question you asked me? How would Batesville or other public schools react to a suggestion that classifications be determined by the resources of the school?
I'm not sure how it would happen..I guess the main question I have is how would we determine this? Is it what they spend on football or overall athletics? I don't think many would have a problem if they did it sport specific, where you might be in a lower classification in basketball than football. However, it would cause huge uproars within the district themselves because people would actually realize how much more is being spent on different sports.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 08, 2016, 11:22:11 am
I think that would work for PA. But, are you going to put Conway Christian and ECS in 7A? There's no way that the very small private schools could compete in 7A.
I think those schools should probably elect to stop giving financial aid to the athletes then. I think TN has Division 1 and Division II for this. Division I includes the schools that allow financial aid for athletes and gives them a multiplier, Division II does not permit them to participate in this. I'm not sure how well it works though.
IMO Public schools are blaming private schools for their own problems. It is a BIG problem no doubt and I don't think anyone has a solution. Everything in life isn't fair but the things that should be fair...should be fair or as close as possible. There should NOT be the huge disparity in the quality of an education that we have here in Arkansas. We should be making every effort to close the gap realizing that quality won't be exactly the same everywhere but that it can be much more uniform than what we have now.
Also, I think there is too much focusing on athletic equality vs academic equality.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 07, 2016, 11:44:02 pm
Well said. But, as I get older, I realize that I'm not as normal or well adjusted as I think I am.
Everyone seems normal until you get to know them!! ;D ;D
I saw that on a sign one time! LOL!!
Quote from: zebradynasty on December 08, 2016, 11:43:41 am
IMO Public schools are blaming private schools for their own problems. It is a BIG problem no doubt and I don't think anyone has a solution. Everything in life isn't fair but the things that should be fair...should be fair or as close as possible. There should NOT be the huge disparity in the quality of an education that we have here in Arkansas. We should be making every effort to close the gap realizing that quality won't be exactly the same everywhere but that it can be much more uniform than what we have now.
Also, I think there is too much focusing on athletic equality vs academic equality.
This is a great point. When some on here posted PA's academic accomplishments it went without comment. But the gap between PA (and ECS in this case) and the public schools is much wider academically than in athletics. Approximately 5% of this year's PA class will go to an Ivy League school, while from public schools in the state the percentage is likely one-tenth of one percent (I'm estimating that number). Said another way, you are 50 times more likely to go to an Ivy out of PA or ECS than a public school. The same is true with scholarships and the UofA, etc.
That's where the real debate should be, and our efforts spent improving the public schools. But people don't seem as upset about this.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 08, 2016, 12:21:12 pm
This is a great point. When some on here posted PA's academic accomplishments it went without comment. But the gap between PA (and ECS in this case) and the public schools is much wider academically than in athletics. Approximately 5% of this year's PA class will go to an Ivy League school, while from public schools in the state the percentage is likely one-tenth of one percent (I'm estimating that number). Said another way, you are 50 times more likely to go to an Ivy out of PA or ECS than a public school. The same is true with scholarships and the UofA, etc.
That's where the real debate should be, and our efforts spent improving the public schools. But people don't seem as upset about this.
Of course people are upset about this...but this is a sports forum.
Quote from: zebradynasty on December 08, 2016, 11:43:41 am
IMO Public schools are blaming private schools for their own problems. It is a BIG problem no doubt and I don't think anyone has a solution. Everything in life isn't fair but the things that should be fair...should be fair or as close as possible. There should NOT be the huge disparity in the quality of an education that we have here in Arkansas. We should be making every effort to close the gap realizing that quality won't be exactly the same everywhere but that it can be much more uniform than what we have now.
Also, I think there is too much focusing on athletic equality vs academic equality.
+1. Academics should always be the top priority. Football (and other sports) should just be a tag along.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 08, 2016, 12:27:23 pm
+1. Academics should always be the top priority. Football (and other sports) should just be a tag along.
(http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/slides/photos/003/652/732/c95b60df67a0e6759615cd2c8f97bbaf_crop_north.jpg?w=630&h=420&q=75)
He begs to differ. He was even going to pull Mox's scholarship from Brown if he didn't play by the rules.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 08, 2016, 12:23:41 pm
Of course people are upset about this...but this is a sports forum.
Same issue, different manifestation.
Back to sports.....
Keep in mind, while you are having this discussion, that the 5A East has been won by Batesville or Wynne for, at least, the past 5 years.
In fact, I would love to know the last time that Batesville or Wynne did NOT win the the 5A East! (Perhaps 2009? There was a 3-way tie in 2015; but Blytheville had to travel.)
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 08, 2016, 11:40:39 am
I think those schools should probably elect to stop giving financial aid to the athletes then. I think TN has Division 1 and Division II for this. Division I includes the schools that allow financial aid for athletes and gives them a multiplier, Division II does not permit them to participate in this. I'm not sure how well it works though.
This could get tricky as well. Because my wife is a teacher at PA, we get a significant discount on tuition... which falls under the financial assistance umbrella. My daughter has been going to PA since she was four years old. Once she got to high school, she started playing soccer for the school. In your scenario, in order to not get penalized for providing financial assistance to athletes, should PA take away our discount?
What about other students who are getting need-based assistance. If they started in 1st grade, then started playing football in 6th grade, would they have to forego their financial assistance because they are now an athlete? Keep in mind that a high number of PA students receiving aid came to the school long before they were old enough for official school sports. The aid was given for them to be here as students; not as athletes. Assuming they still need the financial help, should they be disqualified from athletics when they get old enough for sports?
Quote from: Grond on December 08, 2016, 12:45:34 pm
Back to sports.....
Keep in mind, while you are having this discussion, that the 5A East has been won by Batesville or Wynne for, at least, the past 5 years.
In fact, I would love to know the last time that Batesville or Wynne did NOT win the the 5A East! (Perhaps 2009? There was a 3-way tie in 2015; but Blytheville had to travel.)
I think FC won in 09. Maybe? I'm not certain on that.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 08, 2016, 12:23:41 pm
Of course people are upset about this...but this is a sports forum.
We are talking sports but public schools are for everyone who lives in a certain attendance area. Everyone can attend public school. Private schools can be selective as to who they let in. Many give admittance test. They can turn away low achieving students.
All of this discussion leads me back to why the concept of promotion / relegation at the end of each year would be a step in the right direction IMO. It would need to be done on an individual sport basis, and yes that would cause some headaches as well but no worse than the combined classification districts have caused....
That's exactly why I said that the wrong person with the right information is a problem for the private schools. The Academic equality in the public schools conversation has opened the school choice option and resulted in crazy looking school zones. Which results in more people choosing private schools. People parlaying academics and athletics into a lawsuit or some type of appeal is a real possibility when we look at the court rulings across the country that were once unimaginable to me. Legal marijuana, gay marriage, etc...
At one time there was a movement that had to do with tax dollars being withheld or payed toward education and people who were using private schools wanted reduced taxes or refunds?? Am I right on that?? Not 100% on that. My point is, parlaying something like that, athletics, and academics to use as platform to prove that parity is not there and something major will start happening.
Maybe that's what needs to happen to get people to respect each other and stand for the National Anthem, not cross sacred lands for pipelines, stop killing police officers, etc....
Ok...... Back to the fun stuff!!! PA Dad or Red Devil Alum, take a pot shot at me or make a sarcastic reference and lets dance!! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 08, 2016, 01:10:25 pm
That's exactly why I said that the wrong person with the right information is a problem for the private schools. The Academic equality in the public schools conversation has opened the school choice option and resulted in crazy looking school zones. Which results in more people choosing private schools. People parlaying academics and athletics into a lawsuit or some type of appeal is a real possibility when we look at the court rulings across the country that were once unimaginable to me. Legal marijuana, gay marriage, etc...
At one time there was a movement that had to do with tax dollars being withheld or payed toward education and people who were using private schools wanted reduced taxes or refunds?? Am I right on that?? Not 100% on that. My point is, parlaying something like that, athletics, and academics to use as platform to prove that parity is not there and something major will start happening.
Maybe that's what needs to happen to get people to respect each other and stand for the National Anthem, not cross sacred lands for pipelines, stop killing police officers, etc....
Ok...... Back to the fun stuff!!! PA Dad or Red Devil Alum, take a pot shot at me or make a sarcastic reference and lets dance!! ;D ;D ;D
You got the wrong guy. I have two left feet. Watching me try to dance would be very entertaining.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 08, 2016, 01:09:45 pm
All of this discussion leads me back to why the concept of promotion / relegation at the end of each year would be a step in the right direction IMO. It would need to be done on an individual sport basis, and yes that would cause some headaches as well but no worse than the combined classification districts have caused....
I agree that a performance based system is probably the best and easiest solution to the problem.
Does anyone know if the AAA is considering any proposed changes to the way the classifications are determined?
Wow, people are getting off on some bizarre tangents here. It reminds me of some ethical debates where people give these outlandish scenarios, "would you be against abortion if an alien came down from the ufo and released every person on death row. Then the prisoners morphed into cyclops who went around impregnating quadriplegic third world orphans"? let's walk it back a bit people.
If you are a teacher and your child receives a reduction in tuition at PA and they have attended for years, if they become a top notch athlete that is not recruiting. If an inner city family applies and receives financial assistance for their 6th grade student who excels academically and that student becomes a star football player that is not recruiting. As far as athletics go most stars won't usually start to show superior ability until the 8th or 9th grade. Any player attending PA before the 8th grade is not a recruit. There is still too much of a crap shot at that age, some peak early some develop late.
If there is a star football player in the 8th or 9th grade. The kid looks out of place against junior high talent. He's throwing darts or rushing for 200 yards a game, maybe he stands 6'3 at age 13. If the school contacts the family and say's "come play football for us, we'll cover the tuition" That's wrong, that's recruiting. Anything else is fair and just.
Quote from: JessieP on December 08, 2016, 01:28:41 pm
Wow, people are getting off on some bizarre tangents here. It reminds me of some ethical debates where people give these outlandish scenarios, "would you be against abortion if an alien came down from the ufo and released every person on death row. Then the prisoners morphed into cyclops who went around impregnating quadriplegic third world orphans"? let's walk it back a bit people.
If you are a teacher and your child receives a reduction in tuition at PA and they have attended for years, if they become a top notch athlete that is not recruiting. If an inner city family applies and receives financial assistance for their 6th grade student who excels academically and that student becomes a star football player that is not recruiting. As far as athletics go most stars won't usually start to show superior ability until the 8th or 9th grade. Any player attending PA before the 8th grade is not a recruit. There is still too much of a crap shot at that age, some peak early some develop late.
If there is a star football player in the 8th or 9th grade. The kid looks out of place against junior high talent. He's throwing darts or rushing for 200 yards a game, maybe he stands 6'3 at age 13. If the school contacts the family and say's "come play football for us, we'll cover the tuition" That's wrong, that's recruiting. Anything else is fair and just.
I don't think anyone is really talking about the recruiting at this point.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on December 08, 2016, 01:10:25 pm
That's exactly why I said that the wrong person with the right information is a problem for the private schools. The Academic equality in the public schools conversation has opened the school choice option and resulted in crazy looking school zones. Which results in more people choosing private schools. People parlaying academics and athletics into a lawsuit or some type of appeal is a real possibility when we look at the court rulings across the country that were once unimaginable to me. Legal marijuana, gay marriage, etc...
At one time there was a movement that had to do with tax dollars being withheld or payed toward education and people who were using private schools wanted reduced taxes or refunds?? Am I right on that?? Not 100% on that. My point is, parlaying something like that, athletics, and academics to use as platform to prove that parity is not there and something major will start happening.
Maybe that's what needs to happen to get people to respect each other and stand for the National Anthem, not cross sacred lands for pipelines, stop killing police officers, etc....
Ok...... Back to the fun stuff!!! PA Dad or Red Devil Alum, take a pot shot at me or make a sarcastic reference and lets dance!! ;D ;D ;D
You are probably right about the tax questions, but I'm not really sure. People can make the argument that they are paying for school twice if they send their kids to private school, but I look at it as part of the choice we made not to take advantage of free "tax-paid" education.
Also, the argument doesn't hold water since the taxes aren't specific to families of school children. There are many people who don't have kids or will never have kids who are paying these taxes... as are grandparents whose grandkids don't live in Arkansas.
Ultimately, I don't mind paying the school taxes because I want our public schools to succeed. I'd love to see a day when the quality of education in Central Arkansas public schools is so good that there is no longer an academic need for choosing private schools over public in this part of the state. But right now, in my opinion, that need exists and that is why private schools in Little Rock are thriving.
Quote from: JessieP on December 08, 2016, 01:28:41 pm
Wow, people are getting off on some bizarre tangents here. It reminds me of some ethical debates where people give these outlandish scenarios, "would you be against abortion if an alien came down from the ufo and released every person on death row. Then the prisoners morphed into cyclops who went around impregnating quadriplegic third world orphans"? let's walk it back a bit people.
If you are a teacher and your child receives a reduction in tuition at PA and they have attended for years, if they become a top notch athlete that is not recruiting. If an inner city family applies and receives financial assistance for their 6th grade student who excels academically and that student becomes a star football player that is not recruiting. As far as athletics go most stars won't usually start to show superior ability until the 8th or 9th grade. Any player attending PA before the 8th grade is not a recruit. There is still too much of a crap shot at that age, some peak early some develop late.
If there is a star football player in the 8th or 9th grade. The kid looks out of place against junior high talent. He's throwing darts or rushing for 200 yards a game, maybe he stands 6'3 at age 13. If the school contacts the family and say's "come play football for us, we'll cover the tuition" That's wrong, that's recruiting. Anything else is fair and just.
I think you misunderstood the purpose of my answer. I was responding to the idea that private schools should have to play at the highest division if they provide financial assistance to athletes. This is not about recruiting - it's about what classification a school should play in if they have athletes receiving financial aid.
My point was that a lot of students receive financial aid before they ever become athletes. In the proposed scenario, would these students have to give up their aid when they join a school sports team in order to allow the school to avoid having to play in the highest division?
I agree, private schools should play at the highest classification. That should be the law.
So you think it would be fair for a school of 300 to go against a school with 2000+?
Quote from: STBruin on December 08, 2016, 03:37:35 pm
So you think it would be fair for a school of 300 to go against a school with 2000+?
Warren lost to Fayetteville by 14.
Warren lost to southside by 7.
With the athletes And roster size Pa has, you could compete in the 7a or 6a.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 08, 2016, 03:46:15 pm
Warren lost to Fayetteville by 14.
Warren lost to southside by 1.
With the athletes And roster size Pa has, you could compete in the 7a or 6a.
I agree. PA could. But ECS and Conway Christian could not.
I think what most of us agree on is that the classifications should provide the best competition possible between the schools in the classification. Putting ECS in 7A would not provide good competition for anyone.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 08, 2016, 03:48:23 pm
I agree. PA could. But ECS and Conway Christian could not.
I think what most of us agree on is that the classifications should provide the best competition possible between the schools in the classification. Putting ECS in 7A would not provide good competition for anyone.
This I agree with.
So we're now turning the AAA into the ACA (Obamacare), with all these new proposed regulations, restrictions, and loopholes. If some of these proposals were put into action, the AAA handbook would be bigger than the tax code. If changes are ever going to be made, I like the merit system. If you win, you move up; if you're lousy, you move down. The only things needed to be hashed out would be how many wins constitute moving up or down. The only exception would be if a school doesn't want to move down. The only real difference would be new a new cycle every year instead of every 3 years.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on December 08, 2016, 04:11:33 pm
So we're now turning the AAA into the ACA (Obamacare), with all these new proposed regulations, restrictions, and loopholes. If some of these proposals were put into action, the AAA handbook would be bigger than the tax code. If changes are ever going to be made, I like the merit system. If you win, you move up; if you're lousy, you move down. The only things needed to be hashed out would be how many wins constitute moving up or down. The only exception would be if a school doesn't want to move down. The only real difference would be new a new cycle every year instead of every 3 years.
Several states will be shifting to a success system soon I think. Schools that appear in championships 2 years in a row or so will probably move up. Granted, Batesville appeared and lost in 3 in a row..and with this system they would move up. But they would probably have moved back down this year because of their lack of success in 6A. I think this system is the easiest to implement and would work the best.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on December 08, 2016, 04:11:33 pm
So we're now turning the AAA into the ACA (Obamacare), with all these new proposed regulations, restrictions, and loopholes. If some of these proposals were put into action, the AAA handbook would be bigger than the tax code. If changes are ever going to be made, I like the merit system. If you win, you move up; if you're lousy, you move down. The only things needed to be hashed out would be how many wins constitute moving up or down. The only exception would be if a school doesn't want to move down. The only real difference would be new a new cycle every year instead of every 3 years.
I agree. It's the easiest to implement and it makes sense.
The Private school should have a choice as to what classification they wish to participate in. I am assuming PA has about 450 students, yet they play in 5A which would be up two classifications from say 3A, which is probably where they would be if left alone based on enrollment. Remember, Shiloh Christian at the time was a 2A school and played Springdale which at the time was a 6A school to a 7/7 tie. Of course Gus was the Shiloh coach at the time, which again was the difference maker. The Saturday version of the DG in section C simply said "Nothing Proved". Bull Crap! No 2A school should remotely have the talent to compete against the weakest 6A school in the state. It was a combination of courted players, and darn good coaching. Nothing else. I like to call it the Football Triangle. It takes Great Coaching, Great Players, and Great work ethic. Remove any one of those elements and you have nothing. Public schools compete very well against the privates, and when they are defeated, it usually comes down to who made the fewest mistakes during a game.
Quote from: JessieP on December 08, 2016, 03:25:07 pm
I agree, private schools should play at the highest classification. That should be the law.
So Episcopal, which went 1-9 in 3A and has about 25 players, should play in 7a?
Quote from: FD4 on December 08, 2016, 04:32:43 pm
The Private school should have a choice as to what classification they wish to participate in. I am assuming PA has about 450 students, yet they play in 5A which would be up two classifications from say 3A, which is probably where they would be if left alone based on enrollment. Remember, Shiloh Christian at the time was a 2A school and played Springdale which at the time was a 6A school to a 7/7 tie. Of course Gus was the Shiloh coach at the time, which again was the difference maker. The Saturday version of the DG in section C simply said "Nothing Proved". Bull Crap! No 2A school should remotely have the talent to compete against the weakest 6A school in the state. It was a combination of courted players, and darn good coaching. Nothing else. I like to call it the Football Triangle. It takes Great Coaching, Great Players, and Great work ethic. Remove any one of those elements and you have nothing. Public schools compete very well against the privates, and when they are defeated, it usually comes down to who made the fewest mistakes during a game.
PA has 301.
I think PA could compete with the 7A schools, but depth would end up killing them.
Alum,
I'm afraid I'll have to call you out on a previous post. While a disparity in quality does exists between P.A. and public schools which has some impact on achievement, there are a number of other factors that play into achievement, some of which are greater than the quality of the program. The research is quite clear concerning this issue. That said, high quality schools can help "level the playing field", combined with other factors. As far as Ivy League acceptance rates, a primary factor in acceptance is the "legacy" factor. If you're not acquainted with the term, look it up.
Since I'm here, I will chime in on the sports disparity issue that has not received much attention lately on this thread, though it may have earlier, namely the disparity in the quality of the coaching staff, and in particular, the head coach. Is there a way to provide equity with that factor? I think not. I'm tempted to include some sarcastic scenarios to address this likely primary factor in program success, but my post is far too long already😃.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on December 08, 2016, 05:15:46 pm
Alum,
I'm afraid I'll have to call you out on a previous post. While a disparity in quality does exists between P.A. and public schools which has some impact on achievement, there are a number of other factors that play into achievement, some of which are greater than the quality of the program. The research is quite clear concerning this issue. That said, high quality schools can help "level the playing field", combined with other factors. As far as Ivy League acceptance rates, a primary factor in acceptance is the "legacy" factor. If you're not acquainted with the term, look it up.
Since I'm here, I will chime in on the sports disparity issue that has not received much attention lately on this thread, though it may have earlier, namely the disparity in the quality of the coaching staff, and in particular, the head coach. Is there a way to provide equity with that factor? I think not. I'm tempted to include some sarcastic scenarios to address this likely primary factor in program success, but my post is far too long already😃.
I agree with you regarding the coach. There will never be parity there.
But the point is not to achieve absolute parity. If that happened every game would end in a tie. That would be no fun at all.
I think the goal is to get classifications in which there the teams have similar resources and all the teams are competitive. That's probably an unreachable goal but I think it's the objective.
Very late to the party here, but the question I have is this: Is this more of a LR problem than it is a private vs public problem? I believe Mr. Poore will make a big impact in LRSD if given the chance, but there have been too many bad leaders for too long and it has cost the district dearly. Just look at the growth of Cabot, Conway, Bryant, NLR etc... and the success of PA and other private schools. Many families with the means to do so have either put their kids in private schools or moved to the suburbs.
We don't have that problem here in NWA because we have fantastic public schools. Yes, we have Shiloh, which is very good, but there are several great public options as well. If folks want to go to Shiloh, great, but their kids can get just as good of an education at Bentonville, Rogers, Springdale or Fayetteville. Sprinkle in some great 6A and 4A public options and you can pretty much find what you are looking for, big or small. Add in the great job market and that pretty much explains the growth.
Just my two cents, but I like a good mix of both public and private schools. Options are a great thing for parents.
Quote from: Razorback Red on December 08, 2016, 06:43:34 pm
Very late to the party here, but the question I have is this: Is this more of a LR problem than it is a private vs public problem? I believe Mr. Poore will make a big impact in LRSD if given the chance, but there have been too many bad leaders for too long and it has cost the district dearly. Just look at the growth of Cabot, Conway, Bryant, NLR etc... and the success of PA and other private schools. Many families with the means to do so have either put their kids in private schools or moved to the suburbs.
We don't have that problem here in NWA because we have fantastic public schools. Yes, we have Shiloh, which is very good, but there are several great public options as well. If folks want to go to Shiloh, great, but their kids can get just as good of an education at Bentonville, Rogers, Springdale or Fayetteville. Sprinkle in some great 6A and 4A public options and you can pretty much find what you are looking for, big or small. Add in the great job market and that pretty much explains the growth.
Just my two cents, but I like a good mix of both public and private schools. Options are a great thing for parents.
Agreed. As I said a little earlier, I would love to see the quality of the public schools in Little Rock get to the point where they are on par with the private schools. In most places in Arkansas, the public schools are probably better than the private schools. That's just not currently the case in the Little Rock area. I saw a post today that showed the LRSD was #48 in the state based on students' test scores (maybe ACT?). Pulaski County Special School District and NLR School District were nowhere to be found in the top 100.
Should a school of 300 be forced to play against schools with 2,000? if they offer financial aid to athletes, absolutely, 100% yes. Anything else is a tilted playing field. Back in the 70's and 80's there was a very famous school in downtown Los Angeles, Verbum Dei. It was a Catholic boys school of only 500 students. They were a National powerhouse. At one time they had more players in the NBA then any high school in the Nation. They offered scholarships to top notch inner city basketball players. The California CIF made them play in the highest classification they had. Every week they played against schools with enrollments of 4,000 or more. The rationale was simple, you take away from other schools to field the best. Therefore you must play against the best.
Let's play Devil's Advocate, why doesn't PA want to play in the 7A? there is always a question mark about how good are they really. Very few people ever consider them the best in the State. I mean if it's all hard work and coaching then enrollment should have no bearing on it. As much as some people try and belittle their success, and that is not fair, they also seem to fall back on the 'we have have 300' excuse. It's an adage as old as time, you want to be the best, you beat the best.
Quote from: JessieP on December 08, 2016, 07:57:50 pm
Should a school of 300 be forced to play against schools with 2,000? if they offer financial aid to athletes, absolutely, 100% yes. Anything else is a tilted playing field. Back in the 70's and 80's there was a very famous school in downtown Los Angeles, Verbum Dei. It was a Catholic boys school of only 500 students. They were a National powerhouse. At one time they had more players in the NBA then any high school in the Nation. They offered scholarships to top notch inner city basketball players. The California CIF made them play in the highest classification they had. Every week they played against schools with enrollments of 4,000 or more. The rationale was simple, you take away from other schools to field the best. Therefore you must play against the best.
Let's play Devil's Advocate, why doesn't PA want to play in the 7A? there is always a question mark about how good are they really. Very few people ever consider them the best in the State. I mean if it's all hard work and coaching then enrollment should have no bearing on it. As much as some people try and belittle their success, and that is not fair, they also seem to fall back on the 'we have have 300' excuse. It's an adage as old as time, you want to be the best, you beat the best.
Again this whole discussion evolves around football. PA is average in the 2 other big sports (basketball, baseball) PA football has been built for the last 10 years. Alot of their parents know to hold their kids back or to get them into this program early. Also going to PA is a choice....anyone in the LR or surrounding metro area can send their kids to PA if they choose to fork out the $$. They play who is front of them and they got beat by East High in Utah.
Then there is that once in a while small public school that is just over the top better than is rated. For instance, Junction City once beat the breaks off Barton in the championship game, it was not even close. That particular team could have lined up and beat 90% of anyone in the state that year. Bearden fielded a team recently that was hands down one of the best in the state, could have beat Wynne, Marion, and a lot more if they lined them up. Year in and year out however, small enrollment schools are best left to compete on a level playing field. If private schools like Pulaski Academy have an attraction for quality athletes, even if it is one sport dominant, then so be it. Consider the accomplishment of beating a team that just happened to have all A players on both sides of the ball if your a public school like say Wynne or Alma or SH or Morrilton. You have done a great job with simply the home grown talent. Sure getting beat leaves a bad taste in your mouth especially when its a championship game. The old saying still applies, "In order to be the man you have to beat the man". WOOOOOOOoooooooo.
Quote from: STBruin on December 08, 2016, 04:40:38 pm
I think PA could compete with the 7A schools, but depth would end up killing them.
I watched PA kill Bryant high school in a scrimmage who made it to the semis this year and a few years ago PA beat Fayetteville (who went on to win state) in a scrimmage so badly that Fayetteville turned the scoreboard off. I've never seen anything like it. PA was loaded that year had Hunter Henry. But I think PA could hang with most 7A schools.
I agree, as long as that talent pool is there, but you always have to work hard. Remember....
"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard"
Quote from: Freight Train on December 09, 2016, 03:19:05 pm
I watched PA kill Bryant high school in a scrimmage who made it to the semis this year and a few years ago PA beat Fayetteville (who went on to win state) in a scrimmage so badly that Fayetteville turned the scoreboard off. I've never seen anything like it. PA was loaded that year had Hunter Henry. But I think PA could hang with most 7A schools.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) Just play them in a real game already!!!
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 09, 2016, 03:57:04 pm
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) Just play them in a real game already!!!
We will if you can arrange it.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 09, 2016, 04:17:16 pm
We will if you can arrange it.
I don't have pull with any school in the state, unfortunately. Maybe we can have the Dem Gaz write a story about how the large schools are scared of PA so PA has to spend thousands to travel to Utah and Cali to find non-conference games?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 09, 2016, 04:23:40 pm
I don't have pull with any school in the state, unfortunately. Maybe we can have the Dem Gaz write a story about how the large schools are scared of PA so PA has to spend thousands to travel to Utah and Cali to find non-conference games?
That would be funny! The Big Boys would be howling.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 09, 2016, 04:25:49 pm
That would be funny! The Big Boys would be howling.
Agreed. The pressure would be on them. I think we can make it happen. Unfortunately, I don't have any pull with anyone at the Dem Gaz either. Surely one of you PA people do?
I would like to see PA play Bastrop, LA... They have a history of playing 4A schools in AR... Would be a good match up, I would think Bastrop in AR would be 6/7A...
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 09, 2016, 04:51:06 pm
I would like to see PA play Bastrop, LA... They have a history of playing 4A schools in AR... Would be a good match up, I would think Bastrop in AR would be 6/7A...
Neville.
West Monroe.
Sterlington.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 09, 2016, 05:09:14 pm
Neville.
West Monroe.
Sterlington.
Evangel would probably sign up...
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 09, 2016, 05:20:37 pm
Evangel would probably sign up...
Evangel is actually on the schedule for next year.
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 09, 2016, 05:20:37 pm
Evangel would probably sign up...
We're playing them next year.
PA plays Shreveport Evangal, Sand Springs, OK and Parkway, Bossier City, LA in OOC play next year.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 09, 2016, 08:19:04 pm
PA plays Shreveport Evangal, Sand Springs, OK and Parkway, Bossier City, LA in OOC play next year.
In before MDX says they all suck. 😄
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 08, 2016, 10:02:04 am
Which public school is yours, and how specifically is it disadvantaged vis a vis PA? Not arguing, I generally want to hear your opinion on this.
Does it matter which public school is mine? All public schools start off at a disadvantage of some sort. Money, facilities, support, recruiting issues, (call it what you Like, I still think the very nature of a private schools livelihood is recruiting students) the ability to attrackt kids from a wide area.
As far as putting private schools in an unfair position if they have to play other private schools in their own league, really? They chose to be a member of a private school, so be a member in everything. I'm curious to know how many public schools belong to many varied Private school organizations around the state and or country.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 08, 2016, 04:39:29 pm
PA has 301.
So PA has 301 students, and without knowing for sure it seemed that the football team had close to 80 boys on the sideline? Is there another school in the state that has even close to that type participation from their male student body? That's impressive! Either Kelly is worried his system wouldn't work somewhere else or he gets well compensated there! To have his success and the talent/numbers from a 3a level enrollment is far more of an achievement than Gus had and look where he is! Not being sarcastic, just eye opening.
Quote from: 86jacketstchamps on December 10, 2016, 12:39:44 am
So PA has 301 students, and without knowing for sure it seemed that the football team had close to 80 boys on the sideline? Is there another school in the state that has even close to that type participation from their male student body? That's impressive! Either Kelly is worried his system wouldn't work somewhere else or he gets well compensated there! To have his success and the talent/numbers from a 3a level enrollment is far more of an achievement than Gus had and look where he is! Not being sarcastic, just eye opening.
One point, by the time the playoffs start, the ninth grade team's season is over, so they dress out for the playoffs. Still great numbers, but what you saw was 9-12.
1365 kids in the school. That's K through 12.
It's a tiny school.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 10, 2016, 12:50:49 am
1365 kids in the school. That's K through 12.
It's a tiny school.
yup only bigger than 63% of schools in state. Those numbers are normal 4a numbers
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 09, 2016, 11:59:56 pm
Does it matter which public school is mine? All public schools start off at a disadvantage of some sort. Money, facilities, support, recruiting issues, (call it what you Like, I still think the very nature of a private schools livelihood is recruiting students) the ability to attrackt kids from a wide area.
One question in your opinion what is the 1 biggest advantage a private school has?
Quote from: Made on December 10, 2016, 12:08:34 pm
One question in your opinion what is the 1 biggest advantage a private school has?
I don't think there is an answer to your question. There may be in some circumstances, but it's typically a combination of several advantages.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 10, 2016, 01:09:47 pm
I don't think there is an answer to your question. There may be in some circumstances, but it's typically a combination of several advantages.
....I can see where you see several advantages, but they all stem from one thing imo. Parents plain and simple. How many parents show up to parent teacher conference? how many parents are at all games....even if you are playing 4+ hours away. How many of your parents listen to a teachers point of view before making judgement on what their kid told them? How many parents in your school push their kids to play sports? be in the gym anytime its open...even at 6am, the weekend, spring, or summer? How many of your parents donated or let the team borrow tents for the sideline? brought a tv for sideline replay? brought a camera for multiple camera angles?
Every school has these parents, but its not 95-100% that you would get from a private school. The parents of students in private school are invested, if by nothing else financially and if money isn't a motivator to ensure that your kid is doing what they are supposed to be doing then I'm not sure what is.
Maybe I'm wrong...this is simply my opinion. I am not a private school supporter by any stretch of the imagination, and my children will not attend a private school. But this is something that every school across the state is trying to achieve, and I would bet the schools with better parental support are the ones with better test scores, athletic programs and the like.
Quote from: Made on December 10, 2016, 01:29:53 pm
....I can see where you see several advantages, but they all stem from one thing imo. Parents plain and simple. How many parents show up to parent teacher conference? how many parents are at all games....even if you are playing 4+ hours away. How many of your parents listen to a teachers point of view before making judgement on what their kid told them? How many parents in your school push their kids to play sports? be in the gym anytime its open...even at 6am, the weekend, spring, or summer? How many of your parents donated or let the team borrow tents for the sideline? brought a tv for sideline replay? brought a camera for multiple camera angles?
Every school has these parents, but its not 95-100% that you would get from a private school. The parents of students in private school are invested, if by nothing else financially and if money isn't a motivator to ensure that your kid is doing what they are supposed to be doing then I'm not sure what is.
Maybe I'm wrong...this is simply my opinion. I am not a private school supporter by any stretch of the imagination, and my children will not attend a private school. But this is something that every school across the state is trying to achieve, and I would bet the schools with better parental support are the ones with better test scores, athletic programs and the like.
It is hard for me to argue with any of that. I think it's a solid point.
Quote from: Made on December 10, 2016, 12:04:48 pm
yup only bigger than 63% of schools in state. Those numbers are normal 4a numbers
No sir, this would put them at the very bottom of the 4A. And all 5A schools, excluding LRCA, have 500 or more students in senior high. According to this information...
http://www.bryantdaily.com/aaa-announces-enrollment-numbers-for-2016-2018-reclassification-cycle/
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 10, 2016, 05:54:45 pm
No sir, this would put them at the very bottom of the 4A. And all 5A schools, excluding LRCA, have 500 or more students in senior high. According to this information...
http://www.bryantdaily.com/aaa-announces-enrollment-numbers-for-2016-2018-reclassification-cycle/
still above Booneville at 297 and still puts them in top 37% of schools in the state. not football schools, but all schools. Just trying to point out.....its not that tiny
Quote from: Made on December 10, 2016, 01:29:53 pm
....I can see where you see several advantages, but they all stem from one thing imo. Parents plain and simple. How many parents show up to parent teacher conference? how many parents are at all games....even if you are playing 4+ hours away. How many of your parents listen to a teachers point of view before making judgement on what their kid told them? How many parents in your school push their kids to play sports? be in the gym anytime its open...even at 6am, the weekend, spring, or summer? How many of your parents donated or let the team borrow tents for the sideline? brought a tv for sideline replay? brought a camera for multiple camera angles?
Every school has these parents, but its not 95-100% that you would get from a private school. The parents of students in private school are invested, if by nothing else financially and if money isn't a motivator to ensure that your kid is doing what they are supposed to be doing then I'm not sure what is.
Maybe I'm wrong...this is simply my opinion. I am not a private school supporter by any stretch of the imagination, and my children will not attend a private school. But this is something that every school across the state is trying to achieve, and I would bet the schools with better parental support are the ones with better test scores, athletic programs and the like.
While I can only speak for myself, spending money on private school was not the motivation to ensure that my children were "doing what they are supposed to be doing". To me teaching your children to do the right thing has absolutely nothing to do with economic factors, but doing so is just a basic tenant of being a responsible parent.
In the delta, you have top notch athletes that play one,two, and sometimes three sports, but its always football that gets the note. We have guys playing that honestly do not know where their next solid meal is going to come from, and I don't blame the player, or his family, its just the way it is sometimes. So tell me Cake, or Dad, does that situation exist at Pulaski Academy. My guess would be, probably not. Now go spew out your rhetorical nonsense about advantages. Be my guest, I want to see what your answer is to that one.
Quote from: FD4 on December 11, 2016, 05:09:48 pm
In the delta, you have top notch athletes that play one,two, and sometimes three sports, but its always football that gets the note. We have guys playing that honestly do not know where their next solid meal is going to come from, and I don't blame the player, or his family, its just the way it is sometimes. So tell me Cake, or Dad, does that situation exist at Pulaski Academy. My guess would be, probably not. Now go spew out your rhetorical nonsense about advantages. Be my guest, I want to see what your answer is to that one.
FD4, have you read my posts? I've always admitted that private schools have advantages over public schools. Do I need to do so again? I will. Private schools have a number of advantages over public schools.
And one advantage is that kids at private schools generally don't have to wonder where their next meal comes from or if daddy has a job. I get it.
Quote from: FD4 on December 11, 2016, 05:09:48 pm
In the delta, you have top notch athletes that play one,two, and sometimes three sports, but its always football that gets the note. We have guys playing that honestly do not know where their next solid meal is going to come from, and I don't blame the player, or his family, its just the way it is sometimes. So tell me Cake, or Dad, does that situation exist at Pulaski Academy. My guess would be, probably not. Now go spew out your rhetorical nonsense about advantages. Be my guest, I want to see what your answer is to that one.
Literally every single poster from PA has said the school has advantages because of its financial position. You are just making up things so you can be indignant.
What did he make up?
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 11, 2016, 09:15:05 pm
What did he make up?
He said PA "spews" about not having advantages. We've all acknowledged there are some advantages.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 11, 2016, 09:46:21 pm
He said PA "spews" about not having advantages. We've all acknowledged there are some advantages.
Poor word choice.
I forgot to discuss yalls opponents for next year. Sand springs is really bad but I'm not sure about the others. Evangel will be a pretty good game I assume. Only lost a couple this year.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 11, 2016, 09:58:31 pm
Poor word choice.
I forgot to discuss yalls opponents for next year. Sand springs is really bad but I'm not sure about the others. Evangel will be a pretty good game I assume. Only lost a couple this year.
Evangel is a powerhouse every year. They will be a tough game.
Sand Springs was 7-5 this year. I have no idea how good they will be next year.
Parkway (Bossier City, LA) usually has a very good team. I think that will be a good game.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 11, 2016, 09:58:31 pm
Poor word choice.
I forgot to discuss yalls opponents for next year. Sand springs is really bad but I'm not sure about the others. Evangel will be a pretty good game I assume. Only lost a couple this year.
Sand springs is really bad? How do you know? They either won a state championship last year or played in the championship game. 7-5 this year. And evangel has a history as a premier team.
For some, it's just tough to post without an agenda I guess.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 11, 2016, 10:49:15 pm
Sand springs is really bad? How do you know? They either won a state championship last year or played in the championship game. 7-5 this year. And evangel has a history as a premier team.
For some, it's just tough to post without an agenda I guess.
You should've seen my analysis of the last two years of your non conference schedule. I was being generous this time.
Thanks Dad, you know me, always prodding, are yall really moving up to 6A? Because I don't think Wynne, will ever get 6A numbers.
Quote from: FD4 on December 12, 2016, 08:22:18 am
Thanks Dad, you know me, always prodding, are yall really moving up to 6A? Because I don't think Wynne, will ever get 6A numbers.
There has been lots of talk about PA moving up, but nothing official. If they do, it will probably be a couple of years before it happens.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 03:51:08 am
You should've seen my analysis of the last two years of your non conference schedule. I was being generous this time.
Yea, and that Highland Park team you denigrated last year is in the Texas 6A II championship game this year! They improved a lot in one year!
Quote from: PA Dad on December 09, 2016, 06:15:55 pm
We're playing them next year.
This will be a great game! I will have to find a way to watch this one. Where is it being played?
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 12, 2016, 10:14:26 am
This will be a great game! I will have to find a way to watch this one. Where is it being played?
Shreveport. I assume PA will live stream it.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 10:18:48 am
Shreveport. I assume PA will live stream it.
I drove down in 2009 to watch Shiloh play... It was ugly, we had a mostly sophomore team. But won the next year in Springdale by the skin of our teeth...
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 09:59:56 am
Yea, and that Highland Park team you denigrated last year is in the Texas 6A II championship game this year! They improved a lot in one year!
They did. We both know last year was a down year for them. Winning state this year doesn't show they were good last year? I don't think so anyway.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 09:59:56 am
Yea, and that Highland Park team you denigrated last year is in the Texas 6A II championship game this year! They improved a lot in one year!
Highland Park did have a great season and made the title game, but they had to move down a class this year. They are playing in the 5AD1 title game vs Temple. Last year they were 6A, but moved down with the reclassification. The 6A title games are D1, The Woodlands vs Lake Travis and D2, Desoto vs Steele.
Big difference between TX 5A and 6A.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 11:01:54 am
They did. We both know last year was a down year for them. Winning state this year doesn't show they were good last year? I don't think so anyway.
If PA beat the Giants, MDX would tell you how overrated Eli Manning is.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 12, 2016, 01:38:46 pm
If PA beat the Giants, MDX would tell you how overrated Eli Manning is.
Terrible team and player to pick. He does have a couple of super bowls though. Kelley does a good job with the schedule. Playing Evangel next year is smart. They get blown out in the early games then run through the rest of their schedule.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 01:59:26 pm
Terrible team and player to pick. He does have a couple of super bowls though. Kelley does a good job with the schedule. Playing Evangel next year is smart. They get blown out in the early games then run through the rest of their schedule.
At the Evangel stadium they have large banners hanging of all their NFL players... Then the classrooms around the school are in doublewides...
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 01:59:26 pm
Terrible team and player to pick. He does have a couple of super bowls though. Kelley does a good job with the schedule. Playing Evangel next year is smart. They get blown out in the early games then run through the rest of their schedule.
That's right. PA only plays out of conference teams that appear to be good, but actually aren't. Everyone knew Highland Park's 16 year home winning streak was going to be broken the first game of 15, PA was just lucky to be the ones that happened to be on the schedule that night.
But you can't say the Giants are terrible until PA schedules them, that's what makes them bad.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 12, 2016, 02:20:37 pm
That's right. PA only plays out of conference teams that appear to be good, but actually aren't. Everyone knew Highland Park's 16 year home winning streak was going to be broken the first game of 15, PA was just lucky to be the ones that happened to be on the schedule that night.
But you can't say the Giants are terrible until PA schedules them, that's what makes them bad.
Even HP knew they were going to lose at home that night! That's why their coach tried to cancel the game lol. You can argue it all you want, but HP was not the typical HP last year. However, when they came and beat y'all two years ago, they may have been pretty good. This is why people get frustrated with PA fans....even when something is extremely obvious, they can't admit it! HP was not very good last year...
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 02:57:33 pm
Even HP knew they were going to lose at home that night! That's why their coach tried to cancel the game lol. You can argue it all you want, but HP was not the typical HP last year. However, when they came and beat y'all two years ago, they may have been pretty good. This is why people get frustrated with PA fans....even when something is extremely obvious, they can't admit it! HP was not very good last year...
I don't think it really matters now, does it? ::)
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 09:59:56 am
Yea, and that Highland Park team you denigrated last year is in the Texas 6A II championship game this year! They improved a lot in one year!
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 03:11:39 pm
I don't think it really matters now, does it? ::)
It certainly does not.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 09:59:56 am
Yea, and that Highland Park team you denigrated last year is in the Texas 6A II championship game this year! They improved a lot in one year!
Actually in 5A -D1 final against Temple
12:00 Saturday at Jerry World
Meanwhile back in cottonpatch country, Wynne is doing its best to make it back to the Rock for yet another shot at PA hopefully. CH seems to think we will be better next year than this. Heck, I thought you couldn't do any better than what we did. Time will tell though.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 02:57:33 pm
Even HP knew they were going to lose at home that night! That's why their coach tried to cancel the game lol. You can argue it all you want, but HP was not the typical HP last year. However, when they came and beat y'all two years ago, they may have been pretty good. This is why people get frustrated with PA fans....even when something is extremely obvious, they can't admit it! HP was not very good last year...
I forget that if you lose to PA by definition you aren't very good. HP went 9-1 in the regular season last year in the 6A of Texas. PA held them 18 points below their next fewest points. So they did kind of suck.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 12, 2016, 05:31:11 pm
I forget that if you lose to PA by definition you aren't very good. HP went 9-1 in the regular season last year in the 6A of Texas. PA held them 18 points below their next fewest points. So they did kind of suck.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to boast a little more to everyone, have at it. It's not like the perception can get worse for y'all.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 05:49:59 pm
Whatever you need to tell yourself to boast a little more to everyone, have at it. It's not like the perception can get worse for y'all.
Not gonna get in the middle of this but I have to say that this year the PA posters were not nearly as boastful as a couple other schools. They talked and bragged right up until they got their big plate of crow. And
I never thought I'd see KK not try and score for an entire qtr , but he did show mercy on the 4th qtr of championship game. I knocked him last year but I will recognize him not throwing and scoring when he obviously could have.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 05:49:59 pm
Whatever you need to tell yourself to boast a little more to everyone, have at it. It's not like the perception can get worse for y'all.
It's just that your act, which is all that it is, gets old. I know my admission of this makes you happy.
Quote from: the voice on December 12, 2016, 07:54:35 pm
Not gonna get in the middle of this but I have to say that this year the PA posters were not nearly as boastful as a couple other schools. They talked and bragged right up until they got their big plate of crow. And
I never thought I'd see KK not try and score for an entire qtr , but he did show mercy on the 4th qtr of championship game. I knocked him last year but I will recognize him not throwing and scoring when he obviously could have.
Thanks voice. I think Kelley was truly stung by the criticism last year. I was also glad to see him call off the dogs this year. In my view a 7 point win is as good as a 30 point win. You're the champion either way. That's all that matters.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 12, 2016, 08:01:52 pm
It's just that your act, which is all that it is, gets old. I know my admission of this makes you happy.
My thoughts about private schools and athletics is not an act. You know that though.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 08:23:04 pm
My thoughts about private schools and athletics is not an act. You know that though.
Your posts about PA's schedule is though. You know that.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 03:26:33 pm
It certainly does not.
I have to tell a story that has nothing to do with the thread. My daughter is at SMU so we bought season tickets to SMU games. (That was just an excuse to go see her). There was a very nice, friendly couple who sat next to us. I don't remember how we started talking about high school football but we did. The lady said that her grandson played for Highland Park and that they never lose. I laughed and politely said I know of one game they lost because I saw them lose to PA. She also laughed and said she would never forget that game because she had never seen any team play like PA.
So, MDX, you may not like us, but we do make an impression.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 12, 2016, 08:33:10 pm
Your posts about PA's schedule is though. You know that.
East was good. I'm pretty honest about their schedule actually. You're just in denial.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 08:53:54 pm
East was good. I'm pretty honest about their schedule actually. You're just in denial.
HP has won 100 of 101 home games. But I'm in denial thinking that was a good team.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 08:53:54 pm
East was good. I'm pretty honest about their schedule actually. You're just in denial.
Well, PA did play Batesville and Wynne this year. That certainly downgrades their strength of schedule!
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 12, 2016, 08:57:16 pm
HP has won 100 of 101 home games. But I'm in denial thinking that was a good team.
Your victory over them doesn't really have anything to do with the previous 15-16 years. You beat them last year. The year they weren't very good. Plus, Texas football playoffs are a little different in how they host playoff games. But I won't bore you with facts. HP was an elite team last year who should have been ranked top in Texas and top 20 in the country.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 08:59:58 pm
Well, PA did play Batesville and Wynne this year. That certainly downgrades their strength of schedule!
Batesville has seen better years, that's for sure.
I have no clue why people dislike PA still. Can y'all tell me? It must be jealousy. It can't be because of how humble their fans continue to be even though they have 4-6 d-1 players per team, outrageous advantages, and act like they're just riding this wave of success because high school football is cyclical. Lol. You guys are really too much sometimes.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 09:05:57 pm
Your victory over them doesn't really have anything to do with the previous 15-16 years. You beat them last year. The year they weren't very good. Plus, Texas football playoffs are a little different in how they host playoff games. But I won't bore you with facts. HP was an elite team last year who should have been ranked top in Texas and top 20 in the country.
Batesville has seen better years, that's for sure.
I have no clue why people dislike PA still. Can y'all tell me? It must be jealousy. It can't be because of how humble their fans continue to be even though they have 4-6 d-1 players per team, outrageous advantages, and act like they're just riding this wave of success because high school football is cyclical. Lol. You guys are really too much sometimes.
Do you really think I crow about PA's success?
That reference to "downgrading the strength of schedule " was tongue in cheek based on your insistence that PA's OOC schedule is weak. Please recognize the sarcasm and don't confuse it with arrogance.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 09:05:57 pm
Your victory over them doesn't really have anything to do with the previous 15-16 years. You beat them last year. The year they weren't very good. Plus, Texas football playoffs are a little different in how they host playoff games. But I won't bore you with facts. HP was an elite team last year who should have been ranked top in Texas and top 20 in the country.
Batesville has seen better years, that's for sure.
I have no clue why people dislike PA still. Can y'all tell me? It must be jealousy. It can't be because of how humble their fans continue to be even though they have 4-6 d-1 players per team, outrageous advantages, and act like they're just riding this wave of success because high school football is cyclical. Lol. You guys are really too much sometimes.
You know more about PA than most parents at the school. It appears you have a fixation. But just believe that a team that went 10-1 against 6A Texas schools isn't good.
I'm not going to change your mind, and I don't care how you feel. So I'm done. One last advice, the next time you play at PA don't try and go Kool Aid Man through a brick wall.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 09:13:00 pm
Do you really think I crow about PA's success?
That reference to "downgrading the strength of schedule " was tongue in cheek based on your insistence that PA's OOC schedule is weak. Please recognize the sarcasm and don't confuse it with arrogance.
I got the sarcasm. But it's crazy to me that PA has to build up their non conference opponents to feel more successful. Not necessarily talking about you, but others on here.
back to the topic at hand. I've requested documents from AAA about PA. I'll request on the other privates after the holiday. I will also post the numbers when I get them in.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 12, 2016, 09:22:20 pm
You know more about PA than most parents at the school. It appears you have a fixation. But just believe that a team that went 10-1 against 6A Texas schools isn't good.
I'm not going to change your mind, and I don't care how you feel. So I'm done. One last advice, the next time you play at PA don't try and go Kool Aid Man through a brick wall.
I'm not sure who you are, but continuing to make fun of a young man who could have been severely injured speaks volumes of your character. Keep up the good work, kid.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 09:05:57 pm
Your victory over them doesn't really have anything to do with the previous 15-16 years. You beat them last year. The year they weren't very good. Plus, Texas football playoffs are a little different in how they host playoff games. But I won't bore you with facts. HP was an elite team last year who should have been ranked top in Texas and top 20 in the country.
Batesville has seen better years, that's for sure.
I have no clue why people dislike PA still. Can y'all tell me? It must be jealousy. It can't be because of how humble their fans continue to be even though they have 4-6 d-1 players per team, outrageous advantages, and act like they're just riding this wave of success because high school football is cyclical. Lol. You guys are really too much sometimes.
It's only a theory, but here's my thoughts on why MDXPHD has taken his trolling, indefensible and ridiculous anti-PA posts to a new level, after promising he was "done" posting until next fall. He has seen the softening of the rhetoric between posters from different schools. He has seen evidence of mutual respect being shown by rival schools. He fears that maybe everyone will take a step back and try to find out the facts before hating an entire community of parents, faculty and kids. Heck, you can see evidence it''s actually happening. And he just can't stand it, especially if it suggests any softening of attitudes towards PA. So,rather than abide by his "last post of the year" promises, he had to weigh in. Stir that hate back up. Provoke PA fans.
It's petty and sad, but it won't affect me. I am going to stick with showing respect for other schools, like Wynne, Batesville, Warren and others. In other words, I am not going to let one really, really bad apple spoil the whole bunch.
So troll on. Jesus would be proud.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 12, 2016, 09:26:13 pm
It's only a theory, but here's my thoughts on why MDXPHD has taken his trolling, indefensible and ridiculous anti-PA posts to a new level, after promising he was "done" posting until next fall. He has seen the softening of the rhetoric between posters from different schools. He has seen evidence of mutual respect being shown by rival schools. He fears that maybe everyone will take a step back and try to find out the facts before hating an entire community of parents, faculty and kids. Heck, you can see evidence it''s actually happening. And he just can't stand it, especially if it suggests any softening of attitudes towards PA. So,rather than abide by his "last post of the year" promises, he had to weigh in. Stir that hate back up. Provoke PA fans.
It's petty and sad, but it won't affect me. I am going to stick with showing respect for other schools, like Wynne, Batesville, Warren and others. In other words, I am not going to let one really, really bad apple spoil the whole bunch.
So troll on. Jesus would be proud.
First, you rarely show respect toward other schools. Second, trolling is easy to do, especially with arrogant PA fans. It doesn't take much to get them on the defense because they truly know, deep down, they're only successful because they have an immense amount of advtanges over the schools they play. Third, I'm positive you're not the one who speaks for Jesus.
Man, just a few posts and I have all the PA fans going. Best fishing hole I've been to in quite some time.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 09:23:04 pm
I got the sarcasm. But it's crazy to me that PA has to build up their non conference opponents to feel more successful. Not necessarily talking about you, but others on here.
back to the topic at hand. I've requested documents from AAA about PA. I'll request on the other privates after the holiday. I will also post the numbers when I get them in.
You know I love to talk facts. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
And I think PA posters get aggravated with you for suggesting that PA plays a soft OOC schedule. We think, rightly or wrongly, that it is probably the toughest in 5A year after year.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 09:30:48 pm
You know I love to talk facts. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
And I think PA posters get aggravated with you for suggesting that PA plays a soft OOC schedule. We think, rightly or wrongly, that it is probably the toughest in 5A year after year.
Y'all do defend your position, which is always a good thing. Message boards were created for people to voice their opinions, thankfully. I don't necessarily think it's the weakest schedule by the way. I just don't see the point in having to tell everyone how good the opponents are in order to feel better about the wins.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 09:30:00 pm
First, you rarely show respect toward other schools. Second, trolling is easy to do, especially with arrogant PA fans. It doesn't take much to get them on the defense because they truly know, deep down, they're only successful because they have an immense amount of advtanges over the schools they play. Third, I'm positive you're not the one who speaks for Jesus.
It's curious to me that you rarely talk about your school. If what has been posted on this board about Batesville's spending on athletics is correct, I bet that Batesville spends much more on athletics than PA does. And Batesville has many more players on its team every year than PA does. It sounds to me like Batesville has the advantage over PA.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 09:35:21 pm
Y'all do defend your position, which is always a good thing. Message boards were created for people to voice their opinions, thankfully. I don't necessarily think it's the weakest schedule by the way. I just don't see the point in having to tell everyone how good the opponents are in order to feel better about the wins.
My memory is that no one said anything about how good HP was until you started denigrating them.
But, I will admit you hooked me with that bait!
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 09:30:00 pm
First, you rarely show respect toward other schools. Second, trolling is easy to do, especially with arrogant PA fans. It doesn't take much to get them on the defense because they truly know, deep down, they're only successful because they have an immense amount of advtanges over the schools they play. Third, I'm positive you're not the one who speaks for Jesus.
I think you are the only one who finds a way to take reasonable posters and turn their comments into arrogance. I am sorry you have all this anger. I am sorry that you tarnish the image of the fans of a fantastic football program and a wonderful town like Batesville. I am sorry your hate narrative is crumbling. I am sorry no one is here defending your agenda or the positions you take to try to further it. I hope you enjoy your island. It looks like no one else wants to be there with you. Your new Delta Tau pledge name is Gilligan.
Please honor your pledge and go away until next year, Gilligan.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 09:37:09 pm
It's curious to me that you rarely talk about your school. If what has been posted on this board about Batesville's spending on athletics is correct, I bet that Batesville spends much more on athletics than PA does. And Batesville has many more players on its team every year than PA does. It sounds to me like Batesville has the advantage over PA.
I don't think spending and numbers are the main advantages. Batesville is very fortunate to have a great community willing to give and the town is very involved in sports, especially football. Batesville doesn't have great athletes though. They've had just a couple D-1 players out there in the last 10-15 years. Maybe 20 years. They win because of coaching and work ethic, which is something PA knows about. When you mix that with being extremely selective and having several players who are clearly Much better athletes than the rest, you get what PA does. Batesbille certainly doesn't have an advantage over PA.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 09:37:09 pm
It's curious to me that you rarely talk about your school. If what has been posted on this board about Batesville's spending on athletics is correct, I bet that Batesville spends much more on athletics than PA does. And Batesville has many more players on its team every year than PA does. It sounds to me like Batesville has the advantage over PA.
Don't bite this bait Dad. He doesn't speak for the good folks of Batesville. He speaks for the bad apples. The ones all programs have.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 12, 2016, 09:43:40 pm
I think you are the only one who finds a way to take reasonable posters and turn their comments into arrogance. I am sorry you have all this anger. I am sorry that you tarnish the image of the fans of a fantastic football program and a wonderful town like Batesville. I am sorry your hate narrative is crumbling. I am sorry no one is here defending your agenda or the positions you take to try to further it. I hope you enjoy your island. It looks like no one else wants to be there with you. Your new Delta Tau pledge name is Gilligan.
Please honor your pledge and go away until next year, Gilligan.
Na, I'm good. Thanks for looking out though.
Tell me, do you treat LRCA with respect? It's really not my fault you keep biting on every lure I throw out. I wouldn't cast as much if you and red devil stopped taking it.
Yellowcake, PA dad has at least admitted that this isn't just a problem with PA and that y'all have ridiculous advantages. This is something that is garnered national attention because privates are losing their chance to play in the public leagues in several states. Why are you so stubborn that you won't admit that?
My agenda is certainly not focused on PA. Although it seems that way because this is a football thread. It is focused on all sports. Private vs public in general. There needs to be a new system. Any reasonable person can see that. A success advancement system should be implemented. Eventually, if something isn't done, PA and Shiloh will be playing for the state championship in their own league every year.
MDX, there is a mutual respect between PA and Batesville posters. I challenge you to find a single post from a PA poster critical of Batesville. I think that is because we have a genuine respect for the Batesville program and Coach King.
And, you can prove me wrong, but I don't recall any other Batesville poster being critical of PA like you are.
Why are you the outlier?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 09:47:06 pm
Na, I'm good. Thanks for looking out though.
Tell me, do you treat LRCA with respect? It's really not my fault you keep biting on every lure I throw out. I wouldn't cast as much if you and red devil stopped taking it.
I have lots of good friends, close friends, with kids who go there. I know their kids. They are a rival, and I love beating them. And my friends know it. They want to beat us just as bad. But I sure don't let that morph into hate rhetoric about the school, the parents or the kids. Same with Sylvan Hills. Withrow is a good friend, but I want to beat them. He knows that. I sure don't poor mouth the school or the kids.
The world isn't as you perceive it. The sooner you understand that is a reality, the sooner you will have more meaningful relationships with people. You know, maybe get off your island, Gilligan.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 09:53:24 pm
MDX, there is a mutual respect between PA and Batesville posters. I challenge you to find a single post from a PA poster critical of Batesville. I think that is because we have a genuine respect for the Batesville program and Coach King.
And, you can prove me wrong, but I don't recall any other Batesville poster being critical of PA like you are.
Why are you the outlier?
Oh I have no doubt there is mutual respect. I respect the football team at PA. Respect has nothing to do with what needs to change though.
Because I'm passionate about the private vs public topic, not only in Arkansas, but nationwide. It's impacting all sports across the country. Again, it's not strictly about PA and Footnall, but y'all are the main ones who want to discuss it. Trust me, it's way worse in girls soccer. Harrison is the only public 5A school who has even won the championship I think.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 09:50:38 pm
My agenda is certainly not focused on PA. Although it seems that way because this is a football thread. It is focused on all sports. Private vs public in general. There needs to be a new system. Any reasonable person can see that. A success advancement system should be implemented. Eventually, if something isn't done, PA and Shiloh will be playing for the state championship in their own league every year.
You know that I agree with you regarding a performance based system for classification. But that would apply to both public and private schools.
That has nothing to do with your assertions that "rumors" about PA recruiting have merit. Obviously, rumors do not have merit -that's why they are rumors. So, you're criticism has not been general - it has been directly aimed at PA.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 12, 2016, 09:54:51 pm
I have lots of good friends, close friends, with kids who go there. I know their kids. They are a rival, and I love beating them. And my friends know it. They want to beat us just as bad. But I sure don't let that morph into hate rhetoric about the school, the parents or the kids. Same with Sylvan Hills. Withrow is a good friend, but I want to beat them. He knows that. I sure don't poor mouth the school or the kids.
The world isn't as you perceive it. The sooner you understand that is a reality, the sooner you will have more meaningful relationships with people. You know, maybe get off your island, Gilligan.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 25, 2015, 11:39:21 pm
I am sorry LRCA rejected the offer to play the game at WMS. I understand the mommies and daddies doing all they can to try to give their little boys a competitive advantage. I don't think it will be enough, though.
Be happy it is going to be pouring rain. It will hide the tears more easily.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 23, 2015, 11:31:13 pm
LRCA is limiting the number of tickets to the game.
whatever it takes to try to gain an advantage. I hope we curb stomp them.
Other than calling PA arrogant and talking about the advantages, I'm not sure what I've done that is considered to be "hatred." I have never bad mouthed the kids at PA. I don't think so anyway.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 09:50:38 pm
My agenda is certainly not focused on PA. Although it seems that way because this is a football thread. It is focused on all sports. Private vs public in general. There needs to be a new system. Any reasonable person can see that. A success advancement system should be implemented. Eventually, if something isn't done, PA and Shiloh will be playing for the state championship in their own league every year.
Did I ever say there weren't advantages? I don't think so. In fact, I think everyone sees that, which is why they bump them up in classification. All private schools.
you are certainly free to express your opinions, Gilligan, but with each expression of opinion fueled by hate instead of facts, your credibility swirls faster and faster down the toilet.
You have a standing invitation to come visit PA at a football game next year. All are welcome. Maybe come see people as they are, not what you think they are.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 09:59:16 pm
You know that I agree with regarding a performance based system for classification. But that would apply to both public and private schools.
That has nothing to do with your assertions that "rumors" about PA recruiting have merit. Obviously, rumors do not have merit -that's why they are rumors. So, you're criticism has not been general - it has been directly aimed at PA.
What proof do you want exactly? Do you want one of the players, who is going to be offered a D-1 scholarship, to out the school? And my apologies for limiting it to PA. Replace PA with any private school name and I would still defend my position about success advancement, advantages, and other topics I've discussed. Success advancement would apply to both sets of schools...which is why I think it's the most rational way to do it. Simple, easy, and logical. It would definitely change the landscape of Arkansas sports and it would certainly take are of most of the complaints throughout this thread.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 10:01:38 pm
Other than calling PA arrogant and talking about the advantages, I'm not sure what I've done that is considered to be "hatred." I have never bad mouthed the kids at PA. I don't think so anyway.
Institutions are defined by their members. For a school, it's their students, faculty and fans. So, when you paint with broad strokes, you cover a great deal of the canvas.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 12, 2016, 10:01:43 pm
Did I ever say there weren't advantages? I don't think so. In fact, I think everyone sees that, which is why they bump them up in classification. All private schools.
you are certainly free to express your opinions, Gilligan, but with each expression of opinion fueled by hate instead of facts, your credibility swirls faster and faster down the toilet.
You have a standing invitation to come visit PA at a football game next year. All are welcome. Maybe come see people as they are, not what you think they are.
I don't know how to say this any clearer...I do NOT hate private schools. I do NOT hate all of their fans. I have said it before...if my kids were in the LR area, they would attend one of the private schools. That has NOTHING to do with my stance on this. Bumping up a classification is pointless pretty much. Has it proved challenging for PA in football? It's an awful system...it's just placed there for the AAA to say "hey, we did something about it."
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 12, 2016, 10:04:41 pm
Institutions are defined by their members. For a school, it's their students, faculty and fans. So, when you paint with broad strokes, you cover a great deal of the canvas.
Oh, well, if you consider me calling some posters on fearless friday arrogant to be a broad stroke, I apologize for your interpretation. I think PA fans (and all other private schools), in general, and the school itself is great. That doesn't change my position on this. Why are you so scared to change the system? What is it that you are afraid of?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 10:04:33 pm
What proof do you want exactly? Do you want one of the players, who is going to be offered a D-1 scholarship, to out the school? And my apologies for limiting it to PA. Replace PA with any private school name and I would still defend my position about success advancement, advantages, and other topics I've discussed. Success advancement would apply to both sets of schools...which is why I think it's the most rational way to do it. Simple, easy, and logical. It would definitely change the landscape of Arkansas sports and it would certainly take are of most of the complaints throughout this thread.
You and I have no disagreement regarding performance classifications. I'd love to see it.
And, yes, if you're going to accuse PA of recruiting, I want proof. Isn't that the American way? Isn't that the basis of our justice system which you are studying? Do you think rumors are sufficient to prove your point? Do you think the rumors that Batesville pays officials is sufficient to prove that assertion?
I think posing the question provides the answer.
Sometimes I get carried away when posting, and I shouldn't. My apologies to those who have been offended or felt like I personally attacked them. That is not who I am. But I am passionate about this topic and will push to make a change, eventually. It has nothing to do with PA, CAC, or private schools fans, students, staff, etc. I am sure they are all wonderful people. Sometimes I need to heed the advice of Proverbs: "Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction" - Proverbs 10:14.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 6:23.
If I don't get the numbers in by the holidays, everybody have a safe and Merry Christmas.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 10:18:39 pm
As far as recruiting goes...of course people think privates recruit. It's what happens when extremely talented kids that start out in other districts end up playing for y'all in junior high. That's just how it works..And no, I can't name several players. I've just always heard stuff. Such as Green growing up in a different town, Loucks going to a different school when he was younger..etc. But no, I don't have any testimony from them. I apologize.
I also think it's ridiculous that you keep questioning my ability to understand how this profession works or my ability to actually perform. Listen, you don't have to question that. I assure you...I would not be writing a brief without any facts. I know you keep pointing it out, which is kind of a personal attack (or I see it as one), but I'm competent. Again, I may never be as good as you are in this profession...but that doesn't people that aren't as good as you are aren't capable.
I think you miss my point. It has nothing to do with your competence. I'm sorry that you're sensitive about that.
My point is simple - you don't make accusations without proof. That has nothing to do with competence. It has everything to do with fairness. Surely we can agree that it is not fair to make an accusation without proof, regardless of what your suspicions are.
12 teams made the state championship game this year. Of those, 1 was a private school and 11 are public. About 8% private representation. Is this the vast private school advantage?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 10:18:39 pm
Sometimes I get carried away when posting, and I shouldn't. My apologies to those who have been offended or felt like I personally attacked them. That is not who I am. But I am passionate about this topic and will push to make a change, eventually. It has nothing to do with PA, CAC, or private schools fans, students, staff, etc. I am sure they are all wonderful people. Sometimes I need to heed the advice of Proverbs: "Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction" - Proverbs 10:14.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 6:23.
If I don't get the numbers in by the holidays, everybody have a safe and Merry Christmas.
Debate is good, and heated debate is the best.
You defend your position well. In fact, I agree with your position regarding parity. I'd love to see a performance based classification system
And, PA posters will continue to defend PA. Surely you wouldn't expect otherwise.
As you surely know by now, I respect opinions based on facts. But, I deplore opinions with no factual basis.
This board would be very boring without differences of opinion. Keep the arguments coming!
Let me add this. I read the other boards and there's a lot of name calling on some of them. That rarely happens on this board, which is why I think this is the best of the boards. We have passionate disagreements on this board, but the debates are usually respectful, even if they are heated.
And I love the rabble rousers like MDX and FD4. They keep the conversation interesting.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 12, 2016, 10:18:39 pm
Sometimes I get carried away when posting, and I shouldn't. My apologies to those who have been offended or felt like I personally attacked them. That is not who I am. But I am passionate about this topic and will push to make a change, eventually. It has nothing to do with PA, CAC, or private schools fans, students, staff, etc. I am sure they are all wonderful people. Sometimes I need to heed the advice of Proverbs: "Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction" - Proverbs 10:14.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 6:23.
If I don't get the numbers in by the holidays, everybody have a safe and Merry Christmas.
All good my friend.
Finals can do this. Good luck and have a very merry Christmas.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 12, 2016, 10:57:10 pm
Let me add this. I read the other boards and there's a lot of name calling on some of them. That rarely happens on this board, which is why I think this is the best of the boards. We have passionate disagreements on this board, but the debates are usually respectful, even if they are heated.
And I love the rabble rousers like MDX and FD4. They keep the conversation interesting.
The 2A board can get as bad as the now-extinct politics board. We're talking Lord of the Flies type stuff.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on December 13, 2016, 08:06:47 am
The 2A board can get as bad as the now-extinct politics board. We're talking Lord of the Flies type stuff.
The 2A board is bad right now.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 13, 2016, 08:19:39 am
The 2A board is bad right now.
I wonder what the awful post that 7 people reported was... I would assume based on some reading it was racially driven....
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 12, 2016, 10:44:09 pm
12 teams made the state championship game this year. Of those, 1 was a private school and 11 are public. About 8% private representation. Is this the vast private school advantage?
Come now.... Do we really need to rehash this?
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 13, 2016, 09:19:08 am
I wonder what the awful post that 7 people reported was... I would assume based on some reading it was racially driven....
It was the most racist post I've ever seen on here.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 13, 2016, 10:49:55 am
It was the most racist post I've ever seen on here.
is it worse than the one that hasn't been deleted yet? "Boom!! I said it."
Quote from: Made on December 13, 2016, 01:04:16 pm
is it worse than the one that hasn't been deleted yet? "Boom!! I said it."
It was. It used a version of the "N" word.
Quote from: Made on December 13, 2016, 01:04:16 pm
is it worse than the one that hasn't been deleted yet? "Boom!! I said it."
which one is that?
He needs to change his handle to JON_SNOW, because he knows nothing.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on December 13, 2016, 06:23:04 pm
He needs to change his handle to JON_SNOW, because he knows nothing.
Amen. Some posters are just embarrassing.
These numbers are interesting. They are actually broken down by sport...but I only have the fall sports (and these are high school numbers).Financial aid isn't anything other than the award based off need...it has nothing to do with teachers at the school or any type of tuition discount. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.
Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
I have to know...is anybody shocked that 33 percent of their high school football team receives financial aid? 1/3 of their high school football team...
And financial aid isn't just capped at half of tuition...it can be quite a bit. The financial aid forms that I have show students were awarded anywhere from $14025.00 (more than actual tuition) to $1500.00. The majority of athletes who get financial aid are receiving over 6k per year.
I can't get the Spring sports until next May I don't think.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:10:25 am
These numbers are interesting. They are actually broken down by sport...but I only have the fall sports (and these are high school numbers).Financial aid isn't anything other than the award based off need...it has nothing to do with teachers at the school or any type of tuition discount. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.
Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
I have to know...is anybody shocked that 33 percent of their high school football team receives financial aid? 1/3 of their high school football team...
And financial aid isn't just capped at half of tuition...it can be quite a bit. The financial aid forms that I have show students were awarded anywhere from $14025.00 (more than actual tuition) to $1500.00. The majority of athletes who get financial aid are receiving over 6k per year.
I can't get the Spring sports until next May I don't think.
I am lost. Are you saying these are PA numbers? Because if you are, then I'd like to see your proof. My daughter plays golf. I can't wait to see where you got these numbers.
By the way, I am sorry we have arguably the best coach in the state in football. I am sorry Batesville doesn't get to win state championships every year. I am sorry the Morrilton, Wynne, Alma, LRCA and other 5 A fans, including the other good people from Batesville on here, would rather beat them than kick them out of the league. You are obsessed.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2016, 09:32:35 am
I am lost. Are you saying these are PA numbers? Because if you are, then I'd like to see your proof. My daughter plays golf. I can't wait to see where you got these numbers.
By the way, I am sorry we have arguably the best coach in the state in football. I am sorry Batesville doesn't get to win state championships every year. I am sorry the Morrilton, Wynne, Alma, LRCA and other 5 A fans, including the other good people from Batesville on here, would rather beat them than kick them out of the league. You are obsessed.
Yes, I am saying these are PA numbers.
Apologies accepted.
By the way, please give us the numbers of non sports playing students who get financial aid, since you seem to be reviewing verifiable tuition data that you are going to offer as proof. I mean I hope you are going to offer as proof, given your history of unverifiable and false accusations regarding a school you hate. Proof, please.
From afar, I'll offer these observations (all of these from the perspective and assumption that the numbers are accurate - no offense intended or implied MDXPHD):
- Based on looking at these numbers from fall sports alone, it would seem to be the case that football recipients are over represented. However, if approximately one third of the entire student body receives financial aid, then the football financial aid numbers would be more in line with the school as a whole.
- Is it possible some athletes are counted twice in these numbers? I'm thinking that some athletes can (and do) play more than one sport at the same time though it is rare for football players to play other sports during football season. (This is more common in the spring sports.)
- I don't believe that shocked is the word I would have chosen to describe my reaction, but it does (potentially) add objective data to the discussion. As an aside, I wonder if Pulaski Academy is representative of other privates schools - meaning do other private schools award as much financial aid.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:38:08 am
Yes, I am saying these are PA numbers.
Apologies accepted.
Until you prove it, I am contesting the validity of the numbers.
Show us your proof, Gilligan.
As a reminder to all - please keep the discussion civil and on point.
For the overwhelming amount of this thread, we've had some very good discussion and it is a credit to all who have participated that we've addressed this issue in such a way that the discussion has been allowed to continue.
Thanks.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 17, 2016, 09:38:33 am
From afar, I'll offer these observations (all of these from the perspective and assumption that the numbers are accurate - no offense intended or implied MDXPHD):
- Based on looking at these numbers from fall sports alone, it would seem to be the case that football recipients are over represented. However, if approximately one third of the entire student body receives financial aid, then the football financial aid numbers would be more in line with the school as a whole.
- Is it possible some athletes are counted twice in these numbers? I'm thinking that some athletes can (and do) play more than one sport at the same time though it is rare for football players to play other sports during football season. (This is more common in the spring sports.)
- I don't believe that shocked is the word I would have chosen to describe my reaction, but it does (potentially) add objective data to the discussion. As an aside, I wonder if Pulaski Academy is representative of other privates schools - meaning do other private schools award as much financial aid.
About 20 percent of PA students (and 20 percent of athletes also) receive financial aid 7-12 grade. So yeah, football is a little out of line.
It is possible..but each student has a unique ID number. I haven't gone through it in enough detail to look at those..but you're right, most football players won't be playing another Fall sport.
I'm not sure about other schools. I am requesting some of the other schools information this next week. LRCA and CAC most likely.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2016, 09:39:48 am
Until you prove it, I am contesting the validity of the numbers.
Show us your proof, Gilligan.
I just got them from the Financial Aid for Non-Public School athletes, Financial Aid Form Supplemental List, and the Student-Athlete Financial Aid Report forms. These are the forms all private schools are required to turn in to AAA. They come from the school, so hopefully they are accurate.
Great discussion (other than Yellowcake's sophomoric name calling and comments). I'm still not sure if this should justify removing private schools from participation in AAA activities, but it certainly may warent classification adjustments and possibly participation restrictions for "scholarship" participants. Good research, MX....
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 17, 2016, 09:38:33 am
From afar, I'll offer these observations (all of these from the perspective and assumption that the numbers are accurate - no offense intended or implied MDXPHD):
- Based on looking at these numbers from fall sports alone, it would seem to be the case that football recipients are over represented. However, if approximately one third of the entire student body receives financial aid, then the football financial aid numbers would be more in line with the school as a whole.
- Is it possible some athletes are counted twice in these numbers? I'm thinking that some athletes can (and do) play more than one sport at the same time though it is rare for football players to play other sports during football season. (This is more common in the spring sports.)
- I don't believe that shocked is the word I would have chosen to describe my reaction, but it does (potentially) add objective data to the discussion. As an aside, I wonder if Pulaski Academy is representative of other privates schools - meaning do other private schools award as much financial aid.
Looking a little closer at the numbers, none of the football players who receive financial aid play other fall sports.
A total of $148,248.00 in financial aid was awarded to football players in grades 10-12 this year. That's $7,412.40 per player on average.
Okay, okay, my turn to apologize. Sorry MP.
Quick question - does the financial aid come in the form of a student loan, or something like a grant?
My greatest concern in this thread is that MDXPHD continues to present information like a LAWYER, not like a scientist or engineer.
He is trying to prove an assumption; he is not trying to make an objective evaluation. For example: "33% of football players get financial aid" and "about 20% of PA students get financial aid". Is "about 20%" mean 20.3%? 19%? 24%? And how come you did not originally present this information (about total student aid)?
MDXPHD may be presenting seriously relevant information about PA sports; consequently, it is extremely important that it be presented in an objective manner.
Despite all these numbers,..............Wynne still fumbled 4 times in the first half.
By the way.............be aware that there are a whole host of rumors about Batesville's success in the 5A East. PA is not the only high school where people question their continued success in football.
If I recall correctly, I believe MDXPHD had to request this info from some entity (not sure if this was AAA or perhaps the State Education department) - but whatever it was (and again assuming the information is accurate and valid) it does provide definition on some of the differences between public and private schools.
Edit: from his post on December 12, MDXPHD noted he was requesting info from AAA.
The numbers offered by MDXPHD are indeed objective (again, assuming they are accurate and valid). I do agree the actual numbers of financial aid recipients in the student body would be better data.
From even before this thread was started, I have had an interest in looking at what I believe is a fundamentally flawed method of determining school classifications. The use of student head count as the only measurement to rank and determine a school's classification is inadequate (to say the least) and the continuing saga over the 6A and 7A issues offers substantial proof of that problem by itself.
Closer to my own experiences, I've been to a good number of 5A schools around the state over the years and there is no way to support the concept that claims the 5A school are fairly matched by using student head count. There has to be a better way. As complex as solving that problem would be on its own (trying to determine an accurate and valid measure on which to determine student classifications), the added elements introduced by private schools makes this consideration even harder (as if it needed to be....).
Just to be clear, I am not placing the blame for this on Pulaski Academy or any other private school - I want to find a better way to rank and classify schools in this state so that the largest number of schools can compete on an as level basis as possible.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on December 17, 2016, 12:37:58 pm
Quick question - does the financial aid come in the form of a student loan, or something like a grant?
I just know it says "amount of aid to be awarded by school."
Quote from: Grond on December 17, 2016, 12:50:13 pm
My greatest concern in this thread is that MDXPHD continues to present information like a LAWYER, not like a scientist or engineer.
He is trying to prove an assumption; he is not trying to make an objective evaluation. For example: "33% of football players get financial aid" and "about 20% of PA students get financial aid". Is "about 20%" mean 20.3%? 19%? 24%? And how come you did not originally present this information (about total student aid)?
MDXPHD may be presenting seriously relevant information about PA sports; consequently, it is extremely important that it be presented in an objective manner.
Despite all these numbers,..............Wynne still fumbled 4 times in the first half.
By the way.............be aware that there are a whole host of rumors about Batesville's success in the 5A East. PA is not the only high school where people question their continued success in football.
Grond, I did say "about 33 percent" in my first set of data. Additionally, I put the actual numbers. I said 20/61.
And here, I'll be more precise with the "about 20" percentage. 79/392 students participating in athletics receive financial aid. 133/648 total students receive financial aid.
I posted a quick set of numbers that I could easily calculate by looking at the forms. When somebody asked about the total student aid, I was quick to inform them. Tell me what "assumption" I am trying to prove by providing these numbers? And if looking at numbers provided by PA isn't an objective evaluation, I don't know how else to do it.
We have to stop being so narrow minded and considering this a PA and football problem, when in reality it involves all sports and all private/public schools. I'm hoping the information I get from other privates will indeed confirm this.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 17, 2016, 01:37:47 pm
If I recall correctly, I believe MDXPHD had to request this info from some entity (not sure if this was AAA or perhaps the State Education department) - but whatever it was (and again assuming the information is accurate and valid) it does provide definition on some of the differences between public and private schools.
The numbers offered by MDXPHD are indeed objective (again, assuming they are accurate and valid).
From even before this thread was started, I have had an interest in looking at what I believe is a fundamentally flawed method of determining school classifications. The use of student head count as the only measurement to rank and determine a school's classification is inadequate (to say the least) and the continuing saga over the 6A and 7A issues offers substantial proof of that problem by itself.
Closer to my own experiences, I've been to a good number of 5A schools around the state over the years and there is no way to support the concept that claims the 5A school are fairly matched by using student head count. There has to be a better way. As complex as solving that problem would be on its own (trying to determine an accurate and valid measure on which to determine student classifications), the added elements introduced by private schools makes this consideration even harder (as if it needed to be....).
Just to be clear, I am not placing the blame for this on Pulaski Academy or any other private school - I want to find a better way to rank and classify schools in this state so that the largest number of schools can compete on an as level basis as possible.
There certainly must be a better way to classify the schools. I think you have to look at many more factors than just a head count. A success advancement system wouldn't be perfect, but even something as simple as that would help with the problem I think.
I would also like to add to the discussion in an earlier portion of this thread.
PA has 0 students enrolled in an ESL program, 0 students enrolled in special education, and 0 students receiving free/reduced lunches.
Not that we all couldn't do the math, but just to save everyone the effort:
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 01:40:28 pm
And here, I'll be more precise with the "about 20" percentage. 79/392 students participating in athletics receive financial aid. 133/648 total students receive financial aid.
20.15% students participating in athletics receive financial aid
20.52% total students receiving financial aid
If these numbers are correct that would be a major blow to PA's reputation. This puts them at a major advantage over any other 5A school. Wynne, who I thought would have won the title, and Batesville before them are handcuffed by boundaries. The fact that the football team is loaded with kids receiving financial aid is disappointing. I am eating a little crow myself, I was sure this would be proven false. How can you honestly say it's all coaching or hard work when it is starting to appear like it's an all-star team. This is not whining, complaining or nit picking. It is proof of a terribly unbalanced playing field. I am not flip flopping on what I have been saying previously, these are numbers I can't believe are true. How can the AAA allow this to go on? If these numbers are fact then we need to admit what no Pioneer fan wants to admit, the Wynne Yellow jackets were the best high school football TEAM in 2016, man that hurt to say.
Here is a quick post to summarize since these numbers are spread out:
This is for Pulaski Academy - 2016 Fall sports. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.
Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
A total of $148,248.00 in financial aid was awarded to football players in grades 10-12 this year. That's $7,412.40 per player on average (based on the 20 who received it, of course).
79/392 students participating in athletics receive financial aid. 133/648 total students receive financial aid. (20.15% students participating in athletics receive financial aid, 20.52% total students receiving financial aid)
PA has 0 students enrolled in an ESL program, 0 students enrolled in special education, and 0 students receiving free/reduced lunches.
PA has had 30+ Division 1 football players since 2003. This is a football team with 60ish kids on it each year. They average 2-3 D-1 football players per year, and roughly 6-9 per team (grades 10-12). This includes walk-ons...but D-1 athletes nonetheless.
So, we have 33 percent of football players receiving roughly 150k (7400/player) in financial aid this year, while we only have 20 percent of the school receiving it.
These numbers are from the Financial Aid for Non-Public School athletes, Financial Aid Form Supplemental List, and the Student-Athlete Financial Aid Report forms. These are the forms all private schools are required to turn in to AAA. These numbers are from copies of the forms turned in by PA, to AAA. AAA is a government entity, so they are subject to FOI requests.
Correct me if I am wrong. I am sure that will not be an issue on this board either way.
Public schools get a certain amount from the state based on enrollment. So when a student attends a non-public school the public school gets less funding. When that non-public school Student also is a D-1 potential athlete and could possibly get boost home game total attendence by 200
So lets say 5 home games at 4 dollars = 4000 bucks.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 03, 2016, 07:04:45 pm
Regarding financial aid, every player is required to pay at least 50%, which is about $6,000 per year. More non-athletes receive financial aid by percentage than do athletes. That is a fact.
Well, the first part just isn't true. The second part is true, by .4ish percent...Except with the football percentage.
MPX, why do you think the system is broken? Is it because PA is on a run and Shiloh once had a run? I promise you, when Kelly leaves, things will change. Pine Bluff, Greenwood, Barton and a host of other public schools have had great runs in a variety of sports. I guess I just don't understand why you are so upset about private schools particating in sports with everyone else? Are the kids upset, or do they want to beat the private schools?
Your numbers show that the same percentage of non-athletes get aid as athletes.i think that's pretty solid evidence the school isn't dumping a disproportionate amount of money into football so it can win football games. There was a time when PA was a doormat. And until recently, Shiloh was reaping what it had sowed. Arkansas Baptist got drilled by everyone this year. LRCA has won one championship?
Admittedly, I get aggravated from time to time reading your posts, but I am not trying to be contentious here. It just seems to me that you are laser focused on running PA out of town because they are on a great run. You want to focus on financial aid and ignore the impact of Kelly and his great coaching staff, his unique philosophy and approach to the game, and the fact that he gets his kids to play disciplined and at an extremely high level. Those would be factors that I think an objective analysis would include.
Being objective, I think that if coach Kelly was at Wynne or Batesville or Morrilton or Sylavan Hills or anywhere else in the 5A, he would be dominating there. And then we wouldn't even be having these discussions.
Again, I am not arguing with you. Just giving you my thoughts.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2016, 03:17:54 pm
MPX, why do you think the system is broken? Is it because PA is on a run and Shiloh once had a run? I promise you, when Kelly leaves, things will change. Pine Bluff, Greenwood, Barton and a host of other public schools have had great runs in a variety of sports. I guess I just don't understand why you are so upset about private schools particating in sports with everyone else? Are the kids upset, or do they want to beat the private schools?
Your numbers show that the same percentage of non-athletes get aid as athletes.i think that's pretty solid evidence the school isn't dumping a disproportionate amount of money into football so it can win football games. There was a time when PA was a doormat. And until recently, Shiloh was reaping what it had sowed. Arkansas Baptist got drilled by everyone this year. LRCA has won one championship?
Admittedly, I get aggravated from time to time reading your posts, but I am not trying to be contentious here. It just seems to me that you are laser focused on running PA out of town because they are on a great run. You want to focus on financial aid and ignore the impact of Kelly and his great coaching staff, his unique philosophy and approach to the game, and the fact that he gets his kids to play disciplined and at an extremely high level. Those would be factors that I think an objective analysis would include.
Being objective, I think that if coach Kelly was at Wynne or Batesville or Morrilton or Sylavan Hills or anywhere else in the 5A, he would be dominating there. And then we wouldn't even be having these discussions.
Again, I am not arguing with you. Just giving you my thoughts.
Right now, this discussion is focused on PA because this is a 5A football thread and I follow 5A football. It's also extremely active with somewhat intelligent posters who can typically have a civil discussion regarding private v public schools.
However, I disagree about Kelley. I have said numerous times that he's a good coach and given him credit, but I don't think that would happen at another school. His system works because he has better athletes/students than other schools. That is my opinion...and we won't know until he goes to prove it. It seems like after winning several championships, garnishing a ton of media attention, and having one of/if not the most successful program since 2003, he would have moved up in the coaching world if it was all about the system. He knows exactly what he has at PA, and that's why his system works there.
They actually are dumping a disproportionate amount of money into football..relative to total financial aid and financial aid from other sports.
And I know it seems like I'm focused on PA...but I'm really not. I'm focused on all sports. For instance, Harrison is the only 5A public school to ever win a 5A girls soccer title. It's not just PA and it's not just football. I'm not sure what the kids want though, since I don't speak for them. I have said, and will say it again, banning privates from participating in post season play will just be the end result if we don't fix this now. I would enjoy seeing them continue to compete in the AAA playoffs, just at a classification appropriate. As seven said earlier, a head count is just not the best system to classify students. It's an awful system. But I do think privates have advantages that should be addressed by AAA, and a multiplier does nothing to remedy them.
.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 03:26:51 pm
Right now, this discussion is focused on PA because this is a 5A football thread and I follow 5A football. It's also extremely active with somewhat intelligent posters who can typically have a civil discussion regarding private v public schools.
However, I disagree about Kelley. I have said numerous times that he's a good coach and given him credit, but I don't think that would happen at another school. His system works because he has better athletes/students than other schools. That is my opinion...and we won't know until he goes to prove it. It seems like after winning several championships, garnishing a ton of media attention, and having one of/if not the most successful program since 2003, he would have moved up in the coaching world if it was all about the system. He knows exactly what he has at PA, and that's why his system works there.
They actually are dumping a disproportionate amount of money into football..relative to total financial aid and financial aid from other sports.
And I know it seems like I'm focused on PA...but I'm really not. I'm focused on all sports. For instance, Harrison is the only 5A public school to ever win a 5A girls soccer title. It's not just PA and it's not just football. I'm not sure what the kids want though, since I don't speak for them. I have said, and will say it again, banning privates from participating in post season play will just be the end result if we don't fix this now. I would enjoy seeing them continue to compete in the AAA playoffs, just at a classification appropriate. As seven said earlier, a head count is just not the best system to classify students. It's an awful system. But I do think privates have advantages that should be addressed by AAA, and a multiplier does nothing to remedy them.
If I missed it, I am sorry, but do you have a proposal on a more appropriate classification system other than student head count with a multiplier for private schools?
Oh no, not a complete proposal. I have suggested how the AAA could easily move to at least a success advancement system, which would be easy to implement and would be better than the current system. This would, of course, be applied to public and private. Another method AAA could use would be to bump the schools who give a certain percentage of financial aid to athletes up to the higher class. For instance, 15 percent or more in one sport placed them in 6A. 25 percent, 7A..I think you know what I mean. Those are just two, very minor changes that could replace the multiplier.
I give all the credit in the world to coach Kelley. But your rationale is wrong. If you put King or Hill at PA they would have the same success. The disproportionate amount of aid given to football players kinda proves, to some extent, the recruiting rumors. Would you say Coach K is the greatest basketball coach of all time based on the success of team USA in the Olympics? no, he's coaching an all-star team. He has done a great job at Duke but they rarely win it all. It's the exact same thing. Kelley would not have the same success at Wynne or Batesville because he would be limited to the players he has, not the players he picks.
I have wondered why PA's style of football has not been duplicated verbatim at other area high schools? it's a system very dependent on a specific type player. Most schools don't have the luxury of hand choosing talent.
Another point, that knife cuts both ways. Not only does PA gain a massive advantage by getting these players they take away talent from opposing teams. They get stronger while their opponents get weaker. Wynne had probably the best talent in the state (I have got to stop saying that) but they can't beat an all-star team.
I'm sorry put if these numbers are accurate then PA is not playing apples for apples.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2016, 03:38:30 pm
If I missed it, I am sorry, but do you have a proposal on a more appropriate classification system other than student head count with a multiplier for private schools?
That's what I've been thinking about, Yellowcake. However, it goes much further than just the private schools. Allow me to throw some free and reduced numbers out here about a few 5A schools: (source: https://adedata.arkansas.gov/statewide/Districts/FreeReducedPaidLunch.aspx?year=27&search=greene&pagesize=10)
Alma 50.76% of the student population is on the free or reduced lunch program
Batesville 53.75%
Beebe 50.6%
Clarksville 71.3%
Forrest City 99.96%
GCT 50.72%
Greenbrier 41.1%
Harrison 47.9%
LRSD 70.78%
Morrilton (SCCSD) 100%
NLRSD 72.59%
Paragould 70.17%
PCSSD 53.75%
Wynne 58.76%
Vilonia 46.3%
Folks, as this discussion goes, just be aware that some information that looks "unusual" starts to look rather average when you compare data from other schools.
[NOTE: I feel like I am 'violating a code' by copying stuff from other threads, but I feel the information is of interest here.]
The idea went something like this: Despite all the comments about Pulaski Academy [PA] having a talent/recruiting advantage, is there a way to measure it?
My thought was to compare the number of PA players listed at Arkansas colleges, to other State Championship teams. I simply looked at the listed roster for a particular college, and counted the number of players from the listed high schools. This was done in October, 2015, and thus reflects the 2014 State Football Champions.
The rosters I looked at were all D1 and D2 colleges. The list does not include D3 and NAIA (Arkansas has 1 each of these).
Here we go:
Bentonville (7A Champ) - 8 players
Pine Bluff (6A Champ) - 13 players
Pulaski Academy (5A Champ) - 7 players
Wynne (5A runner-up) - 5 players
Warren (4A Champ) - 6 players
Charleston (3A Champ) - 4 players
............................................. ............................
A few observations:
1) Note how the numbers seem to line up. Larger classifications have more players in college, smaller schools have less.
2) Pulaski Academy does NOT seem to have an unusual number of college players. (I was actually surprised by this.)
A few remarks:
A) This list does NOT include players from these schools that went to colleges outside of Arkansas. I am assuming that the distribution of players in Arkansas colleges is a fair representation of all players going to college.
B) Some colleges only list the hometown (such as OBU). I gathered info by looking at the individual player profiles presented by the college.
C) Some colleges (SAU) list walk-ons; some don't (Ark. State). I just went with the information provided.
D) Some colleges change their roster throughout the season (such as UAPB). You are certainly free to check current (12/10/15) rosters. Again, this analysis was conducted on roughly 10/5/15.
E) Of the 13 players from Pine Bluff, 7 were at UAPB (local college).
Actually the above post works against PA. You cannot make the argument "all great programs produce college players". The fact that PA has as many D1 players as the schools with 2, 3 and 4 times the number of students enrolled in school screams 'loaded deck'. To support the argument that PA plays it straight and wins with hard work and coaching only they'd have to have much much fewer college players than public schools.
I am having a hard time accepting the importance and validity of Gronds post when it doesn't include out of state players. I know it is difficult to get this info, but it is very important in order to prove the point. Wish we could get that!
I have no idea how legit the various numbers are that are being thrown around here, but assuming they are true, shouldn't PA get a little credit for providing an opportunity to good students who don't have enough money to go to PA without financial help? Yes, PA gives aid to athletes and non-athletes... both types have to achieve at a high level to stay in the school. If they don't have the ability to keep up academically, they end up at another school. Wouldn't it be discriminatory for good academic students who are financially challenged to be denied the opportunity for aid BECAUSE they are athletes? If PA did that, we'd have a whole different discussion going on here about fairness and equal opportunity.
And keep in mind, almost every player on the football team has been at PA since at least 6th grade... and the majority of those were here even earlier. Even if 33% of football players get aid to afford PA, that would have been decided well before those guys turned out to be good football players. Maybe that percentage is higher because a large percentage of boys join the football team compared to other sports. After all, it is one of few sports with no limits on roster size.
As I've said before, I really can't think of any impact players who showed up at PA around high school age... especially not locally. I know Hunter Henry's family moved back to Arkansas from Georgia before his 9th grade year. Jeremy Brady moved from Texas his junior year, I believe. Other than those guys, I just can't think of anyone coming in at that age and making a big impact on the field. I would challenge you to come up with 5 names of impact players in the last 10 years at PA who weren't at PA prior to high school.
My point is, no matter how the numbers are distributed, financial aid decisions were made based on need and merit, and prior to sports being a major factor.
Finally, regarding having better athletes, I just don't see it. More committed - maybe; more disciplined - probably, but bigger, faster, and stronger? Not typically. One of the most amazing things about the PA team is that most of the teams they beat week in and week out are bigger and faster than PA. We PA fans get to see that personally each week. I think that's why we know that it can't last forever. Whenever the coaching staff moves on (unless we get really fortunate with the next coach), we expect that our success will diminish at the same time.
Quote from: MB Hog on December 17, 2016, 07:57:25 pm
I have no idea how legit the various numbers are that are being thrown around here, but assuming they are true, shouldn't PA get a little credit for providing an opportunity to good students who don't have enough money to go to PA without financial help? Yes, PA gives aid to athletes and non-athletes... both types have to achieve at a high level to stay in the school. If they don't have the ability to keep up academically, they end up at another school. Wouldn't it be discriminatory for good academic students who are financially challenged to be denied the opportunity for aid BECAUSE they are athletes? If PA did that, we'd have a whole different discussion going on here about fairness and equal opportunity.
And keep in mind, almost every player on the football team has been at PA since at least 6th grade... and the majority of those were here even earlier. Even if 33% of football players get aid to afford PA, that would have been decided well before those guys turned out to be good football players. Maybe that percentage is higher because a large percentage of boys join the football team compared to other sports. After all, it is one of few sports with no limits on roster size.
As I've said before, I really can't think of any impact players who showed up at PA around high school age... especially not locally. I know Hunter Henry's family moved back to Arkansas from Georgia before his 9th grade year. Jeremy Brady moved from Texas his junior year, I believe. Other than those guys, I just can't think of anyone coming in at that age and making a big impact on the field. I would challenge you to come up with 5 names of impact players in the last 10 years at PA who weren't at PA prior to high school.
My point is, no matter how the numbers are distributed, financial aid decisions were made based on need and merit, and prior to sports being a major factor.
Finally, regarding having better athletes, I just don't see it. More committed - maybe; more disciplined - probably, but bigger, faster, and stronger? Not typically. One of the most amazing things about the PA team is that most of the teams they beat week in and week out are bigger and faster than PA. We PA fans get to see that personally each week. I think that's why we know that it can't last forever. Whenever the coaching staff moves on (unless we get really fortunate with the next coach), we expect that our success will diminish at the same time.
I was going to say that but you said it first and better than I could have.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:10:25 am
These numbers are interesting. They are actually broken down by sport...but I only have the fall sports (and these are high school numbers).Financial aid isn't anything other than the award based off need...it has nothing to do with teachers at the school or any type of tuition discount. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.
Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
I have to know...is anybody shocked that 33 percent of their high school football team receives financial aid? 1/3 of their high school football team...
And financial aid isn't just capped at half of tuition...it can be quite a bit. The financial aid forms that I have show students were awarded anywhere from $14025.00 (more than actual tuition) to $1500.00. The majority of athletes who get financial aid are receiving over 6k per year.
I can't get the Spring sports until next May I don't think.
I am surprised, but not shocked, that a third of the football team receives financial aid. Aid is determined by need, not athletic ability.
If your point is that private schools have an advantage, you're beating a dead horse. PA posters have admitted that.
If you're claiming that PA is cheating, you miss the point. The only way the AAA has the information you post is because PA reports it pursuant to AAA rules.
If anyone is really interested in looking at the way financial aid is given at PA, please visit http://www.pulaskiacademy.org/page/admission/affordability. It explains the process and the rules.
MDX' crusade is against private schools generally and PA specifically. We've discussed this issue at length, but we've ignored the disparity between public schools. Does MDX contend that Batesville and Paragould are equal in resources? If not, why is he not complaining about it?
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 08:04:27 pm
I was going to say that but you said it first and better than I could have.
Ha! Thanks, PA Dad. Not sure that's completely true - you are always well-written and good at making your point. ;)
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 10:46:03 am
A total of $148,248.00 in financial aid was awarded to football players in grades 10-12 this year. That's $7,412.40 per player on average.
And what is your point? Should PA refuse financial assistance to deserving students because they are athletes?
I think PA should be applauded for giving families without the financial resources for their kids to attend PA an opportunity. I'm really puzzled by the criticism.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 08:31:39 pm
And what is your point? Should PA refuse financial assistance to deserving students because they are athletes?
I think PA should be applauded for giving families without the financial resources for their kids to attend PA an opportunity. I'm really puzzled by the criticism.
Well, depending on the amount offered to other students in those grades that are not in the football program could speak volumes. I also am a little surprised in your reply to this as I have always looked at your discussions on this matter as being down the middle and fair. I also know you least discuss debate with facts being your way of attributing merit to a topic. If anyone couldn't see the point here when considering the inequality in scholarships to those not football related at a private school, then don't accuse others of being biased and driving an agenda.
I have a friend from college who has a child attend PA. Very intelligent but not involved in any athletics at all. Their discussion with me insinuated there was little to none financial assistance for those not involved with athletics. Now they did not seek assistance but made that comment based on conversations between Bruin parents. They do love the school and the academics.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 17, 2016, 03:52:38 pm
That's what I've been thinking about, Yellowcake. However, it goes much further than just the private schools. Allow me to throw some free and reduced numbers out here about a few 5A schools: (source: https://adedata.arkansas.gov/statewide/Districts/FreeReducedPaidLunch.aspx?year=27&search=greene&pagesize=10)
Alma 50.76% of the student population is on the free or reduced lunch program
Batesville 53.75%
Beebe 50.6%
Clarksville 71.3%
Forrest City 99.96%
GCT 50.72%
Greenbrier 41.1%
Harrison 47.9%
LRSD 70.78%
Morrilton (SCCSD) 100%
NLRSD 72.59%
Paragould 70.17%
PCSSD 53.75%
Wynne 58.76%
Vilonia 46.3%
This goes to my point that disparity is not really a private vs public debate. There is as much disparity between the elite public schools and the have not public schools as there is between public and private.
Maybe we should be more focused on the solution than the problem (and I think this is where Seven has tried to steer the discussion).
I've written several different responses to all that has been addressed so far, only to delete them all. I understand that PA fans can't see the problem. I will accept that. The elitist personality of PA fans is overwhelming to me. Even when I post numbers showing how disproportionate the financial aid is, we can somehow turn that around to how deserving PA is of praise for giving these kids a chance to excel. You don't have better athletes than other schools, but your small, 3A school has produced 30+ d-1 players in 13 years.
After seeing these numbers, if you really want an applause and to have the Gazette pick up a story about how great y'all are for giving kids an opportunity (although you deny kids regularly of opportunities, you know, if they aren't smart enough or something to get in your school), then so be it.
I'm done for the holidays, but I did want to share these numbers with all of you. Regardless of what the PA posters say, they are alarming. PA supporters can continue to be in denial, but it doesn't change how important this topic is. It will be pressed and pressed each year, and something will eventually change.
I will be back after the first of the year with the other school's numbers. I'm interested in seeing how the privates compare regarding scholarships. Hopefully, they will be as generous so we can praise them too.
Quote from: 86jacketstchamps on December 17, 2016, 08:43:41 pm
Well, depending on the amount offered to other students in those grades that are not in the football program could speak volumes. I also am a little surprised in your reply to this as I have always looked at your discussions on this matter as being down the middle and fair. I also know you least discuss debate with facts being your way of attributing merit to a topic. If anyone couldn't see the point here when considering the inequality in scholarships to those not football related at a private school, then don't accuse others of being biased and driving an agenda.
I have a friend from college who has a child attend PA. Very intelligent but not involved in any athletics at all. Their discussion with me insinuated there was little to none financial assistance for those not involved with athletics. Now they did not seek assistance but made that comment based on conversations between Bruin parents. They do love the school and the academics.
That's a fair question. But, if you look at MDX's numbers, they show that non-athletes receive financial assistance at a slightly higher percentage than athletes do.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 08:50:02 pm
I've written several different responses to all that has been addressed so far, only to delete them all. I understand that PA fans can't see the problem. I will accept that. The elitist personality of PA fans is overwhelming to me. Even when I post numbers showing how disproportionate the financial aid is, we can somehow turn that around to how deserving PA is of praise for giving these kids a chance to excel. You don't have better athletes than other schools, but your small, 3A school has produced 30+ d-1 players in 13 years.
After seeing these numbers, if you really want an applause and to have the Gazette pick up a story about how great y'all are for giving kids an opportunity (although you deny kids regularly of opportunities, you know, if they aren't smart enough or something to get in your school), then so be it.
I'm done for the holidays, but I did want to share these numbers with all of you. Regardless of what the PA posters say, they are alarming. PA supporters can continue to be in denial, but it doesn't change how important this topic is. It will be pressed and pressed each year, and something will eventually change.
I will be back after the first of the year with the other school's numbers. I'm interested in seeing how the privates compare regarding scholarships. Hopefully, they will be as generous so we can praise them too.
No matter how thin you pour a pancake, it always has two sides. And there's always two sides to an argument. If you can't see the other side, you're not being objective.
You are focused on an argument that PA supporters admit. But you just ignore the disparity which exists in public schools.
And, instead of focusing on the disparity, wouldn't the prudent course be to try to do something about it? What are you doing?
Quote from: MB Hog on December 17, 2016, 07:57:25 pm
I have no idea how legit the various numbers are that are being thrown around here, but assuming they are true, shouldn't PA get a little credit for providing an opportunity to good students who don't have enough money to go to PA without financial help? Yes, PA gives aid to athletes and non-athletes... both types have to achieve at a high level to stay in the school. If they don't have the ability to keep up academically, they end up at another school. Wouldn't it be discriminatory for good academic students who are financially challenged to be denied the opportunity for aid BECAUSE they are athletes? If PA did that, we'd have a whole different discussion going on here about fairness and equal opportunity.
And keep in mind, almost every player on the football team has been at PA since at least 6th grade... and the majority of those were here even earlier. Even if 33% of football players get aid to afford PA, that would have been decided well before those guys turned out to be good football players. Maybe that percentage is higher because a large percentage of boys join the football team compared to other sports. After all, it is one of few sports with no limits on roster size.
As I've said before, I really can't think of any impact players who showed up at PA around high school age... especially not locally. I know Hunter Henry's family moved back to Arkansas from Georgia before his 9th grade year. Jeremy Brady moved from Texas his junior year, I believe. Other than those guys, I just can't think of anyone coming in at that age and making a big impact on the field. I would challenge you to come up with 5 names of impact players in the last 10 years at PA who weren't at PA prior to high school.
My point is, no matter how the numbers are distributed, financial aid decisions were made based on need and merit, and prior to sports being a major factor.
Finally, regarding having better athletes, I just don't see it. More committed - maybe; more disciplined - probably, but bigger, faster, and stronger? Not typically. One of the most amazing things about the PA team is that most of the teams they beat week in and week out are bigger and faster than PA. We PA fans get to see that personally each week. I think that's why we know that it can't last forever. Whenever the coaching staff moves on (unless we get really fortunate with the next coach), we expect that our success will diminish at the same time.
Without doing any research, I can name one that transferred in just to play and that is Broderick Green. Not a lot to debate there, even had PA parents tell me that at the game the night they played us at Wynne.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 08:57:17 pm
No matter how thin you pour a pancake, it always has two sides. And there's always two sides to an argument. If you can't see the other side, you're not being objective.
You are focused on an argument that PA supporters admit. But you just ignore the disparity which exists in public schools.
And, instead of focusing on the disparity, wouldn't the prudent course be to try to do something about it? What are you doing?
I think I agree, which is why I am going to push for the ability to get kids from Forrest City, Earle, McCrory, Cross County and any other students that might want to come to Wynne! If they are great athletes, even better. Maybe we could even rise money for them to offset travel costs or any cost associated with attending a school not in the district they live. I'm hoping the AAA will be ok with that.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 08:57:17 pm
No matter how thin you pour a pancake, it always has two sides. And there's always two sides to an argument. If you can't see the other side, you're not being objective.
You are focused on an argument that PA supporters admit. But you just ignore the disparity which exists in public schools.
And, instead of focusing on the disparity, wouldn't the prudent course be to try to do something about it? What are you doing?
Fair enough.
I need to stop wasting time posting this stuff on the message boards and being more proactive. Completely agree.
Just a couple of thoughts - Those kids receiving financial aid happen to play football, if they sing in the choir they receive the same aid. PA does not offer free or reduced lunches so those numbers might not apply.
PA does have advantages, I believe the biggest being the coaching staff. They have been together for years and have developed an impressive machine. This will run it course in football in a couple of years. If it lines up with Kelly leaving it will be easy to say it is just him but it isn't just him.
PA will struggle in most all sports outside of football this year. Basketball will be a beat down.
Quote from: makessense on December 17, 2016, 09:09:55 pm
Just a couple of thoughts - Those kids receiving financial aid happen to play football, if they sing in the choir they receive the same aid. PA does not offer free or reduced lunches so those numbers might not apply.
PA does have advantages, I believe the biggest being the coaching staff. They have been together for years and have developed an impressive machine. This will run it course in football in a couple of years. If it lines up with Kelly leaving it will be easy to say it is just him but it isn't just him.
PA will struggle in most all sports outside of football this year. Basketball will be a beat down.
Guessing that it must just be that the football players need more financial assistance than other areas of the school. Makes sense to me. I say, it doesn't really matte as long as AAA allows it. As far as Kelly leaving or staying, don't fret, he will not be going anywhere. He has had some very good opportunities but is smart and knows where his success year in and year out is.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:09:40 pm
Fair enough.
I need to stop wasting time posting this stuff on the message boards and being more proactive. Completely agree.
While we have many disagreements, I've always admired your honesty.
And, I'll be glad to join you in lobbying the AAA or doing any else to resolve the disparities. I'm pretty much convinced that a performance based classification is best, although there are many details that would have to be worked out.
Quote from: 86jacketstchamps on December 17, 2016, 09:14:35 pm
Guessing that it must just be that the football players need more financial assistance than other areas of the school. Makes sense to me. I say, it doesn't really matte as long as AAA allows it. As far as Kelly leaving or staying, don't fret, he will not be going anywhere. He has had some very good opportunities but is smart and knows where his success year in and year out is.
I think you are right about Kelley. I get a little tickled with the posters who question why he has not moved on or up. Maybe he's like a pig in slop where he is. Why move on when you're happy where you are?
Quote from: 86jacketstchamps on December 17, 2016, 09:05:05 pm
I think I agree, which is why I am going to push for the ability to get kids from Forrest City, Earle, McCrory, Cross County and any other students that might want to come to Wynne! If they are great athletes, even better. Maybe we could even rise money for them to offset travel costs or any cost associated with attending a school not in the district they live. I'm hoping the AAA will be ok with that.
I love the sarcasm. +1
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 09:25:10 pm
I love the sarcasm. +1
I thought you would like that. LOL
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 09:14:55 pm
While we have many disagreements, I've always admired your honesty.
And, I'll be glad to join you in lobbying the AAA or doing any else to resolve the disparities. I'm pretty much convinced that a performance based classification is best, although there are many details that would have to be worked out.
Same goes for you. We disagree on many issues within this topic, but they are always good arguments. You fight and stand up for what you believe and what you should defend, which is great.
I think success advancement would be the quickest and easiest to impliment, and I think a lot of these complaints would fade quickly with that. I am going to gather information on the other states to see what their qualifications are to move a school up. I'll post that data as soon as I can. But like I said a few posts ago, I'll be a ghost until after the holidays. I hope you and your family have a merry Christmas.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 08:50:02 pm
I've written several different responses to all that has been addressed so far, only to delete them all. I understand that PA fans can't see the problem. I will accept that. The elitist personality of PA fans is overwhelming to me. Even when I post numbers showing how disproportionate the financial aid is, we can somehow turn that around to how deserving PA is of praise for giving these kids a chance to excel. You don't have better athletes than other schools, but your small, 3A school has produced 30+ d-1 players in 13 years.
After seeing these numbers, if you really want an applause and to have the Gazette pick up a story about how great y'all are for giving kids an opportunity (although you deny kids regularly of opportunities, you know, if they aren't smart enough or something to get in your school), then so be it.
I'm done for the holidays, but I did want to share these numbers with all of you. Regardless of what the PA posters say, they are alarming. PA supporters can continue to be in denial, but it doesn't change how important this topic is. It will be pressed and pressed each year, and something will eventually change.
I will be back after the first of the year with the other school's numbers. I'm interested in seeing how the privates compare regarding scholarships. Hopefully, they will be as generous so we can praise them too.
MDX, I suppose one of the reasons I sometimes take your posts personally is that you call PA fans, which includes me, elitists.
You know who I am. You can look at my record. I've always represented the underprivileged, the underdog, and the have nots. Do you really think I'm elitist?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:29:11 pm
Same goes for you. We disagree on many issues within this topic, but they are always good arguments. You fight and stand up for what you believe and what you should defend, which is great.
I think success advancement would be the quickest and easiest to impliment, and I think a lot of these complaints would fade quickly with that. I am going to gather information on the other states to see what their qualifications are to move a school up. I'll post that data as soon as I can. But like I said a few posts ago, I'll be a ghost until after the holidays. I hope you and your family have a merry Christmas.
And I wish the same for you and your family. Merry Christmas.
I do not. But I do consider several others I've met/had conversations with elitists. Not you though. I should have put a disclaimer in there.
I do not think PA dad is an elitist. I don't Group him with the general statements I have made about PA.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:34:25 pm
I do not. But I do consider several others I've met/had conversations with elitists. Not you though. I should have put a disclaimer in there.
I do not think PA dad is an elitist. I don't Group him with the general statements I have made about PA.
Thanks. I appreciate that.
I love high school football, and have had a lot of fun watching it over the years. Lots of teams, lots of classifications. It's been more fun just enjoying the sport, including PA football, without defending PA all the time. So, with all due respect, I am going to bow out. This board is kind of taking the fun out of it for me.
Glad I got to meet AirWarren, though.
Good luck to everyone next season, and have a very Merry Christmas.
Can we actually talk about the athletes this year that PA and Wynne had. Does anyone think that PA just had THAT many more athletes than their competition? I mean Hatcher is a great QB and Watkins was a stud, but the routes that the receivers run for PA are second to none in Arkansas. Incredible efficiency. Love watching their offense work. That's coaching.
I mean Hicks was probably the best athlete on the field that night.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2016, 10:51:05 pm
I love high school football, and have had a lot of fun watching it over the years. Lots of teams, lots of classifications. It's been more fun just enjoying the sport, including PA football, without defending PA all the time. So, with all due respect, I am going to bow out. This board is kind of taking the fun out of it for me.
Glad I got to meet AirWarren, though.
Good luck to everyone next season, and have a very Merry Christmas.
Yellowcake, I've been tempted several times to quit this board. And I may eventually decide to do so. But, don't let the naysayers run you off. You can be blunt, but that's not always a bad thing. And you bring a unique perspective to the board.
I still watch PA games because my wife and I have friends whose kids still play. That will continue for a couple of more years. And, I just love high school football.
As long as I'm on this board, I want as many points of view as possible. Please don't quit just because of the criticism of PA. That will always be present. Just ask the old timers like Maynard.
And regardless of what others say, I'm proud of the PA posters. For the most part they are humble but proud of PA. There's certainly nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: Almatrackster on December 17, 2016, 10:57:04 pm
Can we actually talk about the athletes this year that PA and Wynne had. Does anyone think that PA just had THAT many more athletes than their competition? I mean Hatcher is a great QB and Watkins was a stud, but the routes that the receivers run for PA are second to none in Arkansas. Incredible efficiency. Love watching their offense work. That's coaching.
I mean Hicks was probably the best athlete on the field that night.
Hicks was, without a doubt, the best athlete in the game. Great power, good speed, and good vision. He had over 200 yards against a really good defense. I held my breath every time he got the ball.
Hatcher may be a D-1 athlete, but it may be in wrestling. I'll be surprised if he gets a D-1 football offer.
Watkins is just a joy to watch. I loved FD4's description of him - it's like trying to catch the last chicken in the open range. But, he won't get a D-1 offer.
I thought Wynne's offensive line was a little better than PA's. They were certainly bigger and more athletic.
I give the edge to PA's defensive line. They executed their assignments with discipline and contained an explosive Wynne running game, although Wynne helped with the turnovers.
The big difference in the game was the Wynne secondary. They just couldn't defend the PA receivers. I was really surprised they played man to man. I thought the Wynne defense would take the approach Batesville took, which was to pressure the PA quarterback.
But, it's easy to second guess the coaches. I'm glad I didn't have to make those calls.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 17, 2016, 07:12:05 pm
I am having a hard time accepting the importance and validity of Gronds post when it doesn't include out of state players. I know it is difficult to get this info, but it is very important in order to prove the point. Wish we could get that!
You are correct. I would love to see a list of D1-FBS football players from the state of Arkansas, each year. This was a complaint of my original thread.
There are lists of "Top Arkansas Prospects", but I found these lists tend to
not follow where players ACTUALLY signed.
Another complexity to all this is the fact that colleges tend to recruit from winning teams. PA has a combination of success and notoriety the draws the attention of college scouts.
Be aware that there is another phenomena occurring with PA college football recruits: success in Kelly's system is not a guarantee of success at college level. Going to be very curious how many colleges take a serious look at PA football.
Quote from: Grond on December 17, 2016, 11:53:17 pm
You are correct. I would love to see a list of D1-FBS football players from the state of Arkansas, each year. This was a complaint of my original thread.
There are lists of "Top Arkansas Prospects", but I found these lists tend to not follow where players ACTUALLY signed.
Another complexity to all this is the fact that colleges tend to recruit from winning teams. PA has a combination of success and notoriety the draws the attention of college scouts.
Be aware that there is another phenomena occurring with PA college football recruits: success in Kelly's system is not a guarantee of success at college level. Going to be very curious how many colleges take a serious look at PA football.
You are correct. The only PA graduates that I can recall that had success in college are Hunter Henry, Fridi Knighten, and Jason King. And Hunter is the only one I know playing in the pros.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 18, 2016, 12:02:00 am
You are correct. The only PA graduates that I can recall that had success in college are Hunter Henry, Fridi Knighten, and Jason King. And Hunter is the only one I know playing in the pros.
Don't forget Spencer Keith, four year starter QB at Kent State. Jonathan Luigs, Rimington Award winner at Arkansas.
All,
I know we have somewhat wandered around, over and through several different aspects of this subject, but because we've somewhat touched on this aspect already I wanted to post this here as well. This was originally found and posted by Beeroe in another forum but this does provide a look at how another state (Indiana) handles this issue:
A system like this could mean any one school would be in a number of different classifications and conferences but the upside is the school would be in a situation where each team was playing at (or near) their talent level.
Food for thought.
In Team Sports, Schools shall be subject to reclassification every Two (2) years on a sportby-sport
basis dependent on the School's previous tournament series success.
a. Schools shall earn the assigned point values for the final level of the tournament series
they achieve as follows:
(1.) Sectional Championship - One (1) point
(2.) Regional Championship - Two (2) points
(3.) Semi State Championship - Three (3) points
(4.) State Championship - Four (4) points
b. Upon the conclusion of a Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle, Schools in
Classes below the largest enrollment Class in a specific sport achieving Six (6) points or
greater due to tournament series success shall move up to the next largest enrollment
classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle.
c. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Three (3) points or below in a specific sport
shall be placed in the classification dictated by their enrollment for the next reclassification
and realignment cycle.
d. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Four (4) or Five (5) points in a specific sport
shall remain in the same classification in that sport for the next Two(2) years.
e. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Six (6) points or greater in a specific sport shall
Rule 2 - Classification of Schools
19
move up to the next largest enrollment classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification
and realignment cycle if their previous classification was below the largest enrollment Class
in that sport.
I like it. It seems fair and fairly easy to administer.
I like the two year reclassifications. That would be much less volatile than a yearly reclassification.
I think there would be a great many reclassifications in the first 4-6 years. But, after that, I think things would stabilize and teams would be fairly evenly grouped.
Now how do we get this implemented?
Very interesting!! This would also help in so many schools with a dominant sport which leaves other sports, bereft of better athletes, less than competitive.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 18, 2016, 09:25:07 am
All,
I know we have somewhat wandered around, over and through several different aspects of this subject, but because we've somewhat touched on this aspect already I wanted to post this here as well. This was originally found and posted by Beeroe in another forum but this does provide a look at how another state (Indiana) handles this issue:
A system like this could mean any one school would be in a number of different classifications and conferences but the upside is the school would be in a situation where each team was playing at (or near) their talent level.
Food for thought.
In Team Sports, Schools shall be subject to reclassification every Two (2) years on a sportby-sport
basis dependent on the School's previous tournament series success.
a. Schools shall earn the assigned point values for the final level of the tournament series
they achieve as follows:
(1.) Sectional Championship - One (1) point
(2.) Regional Championship - Two (2) points
(3.) Semi State Championship - Three (3) points
(4.) State Championship - Four (4) points
b. Upon the conclusion of a Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle, Schools in
Classes below the largest enrollment Class in a specific sport achieving Six (6) points or
greater due to tournament series success shall move up to the next largest enrollment
classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification and realignment cycle.
c. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Three (3) points or below in a specific sport
shall be placed in the classification dictated by their enrollment for the next reclassification
and realignment cycle.
d. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Four (4) or Five (5) points in a specific sport
shall remain in the same classification in that sport for the next Two(2) years.
e. After participation in a larger enrollment classification for Two (2) years, a School achieving
a tournament series success point value of Six (6) points or greater in a specific sport shall
Rule 2 - Classification of Schools
19
move up to the next largest enrollment classification for the next Two (2) year reclassification
and realignment cycle if their previous classification was below the largest enrollment Class
in that sport.
I like a lot of this. I would tend to favor 8 to 10 points over 3 years, but I am being picky. ::)
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 02:31:27 pm
Here is a quick post to summarize since these numbers are spread out:
This is for Pulaski Academy - 2016 Fall sports. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.
Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
A total of $148,248.00 in financial aid was awarded to football players in grades 10-12 this year. That's $7,412.40 per player on average (based on the 20 who received it, of course).
79/392 students participating in athletics receive financial aid. 133/648 total students receive financial aid. (20.15% students participating in athletics receive financial aid, 20.52% total students receiving financial aid)
PA has 0 students enrolled in an ESL program, 0 students enrolled in special education, and 0 students receiving free/reduced lunches.
PA has had 30+ Division 1 football players since 2003. This is a football team with 60ish kids on it each year. They average 2-3 D-1 football players per year, and roughly 6-9 per team (grades 10-12). This includes walk-ons...but D-1 athletes nonetheless.
So, we have 33 percent of football players receiving roughly 150k (7400/player) in financial aid this year, while we only have 20 percent of the school receiving it.
These numbers are from the Financial Aid for Non-Public School athletes, Financial Aid Form Supplemental List, and the Student-Athlete Financial Aid Report forms. These are the forms all private schools are required to turn in to AAA. These numbers are from copies of the forms turned in by PA, to AAA. AAA is a government entity, so they are subject to FOI requests.
There's the socioeconomic factors I mentioned earlier. These numbers really shocked me.... I did not expect the number of football players receiving financial aid to be that high. I really expected them to have some kind of special education program. Oh Wait!!!...... They do....... It's football.... It's pretty special there ;D ;D ;D
How long till the media picks this up and does a story on it?? Some of you are only fueling the fire!!! I said this was gonna get bad and it seems to be gaining ground.
I can see it now...
Class 5A Bulletin Board Material
Class 4A Bulletin Board Material
Class 3A Bulletin Board Material
Class 2A Bulletin Board Material
Private School League Bulletin Board Material
PA Dad will get asked to be the moderator for it!! ;D ;D
It would be interesting if we knew which football players got financial aid and compare it to the football stats from last year.
I bet that the stat leaders also receive the majority of the financial aid. But PA does not recruit
Quote from: blueandwhite on December 20, 2016, 12:12:25 pm
It would be interesting if we knew which football players got financial aid and compare it to the football stats from last year.
I bet that the stat leaders also receive the majority of the financial aid. But PA does not recruit
I don't know of a player that contributed that hasn't been there for 6+ years. The state championship MVP started at age 3. Players don't show ability at another school and are then recruited. So define recruiting however you wish, but finding players that are 12 or under would not be an efficient way to cheat
6 years ago, this year's seniors would been 7th graders. It makes complete sense to get a good athlete in by the start of their 7th grade year, that way a school does not have to deal with transfer rules.
And if you don't think high school coaches (public or private) are not looking at the 5th and 6th graders that are coming up, you live in a fantasy world.
A good coach knows what he has coming up from the 7th grade up. He has these kids running his offensive and defensive schemes so that it is second nature to them. So, if a kid wants to move in and play football, and is good, why not. Is he asked to do so, who knows? But a lot of kids who have the opportunity to play for a successful program will seek out one and move in to join it. That, in my opinion, is what happens to PA and the other schools. By the way, I have seen it at Public schools too.
Quote from: Oldbadger on December 21, 2016, 02:41:46 pm
A good coach knows what he has coming up from the 7th grade up. He has these kids running his offensive and defensive schemes so that it is second nature to them. So, if a kid wants to move in and play football, and is good, why not. Is he asked to do so, who knows? But a lot of kids who have the opportunity to play for a successful program will seek out one and move in to join it. That, in my opinion, is what happens to PA and the other schools. By the way, I have seen it at Public schools too.
In northeast Arkansas, we have a name for this time when kids change/move to schools that are better athletically. We call it "summer."
Sadly, saw a kid in junior high basketball that was moved so much, I am not sure he spent more than a semester at any school.
School of choice in Central Arkansas is the same way...kids can go wherever they want and change every year of they want to....
Quote from: STBruin on December 21, 2016, 04:19:17 pm
School of choice in Central Arkansas is the same way...kids can go wherever they want and change every year of they want to....
You misunderstand the rule regarding athletics I think.
I don't think anyone is policing it...how else can a player go from LR Parkview to Robinson...or another one that started at Benton, then goes to LR Central, and now is at Bryant. They should have blanket rule...move to a school 30 miles or less...you are ineligible
A couple of years ago D. Johnson was Conway's leading receiver in football and one of Maumelle's leading scorers in basketball. I *think* it was a bonafide move but I'm not 100% sure.
It is out of control. It is a joke. there is no comparison. Private schools have all the advantages over public schools. Period. They can make up a bunch of bull crap and sad stories to make everyone feel sorry for them but thats what they do. I would really like to see that vote that took place several years back about them having their own classification. I bet no one in a public school would vote for it now. get it back on a ballot and lets see. Can someone do that? Let them recruit all they want to then. They will have to pay that tuition for everyone they do. Call their bluff on it.
Quote from: Sick Dog on December 21, 2016, 09:07:21 pm
It is out of control. It is a joke. there is no comparison. Private schools have all the advantages over public schools. Period. They can make up a bunch of bull crap and sad stories to make everyone feel sorry for them but thats what they do. I would really like to see that vote that took place several years back about them having their own classification. I bet no one in a public school would vote for it now. get it back on a ballot and lets see. Can someone do that? Let them recruit all they want to then. They will have to pay that tuition for everyone they do. Call their bluff on it.
Why don't you get it done then?
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 21, 2016, 05:31:38 pm
You misunderstand the rule regarding athletics I think.
A few years ago, saw a player change from his dad's residence to his mom's residence. In two different jerseys in two weeks.
Saw a high end basketball player play for three teams in three years in high school: Nettleton - Jonesboro - Senath [MO]. You can get some really good deals on apartments, depending on who you know..... ;) ::)
Lots of movement in Basketball, Softball, ......... and even Band. Parents will figure a way to get their kids where they want.
I have heard of a kid that played for 3 different schools in consecutive years...ALL IN SALINE COUNTY
Quote from: PA Dad on December 17, 2016, 08:31:39 pm
And what is your point? Should PA refuse financial assistance to deserving students because they are athletes?
I think PA should be applauded for giving families without the financial resources for their kids to attend PA an opportunity. I'm really puzzled by the criticism.
Is the reason for the financial aid, helping the needy families get a better opportunity, or, is it to get more athletes? If its about athletes its cheating.
Quote from: Grond on December 21, 2016, 10:19:37 pm
A few years ago, saw a player change from his dad's residence to his mom's residence. In two different jerseys in two weeks.
Saw a high end basketball player play for three teams in three years in high school: Nettleton - Jonesboro - Senath [MO]. You can get some really good deals on apartments, depending on who you know..... ;) ::)
Lots of movement in Basketball, Softball, ......... and even Band. Parents will figure a way to get their kids where they want.
what do you want to bet....the QB from Watson Chapel...that quit/got kicked off the team for cussing a coach...is wearing a Pine Bluff baseball uniform this spring...and a PB football jersey this upcoming fall????
Not that hard to move schools, if you just get an address. I doubt the AAA wants to police this too hard. It's the schools that are hungry for new athletes that allow most of this to go on. Didn't the kid at Chapel already return to Chapel?
Quote from: Iknewthemwhen on December 23, 2016, 12:46:18 pm
Not that hard to move schools, if you just get an address. I doubt the AAA wants to police this too hard. It's the schools that are hungry for new athletes that allow most of this to go on. Didn't the kid at Chapel already return to Chapel?
I think it is a little more widespread than that. Think it is a problem in Central Arkansas, and would imagine it is a problem in any of the cities with more than a couple schools. Kids/parents can go where ever they want. Don't know about the kid from Chapel, last I heard he was enrolled at PB.
Despite all the accusations in this thread against Pulaski Academy, I find myself wondering if the fact that PA is a private school actually makes it HARDER to transfer in (for reasons of athletics).
I say this due to the costs of attending PA, and the rules regarding private school sports (meaning that someone that transfers into PA will get much more scrutiny than someone transferring to another central Arkansas school).
Question for MDXPHD: Did you obtain any information/list of students that transferred to PA from 7th to 12th grade?
Please don't say prvate schools are at a disadvantage.
The fact that private schools get to fill their school with athletes that choose to attend for the purpose of athletics is a clear advantage. Most of the numbers I have seen, particularly at the more successful private schools show that an unusually high percentage of the student body is involved in athletics.
http://www.arkansasmatters.com/news/local-news/state-takeover-sought-of-ar-activities-assn/635502141
Saw this on the 4A board. I feel like it's relevant to this too.
CAC FALL SPORTS:
CAC offers financial assistance for 20/176 (11 percent) of their student athletes (7-12 grade).
5/47 (11 percent) football players receive financial assistance.
56/391 of their total student body (7-12) receive financial assistance. This is about 14 percent.
Obviously, people can compare the numbers between PA and CAC. While PA is giving a scholarship to 1/3 of their football team, CAC is giving assistance to a little more than 1/10. Interesting.
Quote from: MDXPHD on January 05, 2017, 10:33:03 am
http://www.arkansasmatters.com/news/local-news/state-takeover-sought-of-ar-activities-assn/635502141
Saw this on the 4A board. I feel like it's relevant to this too.
I don't like government takeover of ANYTHING, and I agree with Coach Withrow's thoughts. On the other hand, I do like the idea of more transparency. Just do it without a government takeover.
Quote from: MDXPHD on January 05, 2017, 12:40:54 pm
CAC FALL SPORTS:
CAC offers financial assistance for 20/176 (11 percent) of their student athletes (7-12 grade).
5/47 (11 percent) football players receive financial assistance.
56/391 of their total student body (7-12) receive financial assistance. This is about 14 percent.
Obviously, people can compare the numbers between PA and CAC. While PA is giving a scholarship to 1/3 of their football team, CAC is giving assistance to a little more than 1/10. Interesting.
I think the cost of attendance also has to be considered. The last time I looked, CAC isn't as expensive as PA or LRC, but that's been over 5 years ago so the numbers could be different now. I imagine though that has something to do with the difference in ratios. Also, a lot of kids from Maumelle go to CAC, which has a higher per capita income than anywhere in the state, so that also has to be considered. It certainly makes for an interesting debate.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on January 05, 2017, 02:59:59 pm
I think the cost of attendance also has to be considered. The last time I looked, CAC isn't as expensive as PA or LRC, but that's been over 5 years ago so the numbers could be different now. I imagine though that has something to do with the difference in ratios. Also, a lot of kids from Maumelle go to CAC, which has a higher per capita income than anywhere in the state, so that also has to be considered. It certainly makes for an interesting debate.
I looked Into CAC. It is a lot "cheaper" than the other metro private schools.
.
I figured this would be the amount of responses after I posted the numbers revealing how lopsided the financial aid is regarding these two football teams. No surprise.
If CAC is ALOT CHEAPER to attend...wouldn't it stand that there wouldn't be as many kids on financial aid? Run any numbers at LRCA?
Quote from: STBruin on January 11, 2017, 06:17:57 pm
If CAC is ALOT CHEAPER to attend...wouldn't it stand that there wouldn't be as many kids on financial aid? Run any numbers at LRCA?
Yes. That makes sense. But the disproportionate amount of football players doesn't.
Not yet. I will post them when I get them though.
I want to know where PAs center is from????
He is from PA...been there for years
He is, Hmmmmmm, I wonder where Daddy Works? St. Francis county maybe, ya think?
Hey there Dad, I was reading some of the posts between you and MDX on page 16, came to the conclusion that there has to be something said about education in spite of all the nonsense towards football. Like you pointed out, give a guy a chance to excel in the class room in a different environment than what he or she was used to while growing up before. I truly have not one problem with that at all. The only reason I commented on the center is I have a friend that works with his dad at Forrest City. If I had a son or grandson that was a 4 star guy and someone suggested I consider PA, gone in 60 seconds. Yall had a punter there a few years back, last name Reep, I know his dad very well, worked with him in the fire service on special projects several times. Great guy, great kid who is now much a man I assume. For me, I like that powerhouse team no body beats, it makes a victory just that much sweeter if and when you do. See ya later men.
what would you consider years 3 or 4
There is not a good solution to private/public that will make everyone happy, not even most happy.
Quote from: gameoflife on February 10, 2017, 12:23:16 pm
There is not a good solution to private/public that will make everyone happy, not even most happy.
I agree. To be honest, PA's football program is heavily dependent on being a member of the AAA and playing against Public Schools. If they were kicked out of the AAA and were not allowed to play against public schools in Arkansas, their program would die
Any program would die if they were kicked out of the AAA. I would like to see numbers run on how many school choice athletes there are in relation to other non athletic school choice kids. On the 6A basketball folder it talks about Maumelle and 4 of their 5 starters this year are new to Maumelle. It's not just a private school issue...
So PA's basketball team has won one game in conference this year, and public schools dominate the top 10. Still waiting for the massive private school advantage to kick in for that sport.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on February 14, 2017, 09:04:52 am
So PA's basketball team has won one game in conference this year, and public schools dominate the top 10. Still waiting for the massive private school advantage to kick in for that sport.
They just need to recruit a little better and get another Korita-type player. Then they'll be back in the mix.
Quote from: STBruin on January 20, 2017, 01:52:10 pm
He is from PA...been there for years
That's a lie....I work with this kids Dad!
I know how long he's been there...
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on February 14, 2017, 09:04:52 am
So PA's basketball team has won one game in conference this year, and public schools dominate the top 10. Still waiting for the massive private school advantage to kick in for that sport.
Looks like they should be giving out some scholarships in basketball as well then!
Quote from: #1jacketfan on February 14, 2017, 11:07:01 am
He is from Hawaii
how do you get from Hawaii to little rock Arkansas
Quote from: #1jacketfan on February 14, 2017, 11:05:36 am
That's a lie....I work with this kids Dad!
I know how long he's been there...
The player being discussed has lived in Little Rock and attended PA since elementary school. Also #1JacketFan I was wondering how the former Wynne QB Trail is doing at Cincinnati. He was an exceptional talent. A friend of mine coached him when he was at Olive Branch and spoke very highly of his character.
Quote from: HowBoutThemJackets on February 14, 2017, 11:26:49 am
how do you get from Hawaii to little rock Arkansas
You don't drive.
Quote from: #1jacketfan on February 14, 2017, 11:05:36 am
That's a lie....I work with this kids Dad!
I know how long he's been there...
That is not a lie...don't care if you work with his dad, that has nothing to do with where his son goes to school and lives. Plus, if you worked with his dad...ASK HIM...and don't call people liars when you do not know the truth...
Taking recruiting off the table for now, the major difference is that if a kid can come up with tuition, however that comes about, he can move into a private school and be able to participate. If a kid in a public school decides he would rather play in the neighboring town the AAA will not allow it unless his family seeks the house or has the electricity turned off so it is uninhabitable. Even then there will be an investigation on whether either option truly happened. Once it is proven that it happened there will still be hurdles to cross to be able to play. That said, it is not a level playing field.
I apologize if this was mentioned earlier, I took a couple of months away from the board and didn't want to read 17 pages, and showing all my cards, I'm from Wynne and my opinions may or may not be tainted lol
Kids jump schools all the time and don't sit out...kid goes to Maumelle, leaves Maumelle for NLR, no playing time so back to Maumelle. OR...Benton to LR Central to Bryant...at private school you have to sit out...so where is the unfair advantage?
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on February 14, 2017, 09:36:50 am
They just need to recruit a little better and get another Korita-type player. Then they'll be back in the mix.
Korita came to the school in 1st grade I believe, so after we recruit his replacement we will have to wait 10 years.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on February 14, 2017, 08:15:29 pm
Korita came to the school in 1st grade I believe, so after we recruit his replacement we will have to wait 10 years.
Haha I hear ya. Of course the recruit part was tongue in cheek but seriously - PA just needs a guy with his skill set and length that they can run the offense through. He was a heck of a ballplayer and I think it's clear this season how important he was. That's really all PA is missing; granted that's a pretty big piece. We'll have to adjust next season as well after Tremont is gone.
Quote from: RedJacket on February 14, 2017, 06:45:03 pm
Taking recruiting off the table for now, the major difference is that if a kid can come up with tuition, however that comes about, he can move into a private school and be able to participate. If a kid in a public school decides he would rather play in the neighboring town the AAA will not allow it unless his family seeks the house or has the electricity turned off so it is uninhabitable. Even then there will be an investigation on whether either option truly happened. Once it is proven that it happened there will still be hurdles to cross to be able to play. That said, it is not a level playing field.
I apologize if this was mentioned earlier, I took a couple of months away from the board and didn't want to read 17 pages, and showing all my cards, I'm from Wynne and my opinions may or may not be tainted lol
I thought the AAA now had a rule that said private school kids had to live within 25 miles of the school? Am I mistaken.
Quote from: STBruin on February 14, 2017, 03:30:41 pm
That is not a lie...don't care if you work with his dad, that has nothing to do with where his son goes to school and lives. Plus, if you worked with his dad...ASK HIM...and don't call people liars when you do not know the truth...
Liar..Liar....so what you got to say now?
I think that public schools and private schools should be able to play each other all through the regular season but then come playoff time the private schools need to have their own playoff and play for their own state championship.
Quote from: #1jacketfan on February 15, 2017, 09:13:59 am
Liar..Liar....so what you got to say now?
These please enlighten me on what he told you...cause I know exactly where the kid lives...
Quote from: HowBoutThemJackets on February 15, 2017, 11:34:36 am
I think that public schools and private schools should be able to play each other all through the regular season but then come playoff time the private schools need to have their own playoff and play for their own state championship.
Cant imagine why you would want that....
Quote from: STBruin on February 15, 2017, 01:16:34 pm
Cant imagine why you would want that....
because of the unfair advantage that private schools have over public schools
Quote from: STBruin on February 15, 2017, 01:15:09 pm
These please enlighten me on what he told you...cause I know exactly where the kid lives...
Just to be perfectly honest....I really could care less where he lives or how long he's been there or where he was born or anything else....sooooo carry on!
Quote from: #1jacketfan on February 16, 2017, 08:56:41 am
Just to be perfectly honest....I really could care less where he lives or how long he's been there or where he was born or anything else....sooooo carry on!
So you made an allegation you had no proof on, called people who disagree a liar, and then admit you don't know anything. You finished runner up in this argument, which is a familiar position for a Wynne fan.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on February 16, 2017, 09:32:33 am
So you made an allegation you had no proof on, called people who disagree a liar, and then admit you don't know anything. You finished runner up in this argument, which is a familiar position for a Wynne fan.
Burn
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on February 16, 2017, 09:32:33 am
So you made an allegation you had no proof on, called people who disagree a liar, and then admit you don't know anything. You finished runner up in this argument, which is a familiar position for a Wynne fan.
(http://1.media.todaysbigthing.cvcdn.com/95/17/9c0413349b785ebc41e9d9390a527638.gif)
Then crickets
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on February 16, 2017, 09:32:33 am
So you made an allegation you had no proof on, called people who disagree a liar, and then admit you don't know anything. You finished runner up in this argument, which is a familiar position for a Wynne fan.
First of all I didn't make the allegation, second of all I know how long the kid has been, but I'm not going to argue with someone that don't know facts like you...besides you talk big on here but you would never man up to your comments in person...but that's cool cause that's how Bruin fans roll!
OK Corral at high noon.😀
Quote from: #1jacketfan on February 17, 2017, 09:42:55 am
First of all I didn't make the allegation, second of all I know how long the kid has been, but I'm not going to argue with someone that don't know facts like you...besides you talk big on here but you would never man up to your comments in person...but that's cool cause that's how Bruin fans roll!
You would probably fumble away any chance you had to win a fight.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on February 14, 2017, 08:47:19 pm
I thought the AAA now had a rule that said private school kids had to live within 25 miles of the school? Am I mistaken.
There is a rule that says that...but its not enforced.
I have been to said kids house...and can tell you he lives within 3-4 miles from the school.
Quote from: STBruin on February 17, 2017, 10:22:49 am
I have been to said kids house...and can tell you he lives within 3-4 miles from the school.
I am sure he does. I wasn't referring to him. Just in general the AAA doesn't enforce rules and coaches are often times afraid to report eachother due to backlash. THey don't enforce enfractions on public schools that bend rules either. I know for a fact there are plenty of public schools who have kids playing that may not be 100% eligible according to AAA rules.
Completely understand!!!! Was referring to #2jacketfan...same issue with school of choice...I have seen in Central Arkansas, where kids have gone to 3 different schools consecutive years and are eligible!
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on February 17, 2017, 10:14:22 am
You would probably fumble away any chance you had to win a fight.
I wish you wanted to find out.....but you my friend are nothing more than a coward that hides behind a fictitious name....so go blow your smoke somewhere else.
Quote from: #1jacketfan on February 17, 2017, 12:41:02 pm
I wish you wanted to find out.....but you my friend are nothing more than a coward that hides behind a fictitious name....so go blow your smoke somewhere else.
Ok. I didn't realize #1jacketfan was on your birth certificate. Is that your first or middle name? Or is the hashtag your first name, and jacketfan your middle name and you go by both like Billy Bob.
Listen, you said some stupid and unsupportable things on a message board. Many have done it. Just take your loss and move on.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on February 17, 2017, 01:50:17 pm
Ok. I didn't realize #1jacketfan was on your birth certificate. Is that your first or middle name? Or is the hashtag your first name, and jacketfan your middle name and you go by both like Billy Bob.
Listen, you said some stupid and unsupportable things on a message board. Many have done it. Just take your loss and move on.
I can support anything I say.....Maybe someday I'll have the privilege of meeting you, so that maybe you could get a better understanding on some real facts!
Thought I would circle back around and see if things had changed around here. Appears not much has...still a bunch of moronic anti-PA rhetoric. My guess is the kids who actually play the game would be embarrassed by all the whiney message board adults from their hometowns.
Red Devil.....regarding the "is #1jacketfan on your birth certificate" commentary...oh my, that was good stuff.
Quote from: #1jacketfan on February 17, 2017, 02:26:36 pm
I can support anything I say.....Maybe someday I'll have the privilege of meeting you, so that maybe you could get a better understanding on some real facts!
Maybe we can watch the 5A state championship game together Mr. Fan.
It's relatively warm in Alma today and when I drove past the Sonic, it was pretty slow.
Quote from: Almatrackster on February 17, 2017, 03:42:31 pm
It's relatively warm in Alma today and when I drove past the Sonic, it was pretty slow.
You mean the parking lot is available?
I'll put a pop knot on #1jacketfan's head so big a calf could suck it.
It's why God made Sonic parking lots.
I shouldn't have to say it, but I will....I say such things in jest. I don't want #1 to get distracted from watching PA game film thinking he's gonna have to brawl.
I thought you were more the peacemaker type???
Private vs Public will always be a debate. ECS and another school get into it on the Basketball threads.
Can't help but wonder if it all comes down to $.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on February 17, 2017, 01:50:17 pm
Ok. I didn't realize #1jacketfan was on your birth certificate. Is that your first or middle name? Or is the hashtag your first name, and jacketfan your middle name and you go by both like Billy Bob.
Listen, you said some stupid and unsupportable things on a message board. Many have done it. Just take your loss and move on.
Do you really think he has a birth certificate?
Quote from: PrivateLesson on March 06, 2017, 07:39:32 pm
I thought you were more the peacemaker type???
Private vs Public will always be a debate. ECS and another school get into it on the Basketball threads.
Can't help but wonder if it all comes down to $.
Probably Baptist. Because those are two private schools playing in championships this weekend. Baptist has a solid team though...always helps when you have a 7'3 player in 4A ball. I don't think they have lost to a team from Arkansas all year.
Yet both are private schools and have issues still with each other or using the word recruiting. Is there even a happy medium to be found in all this??
Quote from: PrivateLesson on March 07, 2017, 12:13:11 pm
Yet both are private schools and have issues still with each other or using the word recruiting. Is there even a happy medium to be found in all this??
Oh I thought you meant people were complaining about two different schools in basketball this season. I'm not sure if they have issues with each other because they are in separate classifications, but I wouldn't doubt it. Of course there isn't a happy medium. It's nearly impossible to find a solution which satisfies both public and private schools.
Quote from: MDXPHD on March 07, 2017, 01:10:19 pm
Of course there isn't a happy medium. It's nearly impossible to find a solution which satisfies both public and private schools.
If that is true, then why the 19 pages of debate? You have been somewhat accused of having a hidden agenda( or strong opinion)against PA or private schools and I thought you were trying to find a solution? Have I misunderstood?
It is a great thread topic for off season, however.
A solution won't please the private schools. They are pleased right now having their advantages and competing against the public schools. Of course, AAA could do a better job of leveling the playing field, but that doesn't mean everyone will be happy. I do have a strong opinion against public vs private, can't deny that. But my solution wouldn't satisfy the private schools. I thought you asked if there and as a solution where everyone is satisfied.
Quote from: MDXPHD on March 07, 2017, 07:32:43 pm
A solution won't please the private schools. They are pleased right now having their advantages and competing against the public schools. Of course, AAA could do a better job of leveling the playing field, but that doesn't mean everyone will be happy. I do have a strong opinion against public vs private, can't deny that. But my solution wouldn't satisfy the private schools. I thought you asked if there and as a solution where everyone is satisfied.
There are a lot of solutions. Doesn't mean they are fair or warranted.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on March 07, 2017, 07:34:00 pm
There are a lot of solutions. Doesn't mean they are fair or warranted.
I believe that depends on which side you stand on.
Quote from: MDXPHD on March 07, 2017, 07:50:37 pm
I believe that depends on which side you stand on.
Fair is not in the eye of the beholder. Fair is an impartial determination.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on March 07, 2017, 08:00:27 pm
Fair is not in the eye of the beholder. Fair is an impartial determination.
Fair might supposedly be an impartial determination, but fair seems to be subjective regarding this topic. Objectively, we are a long ways from fairness though, aren't we?
Honest question. Does anyone know how the bill introduced in Alabama is doing? Getting backlash or positive feedback? I haven't had the time to read much about it lately.
Quote from: MDXPHD on March 07, 2017, 08:30:06 pm
Honest question. Does anyone know how the bill introduced in Alabama is doing? Getting backlash or positive feedback? I haven't had the time to read much about it lately.
That's because you are always in here....😉🙃
What relevance does that have to this current thread?? I only keep up with Bama because of Saban.
Quote from: PrivateLesson on March 08, 2017, 08:23:28 am
That's because you are always in here....😉🙃
What relevance does that have to this current thread?? I only keep up with Bama because of Saban.
That may be true. Luckily, I will soon be taking a few months off. I know you will miss me lol.
The proposed legislation would prevent private and public schools from participating in the same post season tournaments.
Quote from: MDXPHD on March 08, 2017, 09:00:10 am
That may be true. Luckily, I will soon be taking a few months off. I know you will miss me lol.
The proposed legislation would prevent private and public schools from participating in the same post season tournaments.
In Arkansas that would create a postseason tournament for 18 schools (unless you lump charter schools in with those) from Catholic (Rotation # 974.33) to Avilla Christian Academy (rotation # 6.33).
Even if you include the charter schools that play, that's maybe 11 more schools and maybe one that plays football. (Cross County went Charter a few years back).
There's nothing that's going to make this better overnight. Even if the multiplier was 2.00, almost all the schools would stay in their current classification level.
Forget it, Private will never have their own league. They don't want it and they have influence.
There's a thread on Hogville right now about how little support the LRSD and PCCSD give athletics. But some think PA has to cheat to get good players to come to school there.
The return of the Jedi. The dead horse.
Funny, it's not the kids who play the game complaining. It's some adults, who claim they don't speak on behalf of the kids. I am curious, because you don't play the game, upon whose behalf do you speak. Your own sense of justice?
I bet the kids, if they had a vote, would rather beat them than kick them out. It's funny they are the ones with perspective.
Quote from: Yellowcake on March 16, 2017, 12:14:46 am
The return of the Jedi. The dead horse.
If you deed a good example irony in composition? Please refer to the thread entry above.😎
Funny, it's not the kids who play the game complaining. It's some adults, who claim they don't speak on behalf of the kids. I am curious, because you don't play the game, upon whose behalf do you speak. Your own sense of justice?
I bet the kids, if they had a vote, would rather beat them than kick them out. It's funny they are the ones with perspective.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on March 10, 2017, 01:49:17 pm
There's a thread on Hogville right now about how little support the LRSD and PCCSD give athletics. But some think PA has to cheat to get good players to come to school there.
Joe T Robinson sure is making strides.
Quote from: AirWarren on March 16, 2017, 09:07:10 am
Joe T Robinson sure is making strides.
Their facilities are awesome. Mills is also getting some major facility upgrades. Maumelle has great facilities for everything but baseball and softball, and those upgrades are coming soon.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on March 16, 2017, 09:23:27 am
Their facilities are awesome. Mills is also getting some major facility upgrades. Maumelle has great facilities for everything but baseball and softball, and those upgrades are coming soon.
Maumelle facilities are nice.
Quote from: AirWarren on March 16, 2017, 09:07:10 am
Joe T Robinson sure is making strides.
yes...but when you seem to welcome all the problem athletes...it just doesnt seem to pan out.
Quote from: DuckyDon on March 16, 2017, 04:34:40 pm
yes...but when you seem to welcome all the problem athletes...it just doesnt seem to pan out.
I'm talking about parent involvement and facilities.
These numbers represent the number of football players in grades 10-12 that received financial aid for 2016.
Conway Christian - 1
Shiloh - 2
Harding - 4
Episcopal - 5
CAC - 5
Baptist - 6
Catholic - 7
LRCA - 9
Pulaski Academy - 20 (won state championship)
Catholic has 758 students in their school alone. LRCA is also larger than PA with 817 students enrolled. Do what you want with this information, but it seemed important on this thread and the 5A football board. I don't have much time to post these days, but I'll post more information if it seems important enough. Also, let me know if I left out a football school. It seems that there are 9 or so in the state, with 209 schools overall that participate in football. I probably won't have time to respond to any inquiries regarding this post, just a heads up.
Thanks for the info MDXPHD, but where did you get this information from?
Quote from: MDXPHD on April 10, 2017, 02:00:59 pm
These numbers represent the number of football players in grades 10-12 that received financial aid for 2016.
Conway Christian - 1
Shiloh - 2
Harding - 4
Episcopal - 5
CAC - 5
Baptist - 6
Catholic - 7
LRCA - 9
Pulaski Academy - 20 (won state championship)
Catholic has 758 students in their school alone. LRCA is also larger than PA with 817 students enrolled. Do what you want with this information, but it seemed important on this thread and the 5A football board. I don't have much time to post these days, but I'll post more information if it seems important enough. Also, let me know if I left out a football school. It seems that there are 9 or so in the state, with 209 schools overall that participate in football. I probably won't have time to respond to any inquiries regarding this post, just a heads up.
This, if accurate, would constitute a smoking gun. If these numbers are true how can the AAA allow this ? why would they tilt the field so dramatically in one schools favor ? with all the talk of great coaching and great system and all the other bs this changes things, in a MAJOR way. I'm starting to see now that if they played it straight up, you went to the public school where you lived, the final would have been a Wynne/Batesville rematch. PA would still be very competitive but would come in somewhere near number 7 or 8. It is a shame the state allows this.
Quote from: MDXPHD on March 08, 2017, 09:00:10 am
That may be true. Luckily, I will soon be taking a few months off. I know you will miss me lol.
The proposed legislation would prevent private and public schools from participating in the same post season tournaments.
I took some time off and you seem to have not Mr.Phd! :)
Quote from: MDXPHD on April 10, 2017, 02:00:59 pm
These numbers represent the number of football players in grades 10-12 that received financial aid for 2016.
Conway Christian - 1
Shiloh - 2
Harding - 4
Episcopal - 5
CAC - 5
Baptist - 6
Catholic - 7
LRCA - 9
Pulaski Academy - 20 (won state championship)
Catholic has 758 students in their school alone. LRCA is also larger than PA with 817 students enrolled. Do what you want with this information, but it seemed important on this thread and the 5A football board. I don't have much time to post these days, but I'll post more information if it seems important enough. Also, let me know if I left out a football school. It seems that there are 9 or so in the state, with 209 schools overall that participate in football. I probably won't have time to respond to any inquiries regarding this post, just a heads up.
I would like to know where you are getting these numbers...cause that number seems awfully high...and I can think of a handful that are probably on aid...but not 20...
Quote from: JessieP on April 11, 2017, 03:08:52 pm
My post included the caveat "if these numbers are true". It does seem high, that is why I called it the smoking gun. For years we have heard rumblings and rumor about the whole "PA recruits" issue. If it is in fact 20 on the football team then yes, we need some serious asterisk's attached. If proof of the number 20 is presented then you will see quite an uproar. I'm betting the anger would hit levels that would force the AAA to take action. Earlier this year there was the story about some goon on PA that slugged another player. He was suspended, like everyone else is, and his Mother hired a lawyer to appeal. Coach Kelly was quoted in the paper saying "we will honor the rules of the AAA", yet he played him anyway while the appeal played out. Not exactly honoring the rules is it ? anyway, the Mother said he needed to play because he couldn't afford college and needed a scholarship. A lot of people back then were thinking "if he can't afford college why is he at PA". Does PA look past goonish behavior players because he's good football players ? kinda shoots the whole "we're an academic school" argument out of the water.
Calling a 16/17 year old a goon...that has just been punched in the face...is a little extreme. It's football you have to keep your composure, but calling a kid a goon is uncalled for. On another note, I would say the number is rather high, but I wish there was a place where you could pull up all the school of choice kids or be able to track some of the public school kids from school to school. Its happening...and I would say at the public school level its a FAR larger issue than you would think...3 scenarios...that I know are FACTS....kid 1 starts out at 9th grade Benton, then goes 10th grade to LR Central, then ends up at Bryant for his junior year...eligible...kid 2 goes 9th grade at Maumelle, 10th grade at NLR, 11th grade back at Maumelle....eligible...kid 3 goes to 3 DIFFERENT schools all in Saline County...eligible...ALSO...how are kids...that get kicked off the baseball team in Bryant eligible to play the same year at Joe T Robinson?
Quote from: JessieP on April 11, 2017, 11:28:23 am
This, if accurate, would constitute a smoking gun. If these numbers are true how can the AAA allow this ? why would they tilt the field so dramatically in one schools favor ? with all the talk of great coaching and great system and all the other bs this changes things, in a MAJOR way. I'm starting to see now that if they played it straight up, you went to the public school where you lived, the final would have been a Wynne/Batesville rematch. PA would still be very competitive but would come in somewhere near number 7 or 8. It is a shame the state allows this.
'
If it's a smoking gun, take it to the AAA and make a complaint. Why just complaint on here when you can do something about it?
Jessie, you need some consistency in your posts. After the PA/Batesville game you posted that there was no way PA recruits based on the athletes you saw. Does the financial assistance make the PA players better athletes or were you just wrong in your assessment of PA athletes?
MDX continues his PA bashing and always will. But these numbers tell us nothing about recruiting. In fact, MDX admits he has no evidence that PA recruits If this is a smoking gun, tell us which players were recruited and how it happened. It's been pointed out numerous times on this board that most PA players have been at PA since grade school. Does PA really recruit grade schoolers? Get real.
PA's tuition is about twice as much as LRCA. PA has a much larger endowment that LRCA. It makes sense that PA students would need more financial assistance because of the greater tuition. And it makes sense that PA would give more assistance because of its larger endowment.
What percentage of students overall at PA get financial assistance versus football players?
Knee jerk reactions to numbers that are not in context does not further intelligent conversation.
The only answer to this question is one I read on here often, is to separate the private and the public. I know that will not make the private school folks happy but they did choose the private school route. Nothing else will ever stop the bickering nor answer the question of "do they recruit".
No name calling in this thread,
Do not trash another school
If you can't follow the simple rules this thread will be gone and you will have a vacation
Quote from: PA Dad on April 12, 2017, 01:29:33 pm
'
If it's a smoking gun, take it to the AAA and make a complaint. Why just complaint on here when you can do something about it?
Jessie, you need some consistency in your posts. After the PA/Batesville game you posted that there was no way PA recruits based on the athletes you saw. Does the financial assistance make the PA players better athletes or were you just wrong in your assessment of PA athletes?
MDX continues his PA bashing and always will. But these numbers tell us nothing about recruiting. In fact, MDX admits he has no evidence that PA recruits If this is a smoking gun, tell us which players were recruited and how it happened. It's been pointed out numerous times on this board that most PA players have been at PA since grade school. Does PA really recruit grade schoolers? Get real.
PA's tuition is about twice as much as LRCA. PA has a much larger endowment that LRCA. It makes sense that PA students would need more financial assistance because of the greater tuition. And it makes sense that PA would give more assistance because of its larger endowment.
What percentage of students overall at PA get financial assistance versus football players?
Knee jerk reactions to numbers that are not in context does not further intelligent conversation.
Private schools will recruit grade school athletes!!!! I have seen it with my own eyes
Quote from: PA Dad on April 12, 2017, 01:29:33 pm
'
If it's a smoking gun, take it to the AAA and make a complaint. Why just complaint on here when you can do something about it?
Jessie, you need some consistency in your posts. After the PA/Batesville game you posted that there was no way PA recruits based on the athletes you saw. Does the financial assistance make the PA players better athletes or were you just wrong in your assessment of PA athletes?
MDX continues his PA bashing and always will. But these numbers tell us nothing about recruiting. In fact, MDX admits he has no evidence that PA recruits If this is a smoking gun, tell us which players were recruited and how it happened. It's been pointed out numerous times on this board that most PA players have been at PA since grade school. Does PA really recruit grade schoolers? Get real.
PA's tuition is about twice as much as LRCA. PA has a much larger endowment that LRCA. It makes sense that PA students would need more financial assistance because of the greater tuition. And it makes sense that PA would give more assistance because of its larger endowment.
What percentage of students overall at PA get financial assistance versus football players?
Knee jerk reactions to numbers that are not in context does not further intelligent conversation.
Consistency in my post ? your kidding, right ? if new evidence comes to light on any subject are you cemented to your first opinion ? If I go to my Dr. in June for a physical and he tells me "your weight and blood pressure are just fine", for the next 9 months I adhere to the Homer Simpson diet. I return to the same Dr. in March and he say's "You've gained 25 lbs, your blood pressure is up" should I say "Geez, have a little consistency in your diagnosis". I always assumed maybe 10% of the team received financial aid. If the numbers posted are correct that would mean about 25% do. Does 25% of the general enrollment at PA receive financial aid ? If the number of football players receiving aid is greater then the general student body then quod erat demonstrandum, they recruit!
Quote from: JessieP on April 12, 2017, 07:37:15 pm
Consistency in my post ? your kidding, right ? if new evidence comes to light on any subject are you cemented to your first opinion ? If I go to my Dr. in June for a physical and he tells me "your weight and blood pressure are just fine", for the next 9 months I adhere to the Homer Simpson diet. I return to the same Dr. in March and he say's "You've gained 25 lbs, your blood pressure is up" should I say "Geez, have a little consistency in your diagnosis". I always assumed maybe 10% of the team received financial aid. If the numbers posted are correct that would mean about 25% do. Does 25% of the general enrollment at PA receive financial aid ? If the number of football players receiving aid is greater then the general student body then quod erat demonstrandum, they recruit!
You said that PA could not be recruiting based on your evaluation of the PA players you saw. Financial aid cannot change the ability of the players. If you don't see an inconsistency there there's nothing I can do to help you.
Quote from: PA Dad on April 12, 2017, 08:18:53 pm
You said that PA could not be recruiting based on your evaluation of the PA players you saw. Financial aid cannot change the ability of the players. If you don't see an inconsistency there there's nothing I can do to help you.
Maybe he's saying he's a poor judge of talent ? Or P.A is bad at recruiting star athletes?
Quote from: HorseFeathers on April 12, 2017, 08:21:41 pm
Maybe he's saying he's a poor judge of talent ? Or P.A is bad at recruiting star athletes?
Or maybe both?
Quote from: JessieP on April 12, 2017, 07:37:15 pm
Consistency in my post ? your kidding, right ? if new evidence comes to light on any subject are you cemented to your first opinion ? If I go to my Dr. in June for a physical and he tells me "your weight and blood pressure are just fine", for the next 9 months I adhere to the Homer Simpson diet. I return to the same Dr. in March and he say's "You've gained 25 lbs, your blood pressure is up" should I say "Geez, have a little consistency in your diagnosis". I always assumed maybe 10% of the team received financial aid. If the numbers posted are correct that would mean about 25% do. Does 25% of the general enrollment at PA receive financial aid ? If the number of football players receiving aid is greater then the general student body then quod erat demonstrandum, they recruit!
You ignored my suggestion that you go to the AAA with a complaint if you have a smoking gun. Why? If you have a smoking gun that PA recruits, the AAA should be involved. If PA recruits it should be punished. So why not make a complaint?
Do you know who decides if a PA student receives financial aid and how much the student receives? Do you know how that relates to an allegation of recruiting? If you do, please tell us what you know. If you don't, please get educated on the subject.
Quote from: PA Dad on April 12, 2017, 08:37:49 pm
You ignored my suggestion that you go to the AAA with a complaint if you have a smoking gun. Why? If you have a smoking gun that PA recruits, the AAA should be involved. If PA recruits it should be punished. So why not make a complaint?
Do you know who decides if a PA student receives financial aid and how much the student receives? Do you know how that relates to an allegation of recruiting? If you do, please tell us what you know. If you don't, please get educated on the subject.
Let me repeat this for the 137th time, comprehension issues ?, IF the numbers are correct. If, again I said IF. Why don't I go to the AAA ? I have no proof. Once more for people at home, if the numbers are correct we have the smoking gun. I never once said we have the smoking gun. Let's turn the tables, if (that pesky word again) the number of football players receiving aid is a higher percentage then the student body at large can you explain that ? if it is all done above table with no preference given to football players the numbers would be the same, the exact same. If 10% of PA students get assistance then 10% of the football players would, it would be in lock step. The problem with coaxing players to attend a certain school with offers of financial aid is that it double dips. It adds to one school and subtracts from another. One gets stronger while another gets weaker. All anyone has ever said is that if some private schools offer aid for athletes then fine, more power to them. Just don't let them play with schools that can't. It is a clear and undisputed advantage.
Quote from: JessieP on April 12, 2017, 09:19:41 pm
Let me repeat this for the 137th time, comprehension issues ?, IF the numbers are correct. If, again I said IF. Why don't I go to the AAA ? I have no proof. Once more for people at home, if the numbers are correct we have the smoking gun. I never once said we have the smoking gun. Let's turn the tables, if (that pesky word again) the number of football players receiving aid is a higher percentage then the student body at large can you explain that ? if it is all done above table with no preference given to football players the numbers would be the same, the exact same. If 10% of PA students get assistance then 10% of the football players would, it would be in lock step. The problem with coaxing players to attend a certain school with offers of financial aid is that it double dips. It adds to one school and subtracts from another. One gets stronger while another gets weaker. All anyone has ever said is that if some private schools offer aid for athletes then fine, more power to them. Just don't let them play with schools that can't. It is a clear and undisputed advantage.
Well, you still didn't answer my question. Who decides who gets financial aid at PA and how much they get? How does that affect the recruiting argument? Knowing the facts is important.
Quote from: MDXPHD on April 10, 2017, 02:00:59 pm
These numbers represent the number of football players in grades 10-12 that received financial aid for 2016.
Conway Christian - 1
Shiloh - 2
Harding - 4
Episcopal - 5
CAC - 5
Baptist - 6
Catholic - 7
LRCA - 9
Pulaski Academy - 20 (won state championship)
Catholic has 758 students in their school alone. LRCA is also larger than PA with 817 students enrolled. Do what you want with this information, but it seemed important on this thread and the 5A football board. I don't have much time to post these days, but I'll post more information if it seems important enough. Also, let me know if I left out a football school. It seems that there are 9 or so in the state, with 209 schools overall that participate in football. I probably won't have time to respond to any inquiries regarding this post, just a heads up.
ok, so I did some asking around...here is what I found...Financial aid is applied for and rewarded by a 3rd party clearing house. The clearing house has no idea if the person applying is an athlete or not, and the school that the applicant is applying for financial aid for has 0 to do with the application, approval or amount awarded. From what I was told all of this information is reported to AAA, and they have a very fluid and transparent relationship with the clearing house. They know how much the applicant qualifies for and how much is rewarded, which in contrast to what people on here believe, is never a "Full Ride" and in most cases is not any where close. There is no scholarship awarded by the school...tie that with the 25 mile radius rule and the cost of tuition,and having to play up in classification there are some distinct negative consequences to private schools competing...ADDITIONALLY...public school districts do not regulate their transfers, and in 2018 LRSD and PCSSD students will be able to go to whatever school they want to as long as they provide their own transportation...at least now...they have to lie about their address...so I ask...where is the BIGGER problem? I know...everyone hates PA...I get that, and in most cases...people have no idea about the kids on the team, or the amount of work that they have to put in on top of a very challenging academic course load...why do you think the AAA hasn't done anything? Didn't they make NLR forfeit games for recruiting?
PA Dad, this is a 5A football board, so of course I'm talking about the most dominant private school in 5A. Here, maybe this additional information will help you understand that it's not a narrow agenda against PA.
Trinity Christian, a small private school in Texarkana, has dominated the 1A track division for several years now on the girls side and did a few years ago on the boys side. They award way more athletes in track financial aid than they do in any of their other sports.
Episcopal awarded 8 high school basketball athletes financial aid last season. They only awarded 4 in football in 2016. Guess which sport they were good at?
Regardless of what private school supporters want to say (not you PA dad, you agree mostly), the advantages are too great to ignore anymore and change must occur. It's not just the financial aid. It's a combination of several advantages. There has to be a better method than to just bump them up a class if they have more than 80 kids. I guess after doing this research and writing my paper, I'm a little more bitter about the situation than before.
Private schools have won 40 percent of the girls soccer championships since 2007. In 5A girls soccer, they have won 75 percent, all of the losses to Harrison, and all of the runner ups were private schools. From 2008-2015, there were 48 championship tennis matches played. 23 were won by private schools. Private schools have won 17ish percent of the football titles, despite only making up 4 percent of the participating teams.
Other states have seen a similar rise in private school dominance. In 2012, Alabama watched private schools win 36 percent of the state championship in all sports. In California in 2012, all 5 mens basketball championships were won by private schools and 53 percent of the total championships were won by privates chools.
STBruin - According to the data reported to AAA, there was at least one football player who received almost 14k in financial aid. Surely this is a full ride, right? maybe it's not. On average, the 20 football players received about 7500 each, which is slightly more than half tuition. I have never assumed they give a lot of athletes a full ride.
Also, for those of you that have asked, PA gives 20.5 percent of their total student body financial aid. The only sport that gave a higher percentage than the 20.5 was football.
blueandwhite - I got the information from the documents required to be turned in to AAA.
privatelesson - I'm writing a paper on this topic and that's why I had to take some time off. Now I have some other stuff going on for the next few months, so I won't be on here very much. I read but don't post a ton these days.
So, the real question is, what should be done to fix this? Should Arkansas move to a success advancement system, similar to what Seven laid out earlier in this thread? Should private schools who give a 20 percent of their athletes financial aid in a specific sport be bumped up to the highest classification? There are plenty of options out there. Obviously, the current system is not working.
Boy, you just upset a bunch of folks. I and a few of my friends have long thought the private school situation is out of balance. There is only one real solution, separate leagues. Of course the private schools for the most part will not like it.
Other possibilities, Move the private schools up in class based on the number of scholarships they award for the sport in question or for the highest percentage of any sport. Have them play in private conferences during the season, they could play anyone in the non conference part of the season. See no really good solution for the private schools.
Quote from: MDXPHD on April 13, 2017, 09:37:40 am
PA Dad, this is a 5A football board, so of course I'm talking about the most dominant private school in 5A. Here, maybe this additional information will help you understand that it's not a narrow agenda against PA.
Trinity Christian, a small private school in Texarkana, has dominated the 1A track division for several years now on the girls side and did a few years ago on the boys side. They award way more athletes in track financial aid than they do in any of their other sports.
Episcopal awarded 8 high school basketball athletes financial aid last season. They only awarded 4 in football in 2016. Guess which sport they were good at?
Regardless of what private school supporters want to say (not you PA dad, you agree mostly), the advantages are too great to ignore anymore and change must occur. It's not just the financial aid. It's a combination of several advantages. There has to be a better method than to just bump them up a class if they have more than 80 kids. I guess after doing this research and writing my paper, I'm a little more bitter about the situation than before.
Private schools have won 40 percent of the girls soccer championships since 2007. In 5A girls soccer, they have won 75 percent, all of the losses to Harrison, and all of the runner ups were private schools. From 2008-2015, there were 48 championship tennis matches played. 23 were won by private schools. Private schools have won 17ish percent of the football titles, despite only making up 4 percent of the participating teams.
Other states have seen a similar rise in private school dominance. In 2012, Alabama watched private schools win 36 percent of the state championship in all sports. In California in 2012, all 5 mens basketball championships were won by private schools and 53 percent of the total championships were won by privates chools.
STBruin - According to the data reported to AAA, there was at least one football player who received almost 14k in financial aid. Surely this is a full ride, right? maybe it's not. On average, the 20 football players received about 7500 each, which is slightly more than half tuition. I have never assumed they give a lot of athletes a full ride.
Also, for those of you that have asked, PA gives 20.5 percent of their total student body financial aid. The only sport that gave a higher percentage than the 20.5 was football.
blueandwhite - I got the information from the documents required to be turned in to AAA.
privatelesson - I'm writing a paper on this topic and that's why I had to take some time off. Now I have some other stuff going on for the next few months, so I won't be on here very much. I read but don't post a ton these days.
So, the real question is, what should be done to fix this? Should Arkansas move to a success advancement system, similar to what Seven laid out earlier in this thread? Should private schools who give a 20 percent of their athletes financial aid in a specific sport be bumped up to the highest classification? There are plenty of options out there. Obviously, the current system is not working.
MDX, you know I agree with you regarding private school advantages. And, I'm in favor of moving schools up based on success. My gripe is not with your arguments - I just don't like the "recruiting" conclusions drawn from your numbers. The evidence doesn't support the "recruiting" conclusions.
Somebody said that private schools use a third party to decide on financial aid, and they don't know who is and isn't an athlete, well this is directly from the PA website
Student's Name_______________________ Grade_______
Will this student be involved in school sponsored athletics? YES ___ NO _____
*Arkansas Activities Association requires all financial aid recipients in grades 7-12 to indicate if they will be
involved in school sponsored athletics in the year they will receive aid. You must indicate YES or NO above
or your financial aid application will not be process. If you elect to receive financial aid but did not qualify for
aid based on your SSS application, you child may not be involved in a PA athletic program. However, you may
choose to be involved in a PA athletic program and not receive financial aid. If you elect to receive aid and you
indicated NO for the question above but your child decides to play a sport, you will forfeit all or a portion of
your award.
This has been a fascinating topic of conversation, and until not I have not posted.
BUT.....
If nothing is affected by the knowledge of whether the student will be an athlete or not, why put it on the financial application?
Quote from: PA Dad on April 13, 2017, 10:58:16 am
MDX, you know I agree with you regarding private school advantages. And, I'm in favor of moving schools up based on success. My gripe is not with your arguments - I just don't like the "recruiting" conclusions drawn from your numbers. The evidence doesn't support the "recruiting" conclusions.
The clearing house post was quite laughable. They have no idea ? why ask the question ? I mean did anyone actually buy that ? "The clearing house has no idea if the person applying is an athlete or not, and the school that the applicant is applying for financial aid for has 0 to do with the application, approval or amount awarded" (insert hook in mouth), Come on. I promise you one thing, someone somewhere attaches an initial or some sort of unnoticeable stamp on that application and BOOM, it's approved.
On our team this year of the 30 players that were starters, played on special teams or immediate backups 24 have been at PA since before 6th grade. Six players came in 7th and 8th grade. I am not going to provide overly specific information as its not appropriate but of the 6 that came in 7th and 8th only 3 played regularly and three moved here from outside of little rock. If I get a chance I will post similar information about our previous teams.
OK, OK, OK, let's say the private schools don't recruit (I can't believe I typed that). Private schools still have advantage over most public schools, in the way of financial support.
The private schools can throw as much money as they want at athletics, and the public schools have rules, regulations, and set budgets they have to work within.
How ya'll private school supporters going to defend that?
Quote from: CoachTaylorPA on April 13, 2017, 12:30:29 pm
On our team this year of the 30 players that were starters, played on special teams or immediate backups 24 have been at PA since before 6th grade. Six players came in 7th and 8th grade. I am not going to provide overly specific information as its not appropriate but of the 6 that came in 7th and 8th only 3 played regularly and three moved here from outside of little rock. If I get a chance I will post similar information about our previous teams.
One of the driving forces behind many bad feelings about PA is that the AAA will never discipline them or question their methods. They have too much money and power. PA people tell us were crazy, jealous and everything else. CoachTaylorPA, who has always been polite, complementary and a pleasure to talk with, is now a moderator on this site. The discussion on the ethics on PA is now being moderated by....a coach at PA. Now this is not directed at CoachTaylor or his character. From what I've seen it's unimpeachable, he has always been an upfront guy. I do enjoy interacting with him, he knows his stuff. But please, tell me you at least see my point ? I mean come on. It's like a microcosm of a much bigger argument. That argument being "PA doesn't play by the same rules". The people who run this site can do whatever they want, they may very well boot me for even questioning things. Discussing PA in a questioning manner may very well be a death sentence here. But what would you think if you went to a boxing match and the announcer said "The referee for tonight's fight between Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield will be Mike Tyson's manager".
Quote from: PA Dad on April 13, 2017, 10:58:16 am
MDX, you know I agree with you regarding private school advantages. And, I'm in favor of moving schools up based on success. My gripe is not with your arguments - I just don't like the "recruiting" conclusions drawn from your numbers. The evidence doesn't support the "recruiting" conclusions.
I have said it multiple times...I have no evidence of recruiting. You know the other advantages are the ones I'm concerned about. I think I'm going to post my paper here when I finish it. Probably around August or so. If anyone is interested. Sorry Grond, I'm not sure how objective it will seem. It may have some bias against private schools. ;)
JessieP, check your private messages.
Coach Taylor, appreciate you posting some information. I'm not concerned about when kids come, but others on here seem to be focused on that. So maybe that will help them out.
Episcopal Collegiate has the following statement on its website regarding financial aid:
The Arkansas Activities Association, which oversees interscholastic athletic competition in Arkansas, requires that any non-public school provide verification that all students competing in sports receive no more financial aid than is justified based on their financial need, as determined by an independent service. Therefore, any student that receives financial assistance and might possibly compete in interscholastic competition must have a release form signed by their family that authorizes the School to provide information to the AAA if so requested. At Episcopal Collegiate School, over 75% of the student body participates in such interscholastic competition.
It may be a bit clearer than the PA statement, but the message is the same. The financial aid request form sent to the firm determining financial need does not ask whether or not the student is involved in athletics. The firm (SSS) bases its decision solely on the financial statements and tax returns of the parent(s). On the other hand, each private school MUST ask the question. The school must notify the AAA of all athletes receiving financial aid. If the athlete is receiving financial aid in an amount that exceeds what SSS determined was the student's actual need, then that student is ineligible to participate in any athletic program. As indicated by ECS, the parents must authorize the school to release all of the otherwise confidential financial aid application information if the AAA has any questions regarding the amount, and type, of aid being received by the athlete.
As PA Dad pointed out, because PA has a larger endowment fund than many other private schools, it is able to accept more students needing financial aid. This is a positive. PA can have a more diverse student body as a result. PA also has the ability to, in some cases, provide additional financial aid beyond the student's "assessed" need. This is also a positive in attracting the best students. On the other hand, when they do so, the student becomes ineligible to be on an athletic team.
This is a real recruiting advantage. A PA coach goes out to recruit a kid in elementary school, who may or may not ever become athletic. The coach tells the kid's parents, "I want your kid to come to PA. We can offer financial aid up to your assessed level of need. This will probably still require you to come up with thousands of dollars a year for tuition. If your child never plays a sport, he will still receive financial aid. If we give you any extra aid, your child will never be able to participate in sports. On the other hand, if you think your child may want to play football when he grows up, you could send your child to NLR, Bryant, Cabot, etc., that have great football programs and facilities far better than ours, and it won't cost you a dime". What a recruiting pitch.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on April 13, 2017, 03:09:09 pm
Episcopal Collegiate has the following statement on its website regarding financial aid:
The Arkansas Activities Association, which oversees interscholastic athletic competition in Arkansas, requires that any non-public school provide verification that all students competing in sports receive no more financial aid than is justified based on their financial need, as determined by an independent service. Therefore, any student that receives financial assistance and might possibly compete in interscholastic competition must have a release form signed by their family that authorizes the School to provide information to the AAA if so requested. At Episcopal Collegiate School, over 75% of the student body participates in such interscholastic competition.
It may be a bit clearer than the PA statement, but the message is the same. The financial aid request form sent to the firm determining financial need does not ask whether or not the student is involved in athletics. The firm (SSS) bases its decision solely on the financial statements and tax returns of the parent(s). On the other hand, each private school MUST ask the question. The school must notify the AAA of all athletes receiving financial aid. If the athlete is receiving financial aid in an amount that exceeds what SSS determined was the student's actual need, then that student is ineligible to participate in any athletic program. As indicated by ECS, the parents must authorize the school to release all of the otherwise confidential financial aid application information if the AAA has any questions regarding the amount, and type, of aid being received by the athlete.
As PA Dad pointed out, because PA has a larger endowment fund than many other private schools, it is able to accept more students needing financial aid. This is a positive. PA can have a more diverse student body as a result. PA also has the ability to, in some cases, provide additional financial aid beyond the student's "assessed" need. This is also a positive in attracting the best students. On the other hand, when they do so, the student becomes ineligible to be on an athletic team.
This is a real recruiting advantage. A PA coach goes out to recruit a kid in elementary school, who may or may not ever become athletic. The coach tells the kid's parents, "I want your kid to come to PA. We can offer financial aid up to your assessed level of need. This will probably still require you to come up with thousands of dollars a year for tuition. If your child never plays a sport, he will still receive financial aid. If we give you any extra aid, your child will never be able to participate in sports. On the other hand, if you think your child may want to play football when he grows up, you could send your child to NLR, Bryant, Cabot, etc., that have great football programs and facilities far better than ours, and it won't cost you a dime". What a recruiting pitch.
Again this post misses the point. The main source of contention among many many public schools is under table dealings. Just by having a 3rd party clearing house doesn't negate the possibility of "creative paperwork". What did Alabama, USC, Washington, Texas A&M, Ohio State and SMU in 1986 along with a dozen or more other schools all have in common ? they all had NCAA compliance officers. Every single one of their programs was audited by an off campus company to insure compliance. All of them hit with massive NCAA infractions for lack of compliance. The point stands, why do football players have a higher rate of financial aid ? is a very easy question.
Maybe the correct question is why do a greater percentage of students receiving financial aid choose to play football? As has been noted repeatedly, most PA football players enrolled before the sixth grade, which is before they have exhibited any skills related to playing football. Parents send their kids to a school like PA because they want them to receive an education that will prepare them to later attend the best quality colleges. If you lived in Little Rock, you would realize that there aren't many public school options that offer the same level of academic excellence. Parents only care about preparing their kids for college, which is why they enroll them in PA at the earliest opportunity.
Why do students on financial aid choose to play a sport? In many cases it is because the student and their parents realize how expensive college can be, and how hard it is to get into the best colleges. If a kid turns out to have athletic ability, it accomplishes two purposes. First, it makes receiving an athletic scholarship possible, which beats having to rely on needs based financial aid later on. Second, getting into a school like Harvard is not easy. Tens of thousands of students apply to the best colleges, with only a couple of thousand being accepted. A PA education gives the kid the academic credentials to qualify. However, almost every other applicant has equivalent academic credentials. Almost without exception, every kid accepted to a place like Harvard has something extra that separates them from the masses. They may be musicians, writers, actors, debaters, or even athletes.
They all have some talent that shows they have extraordinary discipline, drive, ambition and leadership skills. If a kid joins the football team and becomes a star player on a State Championship team, he increases his chances of getting into a school like Harvard and/or earning a scholarship that he needs to go to college. There is no conspiracy to what goes on. It is how real people pursue their aspirations if they live in Central Arkansas. For a lot of people, football is an end, in and of itself. For kids that attend a school like PA, and their parents, football is a potential means to a more important end. Now you have a simple answer to your easy question.
PA Dad and Sevenof400, this post is primarily for both of you, since you both seem to be supporters of the success advancement system.
First, I will say that a multiplier or a separate league is not the answer. A separate league would actually make things much worse in Arkansas, in my opinion. We can debate about this if anyone wants to.
The success advancement would be the easiest system to implement, but will public schools consider themselves to be punished for winning? A team like Batesville, who has been to the semifinals time and time again, would have already moved up in most success advancement systems. Of course, they went to three state championship games as well, but never got the victory. Do we punish them for winning a lot, but not winning the ultimate goal? Or do we base the success advancement system solely on championships...such as you have to win at least one championship and been in the semifinals at least two times in the last 3 years.
I think the most difficult to adopt, but one of my favorites, is a combination of different methods. I believe we have to address socioeconomic factors.
In Oregon, the association takes the number of students who qualify for free or reduced lunches in each school, multiplies it by .25, and subtracts that number from the total number of students. Then they use that final number as the enrollment number in order to place them into their respective classifications. Of course, this doesn't solve the problem alone, but combined with success advancement, it might be more effective than the others.
Oklahoma also has a unique method. "In athletic activities, a member school that would be placed in Class 4A or below according to ADM shall be placed one classification above the classification in which the member school would be placed according to ADM if the member school meets any three of the following four criteria:
i) the school has the ability to decline admission or enrollment to a student, even if the student and the student's parents (or custodial parent or court-appointed guardian with legal custody of the student) reside within that school's public school district or designated geographic area;
ii) the school is located within a fifteen (15) mile radius of a school placed in the 5A or 6A classification according to ADM;
iii) fewer than twenty-five (25) percent of the children enrolled at the school in grades nine through twelve qualify for free or reduced lunches;
iv) the school's ADM in grades nine through 12 has increased by fifty (50) percent or more over the previous three school years.
Not only does Oklahoma implement the method mentioned above, but they also take into account a type of success advancement method. Rule 14 also explains, "A school that would be placed in Class 4A or below according to ADM, but which has been moved up one classification pursuant to the above criteria will be moved back down in classification in a particular activity if the school's team has not finished among the top eight teams in that activity in at least three of the previous five school years."
What are y'all's thoughts based on the above information? Anything you like more than the others? Obviously Arkansas would not replicate either of these, but each state needs to address this based on the state's specific needs. This method might take care of the dominant public schools as well, and even the playing field across all of the classifications. Of course, travel (and a multitude of other concerns) would need to be addressed.
I guess I am really curious to see if the socioeconomic mixed with tournament success would be a popular method.
If the goal is to arrange classifications so that they are most competitive, I favor a strictly success based system. The socioeconomic factors are important, but you could have a rich school which performs poorly in football or vice versa.
The criteria would be the kicker, but I think it could be worked out. As an example, if you win two championships in five years, or if you are in the quarterfinals or higher for three of five years, you move up. If you fail to make the playoffs for three years you move down. Obviously, the criteria would be subject to debate, and should be subject to revision after it is implemented based on results.
And I think the criteria should be applied separately to each sport. I know that might cause a lot of problems, but if the goal is to be competitive, that's the only way it would work.
Quote from: PA Dad on April 14, 2017, 11:29:13 am
If the goal is to arrange classifications so that they are most competitive, I favor a strictly success based system. The socioeconomic factors are important, but you could have a rich school which performs poorly in football or vice versa.
The criteria would be the kicker, but I think it could be worked out. As an example, if you win two championships in five years, or if you are in the quarterfinals or higher for three of five years, you move up. If you fail to make the playoffs for three years you move down. Obviously, the criteria would be subject to debate, and should be subject to revision after it is implemented based on results.
And I think the criteria should be applied separately to each sport. I know that might cause a lot of problems, but if the goal is to be competitive, that's the only way it would work.
Any system involving the success method would have to be sport specific. So you don't think socioeconomic factors combined with success advancement would work? You're more a fan of the straight success advancement?
If so, what about the Rhode Island method? The formula used by Rhode Island consists of 70% winning percentage over the past 8 years, 10% winning percentage over the previous three years, and 20% enrollment. The winning percentages are weighted by division. Essentially, a win against a higher division opponent is worth more than a win against a lower division opponent. They put this into a formula to determine where to classify each team.
This thread has taken a very productive turn, focusing on real alternatives t uho our current system. As MX... and PAdad know, I believe the socio-economic factor should be considered, since I believe it to be a large factor in the potential private school success. I would add that this discussion will become more relevant considering a voucher/charter friendly conservative state/national legislature which will likely lead to additional and additionally successful private and charter schools who understand the benefit to students and to enrollment increases based, in part, on successful sports programs.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on April 14, 2017, 12:05:33 pm
This thread has taken a very productive turn, focusing on real alternatives t uho our current system. As MX... and PAdad know, I believe the socio-economic factor should be considered, since I believe it to be a large factor in the potential private school success. I would add that this discussion will become more relevant considering a voucher/charter friendly conservative state/national legislature which will likely lead to additional and additionally successful private and charter schools who understand the benefit to students and to enrollment increases based, in part, on successful sports programs.
Wasn't sure if you were still around on the boards or not! I agree about how relevant this will become, which is why the AAA needs to get ahead of it and start thinking about how to redo the classifications. I think Oklahoma has some good things in their rule. Sure, it's a lot more work. But it would be worth it in the long run.
Quote from: MDXPHD on April 14, 2017, 11:35:18 am
Any system involving the success method would have to be sport specific. So you don't think socioeconomic factors combined with success advancement would work? You're more a fan of the straight success advancement?
If so, what about the Rhode Island method? The formula used by Rhode Island consists of 70% winning percentage over the past 8 years, 10% winning percentage over the previous three years, and 20% enrollment. The winning percentages are weighted by division. Essentially, a win against a higher division opponent is worth more than a win against a lower division opponent. They put this into a formula to determine where to classify each team.
I'm not sure I understand all of the ins and outs of that system, but based on what I think I understand, I have no problem with it.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on April 14, 2017, 12:05:33 pm
This thread has taken a very productive turn, focusing on real alternatives t uho our current system. As MX... and PAdad know, I believe the socio-economic factor should be considered, since I believe it to be a large factor in the potential private school success. I would add that this discussion will become more relevant considering a voucher/charter friendly conservative state/national legislature which will likely lead to additional and additionally successful private and charter schools who understand the benefit to students and to enrollment increases based, in part, on successful sports programs.
I guess my problem is I don't know how the socioeconomic factors would affect the classification of a team. If those factors contribute to a school's success, then by definition those factors are taken into account if a team is moved up because of its success.
I myself and vehemently oppose success based classification. I hate penalizing a team for winning. This whole "everyone gets a participation trophy" mentality is fostering a society of mediocrity. What I think is grossly unfair is when high school teams field a team of out of district players. It's really quite simple, Batesville, Wynne, Alma and almost everyone else is handcuffed by boundaries, PA is not. Throw everything else out the window and that fact, in and of itself tilts the field in their favor. It's plain as day. And the whole "they play football to get into Harvard" I'll address when I'm able to read or write that without bursting into laughter.
MDX and others , Interesting perspectives shared as always. It's an interesting world when we begin to look at classification ideas. I have been involved in athletics in three different states with very different systems and beliefs. I think athletics is now more important in our society than ever before. Also I want to continue seeing Arkansas High School athletics flourish in all sports throughout the state. Below are some observations about high school athletics in Arkansas. Hopefully this can provide some perspective on the discussion at hand.
I am not a supporter of the advancement system as a whole. Primarily I don't like it because it would require different classifications and conferences in each sport. Also the successful 7A schools would have no place to go. However all classification plans have their merit.
I have read the recent posts about economic factors and population etc. I would present the following facts regarding recent schools that have won championships in Arkansas.
Morrilton won a football state title being one of the smallest population schools in 5A in 2013.
Watson Chapel has won back to back state championships in girls basketball.
Junction City and Greenwood have won several state championships in football over the years.
Mills won the boys basketball state title this year as one of the smaller 5A schools in the state.
Cabot won a basketball state championship in 2016.
Shiloh Christian won a baseball state championship in 2016.
Magnolia won a baseball state title in 2016.
Fayetteville won a football state title in 2016.
Jonesboro won a basketball state title this year in 2017.
Nashville won a state title in football in football in 2015.
Vilonia won a state title in softball in 2016.
Harrison has won several girl state soccer championships.
Dequeen and Hot Springs have won soccer state championships.
Lakeside is always winning championships in golf and tennis.
I could of used other schools/sports as an example but I think this sample size shows schools from all over the state and from diverse backgrounds winning championships. In reality certain communities and schools have cultures set up for them to be successful in certain sports. Little Rock schools are traditionally very strong in basketball due to student population and urban neighborhood schools. Sylvan Hills, Benton, and Bryant are successful in baseball. They have strong youth programs and kids are raised playing baseball. Nashville and Greenwood are great in football because their kids grow up playing football and the whole town supports the program. In every state certain programs are set up for success because of their circumstances. This can be called an advantage but it's just the way it is. Communities can embrace new sports or different sports but in most cases it takes years.
Another factor in success is population base. Jonesboro schools continue to grow as some of the more rural schools in the area population dwindle. Northwest Arkansas continues to grow and so they are building larger schools. Little Rock has multiple schools and a larger amount of students to draw from than more rural areas. Also in Central Arkansas and Northwest Arkansas with the population density and the amount of schools it's an easy temptation for kids to transfer or change schools. Some schools are considered open zone or can attract kids from a greater area. However these schools also in many cases lose students as well. In more rural areas sometimes people relocate to bigger population areas due to job opportunity or to play in a bigger program. In towns like Warren kids grow up playing football together and the players are developed into successful athletes without various school options. Conway and Fayetteville haven't split their schools even though they are large and some say this is a positive. North Little Rock just merged their 9-10 and 11-12 campuses some say this is a great help in many areas. The location of a school and who is attending is the starting point for programs.
Something else to consider in a schools success is their academic offerings. Some schools have advanced placement programs that attract high achieving students into their hallways. Other schools have academies with certain focus areas which interest students in their district. Certain districts due to limitations or lack of interest cannot offer certain programs. A school with resources can attract and keep quality teachers and administrators which make a lot of things possible.
Looking back at the championship schools I mentioned above they also have a common thread. Quality coaches who lead, inspire, and direct players to be more. In most cases coaches and their staff are able to rally the town around the team and foster support in facilities and school spirit. This is no different for athletic directors or principals who develop great programs and opportunities for kids that evoke school pride and achievement. Obviously this filters down from the superintendent level. Coaching is in my opinion the greatest variable in high school athletics. Additionally a schools emphasis on athletics is important. Some school districts emphasize athletics as a whole or a certain sport more than others. This emphasis leads to staffing and overall support which should improve the school and community.
In reality I believe sports is the one place in America where people from diverse backgrounds can lay their differences aside and come together and share in competition. The essence of high school athletics is players representing their schools with pride and honor. This builds community as well as the opportunity for achievement which gives people hope. The idea of a better tomorrow is something that our country needs today more than ever.
You are quite right in your observations, Coach Taylor. Local tradition and exceptional coaching are primary drivers in specific sports success. As you may have made note in my previous comment, I stated that socio-economic factors provide the POTENTIAL private school success (inferring particular potential advantage for private school programs). My point being, given exceptional coaching and tradition, private schools most often attended by economically advantaged students have a real advantage over public schools with exceptional coaching and tradition. While I could list those advantages again, I'll assume you have read my previous posts concerning those issues.
Intelligentsia, hope all is well. Another thought regarding your post. Wouldn't you say that certain public schools due to various factors hold a resource, financial, facility, and staffing advantages over other public, private, and charterschools? Also as mentioned in my post and I think you would concur the aforementioned do not necessarily translate into wins.
There is one glaring point that has been brought up over and over again, one that those on the defense of PA's advantage refuse to answer. I am simply the most recent person to raise it. We can say it, scream it, utter it in Latin, use sign language or fly a banner behind a plane over the state. No one is willing to address it. It is actually the only black and white issue in this whole debate, it's the only issue that signifies a clear and significant advantage for private schools over public schools. It allows an obvious and unfair advantage. So for the 1,000,000th time here goes. Public schools are limited by boundaries, private schools are not. Public schools must build a team based solely on players that live in the district, private schools can draw talent from wherever they please. Imagine a cooking competition. One chef is told you can pick your food from isles' 3,4 and 5 . The other chef is told you have the entire supermarket to choose from. Who has a massive advantage ?
Quote from: JessieP on April 14, 2017, 10:41:14 pm
I myself and vehemently oppose success based classification. I hate penalizing a team for winning. This whole "everyone gets a participation trophy" mentality is fostering a society of mediocrity. What I think is grossly unfair is when high school teams field a team of out of district players. It's really quite simple, Batesville, Wynne, Alma and almost everyone else is handcuffed by boundaries, PA is not. Throw everything else out the window and that fact, in and of itself tilts the field in their favor. It's plain as day. And the whole "they play football to get into Harvard" I'll address when I'm able to read or write that without bursting into laughter.
Interestingly enough, your points here actually
support the idea of success based classification if you change your paradigm just a bit. We do not 'know' the exact and precise reasons PA has enjoyed their recent run of success and we may never know the exact formula. However, and I think PA would support this notion as well, if their football program is capable of playing at the current 6A classification, they should do exactly that.
One if the issues surrounding promotion / relegation (i.e. success based classifications) is the reality a school may have sports teams participating not only in different conferences but also different classifications depending on their success level in any given sport. Since we've focused a good bit on PA here, let's take this a step further and look at a few sports in which PA currently participates and see what could happen based on success based classifications.
Football - PA would likely be in 6A.
Basketball - PA boys have struggled at the current 5A level, but no so much as to suspect they would be relegated to 4A. Girls have enjoyed more success and would likely be in 5A still.
Volleyball - PA girls haven't broken though the current Eastern wall in 5A but if success based classifications were implemented, part (if not all) of that wall would be in 6A now.
Track - I don't recall either the boys or girls teams from PA enjoying success at the state level in 5A. 4A (or maybe even 3A) might be a better fit given PA's track strength.
Given this, it might be the case that PA would have teams in classifications as low as 3A and its high as 6A at the same time.
Why would that be a problem?
Given the frequency of change in classifications and conferences already, having a team compete at a level that better matches its talent would make for a much better athletic environment wouldn't you think?
Excellent conversation going here all!
Quote from: JessieP on April 15, 2017, 11:41:52 am
There is one glaring point that has been brought up over and over again, one that those on the defense of PA's advantage refuse to answer. I am simply the most recent person to raise it. We can say it, scream it, utter it in Latin, use sign language or fly a banner behind a plane over the state. No one is willing to address it. It is actually the only black and white issue in this whole debate, it's the only issue that signifies a clear and significant advantage for private schools over public schools. It allows an obvious and unfair advantage. So for the 1,000,000th time here goes. Public schools are limited by boundaries, private schools are not. Public schools must build a team based solely on players that live in the district, private schools can draw talent from wherever they please. Imagine a cooking competition. One chef is told you can pick your food from isles' 3,4 and . The other chef is told you have the entire supermarket to choose from. Who has a massive advantage ?
The current situation in Little Rock and Pulaski County would offer evidence to the contrary. But to be fair, that situation is not the same throughout the state either. How do you correct / adjust for the Little Rock / Pulaski County situation?
Quote from: sevenof400 on April 15, 2017, 12:21:02 pm
The current situation in Little Rock and Pulaski County would offer evidence to the contrary. But to be fair, that situation is not the same throughout the state either. How do you correct / adjust for the Little Rock / Pulaski County situation?
I am not aware of the Little Rock/Pulaski County situation. I don't mean defiantly, I am ignorant to the facts in that case. Are schools in Little Rock not subject to boundaries ?
Quote from: JessieP on April 15, 2017, 03:57:26 pm
I am not aware of the Little Rock/Pulaski County situation. I don't mean defiantly, I am ignorant to the facts in that case. Are schools in Little Rock not subject to boundaries ?
Kids in pcssd and little rock seemingly move around at will...
Quote from: JessieP on April 15, 2017, 03:57:26 pm
I am not aware of the Little Rock/Pulaski County situation. I don't mean defiantly, I am ignorant to the facts in that case. Are schools in Little Rock not subject to boundaries ?
Within the various school systems in Pulaski County, there are a number of ways kids seem to start at one district and then move elsewhere. Magnet schools, and majority to minority transfers are two mechanisms that have been used to move from one school district to another. Much (if not all of this) is a result of the various decisions involved with the many desegregation cases over the years.
Transfers like these are not universally available to all public school students in Arkansas so here is another factor which serves to imbalance schools.
Quote from: sevenof400 on April 15, 2017, 07:42:47 pm
Within the various school systems in Pulaski County, there are a number of ways kids seem to start at one district and then move elsewhere. Magnet schools, and majority to minority transfers are two mechanisms that have been used to move from one school district to another. Much (if not all of this) is a result of the various decisions involved with the many desegregation cases over the years.
Transfers like these are not universally available to all public school students in Arkansas so here is another factor which serves to imbalance schools.
Are they immediately eligible for extra curricular (football) activities ? is there no waiting period ? exactly how loose is the AAA on rules ?
Quote from: JessieP on April 15, 2017, 11:41:52 am
There is one glaring point that has been brought up over and over again, one that those on the defense of PA's advantage refuse to answer. I am simply the most recent person to raise it. We can say it, scream it, utter it in Latin, use sign language or fly a banner behind a plane over the state. No one is willing to address it. It is actually the only black and white issue in this whole debate, it's the only issue that signifies a clear and significant advantage for private schools over public schools. It allows an obvious and unfair advantage. So for the 1,000,000th time here goes. Public schools are limited by boundaries, private schools are not. Public schools must build a team based solely on players that live in the district, private schools can draw talent from wherever they please. Imagine a cooking competition. One chef is told you can pick your food from isles' 3,4 and 5 . The other chef is told you have the entire supermarket to choose from. Who has a massive advantage ?
Jessie, The following is my response to your statement. Do what you will with this information. After 7th grade a student cannot transfer immediately to a private school and be eligible if they live within a 25 mile radius of the school. A student that lives outside the 25 mile radius of the school can only become immediately eligible after 7th grade if they make a bonafide move of address inside the 25 mile radius. I presume the AAA uses 7th grade because most schools transition at that grade to other schools. Any transfer both public and private is regulated by the AAA and must be done by July 1. A student can always leave a private/magnet school and return to their school of zone and play the next semester. In the public sector if a student provides their own transportation for 365 days they are eligible to play the next year regardless of their address. However as you probably know if a student's family moves their address into a school district then they can play for that school. Certain school districts participate in the school of choice programs which allow students within a county to attend any school in the county regardless of zone. Also some public schools due to their academic programs or certain extracurricular activities can gain students out of their attendance zone who participate in those programs. Also in the past with desegregation students were bused all over Little Rock for various reasons however this is now over. As we all know players transfer from district to district for various reasons every year throughout the state. In the end parents and students must do what they feel is best for their scholastic experience. I hope this provides clarity on your statement. I did skim over the AAA regulations regarding transfers before typing this. All the information is on the website if you care to research for your self. Also I am not exactly sure where charter schools fall in some of the regulations.
Quote from: CoachTaylorPA on April 15, 2017, 07:27:30 am
Intelligentsia, hope all is well. Another thought regarding your post. Wouldn't you say that certain public schools due to various factors hold a resource, financial, facility, and staffing advantages over other public, private, and charterschools? Also as mentioned in my post and I think you would concur the aforementioned do not necessarily translate into wins.
Coach Taylor, It is certainly possible for a public school to realize the advantages you mention, and while not ensuring success, would make it more likely, and likely does so in many of the most successful school sports programs, public or private. Those issues are not what I am addressing, however. My issue is with the potential advantage for private schools made possible by the socio-economic advantages of the student/family. If necessary, I can go into the nature of those advantages and their impact, an impact that, all other thing equal (coaching, facilities, tradition, support), will tip the scale in favor of the private school.
Quote from: JessieP on April 15, 2017, 08:54:31 pm
Are they immediately eligible for extra curricular (football) activities ? is there no waiting period ? exactly how loose is the AAA on rules ?
It is my understanding that students who use these transfer methods ARE immediately eligible for athletics - as long as the students comply with the requirements of the transfer program (Majority to Minority, Magnet Schools, etc).
Quote from: sevenof400 on April 16, 2017, 07:47:45 am
It is my understanding that students who use these transfer methods ARE immediately eligible for athletics - as long as the students comply with the requirements of the transfer program (Majority to Minority, Magnet Schools, etc).
Have they changed the rules?? The AAA rules did state that if an Athlete transfers from one school to another after they begin their Junior year without making a bonafied move into the new district, they were not eligible for extracurricular activities during their Senior year.
Quote from: CoachTaylorPA on April 14, 2017, 10:50:39 pm
I have read the recent posts about economic factors and population etc. I would present the following facts regarding recent schools that have won championships in Arkansas.
Morrilton won a football state title being one of the smallest population schools in 5A in 2013.
Watson Chapel has won back to back state championships in girls basketball.
Junction City and Greenwood have won several state championships in football over the years.
Mills won the boys basketball state title this year as one of the smaller 5A schools in the state.
Cabot won a basketball state championship in 2016.
Shiloh Christian won a baseball state championship in 2016.
Magnolia won a baseball state title in 2016.
Fayetteville won a football state title in 2016.
Jonesboro won a basketball state title this year in 2017.
Nashville won a state title in football in football in 2015.
Vilonia won a state title in softball in 2016.
Harrison has won several girl state soccer championships.
Dequeen and Hot Springs have won soccer state championships.
Lakeside is always winning championships in golf and tennis.
Sure, any number schools can get a great class or two of players coming through and win a title or maybe even two, but what other school with a small enrollment can match all of these titles? Just a good run of players the past 20-30 years I guess? ::)
Girls Tennis (14x): 1980–2013 including 1980, 1987, 1988, 1989, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2010, 2013
Boys Tennis (11x): 1981–2013 including 1981, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2011, 2012, 2013
Baseball (5x): 1993, 1994, 2002, 2003, 2013 5A
Girls Soccer (6x): 2003–2012
Boys Soccer (3x): 2000, 2001, 2007
Football (6x): (2003 3A), (2008 5A), (2011 4A) (2014 5A), (2015 5A), (2016 5A)
Boys Basketball (2x): 2002, 2003
All Golf Team (5x) : 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006
Quote from: CoachTaylorPA on April 15, 2017, 11:16:44 pm
Jessie, The following is my response to your statement. Do what you will with this information. After 7th grade a student cannot transfer immediately to a private school and be eligible if they live within a 25 mile radius of the school. A student that lives outside the 25 mile radius of the school can only become immediately eligible after 7th grade if they make a bonafide move of address inside the 25 mile radius. I presume the AAA uses 7th grade because most schools transition at that grade to other schools. Any transfer both public and private is regulated by the AAA and must be done by July 1. A student can always leave a private/magnet school and return to their school of zone and play the next semester. In the public sector if a student provides their own transportation for 365 days they are eligible to play the next year regardless of their address. However as you probably know if a student's family moves their address into a school district then they can play for that school. Certain school districts participate in the school of choice programs which allow students within a county to attend any school in the county regardless of zone. Also some public schools due to their academic programs or certain extracurricular activities can gain students out of their attendance zone who participate in those programs. Also in the past with desegregation students were bused all over Little Rock for various reasons however this is now over. As we all know players transfer from district to district for various reasons every year throughout the state. In the end parents and students must do what they feel is best for their scholastic experience. I hope this provides clarity to the situation. I did skim over the AAA regulations regarding transfers before typing this. All the information is on the website if you care to research for your self. Also I am not exactly sure where charter schools fall in some of the regulations.
A 15 mile radius ? possibly a 25 mile radius ? are you kidding me ? you don't find that a massive totally unfair advantage ? it took me 2 day's to get my information in order. Wynne, Batesville, Blytheville, Forrest City and Alma were the schools I looked at. Every one of those schools gets 97% of it's student from a 7 mile radius, 77% of those are within a 4 mile radius. Less then .01% of the students in all 5 schools has traveled 25 miles. The defense of a 15 mile radius does not favor PA in this debate it is exhibit A for those who oppose their policy. If you factor in the population density of Little Rock compared to the 5 other schools the numbers become more glaring. The 25 mile radius leaves one conclusion, the same one people have been complaining about for 10 years. Public schools field teams stocked with players that live nearby, PA has a virtual all-star team.
Quote from: JessieP on April 17, 2017, 01:39:33 pm
A 15 mile radius ? possibly a 25 mile radius ? are you kidding me ? you don't find that a massive totally unfair advantage ? it took me 2 day's to get my information in order. Wynne, Batesville, Blytheville, Forrest City and Alma were the schools I looked at. Every one of those schools gets 97% of it's student from a 7 mile radius, 77% of those are within a 4 mile radius. Less then .01% of the students in all 5 schools has traveled 25 miles. The defense of a 15 mile radius does not favor PA in this debate it is exhibit A for those who oppose their policy. If you factor in the population density of Little Rock compared to the 5 other schools the numbers become more glaring. The 25 mile radius leaves one conclusion, the same one people have been complaining about for 10 years. Public schools field teams stocked with players that live nearby, PA has a virtual all-star team.
Exactly. A 25 mile radius includes, Bryant, Benton, Jacksonville, Cabot, Maumelle and Conway. Several of those places are within a 15 mile radius.
We all KNOW it's a virtual all-star team, but it's hilarious to hear the PA defenders bend over backwards trying to say it's not.
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 17, 2017, 02:16:41 pm
Exactly. A 25 mile radius includes, Bryant, Benton, Jacksonville, Cabot, Maumelle and Conway. Several of those places are within a 15 mile radius.
We all KNOW it's a virtual all-star team, but it's hilarious to hear the PA defenders bend over backwards trying to say it's not.
Sugartown, as the debate goes on and on the PA defenders are quite adept at presenting points that support their argument. When I read the "25 mile" radius point I knew then the unfair advantage was no longer a point of debate, it's an iron clad fact.
Quote from: JessieP on April 17, 2017, 02:32:05 pm
Sugartown, as the debate goes on and on the PA defenders are quite adept at presenting points that support their argument. When I read the "25 mile" radius point I knew then the unfair advantage was no longer a point of debate, it's an iron clad fact.
That, and the fact that they've had more football players go on to play at the college level recently than any school their size (and it's not even close) and more than likely any school in Arkansas regardless of classification.
Personally, I know exactly who and what that school is and I don't have a big problem with it, but it gets monotonous to hear them go on and on like they're not that much different than any other public school when we all know that's not the case.
Quote from: JessieP on April 14, 2017, 10:41:14 pm
I myself and vehemently oppose success based classification. I hate penalizing a team for winning. This whole "everyone gets a participation trophy" mentality is fostering a society of mediocrity. What I think is grossly unfair is when high school teams field a team of out of district players. It's really quite simple, Batesville, Wynne, Alma and almost everyone else is handcuffed by boundaries, PA is not. Throw everything else out the window and that fact, in and of itself tilts the field in their favor. It's plain as day. And the whole "they play football to get into Harvard" I'll address when I'm able to read or write that without bursting into laughter.
More kids on last year's PA team will likely end up playing in the Ivy League than every other high school in the state combined. One player from last year's team will play in the Ivy League next year and others were offered. I believe 4 players on this year's team have been offered by Ivy League schools. Given the average rate of admissions, playing football for PA is the quickest route to an Ivy League education in the state of Arkansas.
Thank you Red Devil Alum for the Ivy League statistics. I know that one of next year's players that has gotten several Ivy League offers has a 31 or better on his ACT and a GPA above 4.0. Those are the numbers that matter before an Ivy League school even looks at whether the student played football. JessieP can laugh all he wants, but what I said is true. Parents send their kids to PA for the educational opportunities. PA had 8 National Merit Semifinalists last year. ESC and LRCC had two each. Wynne had one. Many of the kids become active in extracurricular activities that can be the deciding factor in whether or not they get accepted at a school like Harvard. Some of the kids play football as their activity. I think a lot of kids are getting the last laugh.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter. The chest thumping and self promotion of the PA fans on this site are pretty standard talking points. They must have parents meetings. The funny thing though is that this is a football site. Put aside all the other pointless claims made by the Bruin backers, we are all very impressed that IVY League recruiters get into fistfights in the parking lot over who gets the jet fuel geniuses at PA. We all get it, the smartest kids in America go to PA. Let's try and steer this back to football. PA fields an all-star team, other schools field students that are bound by their address. It is painfully obvious that PA's fans and backers are perfectly fine knowing they have won with a stacked deck. I guess the one thing they don't emphasize there is winning with honor. It's a hypothetical point but at the end of the day everyone who follows Arkansas high school football knows that if you applies the same residence boundaries to PA as you do to the public schools in the 5A Wynne would have defeated Batesville in last years title game. PA would have been knocked out in round 2. Funny thing is that the objective evaluators of high school football in the United States know it too. Bishop Gorman, Plano East, Crenshaw, Mater Dei, Long Beach Poly, Miami Dade and many others, the elite, you never see PA on that list. There are schools with even lower enrollments that you do. I know they look at Arkansas because Springdale made it once. So I guess PA's well financed pr machine isn't fooling the National Media. I just wish Arkansas would let the kids decide who's best, even the playing field and let the best team win. David Robinson was being ask if winning the gold medal with the Dream Team was a bigger thrill then winning the NBA finals. He said "No, not at all. Winning the finals was a team effort. The Dream Team was an all-star team. The sense of pride is no where near the same. All-Star teams are expected to win".
Quote from: JessieP on April 17, 2017, 06:42:03 pm
At the end of the day it doesn't matter. The chest thumping and self promotion of the PA fans on this site are pretty standard talking points. They must have parents meetings. The funny thing though is that this is a football site. Put aside all the other pointless claims made by the Bruin backers, we are all very impressed that IVY League recruiters get into fistfights in the parking lot over who gets the jet fuel geniuses at PA. We all get it, the smartest kids in America go to PA. Let's try and steer this back to football. PA fields an all-star team, other schools field students that are bound by their address. It is painfully obvious that PA's fans and backers are perfectly fine knowing they have won with a stacked deck. I guess the one thing they don't emphasize there is winning with honor. It's a hypothetical point but at the end of the day everyone who follows Arkansas high school football knows that if you applies the same residence boundaries to PA as you do to the public schools in the 5A Wynne would have defeated Batesville in last years title game. PA would have been knocked out in round 2. Funny thing is that the objective evaluators of high school football in the United States know it too. Bishop Gorman, Plano East, Crenshaw, Mater Dei, Long Beach Poly, Miami Dade and many others, the elite, you never see PA on that list. There are schools with even lower enrollments that you do. I know they look at Arkansas because Springdale made it once. So I guess PA's well financed pr machine isn't fooling the National Media. I just wish Arkansas would let the kids decide who's best, even the playing field and let the best team win. David Robinson was being ask if winning the gold medal with the Dream Team was a bigger thrill then winning the NBA finals. He said "No, not at all. Winning the finals was a team effort. The Dream Team was an all-star team. The sense of pride is no where near the same. All-Star teams are expected to win".
Man, that makes no sense at all.
You ask for reasons why good football players would go to PA other than recruiting, and are told because of academics. To that you scoff, and say let's get back to football (and seem to snicker at the thought that PA kids are going to Ivy League schools in highly disproportionate numbers.)
You call PA an "all-star" team even though you yourself said that the talent level at PA was so low that they can't be recruiting.
No one from PA has denied that we have advantages. They aren't from recruiting, but we have advantages. If you want to limit PA geographically, let's truly make it apples to apples and make Wynne and others charge their students $6,000 - $12,000 a year. Let's see if that changes the championship.
By the way, every school you listed as an attendance far larger than PA.
Some of these posts just make me laugh.
The 25 mile radius rule for transfer into privates is one of the most misunderstood rules as most of the previous posts indicate. 25 miles is not the size of the school district it is the minimum distance that a student must live from the private school in order to be eligible if they make a bona fide move within 25 miles of the school. A prominent public coach once recommended the distance be changed to 5 miles to "reduce the size of the private school attendance zone" which would have allowed transfers from as little as five miles away to move within the now "smaller" district and be eligible. If you want to stop transfers to Little Rock privates enlarge the 25 mile radius to 200 miles, no student within the borders of Arkansas would live outside a 200 mile radius and even it they moved next door to a LR private they would have to sit out 365 days because they did not live outside the "largest school districts in the world". The 25 mile radius is not the size of the school district. It is a distance test applied to "bona fide moves" that limits eligibility, the larger the radius the greater the limitation, the smaller the radius the smaller the limitation.
The belief that privates have a 25 mile radius as an attendance zone is incorrect. If they did a student living within that attendance zone could transfer to the private without moving since they already live "within" the district and be eligible...they cannot until they sit for 365 days and establish residence.
The AAA handbook can be found at: http://members.ahsaa.org/public/userfiles/Admin/2016-17_AAA_Handbook_abs.pdf (eligibility rules begin on page 36, the 25 mile rule is on page 40, section J 1 b.
I understand what you're saying about changing the radius to make it larger, but that just won't happen. Otherwise, you would just do away with the radius.
I think the chief complaint is that it's easier to make a bona fide move into the 25 mile radius to gain immediate eligibility as compared to public schools, who must make a bona fide move into the schools district. Parents wanting to send kids to a little rock private school have several more options for jobs in multiple towns, but transferring to a public school would limit those parents to living only within that district for immediate eligibility. It's a little problem, but not as much as the others addressed throughout this thread.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on April 17, 2017, 08:07:57 pm
Man, that makes no sense at all.
You ask for reasons why good football players would go to PA other than recruiting, and are told because of academics. To that you scoff, and say let's get back to football (and seem to snicker at the thought that PA kids are going to Ivy League schools in highly disproportionate numbers.)
You call PA an "all-star" team even though you yourself said that the talent level at PA was so low that they can't be recruiting.
No one from PA has denied that we have advantages. They aren't from recruiting, but we have advantages. If you want to limit PA geographically, let's truly make it apples to apples and make Wynne and others charge their students $6,000 - $12,000 a year. Let's see if that changes the championship.
By the way, every school you listed as an attendance far larger than PA.
Come on Red Devil, To the players on the Pulaski Academy football team, academics is merely a side benefit. The main reason they go to PA is to play football in hopes of getting a D1 football scholarship. I submit that if the AAA separated the Private schools from the Public Schools and barred the Private schools from playing against public schools, Pulaski Academy's football program would dwindle to almost nothing pretty quickly as players would leave for public schools and their famous head coach would jump ship for another job at the first opportunity.
Quote from: GuvHog on April 18, 2017, 12:07:26 pm
Come on Red Devil, To the players on the Pulaski Academy football team, academics is merely a side benefit. The main reason they go to PA is to play football in hopes of getting a D1 football scholarship. I submit that if the AAA separated the Private schools from the Public Schools and barred the Private schools from playing against public schools, Pulaski Academy's football program would dwindle to almost nothing pretty quickly as players would leave for public schools and their famous head coach would jump ship for another job at the first opportunity.
The first two sentences of your post are nonsense. I mean, you make a lot of stuff up, but this is next level head up your butt level.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on April 18, 2017, 04:34:26 pm
The first two sentences of your post are nonsense. I mean, you make a lot of stuff up, but this is next level head up your butt level.
Red Devil Alum, when you don't have facts or a cohesive counterpoint resort to name calling. What line in that post set you off ? they really hit a nerve with you. I'll make this point again, I keep repeating it because none of the PA backers will respond to it. Hmm, I wonder why ?
Take a 6.1 mile radius, the average distance of the boundaries for Wynne, Batesville, Alma, Blytheville, Forrest City, Watson Chapel and Hope, and make that PA's imaginary boundary. No one outside that radius could play football. Now, how good would they be ? all of the sudden that great coached unbeatable Harvard pipeline looks very average. Wow, what a concept, making PA play under the same rules as everybody else.
The problem is not very few schools play by those rules...especially in the Greater LR area... where SEVERAL public school kids have played for MULTIPLE public schools in consecutive years...a point I have made in several posts, that many of the pro banning PA bashers won't comment on...
Quote from: STBruin on April 18, 2017, 05:52:38 pm
The problem is not very few schools play by those rules...especially in the Greater LR area... where SEVERAL public school kids have played for MULTIPLE public schools in consecutive years...a point I have made in several posts, that many of the pro banning PA bashers won't comment on...
I'll gladly comment on it. It is not exclusive to PA. Many kids bounce around for many reasons. It could be a family move or even something as petty as the Mom didn't like the coach. Big difference, those are isolated cases that happen to one school one year and another school another year. The out of area players are PA's bread and butter. Probably less the 25% of the football team lives within a 6 mile radius. Having examples of a few players transferring does not compare with a program where "don't live in the district" makes up the vast majority of the team. Would you compare the gang fight at Park Plaza Mall last year to the LA riots ?
Quote from: JessieP on April 18, 2017, 05:45:30 pm
Red Devil Alum, when you don't have facts or a cohesive counterpoint resort to name calling. What line in that post set you off ? they really hit a nerve with you. I'll make this point again, I keep repeating it because none of the PA backers will respond to it. Hmm, I wonder why ?
Take a 6.1 mile radius, the average distance of the boundaries for Wynne, Batesville, Alma, Blytheville, Forrest City, Watson Chapel and Hope, and make that PA's imaginary boundary. No one outside that radius could play football. Now, how good would they be ? all of the sudden that great coached unbeatable Harvard pipeline looks very average. Wow, what a concept, making PA play under the same rules as everybody else.
Because it was so dumb. PA is not some athletic factory where kids show up and get D1 scholarships. The vast majority that get scholarships get them from high academic schools. You laugh at the Ivy League offers, but they are real.
I'll ask you the same question. Any student that plays football at Wynne, Batesville, etc. also has to pay $6,000 - $12,000 per year for 6 plus years. How many championships do those schools win?
Jessie, I hope all is well. I responded to the following of your post which is bolded. Here is one glaring point that has been brought up over and over again, one that those on the defense of PA's advantage refuse to answer. I am simply the most recent person to raise it. We can say it, scream it, utter it in Latin, use sign language or fly a banner behind a plane over the state. No one is willing to address it. It is actually the only black and white issue in this whole debate, it's the only issue that signifies a clear and significant advantage for private schools over public schools. It allows an obvious and unfair advantage. So for the 1,000,000th time here goes. Public schools are limited by boundaries, private schools are not. Public schools must build a team based solely on players that live in the district, private schools can draw talent from wherever they please. Imagine a cooking competition. One chef is told you can pick your food from isles' 3,4 and . The other chef is told you have the entire supermarket to choose from. Who has a massive advantage ?
In this post you state that private schools can draw talent from wherever they please. Also you state private schools are not limited by boundaries. The AAA rules show otherwise. I probably did a poor job in my explanation by making the following point. The 25 miles radius is not the size of a school zone. What the radius means is if a student lives within a 25 miles radius of a private school they cannot attend a private school without sitting out a year after July 1st before the start of 7th grade. In a previous post I outlined that the overwhelming majority of our players have been at our school since 6th grade or earlier. As a side note the radius is not based on road miles. Thus someone can live 25 road miles away and still be in the radius and have to sit out or be ineligible. I hope I did a better job of explaining the regulations. Also certain public schools can accept students that do not live within their attendance zone for a variety of reasons. Magnet schools and charter schools both fall into those categories that some would call open zone. However I am sure those schools have certain academic or scholastic requirements. I hope this provides a clearer perspective on the issue at hand. Also you stated that less 15 percent of our players live within 6 miles of the school.
We have without a doubt MORE than 15% of our players living within 6 miles of the school.
Quote from: CoachTaylorPA on April 18, 2017, 10:07:04 pm
In this post you state that private schools can draw talent from wherever they please. Also you state private schools are not limited by boundaries. The AAA rules show otherwise. I probably did a poor job in my explanation by making the following point. The 25 miles radius is not the size of a school zone. What the radius means is if a student lives within a 25 miles radius of a private school they cannot attend a private school without sitting out a year after July 1st before the start of 7th grade. In a previous post I outlined that the overwhelming majority of our players have been at our school since 6th grade or earlier. As a side note the radius is not based on road miles. Thus someone can live 25 road miles away and still be in the radius and have to sit out or be ineligible. I hope I did a better job of explaining the regulations. Also certain public schools can accept students that do not live within their attendance zone for a variety of reasons. Magnet schools and charter schools both fall into those categories that some would call open zone. However I am sure those schools have certain academic or scholastic requirements. I hope this provides a clearer perspective on the issue at hand. Also you stated that less 15 percent of our players live within 6 miles of the school.
We have without a doubt MORE than 15% of our players living within 6 miles of the school.
Here's the rule in question:
2. After July 1 prior to entering the 7th grade year, a student whose parents live outside a 25-mile radius of a nonpublic school must make a bona fide move within a 25-mile radius of the school that the student will attend to become eligible.The way I read it, it looks as if someone could move from Searcy to Cabot for example and be eligible to play at PA, or from Hot Springs to Bryant and be eligible to play at PA without sitting out.
But it they moved from Searcy to Cabot they couldn't go to Lonoke and play as their parents live in the Cabot school district.
So it appears as long as they MOVE into the 25 mile radius they don't have to sit out a year. Now, I'm not saying PA has a bunch of players that have done that, but your statement about the 25 mile radius NOT being a school zone is a bit misleading.
If any of the doubters would attend the Academic Awards assembly at the end of each school year, you'd realize that PA is about academics first and foremost, even for the majority of the athletes. But since all most of you think about when you think of PA is their football success, you just can't allow yourselves to believe that football is not the top priority of the school.
Success on the football field at PA happens because of commitment, hard work, and great coaching. It has nothing to do with the alleged hand-picking of athletes.
Jessie - you are correct. If PA had to field a team from a 6-mile radius, that would certainly limit their success. On the other hand - if the entire student population who lives within a 6-mile radius of the school attended PA (assuming it was public rather than private), the overall athletic potential of the football team would grow ten-fold. There are an awful lot of incredibly talented high school athletes who live within 6 miles of PA, but most of them go to other schools.
what schools do they go to?
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on April 27, 2017, 10:26:21 pm
what schools do they go to?
I have no idea of the complete list, but Robinson and Maumelle would be a couple of the main ones. Central would be another.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on April 27, 2017, 10:26:21 pm
what schools do they go to?
Did a little more looking at the map. Many people may not realize that PA is not very deep into West Little Rock. It is very close to I-430. It's only 9.5 miles from downtown Little Rock (driving)... even closer "as the crow flies." So public high schools that would have a lot of students within 6 miles of PA would include:
Robinson
Maumelle
Central
Parkview
Hall
J.A. Fair
Quote from: MB Hog on April 27, 2017, 03:19:08 pm
Jessie - you are correct. If PA had to field a team from a 6-mile radius, that would certainly limit their success. On the other hand - if the entire student population who lives within a 6-mile radius of the school attended PA (assuming it was public rather than private), the overall athletic potential of the football team would grow ten-fold. There are an awful lot of incredibly talented high school athletes who live within 6 miles of PA, but most of them go to other schools.
Actually if PA wasn't private then it wouldn't exist as there would be no need for a public school in that area. So your premise here doesn't work. Try again.
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 08:05:49 am
Actually if PA wasn't private then it wouldn't exist as there would be no need for a public school in that area. So your premise here doesn't work. Try again.
Actually... you can't have it both ways. The point from Jessie is that PA wouldn't be very good at football (and probably most sports in general) if it had to pull all of its students from a 6-mile radius. And he is correct... IF PA is limited to having students/players from within 6 miles who can also afford to attend the school and/or want to pay for it. Even with financial aid, the cost to the students' families is substantial.
So that is exactly the point... student attendance at PA is not limited by radius, but it IS limited by cost. Jessie is trying to make an apples-to-apples comparison that it is unfair for PA to be able to have students attend from further away, but he is not accounting for the fact that the majority of students available to PA within a small radius can't afford to go there or just choose not to pay for school when a free education is available in public school.
I guess in Jessie's world (and yours), PA can get students from wherever they want as long as all the athletes live within 6 miles of the school. Does that sound about right?
To go ahead and take the words out of the mouths of Jessie and others, you might clarify that this controversy is only limited to those athletes who get some sort of financial aid to attend PA. That you are OK with PA expanding their boundaries beyond 6 miles for any athlete who is paying 100% of his/her own way.
To that I would say:
1) That is discriminatory towards those who want to go to PA (and happen to play sports), but can't afford to pay the full tuition
2) Everyone who goes to public school is getting a form of financial assistance since the funding for those schools comes from everyone's tax dollars, regardless of whether they have students in school or not
All that said... I'm sure you will find plenty of ways to disagree with me, and that is fine. I've given my point of view. You don't have to agree, because I certainly don't expect to be able to change your mind. But maybe this will make sense to some of the others who are on the fence about it.
Aren't most of PA's student body within a 6-mile radius of the school anyway? A six-mile radius north and west of the school is the most affluent area in Little Rock, and I would think that most of the families that send their kids to PA are from those neighborhoods. The ones that don't go to PA are at LRC or Baptist, with maybe a few that attend Catholic or Episcopal.
The point of this whole thread IMO is that private schools don't have to play by the same rules as public schools when it comes to where they get their students from...and this should not even be debatable. But everywhere you look someone is trying to say that it's not like that.
I'm not one to whine and cry about it, it is what it is and we all have to deal with it, I just wish the private school folks would admit it and stop claiming they don't have certain advantages over public schools when we all know they do.
If there was no advantage (not necessarily talking athletics, but just to the student overall) then there would be no private schools. Whether it be for religious freedoms, academic focus, etc. the whole point of a private school is to provide something that a public school cannot. Therefore there is an inherent advantage for the student that chooses to go there for whatever the reason.
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 10:52:33 am
The point of this whole thread IMO is that private schools don't have to play by the same rules as public schools when it comes to where they get their students from...and this should not even be debatable. But everywhere you look someone is trying to say that it's not like that.
I'm not one to whine and cry about it, it is what it is and we all have to deal with it, I just wish the private school folks would admit it and stop claiming they don't have certain advantages over public schools when we all know they do.
It would be interesting to go back through this thread and count exactly how many times a PA supporter has admitted there are advantages. My guess on the over / under is 47.
Quote from: MB Hog on April 28, 2017, 11:01:52 am
It would be interesting to go back through this thread and count exactly how many times a PA supporter has admitted there are advantages. My guess on the over / under is 47.
I'll take the under. There aren't 47 PA posters on this entire board.
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 11:07:52 am
I'll take the under. There aren't 47 PA posters on this entire board.
I didn't say how many posters... I said how many times. Several of us have reiterated that point multiple times, but then we still get the "I just wish someone from PA would admit there are advantages" battle cry.
After making this admission yet again, we start talking about other points in the discussion until... here it comes again... "I just wish someone from PA would admit there are advantages!"
What? Again? Fine, there are some advantages.
PA has nice facilities, good fan support, good coaches, etc. It helps them play better football, but
none of that turns Jaren Watkins into Darren McFadden.
As with any school, PA does have a few special athletes, but the majority are average athletes who work very hard and are well-coached. Very few would catch your eye at the mall like elite athletes do.
At the moment, PA enjoys a big advantage in football because of a great coach and a unique system currently in place. That won't last forever. But the advantages that PA will always have, that will be the main attraction to the school are a family atmosphere and a top-notch education. That's why most of the families who send their kids to PA do so... sports is secondary to most of the student body. And for those that are there first and foremost for football, they are still required to give attention to their education if they want to stay at PA.
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 11:07:52 am
I'll take the under. There aren't 47 PA posters on this entire board.
I'm a "PA poster" and have said at least 5 times in this thread that PA has certain inherent advantages that assist at football.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on April 28, 2017, 01:13:57 pm
I'm a "PA poster" and have said at least 5 times in this thread that PA has certain inherent advantages that assist at football.
Ok, so that's 3 of you that's said it. Doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still only 3 people. And if you folks agree about the advantages why is this thread 20 pages long? If you all agree then I guess this thread should be over.
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 01:21:52 pm
Ok, so that's 3 of you that's said it. Doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still only 3 people. And if you folks agree about the advantages why is this thread 20 pages long? If you all agree then I guess this thread should be over.
I'm good with that. As I said, I've given my opinion. I don't expect you to ever agree with it.
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 01:21:52 pm
Ok, so that's 3 of you that's said it. Doesn't matter how many times you say it, it's still only 3 people. And if you folks agree about the advantages why is this thread 20 pages long? If you all agree then I guess this thread should be over.
Because some on here say that PA recruits, and that's false. But this thread is 20 pages long largely from non-PA posts - not PA posters.
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on April 28, 2017, 10:52:33 am
The point of this whole thread IMO is that private schools don't have to play by the same rules as public schools when it comes to where they get their students from...and this should not even be debatable. But everywhere you look someone is trying to say that it's not like that.
I'm not one to whine and cry about it, it is what it is and we all have to deal with it, I just wish the private school folks would admit it and stop claiming they don't have certain advantages over public schools when we all know they do.
OK - so I can't resist making one last note. You mentioned above that the point of this whole thread is about private schools not playing by the same rules as public schools when it comes to where they get their students.
I went back to the original couple of posts from MDXPHD to see what the "point of the whole thread" was at the start. Here is a quote from MDXPHD:
"My point is really this: Yes, we have all agreed that private schools have advantages over public schools in different ways. But, the advantage doesn't make them unstoppable (except for girls soccer, apparently)."MDXPHD started this thread showing a bunch on numbers that indicate private schools in Arkansas don't actually do that much better in sports, including football, other than soccer. I don't see anywhere in the original point of the post where it questions where private school get their students. The conversation eventually morphed to that discussion topic, but that was not the original point of the post.
There is an awful lot of confusion. I can't speak to the initial thrust of this thread or other peoples opinion. I can only speak to my point. I've been accused of changing my views, on some issue's I have, but overall my point is the same. Disagree or not let me clarify/reiterate my point.
People say PA wins because of hard work, great coaching and committed players. True, that is why any team on any sport wins. That in and of itself is not why PA has been so dominant. They also have a massive advantage of no limit boundaries. It very simple, there is no debate. When PA takes the field against any Public school team it is not apples to apples. Let me ask this again, if PA was limited to the same land mass area as Batesville or Wynne and had no financial aid would they be as dominant ? 100% no!
I agree with the points other people make, it's about academics or parents right to chose. That's fine. Just stop trying to sell us this "great system, coaches, work ethic" BS. No one outside PA buys it. It's just not true. If you took Kelly, King, Paschel, Hill and their entire staffs. Had them switch schools every year for 4 years. They implemented their system and entire program wherever they went. Who would win it all ? PA. The advantages are too much to consistently overcome.
Quote from: JessieP on April 28, 2017, 07:17:02 pm
There is an awful lot of confusion. I can't speak to the initial thrust of this thread or other peoples opinion. I can only speak to my point. I've been accused of changing my views, on some issue's I have, but overall my point is the same. Disagree or not let me clarify/reiterate my point.
People say PA wins because of hard work, great coaching and committed players. True, that is why any team on any sport wins. That in and of itself is not why PA has been so dominant. They also have a massive advantage of no limit boundaries. It very simple, there is no debate. When PA takes the field against any Public school team it is not apples to apples. Let me ask this again, if PA was limited to the same land mass area as Batesville or Wynne and had no financial aid would they be as dominant ? 100% no!
I agree with the points other people make, it's about academics or parents right to chose. That's fine. Just stop trying to sell us this "great system, coaches, work ethic" BS. No one outside PA buys it. It's just not true. If you took Kelly, King, Paschel, Hill and their entire staffs. Had them switch schools every year for 4 years. They implemented their system and entire program wherever they went. Who would win it all ? PA. The advantages are too much to consistently overcome.
No biggie to me either way. I just enjoy watching the games. I will say that Chief Osceola made a great point earlier... almost all of PA's students, including their football players come from within 6 miles or so of the school. I'm really not even sure who comes from further away, but would be interesting to know.
Quote from: MB Hog on April 29, 2017, 10:30:16 am
No biggie to me either way. I just enjoy watching the games. I will say that Chief Osceola made a great point earlier... almost all of PA's students, including their football players come from within 6 miles or so of the school. I'm really not even sure who comes from further away, but would be interesting to know.
Not that this is official or binding, it may clarify some confusion. CoachTaylorPA once stated that the majority of PA students live within a 15 mile radius, a small amount are within 25 miles. Let's take the 15 mile radius, that is almost triple the size of other 5A schools. Do you see any advantage there ? I may be redundant (my wife say's I'm stupid so take your pick) but I feel this is an accurate analogy. You have a cooking competition, both Chefs start out at a grocery store to buy their ingredients. One Chef is told he can use any food from isles 1-7. You tell the other Chef he can pick from the entire store. Does anyone have an advantage ?
I get the point you are making here, but:
Quote from: JessieP on April 29, 2017, 03:20:22 pm
Not that this is official or binding, it may clarify some confusion. CoachTaylorPA once stated that the majority of PA students live within a 15 mile radius, a small amount are within 25 miles. Let's take the 15 mile radius, that is almost triple the size of other 5A schools. Do you see any advantage there ? I may be redundant (my wife say's I'm stupid so take your pick) but I feel this is an accurate analogy. You have a cooking competition, both Chefs start out at a grocery store to buy their ingredients. One Chef is told he can use any food from isles 1-7. You tell the other Chef he can pick from the entire store. Does anyone have an advantage ?
I'm not so sure that is the case. As I consider the size of a good number of the school districts I am familiar with in 5A, I suspect a good number of them draw from a radius approaching (if not exceeding) 15 miles.
Now to be fair, I don't think any public school has a perfect circle defining its attendance area, but as I think about Greenbrier, Vilonia, Morrilton, Beebe, Batesville, Huntsville, Paragould and GCT I think all of these have a quite large zone from which they pull.
How far is it from Wynne to Parkin?
Quote from: sevenof400 on April 29, 2017, 03:27:43 pm
I get the point you are making here, but:
I'm not so sure that is the case. As I consider the size of a good number of the school districts I am familiar with in 5A, I suspect a good number of them draw from a radius approaching (if not exceeding) 15 miles.
Now to be fair, I don't think any public school has a perfect circle defining its attendance area, but as I think about Greenbrier, Vilonia, Morrilton, Beebe, Batesville, Huntsville, Paragould and GCT I think all of these have a quite large zone from which they pull.
I get most my information off the internet, it may very well be flawed. The only school I can speak of with any certainty is Batesville. I am acquaintances with a member of the Batesville school Board. I as him this afternoon what is the farthest distance any BHS students travel to school ? he said Bethesda, a small community nearby. It is by far the farthest distance. Only a handful of students make the commute. It is 7.3 miles. I ask him if it was safe to assume the majority of students live within 6 miles ? yes. I ask "would you say about 70% ?" he chuckled and replied "Oh Heavens no, about 95%". Again, I cannot speak for any other schools.
With respect to Batesville, I was thinking about where I suspect the Southside school zone stops and then drawing a line from that point until you hit the school zone after Batesville going north (wouldn't that be Cave City)? I realize that is NOT a 15 mile radius from Batesville High School but doesn't the district have a pretty good east - west stretch too?
But, the more I thought about this.......check this out.
http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=5e7a6d86fdc94b6f99b430ea4bc43048
That map shows the school districts within Arkansas and should reveal the comparative sizes of the 5A school in terms of the geographical size the district covers.
Look at the size of the Huntsville school district - yow! Obviously, the size of the district in terms of land does NOT correlate to student body count alone, but I thought this was interesting to add to this.
Quote from: JessieP on April 28, 2017, 07:17:02 pm
There is an awful lot of confusion. I can't speak to the initial thrust of this thread or other peoples opinion. I can only speak to my point. I've been accused of changing my views, on some issue's I have, but overall my point is the same. Disagree or not let me clarify/reiterate my point.
People say PA wins because of hard work, great coaching and committed players. True, that is why any team on any sport wins. That in and of itself is not why PA has been so dominant. They also have a massive advantage of no limit boundaries. It very simple, there is no debate. When PA takes the field against any Public school team it is not apples to apples. Let me ask this again, if PA was limited to the same land mass area as Batesville or Wynne and had no financial aid would they be as dominant ? 100% no!
I agree with the points other people make, it's about academics or parents right to chose. That's fine. Just stop trying to sell us this "great system, coaches, work ethic" BS. No one outside PA buys it. It's just not true. If you took Kelly, King, Paschel, Hill and their entire staffs. Had them switch schools every year for 4 years. They implemented their system and entire program wherever they went. Who would win it all ? PA. The advantages are too much to consistently overcome.
If this were true, then why was PA a laughingstock before Kelley, and why can't LRCA (which has every advantage PA has) win?
Quote from: sevenof400 on April 29, 2017, 06:37:09 pm
With respect to Batesville, I was thinking about where I suspect the Southside school zone stops and then drawing a line from that point until you hit the school zone after Batesville going north (wouldn't that be Cave City)? I realize that is NOT a 15 mile radius from Batesville High School but doesn't the district have a pretty good east - west stretch too?
But, the more I thought about this.......check this out.
http://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=5e7a6d86fdc94b6f99b430ea4bc43048
That map shows the school districts within Arkansas and should reveal the comparative sizes of the 5A school in terms of the geographical size the district covers.
Look at the size of the Huntsville school district - yow! Obviously, the size of the district in terms of land does NOT correlate to student body count alone, but I thought this was interesting to add to this.
Cave City is 14 miles from Batesville. For the 3 or 4 students caught in no mans land (the middle. Your talking serious sticks) it's a coin toss. They can go to either. Here is an interesting little fact I got from the US Census website: "The Little Rock population density is 1,621.50 people per square mile, which is much higher than the state average density of 55.42 people per square mile and is much higher than the national average density of 82.73 people per square mile." So you can see, a 15 mile radius for PA gives you a slightly bigger pool of potential athletes then Batesville, Wynne, Huntsville or even Rogers/Springdale/Fayetteville. Getting back to my 'apples to apples' comparison. In order to make it even, for Batesville's 6 mile radius PA would have to be limited to a .25 mile radius. Are you starting to see the field tilting ?
Quote from: JessieP on April 29, 2017, 11:59:21 pm
Cave City is 14 miles from Batesville. For the 3 or 4 students caught in no mans land (the middle. Your talking serious sticks) it's a coin toss. They can go to either. Here is an interesting little fact I got from the US Census website: "The Little Rock population density is 1,621.50 people per square mile, which is much higher than the state average density of 55.42 people per square mile and is much higher than the national average density of 82.73 people per square mile." So you can see, a 15 mile radius for PA gives you a slightly bigger pool of potential athletes then Batesville, Wynne, Huntsville or even Rogers/Springdale/Fayetteville. Getting back to my 'apples to apples' comparison. In order to make it even, for Batesville's 6 mile radius PA would have to be limited to a .25 mile radius. Are you starting to see the field tilting ?
How many high schools are there in Batesville to divide up the players? There are more than 10 in LR.
Again, PA has advantages that most public schools don't have. Winning three titles in a row is still impressive even with those advantages.
Quote from: JessieP on April 29, 2017, 11:59:21 pm
Cave City is 14 miles from Batesville. For the 3 or 4 students caught in no mans land (the middle. Your talking serious sticks) it's a coin toss. They can go to either. Here is an interesting little fact I got from the US Census website: "The Little Rock population density is 1,621.50 people per square mile, which is much higher than the state average density of 55.42 people per square mile and is much higher than the national average density of 82.73 people per square mile." So you can see, a 15 mile radius for PA gives you a slightly bigger pool of potential athletes then Batesville, Wynne, Huntsville or even Rogers/Springdale/Fayetteville. Getting back to my 'apples to apples' comparison. In order to make it even, for Batesville's 6 mile radius PA would have to be limited to a .25 mile radius. Are you starting to see the field tilting ?
That's not apples to apples given the majority of those in the Batesville radius WILL GO to Batesville. The majority of students within 6 miles of PA... or even within .25 miles of PA WILL NOT GO to PA.
The problem here (and this is one of the reasons we can't agree) is there will never be an apples to apples comparison between public schools and private schools in athletics. Public schools will always get the majority of the students from a given area. Private schools will always have a wider radius for their student body. This is necessary in order to survive as a private school that is dependent on consistent incoming tuition to maintain its facilities, faculty, etc. from year to year... regardless of athletics.
You can only compare apples to apples when both schools are apples. In this case, private schools are an orange... or maybe a lemon to many of you. ;-)
Private schools are always going to have some advantages (yes, admitting this again), but that doesn't always translate into athletic success, which is why it is tough to find a blanket rule that evens the playing field across the board.
If certain people in the AAA want to create a private school league or some other system to even things out, so be it. But as far as I know, the PA fans posting on this board have no control over that. As I've said before, I just enjoy watching the games as a fan. The system is fun to watch and it is pretty cool to see these kids develop each year.
Just to paint the picture many of you have alluded to, the link below represents a six mile radius around PA.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5LJT5KPZeBKNkNhbmhsc1Q5Szg/view?usp=sharing
And this picture illustrates the school districts this radius touches (includes)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5LJT5KPZeBKeEZLWk9IUnlCSVk/view?usp=sharing
Quote from: MB Hog on April 30, 2017, 04:44:26 pm
That's not apples to apples given the majority of those in the Batesville radius WILL GO to Batesville. The majority of students within 6 miles of PA... or even within .25 miles of PA WILL NOT GO to PA.
The problem here (and this is one of the reasons we can't agree) is there will never be an apples to apples comparison between public schools and private schools in athletics. Public schools will always get the majority of the students from a given area. Private schools will always have a wider radius for their student body. This is necessary in order to survive as a private school that is dependent on consistent incoming tuition to maintain its facilities, faculty, etc. from year to year... regardless of athletics.
You can only compare apples to apples when both schools are apples. In this case, private schools are an orange... or maybe a lemon to many of you. ;-)
Private schools are always going to have some advantages (yes, admitting this again), but that doesn't always translate into athletic success, which is why it is tough to find a blanket rule that evens the playing field across the board.
If certain people in the AAA want to create a private school league or some other system to even things out, so be it. But as far as I know, the PA fans posting on this board have no control over that. As I've said before, I just enjoy watching the games as a fan. The system is fun to watch and it is pretty cool to see these kids develop each year.
I agree. There is no doubt PA has accomplished some amazing things. They deserve respect. My point and the point of many people across the state is that PA has a very distinct advantage. Should there be a separate division for private schools ? yes. Over the past 10 years the most visible high school football program has been Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas. They have a few National Championships and consistently dominate the state of Nevada. Head Coach Kenny Sanchez speaking to Bleacher Report said "We have parents actually move here from out of state to give their sons the best possible football exposure. Often we are able to help them out with financial aid and supportive tutoring. Our young men prosper here and many have gone on to do great things in college and the NFL. Is a private school more able to build a winning program ? of course. Public schools are far too limited to compete at this level year in and year out". Why can't PA backers at least admit what everyone else already knows ?
Quote from: JessieP on April 30, 2017, 08:09:03 pm
I agree. There is no doubt PA has accomplished some amazing things. They deserve respect. My point and the point of many people across the state is that PA has a very distinct advantage. Should there be a separate division for private schools ? yes. Over the past 10 years the most visible high school football program has been Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas. They have a few National Championships and consistently dominate the state of Nevada. Head Coach Kenny Sanchez speaking to Bleacher Report said "We have parents actually move here from out of state to give their sons the best possible football exposure. Often we are able to help them out with financial aid and supportive tutoring. Our young men prosper here and many have gone on to do great things in college and the NFL. Is a private school more able to build a winning program ? of course. Public schools are far too limited to compete at this level year in and year out". Why can't PA backers at least admit what everyone else already knows ?
Literally every PA poster has admitted that we have inherent advantages. I said it two posts ago.
Something fun to add to the thread. A great game.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3NAy3nxtM50
Jesse with all due respect and honor what we do as a school and football program at Pulaski Academy is nothing like Bishop Gorman. Also Jesse I think we all need to respect or recognize some of the great public school football programs in Arkansas as we should,
The Bishop Gorman coaches comments are contextual. I know several public school programs in Texas compete at a high level every year and have as much pride as anyone in maintaining elite success. Additionally I think you would find it interesting to look into what Nevada football is like before translating his statements to Arkansas. Batesville in 2012 and Morrilton in 2013 seemed to me to compete just fine with us. Jesse do you think that over the years Batesville, Wynne, Greenwood, Fayetteville, Nashville, Bentonville, Camden Fairview, Warren, and LR Central haven't had elite programs ? Those schools could of all gone to other states and competed with the best teams around. They had obvious great success in this state. Most of those aforementioned schools have produced great players that are in college or the NFL. Additionally most went to multiple championships in a row. Arkansas high school football is on the rise and most programs are gaining more support from their communities. This will lead to improvement.
Jesse not all schools are going to be located in rural areas so certain comparisons are not equivalent. Also over the years don't you think that people have moved to Batesvillle from surrounding areas or school districts for academics, quality of community, and to play in the wonderful athletic program Coach King has developed. Didn't Batesville's baseball team under Stu Smith win multiple state titles. Batesville has great facilities and community pride. Don't sale the pioneers legacy short. Lastly something to consider how many private schools end up hiring coaches from public schools and public schools hire private school coaches. Simply another perspective on the discussion at hand.
Also as a side note I think I saw where you mentioned about if coaches traded programs how team would do etc..... I don't think the pro i or flex bone would function real well at our place. I certainly think it would be entertaining to watch our players run the triple option after spreading it all these years. However I did enjoy seeing Wynne onside kicking this season.
Quote from: JessieP on April 30, 2017, 08:09:03 pm
I agree. There is no doubt PA has accomplished some amazing things. They deserve respect. My point and the point of many people across the state is that PA has a very distinct advantage. Should there be a separate division for private schools ? yes. Over the past 10 years the most visible high school football program has been Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas. They have a few National Championships and consistently dominate the state of Nevada. Head Coach Kenny Sanchez speaking to Bleacher Report said "We have parents actually move here from out of state to give their sons the best possible football exposure. Often we are able to help them out with financial aid and supportive tutoring. Our young men prosper here and many have gone on to do great things in college and the NFL. Is a private school more able to build a winning program ? of course. Public schools are far too limited to compete at this level year in and year out". Why can't PA backers at least admit what everyone else already knows ?
Quote from: JessieP on April 30, 2017, 08:09:03 pm
I agree. There is no doubt PA has accomplished some amazing things. They deserve respect. My point and the point of many people across the state is that PA has a very distinct advantage. Should there be a separate division for private schools ? yes. Over the past 10 years the most visible high school football program has been Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas. They have a few National Championships and consistently dominate the state of Nevada. Head Coach Kenny Sanchez speaking to Bleacher Report said "We have parents actually move here from out of state to give their sons the best possible football exposure. Often we are able to help them out with financial aid and supportive tutoring. Our young men prosper here and many have gone on to do great things in college and the NFL. Is a private school more able to build a winning program ? of course. Public schools are far too limited to compete at this level year in and year out". Why can't PA backers at least admit what everyone else already knows ?
Jessie - I think you and I are establishing some common ground, so I hope you will read my next statement with an open mind and some trust that I am being honest with you.
I don't know anything about the Bishop Gorman program, but it sounds like they are a professed football factory. Families move in from all over for the chance for their boys to play football there. In contrast, as discussed many times, a
high majority of PA students, football players included, come to PA no later than 6th grade, and a simple majority of them have been at PA since at least 1st grade. Every year at the Academic Awards Program, they introduce the new Forever Club members. These are the graduating seniors who have been at PA continuously since at least first grade. They have every senior who is becoming part of the Forever Club come up on stage at the same time and have them line up across the large stage, two rows deep, for recognition and applause. There are many more seniors up on the stage than remain in their seats. It's a pretty neat sight.
On a side note about the kids who come in at 6th grade, this is due to perceived issues with the Little Rock middle schools. There are generally good options for elementary school in Little Rock, but after that the reputation is not so good. That's why you see an influx of students to PA at that grade.
Long story short, the kids are coming to PA for the education; not for the football. I'm sure there are a few that come to PA because of the football program, but that is the exception; not the rule. And as I've mentioned, those kids still have to keep their grades up (in a very challenging academic environment) to be able to stay at PA. That's because academics do come first.
In the case of Bishop Gorman, it sounds like they are selling their football program as the main reason to go to school there... in some cases even to move to Nevada for the football program. For PA, they are selling the education... the good football program is just a plus.
Quote from: sevenof400 on April 30, 2017, 05:21:37 pm
Just to paint the picture many of you have alluded to, the link below represents a six mile radius around PA.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5LJT5KPZeBKNkNhbmhsc1Q5Szg/view?usp=sharing
And this picture illustrates the school districts this radius touches (includes)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5LJT5KPZeBKeEZLWk9IUnlCSVk/view?usp=sharing
Nice illustration.
Late last night I had quite the "egg on my face moment". A lot of my perceived PA's financial advantages were basically shot out of the water as far as Batesville is concerned. There was a very touching post by Price Holmes, the Razorbacks strength and conditioning coach and former Pioneer. He expressed his love and gratitude to Coach Bielema and his lifetime love of the Hogs. That after much prayerful reflection he decided to come home. The new Pioneer strength and conditioning coach is last years Razorbacks strength and conditioning coach. Add that to Charlie Strong, another former Pioneer, saying that with the completion of the new athletic facilities and fieldhouse, Batesville's facilities are second to no one in the state. Oops! maybe I shouldn't have thrown the "you have financial advantages in anyone's face".
And MB Hog and Coach Taylor are correct. Arkansas Football is on the way up, of course our top teams couldn't compete with a Bishop Gorman, Plano East or Mater Dei, but they are a lot closer then they were 10 years ago. I absolutely agree that Bishop Gorman is first and foremost a football factory, they are the Alabama of high school football. "academics ? you mean those rooms the players go to before practice" ?
My whole point, the entire everlovin point, is why does football have a higher percentage of students receiving aid then the general student body ? I acknowledge every other point, I can't get past that one. If there is a reasonable explanation I'll apologize, pack up and go home. I just don't get it.
Quote from: JessieP on May 01, 2017, 08:30:08 am
Late last night I had quite the "egg on my face moment". A lot of my perceived PA's financial advantages were basically shot out of the water as far as Batesville is concerned. There was a very touching post by Price Holmes, the Razorbacks strength and conditioning coach and former Pioneer. He expressed his love and gratitude to Coach Bielema and his lifetime love of the Hogs. That after much prayerful reflection he decided to come home. The new Pioneer strength and conditioning coach is last years Razorbacks strength and conditioning coach. Add that to Charlie Strong, another former Pioneer, saying that with the completion of the new athletic facilities and fieldhouse, Batesville's facilities are second to no one in the state. Oops! maybe I shouldn't have thrown the "you have financial advantages in anyone's face".
And MB Hog and Coach Taylor are correct. Arkansas Football is on the way up, of course our top teams couldn't compete with a Bishop Gorman, Plano East or Mater Dei, but they are a lot closer then they were 10 years ago. I absolutely agree that Bishop Gorman is first and foremost a football factory, they are the Alabama of high school football. "academics ? you mean those rooms the players go to before practice" ?
My whole point, the entire everlovin point, is why does football have a higher percentage of students receiving aid then the general student body ? I acknowledge every other point, I can't get past that one. If there is a reasonable explanation I'll apologize, pack up and go home. I just don't get it.
Jessie - I don't have a definite answer, but I can speculate... so here is my guess:
Football and basketball are more socio-economically diverse sports than the others. You don't see a lot of economically challenged students grow up participating in soccer, golf, tennis, volleyball, swimming, cross-country... and often times, not even baseball. Basketball at PA probably has a higher percentage receiving aid in some years, but because of the low number of players on the team, those percentages can swing widely from year-to-year. Football, however, is such a high participation sport that it is always going to have the most diverse population of athletes in the school. Therefore, you are going to have a higher percentage of more socio-economically challenged students on the team... and thus, receiving aid. It's not a recruiting thing or a fairness thing... just a number that represents the population.
I don't know this to be fact, but it makes sense to me. I hope it is logical to you, too.
Quote from: MB Hog on May 01, 2017, 08:49:10 am
Jessie - I don't have a definite answer, but I can speculate... so here is my guess:
Football and basketball are more socio-economically diverse sports than the others. You don't see a lot of economically challenged students grow up participating in soccer, golf, tennis, volleyball, swimming, cross-country... and often times, not even baseball. Basketball at PA probably has a higher percentage receiving aid in some years, but because of the low number of players on the team, those percentages can swing widely from year-to-year. Football, however, is such a high participation sport that it is always going to have the most diverse population of athletes in the school. Therefore, you are going to have a higher percentage of more socio-economically challenged students on the team... and thus, receiving aid. It's not a recruiting thing or a fairness thing... just a number that represents the population.
I don't know this to be fact, but it makes sense to me. I hope it is logical to you, too.
Let me process that through my feeble mind. I actually can do the math on that one. It never occurred to me but there is some validity to that point. You don't see a lot of tennis played on the plains of Texas or golf and soccer played in the Los Angeles inner cities.
Quote from: JessieP on May 01, 2017, 10:43:19 am
Let me process that through my feeble mind. I actually can do the math on that one. It never occurred to me but there is some validity to that point. You don't see a lot of tennis played on the plains of Texas or golf and soccer played in the Los Angeles inner cities.
You obviously don't have a feeble mind. :) Just sharing another point of view.
I've lived in the same house in West Little Rock for over 34 years. The driving distance in miles from my house to LRSD high schools: Hall 6.8 (one child attends), Parkview 8.0, Fair 9.5, Central 11.6 (our "assigned" school), McClellan 17.3. For PCSSD schools: Robinson 8.7, Maumelle 12.0, Mills 18.4. Private schools: LRCA 7.3, Catholic 7.5, ESC 9.9. The distance to Pulaski Academy is 4.7 miles. Now for academics. National Merit Semifinalists for all of the above schools: Central 12, Parkview 1, LRCA 2, ECS 2, PA 8.
In other words, if you want to look at a 6 mile radius, there are no other high schools other than PA, public or private, that would meet the criteria, and the only school with comparable academics is 2.47 times farther away. Take the radius out to 15 miles, and all but two schools (one LRSD and one PCSSD) are still within the radius. My situation is similar to a whole lot of families that live west of !-430 in Little Rock. I had the financial ability to make a choice and I, like a lot of families, chose the best academic school, that also happened to be the closest. For those without the same financial ability, it is understandable that they would look at the school with the best academics, that was as close, or closer, to where they lived and had the largest endowment from which financial aid could be obtained.
The 2010 combined population of Fayetteville, Springdale, Rogers and Bentonville is only slightly greater than Little Rock. Bentonville HS (18) and Fayetteville HS (16), had more National Merit Semifinalists than any other Arkansas high school. All have superior athletic programs. Other then Haas Hall (370 students), independent private schools don't exist. If their school districts were in the same shape as Little Rock's, this thread would be talking about the "advantages" that NWA private schools shared with PA and the other LR private schools, and there might be enough schools to have a private school league.
As a private school in LR, PA does have some advantages, most of which are shared by Baptist Prep and Episcopal, which were a combined 1-19 in football last year, but State Champions in basketball. Conway and Cabot share many of the same advantages as the NWA schools, and were a combined 11-14 in football last year. If the "advantages" that each school had were due to the factors put forward by many, one would expect to see excellence in all sports. Since this is clearly not the case, there must be a simpler explanation that can be applied. Good athletes and good coaching are what result in good teams. It really is that simple.
"Good athletes and good coaching are what result in good teams. It really is that simple."
It really isn't. But if you believe that, more power to you. It all comes down to one simple fact that has not been disproven or even disputed. Take away financial aid, if you want to play football you foot the bill, 100% of it. How many players would you lose ? still think it's all hard work ? a lot of PA's football success is because of financial aid given to football players, not all of it not even most of it, a lot of it. You take the football players receiving financial aid off the field and Wynne wins that game, by mercy rule. It really is that simple.
Quote from: JessieP on May 01, 2017, 06:09:50 pm
"Good athletes and good coaching are what result in good teams. It really is that simple."
It really isn't. But if you believe that, more power to you. It all comes down to one simple fact that has not been disproven or even disputed. Take away financial aid, if you want to play football you foot the bill, 100% of it. How many players would you lose ? still think it's all hard work ? a lot of PA's football success is because of financial aid given to football players, not all of it not even most of it, a lot of it. You take the football players receiving financial aid off the field and Wynne wins that game, by mercy rule. It really is that simple.
Ugh. My new friend, Jessie. Please don't get pulled back into arguing. I admit I don't know who gets what on the team regarding financial aid. Please don't pretend to know that all the money is going to the stars. But some examples of some of the recent biggest stars include Hunter Henry and his brothers as well as Will Hefley, Will Hastings, and Luke Jones. I guarantee none of those guys are receiving financial aid, and none were recruited as football players. Just because 30+ percent of the football players receive some sort of aid, that doesn't mean they are the stars of the team.
You seemed like you were so close to understanding there are two sides to the story. Please keep an open mind.
I shouldn't really care, but it is a good school... doing things the right way. I feel obligated to speak up on its behalf.
Quote from: MB Hog on May 01, 2017, 08:50:54 pm
Ugh. My new friend, Jessie. Please don't get pulled back into arguing. I admit I don't know who gets what on the team regarding financial aid. Please don't pretend to know that all the money is going to the stars. But some examples of some of the recent biggest stars include Hunter Henry and his brothers as well as Will Hefley, Will Hastings, and Luke Jones. I guarantee none of those guys are receiving financial aid, and none were recruited as football players. Just because 30+ percent of the football players receive some sort of aid, that doesn't mean they are the stars of the team.
You seemed like you were so close to understanding there are two sides to the story. Please keep an open mind.
I shouldn't really care, but it is a good school... doing things the right way. I feel obligated to speak up on its behalf.
Everything you said positive is true. I do not believe all the stars are getting help, never said that. I agree, we were making progress (sounds like a labor/management dispute, lol.) I do see some of the points you and others have made. I also said long ago that my first trip to PA was a pleasant surprise. Great fans, no taunting, good sportsmanship on the field and a general mutual respect between the Batesville/PA fans. It had a company picnic feel, a loss but an overall enjoyable experience. I give you all that and more.
The thing that drives me to distraction and gets most the other teams in the state so irritated is an attitude like the one expressed by Bruin Backer. Now I do realize he/she does not speak for PA or it's fans but that arrogant condescending self righteous "we just work harder, we have better coaches, we're just better people. That's just a fact" attitude is exactly the reason that so many people (I assure you, I am far from the only one with these views) have these negative opinions about PA. There are so many positives about PA football and their fans but when someone post that kinda look down our noses crap like BB did it riles up the masses. I'm reminded of that scene from Wall Street, I'm dating myself here, when Gordon Gecko points to a Wall Street type man in a $2,000 suit standing next to a homeless man and say's to Bud Fox "you mean to tell me the difference in those two men is hard work" ?, he then shoots him that "give me a flippin break" look. I'm an educated man, played football beyond high school. Love the game, I spend hours watching on Friday, Saturday and Sunday's. Don't tell me PA's success is solely based on hard work and coaching. Yes that is a very large part of it but it also over simplifies the issue.
Quote from: JessieP on May 01, 2017, 06:09:50 pm
"Good athletes and good coaching are what result in good teams. It really is that simple."
It really isn't. But if you believe that, more power to you. It all comes down to one simple fact that has not been disproven or even disputed. Take away financial aid, if you want to play football you foot the bill, 100% of it. How many players would you lose ? still think it's all hard work ? a lot of PA's football success is because of financial aid given to football players, not all of it not even most of it, a lot of it. You take the football players receiving financial aid off the field and Wynne wins that game, by mercy rule. It really is that simple.
c'mon Jessie. You have said that you don't know who is on financial aid, or how much, etc., yet you know that if they weren't on the field the game would have been 70 points different? Multiple players on that team that will play D1 are not getting a dime for certain; how many D1 players did Wynne have?
Quote from: Bruin Backer on May 01, 2017, 02:33:53 pm
As a private school in LR, PA does have some advantages, most of which are shared by Baptist Prep and Episcopal, which were a combined 1-19 in football last year, but State Champions in basketball. If the "advantages" that each school had were due to the factors put forward by many, one would expect to see excellence in all sports. Since this is clearly not the case, there must be a simpler explanation that can be applied. Good athletes and good coaching are what result in good teams. It really is that simple.
So it seems all the good football athletes are at PA and the good basketball athletes are at Baptist Prep and Episcopal? You realize what you're saying here don't you? :D
Or maybe you don't...
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 02, 2017, 08:50:06 am
So it seems all the good football athletes are at PA and the good basketball athletes are at Baptist Prep and Episcopal? You realize what you're saying don't you? :D
Thank you Sugartown. I saw that too. I didn't want to say anything because I'm starting to sound like a one man band. My jaw dropped when I read that. The ironic thing is that it was meant as a defense. Private schools don't recruit, want proof ? the best basketball players go Baptist Prep and Episcopal, the best football players go to PA. I can picture an attorney sitting next to his client testifying before congress, trying to put his hand over the microphone, just a second too late.
Hi, guys - I think I'm going to sit on the sidelines for a while now. I've given my opinions and I think they've been received respectfully, which I appreciate.
MB Hog
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 02, 2017, 08:50:06 am
So it seems all the good football athletes are at PA and the good basketball athletes are at Baptist Prep and Episcopal? You realize what you're saying here don't you? :D
I do realize what I said. I did not say that ALL the best football players go to PA, or that ALL the best basketball players go to BP or ECS. What I did say was that if the "advantages" that private schools supposedly enjoyed were all that explained success in a given sport, then you would expect certain schools to be good in all sports, and a school like Mills certainly wouldn't have been the 5A champs in basketball. They are are a perfect example that championships result when good players are matched with good coaching. How anyone read into what I wrote as being proof that Baptist and ECS are now recruiting basketball players like PA recruits football players is beyond me.
The main purpose of the post was to discuss how some athletes, good and bad, end up at a certain school for reasons unrelated to recruiting. I understand that my previous post about driving distances and National Merit Semifinalists probably made little sense to anyone that doesn't live in Little Rock. I wish that choosing a school for my children was as easy to do as it is in Batesville. However, it isn't so simple in Little Rock, which has problems. I-630 has become a dividing line between the haves and the have nots in the city. Affluent families, white and black, live predominantly north of I-630 and west of I-430.
Most "affluent" parents care about their children's education. Most can also read a map. When the map says you would have to drive past several private schools with solid academic credentials to send your child to a school like Hall that is on the State's list of academically distressed schools, or most of the other LRSD high schools that are even farther away, you think twice. Even if your child could get into the AP program at Central, the distance is a problem for a WLR family. My point is that in many cities, like Bentonville and even Batesville, there are families with the means to send their kids to a private school, but don't because they have an adequate public school to choose from. It has nothing to do with arrogance or self-righteousness on the part of PA parents, myself included. It has to do with making choices, given a set of options that none of us really like.
As MB Hog pointed out, the most difficult school choices in LR occur at the middle and high school level, especially if academics matter the most. The idea that a school's football program matters the most is ridiculous. If that were the case, then why would two star football player have gone to ECS in recent years? If they had the academic qualifications to get into ESC, and they both did, then they had the qualifications to get into PA. Did they get financial aid from ECS? Who knows, and who cares? Each family made the choice that was best for them, and each young man got a great education AND is attending college on an athletic scholarship.
PA may have a higher percentage of football players on financial aid than that of the student body as a whole. That is a correlation that, in and of itself, tells you very little. One can speculate about it, but there can be many reasons why the correlation exists that have nothing to do with the football program. If the majority of the football players receiving financial aid began receiving financial aid when they started at PA as elementary school students, then it pretty much discounts the "pay to play" conspiracy idea. What about those that began at PA after the sixth grade? What was their motivation? Was it because they just wanted to play football at PA, and were offered financial aid to do so?
To answer the questions, one would first have to know how many football players that began at PA after the sixth grade receive financial aid and how many football players that began at PA after the eight grade are not on financial aid. If one had that information, then the correlation might have some relevance. However, that information, if even available, has not been presented. Therefore, the best one can do is speculate if the correlation infers causation. I can "speculate" that some bright students who had previously been attending a public school wanted to attend an academically oriented high school. I can speculate that many would require financial aid to attend a private school. I can speculate that such aid was available from several private schools, and the student chose PA. I can speculate that, in some cases, because of its larger endowment, only PA was able to offer financial aid. I can even speculate that many of the prospective students were potentially football players.
At this point, I see nothing nefarious in the process. On the other hand, if PA routinely provided financial aid to some students solely on the basis of their perceived potential football skills, but denied aid to other students that were equally qualified, then it would be a serious problem, and I would be just as outraged as anyone else. What I don't agree with is that some tenuous correlation data is sufficient proof of a causal relationship that everyone but PA supporters "knows" to be a fact.
Like JesseP, I am an educated man that played football beyond the high school level, and I apologize to all if my comments seemed condescending. I am simply presenting a different interpretation of what's going on. From experience, I can tell you that there are a whole lot of things much more important than playing football. From experience, I can not fault any family that does whatever it takes, including asking for financial aid, to find the best educational option for their child. There may be some academically and athletically gifted kids in Little Rock that choose to attend a given public or private school because of its success in a particular sport. There are clearly just as many that choose a particular school despite its lack of success in their sport. I stand by whatever decision a family makes.
Jessie, I think it goes without saying that the best basketball players in Little Rock are at LRSD and PCSSD schools the vast majority of the time. Also you took my statements about the miles students live from school a bit out of context. However I may have been unclear. Also about the Bishop Gorman post and Arkansas football on the rise... I think you would be surprised at how well the top teams in our state would do against top teams from other states. Fayeteville was just ranked the #2 athletic program in the nation by maxpreps. Bentonville a few years back beat South Panola MS. Harber has defeated one of the best teams in Missouri the past few years. Fayeteville beat Bishop Dunn out of Dallas last year. Pine Bluff can line up and play with a lot of states elite teams as could Jonesboro. I could list more.. Really good football developing all across the state. I would ask this question Batesville is a great program so what in your opinion has led to their success. I'm sure coaching and hard work are on the list. I would be interested to see if they are similar in principal to not only our program but but the other great programs in our state.
Quote from: JessieP on May 02, 2017, 09:41:01 am
Thank you Sugartown. I saw that too. I didn't want to say anything because I'm starting to sound like a one man band. My jaw dropped when I read that. The ironic thing is that it was meant as a defense. Private schools don't recruit, want proof ? the best basketball players go Baptist Prep and Episcopal, the best football players go to PA. I can picture an attorney sitting next to his client testifying before congress, trying to put his hand over the microphone, just a second too late.
What I've not seen mentioned much on this 20 page thread about all the advantages that PA has, is the fact that PA has 310 kids in high school, Wynne - 623, Batesville - 660, Sylvan Hills - 1005. So PA is playing schools two or three times bigger, and the only argument on here is that PA has too big of an advantage.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 08:17:02 am
What I've not seen mentioned much on this 20 page thread about all the advantages that PA has, is the fact that PA has 310 kids in high school, Wynne - 623, Batesville - 660, Sylvan Hills - 1005. So PA is playing schools two or three times bigger, and the only argument on here is that PA has too big of an advantage.
Once again so the slow ones can understand, those schools are restricted by their respective districts, PA is not. As has been stated before, for example, a student can move into Bryant or Cabot or Maumelle from somewhere else in the state and play for PA. You cannot however, live or move into in Cabot and play for Bryant, or live in Lonoke and play for Sylvan Hills. You have to go to school and play in the district where you reside.
Yes, those schools have more students, but the football team is comprised of the students IN the school district. PA has no district.
I'll agree that PA has great coaching, but that doesn't account for them having the most players go on to play college football than any other school. "Coaching them up" can't totally explain that away. You pointing out that they only have 310 students only exacerbates the point.
I'm not trying to take away from the hard work that the players at PA put in, they have good players, no question about it. But they have inordinately more "good" players than most schools, especially those with only 310 students.
Quote from: CoachTaylorPA on May 02, 2017, 10:36:14 pm
Jessie, I think it goes without saying that the best basketball players in Little Rock are at LRSD and PCSSD schools the vast majority of the time. Also you took my statements about the miles students live from school a bit out of context. However I may have been unclear. Also about the Bishop Gorman post and Arkansas football on the rise... I think you would be surprised at how well the top teams in our state would do against top teams from other states. Fayeteville was just ranked the #2 athletic program in the nation by maxpreps. Bentonville a few years back beat South Panola MS. Harber has defeated one of the best teams in Missouri the past few years. Fayeteville beat Bishop Dunn out of Dallas last year. Pine Bluff can line up and play with a lot of states elite teams as could Jonesboro. I could list more.. Really good football developing all across the state. I would ask this question Batesville is a great program so what in your opinion has led to their success. I'm sure coaching and hard work are on the list. I would be interested to see if they are similar in principal to not only our program but but the other great programs in our state.
None of those Arkansas schools you listed have 310 students though. No public school with an enrollment like PA could compete with ANY of those teams.
Man, you guys just keep digging yourselves a bigger hole. :D
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 03, 2017, 08:47:29 am
Once again so the slow ones can understand, those schools are restricted by their respective districts, PA is not. As has been stated before, for example, a student can move into Bryant or Cabot or Maumelle from somewhere else in the state and play for PA. You cannot however, live or move into in Cabot and play for Bryant, or live in Lonoke and play for Sylvan Hills. You have to go to school and play in the district where you reside.
Yes, those schools have more students, but the football team is comprised of the students IN the school district. PA has no district.
I'll agree that PA has great coaching, but that doesn't account for them having the most players go on to play college football than any other school. "Coaching them up" can't totally explain that away. You pointing out that they only have 310 students only exacerbates the point.
I'm not trying to take away from the hard work that the players at PA put in, they have good players, no question about it. But they have inordinately more "good" players than most schools, especially those with only 310 students.
You seem to think that PA's student body is widely dispersed geographically. But they aren't, it's a small radius. For all of your talk about where the students come from, there are still twice as many that come from Wynne that go to PA. Your point seems to be that PA can draw from anywhere, but they still only get half as many students.
Part of the problem is this, and it can't be fixed. You see "PA" as a football program, but those of us within the school know the kids themselves and have known them for 6, 8 or 12 years. We know where they live, their parents, etc. So you look at the D1 kid and think there's no way he just happened to go to PA, and we remember when he weighed 110 pounds and know that his dad is an accountant.
So go ahead and pick this post apart like all the others. It doesn't really matter.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 09:19:29 am
You seem to think that PA's student body is widely dispersed geographically. But they aren't, it's a small radius. For all of your talk about where the students come from, there are still twice as many that come from Wynne that go to PA. Your point seems to be that PA can draw from anywhere, but they still only get half as many students.
Part of the problem is this, and it can't be fixed. You see "PA" as a football program, but those of us within the school know the kids themselves and have known them for 6, 8 or 12 years. We know where they live, their parents, etc. So you look at the D1 kid and think there's no way he just happened to go to PA, and we remember when he weighed 110 pounds and know that his dad is an accountant.
So go ahead and pick this post apart like all the others. It doesn't really matter.
Yeah, I guess you're right, that "6 mile radius" around PA is the best in the state for churning out football players. It has to be since that's where "most" of your players come from, right?
That's good news for me as I live in that radius. Maybe my boy will turn into a D1 player when he gets to high school! :D
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 03, 2017, 09:39:24 am
Yeah, I guess you're right, that "6 mile radius" around PA is the best in the state for churning out football players. It has to be since that's where "most" of your players come from, right?
That's good news for me as I live in that radius. Maybe my boy will turn into a D1 player when he gets to high school! :D
So you don't believe that most that most PA students and players come from within 6 miles of the school? That's objectively true. I can't change what you want to believe.
I tell you what, I will take you on a tour of the school and introduce you to as many players as we can find. You ask them where they are from, how long they've been at PA, etc. and you decide for yourself.
And I hope your son does go to PA. He will get a great education.
Lol, that's ok, I personally know a few that moved in there during 8-9-10th grade that most certainly didn't grow up in that area. And that's fine, it's within the rules.
So how do YOU explain a school of 310 students being able to complete and beat teams with twice as many students year after year? Coaching???
I appreciate all points on both sides of this argument. But let me ask a question. If you took the 6 mile radius that most of the students come from and made PA a public school, would they still have the same success?
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 03, 2017, 09:59:00 am
Lol, that's ok, I personally know a few that moved in there during 8-9-10th grade that most certainly didn't grow up in that area. And that's fine, it's within the rules.
So how do YOU explain a school of 310 students being able to complete and beat teams with twice as many students year after year? Coaching???
Rampant cheating of course. Only plausible explanation.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 10:11:03 am
Rampant cheating of course. Only plausible explanation.
So you don't have one. Like I thought.
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 03, 2017, 10:18:50 am
So you don't have one. Like I thought.
Why do you think they haven't lost a game in state in 3 years? Recruiting, cheating, paying players?
I think it's because its one of the wealthiest schools in the state that gives kids that go there every opportunity to succeed whether it be football, soccer, math or model UN. I think they have as good of a coaching staff as exists in the state. I think that many players are able to afford additional instruction like QB camps and D1 memberships. I think because of parent involvement, a level of commitment to be on the team is required that can not be accomplished most places (the coaches tell you when your family vacation will be). I think PA has schematic advantage over at least 95% of the teams that they play. I think that a tradition has been built that now attracts kids to play there because they know they will get exposure to colleges. I think the public schools in LR have been so bad that parents are forced to look for other alternatives, and PA is tied for the best alternative in LR. I think the average PA ACT is 27, which is in the 88th percentile nationally so the players are able to handle complex schemes more easily. I think about half the teams PA plays in state are beat before the game starts because they don't think they can beat PA. I think that while difficult to accept, graduates of PA are doing better in college and career than most high school graduates so it makes sense that they would have a record of success.
So that's what I think. But you think they cheat. So who knows who's right?
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 03, 2017, 09:59:00 am
Lol, that's ok, I personally know a few that moved in there during 8-9-10th grade that most certainly didn't grow up in that area. And that's fine, it's within the rules.
So how do YOU explain a school of 310 students being able to complete and beat teams with twice as many students year after year? Coaching???
Coaching is a big part of PA's success. That's pretty easy to demonstrate. PA was low on the totem pole before Kelley came, and they had the same advantages then that they have now. Kelley turned the program around.
But, in my opinion, a bigger factor is that Kelley gets the kids in the 5th or 6th grade and starts them in his system. By the time they get to high school they know the system inside and out. And they see the success the high school team has and they buy into the program completely. If a public school coach had that advantage, I think they would be more successful.
While I don't know a lot about Greenwood, I think they have a similar setup. I think their coaches have a lot to do with junior high players and get them accustomed to their brand of football early
Quote from: PA Dad on May 03, 2017, 10:39:35 am
Coaching is a big part of PA's success. That's pretty easy to demonstrate. PA was low on the totem pole before Kelley came, and they had the same advantages then that they have now. Kelley turned the program around.
But, in my opinion, a bigger factor is that Kelley gets the kids in the 5th or 6th grade and starts them in his system. By the time they get to high school they know the system inside and out. And they see the success the high school team has and they buy into the program completely. If a public school coach had that advantage, I think they would be more successful.
While I don't know a lot about Greenwood, I think they have a similar setup. I think their coaches have a lot to do with junior high players and get them accustomed to their brand of football early
You're correct about Greenwood. And they've gotten plenty of folks from Ft. Smith to come there as well. It's not a coincidence that the Southside and Northside programs went from competing for championships to not when Greenwood got good.
Quote from: PA Dad on May 03, 2017, 10:39:35 am
Coaching is a big part of PA's success. That's pretty easy to demonstrate. PA was low on the totem pole before Kelley came, and they had the same advantages then that they have now. Kelley turned the program around.
But, in my opinion, a bigger factor is that Kelley gets the kids in the 5th or 6th grade and starts them in his system. By the time they get to high school they know the system inside and out. And they see the success the high school team has and they buy into the program completely. If a public school coach had that advantage, I think they would be more successful.
While I don't know a lot about Greenwood, I think they have a similar setup. I think their coaches have a lot to do with junior high players and get them accustomed to their brand of football early
Almost all public schools do that. You'd be hard pressed to find a public school district in Arkansas where the football teams don't run the exact same system from at least the 7th grade on up.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 10:36:15 am
Why do you think they haven't lost a game in state in 3 years? Recruiting, cheating, paying players?
I think it's because its one of the wealthiest schools in the state that gives kids that go there every opportunity to succeed whether it be football, soccer, math or model UN. I think they have as good of a coaching staff as exists in the state. I think that many players are able to afford additional instruction like QB camps and D1 memberships. I think because of parent involvement, a level of commitment to be on the team is required that can not be accomplished most places (the coaches tell you when your family vacation will be). I think PA has schematic advantage over at least 95% of the teams that they play. I think that a tradition has been built that now attracts kids to play there because they know they will get exposure to colleges. I think the public schools in LR have been so bad that parents are forced to look for other alternatives, and PA is tied for the best alternative in LR. I think the average PA ACT is 27, which is in the 88th percentile nationally so the players are able to handle complex schemes more easily. I think about half the teams PA plays in state are beat before the game starts because they don't think they can beat PA. I think that while difficult to accept, graduates of PA are doing better in college in career than most high school graduates so it makes sense that they would have a record of success.
So that's what I think. But you think they cheat. So who knows who's right?
Where did you get that I think they cheat? Never said anything of the sort. I've said that they have good coaches and players. But I think that some parents send their kids there for football as much as the education, that's where we differ. And that's within the rules of course, however public schools can't give their students aid like privates can.
Private schools just don't have to play by the same rules as public schools. I'm not begrudging them any success, but that's just a fact.
Quote from: GuvHog on May 03, 2017, 10:46:30 am
Almost all public schools do that. You'd be hard pressed to find a public school district in Arkansas where the football teams don't run the exact same system from at least the 7th grade on up.
You may be right about that. I don't know enough to say one way or the other. But, is the high school head coach at every game? Kelley is. He is also at most of their practices. I think that makes a difference.
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 03, 2017, 10:52:09 am
Where did you get that I think they cheat? Never said anything of the sort. I've said that they have good coaches and players. But I think that some parents send their kids there for football as much as the education, that's where we differ. And that's within the rules of course, however public schools can't give their students aid like privates can.
Private schools just don't have to play by the same rules as public schools. I'm not begrudging them any success, but that's just a fact.
Well of course some parents sent their kids there because of football. I've acknowledged that. I've also said that PA has advantages not available to every school. But LRCA has those advantages and does very little with it. You still can't take away the success that PA has achieved by chalking it up to inherent advantages.
And while I get your point about public schools, they do give aid to all students in the form of a free education. PA can't match that.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 11:04:04 am
Well of course some parents sent their kids there because of football. I've acknowledged that. I've also said that PA has advantages not available to every school. But LRCA has those advantages and does very little with it. You still can't take away the success that PA has achieved by chalking it up to inherent advantages.
And while I get your point about public schools, they do give aid to all students in the form of a free education. PA can't match that.
It's not free, we pay taxes...well, most of us do. :)
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on May 03, 2017, 10:44:06 am
You're correct about Greenwood. And they've gotten plenty of folks from Ft. Smith to come there as well. It's not a coincidence that the Southside and Northside programs went from competing for championships to not when Greenwood got good.
That is a loaded statement. Sure there are students in Greenwood school's from Fort Smith. The thing you overlook is that Fort Smith has annexed a lot of rural area on the south side of Fort Smith, but they did not change the school districts
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 10:36:15 am
I think PA has schematic advantage over at least 95% of the teams that they play.
When did Charlie Weis start coaching at PA? His Notre Dame teams also had a 'decided schematic advantage' over all opponents, according to him anyway.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on May 03, 2017, 01:05:06 pm
When did Charlie Weis start coaching at PA? His Notre Dame teams also had a 'decided schematic advantage' over all opponents, according to him anyway.
Weis didn't win three state championships. I've seen too many receivers open by 10 yards for too many years not to believe that the PA scheme is better than most.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 01:09:18 pm
Weis didn't win three state championships. I've seen too many receivers open by 10 yards for too many years not to believe that the PA scheme is better than most.
https://www.si.com/vault/2005/04/25/8258597/charlie-in-charge
In his crewcut and his suit Weis kept talking. Somewhere in the middle of his speech he stopped dissing and started selling. He talked about running the Patriots' offense and winning Super Bowls. About getting "nasty" on the field. At one point he told his new charges, "Every game, you will have a decided schematic advantage."I was making light of the schematic advantage comment. :)
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on May 03, 2017, 01:28:00 pm
https://www.si.com/vault/2005/04/25/8258597/charlie-in-charge
In his crewcut and his suit Weis kept talking. Somewhere in the middle of his speech he stopped dissing and started selling. He talked about running the Patriots' offense and winning Super Bowls. About getting "nasty" on the field. At one point he told his new charges, "Every game, you will have a decided schematic advantage."
I was making light of the schematic advantage comment. :)
Oh I know, and you are right too. In this case i just happen to think its true. :)
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 01:31:09 pm
Oh I know, and you are right too. In this case i just happen to think its true. :)
It probably is true. Weis hasn't won anything since leaving the Pats. PA may have beaten his KU teams.
Quote from: blueandwhite on May 03, 2017, 01:04:53 pm
...there are students in Greenwood school's from Fort Smith.
This is all I was saying.
I am not a PA fan in any way but I have to respect what they have done. It's the perfect football situation at the moment....economic advantages, academic advantages, great football players that want to play there, great football players that figure out a way to play there, great players who know what it means to work for something, a great high school coach, and some parent boosters that make sure the football program has everything it needs. High school sports is about a community coming together. The PA football program has created it's own community. They have created pride in the brand and that is hard to do in Little Rock high school football.
I'm an LRCA supporter and we don't have all of that.
If it were simply about adding great players I would suggest looking at Robinson. Who has better athletes than Robinson? What have they won in 4A?
A private school with financial means has a huge advantage.
Any school with financial means has a huge advantage.
This thread:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/RL0xU1daTlMoE/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 03, 2017, 10:36:15 am
Why do you think they haven't lost a game in state in 3 years? Recruiting, cheating, paying players?
I think it's because its one of the wealthiest schools in the state that gives kids that go there every opportunity to succeed whether it be football, soccer, math or model UN. I think they have as good of a coaching staff as exists in the state. I think that many players are able to afford additional instruction like QB camps and D1 memberships. I think because of parent involvement, a level of commitment to be on the team is required that can not be accomplished most places (the coaches tell you when your family vacation will be). I think PA has schematic advantage over at least 95% of the teams that they play. I think that a tradition has been built that now attracts kids to play there because they know they will get exposure to colleges. I think the public schools in LR have been so bad that parents are forced to look for other alternatives, and PA is tied for the best alternative in LR. I think the average PA ACT is 27, which is in the 88th percentile nationally so the players are able to handle complex schemes more easily. I think about half the teams PA plays in state are beat before the game starts because they don't think they can beat PA. I think that while difficult to accept, graduates of PA are doing better in college and career than most high school graduates so it makes sense that they would have a record of success.
So that's what I think. But you think they cheat. So who knows who's right?
That pretty much sums it up, Red Devil Alum. So the question is: Do the socio-economic advantages of PA students allow for PA to compete fairly with schools populated primarily, and many almost totally, with students who live without those advantages. I don't know the answer, but this is the real question. None of the other arguments really matter. I've said several times on FF, PA is exceptional in that they have great coaches, tradition, .... The thing that sets them apart is the socio-economic advantage of their students. If some other private schools placed the same emphasis on football by employing an exceptional coach and putting in the effort made by PA athletes, parents and coaches, they would be just as good. Given the current socio-economic situation of public schools, they cannot develop the same "dynasty". Yes, one will come up with a very exceptional teams that will beat P.A., but year in and year out, of the 31 other teams in 5-A, no team other than another private school with the will to compete at the highest level, will be able to threaten the current P.A. dominance.
Just checking in after a long absence. I see things haven't changed much.
Speaking as a former Pioneer player, and a former PA (and Little Rock Central) dad, I think I can somewhat understand the various opinions, if not the vitriol behind them.
The best post on this threat is the guy up there beating the dead horse.
Thread, not threat. There are enough threats on here already.
Quote from: WMc on May 04, 2017, 09:16:53 am
Just checking in after a long absence. I see things haven't changed much.
Speaking as a former Pioneer player, and a former PA (and Little Rock Central) dad, I think I can somewhat understand the various opinions, if not the vitriol behind them.
The best post on this threat is the guy up there beating the dead horse.
Just continue to beat it to death.
The name of the thread should be self righteous elitist vs crybabies.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on May 04, 2017, 01:01:02 am
That pretty much sums it up, Red Devil Alum. So the question is: Do the socio-economic advantages of PA students allow for PA to compete fairly with schools populated primarily, and many almost totally, with students who live without those advantages. I don't know the answer, but this is the real question. None of the other arguments really matter. I've said several times on FF, PA is exceptional in that they have great coaches, tradition, .... The thing that sets them apart is the socio-economic advantage of their students. If some other private schools placed the same emphasis on football by employing an exceptional coach and putting in the effort made by PA athletes, parents and coaches, they would be just as good. Given the current socio-economic situation of public schools, they cannot develop the same "dynasty". Yes, one will come up with a very exceptional teams that will beat P.A., but year in and year out, of the 31 other teams in 5-A, no team other than another private school with the will to compete at the highest level, will be able to threaten the current P.A. dominance.
You know that I agree with you regarding the socioeconomic advantages of PA parents and students. That's why I'm in favor of success based classifications. I think that's the only way to try to even the playing field. Unfortunately, I doubt that it will ever happen in Arkansas.
I will say, however, that while the socioeconomic advantages play a role, that's not the only, or maybe even the major, factor in PA's success. Coaching plays a huge role and, as Red Devil noted, success breeds success.
Why do you think they haven't lost a game in state in 3 years? Recruiting, cheating, paying players?
I think it's because its one of the wealthiest schools in the state that gives kids that go there every opportunity to succeed whether it be football, soccer, math or model UN. I think they have as good of a coaching staff as exists in the state. I think that many players are able to afford additional instruction like QB camps and D1 memberships. I think because of parent involvement, a level of commitment to be on the team is required that can not be accomplished most places (the coaches tell you when your family vacation will be). I think PA has schematic advantage over at least 95% of the teams that they play. I think that a tradition has been built that now attracts kids to play there because they know they will get exposure to colleges. I think the public schools in LR have been so bad that parents are forced to look for other alternatives, and PA is tied for the best alternative in LR. I think the average PA ACT is 27, which is in the 88th percentile nationally so the players are able to handle complex schemes more easily. I think about half the teams PA plays in state are beat before the game starts because they don't think they can beat PA. I think that while difficult to accept, graduates of PA are doing better in college and career than most high school graduates so it makes sense that they would have a record of success.
So that's what I think. But you think they cheat. So who knows who's right?
Great argument! For why private schools should not compete in a public school organization. Take in 50% of your student body who score below acceptable levels on state testing and 70% who are on free lunch and see if the results are the same. You get to pick and choose who you get and that is a enormous advantage. I'm all for private schools if that is what you want. You choose private play in a private school league.
Quote from: PA Dad on May 04, 2017, 11:09:39 am
You know that I agree with you regarding the socioeconomic advantages of PA parents and students. That's why I'm in favor of success based classifications. I think that's the only way to try to even the playing field. Unfortunately, I doubt that it will ever happen in Arkansas.
I will say, however, that while the socioeconomic advantages play a role, that's not the only, or maybe even the major, factor in PA's success. Coaching plays a huge role and, as Red Devil noted, success breeds success.
So the greatest horse trainer in the world should be able to a mule to win the Kentucky derby?
Quote from: gameoflife on May 04, 2017, 12:28:15 pm
So the greatest horse trainer in the world should be able to a mule to win the Kentucky derby?
What are you wanting him to do to a mule? This is a family friendly website.
Quote from: gameoflife on May 04, 2017, 12:24:58 pm
Why do you think they haven't lost a game in state in 3 years? Recruiting, cheating, paying players?
I think it's because its one of the wealthiest schools in the state that gives kids that go there every opportunity to succeed whether it be football, soccer, math or model UN. I think they have as good of a coaching staff as exists in the state. I think that many players are able to afford additional instruction like QB camps and D1 memberships. I think because of parent involvement, a level of commitment to be on the team is required that can not be accomplished most places (the coaches tell you when your family vacation will be). I think PA has schematic advantage over at least 95% of the teams that they play. I think that a tradition has been built that now attracts kids to play there because they know they will get exposure to colleges. I think the public schools in LR have been so bad that parents are forced to look for other alternatives, and PA is tied for the best alternative in LR. I think the average PA ACT is 27, which is in the 88th percentile nationally so the players are able to handle complex schemes more easily. I think about half the teams PA plays in state are beat before the game starts because they don't think they can beat PA. I think that while difficult to accept, graduates of PA are doing better in college and career than most high school graduates so it makes sense that they would have a record of success.
So that's what I think. But you think they cheat. So who knows who's right?
Great argument! For why private schools should not compete in a public school organization. Take in 50% of your student body who score below acceptable levels on state testing and 70% who are on free lunch and see if the results are the same. You get to pick and choose who you get and that is a enormous advantage. I'm all for private schools if that is what you want. You choose private play in a private school league.
Dang it. I was so wanting to be done with this conversation. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm fine with a private school league if the AAA puts it together. But, as far as I know, that choice is out of my control. As far as I know, the private schools just play who/where they are told to play.
PA doesn't make the rules; they just do their best within the rules the AAA makes. Any argument that is going to make a difference is not with PA. I guess it is with AAA.
Other states have separate leagues for private schools, so it is something that could be done. I think it is more private schools that don't want it than public.
Quote from: game on on May 04, 2017, 12:48:01 pm
Other states have separate leagues for private schools, so it is something that could be done. I think it is more private schools that don't want it than public.
I still think it is ultimately up to the AAA, and the PA posters on this board have no control over that organization.
Quote from: PA Dad on May 04, 2017, 11:09:39 am
You know that I agree with you regarding the socioeconomic advantages of PA parents and students. That's why I'm in favor of success based classifications. I think that's the only way to try to even the playing field. Unfortunately, I doubt that it will ever happen in Arkansas.
I will say, however, that while the socioeconomic advantages play a role, that's not the only, or maybe even the major, factor in PA's success. Coaching plays a huge role and, as Red Devil noted, success breeds success.
You are correct, PA dad. To sum up my point:.
All other factors equal (coaching, facilities, ...), private schools will have the advantage based on opportunity provided by wealth.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on May 04, 2017, 09:52:26 pm
You are correct, PA dad. To sum up my point:. All other factors equal (coaching, facilities, ...), private schools will have the advantage based on opportunity provided by wealth.
Subiaco, LR Catholic, LR Episcopal, CAC, Baptist Prep, and LR Christian all hope that someday you are proven right. They are still waiting...
Quote from: BruinBacker on May 04, 2017, 11:05:26 pm
Subiaco, LR Catholic, LR Episcopal, CAC, Baptist Prep, and LR Christian all hope that someday you are proven right. They are still waiting...
They just have to place the same priority on winning as does PA. PA is all in, in the same manner as Wynne, but with advantages not found in that Delta town. I could say the same for a select few other programs, though few are truly all in. My point, ad nauseam, ALL other things even, PA will consistently win.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on May 05, 2017, 03:56:12 am
They just have to place the same priority on winning as does PA. PA is all in, in the same manner as Wynne, but with advantages not found in that Delta town. I could say the same for a select few other programs, though few are truly all in. My point, ad nauseam, ALL other things even, PA will consistently win.
Having money means little by itself, it's about how you spend it and what emphasis you place on athletics in particular.
Quote from: MB Hog on May 04, 2017, 01:19:28 pm
I still think it is ultimately up to the AAA, and the PA posters on this board have no control over that organization.
It is indeed ultimately up to the AAA but the Private schools have a lot more pull with them than you realize.
It's not up to the AAA. It's a voluntary organization. The privates could very easily start their own league and also have way more relaxed rules about recruiting. This is why it would would be terrible to force privates into their own league. They could be governed by their own organization.
Also, those privates named above, offer than Subiaco, have excelled in other sports. Why does everyone act like this is strictly to do with football? It's far bigger than that.
Quote from: MDXPHD on May 05, 2017, 04:01:49 pm
Also, those privates named above, offer than Subiaco, have excelled in other sports. Why does everyone act like this is strictly to do with football? It's far bigger than that.
Yep, Subi is in a unique situation, that is not really beneficial from an athletics standpoint. Many kids are from out of state and even out of country, therefore they don't have the benefit of summer workouts with new enrollees. They do have a pretty good basketball program though. Very well-coached too.
Im one of those that agrees with some who say if you choose a private school for your kids, then choose a private school athletic association as well. It is said that people choose private schools for the education benefit, but they play in the public school athletic organization because it is much better than a private school only situation would be, not to mention that a lot of kids would not go private if they couldn't play against the public schools. You have the opportunity to recruit kids from a larger area which allows a private school to get players from what would otherwise be a different school district. And yes I said recruit. That is what they do to keep their doors open, recruit students to go to school there.
So if you choose private take the good, education, with the bad, private school league athletics. They will not because private school athletic conferences would hurt them.
You guys that have a problem with privates because they "recruit" care to offer an opinion on the public schools that have billboards on the interstates and outside of other towns encouraging school choice?
Quote from: HorseFeathers on May 05, 2017, 08:51:17 pm
You guys that have a problem with privates because they "recruit" care to offer an opinion on the public schools that have billboards on the interstates and outside of other towns encouraging school choice?
That's not the problem at all. The numerous advantages are the problem.
Quote from: MDXPHD on May 05, 2017, 08:54:02 pm
That's not the problem at all. The numerous advantages are the problem.
Didn't say that was the problem....I could care less if privates recruit or not because I know plenty of public schools do it too....
I'm not for recruiting in any shape form or fashion and then playing in the public setting. But lets face it, private schools survive by recruiting the students that attend and they do so from a wide area.
If there was not a clear cut advantage for private schools over public schools then people would not send their children to private schools.
Private schools certainly have advantages and it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
For the first time in 10+ years, the semifinals for girls soccer didn't have a private school in them. Also, Maumelle girls have a chance to win this year, and they would be the only public school other than Harrison to win a 5A girls championship. Of course, they have to beat Harrison to win it.
I also saw where Trinity Christian won another track title. It's not surprising considering the amount of kids they have on scholarships that participate in track.
Private school league?
Since 2006
Siloam springs won 5A Volleyball 4 times
Nettleton won 5A volleyball 2 times
ValleyView has won the last two 5A titles and 6 state titles in 4A
Paragould won the two titles before that
Jonesboro Westside has won two state titles in 4A.
Brookland has won 3 state titles
Since 2006 in girls basketball
Watson Chapel has won two straight 5A championships
Riverview won two straight 3A titles in 2015-16
Malvern won two straight 4A titles in 2013-14
Camden Fairview won 2 straight state titles in 5A
Hot Springs, Paragould, Greenwood, And Vilonia all won one title in 5A.
No private school has ever won 5A girls basketball.
Quote from: MDXPHD on May 18, 2017, 08:19:46 am
For the first time in 10+ years, the semifinals for girls soccer didn't have a private school in them. Also, Maumelle girls have a chance to win this year, and they would be the only public school other than Harrison to win a 5A girls championship. Of course, they have to beat Harrison to win it.
I also saw where Trinity Christian won another track title. It's not surprising considering the amount of kids they have on scholarships that participate in track.
Again, with all factors equal, private schools will dominate. If girls basketball at PA was a top priority of the school, parents and players, and if they hire a top tier coach, they could have a dominant team. Even with that advantage, it would be difficult for any small-mid sized high school to dominate in more than a couple of sports due to the amount of time needed by each athlete to take the extra time to become their best (with the exception of one or possibly two "super athletes" most schools have). Even when private schools dominate in a prioritized sport most years, everyone will have a down year now and then, and a public school with whom they compete will come up with a great team with a great coach and Great support which will overcome the natural advantage of the private school. IMO
Quote from: CoachTaylorPA on May 18, 2017, 10:49:07 pm
Since 2006
Siloam springs won 5A Volleyball 4 times
Nettleton won 5A volleyball 2 times
ValleyView has won the last two 5A titles and 6 state titles in 4A
Paragould won the two titles before that
Jonesboro Westside has won two state titles in 4A.
Brookland has won 3 state titles
Since 2006 in girls basketball
Watson Chapel has won two straight 5A championships
Riverview won two straight 3A titles in 2015-16
Malvern won two straight 4A titles in 2013-14
Camden Fairview won 2 straight state titles in 5A
Hot Springs, Paragould, Greenwood, And Vilonia all won one title in 5A.
No private school has ever won 5A girls basketball.
Intelligentsia is correct. Wherever they choose to prioritize and want to win, they win. CAC does it in women's basketball and soccer. They don't push all of their funds to football like PA. By funds, I mean academic scholarships included. Trinity Christian does it for track.
What we really need to do is keep on this path of watering down the competition so everyone can get their feel good trophy. Make ten classifications, move private schools into a league of their own with 4 classifications. Then, nobody has to be especially upset anymore. We can also take the mercy rules and drop it to 15 points after one quarter. Why not take the same argument to the republican led government and convince them to increase the qualifications to be on welfare and level the playing field for everyone
Ok I apologize that might have offended someone
Quote from: 4real on May 19, 2017, 08:31:44 am
What we really need to do is keep on this path of watering down the competition so everyone can get their feel good trophy. Make ten classifications, move private schools into a league of their own with 4 classifications. Then, nobody has to be especially upset anymore. We can also take the mercy rules and drop it to 15 points after one quarter. Why not take the same argument to the republican led government and convince them to increase the qualifications to be on welfare and level the playing field for everyone
I don't think it's a "feel good" type scenario. There is so much more to it than just surface level arguments everyone sees.
I think we have a really good basketball coach. Rick Treadway is our coach and he worked at Sheridan for 20 years which may be where you have heard his name. Also our girls basketball team works extremely hard. Interesting that from the outside you would say our coach isn't top tier and that basketball isn't important. Also in regards to the East's dominance in volleyball championships would you say all factors are equal ? Do those programs work really hard with a great feeder system from youth to high school ? What is the reason for their success. Respectfully, CT
Quote from: Intelligentsia on May 19, 2017, 06:48:44 am
Again, with all factors equal, private schools will dominate. If girls basketball at PA was a top priority of the school, parents and players, and if they hire a top tier coach, they could have a dominant team. Even with that advantage, it would be difficult for any small-mid sized high school to dominate in more than a couple of sports due to the amount of time needed by each athlete to take the extra time to become their best (with the exception of one or possibly two "super athletes" most schools have). Even when private schools dominate in a prioritized sport most years, everyone will have a down year now and then, and a public school with whom they compete will come up with a great team with a great coach and Great support which will overcome the natural advantage of the private school. IMO
The advantage is in the opportunity for individual students to excel when they come from a family "of means". The next logical extension of that argument is that the greater number of players required for a specific game, the greater potential for advantage for a private school where relative wealth is prevalent. If I just have 6-8 girls, most (if not all) of whom have the parental means and support to fund their participation in "club" activities (particularly in v-ball), the advantage of the private school dwindles. It's the means of the parents that I believe makes the difference (in providing financial support for "club", camps, training, as well as the far greater home stability, support, .....). I don't know if you've taught in a public school setting, but I can tell you the economic status of the vast majority of the players in the successful Programs. They are teams made up of girls whose parents can afford to have them in club and who follow them all over the area. No, there is not an advantage in v-ball for private schools because it is made equal by the parents of means in the public school whose girls play. That, of course, in addition to some good coaching and school support. The same is not true of football. PA, by virtue of the number of parents who can provide the extras AND a stable home environment, will realize an advantage, all other things equal. I can't see how that is not absolutely obvious.
Quote from: CoachTaylorPA on May 19, 2017, 09:13:57 am
I think we have a really good basketball coach. Rick Treadway is our coach and he worked at Sheridan for 20 years which may be where you have heard his name. Also our girls basketball team works extremely hard. Interesting that from the outside you would say our coach isn't top tier and that basketball isn't important. Also in regards to the East's dominance in volleyball championships would you say all factors are equal ? Do those programs work really hard with a great feeder system from youth to high school ? What is the reason for their success. Respectfully, CT
Quote from: Intelligentsia on May 20, 2017, 12:00:47 am
The advantage is in the opportunity for individual students to excel when they come from a family "of means". The next logical extension of that argument is that the greater number of players required for a specific game, the greater potential for advantage for a private school where relative wealth is prevalent. If I just have 6-8 girls, most (if not all) of whom have the parental means and support to fund their participation in "club" activities (particularly in v-ball), the advantage of the private school dwindles. It's the means of the parents that I believe makes the difference (in providing financial support for "club", camps, training, as well as the far greater home stability, support, .....). I don't know if you've taught in a public school setting, but I can tell you the economic status of the vast majority of the players in the successful Programs. They are teams made up of girls whose parents can afford to have them in club and who follow them all over the area. No, there is not an advantage in v-ball for private schools because it is made equal by the parents of means in the public school whose girls play. That, of course, in addition to some good coaching and school support. The same is not true of football. PA, by virtue of the number of parents who can provide the extras AND a stable home environment, will realize an advantage, all other things equal. I can't see how that is not absolutely obvious.
It is obvious, to everyone but PA supporters. PA's success is not exclusively because of hard work and great coaching. They do have that, yes. The thing that sets them apart is money and no restriction of boundaries. They have a distinct and unfair advantage before they step on the field. An advantage that public schools cannot compete with. I wish it were 11 vs. 11 and may the best team win but there has been far too much evidence put forth, on this site, for that to be reality. But hey, it's just high school football and this is not the first time victory was bought, far from it.
I honestly don't think some of you even read the posts on this thread. I, and basically every PA poster on here, have said that PA and private schools have certain advantages stemming from money. Some of the NWA public schools have similar advantages. But no matter how many times it is said, someone like Jessie will then post "everyone but PA knows it has advantages." You can disagree with us on points, but instead you just act like the posts never happened.
But to minimize a three-peat to this rationale alone is a mistake. Also, this weekend there are 44 schools competing for baseball, soccer and softball championships. 40 of the 44 are public schools. PA wants to win a championship in baseball and soccer just as bad as it does in football.
I know this post will be turned around and misconstrued, as that's the only way this thread has reached 22 pages. I'll say my peace for the last time: PA, most private schools and some public schools that are "wealthy" do have advantages compared to schools that are not. PA doesn't recruit players by giving financial aid in exchange. PA didn't win its third straight championship because they changed uniforms at half or had a tent on the sidelines. There were 12 schools that played in the state finals last year, only one of them was a private school. Private schools represented a smaller percentage of teams in the finals than they do general representation in the AAA. When Kevin Kelley leaves PA, I strongly expect a drop off to occur.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on May 20, 2017, 09:23:30 am
I honestly don't think some of you even read the posts on this thread. I, and basically every PA poster on here, have said that PA and private schools have certain advantages stemming from money. Some of the NWA public schools have similar advantages. But no matter how many times it is said, someone like Jessie will then post "everyone but PA knows it has advantages." You can disagree with us on points, but instead you just act like the posts never happened.
But to minimize a three-peat to this rationale alone is a mistake. Also, this weekend there are 44 schools competing for baseball, soccer and softball championships. 40 of the 44 are public schools. PA wants to win a championship in baseball and soccer just as bad as it does in football.
I know this post will be turned around and misconstrued, as that's the only way this thread has reached 22 pages. I'll say my peace for the last time: PA, most private schools and some public schools that are "wealthy" do have advantages compared to schools that are not. PA doesn't recruit players by giving financial aid in exchange. PA didn't win its third straight championship because they changed uniforms at half or had a tent on the sidelines. There were 12 schools that played in the state finals last year, only one of them was a private school. Private schools represented a smaller percentage of teams in the finals than they do general representation in the AAA. When Kevin Kelley leaves PA, I strongly expect a drop off to occur.
Ehh, that's debatable. Most schools in Arkansas want s football one much more than any other sport. So it's not just PA.
My final post on this thread: I don't know what, if anything, should be done to address potential advantages held by private schools, but as I've mentioned earlier, considering the current political landscape, the issue will only become more prevalent. I can't see penalizing kids because of their economic situation, whether wealthy or poor; that to emphasize my relatively neutral status concerning this issue. I appreciate the acknowledgement of most P.A. posters concerning the potential advantage of private school sports programs, and I hope the AAA will address the situation thoughtfully in order to continuously seek a fair and equitable "playing field" for all schools, especially considering the likelihood the issue will grow. Unless it take an unexpected turn, that's all for me on this thread.
It's the foundational support that these private schools can provide, at home, in the way the kids are raised, the expectations that they have placed upon them, the facilities, the "extra" training and camps, the ability of mom and dad to make sure they are up, fed and at school every day on time and are asked about their day at the end of it. Come on the advantages are significant.
Quote from: Iknewthemwhen on May 20, 2017, 09:47:22 pm
It's the foundational support that these private schools can provide, at home, in the way the kids are raised, the expectations that they have placed upon them, the facilities, the "extra" training and camps, the ability of mom and dad to make sure they are up, fed and at school every day on time and are asked about their day at the end of it. Come on the advantages are significant.
And to be able to select only specific students. They can deny whoever they want. No esl kids. No special education. No free/reduced lunches. The list goes on and on about the advantages.
Quote from: CoachTaylorPA on May 18, 2017, 10:49:07 pm
Since 2006
Siloam springs won 5A Volleyball 4 times
Nettleton won 5A volleyball 2 times
ValleyView has won the last two 5A titles and 6 state titles in 4A
Paragould won the two titles before that
Jonesboro Westside has won two state titles in 4A.
Brookland has won 3 state titles
I'm not sure the VB comparison applies here. Yes, we would need to consider the effect of club VB but it is far easier (and less expensive) to secure higher level VB training and competition than it is in just about any other sport. That means proximity to areas where club VB is offered begins to matter more and NE and NW Arkansas have that advantage. I don't think the public v private consideration is nearly as important in VB than it might be in other sports.
Quote from: MDXPHD on May 05, 2017, 04:01:49 pm
It's not up to the AAA. It's a voluntary organization. The privates could very easily start their own league and also have way more relaxed rules about recruiting. This is why it would would be terrible to force privates into their own league. They could be governed by their own organization.
Also, those privates named above, offer than Subiaco, have excelled in other sports. Why does everyone act like this is strictly to do with football? It's far bigger than that.
Far bigger than what?
How's your research paper coming along, MDXPHD?
Time to discuss football! 8)
If anyone doesnt think private schools has a big advantage something wrong them! No sense in arguing with them!
Quote from: MDXPHD on May 20, 2017, 10:42:34 pm
And to be able to select only specific students. They can deny whoever they want. No esl kids. No special education. No free/reduced lunches. The list goes on and on about the advantages.
Totally agree. All I hear is that they are playing up because they have 3A enrollment. Their total student numbers may be 3A enrollment but their football team gets to pick and choose which students/athletes they want. I don't see many 5A rosters that don't have at least 4 or 5 players playing both ways and 3A schools definitely multiple players that do. How many does PA have playing both ways with the exception of the offensive linemen they use on third down occasionally against good running teams. Not to mention the number of players they have had over the last 10 years go on to play D1 football compared to other 3A or even 5A schools.
After much deliberations and soul searching, I have come to the conclusion that the only advantage that the private schools have is they can get athletes from a larger geographical area. Even I will argue is not much of an advantage if you look at all the transfers that happen between public schools.
Everything else (nice stadiums, coaches' salaries, nice uniforms, etc) all come down to where the governing body of the school wants to put their money. Every school (private and public) have some type of board that supervises the schools. Public schools have elected school boards and private schools all have some form of board of trustee or board of directors. They decide where the money is spent. Just look at the discrepancies in between public schools with their coaching salaries and facilities to see what I am talking about
Quote from: blueandwhite on August 28, 2017, 02:49:16 pm
After much deliberations and soul searching, I have come to the conclusion that the only advantage that the private schools have is they can get athletes from a larger geographical area. Even I will argue is not much of an advantage if you look at all the transfers that happen between public schools.
Everything else (nice stadiums, coaches' salaries, nice uniforms, etc) all come down to where the governing body of the school wants to put their money. Every school (private and public) have some type of board that supervises the schools. Public schools have elected school boards and private schools all have some form of board of trustee or board of directors. They decide where the money is spent. Just look at the discrepancies in between public schools with their coaching salaries and facilities to see what I am talking about
So neither cultural, socioeconomic, nor academic advantages (among others), realized by private school students provide an advantage? I appreciate your careful deliberation concerning this issue, but I would argue that research and logic point to a clear advantage in football, where a great number of players available provide a significant advantage. Combine those advantage with the issues you cite, student availability and school priority and you have the ingredients for a consistently dominant program. Have I mentioned this before? :)
Quote from: Intelligentsia on August 28, 2017, 04:10:05 pm
So neither cultural, socioeconomic, nor academic advantages (among others), realized by private school students provide an advantage? I appreciate your careful deliberation concerning this issue, but I would argue that research and logic point to a clear advantage in football, where a great number of players available provide a significant advantage. Combine those advantage with the issues you cite, student availability and school priority and you have the ingredients for a consistently dominant program. Have I mentioned this before? :)
You mean like Baptist Prep? LR Catholic? Conway Christian? Etc?
Quote from: Yellowcake on August 28, 2017, 08:31:30 pm
You mean like Baptist Prep? LR Catholic? Conway Christian? Etc?
I'm not sure what your asking, Yellow cake? Please read my post carefully, I'm choose my words carefully.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on August 28, 2017, 08:56:02 pm
I'm not sure what your asking, Yellow cake? Please read my post carefully, I'm choose my words carefully.
Just having the ingredients doesn't make a dominant program. Just like the schools Yellow Cake mentions. Takes a pretty good chef to put the ingredients together.
Quote from: Yellowcake on August 28, 2017, 08:31:30 pm
You mean like Baptist Prep? LR Catholic? Conway Christian? Etc?
After seeing Baptist Prep tonight, I don't think they have realized anything from the advantages listed
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on August 28, 2017, 09:30:25 pm
Just having the ingredients doesn't make a dominant program. Just like the schools Yellow Cake mentions. Takes a pretty good chef to put the ingredients together.
I believe I was clear in making that point, though it does not diminish the undeniable potential of private schools to capitalize on the obvious advantages I mentioned above and in previous posts.
This horse was dead three years ago. Let's beat it some more!
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on August 28, 2017, 09:32:03 pm
After seeing Baptist Prep tonight, I don't think they have realized anything from the advantages listed
Simply because they have not made winning a priority for one sport means nothing. They have obviously placed a high priority on boys basketball, and given the advantages, they are a dominant program. Deny the advantages of private schools in areas of priority and you simply sound defensive, at best.
They play other boys/girls sports also and here is a list of the past state champs and state runner-ups Top Ten of 58 boys/58 girls games in that other Spring sport. This includes teams 7A and below. Some of them have done very well for being a small school compared to the larger public schools.
STATE CHAMPIONSHIP AND RUNNER-UP RECORDS
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Overall State Boys/Girls Championships for all Conferences
12 Bentonville (4B / 8G)
12 Harrison (6B / 6G)
10 Searcy (6B / 4G)
9 Pulaski Academy (3B / 6G)
9 Central Arkansas Christian (2B / 7G)
8 Siloam Springs (4B / 4G)
6 Little Rock Christian (3B / 3G)
6 De Queen (6B)
5 Fayetteville (1B / 4G)
5 LR Catholic (5B)
Overall State Boys/Girls Runner-ups for all Conferences
8 Pulaski Academy (3B / 5G)
6 LR Christian (1B / 5G)
6 Searcy (2B / 4G)
6 Fayetteville (6G)
6 Central Arkansas Christian (4B / 2G)
6 Mtn Home (5B / 1G)
6 Russellville (3B / 3G)
5 Siloam Springs (4B / 1G)
4 Mount St. Mary (4G)
4 LR Central (2B / 2G)
(http://i.imgur.com/WTDnnwE.gif?noredirect)
Whooped this dead horse sufficiently.😎. I now occurs to me that I previously committed to cease posting to this thread; I am old and forgetful. So, in the words of a great American icon, "And that's all I've got to say about that".
Quote from: Intelligentsia on August 29, 2017, 06:28:56 am
Whooped this dead horse sufficiently.😎. I now occurs to me that I previously committed to cease posting to this thread; I am old and forgetful. So, in the words of a great American icon, "And that's all I've got to say about that".
Have yourself a chocolate 😀
I decided to sit out this thread (yet here I am, I guess I am slow) because of an article I read. The article was referring to basketball in large cities but it very much applies. It said that there is one glaring advantage public school have over private schools in the world of athletics, the public's respect. For all the advantages private schools enjoy, financial, drawing area and numerous others, the thing the kids don't have is the chance to bask in the glory of victory unfettered. The perceived advantages of a private school are always attached like an asterisk to their titles and that is grossly unfair to the kids. When a public school wins a title the kids walk the malls, restaurants and other gathering places like conquering victors. Kids from private schools are treated with gossip, whispers and sentences that start with "of course they won, they have....".
Say what you want about private schools, I have said as much as anyone, but at least let teenage kids enjoy the fruits of their labor. Even if private schools have the many advantages listed here, ad nauseam, the kids still sacrifice their summers and free time. They are still at school working hard hours after the rest of the student body has gone home. They still have to prove it between the lines. Newspaper articles, television interviews and posters in the school hallways are nice but what champions truly want is respect from their peers. Private school rarely get that and when your talking about kids that's just not fair.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on August 29, 2017, 07:24:48 am
Have yourself a chocolate 😀
That's always a good idea! :)
I was sincerely asking how Mr.Phd was coming along on his paper and findings and everyone goes silent? :-\
New to this, maybe it has been answered before, but why don't the private schools have their own league?
Quote from: Intelligentsia on August 28, 2017, 04:10:05 pm
So neither cultural, socioeconomic, nor academic advantages (among others), realized by private school students provide an advantage? I appreciate your careful deliberation concerning this issue, but I would argue that research and logic point to a clear advantage in football, where a great number of players available provide a significant advantage. Combine those advantage with the issues you cite, student availability and school priority and you have the ingredients for a consistently dominant program. Have I mentioned this before? :)
You have the cultural, socioeconomic, academic advantages discrepancies between different public schools too. So now instead of public and private school debate, we now have rich public schools vs poor public schools vs private schools debate. Maybe instead of classifying by school enrollment, we need to classify by maybe average income of families going to that school or by test scores of the students.
Blueandwhite, Indeed there are advantages between public schools. To clarify, I have not advocated for changes to the current system of classification, though a limited fluid reclassification of schools based achievement is an interesting idea.
JessieP, I agree that Private School kids, coaches, and parents should be recognized for their achievements. The point I make about the advantages they realize is simply to say that their success is also influenced by nature of affluence. I have not advocated anything being done to alter the current system, though I wish something could be done to address the disparity in the quality of educational opportunities for many inner city and Delta schools in Arkansas.
What is the record number of pages for a post on FF?
I believe that private institutions have more flexibility on where they choose to spend their money. The public schools are subject to evaluation according to state dept of Ed rules.
This debate will never be solved, as long as the two play in the same organization. It is what it is, as they say.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on August 30, 2017, 09:24:25 pm
Wow....dare I ask the subject?
It's about current gas prices in various locales. Seriously.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on August 30, 2017, 09:56:03 pm
It's about current gas prices in various locales. Seriously.
I started to guess that. Thanks for the info. Btw, its 2.09 on Hwy 10 murphys in LR
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on August 30, 2017, 10:01:45 pm
I started to guess that. Thanks for the info. Btw, its 2.09 on Hwy 10 murphys in LR
😂
It's like 2.03 at the Kroger in Maumelle. Or it was earlier this week. $2 even with a Kroger card. Then again, with as many groceries as we buy every week, I can't remember the last time I've paid more than $1.80.
Paragould beat Jonesboro in volleyball this week. 5A beating 6A. With Paragould's past volleyball and girls basketball championships, not to mention State Band Championship, it shows that a private school advantage is certainly effective.........
Oh, wait. Paragould is a public school. Sorry about that.....my mistake.
Quote from: HorseFeathers on August 30, 2017, 04:30:16 pm
110
The soccer thread will break that one day.... because us soccer hooligans down there are on a trajectory of posts that can't be matched :D
How many kids does PA have as an average per grade 9th-12th grade right now? My guess is the numbers say they are a 3A school probably then bumped to 4A because they are obviously a private school. Then throw in they play one classification higher upon request. What else do you guys want them to do? Go up to 7A?
Quote from: beach bum on August 30, 2017, 10:42:40 pm
How many kids does PA have as an average per grade 9th-12th grade right now? My guess is the numbers say they are a 3A school probably then bumped to 4A because they are obviously a private school. Then throw in they play one classification higher upon request. What else do you guys want them to do? Go up to 7A?
I don't know the exact number but PA has historically averaged about 100 students per grade.
By the way, I'm not adverse to PA moving up in classification.
Quote from: beach bum on August 30, 2017, 10:29:58 pm
The soccer thread will break that one day.... because us soccer hooligans down there are on a trajectory of posts that can't be matched :D
^^^^^^^This is true due to the fact that this World wide sport is played all year, not just for a season like football.
But,
Doesn't this forum's topic come up on the other sport's forums also? I wonder how many pages added together of all of them would this topic have then?
Quote from: beach bum on August 30, 2017, 10:29:58 pm
The soccer thread will break that one day.... because us soccer hooligans down there are on a trajectory of posts that can't be matched :D
you mean Futbol? :D
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on August 30, 2017, 09:56:03 pm
It's about current gas prices in various locales. Seriously.
That is a thread that always stays current.
Quote from: PA Dad on August 30, 2017, 11:11:40 pm
I don't know the exact number but PA has historically averaged about 100 students per grade.
By the way, I'm not adverse to PA moving up in classification.
Agreed. PA should move up to 6A in football for the next cycle.
In the latest AAA census PA had like 310 students. LRCA was at 500 if I remember correctly.
Quote from: PA Dad on August 30, 2017, 11:11:40 pm
I don't know the exact number but PA has historically averaged about 100 students per grade.
By the way, I'm not adverse to PA moving up in classification.
I would like them to take a really particularly good group of classes at PA(even though they're all good)..... And move them up to 7A once for a 2 year cycle. Just speaking as a fan from the outside wanting to see interesting and unique competition. That would be fun to see them do that.
Quote from: beach bum on August 31, 2017, 05:05:17 pm
I would like them to take a really particularly good group of classes at PA(even though they're all good)..... And move them up to 7A once for a 2 year cycle. Just speaking as a fan from the outside wanting to see interesting and unique competition. That would be fun to see them do that.
I agree. It would be fun to watch.
Moving up is a bigger test of physical stamina. That becomes tougher when you play better and bigger folks every game. If they can do that they can compete. Of course that means it would support the idea that private schools have advantages, huh? Couldn't resist!
Moving this back to the top for reference purposes only.
For the person willing to read through this thread, several good discussions and points can be found.
Quote from: Iknewthemwhen on September 02, 2017, 10:04:33 am
Moving up is a bigger test of physical stamina. That becomes tougher when you play better and bigger folks every game. If they can do that they can compete. Of course that means it would support the idea that private schools have advantages, huh? Couldn't resist!
No way Pulaski Academy can hang every week against the larger classifications. Having PA ranked higher than 3rd or 4th overall in any given year is a farce. Get real....
GO BULLDOGS!!!
Quote from: bulldogger15 on October 17, 2017, 04:20:37 pm
No way Pulaski Academy can hang every week against the larger classifications.
What??
Am I asleep on here?? SMH
Quote from: PrivateLesson on October 17, 2017, 05:09:26 pm
What??
Not going to happen Privates Lesson. Injuries and attrition would set in by week 5 and by week 10 they would be a shell of their former selves. Recruiting gets you good #1's, but no depth for the Bruins unless PA starts recruiting more nationally.
GO BULLDOGS!!!
Quote from: bulldogger15 on October 17, 2017, 06:26:42 pm
Not going to happen Privates Lesson. Injuries and attrition would set in by week 5 and by week 10 they would be a shell of their former selves. Recruiting gets you good #1's, but no depth for the Bruins unless PA starts recruiting more nationally.
GO BULLDOGS!!!
Huh?? Forgive me but I know I read somewhere that you were wanting PA to move up classifications? No?
Quote from: PrivateLesson on October 17, 2017, 09:05:36 pm
Huh?? Forgive me but I know I read somewhere that you were wanting PA to move up classifications? No?
Yes, you are right. They would quickly see how it is to play the big boys on a regular basis, especially late in the season. PA couldn't hang for a couple reasons I stated above. Very soft on the depth side.
Big realty check for Pulaski Academy football if they played up where they should be playing.
GO BULLDOGS!!!
I'm sorry, the reality is that myself and MDXPHD have been unseated in a landslide. Bulldogger15 is by a wide margin the most obsessed person on the planet. PA's success is such a threat to his happiness it's borderline disturbing. He can't seem to process that Greenwood and PA have played, and split the games. I am going to start an online petition asking the administration and coaching staff at PA to issue a public apology. Their success and National attention are causing him great pain. They need to explain that they cannot control the fact that ESPN, Fox Sports, College Game Day, USA Today, E:6o and a few others came to them. They cannot control numerous National outlets came to them requesting to do a feature, they can't control the media. I would also ask they include a little tip, tell him if you want that kind of exposure the next time you move up a class, win it all, consistently. Winning the title 3 times in 5 years is a dynasty, winning it 1 time in 5 years is nice but not overly impressive. Maybe then he can get on with his life. I swear, I can picture bulldogger15 standing over PA and saying "it puts the lotion on it's skin or else it gets the hose again".
Pa goes as Kelley goes.
When He leaves, and I hope he retires there, the playing field will even quickly
Yellow, I'm not totally disagreeing, but you aren't giving any credit to the boys that put in the time. Kk could leave And if anyone on staff stayed , they still have a couple of good years.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on October 17, 2017, 10:09:33 pm
Yellow, I'm not totally disagreeing, but you aren't giving any credit to the boys that put in the time. Kk could leave And if anyone on staff stayed , they still have a couple of good years.
Oh, I agree with that. For sure.
I am talking about sustained domination for a period of many years, the likes of which we have been enjoying.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on October 17, 2017, 10:09:33 pm
Yellow, I'm not totally disagreeing, but you aren't giving any credit to the boys that put in the time. Kk could leave And if anyone on staff stayed , they still have a couple of good years.
I don't know about a couple of years. The DC left after last season and the defense is a joke. Yes, a joke. The offense is typical KK, efficient, disciplined, precise and dominating. Many people have commented about the DB's being weak. After finally watching some video's of them this year it's pretty clear the entire defense is iffy. A big physical team would have it's way with them, the problem is no one in the 5A can stop that offense. Last year PA shut down a dominating Wynne offense. The DC left and now they can't shut down anyone. LRCA put up more yards against PA the they did mediocre teams. If KK left the offense wouldn't drop off as quick as the defense did but it would be dramatic. I starting to rethink my "Kelly is overrated" stance. He may very well be the best coach in high school football, although I feel King is right there, but the fact is that PA is not athletic, they are not physical and the kids don't work any harder then anyone else, they win because of the coach. I HATE to admit it but he very well may have massive success at any school.
Quote from: JessieP on October 17, 2017, 11:32:06 pm
I don't know about a couple of years. The DC left after last season and the defense is a joke. Yes, a joke. The offense is typical KK, efficient, disciplined, precise and dominating. Many people have commented about the DB's being weak. After finally watching some video's of them this year it's pretty clear the entire defense is iffy. A big physical team would have it's way with them, the problem is no one in the 5A can stop that offense. Last year PA shut down a dominating Wynne offense. The DC left and now they can't shut down anyone. LRCA put up more yards against PA the they did mediocre teams. If KK left the offense wouldn't drop off as quick as the defense did but it would be dramatic. I starting to rethink my "Kelly is overrated" stance. He may very well be the best coach in high school football, although I feel King is right there, but the fact is that PA is not athletic, they are not physical and the kids don't work any harder then anyone else, they win because of the coach. I HATE to admit it but he very well may have massive success at any school.
Geez, Jessie, I hate to agree with you, but I think you're right that the loss of Coach Wood hurt us bigtime. Our run defense is still good, but our pass defense needs lots of work.
It does say something about the importance of coaching.
Quote from: PA Dad on October 18, 2017, 12:47:24 am
Geez, Jessie, I hate to agree with you, but I think you're right that the loss of Coach Wood hurt us bigtime. Our run defense is still good, but our pass defense needs lots of work.
It does say something about the importance of coaching.
It's not easy for me to admit when I'm wrong Dad (that sounds weird, should I call you PA? Dad? or combine them into a clever nickname like P Daddy?) I have been very vocal (running my mouth) about labeling KK a genius, after actually watching a fair amount of video one fact stands out. The recruiting issue, holds no water. Superior athlete's, almost laughable. Works harder, equally as laughable. What you see is stout offensive schemes executed almost flawlessly and a very pedestrian defense. Last year PA was equally as average athletically but their defense worked like a machine. The guy is doing something right. It was either you, Yellowcake or Red Devil that once commented that more often then not the opposing team has more athletes then PA. Let's be honest, if you took someone from another state and had them watch both PA and Batesville's teams in shorts and t-shirts, they could run around, lift weights and play basketball. If you had them guess which team would win a football game, 99 out of 100 would pick Batesville. That speaks to the skill of KK and his staff. In the hypothetical PA/Greenwood match-up who do I think would win? whoever got the ball first. two incredible teams like that would score every possession. Greenwoods D is light years ahead of PA's D but PA's O is equally superior to Greenwoods. You have often said if a team could get 4 or 5 stops on PA they could probably win, that's one heck of an "if".
I understand Coach Kings reluctance to participate in the 7 on 7 summer activities like many others. That said, it occurs to me that the repetition on offense, and likely very rigorous summer "practice," are key factor in separating PA from the pack. And while I agree that KK is quite good, the third factor which I bring up QUITE often is the financial "advantage" issue which allows for both private lessons/expensive camps AND a more "care free" life for the average PA athlete. So, I'll contend it's three factors, two of which are related: Coaching/focused summer skill development and economic advantage.
Quote from: JessieP on October 18, 2017, 01:27:12 am
It's not easy for me to admit when I'm wrong Dad (that sounds weird, should I call you PA? Dad? or combine them into a clever nickname like P Daddy?) I have been very vocal (running my mouth) about labeling KK a genius, after actually watching a fair amount of video one fact stands out. The recruiting issue, holds no water. Superior athlete's, almost laughable. Works harder, equally as laughable. What you see is stout offensive schemes executed almost flawlessly and a very pedestrian defense. Last year PA was equally as average athletically but their defense worked like a machine. The guy is doing something right. It was either you, Yellowcake or Red Devil that once commented that more often then not the opposing team has more athletes then PA. Let's be honest, if you took someone from another state and had them watch both PA and Batesville's teams in shorts and t-shirts, they could run around, lift weights and play basketball. If you had them guess which team would win a football game, 99 out of 100 would pick Batesville. That speaks to the skill of KK and his staff. In the hypothetical PA/Greenwood match-up who do I think would win? whoever got the ball first. two incredible teams like that would score every possession. Greenwoods D is light years ahead of PA's D but PA's O is equally superior to Greenwoods. You have often said if a team could get 4 or 5 stops on PA they could probably win, that's one heck of an "if".
Good post. You've hit on a point that drives much of the disagreement on this board when it comes to PA. PA fans read about "recruiting" and "superior athletes" and have to laugh, because as you point out PA is not particularly big or fast. So those things always bother me as an excuse for the run of championships. Now I have admitted that there are advantages to being PA as compared to most of the rest of 5A and it's definitely helped, but recruiting just isn't it.
Quote from: Yellowcake on October 17, 2017, 10:04:07 pm
Pa goes as Kelley goes.
When He leaves, and I hope he retires there, the playing field will even quickly
I heard rumors that they are going to rename the football field, practice field, indoor facility and the high school wing of PA to "KelleysWorld"
Quote from: Intelligentsia on October 18, 2017, 06:49:45 am
I understand Coach Kings reluctance to participate in the 7 on 7 summer activities like many others. That said, it occurs to me that the repetition on offense, and likely very rigorous summer "practice," are key factor in separating PA from the pack. And while I agree that KK is quite good, the third factor which I bring up QUITE often is the financial "advantage" issue which allows for both private lessons/expensive camps AND a more "care free" life for the average PA athlete. So, I'll contend it's three factors, two of which are related: Coaching/focused summer skill development and economic advantage.
In a long ago thread about how to beat PA, CoachTaylorPA noted the importance of 7 on 7 competition. In the last Shootout of the South 7x7 tourney, the following Ark teams participated: PA, Warren, Searcy, Springdale, Greenbrier, NLR, Heber Springs, Clinton, Fayetteville, CAC and LR Catholic. Per Hooten's latest rankings, all but CAC and Heber Springs are in the top ten of their respective classification. It is quite a mixture pf private and public schools, well to do and not as well to do schools and big and small schools. The "financial" advantage is not shared by all of the participants. If you are a passing team, 7X7 games help you work on your game. Less obvious is the benefit of being able to practice your defense against passing teams.
^ Maumelle was there too, unless I'm thinking of a different event.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on October 18, 2017, 08:56:28 am
Good post. You've hit on a point that drives much of the disagreement on this board when it comes to PA. PA fans read about "recruiting" and "superior athletes" and have to laugh, because as you point out PA is not particularly big or fast. So those things always bother me as an excuse for the run of championships. Now I have admitted that there are advantages to being PA as compared to most of the rest of 5A and it's definitely helped, but recruiting just isn't it.
In this thread, it has been pointed out how many d-1 players PA has produced...they may not "look" like superior athletes, but when a 3A school has 5-7 division one players on it's roster grades 10-12 (not just once, but consistently), then I would venture to say that they absolutely have "superior athletes." You can disagree because of the eye test..but that's not all you have to look at.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 18, 2017, 09:21:07 am
In a long ago thread about how to beat PA, CoachTaylorPA noted the importance of 7 on 7 competition. In the last Shootout of the South 7x7 tourney, the following Ark teams participated: PA, Warren, Searcy, Springdale, Greenbrier, NLR, Heber Springs, Clinton, Fayetteville, CAC and LR Catholic. Per Hooten's latest rankings, all but CAC and Heber Springs are in the top ten of their respective classification. It is quite a mixture pf private and public schools, well to do and not as well to do schools and big and small schools. The "financial" advantage is not shared by all of the participants. If you are a passing team, 7X7 games help you work on your game. Less obvious is the benefit of being able to practice your defense against passing teams.
Also has a pretty big conditioning aspect in particular for the warm weather start of the season
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 18, 2017, 10:13:29 am
In this thread, it has been pointed out how many d-1 players PA has produced...they may not "look" like superior athletes, but when a 3A school has 5-7 division one players on it's roster grades 10-12 (not just once, but consistently), then I would venture to say that they absolutely have "superior athletes." You can disagree because of the eye test..but that's not all you have to look at.
Superior athlete is an interesting concept in that a very well trained athlete who reacts quickly and properly (either reading offensive or defensive keys) can play faster. i can't remember his name off hand but Florida had a middle LB during the Tebow years who ran about a 5.0 40 but was a first round draft pick and excellent pro LB mainly because of his reads/reaction time. He was just always in the right place at the right time and just played fast and could tackle although he wasn't fast
I thought I knew who you were referring to, but I was incorrect....nm
Quote from: sevenof400 on October 18, 2017, 10:42:58 am
I thought I knew who you were referring to, but I was incorrect....nm
Brandon Spikes is who came to my mind. I was always amazed that a guy as slow as me could go in the first round and it be justified ;D
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 18, 2017, 10:13:29 am
In this thread, it has been pointed out how many d-1 players PA has produced...they may not "look" like superior athletes, but when a 3A school has 5-7 division one players on it's roster grades 10-12 (not just once, but consistently), then I would venture to say that they absolutely have "superior athletes." You can disagree because of the eye test..but that's not all you have to look at.
I am not going turncoat on you but chew on this. When I say "recruiting" or "Superior Athlete" I picture 6'4, 235lbs. Now this may make me sound elitist but when I say D1 players I'm thinking ACC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac-12 and SEC. If PA was producing 5-7 players a year that were getting full rides to those teams I'd carry the "they recruit" flag. A school that size that produced those kind of players would be questionable. A lot of the players you mentioned went to schools like UCA, Southern Missouri and places like that, there were also many walk-ons. Now I am not disparaging the smaller schools, it is an accomplishment to play at any college, I salute those players, but an average sized, average abilities football player can achieve a scholarship to an FCS school through work ethic and good coaching. Look at the present PA qb, good player, solid athlete and great leader. Through PA's system and coaching his football iq is off the charts, to me he is the epitome of a made player. ASU has offered him, that's a testament to hark work and good coaching. The reality is that it no matter how smart/well coached he is Ohio State isn't interested. That's not a knock on him, that's a knock on the "they recruit" debate. When I hear they produce 5-7 scholarship players a year I'm picturing a dozen coaches on the sidelines holding stop watches, clipboards and wearing Oklahoma, Alabama, Michigan, UCLA and Notre Dame golf shirts. You don't see that at PA.
D-1 isn't just power five conferences. C'mon man!
And I don't doubt they work hard. But you don't think these kids are naturally talented? Respectfully, I think you're way off on your assessment on what a D-1 player is. Walk on, lower tier school, etc., They're still much better athletes than what the majority of other teams consist of. That can't be disputed.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 18, 2017, 11:48:21 am
D-1 isn't just power five conferences. C'mon man!
And I don't doubt they work hard. But you don't think these kids are naturally talented? Respectfully, I think you're way off on your assessment on what a D-1 player is. Walk on, lower tier school, etc., They're still much better athletes than what the majority of other teams consist of. That can't be disputed.
Hey, I'm as open as anyone to bring the recruiting charge. I also am open to facts. Why can no one who questions their practices explain the fact that the vast majority of their athletes started there in 1st grade? do they expect me to believe they combed the kindergartens? that right there is the missing link. Heck, I'd be will to go as far as 7th grade. If a lot of PA football players started at the school in the 7th grade I'd buy the recruiting narrative. They didn't, almost all of them started in elementary school. That right there is one massive missing link. How is that possible? Are they recruiting 5 year olds? Every father of a 5 year old boy believes his Son will be a pro athlete, most are wrong. Whenever PA posters state that over 90% of the team started in 1st grade at PA the recruiting people go dead silent. Any thoughts?
Quote from: JessieP on October 18, 2017, 12:02:45 pm
Hey, I'm as open as anyone to bring the recruiting charge. I also am open to facts. Why can no one who questions their practices explain the fact that the vast majority of their athletes started there in 1st grade? do they expect me to believe they combed the kindergartens? that right there is the missing link. Heck, I'd be will to go as far as 7th grade. If a lot of PA football players started at the school in the 7th grade I'd buy the recruiting narrative. They didn't, almost all of them started in elementary school. That right there is one massive missing link. How is that possible? Are they recruiting 5 year olds? Every father of a 5 year old boy believes his Son will be a pro athlete, most are wrong. Whenever PA posters state that over 90% of the team started in 1st grade at PA the recruiting people go dead silent. Any thoughts?
I'm not saying they recruit. I'm saying they have better athletes than the majority of 5A schools. Athletes probably choose to go there, and if they can get financial aid and attend a school with the exposure of PA, why not go?
I would say the biggest difference is the coaching! PA doesn't necessarily have better athletes than most 5A schools, but they have some of the best coaches in 5A or any classification for that matter! Kelley is the master of matchups and schemes to put his kids in the Best situation, and opposing teams in a mismatch.
Quote from: STBruin on October 18, 2017, 12:18:18 pm
I would say the biggest difference is the coaching! PA doesn't necessarily have better athletes than most 5A schools, but they have some of the best coaches in 5A or any classification for that matter! Kelley is the master of matchups and schemes to put his kids in the Best situation, and opposing teams in a mismatch.
Of course you would lol.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 18, 2017, 12:06:20 pm
I'm not saying they recruit. I'm saying they have better athletes than the majority of 5A schools. Athletes probably choose to go there, and if they can get financial aid and attend a school with the exposure of PA, why not go?
Again it doesn't address the issue. They choose to go there in 1st grade? do superior athletes start to show signs of athleticism in kindergarten? I was ask to coach t-ball a few years ago. I didn't see anything that led me to believe any of the kids would become a star football player. Maybe I wasn't looking. Do the stars chase more bugs in the outfield? Do they spend more time staring at the Med Star helicopter landing at WRMC? Do they pick their noses with more/less frequency? I have been a pretty die hard sports fan since I was 7. I can't seem see superior talent in 5 year olds. Apparently the coaches and parents of PA players can.
Quote from: JessieP on October 18, 2017, 12:56:13 pm
Again it doesn't address the issue. They choose to go there in 1st grade? do superior athletes start to show signs of athleticism in kindergarten? I was ask to coach t-ball a few years ago. I didn't see anything that led me to believe any of the kids would become a star football player. Maybe I wasn't looking. Do the stars chase more bugs in the outfield? Do they spend more time staring at the Med Star helicopter landing at WRMC? Do they pick their noses with more/less frequency? I have been a pretty die hard sports fan since I was 7. I can't seem see superior talent in 5 year olds. Apparently the coaches and parents of PA players can.
I think you're missing the point. Kids who normally couldn't attend a school like PA, yet they get the chance to because of financial aid, seem to do so more for football than for any other sport and actually more for football than the total financial aid ratio of their school. So yes, looking at numbers, it seems that football is a big influence.
But, if you are legitimately asking if you can tell if a kid is a good athlete in grade school, then the answer is yes. Although that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 18, 2017, 12:06:20 pm
I'm not saying they recruit. I'm saying they have better athletes than the majority of 5A schools. Athletes probably choose to go there, and if they can get financial aid and attend a school with the exposure of PA, why not go?
If PA were recruiting, their roster would look like an all star team which it does not. But, I agree there is a "build it and they will come" aspect to successful programs. If parents have the means and football backgrounds/interest themselves, PA is an attractive option in greater Little Rock. If you happened to be a college athlete, you have a pretty good idea whether your first grader got the same physical attributes or not and you probably have more than a passing interest in athletics. That is why I also believe a move up in classification is as much reward as punishment, i.e more high profile games = more interest/exposure to potential athlete enrollees
Visiting the state fair livestock exhibits, I was thrown back to the days when I achieved the rank of Chapter Farmer in the FFA, and then it hit me! The answer is breeding. Just as the cattle farmers pay attention to their livestock with selective breeding programs to produce the better offspring, so it has been in the PA community. It's all about the breeding. No need to recruit with an excellent breeding program. Saavy?
Excuse me, as I feel the urge to take a smoke break 😏
Build it and they will come.................
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 18, 2017, 01:33:59 pm
Visiting the state fair livestock exhibits, I was thrown back to the days when I achieved the rank of Chapter Farmer in the FFA, and then it hit me! The answer is breeding. Just as the cattle farmers pay attention to their livestock with selective breeding programs to produce the better offspring, so it has been in the PA community. It's all about the breeding. No need to recruit with an excellent breeding program. Saavy?
Excuse me, as I feel the urge to take a smoke break 😏
I mean, if you have the money to genetically engineer superior football players, why wouldn't you?
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 18, 2017, 01:33:59 pm
Visiting the state fair livestock exhibits, I was thrown back to the days when I achieved the rank of Chapter Farmer in the FFA, and then it hit me! The answer is breeding. Just as the cattle farmers pay attention to their livestock with selective breeding programs to produce the better offspring, so it has been in the PA community. It's all about the breeding. No need to recruit with an excellent breeding program. Saavy?
Excuse me, as I feel the urge to take a smoke break 😏
Come on Man! If this was the program there wouldn't be any weaknesses :D
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 18, 2017, 01:33:59 pm
Visiting the state fair livestock exhibits, I was thrown back to the days when I achieved the rank of Chapter Farmer in the FFA, and then it hit me! The answer is breeding. Just as the cattle farmers pay attention to their livestock with selective breeding programs to produce the better offspring, so it has been in the PA community. It's all about the breeding. No need to recruit with an excellent breeding program. Saavy?
Excuse me, as I feel the urge to take a smoke break 😏
Somewhere, behind a cigarette smoke cloud, Steve Perry smiles.....
maybe
Would you put PA in the same category as schools like Mater Dei, IMG Academy, Centennial, American Heritage, Bishop Gorman? To name a few?
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 18, 2017, 03:03:07 pm
Would you put PA in the same category as schools like Mater Dei, IMG Academy, Centennial, American Heritage, Bishop Gorman? To name a few?
IMG is it's own category I think.
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 18, 2017, 03:03:07 pm
Would you put PA in the same category as schools like Mater Dei, IMG Academy, Centennial, American Heritage, Bishop Gorman? To name a few?
No PA supporter would put them in that category. When that stupid "Kevin Kelly should coach the Razorbacks" thread was going on I said if you took our 2 centerpieces, Greenwood and PA, and put them in a league with IMG, Allen, Bishop Gorman, Mater Dei, De La Salle, Centennial, St Joes and Heritage they would both go 1-8 and 0-9. The only victory would come against each other. They would probably be mercy ruled in every game as well.
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 18, 2017, 03:03:07 pm
Would you put PA in the same category as schools like Mater Dei, IMG Academy, Centennial, American Heritage, Bishop Gorman? To name a few?
read some threads; nobody is doing that. Heck, LRCA is not gonna lay 56 on any top 20 team for crying out loud
Quote from: JessieP on October 18, 2017, 03:41:30 pm
No PA supporter would put them in that category. When that stupid "Kevin Kelly should coach the Razorbacks" thread was going on I said if you took our 2 centerpieces, Greenwood and PA, and put them in a league with IMG, Allen, Bishop Gorman, Mater Dei, De La Salle, Centennial, St Joes and Heritage they would both go 1-8 and 0-9. The only victory would come against each other. They would probably be mercy ruled in every game as well.
Maybe not mercy ruled; not sure if every state has that rule ;)
Quote from: Overdahill on October 18, 2017, 04:08:22 pm
Maybe not mercy ruled; not sure if every state has that rule ;)
Touche! I hope you realize I was not knocking PA. I was stating that some of those schools are admitted football factories. A lot of the schools out in Texas, Florida and California have enrollments of over 4,000. De La Salle's OL averages 6'5, 280 lbs. That's a high school. It's unfair and unrealistic to think schools in Arkansas with enrollments between 350 and 700 could compete with the big boys. I read an article in the Salt Lake Tribune that said last years East Salt Lake team had 2 OL and 3 DL committed to Pac-12 and Big 10 schools. It's a completely different world.
Quote from: JessieP on October 18, 2017, 04:44:47 pm
Touche! I hope you realize I was not knocking PA. I was stating that some of those schools are admitted football factories. A lot of the schools out in Texas, Florida and California have enrollments of over 4,000. De La Salle's OL averages 6'5, 280 lbs. That's a high school. It's unfair and unrealistic to think schools in Arkansas with enrollments between 350 and 700 could compete with the big boys. I read an article in the Salt Lake Tribune that said last years East Salt Lake team had 2 OL and 3 DL committed to Pac-12 and Big 10 schools. It's a completely different world.
NP, We agree on this one. I worked in Euless, Texas for over a decade and had a one year assignment near Concord, CA. There is some big boy ball going on at that level. BTW, check out a video of Euless Trinity doing the HAKA for pre game sometime....Beast mode :D
Quote from: Overdahill on October 18, 2017, 04:06:12 pm
read some threads; nobody is doing that. Heck, LRCA is not gonna lay 56 on any top 20 team for crying out loud
I've read all the threads. I asked that question in order to open up another questions. :) Bare with me.
Don't private schools exist by recruiting students to go there? They advertise in papers and magizines, I think Ive even seen a billboard before.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on October 19, 2017, 09:30:50 am
Don't private schools exist by recruiting students to go there? They advertise in papers and magizines, I think Ive even seen a billboard before.
With school choice lots of public schools do the same. I've seen several public schools with billboards advertising their academics and athletics.
After seeing a 4th thread shut down and locked after some heated debates and valid points my views have "evolved". I think we should all be very thankful that we have the privilege of playing private schools. How else will kids learn to better themselves if they aren't shown how truly inferior they are? There are no advantages, when it comes to athletic competition, for private schools. They simply work harder, are smarter, better coached, better looking, harder working, nicer uniforms and did I mention they work harder? Public schools do serve a purpose, to quote Judge Smells "the world needs ditch diggers too".
I've seen the light.
Check the number of kids on free and reduced lunches, the number of kids on the team in special education, you will then begin to understand what separates PA from everyone else.
JessieP,
You're missing the point of this thread - and be forewarned that I will not let this thread get derailed. Now I know reading 24 pages of postings isn't likely to happen but throughout the life of this thread, a good bit of thoughtful dialogue and insight occurred. I can't speak for anyone but myself but what initially drew me to this thread is the all too out of date manner in which schools are classified in this state. Part of that consideration is how to account for the private schools - which are going to be present.
There are no easy answers when it comes to how AAA can best create as fair and equitable playing environment for all of the HS teams in Arkansas. It isn't just the private vs public debate - it's also about the size of the school, the size of the surrounding community, the travel, the resources available and many more factors.
All I am asking folks to do in this thread is read and think a bit.
Quote from: JessieP on October 19, 2017, 01:04:08 pm
...are smarter, ..., better looking,...
Speak for yourself Jessie.
:)
Quote from: JessieP on October 19, 2017, 01:04:08 pm
After seeing a 4th thread shut down and locked after some heated debates and valid points my views have "evolved".
Your thoughts do not need to evolve. In the thread that got shut down, you noted four factors that are the basis for PA's, or any other school's success. They were coaching, talent, work ethic and financial advantage.
I would put talent first. There are teams that do not have a consistently successful program that have won a championship because of one or two truly outstanding players. There are teams with consistently good players that, because of good coaching, are consistently good, and occasionally championship caliber. Teams with little talent don't win championships.
Coaching is clearly important. Everyone focuses on Kelly, but the importance of the assistant coaches is often overlooked. A big reason the PA passing game is so strong is having Anthony Lucas and Adam Thrash as assistant coaches. Developing a good game plan each week takes more than the head coach. Kelly may be calling the plays, but there is a reason he wears a headset. He's not listening to the play by play radio broadcast. He is calling plays, or changing plays on the fly, because of the information he is getting from his assistants about the defensive scheme being shown.
Work ethics is more than hard work. Commitment might be a better term to use. There are some athletes that are so gifted that they can excel simply because of their talents. For everyone else, there is a direct correlation between commitment and success. The successful athlete will determine what it takes to become the best they can be, and then they do it. It's not a matter of whether they work harder and/or smarter than someone else. Debating whether PA players work harder than players from other teams is really missing the point because "working harder" is a subjective determination.
I might work out harder than anyone else, but if I could only run a 5.0 40-yard dash, I wouldn't be playing wide receiver for PA, or anyone else. On the other hand, if I had talent, and commited to doing everything I could possibly do to make myself faster, stronger, smarter, etc., then I, and my team, would be better than we might otherwise be. Success, as JessieP pointed out, is not based on simply working harder, but having the necessary work ethic that manifests itself in a commitment to excellence. PA isn't "better" than anyone else simply because they or more or less committed than other teams. All one can say with certainty is that PA is as good as they are in a given year because they have players that demonstrate the work ethic necessary to be as successful as they can be. Some years they win a championship. Other years they don't, but they always strive to be the best they can be.
The last factor, financial advantage, is a bit nebulous. It certainly doesn't hurt, but how much it helps is less clear. If it was a really important factor, schools like PA, LRCA, Episcopal Collegiate and Baptist Prep would excel in every sport, every year. Reality is that some of the schools excel in football or basketball, but not both, or are good one year but not the next. One could argue over what school, or individual player, in Northwest Ark has a financial advantage over the other, but it wouldn't really explain why Fayetteville was so good in previous years, but Bentonville and/or Springdale are better this year. Is it facilities? Even 2A schools have artificial surface fields. There are a number of schools in Central Arkansas that have indoor practice facilities. PA isn't one of them. Bryant has had one for years, but in the past it didn't translate into the type of success they are having this year. The only conclusion I can come up with is that relative "wealth" is an advantage when a team wins, and no advantage when a team loses.
JessieP was right in saying that talent, coaching and a work ethic committed to excellence are important, individually and collectively. Lose one, and success will be much harder to achieve. Without talent or a strong work ethic, even a Kelly coached team might not be very successful. With them, a team like PA might be successful under a coach other than Kelly. I spend very little time worrying about whether PA, or any other Ark team, can compete effectively against other teams from around the country...or even compete against each another. I am happy to see any team doing the best they can, and if that translates into championships, all the better. I am happy to see PA's current run of success, but when the run is over, I will be just as happy to attend their games. I would hope that everyone else on FF could enjoy the success of any team in the state. Football is just a game. If there are lessons to be learned from playing the game, let's be sure we are teaching our kids the right lessons.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 19, 2017, 03:27:10 pm
Football is just a game. If there are lessons to be learned from playing the game, let's be sure we are teaching our kids the right lessons.
And that is the most important thing of all.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 19, 2017, 03:27:10 pm
Your thoughts do not need to evolve. In the thread that got shut down, you noted four factors that are the basis for PA's, or any other school's success. They were coaching, talent, work ethic and financial advantage.
I would put talent first. There are teams that do not have a consistently successful program that have won a championship because of one or two truly outstanding players. There are teams with consistently good players that, because of good coaching, are consistently good, and occasionally championship caliber. Teams with little talent don't win championships.
Coaching is clearly important. Everyone focuses on Kelly, but the importance of the assistant coaches is often overlooked. A big reason the PA passing game is so strong is having Anthony Lucas and Adam Thrash as assistant coaches. Developing a good game plan each week takes more than the head coach. Kelly may be calling the plays, but there is a reason he wears a headset. He's not listening to the play by play radio broadcast. He is calling plays, or changing plays on the fly, because of the information he is getting from his assistants about the defensive scheme being shown.
Work ethics is more than hard work. Commitment might be a better term to use. There are some athletes that are so gifted that they can excel simply because of their talents. For everyone else, there is a direct correlation between commitment and success. The successful athlete will determine what it takes to become the best they can be, and then they do it. It's not a matter of whether they work harder and/or smarter than someone else. Debating whether PA players work harder than players from other teams is really missing the point because "working harder" is a subjective determination.
I might work out harder than anyone else, but if I could only run a 5.0 40-yard dash, I wouldn't be playing wide receiver for PA, or anyone else. On the other hand, if I had talent, and commited to doing everything I could possibly do to make myself faster, stronger, smarter, etc., then I, and my team, would be better than we might otherwise be. Success, as JessieP pointed out, is not based on simply working harder, but having the necessary work ethic that manifests itself in a commitment to excellence. PA isn't "better" than anyone else simply because they or more or less committed than other teams. All one can say with certainty is that PA is as good as they are in a given year because they have players that demonstrate the work ethic necessary to be as successful as they can be. Some years they win a championship. Other years they don't, but they always strive to be the best they can be.
The last factor, financial advantage, is a bit nebulous. It certainly doesn't hurt, but how much it helps is less clear. If it was a really important factor, schools like PA, LRCA, Episcopal Collegiate and Baptist Prep would excel in every sport, every year. Reality is that some of the schools excel in football or basketball, but not both, or are good one year but not the next. One could argue over what school, or individual player, in Northwest Ark has a financial advantage over the other, but it wouldn't really explain why Fayetteville was so good in previous years, but Bentonville and/or Springdale are better this year. Is it facilities? Even 2A schools have artificial surface fields. There are a number of schools in Central Arkansas that have indoor practice facilities. PA isn't one of them. Bryant has had one for years, but in the past it didn't translate into the type of success they are having this year. The only conclusion I can come up with is that relative "wealth" is an advantage when a team wins, and no advantage when a team loses.
JessieP was right in saying that talent, coaching and a work ethic committed to excellence are important, individually and collectively. Lose one, and success will be much harder to achieve. Without talent or a strong work ethic, even a Kelly coached team might not be very successful. With them, a team like PA might be successful under a coach other than Kelly. I spend very little time worrying about whether PA, or any other Ark team, can compete effectively against other teams from around the country...or even compete against each another. I am happy to see any team doing the best they can, and if that translates into championships, all the better. I am happy to see PA's current run of success, but when the run is over, I will be just as happy to attend their games. I would hope that everyone else on FF could enjoy the success of any team in the state. Football is just a game. If there are lessons to be learned from playing the game, let's be sure we are teaching our kids the right lessons.
I agree with everything you said, with one tiny caveat. The financial advantage I would rank second to coaching with talent and work ethic being 3 and 4. It is a huge advantage. My whole point is that when PA steps on the field they start with a huge advantage. In the Arkansas 5A they haven't played an apples to apples game in years. But yes, if they were to lose any one of the four they would be in a log jam with about 6 other elite teams. The coaching, talent and work ethic minus the financial aspect and they don't win 3 in a row. The financial end, coaching and talent minus the work ethic and they don't win 3 in a row. You can continue that combination in any order and it holds true. Say what you want about the most obnoxious poster here, here's a clue "Go Bulldogs" but Greenwood is a state powerhouse, equal to any private school. How do you get to play for Greenwood? live in the district, it's that simple. Be you Prince or Pauper, you live there, you get to be on the team. When they take the field the only advantage they have is coaching and talent, everyone work hard.
Regarding WE WORK HARDER discussions:
I generally try to avoid getting into dialogues that lead nowhere but for whatever it is worth my experience as a player and parent is that there is a fairly wide "range" in the work ethic of players on teams and that generalizations are not very useful; some players want to be leaders and work exceptionally hard consistently trying to make themselves and others better, some work hard trying to compensate for lack of natural ability so they can contribute and there are also some of all ability levels who "coast" relatively speaking whether it be in drills, film sessions or conditioning. Coaches can try and set the bar high with example and rewards/consequences and some players will buy in completely while others are content to just wear the uniform.
Hang over the railing at a hot summer practice or conditioning session sometime and see if you don't notice a range of efforts. It is speculation on my part but I suspect there is a combination of very hard workers and relative slackers at most schools
I am also reminded to the Shiloh posters during their 4 year championship run that carried the "we work harder than everyone else" mantra. Shiloh prob still works hard but their run ended and their results returned to earth
I'm just shocked that private schools even want to play in a league with all those underprivileged, ignorant, lazy kids in public schools.
Quote from: gameoflife on October 19, 2017, 04:20:23 pm
I'm just shocked that private schools even want to play in a league with all those underprivileged, ignorant, lazy kids in public schools.
You read 1,161 prior posts in this thread and that's what you got out of it?
Is there way to find out what percentage of kids have parents that are PA Alumni? If it's been mentioned, my apologies.
Quote from: PrivateLesson on October 19, 2017, 05:53:13 pm
Is there way to find out what percentage of kids have parents that are PA Alumni? If it's been mentioned, my apologies.
I don't know of a way to obtain that info. I can name 8-10 on the team (includes a couple set of brothers) that I know their parent(s) are PA alums and the only reason I know that is that is I'm acquainted with the families. When my children were there a decade ago, only a handful of kids in their classes were 2nd generation. Keep in mind that PA did not exist until 1971 and then class size was in the teens. Average class sizes now are 90ish and many PA students come from families such as mine where the parents grew up outside Little Rock, but have established careers in the city and have no history with PA until their offspring enrolled there. In the future, it is reasonable to have more 2nd and even 3rd generation students.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 19, 2017, 06:04:20 pm
I don't know of a way to obtain that info. I can name 8-10 on the team (includes a couple set of brothers) that I know their parent(s) are PA alums and the only reason I know that is that is I'm acquainted with the families. When my children were there a decade ago, only a handful of kids in their classes were 2nd generation. Keep in mind that PA did not exist until 1971 and then class size was in the teens. Average class sizes now are 90ish and many PA students come from families such as mine where the parents grew up outside Little Rock, but have established careers in the city and have no history with PA until their offspring enrolled there. In the future, it is reasonable to have more 2nd and even 3rd generation students.
For a school that's relatively new I'd say 3rd generations may be small but the numbers will grow every year. Going to school where your parents attended is surprisingly common. Maynard, your kids went there a decade ago? You had kids when you were 6? I always assumed you were 28, 6'4, 220lbs of sculpted muscle, Movie Star looks and 2 or 3 Nobel Peace prizes, please don't shatter the myth.
Quote from: JessieP on October 19, 2017, 08:01:22 pm
For a school that's relatively new I'd say 3rd generations may be small but the numbers will grow every year. Going to school where your parents attended is surprisingly common. Maynard, your kids went there a decade ago? You had kids when you were 6? I always assumed you were 28, 6'4, 220lbs of sculpted muscle, Movie Star looks and 2 or 3 Nobel Peace prizes, please don't shatter the myth.
You got everything right but my age
I've heard rumors through the years that PA recruits kids at the pee wee level before they get into junior high. I've personally talked to a woman who claimed that she had been approached by people affiliated with PA (not sure if employees or just other parents) about going to PA. Her son was in the 6th grade at the time.
I know that sounds ridiculous, and I don't necessarily believe it is true, but when I saw that Anthony Lucas is a coach for PA it did kind of make me raise my eyebrows. Doesn't he run the Life Champs youth football program? I also believe the Life Champs office is right next door to PA.
Do any of y'all know if PA has a history of picking up the best players from that program?
I want to be clear that I'm not making any accusations, and I do not have any inside knowledge or anything like that. As a matter of fact I'm a huge fan of his from his time with the Hogs. It was just something that peaked my curiosity when I saw that he was a coach.
Quote from: JessieP on October 19, 2017, 04:14:48 pm
I agree with everything you said, with one tiny caveat. The financial advantage I would rank second to coaching with talent and work ethic being 3 and 4. It is a huge advantage. My whole point is that when PA steps on the field they start with a huge advantage. In the Arkansas 5A they haven't played an apples to apples game in years. But yes, if they were to lose any one of the four they would be in a log jam with about 6 other elite teams. The coaching, talent and work ethic minus the financial aspect and they don't win 3 in a row. The financial end, coaching and talent minus the work ethic and they don't win 3 in a row. You can continue that combination in any order and it holds true. Say what you want about the most obnoxious poster here, here's a clue "Go Bulldogs" but Greenwood is a state powerhouse, equal to any private school. How do you get to play for Greenwood? live in the district, it's that simple. Be you Prince or Pauper, you live there, you get to be on the team. When they take the field the only advantage they have is coaching and talent, everyone work hard.
Let's try to be very specific my friend. What financial advantage are you speaking of specifically? I sacrifice significantly for my children to attend PA, and then I pay extra for my son to play football. Where is the advantage there? What are you speaking of?
Quote from: dip2172 on October 19, 2017, 09:15:19 pm
I've heard rumors through the years that PA recruits kids at the pee wee level before they get into junior high. I've personally talked to a woman who claimed that she had been approached by people affiliated with PA (not sure if employees or just other parents) about going to PA. Her son was in the 6th grade at the time.
I know that sounds ridiculous, and I don't necessarily believe it is true, but when I saw that Anthony Lucas is a coach for PA it did kind of make me raise my eyebrows. Doesn't he run the Life Champs youth football program? I also believe the Life Champs office is right next door to PA.
Do any of y'all know if PA has a history of picking up the best players from that program?
I want to be clear that I'm not making any accusations, and I do not have any inside knowledge or anything like that. As a matter of fact I'm a huge fan of his from his time with the Hogs. It was just something that peaked my curiosity when I saw that he was a coach.
This is absolutely true. We have a great number of paid scouts that concentrate solely on 6-7 year olds. It is the greatest secret of our success.
Our scouts have a secret formula for evaluating 6-7 year olds. No one else in the nation knows our formula and we will never reveal it.
As those who know me probably guessed, I'm not feeling the love tonight.
I understand that everyone thinks it's silly to think young kids can be recruited, but when you go out and watch 10-11 year olds, there are certainly some that stand out. Surely those of you who have had kids knew which ones would stand out at a young age? Not saying PA knows, but people who act like there's no way of knowing at that age are wrong.
Dad, you're not happy tonight!
Quote from: PA Dad on October 19, 2017, 09:26:08 pm
This is absolutely true. We have a great number of paid scouts that concentrate solely on 6-7 year olds. It is the greatest secret of our success.
Our scouts have a secret formula for evaluating 6-7 year olds. No one else in the nation knows our formula and we will never reveal it.
As those who know me probably guessed, I'm not feeling the love tonight.
I get what you're saying. I know it sounds ridiculous but that conversation I had really did happen. The person might have been lying to me.
Evaluating 6-7 year old is not what I'm talking about. Maybe it only applied to my life, but the kids who were the best athletes at age 10-12 were generally still the best in high school. There were obviously exceptions, but generally speaking it held true.
I personally don't care either way. Y'all are trying to answer why PA is so awesome, and so I threw out a question based on something I noticed.
When do the best athletes for PA generally start attending there? If they've been there since kindergarten, then the answer to my question is obviously no. If they generally start around 6th or 7th grade, then I think my question warrants a serious reply.
it doesn't really matter either way, though. Even if that's what is happening, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 19, 2017, 09:43:02 pm
I understand that everyone thinks it's silly to think young kids can be recruited, but when you go out and watch 10-11 year olds, there are certainly some that stand out. Surely those of you who have had kids knew which ones would stand out at a young age? Not saying PA knows, but people who act like there's no way of knowing at that age are wrong.
Dad, you're not happy tonight!
Geez, you're really going to claim that PA recruits first graders? Or fourth graders?
Anyone who thinks they can recognize college talent in the fourth grade is delusional. And that seems to be the claim here.
Quote from: dip2172 on October 19, 2017, 09:47:50 pm
I get what you're saying. I know it sounds ridiculous but that conversation I had really did happen. The person might have been lying to me.
Evaluating 6-7 year old is not what I'm talking about. Maybe it only applied to my life, but the kids who were the best athletes at age 10-12 were generally still the best in high school. There were obviously exceptions, but generally speaking it held true.
I personally don't care either way. Y'all are trying to answer why PA is so awesome, and so I threw out a question based on something I noticed.
When do the best athletes for PA generally start attending there? If they've been there since kindergarten, then the answer to my question is obviously no. If they generally start around 6th or 7th grade, then I think my question warrants a serious reply.
it doesn't really matter either way, though. Even if that's what is happening, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Many PA posters have answered this question. I did an analysis two years ago which showed that about 75% of football players have been at PA since grade school, over 90% since middle school, and that those who came in high school came from out of state when their parents were transferred here.
You're going to say that you can't tell if a 6th grader is far more athletic than others?
I'll not get you riled up tonight Dad. I can tell it hasn't been a good day. Tomorrow is Friday though! It will be better!
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on October 19, 2017, 09:16:58 pm
Let's try to be very specific my friend. What financial advantage are you speaking of specifically? I sacrifice significantly for my children to attend PA, and then I pay extra for my son to play football. Where is the advantage there? What are you speaking of?
Top notch facilities, summer camps, Alumni football endowments, apparel sponsorship, catered meals for the coaches film sessions, highly paid assistant coaches and oh yeah...FINANCIAL AID FOR FOOTBALL PLAYERS that exceeds the general student body. Student body at large: 22% receive aid. Football players: 37% receive aid. There are others I can't think of right now. Listen, I have had heated debates, when I was shown to be wrong, I admitted it. Every other PA fan has admitted they do enjoy advantages that other schools do not. I do admire you for being the lone holdout. Individual families that sacrifice for their children to attend are not what anyone is talking about. I don't think anyone has said what they are doing is illegal or even wrong. The only point most logical people are trying to make is don't tell us it's coaching genius and hard work, it's both those yes, it's not the only reasons. Take 2 teams, hypothetically speaking, One school has a slight advantage in coaching,They have a slight advantage in work ethic and talent level. The other school has a massive advantage financially. The school with the financial advantage will win 100 out of 100 times. How do you not get that?
Quote from: PA Dad on October 19, 2017, 09:49:53 pm
Geez, you're really going to claim that PA recruits first graders? Or fourth graders?
Anyone who thinks they can recognize college talent in the fourth grade is delusional. And that seems to be the claim here.
I'm not making that claim. I will make the claim that you can identify kids who are good athletes by about the age of 10 or so. They don't always pan out in high school, but on average the kids who are the best by that age are still going to be the best when they get older. It certainly was the case in my life.
I feel kind of bad now for posting. Wasn't trying to pee you off PA Dad. It was an honest question. You're the best poster on this board in my opinion. I feel bad for setting you off!!
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 19, 2017, 09:54:02 pm
You're going to say that you can't tell if a 6th grader is far more athletic than others?
No. Certainly you can identify an outstanding athlete in the 6th grade. But you can't predict, with any certainty, what that athlete will be like as a senior. I'm a great example of that. In the 6th grade I was the fastest player on the team. In the 7th grade I was a star running back. By high school, many others had caught and surpassed me. So excellence in the sixth grade is a poor predictor of talent in high school.
Quote from: dip2172 on October 19, 2017, 09:58:03 pm
I'm not making that claim. I will make the claim that you can identify kids who are good athletes by about the age of 10 or so. They don't always pan out in high school, but on average the kids who are the best by that age are still going to be the best when they get older. It certainly was the case in my life.
I feel kind of bad now for posting. Wasn't trying to pee you off PA Dad. It was an honest question. You're the best poster on this board in my opinion. I feel bad for setting you off!!
No apology necessary. See my response to MDX post. I agree that good athletes can be identified early, but I think that's a poor predictor of talent in high school.
And, I admit I had a bad day and I'm in a bad mood. I apologize for being so contrary tonight.
Quote from: PA Dad on October 19, 2017, 10:03:48 pm
No apology necessary. See my response to MDX post. I agree that good athletes can be identified early, but I think that's a poor predictor of talent in high school.
And, I admit I had a bad day and I'm in a bad mood. I apologize for being so contrary tonight.
Don't apologize. Your one of the most level headed posters here. I have changed a few views on PA based on logical discussions we have had, you presented points that I didn't take into consideration. Your entitled to a cranky night on the FF board.
Another advantage no one has brought up. If I was a father of a talented 6th grader and someone approached me saying "if you send your kid to PA I can arrange for you to meet Maynard G. Krebs in person". I'd kick my wife out of the way to grab a pen and sign the application.
Quote from: PA Dad on October 19, 2017, 09:59:16 pm
No. Certainly you can identify an outstanding athlete in the 6th grade. But you can't predict, with any certainty, what that athlete will be like as a senior. I'm a great example of that. In the 6th grade I was the fastest player on the team. In the 7th grade I was a star running back. By high school, many others had caught and surpassed me. So excellence in the sixth grade is a poor predictor of talent in high school.
You're just being humble. I bet you were ready for primetime every game night! I agree though, it doesn't always translate. I also believe that's where Kelley comes in. You get those athletes that might not develop unless they get the coaching and opportunities. Seems like they get both of those at PA
Quote from: JessieP on October 19, 2017, 10:13:13 pm
Don't apologize. Your one of the most level headed posters here. I have changed a few views on PA based on logical discussions we have had, you presented points that I didn't take into consideration. Your entitled to a cranky night on the FF board.
Another advantage no one has brought up. If I was a father of a talented 6th grader and someone approached me saying "if you send your kid to PA I can arrange for you to meet Maynard G. Krebs in person". I'd kick my wife out of the way to grab a pen and sign the application.
Geez, JessieP, Maynard's head is big enough without you enlarging it even more.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 19, 2017, 10:15:12 pm
You're just being humble. I bet you were ready for primetime every game night! I agree though, it doesn't always translate. I also believe that's where Kelley comes in. You get those athletes that might not develop unless they get the coaching and opportunities. Seems like they get both of those at PA
Well, let me give one more example. When my daughter was in middle school, we had an 8th grade quarterback who was far and away the best athlete on the team. Great arm and great runner. I would have predicted that he would play in college. But, he couldn't take a hit. He came out of every game after a hard hit. He turned out to be a great basketball player, but he couldn't make it in football. How do you predict that?
Madre Hill was so good in pee wees that they had a "Madre Rule." On the other hand, you have the examples that you mention when things don't pan out. Kids go through a lot of physical and mental changes. It's hard to predict.
Quote from: IMSwarmed on October 19, 2017, 11:19:37 pm
Madre Hill was so good in pee wees that they had a "Madre Rule." On the other hand, you have the examples that you mention when things don't pan out. Kids go through a lot of physical and mental changes. It's hard to predict.
I had a similar experience. When my youngest boy played peewee football there was a running back that was so much bigger and better than anyone else that he was banned from playing because there was a fear that he would injure someone and he was so good that it wasn't fair to let him play. He never made it to college.
Quote from: IMSwarmed on October 19, 2017, 11:19:37 pm
Madre Hill was so good in pee wees that they had a "Madre Rule." On the other hand, you have the examples that you mention when things don't pan out. Kids go through a lot of physical and mental changes. It's hard to predict.
They have a formula for knowing how to weed out the ones who won't grow any more, or who don't have the mental fortitude or work ethic that meet their standards. I've seen the algorithm. It's quite brilliant really. Pair this with what I was saying in another thread about having the money to genetically engineer superior football talent, and you have the PA system solved.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on October 19, 2017, 11:30:41 pm
They have a formula for knowing how to weed out the ones who won't grow any more, or who don't have the mental fortitude or work ethic that meet their standards. I've seen the algorithm. It's quite brilliant really. Pair this with what I was saying in another thread about having the money to genetically engineer superior football talent, and you have the PA system solved.
And I thought our algorithm was top secret! Shows what I know!
On a serious note, I know the thoughtful posters on this board laugh at the ridiculous posts. On the other hand, there are very thoughtful posters who rightfully point out the advantages of private schools. I wish I had a solution everyone could agree with, but that won't happen. I still think MDX's suggestion of a performance based advancement system is the best solution. I'm just afraid it will never happen and I'll have to listen to all of these complaints until PA loses its dominance. And, I predict that will happen when Kelley leaves.
Quote from: PA Dad on October 19, 2017, 11:42:49 pm
And I thought our algorithm was top secret! Shows what I know!
On a serious note, I know the thoughtful posters on this board laugh at the ridiculous posts. On the other hand, there are very thoughtful posters who rightfully point out the advantages of private schools. I wish I had a solution everyone could agree with, but that won't happen. I still think MDX's suggestion of a performance based advancement system is the best solution. I'm just afraid it will never happen and I'll have to listen to all of these complaints until PA loses its dominance. And, I predict that will happen when Kelley leaves.
They could also fix it by bumping the private schools who give a large portion of their financial assistance to one of their sports teams to the highest class. Say, anything over 15 percent or so. That won't happen either though.
The success advancement needs to be pushed in all sports. It would definitely make high school sports more enjoyable to most fans after the first couple of years.
Quote from: JessieP on October 19, 2017, 09:56:52 pm
Top notch facilities, summer camps, Alumni football endowments, apparel sponsorship, catered meals for the coaches film sessions, highly paid assistant coaches and oh yeah...FINANCIAL AID FOR FOOTBALL PLAYERS that exceeds the general student body. Student body at large: 22% receive aid. Football players: 37% receive aid. There are others I can't think of right now. Listen, I have had heated debates, when I was shown to be wrong, I admitted it. Every other PA fan has admitted they do enjoy advantages that other schools do not. I do admire you for being the lone holdout. Individual families that sacrifice for their children to attend are not what anyone is talking about. I don't think anyone has said what they are doing is illegal or even wrong. The only point most logical people are trying to make is don't tell us it's coaching genius and hard work, it's both those yes, it's not the only reasons. Take 2 teams, hypothetically speaking, One school has a slight advantage in coaching,They have a slight advantage in work ethic and talent level. The other school has a massive advantage financially. The school with the financial advantage will win 100 out of 100 times. How do you not get that?
Hold on friend, I'm not denying the private school advantage or a financial advantage, I'm just claiming it's not the most important or even second most important factor in the PA winning formula. You very recently stated that financial status is second only to superior coaching among the top four reasons PA wins so much. We started this argument weeks ago and my singular point back then was that while $$$ is an advantage, it's not as big as you think. Granted it's there, but the team still has to show up. Respectfully, I think you (as do many others) are judging PA's $$ advantage based on what you think other schools/teams don't have, and you really don't know what it does for PA.
Why not discuss exactly what public schools do receive?
Money spends the same....and all kids have parents that work for a living, no?
I remember my first encounter with a private school in football. It was with LRCA at the old field at the old Junior High (Michael Dyer years). I knew something was different when the team and the parents showed up in chartered buses. :o ??? 8)
Maybe but Alma has a whole fleet of those things..lol :)
Are you saying that PA pays 100% of tuition for 37% of the football team? And they start doing this in 6th grade or earlier? If it's only partial tuition, and parents are paying $8-$10k per year, it's hard to see how that would be a big incentive to lure kids away from public school. Now if PA is paying 100% for 6 years, that means that PA is paying about $72,000 per kid to have this kid potentially play high school football for 2-3 years. If 1/3 of all football players are getting 100% tuition, that means in any given year PA is paying about $600,000 in scholarships for football players ($12k/yr * 50 players).
Is that what the PA recruits crowd is saying? Do you believe that?
Quote from: PA Dad on October 19, 2017, 09:49:53 pm
Geez, you're really going to claim that PA recruits first graders? Or fourth graders?
Anyone who thinks they can recognize college talent in the fourth grade is delusional. And that seems to be the claim here.
[/quoQuote from: PA Dad on October 19, 2017, 09:59:16 pm
No. Certainly you can identify an outstanding athlete in the 6th grade. But you can't predict, with any certainty, what that athlete will be like as a senior. I'm a great example of that. In the 6th grade I was the fastest player on the team. In the 7th grade I was a star running back. By high school, many others had caught and surpassed me. So excellence in the sixth grade is a poor predictor of talent in high school.
3 Star? 4 Star? 5 Star?
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on October 20, 2017, 08:45:16 am
Are you saying that PA pays 100% of tuition for 37% of the football team? And they start doing this in 6th grade or earlier? If it's only partial tuition, and parents are paying $8-$10k per year, it's hard to see how that would be a big incentive to lure kids away from public school. Now if PA is paying 100% for 6 years, that means that PA is paying about $72,000 per kid to have this kid potentially play high school football for 2-3 years. If 1/3 of all football players are getting 100% tuition, that means in any given year PA is paying about $600,000 in scholarships for football players ($12k/yr * 50 players).
Is that what the PA recruits crowd is saying? Do you believe that?
If that's the case...
(https://i.imgur.com/wGgCAGZ.gif)
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on October 20, 2017, 06:30:54 am
Hold on friend, I'm not denying the private school advantage or a financial advantage, I'm just claiming it's not the most important or even second most important factor in the PA winning formula. You very recently stated that financial status is second only to superior coaching among the top four reasons PA wins so much. We started this argument weeks ago and my singular point back then was that while $$$ is an advantage, it's not as big as you think. Granted it's there, but the team still has to show up. Respectfully, I think you (as do many others) are judging PA's $$ advantage based on what you think other schools/teams don't have, and you really don't know what it does for PA.
That's just where we have a fundamental difference. Now full disclosure, I grew up in a very upper-middle class neighborhood. It wasn't Highland Park but it wasn't Oak Cliff either. I never went without, My kids are not wealthy but they are comfortable. They have laptops, Iphones, Ipads, Itoilets and every other Ibullcrap. I worry that for all the gadgetry, we are not getting a very good return on our investments. We spoil them. I have never voted Democrat in my life, I am not giving you a workers of the world unite speech. No snowflake here, trust me. Having said that I am not so blinded that I cannot see some kids have a rough existence. PA provides an environment where kids can focus on football. Nice facilities, Nice equipment and top notch coaches matter. When ESPN, on National television, discussed how the coaches meet after the game to eat a catered meal and watch films a lot of people got a tiny glimpse as to some of the advantages many private schools enjoy. A great many coaches eat sandwiches made by parents on long cold bus rides home. Some schools work out with weight machines held together by duct tape. Red Devil Alum, a poster who I have the ultimate respect for, commented that PA kids have many of the same pressures that other kids do, that football players may put in a 50 hour week. That is true, yes. However, having to spend extra hours at football practice to ensure success isn't exactly the same as the kids who have to work 15 hours a week at night to help the parents so Entergy doesn't cut the power, now is it? PA doesn't ride to away games in a big old unheated, unairconditioned yellow bus do they? PA kids don't walk through metal detectors every morning do they? you think that doesn't increase stress on a teenager? Last year at the Championship while firmly in control, what did PA do at halftime? they changed into a different uniform, one of 20 something different combinations they have. It was cold and rainy, did that win the game? of course not. Why did they do it? everyone in Arkansas, except their fans, knows why they did it. It was an F-you to Wynne, the only thing missing was the cheerleaders chanting "we got money money, yes we do, we got money, how about you..". I'll take you at your word, you as an individual may not be wealthy, you make sacrifices to give your children every opportunity, there's a name for people like you, it's called being a good parent. I have all the respect in the world for you doing that, hats off. You may not have an advantage, PA does. Please don't insult people by denying financial advantages are not a massive plus.
This thread or this post will be locked or moved in three, two,...
PA had heated tents, too. Carry on....
What if the major advantage of being at PA is Administrative Management of Funds??
What if you gave the public school the same amount as private? Would both prosper the same?
Quote from: PrivateLesson on October 20, 2017, 10:21:57 am
What if the major advantage of being at PA is Administrative Management of Funds??
What if you gave the public school the same amount as private? Would both prosper the same?
Great points. I have long maintained that over the past five years if you took away the financial advantages PA is LRCA, Wynne, Batesville and McClellan. You could swap those 5 coaches to any school and with the financial edge PA still wins.
When the wrong person gets involved in this we won't have to worry about it. You know how we are all suppose to have liberty and justice for all.... Wrong minority school gets involved and the government gets involved. BAM.... we will playing freeze tag and Chinese checkers instead of football. You've all seen the white privileged propaganda... Think about it. Look at the attention with Trump and the NFL.
Great idea.... After the national anthem all teams that get ready to play P.A. should line the sideline and kneel, Then bow down!!!!!!! News media would love that and then P.A. fans that say that there is no real advantage would shut their mouths. If P.A. fans are smart they would leave themselves out of this argument and just sit back and enjoy the success without mouthing off and getting the pot stirring.
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on October 20, 2017, 10:42:32 am
When the wrong person gets involved in this we won't have to worry about it. You know how we are all suppose to have liberty and justice for all.... Wrong minority school gets involved and the government gets involved. BAM.... we will playing freeze tag and Chinese checkers instead of football. You've all seen the white privileged propaganda... Think about it. Look at the attention with Trump and the NFL.
Great idea.... After the national anthem all teams that get ready to play P.A. should line the sideline and kneel, Then bow down!!!!!!! News media would love that and then P.A. fans that say that there is no real advantage would shut their mouths. If P.A. fans are smart they would leave themselves out of this argument and just sit back and enjoy the success without mouthing off and getting the pot stirring.
"White privileged propaganda"? Please continue.
Quote from: the voice on December 18, 2015, 07:48:03 am
No one said they are recruiting. I don't know who is on the team and who isn't. We were having a discussion, do all players on the team live within five miles of the school? Whatever the distant would be for a public school in a highly populated area with other schools nearby , no because those lines would hurt private schools and possibly kill athletics at them. Your argument about being 4a , your team is turning out more college players than any 5a school on a regular basis, you want to talk about being a coward, you play in a classification where a single D1 player can make a team a contender, (hope) great example of how big an impact, while you have 2-4 on most teams , mercy ruling your opponents, think that's just fine to beat a team by 35, it acceptable, they should lay down and quit when you do this btw, you want to keep things exactly how they are , as though you have no advantage, and you wonder why the majority of the state hates your school and now your coach. You want to rationalize you pounding teams , as long it's 35 or less it's ok , no it's not.
As I said , the success PA has had is why players choose to go there. No one could blame them. Just like to see them play teams with similar talent , it's not the case when you're mercy ruling teams. Doesn't matter nothing will change and with the attitude like yours PA will be more hated this year because you and a couple others will continue to stir it up and this will be KK last year at PA , it's the rumor in coaching circle
This isn't as hard as people make it out to be and Private schools aren't as evil as everyone makes them out to be. Private VS Public is a Little Rock/NWA thing. And I do not have a kid in private school. Look who LR private schools compete with (Central, Hall, Parkview, LR Fair, Joe T Robinson) if you were to have the opportunity to send your kid to one of the private schools in LR over these schools then why wouldn't you?? NWA is a different issue. NWA's public schools are some of the biggest in the State. Their is only 1 private school. Its a numbers thing. Parents want their kid to have more opportunity to play and be seen which is why they chose a smaller school of Shiloh then the public schools which are all 7A. Fayetteville has 8,000 students with 1 public HS, Springdale has over 18,000 students with 2 public HS and 1 private school. Finally in markets that don't have private schools you will normally find a public school that takes its place. Fort Smith has to compete against Greenwood for students
All the NFL owners are white.... They only shot unarmed minorities...... desegregation.... etc
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on October 20, 2017, 11:07:25 am
All the NFL owners are white.... They only shot unarmed minorities...... desegregation.... etc
True, False, True. Another Truth = 70% of all NFL players are black. Another Truth = 74% of all NBA players are black. Please continue.
Quote from: JessieP on October 20, 2017, 10:35:51 am
Great points. I have long maintained that over the past five years if you took away the financial advantages PA is LRCA, Wynne, Batesville and McClellan. You could swap those 5 coaches to any school and with the financial edge PA still wins.
Maybe but that is hard to ascertain. Most of the basis of conversation is based on "what if". Maynard mentioned that PA was only established in 1971 and that it has yet to reach maybe 2nd or 3rd generation of Alumni. I don't know how much can be based on money alone. Some schools such as Subiaco, a private school, does not prosper the same as PA in Football. They do well in Basketball. I know that Waldron which is a 4A rural public school I read spent over 5.5 Million on a Football Stadium and just this year spent another $800,000 or plus for Turf. I don't think facilities has that much to do with it but IDK.
#propaganda is just that... Some true, some false.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on October 20, 2017, 10:59:39 am
This isn't as hard as people make it out to be and Private schools aren't as evil as everyone makes them out to be. Private VS Public is a Little Rock/NWA thing. And I do not have a kid in private school. Look who LR private schools compete with (Central, Hall, Parkview, LR Fair, Joe T Robinson) if you were to have the opportunity to send your kid to one of the private schools in LR over these schools then why wouldn't you?? NWA is a different issue. NWA's public schools are some of the biggest in the State. Their is only 1 private school. Its a numbers thing. Parents want their kid to have more opportunity to play and be seen which is why they chose a smaller school of Shiloh then the public schools which are all 7A. Fayetteville has 8,000 students with 1 public HS, Springdale has over 18,000 students with 2 public HS and 1 private school. Finally in markets that don't have private schools you will normally find a public school that takes its place. Fort Smith has to compete against Greenwood for students
+1
Y'all think the coaching staff at PA gets paid about the same as public schools? Genuinely curious about it. Thanks.
Highly unlikely... Just my opinion.
I just want to get on the Christmas list!!! ;D :) lol
Does Kelley teach any classes? Or any of the other coaches? I thought I heard that Kelley taught math???
Quote from: PrivateLesson on October 20, 2017, 12:23:56 pm
I just want to get on the Christmas list!!! ;D :) lol
(http://display.cuddlycomments.com/1/2655952155e9d57efc.gif)
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on October 20, 2017, 12:46:55 pm
Does Kelley teach any classes? Or any of the other coaches? I thought I heard that Kelley taught math???
Kelley is the AD and doesn't teach any other classes. The other coaches do. In fact, the previous OL coach was the best science teacher my kids ever had. The current DC is also an excellent science teacher.
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 20, 2017, 12:48:48 pm
(http://display.cuddlycomments.com/1/2655952155e9d57efc.gif)
+1 Lol!!! It makes me bad if I like that, doesn't it? :)
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on October 20, 2017, 12:46:55 pm
Does Kelley teach any classes? Or any of the other coaches? I thought I heard that Kelley taught math???
Coach Kelley does not teach a class, but if he did my bet is that he would be great at teaching statistics.
Quote from: PrivateLesson on October 20, 2017, 12:51:36 pm
+1 Lol!!! It makes me bad if I like that, doesn't it? :)
There are other lists for you, PrivateLesson. ;D
I teach Linguistic Analysis. I was just curious if they taught economics, personal fitness, hard working 101, or something to that degree. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: HowNowBrownCow on October 20, 2017, 02:34:40 pm
I teach Linguistic Analysis. I was just curious if they taught economics, personal fitness, hard working 101, or something to that degree. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
They teach "How to spend daddy's Money 101"
Quote from: PrivateLesson on October 20, 2017, 10:21:57 am
What if the major advantage of being at PA is Administrative Management of Funds??
What if you gave the public school the same amount as private? Would both prosper the same?
The school's financial situation is a very small advantage, but it is part of the bigger picture. I'm happy to see that Jessie has taken up the same argument that I have put forward for years (?) on FF. It's the many faceted advantage provided by wealth that positions PA to dominate; note I said "positions".. While raised in meager circumstances, I too have realized the advantages of success, as have my children. Those who actually know me on this board, know that my children did exceptionally well academically, primarily as a result of the advantages they were provided. The choice of my FF name, which includes the word intelligence, was just a joke between friends; believe me, I'm quite average. All that said to further the point, it's the many faceted trappings of success, including an elevated/superior locus of control of PA families that positions PA to dominate. Can that be helped or fixed - no. It is what it is. There is no "fixing" the dominant position PA has achieved (and it is an exceptional achievement), other than moving them out of AAA (unfairly penalizing their students), or moving to the "success model." I would propose the success model be applied exclusively for private schools who participate in AAA competition. If a private school dominates a particular sport over time, move them up, but only apply that to privates. Sorry for another long post, but those entering late may have missed my previous lectures .😎
I like the success model concept. Competitive games rather than blow outs should be the norm IMO. I feel that a lot of the discord and bitterness on this topic would diminish and some of the positives could be appreciated more.
I don't think any PA players or fans would argue about moving up a conference. I'm not entirely sure I understand the process to accomplish this move, but I'm quite certain it's not PA that is holding back.
Come on, private schools have a recruiting advantage, a money advantage, a discipline advantage, an expectation from parents advantage, an intelligence advantage, a motivation and committment advantage. Did I leave anything out?
Quote from: Iknewthemwhen on October 21, 2017, 05:56:00 pm
Come on, private schools have a recruiting advantage, a money advantage, a discipline advantage, an expectation from parents advantage, an intelligence advantage, a motivation and committment advantage. Did I leave anything out?
Hot moms
Oh, man I left off the most important advantage.
Quote from: Iknewthemwhen on October 23, 2017, 03:20:57 pm
Oh, man I left off the most important advantage.
I didn't mention that advantage for fear I'd be blocked from posting to the FF board. That said, it's quite true.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on October 23, 2017, 03:56:36 pm
I didn't mention that advantage for fear I'd be blocked from posting to the FF board. That said, it's quite true.
The PA lower school pick up every afternoon is an absolute smoke show.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on October 23, 2017, 06:34:44 pm
The PA lower school pick up every afternoon is an absolute smoke show.
This is sounding a bit creepy....
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 24, 2017, 09:56:47 am
This is sounding a bit creepy....
Not creepy at all. See below for a small sample of the smoke show referenced above.
(http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n352/maynardgkrebbs/desperate-housewives.jpg) (http://s336.photobucket.com/user/maynardgkrebbs/media/desperate-housewives.jpg.html)
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 24, 2017, 10:07:54 am
Not creepy at all. See below for a small sample of the smoke show referenced above.
(http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n352/maynardgkrebbs/desperate-housewives.jpg) (http://s336.photobucket.com/user/maynardgkrebbs/media/desperate-housewives.jpg.html)
Plastic.
Fake.
liberals.
No thanks.
Quote from: AirWarren on October 24, 2017, 10:38:39 am
Plastic.
Fake.
liberals.
No thanks.
I can just see RedDevil and Maynard.....it's 2:55 on a weekday.....outside of the PA elementary school........they're all slumped down in their station wagon.....both with binoculors and video cameras at the ready.....eating funyons and drinking a strawberry slurpie..........giggling like two 5th grade boys.......
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 24, 2017, 10:52:39 am
I can just see RedDevil and Maynard.....it's 2:55 on a weekday.....outside of the PA elementary school........they're all slumped down in their station wagon.....both with binoculors and video cameras at the ready.....eating funyons and drinking a strawberry slurpie..........giggling like two 5th grade boys.......
You're vivid imagination reveals much. 😀
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 24, 2017, 11:07:50 am
You're vivid imagination reveals much. 😀
I've watched my fair share of B movies. ;)
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 24, 2017, 11:07:50 am
You're vivid imagination reveals much. 😀
Maynard slumped down in his Subaru Outback giggling away.
Quote from: AirWarren on October 24, 2017, 11:36:13 am
Maynard slumped down in his Subaru Outback giggling
Quote from: AirWarren on October 24, 2017, 11:36:13 am
Maynard slumped down in his Subaru Outback Limo giggling away. ;)
Maynard slumped down in his VW MicroBus giggling away, you mean? ;D
Quote from: sevenof400 on October 24, 2017, 12:32:44 pm
Maynard slumped down in his VW MicroBus giggling away, you mean? ;D
Maynard slumped down in his SmartCar, you mean?
Quote from: AirWarren on October 24, 2017, 11:36:13 am
Maynard slumped down in his Subaru Outback giggling away.
+1
We can argue all day, but the most glaring discrepancy is the percentage of student athletes. The official numbers from AAA state that P.A. (sorry you guys are just the first I thought of) has a student population of 310.67 round it to 311. You currently field 63 players. You cherry pick who you want from anywhere you want. Even Greenwood, one of the premier programs in the state, has a roster of 95 out of a student body of 893.
I have no problem with private schools. If I had raised my children in Pulaski County they wouldn't have attended public school. Frustrations arise when, sometimes, private school programs don't have to address "the hand they are dealt". Pick up a kid here. Solicit a kid there. We're just filling a few gaps. This game has been going on in Mississippi for years. Any of you who grew up in Eastern Arkansas know. The private schools over there participate in the Mississippi Private School Association. There are some definite power house private schools who fight with each other over players, but the point is they're private. They can all bend the rules, give scholarships, and recruit the same way. Does that make it right, no, but it does level the playing field. In the end he who has the most resources wins.
I would love to see the powerhouse private schools really make some noise with the upper level classifications. If that ever happened something would be done. Most of the private schools sit in the middle level to lower level classifications. You know the schools that thrive, but have no real power in the whole scheme of things. If your Little Rock Christians, P.A., started beating Bryant, Fayetteville, Springdale etc. heads would turn, but we all know that they stay away from that challenge...just like Arkansas stays away from ASU. What do they have to win? Nothing. What do they have to lose? Everything.
Just my take. No hatred. Have a pleasant day!
Little Rock Christian isn't on the same level as Bryant, Fayetteville etc. Their offense is but their team isn't. PA has already beaten every 7A team they have ever played in season or pre-season. No hate just setting the record straight.
Quote from: incogneto on October 26, 2017, 09:48:52 am
Little Rock Christian isn't on the same level as Bryant, Fayetteville etc. Their offense is but their team isn't. PA has already beaten every 7A team they have ever played in season or pre-season. No hate just setting the record straight.
One win here and one win there isn't the point. PA could NOT play in the 7A all season, for years in a row, and be competitive. Can a sunbelt team beat an SEC West team once in a while? (besides UofA) Yes, But could a sunbelt team play week in and week out in the SEC West and be competitive? I think not. The one-off wins don't make a compelling argument
Quote from: photographer on October 26, 2017, 09:13:09 am
We can argue all day, but the most glaring discrepancy is the percentage of student athletes. The official numbers from AAA state that P.A. (sorry you guys are just the first I thought of) has a student population of 310.67 round it to 311. You currently field 63 players. You cherry pick who you want from anywhere you want. Even Greenwood, one of the premier programs in the state, has a roster of 95 out of a student body of 893.
Is Greenwood also a "discrepancy"? Using the percentage for Greenwood, Bryant should have 271 players and NLR should have 247 players on their rosters. Nettleton, enrollment 876, has 63 players (7%) per MaxPreps. Wynne, enrollment 809, has 73 players (9%). Why does Greenwood have so many players on its roster? Using the percentages (7-10%), you seem to be suggesting that because PA's roster is not between 22-31 players, there must be something going on.
There's a saying that some people use statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts - for support rather than for illumination.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 26, 2017, 11:15:21 am
Is Greenwood also a "discrepancy"? Using the percentage for Greenwood, Bryant should have 271 players and NLR should have 247 players on their rosters. Nettleton, enrollment 876, has 63 players (7%) per MaxPreps. Wynne, enrollment 809, has 73 players (9%). Why does Greenwood have so many players on its roster? Using the percentages (7-10%), you seem to be suggesting that because PA's roster is not between 22-31 players, there must be something going on.
There's a saying that some people use statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts - for support rather than for illumination.
With all those stats, your PA education has been displayed well young man. Gold star to you!
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 26, 2017, 11:15:21 am
Is Greenwood also a "discrepancy"? Using the percentage for Greenwood, Bryant should have 271 players and NLR should have 247 players on their rosters. Nettleton, enrollment 876, has 63 players (7%) per MaxPreps. Wynne, enrollment 809, has 73 players (9%). Why does Greenwood have so many players on its roster? Using the percentages (7-10%), you seem to be suggesting that because PA's roster is not between 22-31 players, there must be something going on.
There's a saying that some people use statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts - for support rather than for illumination.
I've never heard that one before, pretty good. I always use the Mark Twain quote "There's liars, dang liars and statistics". Did you know 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the population?
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 26, 2017, 11:20:12 am
With all those stats, your PA education has been displayed well young man. Gold star to you!
I appreciate your comments, but I was Little Rock Hall High School graduate (cum lucky rather than cum laude) four score and five years ago. As such, I can promise you that no one at the IHOP asks me for my ID when I ask for the Senior Citizen Discount. :-[
I didn't know Hall High existed 85 years ago, 45 maybe
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 26, 2017, 11:51:42 am
I didn't know Hall High existed 85 years ago, 45 maybe
Quote from: JessieP on October 26, 2017, 11:38:40 am
I've never heard that one before, pretty good. I always use the Mark Twain quote "There's liars, dang liars and statistics". Did you know 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the population?
Two more of my favorites, that are generally applicable on FF.
Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.
I can prove anything by statistics except the truth.
In the "did you know" category, did you know that smoking is one of the leading causes of statistics.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 26, 2017, 11:51:42 am
I didn't know Hall High existed 85 years ago, 45 maybe
I think I must have been channeling my inner Lincoln. Two score and five years is the correct number!
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 26, 2017, 11:51:42 am
I didn't know Hall High existed 85 years ago, 45 maybe
In the beginning, there was...................... Maynard with a quip ;D
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 26, 2017, 11:58:05 am
Two more of my favorites, that are generally applicable on FF.
Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.
I can prove anything by statistics except the truth.
In the "did you know" category, did you know that smoking is one of the leading causes of statistics.
You're on a roll today!
(http://cdn.business2community.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/gold-star-customer-service.jpg)
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 26, 2017, 11:58:05 am
Two more of my favorites, that are generally applicable on FF.
Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.
I can prove anything by statistics except the truth.
In the "did you know" category, did you know that smoking is one of the leading causes of statistics.
Bruin Backer has their A game going today. I will, without doubt, be stealing that one. That makes my all time favorite quotes list. It's right up there with David Letterman saying "there's a new study out today that said if your parents never had sex, you won't either".
Bruin Backer and Maynard may have to take over PR for the rest of us :D
Quote from: Overdahill on October 26, 2017, 01:31:54 pm
Bruin Backer and Maynard may have to take over PR for the rest of us :D
Are you kidding? Why would I want to take over Puerto Rico? Seriously, if Maynard will let me ride with him in his limo and look at the smoke in the afternoons at PA, I all for it. However, it may cramp Maynard's style if someone that looks like his dad is in the limo with him. Like Bulldogger, we PA folks are very sensitive about the image we project. He wore a tuxedo to his vasectomy because he said, "If you're going to be impotent, you need to look impotent".
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 26, 2017, 01:53:27 pm
Are you kidding? Why would I want to take over Puerto Rico? Seriously, if Maynard will let me ride with him in his limo and look at the smoke in the afternoons at PA, I all for it. However, it may cramp Maynard's style if someone that looks like his dad is in the limo with him. Like Bulldogger, we PA folks are very sensitive about the image we project. He wore a tuxedo to his vasectomy because he said, "If you're going to be impotent, you need to look impotent".
He also stayed up late last night studying for his urine test
Oh geez you guys................smh
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 26, 2017, 02:03:10 pm
He also stayed up late last night studying for his urine test
Ouch, rough crowd :)
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 26, 2017, 02:03:10 pm
He also stayed up late last night studying for his urine test
The worst part was that it was an oral exam.
Cue up drum rim shot...Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your referees.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 26, 2017, 02:26:59 pm
The worst part was that it was an oral exam.
Cue up drum rim shot...Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your referees.
Where's the tip jar? pretty funny conversations today.
Quote from: JessieP on October 26, 2017, 02:29:41 pm
Where's the tip jar? pretty funny conversations today.
We'll set one up at the PA/McClellan game tomorrow tonight. I can't guarantee the money won't go into the PA recruiting fund.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 26, 2017, 02:26:59 pm
The worst part was that it was an oral exam.
Cue up drum rim shot...Thank you very much. I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your referees.
You definitely stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 26, 2017, 02:49:24 pm
You definitely stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
I stay there every night. My wife made me go there when she found out it was cheaper than the nursing home she was planning on putting me in.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 26, 2017, 03:22:24 pm
I stay there every night. My wife made me go there when she found out it was cheaper than the nursing home she was planning on putting me in.
I've never seen this side of you. You've got quite the sarcastic sense of humor, no one applauds that more then I. You go girl/guy/trans/X/nogenderimplied/nonspecific/neutral human being, I love it.
Quote from: JessieP on October 26, 2017, 03:26:00 pm
I've never seen this side of you. You've got quite the sarcastic sense of humor, no one applauds that more then I. You go girl/guy/trans/X/nogenderimplied/nonspecific/neutral human being, I love it.
I prefer to think of it as a wry sense of humor. Only a Pioneer would confuse the two. Oops...make that a wry and sarcastic sense of humor. For those that are crazy enough to read 25 pages on a single topic, I think they deserve a page or two of comic relief. If it's as cold sitting through tomorrow night's game as they predict, I probably won't have much of a sense of humor next week. I hope that everyone that attends the game of their favorite team remembers that it's not whether you win or lose that counts, it whether your car will start after the game.
Quote from: JessieP on October 26, 2017, 11:38:40 am
I've never heard that one before, pretty good. I always use the Mark Twain quote "There's liars, dang liars and statistics". Did you know 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the population?
Haha and 83% of all statistics are made up during the argument.
Quote from: incogneto on October 26, 2017, 08:32:30 pm
Haha and 83% of all statistics are made up during the argument.
Your full of crap, it's 71%, 74% tops.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 26, 2017, 03:48:33 pm
I prefer to think of it as a wry sense of humor. Only a Pioneer would confuse the two. Oops...make that a wry and sarcastic sense of humor. For those that are crazy enough to read 25 pages on a single topic, I think they deserve a page or two of comic relief. If it's as cold sitting through tomorrow night's game as they predict, I probably won't have much of a sense of humor next week. I hope that everyone that attends the game of their favorite team remembers that it's not whether you win or lose that counts, it whether your car will start after the game.
+1 "It's not whether you win or lose, It's whether or not your car starts after the game!" Awesome!
Simple solution is the hardest one to make. Put all privates in their own classification.
Quote from: gameoflife on October 27, 2017, 01:22:16 pm
Simple solution is the hardest one to make. Put all privates in their own classification.
I agree, but there aren't enough competitive private schools in the state to accomplish that.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on October 27, 2017, 02:06:35 pm
I agree, but there aren't enough competitive private schools in the state to accomplish that.
It would be disastrous to the public schools. Regardless of how competitive it is, the public schools would suffer greatly. If you guys think privates don't play by the rules or have too relaxed rules now, could you imagine what their rules would allow them to do if they created their own league? Public schools would be losing athletes left and right. Separating them is absolutely not the answer.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 27, 2017, 02:21:33 pm
It would be disastrous to the public schools. Regardless of how competitive it is, the public schools would suffer greatly. If you guys think privates don't play by the rules or have too relaxed rules now, could you imagine what their rules would allow them to do if they created their own league? Public schools would be losing athletes left and right. Separating them is absolutely not the answer.
So they aren't losing athletes to them now?
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 27, 2017, 02:32:38 pm
So they aren't losing athletes to them now?
Clearly, that's not what I said. I pretty much said what is happening now would be amplified. It would not be a good situation. Plus, what would be stopping some public schools who want to recruit from joining that league as well? AAA is voluntary. They can't really make private schools play in another league they set up, but they can just prevent private schools from participating in their own league. Either way, this isn't the answer to the problem.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 27, 2017, 02:44:00 pm
Clearly, that's not what I said. I pretty much said what is happening now would be amplified. It would not be a good situation. Plus, what would be stopping some public schools who want to recruit from joining that league as well? AAA is voluntary. They can't really make private schools play in another league they set up, but they can just prevent private schools from participating in their own league. Either way, this isn't the answer to the problem.
Why would the private schools starting their own conference cause so many more parents to want to send their kids there? Doesn't make sense.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 27, 2017, 02:21:33 pm
It would be disastrous to the public schools. Regardless of how competitive it is, the public schools would suffer greatly. If you guys think privates don't play by the rules or have too relaxed rules now, could you imagine what their rules would allow them to do if they created their own league? Public schools would be losing athletes left and right. Separating them is absolutely not the answer.
I disagree. How many would they lose? even if the lost a lot it would be spread out over many schools. The parity would remain intact. Say you have six teams that are fairly even, each team loses their best player, aren't they still evenly matched? And the whole "Better shot at getting noticed by a college" is laughable. Recruiters find talent, they don't say "let's check out PA and LRCA". If there is a D1 level football player on Cave City, they'll find him. Now day's a lot of recruiting is self promotion, kids are making HUDL video's and sending them out, using social media to get noticed. I did some research and found out some shocking information, high school football players got scholarships before the internet and before high school teams played on tv. Now sit down, this is gonna floor many people, I have found actual proof that some high school players got scholarships even before PA existed, hard to imagine.
The only real answer to leveling the playing field is separate leagues. If you have no boundaries and offer aid you are in league A, if you are a public school who's only requirement is living in the district, league B.
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 27, 2017, 02:50:09 pm
Why would the private schools starting their own conference cause so many more parents to want to send their kids there? Doesn't make sense.
It wouldn't, you are 100% correct.
Why would the best players from public schools leave if they haven't already? Not many GW kids (who are relevant) are going to Union Academy. If you put Union in with the other private schools in the state, what makes a kid from Greenwood wanta all of a sudden start going to Union?
Every school in the state of Arkansas recruits. It's that simple. Every child in Arkansas can attend the school of their parent's choosing (with the wherewithal to have them transported and unless it violates a desegregation order of which I'm not aware). That's a fact. Excluding children, whose parents pay taxes to support public schools, from participating in AAA activities is simply unfair; my opinion as a long time public school administrator. A well conceived success model applied only to private schools, by sport, is the best solution, IMO. (I would have said IMHO, but I struggle to remain humble for a very long at a stretch, but I'm working on that character flaw.)😎
Quote from: JessieP on October 27, 2017, 02:53:13 pm
It wouldn't, you are 100% correct.
No, he isn't. They could set up a rule that allows the athlete to play no matter when or where the transfer is from. If a kid is unhappy mid season at a public school, he could transfer to the private school and start participating, if they allowed it. They could set up rules that didn't require any bona fide move from anywhere in order to play the same season and not have the kid sit out a year. If the private school league decided that they could legitimately go out and solicit players and give them money to play there, they could do it.
They could set up all kinds of rules that would hurt the public schools. If you really think it wouldn't change, that's you being too naive. If you separated the two, it would not be good for Arkansas high school football. You would see the quality of public schools decline.
Additionally, you're also living in denial if you don't think kids at specific high schools have a better chance to get noticed than others.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 27, 2017, 04:29:47 pm
No, he isn't. They could set up a rule that allows the athlete to play no matter when or where the transfer is from. If a kid is unhappy mid season at a public school, he could transfer to the private school and start participating, if they allowed it. They could set up rules that didn't require any bona fide move from anywhere in order to play the same season and not have the kid sit out a year. If the private school league decided that they could legitimately go out and solicit players and give them money to play there, they could do it.
They could set up all kinds of rules that would hurt the public schools. If you really think it wouldn't change, that's you being too naive. If you separated the two, it would not be good for Arkansas high school football. You would see the quality of public schools decline.
Additionally, you're also living in denial if you don't think kids at specific high schools have a better chance to get noticed than others.
I generally agree with what you are saying. However, there seems to be this theory that private schools have a lot of money to throw around, which I think is false. For a school to pay a top prospect to play for them there has to be an economic reason. Yes, PA can provide a few scholarships, which are normally 50% or less of tuition, but that's a far cry from paying the entire load. For actual sports focused schools, like IMG, they charge tens of thousands per semester. There isn't much middle ground. And I still say creating a private league in Arkansas wouldn't work because we don't have enough teams. Too small a state.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on October 27, 2017, 05:17:56 pm
I generally agree with what you are saying. However, there seems to be this theory that private schools have a lot of money to throw around, which I think is false. For a school to pay a top prospect to play for them there has to be an economic reason. Yes, PA can provide a few scholarships, which are normally 50% or less of tuition, but that's a far cry from paying the entire load. For actual sports focused schools, like IMG, they charge tens of thousands per semester. There isn't much middle ground. And I still say creating a private league in Arkansas wouldn't work because we don't have enough teams. Too small a state.
PA has a lot of money to throw around! Don't deny that! Lol
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 27, 2017, 05:30:58 pm
PA has a lot of money to throw around! Don't deny that! Lol
Some of their buildings leak so bad when it rains they might as well hold class outside. The football program is well funded by a handful of very generous families but the school is not overfunded. I'm just making the point the point that the business model of recruiting and paying players wouldn't work at PA. Despite all the rumors...
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on October 27, 2017, 05:36:29 pm
Some of their buildings leak so bad when it rains they might as well hold class outside. The football program is well funded by a handful of very generous families but the school is not overfunded. I'm just making the point the point that the business model of recruiting and paying players wouldn't work at PA. Despite all the rumors...
Well maybe the buildings are in poor shape, but the boosters would love to go solicit kids and throw money! They want football, not that other aspect of school. Don't act like y'all don't have plenty of wealthy boosters lol
That's surprising to learn PA is in need of classroom building repairs. You mean they let other areas of their program suffer but football??? How old are the buildings?? Are there any new ones planned in the future?
Quote from: PrivateLesson on October 28, 2017, 06:08:38 am
That's surprising to learn PA is in need of classroom building repairs. You mean they let other areas of their program suffer but football??? How old are the buildings?? Are there any new ones planned in the future?
The school basically has 3 parts. 2 of them are very nice, but the third (which is the middle school) is the original structure from 1971. It has leak problems and isn't as nice as the rest of the school for sure.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 27, 2017, 04:29:47 pm
No, he isn't. They could set up a rule that allows the athlete to play no matter when or where the transfer is from. If a kid is unhappy mid season at a public school, he could transfer to the private school and start participating, if they allowed it. They could set up rules that didn't require any bona fide move from anywhere in order to play the same season and not have the kid sit out a year. If the private school league decided that they could legitimately go out and solicit players and give them money to play there, they could do it.
They could set up all kinds of rules that would hurt the public schools. If you really think it wouldn't change, that's you being too naive. If you separated the two, it would not be good for Arkansas high school football. You would see the quality of public schools decline.
Additionally, you're also living in denial if you don't think kids at specific high schools have a better chance to get noticed than others.
Well, I am a big enough man to admit, when shown facts, when I was wrong. After reading your post and retorts to mine you have made one thing clear, PA has zero advantages over any public school. If what you say is accurate then there is no debate at all. To me the removal of boundaries is a major issue, you are adamant it is not. Now the States of California, Florida, Ohio and many districts of Texas agree with my point, what do those dummies know about high school football!
Whenever someone list a perceived advantage you tell them it's incorrect. The number of D1 players they produce can only be attributed to superior coaching, there is no other explanation. You see, your gonna have a hard time convincing anyone they recruit kindergartners. Now I have always been against performance based classifications, it's participation trophy mentality. Why punish anyone for success? That's just a hop, skip and a jump from removing the scoreboards.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on October 28, 2017, 10:48:27 am
The school basically has 3 parts. 2 of them are very nice, but the third (which is the middle school) is the original structure from 1971. It has leak problems and isn't as nice as the rest of the school for sure.
Ahhh....I understand. Maybe a New Middle School can be built soon.
Quote from: JessieP on October 28, 2017, 11:15:12 am
Well, I am a big enough man to admit, when shown facts, when I was wrong. After reading your post and retorts to mine you have made one thing clear, PA has zero advantages over any public school. If what you say is accurate then there is no debate at all. To me the removal of boundaries is a major issue, you are adamant it is not. Now the States of California, Florida, Ohio and many districts of Texas agree with my point, what do those dummies know about high school football!
Whenever someone list a perceived advantage you tell them it's incorrect. The number of D1 players they produce can only be attributed to superior coaching, there is no other explanation. You see, your gonna have a hard time convincing anyone they recruit kindergartners. Now I have always been against performance based classifications, it's participation trophy mentality. Why punish anyone for success? That's just a hop, skip and a jump from removing the scoreboards.
No Med Jessie is up this morning.
Quote from: JessieP on October 28, 2017, 11:15:12 am
Well, I am a big enough man to admit, when shown facts, when I was wrong. After reading your post and retorts to mine you have made one thing clear, PA has zero advantages over any public school. If what you say is accurate then there is no debate at all. To me the removal of boundaries is a major issue, you are adamant it is not. Now the States of California, Florida, Ohio and many districts of Texas agree with my point, what do those dummies know about high school football!
Whenever someone list a perceived advantage you tell them it's incorrect. The number of D1 players they produce can only be attributed to superior coaching, there is no other explanation. You see, your gonna have a hard time convincing anyone they recruit kindergartners. Now I have always been against performance based classifications, it's participation trophy mentality. Why punish anyone for success? That's just a hop, skip and a jump from removing the scoreboards.
Privates have boundaries. They're just larger than a lot of the publics. I think we should all read the handbook before we start talking about how boundaries play out though.
Here, let's do it your way. Tell privates they can't play for state titles in AAA. Let's see how far that goes. But, your last paragraph doesn't make sense. You absolutely want to punish PA and other privates by putting them in their own league. And it's the success that makes you think that. If they weren't winning, then the boundary discussion wouldn't be an issue.
Let's clear this up. I'm the most vocal on this board about change and about how many advantages private schools have. But I also want to move toward a solution, not something that would make things worse.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 28, 2017, 01:49:02 pm
Privates have boundaries. They're just larger than a lot of the publics. I think we should all read the handbook before we start talking about how boundaries play out though.
Here, let's do it your way. Tell privates they can't play for state titles in AAA. Let's see how far that goes. But, your last paragraph doesn't make sense. You absolutely want to punish PA and other privates by putting them in their own league. And it's the success that makes you think that. If they weren't winning, then the boundary discussion wouldn't be an issue.
Let's clear this up. I'm the most vocal on this board about change and about how many advantages private schools have. But I also want to move toward a solution, not something that would make things worse.
How is separating leagues punishing success? The bad private schools go in the same league as the good ones. All is does is level the playing field, which according to your post is already level. I'm being serious, I cannot think of a single advantage that PA has that any other school couldn't have. The financial aid issue is easily explained, I could have explained it a while ago but didn't simply because I felt it was a plank in the bigger issue. If the boundaries are a non starter then the aid issue equally as moot. Again, not being sarcastic, if it's beyond your belief that open boundaries isn't a plus then the glove does not fit.
So you don't think being selective is an advantage? Have 0 ESL kids? 0 free and reduced lunches? 0 remedial students? You don't believe the kids who attend have other socioeconomic advantages? And the aid isn't easily explained. There is a huge discrepancy between the ratios in PA football and other sports at PA and also the school overall. Also PA ratio in football compared to other schools who aren't very successful. So as far as easily explained, sure, in one respect about how it's rewarded. But that doesn't easily explain the discrepancy. This is all mentioned theoughout this entire thread. It's good reading.
I never said the playing field is level. Success advancement is by far the best option. For many reasons. And it's punishing the private schools and all of the kids who attend those by preventing them from competing for a state championship, which may also prevent those kids from being recognized by colleges.
Also, I'm not sure they have open boundaries. Tell me what you mean by "open."
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 28, 2017, 07:50:36 pm
Also, I'm not sure they have open boundaries. Tell me what you mean by "open."
If you live anywhere in the state you can attend a private school without any reason, no sitting out. You could live in Blytheville and use the Blytheville address and need no reason for attending. If your father fly a crop duster and was will to fly you to and from school/practice that's legal. No waiting period whatsoever, just show up and play.
The other issue's you list would have no bearing whatsoever on football. Batesville has students who are remedial, Spanish speaking and on full government aid. They don't usually play football, there status has no bearing positive or negative on the football team. I have a very close college friend who grew up in Los Angeles, we talk often about these issue's. He gave me two examples, The richest public high school in the United States is Beverly Hills High School. The average income of the students families is tops in the Nation, by a large margin. Their football ream has state of the art facilities, numerous uniform combinations, they get new ones every year. The players get to keep all their jerseys, tee shirts, hoodies, shoes and all other swag every year. Not just the seniors. They are putrid, horrible, they suck. Long Beach Poly is a very working class school, gang issues, poverty, outdated buildings and a few players sleeping on couches due to homelessness. They are a National Powerhouse, numerous NFL players and even had a reality show about them. They had 21 D-1 players one year. The economic positions of the families have a bearing, but not a major one. With BHHS and LBP they have one disadvantage, boundaries. If you want to play there you must live in the district, people get around that but they must have an address in the district, it's a sort of don't ask don't tell, arrangement. If you are caught using a false address, you get kicked out. Even with a "wink wink" transfer you must be a student for a solid semester before you play, closed boundaries.
I respectfully disagree on both issues. Especially with the part that those issues I stated have no bearing on football. That's a very narrow minded stance.
Private schools have the same transfer and attendance rules as public these days I'm pretty sure. Their boundary just isn't a district line, it's a 25 mile radius. However, school choice permits athletes in Arkansas to go to whatever school they want I'm pretty sure, they just have to sit out a year. Doesn't matter if it's public or private.
I love this discussion! I never thought I'd see two Batesville posters disagreeing about the advantages of private schools. Please continue the discussion. I'm fascinated.
Quote from: PA Dad on October 28, 2017, 08:55:14 pm
I love this discussion! I never thought I'd see two Batesville posters disagreeing about the advantages of private schools. Please continue the discussion. I'm fascinated.
I'm getting a standing 8 count. If wealthy students is it I just don't see the correlation to football success. I feel so deflated, what have I been doing with my life? It appears there is no Santa Claus.
Quote from: JessieP on October 28, 2017, 10:34:48 pm
I'm getting a standing 8 count. If wealthy students is it I just don't see the correlation to football success. I feel so deflated, what have I been doing with my life? It appears there is no Santa Claus.
What's your opinion on the boundaries now that I explained the rule above?
Quote from: JessieP on October 28, 2017, 10:34:48 pm
I'm getting a standing 8 count. If wealthy students is it I just don't see the correlation to football success. I feel so deflated, what have I been doing with my life? It appears there is no Santa Claus.
The many trappings of wealth is certainly a factor, Jessie. As a long time "school man", I can attest to the advantages that wealth (or at least living comfortably) had on all areas of a student's achievement. It's a factor. Now provide that advantage to every student in the school and you have created an atmosphere of success, achievement, and expectation that is rarely (but occasionally) achieved in the average public school. At that point you have an advantage upon which the school MAY capitalize, according to their priorities.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on October 29, 2017, 08:54:01 am
The many trappings of wealth is certainly a factor, Jessie. As a long time "school man", I can attest to the advantages that wealth (or at least living comfortably) had on all areas of a student's achievement. It's a factor. Now provide that advantage to every student in the school and you have created an atmosphere of success, achievement, and expectation that is rarely (but occasionally) achieved in the average public school. At that point you have an advantage upon which the school MAY capitalize, according to their priorities.
Very well done, thank you
Quote from: Intelligentsia on October 29, 2017, 08:54:01 am
The many trappings of wealth is certainly a factor, Jessie. As a long time "school man", I can attest to the advantages that wealth (or at least living comfortably) had on all areas of a student's achievement. It's a factor. Now provide that advantage to every student in the school and you have created an atmosphere of success, achievement, and expectation that is rarely (but occasionally) achieved in the average public school. At that point you have an advantage upon which the school MAY capitalize, according to their priorities.
Yes, it's an advantage, I agree 100%. It is not an unfair advantage, you do not make changes based on the environment in which the kids live. The only I have had with PA is unfair advantages, it seems there are none. I was falsely told by a BJHS assistant coach that you could only transfer and play football if the school you were attending didn't offer football. That appears to be wrong, you can play wherever you want, no reason needed. The confusing thing to me is that MDX posted separating the schools public/private would be disastrous because kids would be jumping ship mid season. Then he said they would have to sit out a year? which is it? it can't be both. I honestly did not realize that district boundaries have no bearing whatsoever in Arkansas interscholastic athletics, it's a sports buffet.
Quote from: JessieP on October 29, 2017, 12:24:26 pm
Yes, it's an advantage, I agree 100%. It is not an unfair advantage, you do not make changes based on the environment in which the kids live. The only I have had with PA is unfair advantages, it seems there are none. I was falsely told by a BJHS assistant coach that you could only transfer and play football if the school you were attending didn't offer football. That appears to be wrong, you can play wherever you want, no reason needed. The confusing thing to me is that MDX posted separating the schools public/private would be disastrous because kids would be jumping ship mid season. Then he said they would have to sit out a year? which is it? it can't be both. I honestly did not realize that district boundaries have no bearing whatsoever in Arkansas interscholastic athletics, it's a sports buffet.
I said if privates made their own leage they could make their own transfer rules. I explained above what the current rule is for AAA.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 29, 2017, 12:34:09 pm
I said if privates made their own leage they could make their own transfer rules. I explained above what the current rule is for AAA.
Again, I was uninformed. When I was playing, 275 years ago, they had boundaries. It was such a big deal that schools like Plano East, De Soto and Cedar Hill were often accused of renting apartments to establish residency. There were actual "spot checks" of some accused players addresses to see if they actually had clothes hanging in the closet or other proof they really lived there, not just using an address. I was ignorant to the rules of Arkansas, it's a free for all. A kid hates Black and Orange, just go to Cave City or Southside, no biggie. My whole thrust was that PA was not only beefing up their roster they were weakening other team's by poaching players. That has been shown to be false, the field is level. The funny thing is they are actually being treated unfairly, they should be a 4A team, can you imagine? Now that people have shown me where I was wrong the entire public school/private school debate seems stupid. Cuter cheerleaders has more bearing on success.
I'll respectfully disagree about the advantage issue. Privates do have that family resource advantage. As such, A remedy has been instituted. The question is, is that remedy sufficient to develop EQUITY (which is defined in this situation as unequal treatment to achieve equality). The remedy, as you know, is having privates play at a higher classification. It seems to be a fair remedy. Again, the question is, is moving up one classification sufficient? Two classifications? Three? My proposal (ad nauseam), is the success model applied to privates (for only the specific sport(s) in which they dominate.
Almost total random note: When I have the great pleasure of using the Latin "ad noseuem", it always reminds me of learning, during a visit to THE Colosseum, that the exits are called "vomitorium". Where the crowd is vomited out of the arena after an event!! Double side note, I also learned at the time that the word "arena" is derived from "harena" which is Latin for sand . The sand being placed on the ground to help soak up all the blood.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on October 29, 2017, 01:38:50 pm
Almost total random note: When I have the great pleasure of using the Latin "ad noseuem", it always reminds me of learning, during a visit to THE Colosseum, that the exits are called "vomitorium". Where the crowd is vomited out of the arena after an event!! Double side note, I also learned at the time that the word "arena" is derived from "harena" which is Latin for sand . The sand being placed on the ground to help soak up all the blood.
Speaking of random side notes, I went to a UFC title fight one time and 19,000 people went all out of their seats at once and thought the roof going to blow right off the place when the guys were going toe to toe beating the #$%^ out of each other. It was like an instinctual, primitive reaction that affected everyone all at once. Made me wonder what the Colosseum must of been like
Quote from: Overdahill on October 29, 2017, 02:20:42 pm
Speaking of random side notes, I went to a UFC title fight one time and 19,000 people went all out of their seats at once and thought the roof going to blow right off the place when the guys were going toe to toe beating the #$%^ out of each other. It was like an instinctual, primitive reaction that affected everyone all at once. Made me wonder what the Colosseum must of been like
Quote from: Intelligentsia on October 29, 2017, 01:38:50 pm
Almost total random note: When I have the great pleasure of using the Latin "ad noseuem", it always reminds me of learning, during a visit to THE Colosseum, that the exits are called "vomitorium". Where the crowd is vomited out of the arena after an event!! Double side note, I also learned at the time that the word "arena" is derived from "harena" which is Latin for sand . The sand being placehttp://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/Themes/core/images/bbc/table.gifd on the ground to help soak up all the blood.
Ha! I got ya both beat. You don't want to get into an educational/cultural reminiscing debate with me. One time I went to Branson and I won a free nights stay, all I had to do was listen to a 4 hour sales pitch. Top that!
Quote from: JessieP on October 29, 2017, 12:56:14 pm
Again, I was uninformed. When I was playing, 275 years ago, they had boundaries. It was such a big deal that schools like Plano East, De Soto and Cedar Hill were often accused of renting apartments to establish residency. There were actual "spot checks" of some accused players addresses to see if they actually had clothes hanging in the closet or other proof they really lived there, not just using an address. I was ignorant to the rules of Arkansas, it's a free for all. A kid hates Black and Orange, just go to Cave City or Southside, no biggie. My whole thrust was that PA was not only beefing up their roster they were weakening other team's by poaching players. That has been shown to be false, the field is level. The funny thing is they are actually being treated unfairly, they should be a 4A team, can you imagine? Now that people have shown me where I was wrong the entire public school/private school debate seems stupid. Cuter cheerleaders has more bearing on success.
I have 4 different school district busses that come by my house everyday. It needs to go back to the way it used to be where another district's bus didn't cross the line and snipe kids from that district. If they wanted to go to another district they had to find a way to get to that school. School choice laws changed all that and districts are battling for kids so much that they run busses all over other districts now. Now, that isn't that big a deal for the bigger cities, but for rural areas it causes 25 mile bus trips in some cases, and that's one way.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on October 29, 2017, 01:24:02 pm
I'll respectfully disagree about the advantage issue. Privates do have that family resource advantage. As such, A remedy has been instituted. The question is, is that remedy sufficient to develop EQUITY (which is defined in this situation as unequal treatment to achieve equality). The remedy, as you know, is having privates play at a higher classification. It seems to be a fair remedy. Again, the question is, is moving up one classification sufficient? Two classifications? Three? My proposal (ad nauseam), is the success model applied to privates (for only the specific sport(s) in which they dominate.
Bare minimum two classifications. It really wouldn't do much good this year. Pulaski Academy had a rough time pulling out a close win against a mediocre 4A team.
GO BULLDOGS!!!
Quote from: bulldogger15 on October 29, 2017, 08:23:01 pm
Bare minimum two classifications. It really wouldn't do much good this year. Pulaski Academy had a rough time pulling out a close win against a mediocre 4A team.
GO BULLDOGS!!!
Really? What 4A team did PA play? You need to check your facts. But, that's not surprising- you've never been concerned with facts.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 29, 2017, 12:34:09 pm
I said if privates made their own leage they could make their own transfer rules. I explained above what the current rule is for AAA.
Good thought. AAA guidelines apply to any school that plays for a State title. Boundary lines are subject to busing routes and county division lines...we all know this. I don't see a league for privates ever developing because there simply isn't as many private schools as public schools. They could always go independent but I don't ever see that happening.
Quote from: PA Dad on October 29, 2017, 08:51:58 pm
Really? What 4A team did PA play? You need to check your facts. But, that's not surprising- you've never been concerned with facts.
So true. Never let facts interfere with a good storyline. Some folk just dig a deeper hole everyday regarding lack of credibility.
Shoot....you mean we can't bluff our way on here?! :)
Quote from: PrivateLesson on October 29, 2017, 09:34:57 pm
Shoot....you mean we can't bluff our way on here?! :)
It's always fun to try.. keeps things interesting, to say the least
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 29, 2017, 09:28:02 pm
So true. Never let facts interfere with a good storyline. Some folk just dig a deeper hole everyday regarding lack of credibility.
You and PA Dad still don't get it. PA did lose to all 4A teams, in bulldogger's world. He's not lying, he is 100% honest. He spends virtually no time in our world (reality), his newspapers and tv shows write endlessly about Greenwoods 17 year undefeated streak. He has DVR'd every single one of PA's loses in their currant 26 game losing streak. In his world Coach Jones walks around naked all day every day and Coach Kelley sleeps under a bridge and begs for change. Bulldogger see's things so much clearer since he stopped taking that cursed Lithium and Seroquel. He is also expanding his horizons, he recently finished his first book. He was pleased with it except the pages he messed up and colored the leaves blue....why do you debate this clown? he has yet to post a cognitive lucid point.
Quote from: JessieP on October 29, 2017, 10:45:55 pm
You and PA Dad still don't get it. PA did lose to all 4A teams, in bulldogger's world. He's not lying, he is 100% honest. He spends virtually no time in our world (reality), his newspapers and tv shows write endlessly about Greenwoods 17 year undefeated streak. He has DVR'd every single one of PA's loses in their currant 26 game losing streak. In his world Coach Jones walks around naked all day every day and Coach Kelley sleeps under a bridge and begs for change. Bulldogger see's things so much clearer since he stopped taking that cursed Lithium and Seroquel. He is also expanding his horizons, he recently finished his first book. He was pleased with it except the pages he messed up and colored the leaves blue....why do you debate this clown? he has yet to post a cognitive lucid point.
What's wrong with Lithium?
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 30, 2017, 12:59:15 pm
What's wrong with Lithium?
Narrow therapeutic window, renal toxicity, et al. Properly utilized, it is an effective mood stabilizer.
(Not a MD, but stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night😋
Quote from: PrivateLesson on October 29, 2017, 09:01:06 pm
Good thought. AAA guidelines apply to any school that plays for a State title. Boundary lines are subject to busing routes and county division lines...we all know this. I don't see a league for privates ever developing because there simply isn't as many private schools as public schools. They could always go independent but I don't ever see that happening.
There doesn't have to be as many private schools to have their own league does there. I don't see it happening either but it would not hurt my feelings if it did.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on October 30, 2017, 03:16:44 pm
Narrow therapeutic window, renal toxicity, et al. Properly utilized, it is an effective mood stabilizer.
(Not a MD, but stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night😋
The voices in my head told me to flush the lithium, so I did.
Quote from: JessieP on October 30, 2017, 09:25:03 pm
The voices in my head told me to flush the lithium, so I did.
I guess that explains the report that Game & Fish biologists have noted that the cutthroat trout in the White River near Batesville have morphed into merciful trout, and are gathering in schools to sing Onward Pioneers.
Quote from: Bruin Backer on October 31, 2017, 09:15:09 am
I guess that explains the report that Game & Fish biologists have noted that the cutthroat trout in the White River near Batesville have morphed into merciful trout, and are gathering in schools to sing Onward Pioneers.
And there's a lot more of them, I also flushed the Viagra. That came from the voice that sleeps next to me.
Quote from: JessieP on October 31, 2017, 09:25:23 am
And there's a lot more of them, I also flushed the Viagra. That came from the voice that sleeps next to me.
The patron gods of procreation thank you profusely 😜
I'm not touching that one. lol
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on October 30, 2017, 08:21:57 pm
There doesn't have to be as many private schools to have their own league does there. I don't see it happening either but it would not hurt my feelings if it did.
No, I don't think so but I don't know how you could justify a few schools in a seperate league unless maybe you could extend that to surrounding states? I lean more towards something of the model Mr.PhD has come up with but even then the question of fairness to all schools comes up once again. I don't know a win-win solution.
I have always thought of the AAA as an organization that starts with public schools that allowed private school participation. The big loosers would be private schools not public if the private had to go to their own league. Private schools should work harder to avoid the claims of recruitment, and all that other stuff.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 03, 2016, 04:55:59 pm
being a walk on isnt the issue. Being a D1 player is. If they walked on and made the squad, them they are a D1 athlete. Who's that guy that was at Arkansas that walked on the I think they made a movie about him, you know went on to sign with the NFL.
This is too funny lets use an example of an incredible feat and try and make it the ordinary!! If that's the case everyone needs to watch movie on Vince Papale who was a regular guy who tried out with the Eagles and made the team and played 2 years in the NFL. So what does Brandon Burlsworth who is a graduate of Harrison AR have anything to do with private school kids. Is it just the fact that he walked on and you needed a success story? I promise there are more walk ons that never see the field than Brandon's
Have any of you ever read about the formation of the AAA and the current 300+ schools it governs? It discusses private schools.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on October 31, 2017, 12:10:14 pm
I have always thought of the AAA as an organization that starts with public schools that allowed private school participation. The big loosers would be private schools not public if the private had to go to their own league. Private schools should work harder to avoid the claims of recruitment, and all that other stuff.
To be fair......private schools are not the only schools who have been subject to the claims of recruitment.
Quote from: MDXPHD on October 27, 2017, 02:21:33 pm
It would be disastrous to the public schools. Regardless of how competitive it is, the public schools would suffer greatly. If you guys think privates don't play by the rules or have too relaxed rules now, could you imagine what their rules would allow them to do if they created their own league? Public schools would be losing athletes left and right. Separating them is absolutely not the answer.
Lets just give all the Public Schools that "cant compete" participation awards. That way their all winners!!! Sounds like if the SEC decided that AL was winning too many titles so they refused to allow them to play in the SEC championship anymore so other teams would have more of a chance.
Quote from: bulldogger15 on October 29, 2017, 08:23:01 pm
Bare minimum two classifications. It really wouldn't do much good this year. Pulaski Academy had a rough time pulling out a close win against a mediocre 4A team.
GO BULLDOGS!!!
Im not even a PA fan and this is too good coming from the ND of High School Football. Let us know when you play a real 7A school!!! Did you beat Army and Navy again I mean Northside and Southside??? Good job!!!
You know we are only talking about 10 private schools in Arkansas that play football in the AAA. I know there are a few that play in the Mississippi private school league, and a few that play 8 man in Oklahoma.
But the 10 schools out of 200+ that play football, their combined record is 43-47. It is not like they are winning every championship.
So why are we arguing here?
Quote from: rzrbackfan on October 31, 2017, 01:26:29 pm
Im not even a PA fan and this is too good coming from the ND of High School Football. Let us know when you play a real 7A school!!! Did you beat Army and Navy again I mean Northside and Southside??? Good job!!!
2017
Greenwood 24 vs Northside 7
Greenwood 49 vs Southside 0
2016
Greenwood 33 vs Northside 25
Greenwood 56 vs Southside 34
2015
Greenwood 63 vs Springdale 28
Greenwood 38 vs Southside 31
Greenwood 34 vs Northside 24
Greenwood 45 vs Van Buren 14
Greenwood 56 vs Conway 19
Greenwood 38 vs Bryant 7
Greenwood 42 vs LR Catholic 21
Please continue with your logic.
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on October 31, 2017, 03:25:00 pm
2017
Greenwood 24 vs Northside 7
Greenwood 49 vs Southside 0
2016
Greenwood 33 vs Northside 25
Greenwood 56 vs Southside 34
2015
Greenwood 63 vs Springdale 28
Greenwood 38 vs Southside 31
Greenwood 34 vs Northside 24
Greenwood 45 vs Van Buren 14
Greenwood 56 vs Conway 19
Greenwood 38 vs Bryant 7
Greenwood 42 vs LR Catholic 21
Please continue with your logic.
2016
Russellville 37, Greenwood 23
Greenwood 31, Pine Bluff 30
Greenwood 27, Russellville 24
2015
Pine Bluff 28, Greenwood 21
Point is a win is a win. I am not saying at all Greenwood is overrated in any means. I think they have put together some of the best football teams in the State! Sometimes you aren't very lucky in the teams in your region and you play down to their level. I would bet weekly on Greenwood VS any 7A school, but they don't have the opportunity to play more than Northside / Southside usually. As shown by your message 2017 and 2016 Northside and Southside.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on November 01, 2017, 11:52:52 am
2016
Russellville 37, Greenwood 23
Greenwood 31, Pine Bluff 30
Greenwood 27, Russellville 24
2015
Pine Bluff 28, Greenwood 21
Point is a win is a win. I am not saying at all Greenwood is overrated in any means. I think they have put together some of the best football teams in the State! Sometimes you aren't very lucky in the teams in your region and you play down to their level. I would bet weekly on Greenwood VS any 7A school, but they don't have the opportunity to play more than Northside / Southside usually. As shown by your message 2017 and 2016 Northside and Southside.
Your post said "Let us know when you play a real 7A school!!!" I gave you our record against 7A schools over the past 3 years. Don't spout off crap, and then when you're put in your place, change the argument!
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on November 01, 2017, 12:39:51 pm
Your post said "Let us know when you play a real 7A school!!!" I gave you our record against 7A schools over the past 3 years. Don't spout off crap, and then when you're put in your place, change the argument!
My place?? HA HA so in 2015 you played more than Northside and Southside. Congrats rest of the years is exactly like I said you played Northside and Southside and beat them. Congrats!!!
.
Does anyone know if any schools, public or private, are having athletes redshirt their 8th grade year? Here's an article explaining what I'm talking about:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.nj.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/09/how_redshirting_is_changing_hs_sports.amp
Years ago, I heard that LRCA had some players doing this, but I have no idea if it was true. I'd be interested to know.
Quote from: dip2172 on November 03, 2017, 03:13:16 pm
Does anyone know if any schools, public or private, are having athletes redshirt their 8th grade year? Here's an article explaining what I'm talking about:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.nj.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/09/how_redshirting_is_changing_hs_sports.amp
Years ago, I heard that LRCA had some players doing this, but I have no idea if it was true. I'd be interested to know.
This has been going on for years. Seen it at all type schools. My guess it is more specific to parents' decisions than it is to school.
A lot of parents just start their kids a year late these days. It doesn't help in just sports, but a year difference in maturity at high school and junior high is huge. It also depends on when their birthday falls too.
A book I recently read, Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, touches on this. It also touches on how the birthdays can effect pro athletes as well. Interesting read if any of you guys have some free time.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on November 03, 2017, 03:19:05 pm
This has been going on for years. Seen it at all type schools. My guess it is more specific to parents' decisions than it is to school.
I see it quite a bit at PA, but the boys were held back early in elementary school, not 8th grade. Wouldn't hazard a guess as to what percentage, but it happens.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 03, 2017, 03:37:15 pm
A lot of parents just start their kids a year late these days. It doesn't help in just sports, but a year difference in maturity at high school and junior high is huge. It also depends on when their birthday falls too.
A book I recently read, Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, touches on this. It also touches on how the birthdays can effect pro athletes as well. Interesting read if any of you guys have some free time.
Great book. The 10,000 hour rule is very interesting.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 03, 2017, 03:43:27 pm
Great book. The 10,000 hour rule is very interesting.
Agreed. If only I had that much time to put into one thing...
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on November 03, 2017, 03:37:40 pm
I see it quite a bit at PA, but the boys were held back early in elementary school, not 8th grade. Wouldn't hazard a guess as to what percentage, but it happens.
When my son was a senior, most of the juniors were older than him. All had started elemenfary school late
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on November 03, 2017, 03:19:05 pm
This has been going on for years. Seen it at all type schools. My guess it is more specific to parents' decisions than it is to school.
I had a son and a daughter born in Texas; guess which one they held back? Sent him him from 1st grade on day one :D
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 03, 2017, 03:45:37 pm
Agreed. If only I had that much time to put into one thing...
Don't you have that many hours on Fearless Friday. ;D
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 03, 2017, 04:53:50 pm
Don't you have that many hours on Fearless Friday. ;D
Not quite I don't think! But I can't wait to become an expert on here.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 03, 2017, 04:55:56 pm
Not quite I don't think! But I can't wait to become an expert on here.
Be patient
I'm bumping this back to the top for other new comers like myself. Imo this single largest issue in high school sports.
http://highschoolsports.al.com/news/article/7525968876148278394/what-private-school-teams-are-moving-up-because-of-competitive-balance/
Article about Alabama's private school rule effects
Quote from: MDXPHD on April 10, 2017, 02:00:59 pm
These numbers represent the number of football players in grades 10-12 that received financial aid for 2016.
Conway Christian - 1
Shiloh - 2
Harding - 4
Episcopal - 5
CAC - 5
Baptist - 6
Catholic - 7
LRCA - 9
Pulaski Academy - 20 (won state championship)
Catholic has 758 students in their school alone. LRCA is also larger than PA with 817 students enrolled. Do what you want with this information, but it seemed important on this thread and the 5A football board. I don't have much time to post these days, but I'll post more information if it seems important enough. Also, let me know if I left out a football school. It seems that there are 9 or so in the state, with 209 schools overall that participate in football. I probably won't have time to respond to any inquiries regarding this post, just a heads up.
Bringing this back because it's fun to see. If only LRCA had offered more scholarships...they may have closed the gap a little. Trending in the right direction though.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:10:25 am
These numbers are interesting. They are actually broken down by sport...but I only have the fall sports (and these are high school numbers).Financial aid isn't anything other than the award based off need...it has nothing to do with teachers at the school or any type of tuition discount. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.
Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
I have to know...is anybody shocked that 33 percent of their high school football team receives financial aid? 1/3 of their high school football team...
And financial aid isn't just capped at half of tuition...it can be quite a bit. The financial aid forms that I have show students were awarded anywhere from $14025.00 (more than actual tuition) to $1500.00. The majority of athletes who get financial aid are receiving over 6k per year.
I can't get the Spring sports until next May I don't think.
This is still good stuff.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2017, 09:11:59 pm
This is still good stuff.
Are we recycling? I hear it's good for the environment.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 03, 2017, 09:19:10 pm
Are we recycling? I hear it's good for the environment.
I just remembered how the numbers were so out of line compared to the other sports and the school. Thought I would bring it back.
Regardless, onto the other boards! Football season is over and the champs are who we thought they would be..No surprise there. Congrats!
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2017, 09:25:02 pm
I just remembered how the numbers were so out of line compared to the other sports and the school. Thought I would bring it back.
Regardless, onto the other boards! Football season is over and the champs are who we thought they would be..No surprise there. Congrats!
If you haven't made your point by now, after two years, you never will.
Those numbers are striking. Isn't it a violation for a school, coach, fan to give gifts to a student to entice them into coming to play ball at their school?
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2017, 10:08:20 am
Those numbers are striking. Isn't it a violation for a school, coach, fan to give gifts to a student to entice them into coming to play ball at their school?
striking...yes...BUT have not been confirmed. Just because it is written, does not mean its true.....plus...wasn't a public school coach the last coach sanctioned for recruiting? AND...if not mistaken...had several players on his team this year...transfer in from several other schools prior to the season...just a thought....and to be honest...I no longer have a dog in the fight, my son finished with 4 rings and a heck of a high school career, and I NEVER SAW ANYTHING REMOTELY THAT WOULD RESEMBLE anything done outside the rules by coaches or school faculty.
Quote from: STBruin on December 07, 2017, 11:18:52 am
striking...yes...BUT have not been confirmed. Just because it is written, does not mean its true.....plus...wasn't a public school coach the last coach sanctioned for recruiting? AND...if not mistaken...had several players on his team this year...transfer in from several other schools prior to the season...just a thought....and to be honest...I no longer have a dog in the fight, my son finished with 4 rings and a heck of a high school career, and I NEVER SAW ANYTHING REMOTELY THAT WOULD RESEMBLE anything done outside the rules by coaches or school faculty.
Why am I not surprised? If you did would you admit it? I don't think they are stupid enough to do it in plain sight.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2017, 12:00:04 pm
Why am I not surprised? If you did would you admit it? I don't think they are stupid enough to do it in plain sight.
If I did...I wouldn't be on here defending it...plain and simple
The numbers are without question out of sync. If aid is given blindly, as PA claims, then the numbers would be identical across the board. I find it telling that no one can offer any explanation of the higher rate of football players receiving aid. Why? I mean if you want to shut people up at least give some off the wall made up story. It's funny how whenever anyone ask why the percentage of football players receiving aid is so much higher the response is crickets chirping and tumbleweeds.
First, I'd like to determine where these numbers come from. I'm just asking. I don't think it's fair to question PAs ethics until we validate these numbers as factual.
Second, financial aid is not given out blindly. A student must demonstrate the ability to maintain a high GPA and be an active member of the student body (I.e. band, debate team, fine arts, or sports).
Third, as to the specific question regarding why more football players receive aid, here is my take. There are plenty of quality private schools in the area that can provide a high quality education. Clearly, we have the top private school football program. So, as a parent, if that's important, you would target PA. That's just my guess.
(https://i.imgflip.com/210pl5.jpg)
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on December 13, 2017, 01:12:19 pm
(https://i.imgflip.com/210pl5.jpg)
Chad Morris was on campus yesterday. He really wants 2 PA players. I think he is going to send some 4 star Texas players to finish high school at PA in exchange.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 14, 2017, 09:57:13 am
Chad Morris was on campus yesterday. He really wants 2 PA players. I think he is going to send some 4 star Texas players to finish high school at PA in exchange.
that would be a downgrade for what PA usually gets.
Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on December 14, 2017, 10:05:12 am
that would be a downgrade for what PA usually gets.
Times are tough all over.
20 years ago a separate private school division for Arkansas would've been too small and never would have worked. Today I think it can, and it has a chance to grow thanks to charter schools and the possibility of homeschool teams as much as new privates.
Introducing my proposal for AAPCHS (Arkansas Association of Private, Charter and Home Schools).
Somebody hook me up with a supe so we can get this proposal on the ballot.
First rule: LR Catholic/MSM must remain in the AAA at the 7A level because they're too big. Existing AAA eligibility rules for private schools will continue to apply.
After that, I propose one division for football schools and three for all other sports:
Football Division: LR Christian, Pulaski Academy, Subiaco Academy, Shiloh Christian, CAC, Baptist Prep, Harding Academy, LR Episcopal Collegiate, Conway Christian*. (9 teams)
Other sports:
Division I: LR Christian, Pulaski Academy, eSTEM, Subiaco Academy, Shiloh Christian, CAC, Lisa Academy LR, Jax Lighthouse. (8 teams, 7 for girls)
Division II: Baptist Prep, Harding Academy, LR Episcopal Collegiate, Haas Hall, Arkansas Arts Academy, Haas Hall - Bentonville, Conway St. Joseph, Conway Christian. (8 teams)
Division III: West: Maumelle Charter, Future School FS, Trinity Christian, Morrilton Sacred Heart, NWA Classical, New School; East: KIPP Blytheville, Lisa Academy NLR, Abundant Life, Crowley's Ridge Academy, Ridgefield Christian, Quest Academy. (12 teams split into 2 conferences)
* — I expect Conway Christian to balk at this at the start and rightly so because they're so small, but the addition of football teams in the future should result in a conference split and level the playing field for them.
Quote from: friscokid on December 15, 2017, 01:08:24 am
Introducing my proposal for AAPCHS (Arkansas Association of Private, Charter and Home Schools).
Somebody hook me up with a supe so we can get this proposal on the ballot.
First rule: LR Catholic/MSM must remain in the AAA at the 7A level because they're too big. Existing AAA eligibility rules for private schools will continue to apply.
After that, I propose one division for football schools and three for all other sports:
Football Division: LR Christian, Pulaski Academy, Subiaco Academy, Shiloh Christian, CAC, Baptist Prep, Harding Academy, LR Episcopal Collegiate, Conway Christian*. (9 teams)
Other sports:
Division I: LR Christian, Pulaski Academy, eSTEM, Subiaco Academy, Shiloh Christian, CAC, Lisa Academy LR, Jax Lighthouse. (8 teams, 7 for girls)
Division II: Baptist Prep, Harding Academy, LR Episcopal Collegiate, Haas Hall, Arkansas Arts Academy, Haas Hall - Bentonville, Conway St. Joseph, Conway Christian. (8 teams)
Division III: West: Maumelle Charter, Future School FS, Trinity Christian, Morrilton Sacred Heart, NWA Classical, New School; East: KIPP Blytheville, Lisa Academy NLR, Abundant Life, Crowley's Ridge Academy, Ridgefield Christian, Quest Academy. (12 teams split into 2 conferences)
* — I expect Conway Christian to balk at this at the start and rightly so because they're so small, but the addition of football teams in the future should result in a conference split and level the playing field for them.
Expecting Episcopal, Harding Academy, Conway Christian, Subiaco and Arkansas Baptist to play football against PA and LRCA isn't fair to those schools.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 15, 2017, 09:39:05 am
Expecting Episcopal, Harding Academy, Conway Christian, Subiaco and Arkansas Baptist to play football against PA and LRCA isn't fair to those schools.
Right...because fairness is what PA is worried about. ::)
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 15, 2017, 10:11:34 am
Right...because fairness is what PA is worried about. ::)
I defend PA and you have a problem with it. I said that this plan unfavorably advantages PA and you have a problem with it.
You said that it is not fair for PA to play in 5A, but you've also said that PA doesn't belong in the conversation about the best team in the state because they are outclassed by NLR and Greenwood.
Can PA just give Batesville one of its state championship trophies laying around and you go off and be satisfied for a little while?
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 15, 2017, 10:29:52 am
I defend PA and you have a problem with it. I said that this plan unfavorably advantages PA and you have a problem with it.
You said that it is not fair for PA to play in 5A, but you've also said that PA doesn't belong in the conversation about the best team in the state because they are outclassed by NLR and Greenwood.
Can PA just give Batesville one of its state championship trophies laying around and you go off and be satisfied for a little while?
Over the past few weeks I have been doing some digging, the internet does offer more than porn, and found some interesting things. I assumed this thread was dead but it seems to rise from the dead every so often. I looked into a few Nationally known football powerhouse programs, De La Salle, Mater Dei, St. Joes and even IMG (although they hardly count as a high school), you know what I found out? They all play in leagues designated for private schools. They do not qualify for State titles where public schools compete. The main reason given for this action, across the board, AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE! It seems that many other States, that are not Arkansas, realize that recruiting, lack of boundaries (sorry MDX but I found Arkansas does enforce boundaries to an extent) financial advantages and other factors make for a tilted playing field.
Now here is the shocking part, some of you may need to sit down. Not one of those schools opposed the classification one bit. They all readily admitted the advantages and acknowledge that winning under those circumstances wasn't an indicator of true achievement. Possibly another factor could be that none of those schools have any pull whatsoever with their governing bodies, that's probably the big difference between them and the AAA.
If private schools in Arkansas were forced out of the public school league those schools would most likely loose a bunch of athletes. Two things would be evident, they were there for the athletics and those private schools would not be at the same level of play as they were before.
Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 11:28:08 am
Over the past few weeks I have been doing some digging, the internet does offer more than porn, and found some interesting things. I assumed this thread was dead but it seems to rise from the dead every so often. I looked into a few Nationally known football powerhouse programs, De La Salle, Mater Dei, St. Joes and even IMG (although they hardly count as a high school), you know what I found out? They all play in leagues designated for private schools. They do not qualify for State titles where public schools compete. The main reason given for this action, across the board, AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE! It seems that many other States, that are not Arkansas, realize that recruiting, lack of boundaries (sorry MDX but I found Arkansas does enforce boundaries to an extent) financial advantages and other factors make for a tilted playing field.
Now here is the shocking part, some of you may need to sit down. Not one of those schools opposed the classification one bit. They all readily admitted the advantages and acknowledge that winning under those circumstances wasn't an indicator of true achievement. Possibly another factor could be that none of those schools have any pull whatsoever with their governing bodies, that's probably the big difference between them and the AAA.
To go to any of those schools you mentioned, you don't have to be a resident of their respective state. That is not true of the AAA.
But this just in, the PA has convinced the AAA to award the 2018 and 2019 state titles to PA. It helps to have pull. Six-peat suckers.
That rule can be easily avoided by renting an apartment in town and staying there during the week.
There are plenty of quality private schools in the area that can provide a high quality education. Clearly, we have the top private school football program. So, as a parent, if that's important, you would target PA. That's just my guess.
I wonder do you have the top private school football program because of kids on scholarship? If I could give a kid more money than actual tuition, if that is true, then isn't that paying them to play.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 15, 2017, 12:49:02 pm
To go to any of those schools you mentioned, you don't have to be a resident of their respective state. That is not true of the AAA.
But this just in, the PA has convinced the AAA to award the 2018 and 2019 state titles to PA. It helps to have pull. Six-peat suckers.
Now that is true, every team I mentioned has had players "move in" to play there. A few from out of State. You see I always thought the single biggest advantage PA had was boundaries. MDX and others put me in my place. According to the FF posters anyone can play for any team any time they want. Now the AAA web site say's other but some people here paint it out like you could start the season at Batesville, lose the first 2 games and Monday morning after the second loss you could transfer to Wynne and play that Friday.. Both MDX and Intelligentsia have stated "any player can play for any team they chose". Maybe that's the difference, other States admit it happens, Arkansas denies it. I don't know, but on your point you are correct, the other teams I mentioned draw from hundreds of miles.
Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 02:31:41 pm
Now that is true, every team I mentioned has had players "move in" to play there. A few from out of State. You see I always thought the single biggest advantage PA had was boundaries. MDX and others put me in my place. According to the FF posters anyone can play for any team any time they want. Now the AAA web site say's other but some people here paint it out like you could start the season at Batesville, lose the first 2 games and Monday morning after the second loss you could transfer to Wynne and play that Friday.. Both MDX and Intelligentsia have stated "any player can play for any team they chose". Maybe that's the difference, other States admit it happens, Arkansas denies it. I don't know, but on your point you are correct, the other teams I mentioned draw from hundreds of miles.
School choice allows any player to play for any school, whether he resides in the district or not. However, if they transfer after the 7th grade year, they must sit out one full year. Just like if a player transfers to a private school, they must sit out one full year to participate in sports unless they are within the "district" (a 25 mile radius I believe). Anyone can move within the district and if it is a bonafide move, they will be allowed to participate in any sport that year. However, one limitation on this is if the player had already started the season at a different school. If this is the case, he wouldn't be eligible for that specific sport for that year, regardless of the bonafide move.
If you would like to discuss in more depth, we can. I don't really see what the confusion is here though. I don't believe I have ever said a player can play the same sport at 2-3 different schools the same sports season. I doubt Intelligentsia has either.
Has to wait 365 days if they move after the season, or transfer out of district.
Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 11:28:08 am
Over the past few weeks I have been doing some digging, the internet does offer more than porn, and found some interesting things. I assumed this thread was dead but it seems to rise from the dead every so often. I looked into a few Nationally known football powerhouse programs, De La Salle, Mater Dei, St. Joes and even IMG (although they hardly count as a high school), you know what I found out? They all play in leagues designated for private schools. They do not qualify for State titles where public schools compete. The main reason given for this action, across the board, AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE! It seems that many other States, that are not Arkansas, realize that recruiting, lack of boundaries (sorry MDX but I found Arkansas does enforce boundaries to an extent) financial advantages and other factors make for a tilted playing field.
Now here is the shocking part, some of you may need to sit down. Not one of those schools opposed the classification one bit. They all readily admitted the advantages and acknowledge that winning under those circumstances wasn't an indicator of true achievement. Possibly another factor could be that none of those schools have any pull whatsoever with their governing bodies, that's probably the big difference between them and the AAA.
Yet another lame argument for separating out the privates from the publics in Arkansas. Let's look at the private high school enrollment numbers from the AAA. I will put include Catholic/MSM for a realistic analysis:
Catholic High/MSM 970
Little Rock Christian Academy 405
Pulaski Academy 311
Subiaco Academy 251
Shiloh Christian 231
Central Arkansas Christian 192
Baptist Prep 179
Harding Academy 177
Episcopal Collegiate 152
Conway Christian 92
St. Joseph 93
Trinity Christian 60
Abundant Life 59
Crowley's Ridge Academy 57
Ridgefield Christian 53
Sacred Heart 53
There are 17 private high schools in Arkansas with an enrollment of 3,335. The total enrollment of all high schools in Arkansas is 112,337, so the privates represent 2.9 % of the HS student population.
Since you mentioned Mater Dei, let's look at California.
There are 430 private high schools in California with an enrollment of 133,000 students. The total enrollment of all high schools in California is 2,008,650, so the privates represent 6.6 % of the HS student population. Trinity League is just one of many private school leagues in California and consists of just seven of the private high schools in the Los Angeles area.:
Mater Dei 2100
Santa Margarita Catholic 1700
Lutheran 1322
Jserra Catholic 1200
Servite (boys) 920
St. John Bosco (boys) 820
Rosary Academy (girls) 370
Total Trinity League Enrollmen 8432
So as you can see, California (and the other states mentioned) have large enough of a private student populations to separate and have their own league, Arkansas obviously does not. heck, the entire private high school population of Arkansas is outnumbered by just Mater Dei and Santa Margarita.
So, we are back to the true heart of the matter - Is winning so important that you want to eliminate the competition by segregating them out? Personally, I want to prove myself against the best. Removing your competition by administrative means makes any championship you receive just a participation trophy.
You still haven't made a good argument for private schools being able to play with public. Only one I can see is the goodness of the public schools heart to allow them to play. Your argument just reinforces that goodness argument. If public schools really got a lot of transfers into their district to play ball then it might be different. To me 30+ kids on scholarship playing football is a real advantage that public schools don't show. As long as private schools can stack the deck like some do I don't think there is much that will fix it unless they go play in their own league. Yeah, lets let a school that padded its roster with move ins and scholarship players play against us jut to see if our home town boys can beat them. If you want to go to a private school do everything with a private school.
There is no policing of the public schools, but let's complain about the private schools...school of choice is the biggest joke in regards to athletics...kids can go where ever they want, if they aren't happy, go some where else the next year...still not happy... go some where else
Quote from: RazorDad on December 15, 2017, 02:58:05 pm
Yet another lame argument for separating out the privates from the publics in Arkansas. Let's look at the private high school enrollment numbers from the AAA. I will put include Catholic/MSM for a realistic analysis:
Catholic High/MSM 970
Little Rock Christian Academy 405
Pulaski Academy 311
Subiaco Academy 251
Shiloh Christian 231
Central Arkansas Christian 192
Baptist Prep 179
Harding Academy 177
Episcopal Collegiate 152
Conway Christian 92
St. Joseph 93
Trinity Christian 60
Abundant Life 59
Crowley's Ridge Academy 57
Ridgefield Christian 53
Sacred Heart 53
There are 17 private high schools in Arkansas with an enrollment of 3,335. The total enrollment of all high schools in Arkansas is 112,337, so the privates represent 2.9 % of the HS student population.
Since you mentioned Mater Dei, let's look at California.
There are 430 private high schools in California with an enrollment of 133,000 students. The total enrollment of all high schools in California is 2,008,650, so the privates represent 6.6 % of the HS student population. Trinity League is just one of many private school leagues in California and consists of just seven of the private high schools in the Los Angeles area.:
Mater Dei 2100
Santa Margarita Catholic 1700
Lutheran 1322
Jserra Catholic 1200
Servite (boys) 920
St. John Bosco (boys) 820
Rosary Academy (girls) 370
Total Trinity League Enrollmen 8432
So as you can see, California (and the other states mentioned) have large enough of a private student populations to separate and have their own league, Arkansas obviously does not. heck, the entire private high school population of Arkansas is outnumbered by just Mater Dei and Santa Margarita.
So, we are back to the true heart of the matter - Is winning so important that you want to eliminate the competition by segregating them out? Personally, I want to prove myself against the best. Removing your competition by administrative means makes any championship you receive just a participation trophy.
That is an interesting point. In fact I'd say it is quite profound. "Personally, I want to prove myself against the best." I couldn't agree more! Very very astute! Not only astute but spot on accurate. BTW, are you aware that Arkansas has a 6A and a 7A? It's funny how some, not all but some, PA fans want to jump right into the middle of the "Who's the best overall team in the State" discussion. Yet when forcing them to go to the highest classification becomes the discussion they reply "Don't be jealous" or "Why punish us for success, figure out a way to beat us". Your California point is correct, it's hardly apples to apples. The population of Southern California is such that you could make 10 Private school leagues and every school in every league would be as big as our 7A, Mater Dei was not the best example. It's just funny how, to some PA fans, moving up would be a punishment if discussed before or during the season, yet when the season is over they feel they belong in the "Who's best discussion". "Personally, I want to prove myself against the best." is the best point of all, the real question is why hasn't PA demanded that? Why would that be considered punishment?
Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 04:43:46 pm
That is an interesting point. In fact I'd say it is quite profound. "Personally, I want to prove myself against the best." I couldn't agree more! Very very astute! Not only astute but spot on accurate. BTW, are you aware that Arkansas has a 6A and a 7A? It's funny how some, not all but some, PA fans want to jump right into the middle of the "Who's the best overall team in the State" discussion. Yet when forcing them to go to the highest classification becomes the discussion they reply "Don't be jealous" or "Why punish us for success, figure out a way to beat us". Your California point is correct, it's hardly apples to apples. The population of Southern California is such that you could make 10 Private school leagues and every school in every league would be as big as our 7A, Mater Dei was not the best example. It's just funny how, to some PA fans, moving up would be a punishment if discussed before or during the season, yet when the season is over they feel they belong in the "Who's best discussion". "Personally, I want to prove myself against the best." is the best point of all, the real question is why hasn't PA demanded that? Why would that be considered punishment?
Go look at my prior posts. I've always said that PA should move up.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 15, 2017, 04:46:35 pm
Go look at my prior posts. I've always said that PA should move up.
You are why I made a point to say some, not all. You have never said they shouldn't, you have never denied the advantages and you have never claimed they could bump heads with the best of the best. I find your praise of PA to be reasonable, informed and with managed expectations. I was very cognizant to word my post the way I did. Red Devil Alum, Bruin Backer and yourself have never taken the stance "we're the best because we work harder and will take on any and all challengers". Look at my past post, I have always maintained the majority of PA posters are articulate, informed and humble. Like Freud said "Humans ignore the 80% positive and focus on the 20% negative". It's the 20%, very much the minority, of PA fans who see the VV score and say "Heck, we could do that to IMG". I have never denied PA is the best football team in the 5A, not once. What gets me is the nimrods who start in with the "Were ranked in the Nation" or "Kelly should take over the Razorbacks" nonsense that angers up the blood. Heck, there is one fan that claims the East Salt Lake game was competitive.
Quote from: footballfan-tastic on December 15, 2017, 01:03:04 pm
There are plenty of quality private schools in the area that can provide a high quality education. Clearly, we have the top private school football program. So, as a parent, if that's important, you would target PA. That's just my guess.
I wonder do you have the top private school football program because of kids on scholarship? If I could give a kid more money than actual tuition, if that is true, then isn't that paying them to play.
OMG this commit is so ridiculous. Why would PA pay players?!? PA doesn't make money off of the football team, unlike a football academy or a university program.
Please think about your accusations before printing comments like this. PA is a college prep school that happens to have a great football coach (and staff) and dedicated players. The end.
Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 05:10:38 pm
You are why I made a point to say some, not all. You have never said they shouldn't, you have never denied the advantages and you have never claimed they could bump heads with the best of the best. I find your praise of PA to be reasonable, informed and with managed expectations. I was very cognizant to word my post the way I did. Red Devil Alum, Bruin Backer and yourself have never taken the stance "we're the best because we work harder and will take on any and all challengers". Look at my past post, I have always maintained the majority of PA posters are articulate, informed and humble. Like Freud said "Humans ignore the 80% positive and focus on the 20% negative". It's the 20%, very much the minority, of PA fans who see the VV score and say "Heck, we could do that to IMG". I have never denied PA is the best football team in the 5A, not once. What gets me is the nimrods who start in with the "Were ranked in the Nation" or "Kelly should take over the Razorbacks" nonsense that angers up the blood. Heck, there is one fan that claims the East Salt Lake game was competitive.
I like most of your posts because you are direct, sometimes to the point of being blunt. Nothing wrong with that.
What gets lost in this thread are the facts. PA does not have a bunch of players moving in. Most have been at PA since grade school. The few move ins we've had generally come from out of state. So the argument that PA is grabbing talent from other schools just has no factual support.
I've pointed this out many times before so I know this will convince none of the naysayers. But I still want the facts noted.
Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 05:10:38 pm
You are why I made a point to say some, not all. You have never said they shouldn't, you have never denied the advantages and you have never claimed they could bump heads with the best of the best. I find your praise of PA to be reasonable, informed and with managed expectations. I was very cognizant to word my post the way I did. Red Devil Alum, Bruin Backer and yourself have never taken the stance "we're the best because we work harder and will take on any and all challengers". Look at my past post, I have always maintained the majority of PA posters are articulate, informed and humble. Like Freud said "Humans ignore the 80% positive and focus on the 20% negative". It's the 20%, very much the minority, of PA fans who see the VV score and say "Heck, we could do that to IMG". I have never denied PA is the best football team in the 5A, not once. What gets me is the nimrods who start in with the "Were ranked in the Nation" or "Kelly should take over the Razorbacks" nonsense that angers up the blood. Heck, there is one fan that claims the East Salt Lake game was competitive.
I support PA moving up, but that's not PAs choice.
PA does work harder than most, that's why they win. Feel free to articulate what the private school advantage means in points. I've never denied it's an advantage but don't give it more credit than its due. It doesn't provide four-peats.
That poster that said the salt lake game was competitive, pointed out the fact that PA out scored Salt Lake in the second half against starters. He was also a coach, so consider that.
Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 05:10:38 pm
You are why I made a point to say some, not all. You have never said they shouldn't, you have never denied the advantages and you have never claimed they could bump heads with the best of the best. I find your praise of PA to be reasonable, informed and with managed expectations. I was very cognizant to word my post the way I did. Red Devil Alum, Bruin Backer and yourself have never taken the stance "we're the best because we work harder and will take on any and all challengers". Look at my past post, I have always maintained the majority of PA posters are articulate, informed and humble. Like Freud said "Humans ignore the 80% positive and focus on the 20% negative". It's the 20%, very much the minority, of PA fans who see the VV score and say "Heck, we could do that to IMG". I have never denied PA is the best football team in the 5A, not once. What gets me is the nimrods who start in with the "Were ranked in the Nation" or "Kelly should take over the Razorbacks" nonsense that angers up the blood. Heck, there is one fan that claims the East Salt Lake game was competitive.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. ;)
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 05:21:38 pm
I support PA moving up, but that's not PAs choice.
PA does work harder than most, that's why they win. Feel free to articulate what the private school advantage means in points. I've never denied it's an advantage but don't give it more credit than its due. It doesn't provide four-peats.
That poster that said the salt lake game was competitive, pointed out the fact that PA out scored Salt Lake in the second half against starters. He was also a coach, so consider that.
The advantages can easily be made out to be what they are. Don't down play the fact that your football coach doesn't coach ESL kids, remedial kids, kids on free or reduced lunches, kids who can't afford top notch training or to workout more in the summer because they don't have to actually work to help their family, etc. It ALL factors in. Do some public schools enjoy some of these advantages? Yes. But they don't get all of the advantages. Mix the advantages with a good coach who gets paid an undisclosed amount, and you have the recipe for success. Kelley hasn't left for a reason..and it's not just because he enjoys PA. He knows he has a tremendous advantage in the state and he's holding on to it as long as he can.
The PA and salt lake game was never a game. Salt lake dominated them from the start. I watched most of it and they were just the better team, by far. That's not an insult to PA. East had a great team that season and it showed in all their games.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 05:13:37 pm
OMG this commit is so ridiculous. Why would PA pay players?!? PA doesn't make money off of the football team, unlike a football academy or a university program.
Please think about your accusations before printing comments like this. PA is a college prep school that happens to have a great football coach (and staff) and dedicated players. The end.
This is a great point. So, since you know it all, could you let the rest of us know why a far greater amount of kids who play football received financial aid than any other sport? Or a higher percentage than the total? LRCA and Catholic are much bigger, yet PA gives way more kids on their football team financial aid than those two. Since you know they don't pay kids to come play football, I'm sure you must be able to explain the ratio discrepancy.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 15, 2017, 05:18:33 pm
I like most of your posts because you are direct, sometimes to the point of being blunt. Nothing wrong with that.
What gets lost in this thread are the facts. PA does not have a bunch of players moving in. Most have been at PA since grade school. The few move ins we've had generally come from out of state. So the argument that PA is grabbing talent from other schools just has no factual support.
I've pointed this out many times before so I know this will convince none of the naysayers. But I still want the facts noted.
Completely agree about the players not moving in. Every year, public schools have transfers that contribute to their team. The spot light is on PA though and when a player does transfer in, like Hunter Henry did, or DJ Williams at CAC, then people's heads turn. It actually happens more in public schools if I had to guess and it is constantly happening in basketball.
Quote from: footballfan-tastic on December 15, 2017, 01:03:04 pm
I wonder do you have the top private school football program because of kids on scholarship? If I could give a kid more money than actual tuition, if that is true, then isn't that paying them to play.
I think this was a question. Why would a school give a kid more money than the amount of tuition? That was the claim someone made and this sounds like they are asking if it's true.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 15, 2017, 08:23:35 pm
Completely agree about the players not moving in. Every year, public schools have transfers that contribute to their team. The spot light is on PA though and when a player does transfer in, like Hunter Henry did, or DJ Williams at CAC, then people's heads turn. It actually happens more in public schools if I had to guess and it is constantly happening in basketball.
How many public schools have a kid on scholarship? I remember a stink of two about another private school who got numerous transfer students and were supposed to be on scholarship. It just looks shady.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 05:13:37 pm
OMG this commit is so ridiculous. Why would PA pay players?!? PA doesn't make money off of the football team, unlike a football academy or a university program.
Please think about your accusations before printing comments like this. PA is a college prep school that happens to have a great football coach (and staff) and dedicated players. The end.
Yeah, that is far fetched. I mean why would PA focus on fielding a top notch team? It makes no sense. We all remember the HBO Real Sports segment on PA's Science department. Who can forget the ESPN story about their ACT prep courses. The CNNSI featurette about the History teachers was spellbinding. All of the media exposure came about as a result of their academic prowess. All the Alumni endowments are simply rewards for the top notch college preps courses. Forget football, the number of academic strictly students receiving financial aid is through the roof. Let's not forget, this is the deep south, trigonometry is king! What about that popular motion picture Friday Night literature? Yeah, why would any school, college or high school, pay good money to field a successful football team?
Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 08:39:05 pm
Yeah, that is far fetched. I mean why would PA focus on fielding a top notch team? It makes no sense. We all remember the HBO Real Sports segment on PA's Science department. Who can forget the ESPN story about their ACT prep courses. The CNNSI featurette about the History teachers was spellbinding. All of the media exposure came about as a result of their academic prowess. All the Alumni endowments are simply rewards for the top notch college preps courses. Forget football, the number of academic strictly students receiving financial aid is through the roof. Let's not forget, this is the deep south, trigonometry is king! What about that popular motion picture Friday Night literature? Yeah, why would any school, college or high school, pay good money to field a successful football team?
Are you going to come to a point? What does PA gain from paying players? That's ridiculous. I recall last time you said it was "pride". If there is no financial or economic benefit, why would PA do that?
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 08:52:18 pm
Are you going to come to a point? What does PA gain from paying players? That's ridiculous. I recall last time you said it was "pride". If there is no financial or economic benefit, why would PA do that?
They win championships, they are featured on numerous media outlets, the interest in the school skyrockets, the donations/gifts/endowments increase exponentially, financial gain.
Really? Are you serious? CKK is on ESPN for 15 seconds years ago and you think people mail us money? Jess, I think you should stop and let the adults talk now. You're not helping anyone's cause here.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 15, 2017, 08:20:58 pm
The advantages can easily be made out to be what they are. Don't down play the fact that your football coach doesn't coach ESL kids, remedial kids, kids on free or reduced lunches, kids who can't afford top notch training or to workout more in the summer because they don't have to actually work to help their family, etc. It ALL factors in. Do some public schools enjoy some of these advantages? Yes. But they don't get all of the advantages. Mix the advantages with a good coach who gets paid an undisclosed amount, and you have the recipe for success. Kelley hasn't left for a reason..and it's not just because he enjoys PA. He knows he has a tremendous advantage in the state and he's holding on to it as long as he can.
The PA and salt lake game was never a game. Salt lake dominated them from the start. I watched most of it and they were just the better team, by far. That's not an insult to PA. East had a great team that season and it showed in all their games.
This is a great point. So, since you know it all, could you let the rest of us know why a far greater amount of kids who play football received financial aid than any other sport? Or a higher percentage than the total? LRCA and Catholic are much bigger, yet PA gives way more kids on their football team financial aid than those two. Since you know they don't pay kids to come play football, I'm sure you must be able to explain the ratio discrepancy.
Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I just saw this. So, a couple of things first. Every student receiving aid that plays a sport must have their financial aid approved by AAA. This application process takes place every year and any change in assets or income greater than $10k must be reported. Point being, AAA sees all of this. Additionally, the large percentage can partially, if not completely, be attributed to the size of the school. The number of students that play football relative to the student population is large.
Most importantly, and I've said this before, if you are within range of the school and you have a kid with talent and need aid, why wouldn't you attempt to go to PA?
You are making the assumption that PA selects great athletes and then works magic to get them financial aid. Many PA posters have pointed out numerous times that a majority of these kids have been at PA since 5th grade or earlier.
Lastly, I've asked for the source of info. Where are you getting these numbers? I'd like to see for myself.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 09:57:42 pm
Really? Are you serious? CKK is on ESPN for 15 seconds years ago and you think people mail us money? Jess, I think you should stop and let the adults talk now. You're not helping anyone's cause here.
Mail you money? Wow, that's powerful naive. Do you realize you are denying the gifts and other endowments that PA has admitted for years. The new weight room? Try and read this real slow, have someone help you out, a gift/endowment/donation are all names for someone giving you money. I've heard the Jr. High is in disrepair, I don't see any wealthy benefactors writing big checks to fix that. I realize this whole football thing is pretty new to you, that "they lift weights in the summer" comment proved that, but please don't try and deny football, either directly or indirectly makes money. You may be the lone PA fan that denies that.
Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 10:50:31 pm
Mail you money? Wow, that's powerful naive. Do you realize you are denying the gifts and other endowments that PA has admitted for years. The new weight room? Try and read this real slow, have someone help you out, a gift/endowment/donation are all names for someone giving you money. I've heard the Jr. High is in disrepair, I don't see any wealthy benefactors writing big checks to fix that. I realize this whole football thing is pretty new to you, that "they lift weights in the summer" comment proved that, but please don't try and deny football, either directly or indirectly makes money. You may be the lone PA fan that denies that.
FOOTBALL MAKES PA MONEY....WHAT? Are you high? We have a spectacular weight room because parents of football players donated the money. Period. That's doesn't even remotely suggest that the program benefits the rest of the school financially. Seriously, you are special kind of stupid.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 10:12:22 pm
Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I just saw this. So, a couple of things first. Every student receiving aid that plays a sport must have their financial aid approved by AAA. This application process takes place every year and any change in assets or income greater than $10k must be reported. Point being, AAA sees all of this. Additionally, the large percentage can partially, if not completely, be attributed to the size of the school. The number of students that play football relative to the student population is large.
Most importantly, and I've said this before, if you are within range of the school and you have a kid with talent and need aid, why wouldn't you attempt to go to PA?
You are making the assumption that PA selects great athletes and then works magic to get them financial aid. Many PA posters have pointed out numerous times that a majority of these kids have been at PA since 5th grade or earlier.
Lastly, I've asked for the source of info. Where are you getting these numbers? I'd like to see for myself.
AAA can see how many get financial aid, but there's no limit or anything so it's not like there is a screening process by AAA. And I understand that you don't want there to be a correlation between financial aid and success, but it's hard to think there isn't. Baptist prep gives a higher percentage of their basketball team financial aid. Guess what sport they're good at? There is a 2A private school in South arkansas that gives a higher percentage of their track athletes financial aid. They are dominant at track. When you look at these numbers, it's just a little crazy.
I did a FOI request last spring of the documents required to be submitted to AAA. That's where I got all these numbers from. Sorry I didn't see the question sooner.
Oh and if I was in the little rock area, my kid would absolutely go to PA or LRCA or another private. But that doesn't change my stance on the advantages and a new method of reclassification. Classifying based solely on numbers Is just not a good method. And really, it's just because people are lazy and want an easy way to classify.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 16, 2017, 06:27:48 am
Oh and if I was in the little rock area, my kid would absolutely go to PA or LRCA or another private. But that doesn't change my stance on the advantages and a new method of reclassification. Classifying based solely on numbers Is just not a good method. And really, it's just because people are lazy and want an easy way to classify.
I don't disagree with that last part about lazy. Would you please share the information you received? I'd like to see it.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 16, 2017, 07:10:53 am
I don't disagree with that last part about lazy. Would you please share the information you received? I'd like to see it.
I shared a lot of the numbers somewhere in this thread but haven't uploaded any documents. Send me a pm and I may be able to scan them in and share them privately after the holidays.
MDXPHD, I read something this morning and was wondering if you had seen it. It's the Drexil/Sporting News study on D1 football, are you familiar? The study showed that 86% of D1 football players on scholarship come from lower middle class to below the poverty level background. The study concluded that at it's core football is still very much a working class game. The Basketball numbers were even higher. Although they garner the lion's share of headlines, school like Mater Dei, De La Salle and IMG are very much the exception. One Coach who ask not to be named had a quote that was hysterical, he said "If you want your child to get an elite education, send him to a private school. If you want him to get noticed playing football, save your money and go the public school route. We get kids from expensive Preparatory schools who had specialized coaching and customized workout programs. Come late July when they line up across from the kid who's school had bullet holes on the building and they ain't worth a pile of white dog crap".
I've told myself to stay out of this thread, and to not make this post. But I'm not very smart sometimes. Here is my belief as to why a higher percentage of students on financial aid play football at PA. I will note that I don't know that any of this is 100% accurate, I don't know who does or doesn't get aid, and I'm not attempting to add any tone of race to the conversation. But here goes:
- At its beginning and for several decades, PA students were overwhelmingly white. Well into the 90%. That number begin to go down as a significant percentage of asian children enrolled, many of whom are the kids of people that came to America to work at UAMS. PA made a decision that it would benefit current students, and the community, if there was a larger percentage of african-american students at the school to increase diversity.
I think many people on here believe PA did this by offering scholarships to good football players who happen to be black. I can assure you that this isn't the case. Rather, PA made the decision to offer financial aid in the lower school and let the kids grow up in the school. As it has apparently turned out, a higher percentage of those kids receiving aid end up playing football. Draw your own conclusions as to why. PA does not offer scholarships to african-americans in order to build a football powerhouse. It would be a disservice to all constituencies for PA to be an all-white school in Little Rock, and PA is putting its money to that end. I will also note that the african-american population at PA is evenly split between boys and girls.
1 other thing to note: I am not saying that because someone is a student at PA and is black they are on financial aid. That is not accurate, and not fair to any of the kids or families. I may regret posting this, but I think it is an important point that has not been addressed in this 29 page thread.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 16, 2017, 10:53:07 am
I've told myself to stay out of this thread, and to not make this post. But I'm not very smart sometimes. Here is my belief as to why a higher percentage of students on financial aid play football at PA. I will note that I don't know that any of this is 100% accurate, I don't know who does or doesn't get aid, and I'm not attempting to add any tone of race to the conversation. But here goes:
- At its beginning and for several decades, PA students were overwhelmingly white. Well into the 90%. That number begin to go down as a significant percentage of asian children enrolled, many of whom are the kids of people that came to America to work at UAMS. PA made a decision that it would benefit current students, and the community, if there was a larger percentage of african-american students at the school to increase diversity.
I think many people on here believe PA did this by offering scholarships to good football players who happen to be black. I can assure you that this isn't the case. Rather, PA made the decision to offer financial aid in the lower school and let the kids grow up in the school. As it has apparently turned out, a higher percentage of those kids receiving aid end up playing football. Draw your own conclusions as to why. PA does not offer scholarships to african-americans in order to build a football powerhouse. It would be a disservice to all constituencies for PA to be an all-white school in Little Rock, and PA is putting its money to that end. I will also note that the african-american population at PA is evenly split between boys and girls.
1 other thing to note: I am not saying that because someone is a student at PA and is black they are on financial aid. That is not accurate, and not fair to any of the kids or families. I may regret posting this, but I think it is an important point that has not been addressed in this 29 page thread.
That's a valid point, one that does factor into people's perceptions. For what it's worth there was nothing in your post that could be misconstrued as inappropriate, bigoted, judgemental or unfair. Relax, you said nothing that would offend anyone. Having been around here for a little over a year in no way shape or form would I say your mean or condescending, you make valid points that do promote thought and discussion. The only time I have any negative opinion of anything you say is when you disagree with something I say, in which case I think you're stupid. Don't be offended, that same principal applies to my wife.
Quote from: JessieP on December 16, 2017, 01:50:36 pm
That's a valid point, one that does factor into people's perceptions. For what it's worth there was nothing in your post that could be misconstrued as inappropriate, bigoted, judgemental or unfair. Relax, you said nothing that would offend anyone. Having been around here for a little over a year in no way shape or form would I say your mean or condescending, you make valid points that do promote thought and discussion. The only time I have any negative opinion of anything you say is when you disagree with something I say, in which case I think you're stupid. Don't be offended, that same principal applies to my wife.
That is funny. It is surprising how much smarter I feel people get when the agree with me. :)
Send your kid to a public school to get noticed in football. Makes sense as public schools greatly outnumber private schools so certainly more kids that play in college come from public schools. Get noticed of course, because many state have separate leagues for private schools and across the board many of those private schools are not very good, particularly in small states such as Arkansas. But, the discussion is about PA which is very good. High profile privates have more kids go on to play at the college level. Why? Well I imagine they invest more heavily in their football program, take that however you like. It remains a fact that some private schools do recruit players, they do have kids on scholarships and some of them do very well. Those against public and private playing in the same conferences will not change their minds and those who attend or have children attending private schools in Arkansas are not going to change their minds either.
Alright guys, I'm going to do you a favor and bring this out of hibernation. Lanny generally gives these threads a short leash but I looked at the way it was going in the last page or so and I find the discussion inbounds.
Police yourself.
I think people tend to overlook or ignore the attraction of athleticly minded parents to send their kids to schools that have really good athletic programs. Match that to parents that either have the financial means to do so or the availability of scholarships that enable attendance and you have a plus that private schools have built in. Of course all privates don't have that plus because some simply don't put the emphasis on athletics. I'm not saying recruiting but I'm not saying not recruiting either. I think its inherent to the beast. Private schools recruit students, its how they get kids even if just to come and be a great student. Parents who have means or who are very in tune to what is going on in their kids life and the possibilities out there are working to get kids in those good schools. Also the size of the available school district for a private school helps. I would be curious to look at the backgrounds of the parents of PA football players and see where their background may influence where their children go to school. I think the fact that advantages do exist is evident in the states that have chosen to use enrollment multipliers, success multipliers and to separate private and public leagues.
Quote from: B.G. on November 24, 2018, 02:49:44 pm
Alright guys, I'm going to do you a favor and bring this out of hibernation. Lanny generally gives these threads a short leash but I looked at the way it was going in the last page or so and I find the discussion in bound.
Police yourself.
Thanks B.G. I think this thread is really good because there is minimum name calling and some good logical discussion.
Quote from: game on on November 24, 2018, 04:37:21 pm
I think people tend to overlook or ignore the attraction of athleticly minded parents to send their kids to schools that have really good athletic programs. Match that to parents that either have the financial means to do so or the availability of scholarships that enable attendance and you have a plus that private schools have built in. Of course all privates don't have that plus because some simply don't put the emphasis on athletics. I'm not saying recruiting but I'm not saying not recruiting either. I think its inherent to the beast. Private schools recruit students, its how they get kids even if just to come and be a great student. Parents who have means or who are very in tune to what is going on in their kids life and the possibilities out there are working to get kids in those good schools. Also the size of the available school district for a private school helps. I would be curious to look at the backgrounds of the parents of PA football players and see where their background may influence where their children go to school. I think the fact that advantages do exist is evident in the states that have chosen to use enrollment multipliers, success multipliers and to separate private and public leagues.
Very well said. Little Rock has the highest population in the state and most of the public schools in LR have traditions of losing in football consistently. Pulaski Academy doesn't have to go find talent. The talent finds them. Imagine if PA was a public school with the same traditions they have now. Could you imagine how many parents would move into that district and the amount of buildings PA would have to build to accommodate all these new students. People flock to winning and there is very little of that going on in LR for football. None of this is confusing but a majority of posters can't comprehend it.
Quote from: Central AR on November 24, 2018, 04:52:20 pm
Very well said. Little Rock has the highest population in the state and most of the public schools in LR have traditions of losing in football consistently. Pulaski Academy doesn't have to go find talent. The talent finds them. Imagine if PA was a public school with the same traditions they have now. Could you imagine how many parents would move into that district and the amount of buildings PA would have to build to accommodate all these new students. People flock to winning and there is very little of that going on in LR for football. None of this is confusing but a majority of posters can't comprehend it.
Greenwood is a good example of a public school that has established a winning tradition. They have no problem attracting top players. I've heard that some families move into the district so their kids can play at GW - at least that's what some Ft. Smith posters say.
Quote from: Central AR on November 24, 2018, 04:52:20 pm
Very well said. Little Rock has the highest population in the state and most of the public schools in LR have traditions of losing in football consistently. Pulaski Academy doesn't have to go find talent. The talent finds them. Imagine if PA was a public school with the same traditions they have now. Could you imagine how many parents would move into that district and the amount of buildings PA would have to build to accommodate all these new students. People flock to winning and there is very little of that going on in LR for football. None of this is confusing but a majority of posters can't comprehend it.
PA would not be the same program if it was a public school. That's what this thread is about - the advantages privates have vs public schools and if there are any remedies. Recruiting is not the topic. Attraction is not the topic. It's the plethora of other things mentioned throughout the thread
Quote from: PA Dad on November 24, 2018, 04:58:11 pm
Greenwood is a good example of a public school that has established a winning tradition. They have no problem attracting top players. I've heard that some families move into the district so their kids can play at GW - at least that's what some Ft. Smith posters say.
Kinda like the QB who just played yesterday vs Mizzou?
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 24, 2018, 05:00:05 pm
PA would not be the same program if it was a public school. That's what this thread is about - the advantages privates have vs public schools and if there are any remedies. Recruiting is not the topic. Attraction is not the topic. It's the plethora of other things mentioned throughout the thread
There is many reasons behind it. I simply stated one, which is true. People flock to winning and I have spoken to many parents who have sent their kid to PA because of their winning traditions and their coaching staff. These same folks would have moved into the PA school district if it was a public school. Many folks who live in near Nashville or Warren will move into the school district so their kid can play for that program. We see it happen all over in public schools with outstanding football programs.
Also, it is much more than than just being a private school. You know that. Or a school like Baptist Prep would be thriving. They are private and they aren't.
It is true that private schools have advantages. Some really emphasize those and some just do not. If there were not advantages then we would not see the modifications being made to try to equalize the playing field. Problem for private schools in Arkansas is this is a small state with not too many football playing private schools and even fewer really good ones. If the private schools were forced into their own league it would ruin private school football in Arkansas. So the private schools will fight it tooth and nail.
Quote from: Central AR on November 24, 2018, 05:04:22 pm
There is many reasons behind it. I simply stated one, which is true. People flock to winning and I have spoken to many parents who have sent their kid to PA because of their winning traditions and their coaching staff. These same folks would have moved into the PA school district if it was a public school. Many folks who live in near Nashville or Warren will move into the school district so their kid can play for that program. We see it happen all over in public schools with outstanding football programs.
Also, it is much more than than just being a private school. You know that. Or a school like Baptist Prep would be thriving. They are private and they aren't.
In which sport? Because they have more kids on their basketball team receive financial aid than other sports. And they seem to be okay at basketball.
It is more than being a private school. I agree. Private schools just take advantage of the advantages they have, you could say.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 24, 2018, 05:34:59 pm
In which sport? Because they have more kids on their basketball team receive financial aid than other sports. And they seem to be okay at basketball.
It is more than being a private school. I agree. Private schools just take advantage of the advantages they have, you could say.
How do you know Baptist Prep has more of their basketball players receiving financial aid? I think their success has little to nothing to do with financial aid. It has to do with Issac McBride, Coach Ross, and the Vanover brothers. They happened to have a good supporting cast around those Division-1 players, but one to two players with that kind of talent can make up 12-15 wins in a season. That is why they were and are currently successful. Not because of financial aid, which was the first thing you brought up.
Quote from: Central AR on November 24, 2018, 05:45:07 pm
How do you know Baptist Prep has more of their basketball players receiving financial aid? I think their success has little to nothing to do with financial aid. It has to do with Issac McBride, Coach Ross, and the Vanover brothers. They happened to have a good supporting cast around those Division-1 players, but one to two players with that kind of talent can make up 12-15 wins in a season. That is why they were and are currently successful. Not because of financial aid, which was the first thing you brought up.
Because all private schools have to report that to AAA and a fOi request told me. This thread has loads of info in it if you get some free time to read through.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 24, 2018, 06:07:05 pm
Because all private schools have to report that to AAA and a fOi request told me. This thread has loads of info in it if you get some free time to read through.
29 pages... here we go
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 24, 2018, 06:07:05 pm
Because all private schools have to report that to AAA and a fOi request told me. This thread has loads of info in it if you get some free time to read through.
I'm still waiting for you to post up this smoking gun that shows how the privates recriut. So far we only have your word. Post up these FOI documents so the rest of us can analyze them.
Quote from: game on on November 24, 2018, 05:34:07 pm
It is true that private schools have advantages. Some really emphasize those and some just do not. If there were not advantages then we would not see the modifications being made to try to equalize the playing field. Problem for private schools in Arkansas is this is a small state with not too many football playing private schools and even fewer really good ones. If the private schools were forced into their own league it would ruin private school football in Arkansas. So the private schools will fight it tooth and nail.
That's a very interesting point. I had forgot about the potential private school league in Arkansas. Without calling out any names or specific schools, does anyone know what influenced the stoppage of it coming together or was it just talk? I remember that many had mixed feelings about it like what you're mentioning. I would be very curious to see how things would work out.
Quote from: sportsguy80 on November 24, 2018, 06:23:25 pm
That's a very interesting point. I had forgot about the potential private school league in Arkansas. Without calling out any names or specific schools, does anyone know what influenced the stoppage of it coming together or was it just talk? I remember that many had mixed feelings about it like what you're mentioning. I would be very curious to see how things would work out.
Just not enough private schools I would say. Also, we have some like Sacred Heart and others who do not field football teams.
Quote from: RazorDad on November 24, 2018, 06:17:48 pm
I'm still waiting for you to post up this smoking gun that shows how the privates recriut. So far we only have your word. Post up these FOI documents so the rest of us can analyze them.
The foi documents have nothing to do with recruiting. Never said that. Good try though. I can send them at some point. Send me a PM with your email. These are a little dated now. Should I request more recent?
Quote from: RazorDad on November 24, 2018, 06:17:48 pm
I'm still waiting for you to post up this smoking gun that shows how the privates recriut. So far we only have your word. Post up these FOI documents so the rest of us can analyze them.
RazorDad if you read the whole thread (and I know that's asking a lot) it's really not about recruiting. It's about the advantages private schools have and what, if anything, needs to be done about it. MDX quotes the numbers in the thread and they surprised me. But, like most things, they are subject to different interpretations.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 24, 2018, 06:34:38 pm
The foi documents have nothing to do with recruiting. Never said that. Good try though. I can send them at some point. Send me a PM with your email. These are a little dated now. Should I request more recent?
How outdated are we talking?
Quote from: PA Dad on November 24, 2018, 06:43:25 pm
RazorDad if you read the whole thread (and I know that's asking a lot) it's really not about recruiting. It's about the advantages private schools have and what, if anything, needs to be done about it. MDX quotes the numbers in the thread and they surprised me. But, like most things, they are subject to different interpretations.
I read the whole thread in realtime as it evolved. Never saw the source data, hence my doubts.
Quote from: RazorDad on November 24, 2018, 06:47:15 pm
I read the whole thread in realtime as it evolved. Never saw the source data, hence my doubts.
Understood. I know MDX is a little shady but I doubt he would post made up numbers. (Just kidding MDX!)
I seem to remember a very hard stance against a private school league a few years ago by the private schools. Don't blame them, they would be hurt by a private school league as their competition drop would likely mean good players would want to go to the better public schools.
Quote from: game on on November 24, 2018, 06:57:07 pm
I seem to remember a very hard stance against a private school league a few years ago by the private schools. Don't blame them, they would be hurt by a private school league as their competition drop would likely mean good players would want to go to the better public schools.
Exactly. Heck, even PA in the 5A probably wishes their competition was tougher. There is a reason their non-conference games are usually out of state minus Har-Ber this year.
Let's say no recruiting is involved.
Private schools have parents who care. They have better academics as a whole. The teachers are as a whole going to be good teachers who are definitely not in it for the money and will do whatever to get their kids to succeed. I think this is huge. 1. Successful people are generally successful at multiple things. They also are going to work harder. Do good in classroom do good on field. I know there are athletic exceptions but when all 11 defenders are 3.0+ students they are probably going to process information quicke and run the scheme better. 2. The smarter a kid is, the better football player they can be. Especially when paired with a good scheming coach.
Other advantages of private school would go program to program. Public schools have to get funding approved and generally one sport will not get substantially more funds. In a private school they can give more to certain programs that would benefit that program substantially more than a public school could. Examples would be PA/Shiloh in football or Baptist Prep in basketball. I don't know how much statistics would back that up but it's at least a little true. I know Most private schools have other successful teams but most schools it's either football or basketball.
I will say girls private school sports is another discussion about benefits.
I don't think they should have to have their own league though. I think there should be no attendance multiplier but a success multiplier which I believe has been brought up on here before. I believe if you win 2/3 championships or make it to the finals three years or so on, you would move up a class in that sport. Logistically that would cause issues because some could be 5A up in some sports and 3a down in others. I think it's still the most fair way to do it.
If I said anything wrong crucify me for it. Not trying to point fingers at any schools or people. I would like to point at PA and call fouls because 5 in a row or maybe 4 (lol) is quite annoying and I don't think it's good for the game of HS football. But because PA Dad is such an ambassador for that school I can't even do that.
My biggest issue is this. Coming from a small home town where everyone knows most everyone. You grow up hearing about great teams from the past. The traditions, the generations of great players. Look at the rural basketball schools. You see those players having kids who carry on the legacy or the name. You watch those teams coming up just waiting for them to have their turn. You're a top team in your classification. Worked hard and walked the line. You meet a private school with a team that's been built. Instead of this is what we have. You lose to team that is often times different each year. I would like to see a change but I'm not sure what's best.
Folks, you can beat this topic until it's dead in the ground. The fact of the matter is, private schools will stay where they want to stay for one reason, and one reason only, Money, it is political, these schools have strategically placed individuals among organizations that make up the rules, so everyone can talk til they are blue in the face, it won't change nothing. PA will win this year, and more than likely next year. Put your big boy pants on and suck it up, it is the way of the world, Money can make anything happen, and that is a cold hard fact Jack.
Quote from: woopork on November 24, 2018, 07:00:13 pm
Let's say no recruiting is involved.
Private schools have parents who care. They have better academics as a whole. The teachers are as a whole going to be good teachers who are definitely not in it for the money and will do whatever to get their kids to succeed. I think this is huge. 1. Successful people are generally successful at multiple things. They also are going to work harder. Do good in classroom do good on field. I know there are athletic exceptions but when all 11 defenders are 3.0+ students they are probably going to process information quicke and run the scheme better. 2. The smarter a kid is, the better football player they can be. Especially when paired with a good scheming coach.
Other advantages of private school would go program to program. Public schools have to get funding approved and generally one sport will not get substantially more funds. In a private school they can give more to certain programs that would benefit that program substantially more than a public school could. Examples would be PA/Shiloh in football or Baptist Prep in basketball. I don't know how much statistics would back that up but it's at least a little true. I know Most private schools have other successful teams but most schools it's either football or basketball.
I will say girls private school sports is another discussion about benefits.
I don't think they should have to have their own league though. I think there should be no attendance multiplier but a success multiplier which I believe has been brought up on here before. I believe if you win 2/3 championships or make it to the finals three years or so on, you would move up a class in that sport. Logistically that would cause issues because some could be 5A up in some sports and 3a down in others. I think it's still the most fair way to do it.
If I said anything wrong crucify me for it. Not trying to point fingers at any schools or people. I would like to point at PA and call fouls because 5 in a row or maybe 4 (lol) is quite annoying and I don't think it's good for the game of HS football. But because PA Dad is such an ambassador for that school I can't even do that.
You definitely made some good points.
It is possible to get the private schools out of the public school leagues, it has been done in other states but it takes lots of money, influence and time. As of yet the push to do this is not strong enough to make it happen in Arkansas. The last time the topic was strongly discussed it resulted in some rules changes in private school eligibility. It was a concession to help quiet the discussion down. It may well rise up again if certain schools dominate too long.
Private schools and magnet schools only league??
Quote from: JacketFan on November 24, 2018, 07:13:37 pm
Folks, you can beat this topic until it's dead in the ground. The fact of the matter is, private schools will stay where they want to stay for one reason, and one reason only, Money, it is political, these schools have strategically placed individuals among organizations that make up the rules, so everyone can talk til they are blue in the face, it won't change nothing. PA will win this year, and more than likely next year. Put your big boy pants on and suck it up, it is the way of the world, Money can make anything happen, and that is a cold hard fact Jack.
Jacketfan you are a good poster and I enjoy your posts. I even agree with you that money talks.
But this thread is really good because we've kept it to the facts. Your assertion that private schools have folks in high places to prevent change is just wrong, at least to my understanding. The rules are not made by folks in high places. They are made by the schools and every school gets a vote. So if public schools wanted to ban privates from competing with them they could do so and folks in high places could do nothing about it.
Quote from: the voice on November 24, 2018, 07:33:01 pm
Private schools and magnet schools only league??
Is that really what you want? I suspect that Morrilton's win over PA on the way to the championship in 2013 is a great source of pride for Morrilton's fans. Beating the best is what we all strive for. Kicking privates out is an admission that you can't compete. I think you can.
Since the private league was brought up again, I'll just repost my contribution from back on December 15 of last year:
Yet another lame argument for separating out the privates from the publics in Arkansas. Let's look at the private high school enrollment numbers from the AAA. I will put include Catholic/MSM for a realistic analysis:
Catholic High/MSM 970
Little Rock Christian Academy 405
Pulaski Academy 311
Subiaco Academy 251
Shiloh Christian 231
Central Arkansas Christian 192
Baptist Prep 179
Harding Academy 177
Episcopal Collegiate 152
Conway Christian 92
St. Joseph 93
Trinity Christian 60
Abundant Life 59
Crowley's Ridge Academy 57
Ridgefield Christian 53
Sacred Heart 53
There are 17 private high schools in Arkansas with an enrollment of 3,335. The total enrollment of all high schools in Arkansas is 112,337, so the privates represent 2.9 % of the HS student population.
Since you mentioned Mater Dei, let's look at California.
There are 430 private high schools in California with an enrollment of 133,000 students. The total enrollment of all high schools in California is 2,008,650, so the privates represent 6.6 % of the HS student population. Trinity League is just one of many private school leagues in California and consists of just seven of the private high schools in the Los Angeles area.:
Mater Dei 2100
Santa Margarita Catholic 1700
Lutheran 1322
Jserra Catholic 1200
Servite (boys) 920
St. John Bosco (boys) 820
Rosary Academy (girls) 370
Total Trinity League Enrollmen 8432
So as you can see, California (and the other states mentioned) have large enough of a private student populations to separate and have their own league, Arkansas obviously does not. heck, the entire private high school population of Arkansas is outnumbered by just Mater Dei and Santa Margarita.
So, we are back to the true heart of the matter - Is winning so important that you want to eliminate the competition by segregating them out? Personally, I want to prove myself against the best. Removing your competition by administrative means makes any championship you receive just a participation trophy.
The whole prove yourself against the best sounds good on paper but there is a point where it simply becomes unfair. If the so called "best" has too much advantage then it doesn't make sense to continue to let them play with public schools. I do agree that Arkansas has so few private schools that it would ruin competitive athletics for private schools. When public schools can only use the kids in their little towns they are at a disadvantage. Will a public school always suffer the disadvantage, No, just like a private school will not always benefit from the advantages when looking at athletic performance.
Quote from: game on on November 24, 2018, 08:05:18 pm
The whole prove yourself against the best sounds good on paper but there is a point where it simply becomes unfair. If the so called "best" has too much advantage then it doesn't make sense to continue to let them play with public schools. I do agree that Arkansas has so few private schools that it would ruin competitive athletics for private schools. When public schools can only use the kids in their little towns they are at a disadvantage. Will a public school always suffer the disadvantage, No, just like a private school will not always benefit from the advantages when looking at athletic performance.
Would you use the same logic against dominant public schools? Barton was unbeatable for several years. GW dominates 6A. Should they be put in another league because they were/are too good and other schools can't compete with them?
If a public school is operating within the rules, and using players that reside within the school zone boundaries then it is what it is. That is one of my misgivings with public playing with private, the private can get kids from all over Little Rock for instance. If a public school is violating the rules then they should suffer the consequences. I know it is easier said than done. I also know that in the mist of Barton's numerous championships and undefeated seasons there was a lot of questionable players wearing the Barton Bear uni.
Of course the other answer is another method of classifying schools. A success multiplier would be a possible answer.
The fallout from the private/public debate is ineligible player forfeits are on the rise. You have developing situations with household issues that force kids to change residences. There are always a few that cheat the system, but essentially we have so many paragraphs added to avoid cheating that we are now penalizes otherwise innocent players/teams who try to follow rules but get caught in the switches.
I think the battlelines for private/public created that and now you more issues public/public.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 24, 2018, 07:50:44 pm
Is that really what you want? I suspect that Morrilton's win over PA on the way to the championship in 2013 is a great source of pride for Morrilton's fans. Beating the best is what we all strive for. Kicking privates out is an admission that you can't compete. I think you can.
IMO it maybe Morrilton one time , Wynne another etc , but the consistent is PA , can a public school compete? Yes but can they consistently beat a private school like PA , the answer is no. I can appreciate beating the best most definitely but is PA truly beating the best teams in Arkansas , meaning how many other schools in 5a could beat the larger schools like PA has ? Few and far between. Yet for pa it's almost automatic. I think maybe you look at percentage of students playing a sport for that classification maybe? IDk if that'd work either. LRCA had way more players on the field than us last night. Yes we had 9th grade there also. I don't have the answer. Can a small town compete? Occasionally, but not one has been as dominant as Pa.
I think the bottom line is the issue is advantages? Is it even? The answer is no. The private school folk are only interested in what is good for their school. I can understand that.
Quote from: the voice on November 24, 2018, 09:00:47 pm
IMO it maybe Morrilton one time , Wynne another etc , but the consistent is PA , can a public school compete? Yes but can they consistently beat a private school like PA , the answer is no. I can appreciate beating the best most definitely but is PA truly beating the best teams in Arkansas , meaning how many other schools in 5a could beat the larger schools like PA has ? Few and far between. Yet for pa it's almost automatic. I think maybe you look at percentage of students playing a sport for that classification maybe? IDk if that'd work either. LRCA had way more players on the field than us last night. Yes we had 9th grade there also. I don't have the answer. Can a small town compete? Occasionally, but not one has been as dominant as Pa.
Morrilton has 54 on roster. LRCA has 62. Not sure how many 9th graders Morrilton had on hand for the playoffs, but LRCA has 27 this year. So, not much of a difference there.
What I'm saying is this , they're in 5a because of a multiplier , not dogging on them. Just saying what class does the actual numbers put them in ?? How many teams in that class have 62 on the team in playoffs? In my opinion it matters. But maybe I'm alone. I just can't imagine a 3a or 4a school having that many players. 8 players may not seem like much but it's close to eleven which is another squad to practice against.
Quote from: game on on November 24, 2018, 04:37:21 pm
I think people tend to overlook or ignore the attraction of athleticly minded parents to send their kids to schools that have really good athletic programs. .... I think the fact that advantages do exist is evident in the states that have chosen to use enrollment multipliers, success multipliers and to separate private and public leagues.
Too all,
I know reading 29 pages of this discussion is asking an awful lot, but I can tell you the points raised in the first post after this thread was revived today have been raised and discussed earlier. There has been a LOT of thoughtful discussion in this long thread. I can't say it better than this:
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 24, 2018, 06:07:05 pm
Because all private schools have to report that to AAA and a fOi request told me. This thread has loads of info in it if you get some free time to read through.
Please do everything to stay within the spirit of this thread!Thanks,
7of400
Let's be clear on one point made...that being that private school teams are "built". As for PA, we must have some amazing eyes for talent because they start building in the first grade. My daughter is a junior. Been watching those kids play since flag football. Nothing about this team, or any Pa team I have ever seen, was "built".
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 24, 2018, 09:53:21 pm
Let's be clear on one point made...that being that private school teams are "built". As for PA, we must have some amazing eyes for talent because they start building in the first grade. My daughter is a junior. Been watching those kids play since flag football. Nothing about this team, or any Pa team I have ever seen, was "built".
I'd come right back at you and say that reemphasize "built". Catch them early, coach the crap of them them, give them opportunities not offered elsewhere and have literally no risk to lose them.
Now...I'm not criticizing that but it's part of the built in advantage.
I will also point out that these are daddy threads.
Let's do a poll with the kids who play. I promise you every kid on that Harrison sideline I heard last night, and every kid I have ever heard on every sideline has had a burning desire to beat PA. Never heard a kid say "kick em out because we can't beat em."
These games are about the kids, not mommies and daddies. Like Jacket said, put your big boy pants on and beat em. Beat them and their advantages.
And don't just brush off the disadvantages. Tiny school populations, half of whom are girls, and with a whole lot of boys who will kick some rear in calculus math races, but couldn't catch or throw a football.
Quote from: B.G. on November 24, 2018, 09:56:19 pm
I'd come right back at you and say that reemphasize "built". Catch them early, coach the crap of them them, give them opportunities not offered elsewhere and have literally no risk to lose them.
Now...I'm not criticizing that but it's part of the built in advantage.
That's a different definition of "built". If that is the kind of building we are talking about, then they are built. Just like Greenwood. And Rison. And Cabot. And charleston. And Junction City. And Barton back in the day. These opportunities are not limited to private schools.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 24, 2018, 10:01:02 pm
I will also point out that these are daddy threads.
Let's do a poll with the kids who play. I promise you every kid on that Harrison sideline I heard last night, and every kid I have ever heard on every sideline has had a burning desire to beat PA. Never heard a kid say "kick em out because we can't beat em."
These games are about the kids, not mommies and daddies. Like Jacket said, put your big boy pants on and beat em. Beat them and their advantages.
And don't just brush off the disadvantages. Tiny school populations, half of whom are girls, and with a whole lot of boys who will kick some rear in calculus math races, but couldn't catch or throw a football.
Finally! It's you!! that wants to say you are most "hated" and you're proud of that(if it's true). Being a target is not a bad thing when it's because of your success.
My final point before I bow out is that no one breathed any of this talk about PA until keven Kelly showed up.
He's a coaching genius, in my opinion. And his record shows it.
Quote from: B.G. on November 24, 2018, 10:05:33 pm
Finally! It's you!! that wants to say you are most "hated" and you're proud of that(if it's true). Being a target is not a bad thing when it's because of your success.
I am not sure I understand this response?
I don't love being hated. But the hate, I get it. Trust me. More than you can know I get it. I lived to hate PA, until I had kids and ended up sending them there. It's a long story and an interesting journey. Will tell you about it someday if we meet.
Quote from: the voice on November 24, 2018, 09:00:47 pm
IMO it maybe Morrilton one time , Wynne another etc , but the consistent is PA , can a public school compete? Yes but can they consistently beat a private school like PA , the answer is no. I can appreciate beating the best most definitely but is PA truly beating the best teams in Arkansas , meaning how many other schools in 5a could beat the larger schools like PA has ? Few and far between. Yet for pa it's almost automatic. I think maybe you look at percentage of students playing a sport for that classification maybe? IDk if that'd work either. LRCA had way more players on the field than us last night. Yes we had 9th grade there also. I don't have the answer. Can a small town compete? Occasionally, but not one has been as dominant as Pa.
I have consistently admitted that private schools have an advantage. I'm open to suggestions as to how to level the playing field. PA now plays up. You are not satisfied with that and neither am I.
I would be fine with determining classifications based on the number of players on the roster. But I still like success advancement the best.
I was a private school "hater" untill i started following FF. Guys like Dad and Cake kind of gave a face to the beast and the monster did not seem so ugly anymore. I openly admit (with a mouth full of sour grapes) the current 5A finals have rekindled that flame a little. My question is why do private schools not want their own private league? The choice was made and the money spent to take these kids away from Arkansas public schools for what ever reason (and there are plenty of valid reasons) why does that not apply on Friday nights?
Quote from: PA Dad on November 24, 2018, 10:43:33 pm
I have consistently admitted that private schools have an advantage. I'm open to suggestions as to how to level the playing field. PA now plays up. You are not satisfied with that and neither am I.
I would be fine with determining classifications based on the number of players on the roster. But I still like success advancement the best.
Yes sir I think we agree. I don't have an answer. I'm certainly not trying to argue just giving a view point from a rural community.
Check the DemGaz today to see the LRSD performance grades. Academics drive the private schools more so than any athletic program.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on November 25, 2018, 08:30:07 am
Check the DemGaz today to see the LRSD performance grades. Academics drive the private schools more so than any athletic program.
This +1000
And the root of academic performance is high standards/expectations by both parents and educators. Not lowest common denominator teaching.
Quote from: RazorDad on November 25, 2018, 09:32:29 am
This +1000
And the root of academic performance is high standards/expectations by both parents and educators. Not lowest common denominator teaching.
Yes, let us never forget that not only are private school students better athletes they are smarter than those dumb public school kids. They were just blessed with better parents. It was nothing to do with this conversation but why not? they're better looking too. That's why those dumb, poor and ugly plebs are not at WMS. Maybe the two schools will let some kids sell programs in the parking lot? Make a few bucks so they can buy Mama a $1 DVD at Wal Mart for Christmas.
Jessie, I think his comment was poorly worded, but there is truth to the comment about problems with the LR public school situation and the teacher's union and a plethora of other issues. I am a product of public schools and was a PA hater for years. Then I had kids and had to decide where to send them. I chose PA for academic reasons. And for the reasons related to the aforementioned public school issues. It is a big problem here, much of which was caused by lawyers.
In any event, I don't think anyone is knocking public school kids. I am one and I love them all.
Peace brother and looking forward to meeting you Friday.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 25, 2018, 10:19:31 am
Jessie, I think his comment was poorly worded, but there is truth to the comment about problems with the LR public school situation and the teacher's union and a plethora of other issues. I am a product of public schools and was a PA hater for years. Then I had kids and had to decide where to send them. I chose PA for academic reasons. And for the reasons related to the aforementioned public school issues. It is a big problem here, much of which was caused by lawyers.
In any event, I don't think anyone is knocking public school kids. I am one and I love them all.
Peace brother and looking forward to meeting you Friday.
I agree with Maynard's post. Academic achievement should be celebrated. The post I responded to was nothing more than condescending to people the poster FALSELY feels are beneath him. It's typical LRC rhetoric. Do you know what turned the tide for me in regards to PA? Two things, I am a football purist, I love everything about the game and PA simply plays it very well. The other was the PA fans, you never feel they think they are better. I have read numerous post where they respect public schools both on and off the field. I even got a PM from a parent saying that many students come from households that live paycheck to paycheck, they go into debt to send the kids there. They told me that PA has the same social problem as any public school, there are cliques and snobs there as well and some students are looked down on. The final point point is, and I think some PA posters can agree with me on this, PA fans never question the Christian values of other fans. Yes, his post was poorly worded but it's SOP for LRC.
Good one Jesse!! People like Incognito is the problemwith private schools!!
Quote from: PA Dad on November 24, 2018, 07:36:24 pm
Jacketfan you are a good poster and I enjoy your posts. I even agree with you that money talks.
But this thread is really good because we've kept it to the facts. Your assertion that private schools have folks in high places to prevent change is just wrong, at least to my understanding. The rules are not made by folks in high places. They are made by the schools and every school gets a vote. So if public schools wanted to ban privates from competing with them they could do so and folks in high places could do nothing about it.
PA Dad, much respect to you, and all posters on here, but all I am saying is that it is bigger than just each school getting a vote. There is a good ole boy system in play, they all talk with each other way before the votes, and they know the outcome before they even vote, if you aren't in the "click" you suffer one way or another. I have seen this happen first hand, I don't agree with it, I don't like it, but as I said earlier, put your big boy pants on, work hard, and beat them with tradition and determination. I respect everyone's opinions, and I enjoy everyone's insight on the subject, I am not trying to be negative, but I call them as I see them. I will bow out of the convo, you guys have a good day, and good luck to PA and LRCA in the finals, play safe, play hard, and shake hands at the end.
Quote from: JessieP on November 25, 2018, 09:59:44 am
Yes, let us never forget that not only are private school students better athletes they are smarter than those dumb public school kids. They were just blessed with better parents. It was nothing to do with this conversation but why not? they're better looking too. That's why those dumb, poor and ugly plebs are not at WMS. Maybe the two schools will let some kids sell programs in the parking lot? Make a few bucks so they can buy Mama a $1 DVD at Wal Mart for Christmas.
Once again, your hate for Christian schools overrides your intelligence. I said nothing whatsoever about private school students being smarter than public school students.
My statement was an indictment of those schools that fail their students because, as in Little Rock and many other cities, the lawyers and feel-good crowd has removed discipline and standards. I would have loved send my kids to a really good public schools like I graduated from, but there are none in West Little Rock. I am not wealthy at all, so I have sacrificed and spent my hard-earned money on a good educational foundation for my kids. So spare me the sanctimonious speech and stop putting words in my mouth. I stand by what I said: High standards leads to high results. In academics, atheletics and life.
Why is there a tendency by so many private school parents to try to hide the advantages of the private schools. The organization and generally quality education without the turmoil that goes on in so many public schools is a definite plus. Most people see the discipline issues and falling scores in so many public schools across the state. It's only natural to want to give your kids the best environment for their education and their social surrounding. Private schools mostly provide this. A bi-product of this stability is being more and more attractive to parents and to their children. Parents are quick to realize when their children display skills either academic or athletic and at early age they begin to cultivate those skills. Sending them to better schools, academic or athletic is a natural result. There is nothing wrong with it but is certainly does "build" a school and or a program. This is the main advantage of private schools. Some will take that and use it to its fullest and that means athletically as well as educationally and socially. Yes, there are some very good public schools that are able to do the same things and I don't think it's necessary to name the good the bad and the ugly of either private or public. Everybody already knows which are which. To think the disadvantages of a good private school outweigh the advantages is fooling yourself. It's funny how hard people work to get ahead and then deny it has happened.
Quote from: JacketFan on November 25, 2018, 10:52:40 am
PA Dad, much respect to you, and all posters on here, but all I am saying is that it is bigger than just each school getting a vote. There is a good ole boy system in play, they all talk with each other way before the votes, and they know the outcome before they even vote, if you aren't in the "click" you suffer one way or another. I have seen this happen first hand, I don't agree with it, I don't like it, but as I said earlier, put your big boy pants on, work hard, and beat them with tradition and determination. I respect everyone's opinions, and I enjoy everyone's insight on the subject, I am not trying to be negative, but I call them as I see them. I will bow out of the convo, you guys have a good day, and good luck to PA and LRCA in the finals, play safe, play hard, and shake hands at the end.
I'll defer to your experience since I have no basis to either agree or disagree. But I find it odd that representatives of public schools scheme to protect private schools.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2018, 11:41:50 am
I'll defer to your experience since I have no basis to either agree or disagree. But I find it odd that representatives of public schools scheme to protect private schools.
I will defer as well, none of us will solve the worlds problems on the great FF forum, but I am appreciative of this site as a way to communicate oppinions, and converse with a plethora of educated folks from across the state. Good luck to the Bruins in the finals, I would like to make it to WMS to watch them win it all again, not sure if I can make it with all the Holiday stuff going on.
Quote from: RazorDad on November 25, 2018, 11:16:23 am
Once again, your hate for Christian schools overrides your intelligence. I said nothing whatsoever about private school students being smarter than public school students.
My statement was an indictment of those schools that fail their students because, as in Little Rock and many other cities, the lawyers and feel-good crowd has removed discipline and standards. I would have loved send my kids to a really good public schools like I graduated from, but there are none in West Little Rock. I am not wealthy at all, so I have sacrificed and spent my hard-earned money on a good educational foundation for my kids. So spare me the sanctimonious speech and stop putting words in my mouth. I stand by what I said: High standards leads to high results. In academics, atheletics and life.
That was a good try, unfortunately passive aggressive manipulation has been debunked as an effective debate tool since the 80's. I have no feelings whatsoever for Christian schools. My wife teaches at a Christian school but we decided we want our kids to interact with people of different races, faiths and economic backgrounds. The world is a salad, we took them off the nipple early. My issue is with PRIVATE schools and it applies exclusively to interscholastic athletics. I also oppose 20 year old drop outs returning to school to play football, follow me? It's really none of your business and has no place on these boards but I am a proud Christian. If you read all the post you must have seen how another LRC poster claimed God wants Christian schools to win, in his less than informed words "That's why he only gave us one cheek to turn", never mind that flies in the face of anything found in Christian literature. I did however get a lot of laughs from friends after sharing that idiotic tidbit. The title of this thread is Private Schools, not Christian Schools.
Earlier this year, and almost every year, PA sissy slapped LRC. Wynne did last year and Batesville did 2 years ago. Did they have higher standards? No they did not. They had better teams. I personally don't think the Deity spend much time rooting for any high school football teams but I may be wrong.
Quote from: JessieP on November 25, 2018, 12:31:02 pm
That was a good try, unfortunately passive aggressive manipulation has been debunked as an effective debate tool since the 80's. I have no feelings whatsoever for Christian schools. My wife teaches at a Christian school but we decided we want our kids to interact with people of different races, faiths and economic backgrounds. The world is a salad, we took them off the nipple early. My issue is with PRIVATE schools and it applies exclusively to interscholastic athletics. I also oppose 20 year old drop outs returning to school to play football, follow me? It's really none of your business and has no place on these boards but I am a proud Christian. If you read all the post you must have seen how another LRC poster claimed God wants Christian schools to win, in his less than informed words "That's why he only gave us one cheek to turn", never mind that flies in the face of anything found in Christian literature. I did however get a lot of laughs from friends after sharing that idiotic tidbit. The title of this thread is Private Schools, not Christian Schools.
Earlier this year, and almost every year, PA sissy slapped LRC. Wynne did last year and Batesville did 2 years ago. Did they have higher standards? No they did not. They had better teams. I personally don't think the Deity spend much time rooting for any high school football teams but I may be wrong.
Serious question what poster claimed God wanted Christian schools to win? I assumed when you said that in another thread you were just lying because well you tend to do that. So if you will post where that was said I will go lay the smack down on that person for being ignorant.
I haven't read through all 30 pages, so this might be a repeated argument. My issue with private schools is the real or perceived recruitment of players and giving them scholarships to attend these schools. This is definitely an unfair advantage when it is used in this way. With that being said I do not believe that all players are on scholarship nor are all scholarship players there specifically for athletics.
I would personally like to see some transparency on this process and who does and doesn't receive scholarships. I think at a minimum the AAA should have access to which players are on scholarship and the burden of proof should be on the school to show that athletics is not a reason the scholarship was received. I think it would be better if there was a committee of conference AD's and coaches, not from that classification, that made the eligibility decision.
Quote from: incogneto on November 25, 2018, 12:57:36 pm
Serious question what poster claimed God wanted Christian schools to win? I assumed when you said that in another thread you were just lying because well you tend to do that. So if you will post where that was said I will go lay the smack down on that person for being ignorant.
Even you agree it was horribly ignorant. I was off a few words, it's on the Texarkana/LRCA thread. What the babbling morn said verbatim was
"God never intended his children to be whipping boys or doormats. He only gave us one extra cheek to turn", the words we're slightly off but the message was the same. I'm glad you agree on the imbecilic nature of that statement.
Your turn, show me one post where I lied? It should be simple if I do it as frequently as you claim.
Now if your a man of your word, head to a mirror and start smacking.
Quote from: Scorpius on November 25, 2018, 01:11:11 pm
I haven't read through all 30 pages, so this might be a repeated argument. My issue with private schools is the real or perceived recruitment of players and giving them scholarships to attend these schools. This is definitely an unfair advantage when it is used in this way. With that being said I do not believe that all players are on scholarship nor are all scholarship players there specifically for athletics.
I would personally like to see some transparency on this process and who does and doesn't receive scholarships. I think at a minimum the AAA should have access to which players are on scholarship and the burden of proof should be on the school to show that athletics is not a reason the scholarship was received. I think it would be better if there was a committee of conference AD's and coaches, not from that classification, that made the eligibility decision.
OMG, this again. AAA has access to all of this.
Quote from: RazorDad on November 25, 2018, 11:16:23 am
Once again, your hate for Christian schools overrides your intelligence. I said nothing whatsoever about private school students being smarter than public school students.
My statement was an indictment of those schools that fail their students because, as in Little Rock and many other cities, the lawyers and feel-good crowd has removed discipline and standards. I would have loved send my kids to a really good public schools like I graduated from, but there are none in West Little Rock. I am not wealthy at all, so I have sacrificed and spent my hard-earned money on a good educational foundation for my kids. So spare me the sanctimonious speech and stop putting words in my mouth. I stand by what I said: High standards leads to high results. In academics, atheletics and life.
There was a point I forgot to make, LRC's higher standard is JH. Without him your season is over at this point. Just like every year prior and next year as well. So to that point I guess you are correct, LRC has a higher standard this year. Problem is PA will field 22 higher standards.
To bring this thread back to it's purpose, why on earth would any private school oppose a separate classification?
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on November 25, 2018, 01:35:48 pm
OMG, this again. AAA has access to all of this.
I agree. We can go back and forth about if it's right but it's not illegal. If it was breaking any rules it would have been found out.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on November 25, 2018, 01:35:48 pm
OMG, this again. AAA has access to all of this.
As stated I've not read all 30 pages of this thread just throwing my 2 cents in. I will say that I've never seen or heard of the AAA having this info. I'm not saying they don't, I've just never seen it.
I would still argue that an independent committee of AD's and coaches should look at all the data and make the eligibility decision. Really they should make all eligibility decisions if a coach wishes to appeal in specific cases.
Quote from: JessieP on November 25, 2018, 01:42:42 pm
I agree. We can go back and forth about if it's right but it's not illegal. If it was breaking any rules it would have been found out.
I completely agree with you, right vs illegal are 2 different things and I'm all about using whatever you can to gain an advantage so long as it's legal. I'm simply offering a possible solution to a problem.
To your other point, I would think that private schools would want there own league as well. It would allow them to set there own rules and do what ever they agreed to. A lot of states have models for a private league that I'm sure could be used.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 24, 2018, 06:52:45 pm
Understood. I know MDX is a little shady but I doubt he would post made up numbers. (Just kidding MDX!)
I really, really have a vendetta if I'm making up numbers!
Quote from: Scorpius on November 25, 2018, 01:11:11 pm
I haven't read through all 30 pages, so this might be a repeated argument. My issue with private schools is the real or perceived recruitment of players and giving them scholarships to attend these schools. This is definitely an unfair advantage when it is used in this way. With that being said I do not believe that all players are on scholarship nor are all scholarship players there specifically for athletics.
I would personally like to see some transparency on this process and who does and doesn't receive scholarships. I think at a minimum the AAA should have access to which players are on scholarship and the burden of proof should be on the school to show that athletics is not a reason the scholarship was received. I think it would be better if there was a committee of conference AD's and coaches, not from that classification, that made the eligibility decision.
All private schools rely on a third party to award financial aid - it has nothing to do with sports and is needs based. That being said, private schools are required to submit information to the AAA stating who is receiving financial aid (which won't be available to the public, or it could be, just redacted so that nobody can figure out which player it is), and how many receive it on each sports team. You can get these documents with an FOI request - which I did in 2015 or 2016, I can't remember.
Although they don't relate to sports, back earlier on this thread I listed a questionable correlation - of course, this may be all that it is. At PA, a disproportionate percentage of financial aid (relative to the entire school) was given to the football team. At Baptist, it was basketball. At Trinity Christian, it's track. As you might know - those are the sports that these schools are dominating their respective class. Again, this could be a coincidence, I just find it odd.
Private schools, at least the bigger and more athletically successful ones, don't want a league of their own because it would hold no glamor. If they only play each other no one would care and there would be no notoriety. Then quickly the better athletes would start moving to the better public schools. Their desire to play in the public league is just self preservation.
Additionally, a private school league that is separate from public would ruin what you all are trying to solve. PA and LRC, even Catholic, would open up recruiting to a whole new level. That all star that went to public school - why not go to a private school that a booster is recruiting you do for a better education and more exposure and opportunity? They would play by their own rules - not AAA rules (which are at least moderately governing the recruiting business).
I keep hearing how this is cyclical - but it's not at all in regards to private schools. PA and LRC girls are fantastic at soccer and have been for as long as I can remember. They may not always win (only because Harrison does), but it's a constant and not a cycle. PA football, especially since Kelley, has been on a tear. Do they always win state? No - but they either do or they are eliminated by the eventual champion.
This absolutely isn't because of "recruiting" (although a 25 mile radius as a district in LR is a terrible rule IMO), but it's because of socioeconomic advantages and others that have been discussed on this thread. It has a lot to do with the work they put in and the coaches they have, but the other factors and advantages CANNOT be ignored any longer - they simply make too much of an impact. There MUST be a better system in place other than grouping kids just based on how many attend the high school. This has no relevance - just because there are a lot of kids at a school doesn't mean the ratio that plays is equal in every school. I don't know what the better system is, but there are other options. We need to really explore these options and see if they could work in our state.
Yellow, of course the kids would love to beat PA and not say get them out of their conference, but those kids also don't know what we all know. And if one public school has a chance to dethrone a private every 6/7 years, does it even matter?
MDX, nice post but I disagree in that while I believe the privates could and would unleash a recruiting frenzy, I think most really good athletes would rather go play in the public league against the best teams. Arkansas is too small to support very many PA's, Shiloh's and LRChristians. They would have too few good schools to compete against and so it would not be attractive to kids who were looking to go on to the next level or wanted to play against the best. Eventually even the press coverage would drop off.
I don't want to rehash all the previous thoughts on this again but the punch line to me is that sports should be a "competition" not a foregone conclusion. A bunch of mercy rule games every year are a waste of everyone's time IMO. IF PA could play just football in 6A it seems like a pretty good solution to me
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2018, 02:28:02 pm
Additionally, a private school league that is separate from public would ruin what you all are trying to solve. PA and LRC, even Catholic, would open up recruiting to a whole new level. That all star that went to public school - why not go to a private school that a booster is recruiting you do for a better education and more exposure and opportunity? They would play by their own rules - not AAA rules (which are at least moderately governing the recruiting business).
I keep hearing how this is cyclical - but it's not at all in regards to private schools. PA and LRC girls are fantastic at soccer and have been for as long as I can remember. They may not always win (only because Harrison does), but it's a constant and not a cycle. PA football, especially since Kelley, has been on a tear. Do they always win state? No - but they either do or they are eliminated by the eventual champion.
This absolutely isn't because of "recruiting" (although a 25 mile radius as a district in LR is a terrible rule IMO), but it's because of socioeconomic advantages and others that have been discussed on this thread. It has a lot to do with the work they put in and the coaches they have, but the other factors and advantages CANNOT be ignored any longer - they simply make too much of an impact. There MUST be a better system in place other than grouping kids just based on how many attend the high school. This has no relevance - just because there are a lot of kids at a school doesn't mean the ratio that plays is equal in every school. I don't know what the better system is, but there are other options. We need to really explore these options and see if they could work in our state.
Yellow, of course the kids would love to beat PA and not say get them out of their conference, but those kids also don't know what we all know. And if one public school has a chance to dethrone a private every 6/7 years, does it even matter?
I agree with almost everything you say except your first point. You are totally dismissing the essence of "Friday Night Lights", that being the community. Why are most people in the stands Pioneer fans? Because of the D1 talent they produce? No, because they attended BHS, they live in Batesville, they are vested in Batesville. The same goes for Wynne, Morrilton, Texarkana or any other public school. If all the next level talent transferred to "Football schools" that played out of state games would the stands be any less full? the answer is NO. People take pride in their community, it's bragging rights. How many people in the stands attended the school they cheer for or live in that town? almost all of them. We don't love our teams because they produce scholarship players we love them because they are us. If the private schools take the best player from every public school then the field is still level, we'll still cheer for our towns.
They ask Seth Greenfield if the NBA created a separate league for star high school players, to get rid of the one and done's. Would it hurt March Madness? He said no, it would make no difference at all. Kentucky fans will cheer for Kentucky, Gonzaga fans for Gonzaga, UCLA fans for UCLA and so on down the list. You are totally discounting civic pride. Is Jacket Fan a Wynne lover because of the talent they produce? Not even close, he loves WYnne because he went to Wynne, his kids went to Wynne. If PA and LRC want to become IMG type schools then happy trails, the rest of us will cheer our communities.
Anyone who thinks you need a private school to get noticed by college scouts knows NOTHING about recruiting.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 24, 2018, 10:11:40 pm
I am not sure I understand this response?
I don't love being hated. But the hate, I get it. Trust me. More than you can know I get it. I lived to hate PA, until I had kids and ended up sending them there. It's a long story and an interesting journey. Will tell you about it someday if we meet.
It is indeed a cool story. Great story.
Hope all is well.
Why do y'all think that the top private schools would play just other schools in Arkansas if they were in their own league? They have resources we can't imagine. PA could schedule other top tier teams in the surrounding states and play on national TV. A public/private separation would have a massive negative impact on public schools in Arkansas. Negative impact does not mean that the stands still won't be full Jessie - but you can surely see that the privates would flex at the public schools if we all somehow tried to get rid of them. It wouldn't be good.
Quote from: Overdahill on November 25, 2018, 02:45:55 pm
I don't want to rehash all the previous thoughts on this again but the punch line to me is that sports should be a "competition" not a foregone conclusion. A bunch of mercy rule games every year are a waste of everyone's time IMO. IF PA could play just football in 6A it seems like a pretty good solution to me
It could work, but do you just do it to PA? Gotta be some rules in order to just bump them up. Unless they would just petition themselves.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2018, 03:04:22 pm
Why do y'all think that the top private schools would play just other schools in Arkansas if they were in their own league? They have resources we can't imagine. PA could schedule other top tier teams in the surrounding states and play on national TV. A public/private separation would have a massive negative impact on public schools in Arkansas. Negative impact does not mean that the stands still won't be full Jessie - but you can surely see that the privates would flex at the public schools if we all somehow tried to get rid of them. It wouldn't be good.
I think you are very wrong about who gets hurt in a private/public split. Every private doesn't have the resources to travel for half their games or more to play better out of state schools. I don't see much impact on the public schools loosing a couple of their opponents as opposed to privates losing almost all.
As for public schools supporting their teams you must not go to many schools around the state. Lots of schools around Arkansas don't support losing programs and even some of the good programs don't travel that well when the game is very far away. Some private schools may travel for a while but I'm not sure how long that would last before it got old and tiring.
Quote from: game on on November 25, 2018, 03:28:21 pm
I think you are very wrong about who gets hurt in a private/public split. Every private doesn't have the resources to travel for half their games or more to play better out of state schools. I don't see much impact on the public schools loosing a couple of their opponents as opposed to privates losing almost all.
As for public schools supporting their teams you must not go to many schools around the state. Lots of schools around Arkansas don't support losing programs and even some of the good programs don't travel that well when the game is very far away. Some private schools may travel for a while but I'm not sure how long that would last before it got old and tiring.
Agree to disagree. Everyone sees it from their own view.
I've been to a lot of games in a lot of sports and I've seen them from perspective of player, coach, fan, referee, etc. at the high school level. So I have a good idea of how all that works with support.
Quote from: JessieP on November 25, 2018, 02:47:06 pm
I agree with almost everything you say except your first point. You are totally dismissing the essence of "Friday Night Lights", that being the community. Why are most people in the stands Pioneer fans? Because of the D1 talent they produce? No, because they attended BHS, they live in Batesville, they are vested in Batesville. The same goes for Wynne, Morrilton, Texarkana or any other public school. If all the next level talent transferred to "Football schools" that played out of state games would the stands be any less full? the answer is NO. People take pride in their community, it's bragging rights. How many people in the stands attended the school they cheer for or live in that town? almost all of them. We don't love our teams because they produce scholarship players we love them because they are us. If the private schools take the best player from every public school then the field is still level, we'll still cheer for our towns.
They ask Seth Greenfield if the NBA created a separate league for star high school players, to get rid of the one and done's. Would it hurt March Madness? He said no, it would make no difference at all. Kentucky fans will cheer for Kentucky, Gonzaga fans for Gonzaga, UCLA fans for UCLA and so on down the list. You are totally discounting civic pride. Is Jacket Fan a Wynne lover because of the talent they produce? Not even close, he loves WYnne because he went to Wynne, his kids went to Wynne. If PA and LRC want to become IMG type schools then happy trails, the rest of us will cheer our communities.
Spot on JesseP, a team that is enriched in tradition where the community gets behind the team with all they have will almost always have a successful team. I am a Jacket alum, I never played football, I never had a son play football, but I have a daughter that plays sports, I just sincerely love high school football, I always have. Been following my Jackets for almost 30 yrs. Community is Football, and Football is Community. Go Jackets
Quote from: JessieP on November 25, 2018, 01:33:46 pm
Even you agree it was horribly ignorant. I was off a few words, it's on the Texarkana/LRCA thread. What the babbling morn said verbatim was "God never intended his children to be whipping boys or doormats. He only gave us one extra cheek to turn", the words we're slightly off but the message was the same. I'm glad you agree on the imbecilic nature of that statement.
Your turn, show me one post where I lied? It should be simple if I do it as frequently as you claim.
Now if your a man of your word, head to a mirror and start smacking.
Ok that quote is the start of lie #1. You are not stupid and you know that was me actually calling you out for lying in other posts. It has nothing to do with me saying God wants LRCA to win. That statement says God doesn't want you to just lay down and let someone continue to abuse you just because you are a Christian.
Lie # 2 you exaggerated the statement that "if" they separated private schools there's would be a big temptation for PA and LRCA to actually recruit and to go compete out of state. You lied and claimed that I said LRCA "was" trying to be IMG. Once again you are not stupid so you knew you were stretching the truth about what was really said. That is called a lie. So that's 2 lies.
Lie #3 you claimed that LRCA actually recruits and even has a coach in charge of recruiting. You are welcome to start telling the truth at any time but until then that three blatant lies and that either make you stupid or a liar and I done think you are stupid. So lace that shoe up and wear it because you no credibility.
Quote from: incogneto on November 25, 2018, 05:33:22 pm
Ok that quote is the start of lie #1. You are not stupid and you know that was me actually calling you out for lying in other posts. It has nothing to do with me saying God wants LRCA to win. That statement says God doesn't want you to just lay down and let someone continue to abuse you just because you are a Christian.
Lie # 2 you exaggerated the statement that "if" they separated private schools there's would be a big temptation for PA and LRCA to actually recruit and to go compete out of state. You lied and claimed that I said LRCA "was" trying to be IMG. Once again you are not stupid so you knew you were stretching the truth about what was really said. That is called a lie. So that's 2 lies.
Lie #3 you claimed that LRCA actually recruits and even has a coach in charge of recruiting. You are welcome to start telling the truth at any time but until then that three blatant lies and that either make you stupid or a liar and I done think you are stupid. So lace that shoe up and wear it because you no credibility.
Wow, you really are stupid. Not one of those examples is a lie. It's difference of opinion. Don't back peddle and say I lied because I didn't decipher your points the way you intended. I go only on your words. The recruiting coach, well that's a matter of naming a 3rd party who is not in this conversation. People know who he is, you honestly think the recruiter is my opinion alone? that's powerful stupid right there. It's known by a great many posters. The fact you freaked out say's you know it to be true. I do understand your anger, this is by far your best chance to win a championship but you also know it ain't gonna happen. Your only shot graduates next year. LRC so close yet so very far away. Poor poor PA lite.
Quote from: JessieP on November 25, 2018, 06:44:15 pm
Wow, you really are stupid. Not one of those examples is a lie. It's difference of opinion. Don't back peddle and say I lied because I didn't decipher your points the way you intended. I go only on your words. The recruiting coach, well that's a matter of naming a 3rd party who is not in this conversation. People know who he is, you honestly think the recruiter is my opinion alone? that's powerful stupid right there. It's known by a great many posters. The fact you freaked out say's you know it to be true. I do understand your anger, this is by far your best chance to win a championship but you also know it ain't gonna happen. Your only shot graduates next year. LRC so close yet so very far away. Poor poor PA lite.
Lying and difference of opinion are no where close to being the same thing. You are a sad little man. Name the recruiting coordinator.
Y'all done? Every thread ends up with you two bantering back and forth.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2018, 06:50:15 pm
Y'all done? Every thread ends up with you two bantering back and forth.
Probably not.
The point on parents wanting to send their kids to stable schools with less turmoil is completely valid. Not only does this benefit PA and LRCA, but schools like Bryant, NLR and Joe T Robinson all of whom will be playing in state title games. Parents are sending their kids out of LRSD and all these schools are benefitting, not only PA and LRCA.
However, I don't think this is something for which these schools should be punished. A separate league would not make sense in Arkansas. We are too small of a state with not enough private schools to support that. The current system works for some private schools but doesn't for others. Consider Baptist who went 0-10 in 4A football for the last two seasons. They didn't have enough players, talent or tradition to compete against schools twice their size. There's not a one-size-fits-all solution.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2018, 06:50:15 pm
Y'all done? Every thread ends up with you two bantering back and forth.
He follows me. I do not engage him, but here he is. I need to stop responding and just ignore.
Quote from: eaglefan200 on November 25, 2018, 07:24:35 pm
The point on parents wanting to send their kids to stable schools with less turmoil is completely valid. Not only does this benefit PA and LRCA, but schools like Bryant, NLR and Joe T Robinson all of whom will be playing in state title games. Parents are sending their kids out of LRSD and all these schools are benefitting, not only PA and LRCA.
However, I don't think this is something for which these schools should be punished. A separate league would not make sense in Arkansas. We are too small of a state with not enough private schools to support that. The current system works for some private schools but doesn't for others. Consider Baptist who went 0-10 in 4A football for the last two seasons. They didn't have enough players, talent or tradition to compete against schools twice their size. There's not a one-size-fits-all solution.
But also consider Baptist in basketball the last three years...
There absolutely isn't a one-size-fits-all solution - I agree. However, I don't think that a success advancement system would be too hard to implement across different sports. I also don't consider it a punishment to be so good that you get to move up to better competition and compete at a higher level.
Quote from: JessieP on November 25, 2018, 07:31:45 pm
He follows me. I do not engage him, but here he is. I need to stop responding and just ignore.
That's probably a good idea. He seems to just want to trigger you anyway.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2015, 09:20:47 pm
Maybe not a bad idea , if numbers dictated it also , but if it's gonna be both then let's say private schools have district lines as well ? Gotta live in certain area , there has to be boundaries, otherwise Conway players could go to greenbrier or Vilonia for example, those lines apply to the public schools,
You can go to any public school under school choice, I think. If you transfer after 7th grade (maybe?) then you have to sit out a year.
Conway players do go to Greenbier, Vilonia and Morrilton. That's how they get playing time. Just have to do it legal by school choice or live with the coach.
You have to have school choice paperwork done by May of following year to play sports in the fall. If not, you have to sit out a year. The school district where you reside at doesn't have to offer the release to another school. Big schools like Conway could care less and release students all the time. The only way Greenbier or Morrilton will release a student on school choice is if they are a huge discipline problem and they want rid of them. Otherwise, they need the numbers and money.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2018, 07:33:32 pm
That's probably a good idea. He seems to just want to trigger you anyway.
Yeah Jess, since you came over to Count Maynard's Dark Side, you are Witch Hunt target :D
1. The issue isn't recruiting, its money. Quit making it about something it's not.
For the most part, the majority of the posters are educated. We all have jobs were we can spend some time on here and create debatable topics. Think about your kids' day. I'm sure they all had breakfast, will get a solid meal at home and will have a decent meal at school.
Now thing about that kid that's always the last to get picked up from practice. The one who is kinda skinny and the coaches get him 2 sandwiches on the next road trip. The one that is ashamed to go eat breakfast in the morning at school because he's ashamed he's on free meals. That's the difference between the schools.
Yes PA and LRCA have an impoverished contingent, and I admire their efforts to include a diverse culture through their scholarship programs. However, for the most part, their parents aren't struggling to put food on the table and keep the electricity on.
Morrilton is approximate 72% Free and reduced. Harrison about 66%. It's hard to put weight on with an empty stomach.
I get the heartbreak of losing playoff games. And it does suck for a town like Harrison who is having a run of once a generation talent coming through, but it's more than just coaching that gives PA an advantage.
If you guys believe there is not recruiting going on at all levels and both public and private you are kidding yourself. I know of cases, I have seen cases. As for Arkansas being too small to support a private school league I agree but that's not the public schools responsibility to make sure private schools have a place to play. When its pretty clear that private schools have advantages that public do not it makes it difficult for public school folks to be supportive of the two mixed. Private schools winning so many championships in a row sure makes for a lot of anti-private school firepower. A few years back the rule changes to restrict some of the activity of private schools did help but it was not without a fight and several years to get it done. To me the best answer is beginning to look like a success multiplier. I've seen this recommended in several forms over the last few years.
Quote from: we_hate_the_band on November 26, 2018, 11:32:51 am
1. The issue isn't recruiting, its money. Quit making it about something it's not.
+1
I whole heartedly agree with this....Recruiting occurs every bit as much in public schools as it dose in private, all be it private schools may be more enticing than others. When I refer to the advantages private schools have recruiting is not even on the list.
I also agree with your other points as well.
I agree money is an issue a big one, but recruiting is part of that as well. There is just so many things that contribute to the overall success of any program and persuading kids or parents to enroll kids or to move kids is a factor. When a good school goes out and touts its benefits and successes that is recruiting just as directly showing up a a peewee game or a junior high game and introducing yourself to a parent or a player and encouraging them to look at a particular school. It happens and it happen all across the state.
While I agree wholeheartedly about the advantages private schools enjoy I'm not sure we should blow the whole thing up just yet. Let's be honest here, it's really not private schools everyone is frustrated with in the world of 5A football, it's a private school, singular. PA is to 800 lb elephant in the room. This year LRC is in the championship because of one player, this will pass. Without Hill LRC is sitting home after round 1, like most years. PA's success is by and large a result of outside the box coaching. Yes private schools enjoy financial and boundary advantages but that doesn't explain 5 in a row. If that were the case it would be PA wins it then LRC wins it then PA wins it. That is not the case. LRC has even more advantages then PA and it hasn't produced titles. If I can give KK his due then anyone can. If you think LRC has an equal coaching staff your crazy. Are we to believe they have a play where no one is open and JH runs around for 60 yards before either finding an open receiver or an open path to the end zone? What's the play called? "Ok, let's run 88 power keystone cops on 1, ready...break". Not likely. Next year PA is still PA and LRC will be in the chase pack with everyone else. So as far as 5A football is concerned the irritating private school is PA, end of discussion.
I say move them up to 7A and this debate ends. It's not punishing them it's rewarding and challenging them. KK does not strike me as a coach who backs down from a challenge.
Quote from: game on on November 26, 2018, 12:32:09 pm
I agree money is an issue a big one, but recruiting is part of that as well. There is just so many things that contribute to the overall success of any program and persuading kids or parents to enroll kids or to move kids is a factor. When a good school goes out and touts its benefits and successes that is recruiting just as directly showing up a a peewee game or a junior high game and introducing yourself to a parent or a player and encouraging them to look at a particular school. It happens and it happen all across the state.
Success breeds success. There a reason real estate in Greenwood, Fayetteville, and Bentonville is considered prime. Academic and Athletic success are the most powerful recruiting tool to a parent.
Quote from: JessieP on November 26, 2018, 01:23:10 pm
While I agree wholeheartedly about the advantages private schools enjoy I'm not sure we should blow the whole thing up just yet. Let's be honest here, it's really not private schools everyone is frustrated with in the world of 5A football, it's a private school, singular. PA is to 800 lb elephant in the room. This year LRC is in the championship because of one player, this will pass. Without Hill LRC is sitting home after round 1, like most years. PA's success is by and large a result of outside the box coaching. Yes private schools enjoy financial and boundary advantages but that doesn't explain 5 in a row. If that were the case it would be PA wins it then LRC wins it then PA wins it. That is not the case. LRC has even more advantages then PA and it hasn't produced titles. If I can give KK his due then anyone can. If you think LRC has an equal coaching staff your crazy. Are we to believe they have a play where no one is open and JH runs around for 60 yards before either finding an open receiver or an open path to the end zone? What's the play called? "Ok, let's run 88 power keystone cops on 1, ready...break". Not likely. Next year PA is still PA and LRC will be in the chase pack with everyone else. So as far as 5A football is concerned the irritating private school is PA, end of discussion.
I say move them up to 7A and this debate ends. It's not punishing them it's rewarding and challenging them. KK does not strike me as a coach who backs down from a challenge.
I must be getting senile in my old age because I agree completely with Jessie. We wouldn't be having this discussion if PA was not on the run it's on.
I also agree that moving PA up to 6A or 7A would be a good thing.
Oh WOW, it's back.
NOW... MDXPHD needs to post a picture of the FOI documents he received from the AAA. I asked him in a PM to send me a scanned copy via email... and he immediately posted a "farewell" message in his "Wow Guys" thread (which has now been taken off the board).
The last time I asked him to provide the numbers (back in the Spring) he cut and ran. He has offered to send them out via PM, I am calling his hand on that one. And I invite others to do the same, if you have any doubts. I will post many reasons to doubt them shortly.
Quote from: RamblinRazorWreck on November 27, 2018, 07:52:28 am
Oh WOW, it's back.
NOW... MDXPHD needs to post a picture of the FOI documents he received from the AAA. I asked him in a PM to send me a scanned copy via email... and he immediately posted a "farewell" message in his "Wow Guys" thread (which has now been taken off the board).
The last time I asked him to provide the numbers (back in the Spring) he cut and ran. He has offered to send them out via PM, I am calling his hand on that one. And I invite others to do the same, if you have any doubts. I will post many reasons to doubt them shortly.
Same here. I PM'd him my email address immediately after he requested it earlier in this thread and no response. So, I can only summize that he has been blowing smoke and those that wanted to believe those "facts" fell for it.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 26, 2018, 01:35:13 pm
I must be getting senile in my old age because I agree completely with Jessie. We wouldn't be having this discussion if PA was not on the run it's on.
I also agree that moving PA up to 6A or 7A would be a good thing.
I like the success model if it isn't just applied to private schools. My reasoning is that model is based on results based data not subjective data. Junction City would not stay 3A in this model. Greenwood would be 7A. PA would be at least 6A. Hopefully LRCA would eventually end up 6A or better. Warren would likely move up some years. I think it would bring more 4A schools up to compete in 5A. Teams like Alma and Tex could fight to stay up and not be forced down.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 26, 2018, 01:35:13 pm
I must be getting senile in my old age because I agree completely with Jessie. We wouldn't be having this discussion if PA was not on the run it's on.
I also agree that moving PA up to 6A or 7A would be a good thing.
^^^ Ditto
Quote from: incogneto on November 27, 2018, 08:24:55 am
I like the success model if it isn't just applied to private schools. My reasoning is that model is based on results based data not subjective data. Junction City would not stay 3A in this model. Greenwood would be 7A. PA would be at least 6A. Hopefully LRCA would eventually end up 6A or better. Warren would likely move up some years. I think it would bring more 4A schools up to compete in 5A. Teams like Alma and Tex could fight to stay up and not be forced down.
?
Quote from: incogneto on November 27, 2018, 08:42:42 am
Sorry I meant the success multiplier.
I think the idea is interesting during certain years but overall the model would not be successful.
Quote from: AHS06 on November 27, 2018, 08:55:49 am
I think the idea is interesting during certain years but overall the model would not be successful.
Help me understand why you think that?
Quote from: incogneto on November 27, 2018, 08:57:32 am
Help me understand why you think that?
The teams would be all over the place and no consistency. There's a reason why we have the classifications that we have now. Certain years the model would produce some great entertainment but overall we'll still see top heavy conferences, still have enrollment challenges, travel issues, etc. What type of award goes to lesser conferences? Some type of meet of the champs would be more stable. Using the teams you mentioned 2A Junction City was smacked by 3A Smackover, 4A Shiloh was demolished by 5A Texarkana, LRCA didn't play anybody during non-conference, Greenwood was drove by FS Northside and wouldn't stand a chance against NLR, PA vs Greenwood would be a great match but I see Greenwood winning.
Quote from: AHS06 on November 27, 2018, 09:26:19 am
The teams would be all over the place and no consistency. There's a reason why we have the classifications that we have now. Certain years the model would produce some great entertainment but overall we'll still see top heavy conferences, still have enrollment challenges, travel issues, etc. What type of award goes to lesser conferences? Some type of meet of the champs would be more stable. Using the teams you mentioned 2A Junction City was smacked by 3A Smackover, 4A Shiloh was demolished by 5A Texarkana, LRCA didn't play anybody during non-conference, Greenwood was drove by FS Northside and wouldn't stand a chance against NLR, PA vs Greenwood would be a great match but I see Greenwood winning.
AHS06,
Have you seen what the current system has produced around the state?
Quote from: sevenof400 on November 27, 2018, 10:13:33 am
AHS06,
Have you seen what the current system has produced around the state?
Yes. However, the model in the discussion would make things worse.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2018, 02:19:53 pm
I really, really have a vendetta if I'm making up numbers!
I am sure we all agree with you 100% on this.
Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on November 25, 2018, 01:35:48 pm
OMG, this again. AAA has access to all of this.
Yes, AAA has all this info and doesn't care.
3 AAA employees have kids enrolled at PA and 2 have kids enrolled at LRC.
However LRC or PA wants AAA to do things is how it will be. How many times has LRC bounced around in conference. Had to get out of the West and go to Central like PA so they can both make it to LR this year. They will slide back down to 4A again like Shiloh Christian did when they loose their good players.
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 02:22:27 pm
Yes, AAA has all this info and doesn't care.
3 AAA board members have kids enrolled at PA and 2 have kids enrolled at LRC.
However LRC or PA wants AAA to do things is how it will be. How many times has LRC bounced around in conference. Had to get out of the West and go to Central like PA so they can both make it to LR this year. They will slide back down to 4A again like Shiloh Christian did when they loose their good players.
Shiloh has never been 5A by numbers. The two years they asked to go up to 5A was the worst teams I have ever seen them have. They would have been mediocre in 4A those two years so I was scratching my head in confusion wondering why they appealed to move up to 5A those two years.....
AAA allowed them to move up because you had a really good quarterback and they wanted another AAA sponsored private school playing in LR.
Devil Dogs ruined that in 2013 by scoring 70 something points on them. Wish AAA would let us jump back and forth.
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 02:28:18 pm
We played them in a 5A conference game in 2013. That help with your head scratching?
Yes, because they appealed to move up. Your post implied the AAA let them move back down to do better like somehow when LRC will get moved down when their talent drops off so they can do better there. That had nothing to do with it. Does that help you? I am not even sure you understood the post cause I was simply correcting that Shiloh was never 5A by numbers. They appealed to move up, and did so when it was the least talent they have ever had. That was very poor decision making by someone in their administration and they learned their lesson. It had nothing to do with the AAA.
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 02:22:27 pm
Yes, AAA has all this info and doesn't care.
3 AAA board members have kids enrolled at PA and 2 have kids enrolled at LRC.
However LRC or PA wants AAA to do things is how it will be. How many times has LRC bounced around in conference. Had to get out of the West and go to Central like PA so they can both make it to LR this year. They will slide back down to 4A again like Shiloh Christian did when they loose their good players.
But hey, Morrilton beat PA in 2013 so live is pretty good in Conway County.
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 02:22:27 pm
Yes, AAA has all this info and doesn't care.
3 AAA board members have kids enrolled at PA and 2 have kids enrolled at LRC.
However LRC or PA wants AAA to do things is how it will be. How many times has LRC bounced around in conference. Had to get out of the West and go to Central like PA so they can both make it to LR this year. They will slide back down to 4A again like Shiloh Christian did when they loose their good players.
This cannot be true. The would have to recuse themselves, that wouldn't even happen in New Jersey.
Quote from: beach bum on November 27, 2018, 02:30:01 pm
Yes, because they appealed to move up. Your post implied the AAA let them move back down to do better like somehow when LRC will get moved down when their talent drops off so they can do better there. That had nothing to do with it. Does that help you? I am not even sure you understood the post cause I was simply correcting that Shiloh was never 5A by numbers. They appealed to move up, and did so when it was the least talent they have ever had. That was very poor decision making by someone in their administration and they learned their lesson. It had nothing to do with the AAA.
AAA allowed them to move up because you had a really good quarterback and they wanted another AAA sponsored private school playing in LR.
Devil Dogs ruined that in 2013 by scoring 70 something points on them. Wish AAA would let us jump back and forth. Or even West to Central. PA stays the same but you have to pull AAA conference info every year to see if we are playing LRC.
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 02:22:27 pm
Yes, AAA has all this info and doesn't care.
3 AAA board members have kids enrolled at PA and 2 have kids enrolled at LRC.
However LRC or PA wants AAA to do things is how it will be. How many times has LRC bounced around in conference. Had to get out of the West and go to Central like PA so they can both make it to LR this year. They will slide back down to 4A again like Shiloh Christian did when they loose their good players.
Wow, the two that have kids at LRCA have a really far drive to get to achool every day and also must be in the witness protection program because they don't exist under their real names.
Quote from: RazorDad on November 27, 2018, 02:44:27 pm
Wow, the two that have kids at LRCA have a really far drive to get to achool every day and also must be in the witness protection program because they don't exist under their real names.
Yeah, long commute. All the AAA board members live in the same neighborhood. Geez.
These are some rather bold statements that should not be said unless you are willing to substantiate them...
Quote from: RazorDad on November 27, 2018, 02:44:27 pm
Wow, the two that have kids at LRCA have a really far drive to get to achool every day and also must be in the witness protection program because they don't exist under their real names.
Exactly... almost all of the Board Members are Supers at other school districts. The lies are really getting deep in this thread!!!
Black helicopters are circling in Conway County
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 02:46:18 pm
Yeah, long commute. All the AAA board members live in the same neighborhood. Geez.
I guess if you consider the whole state of Arkansas as one big neighborhood then you could be right...
:o
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on November 27, 2018, 02:49:29 pm
Black helicopters are circling in Conway County
Only over certain houses....
http://www.ahsaa.org/page/7/board-of-directors?type=page (http://www.ahsaa.org/page/7/board-of-directors?type=page)
Just to make it easier for everyone to research the truth. LINK to AAA Board above.
Quote from: RamblinRazorWreck on November 27, 2018, 02:55:58 pm
http://www.ahsaa.org/page/7/board-of-directors?type=page (http://www.ahsaa.org/page/7/board-of-directors?type=page)
Just to make it easier for everyone to research the truth. LINK to AAA Board above.
Looks like there is fake news on this board. The only private school representative I see is the super at Catholic. If any board members have kids at PA or LRCA I'd be very surprised.
Nice work MoTownDog.
Not even an honest mistake. You just flat made up a lie to perpetrate other lies.
Sad and pathetic.
.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 03:53:49 pm
Nice work MoTownDog.
Not even an honest mistake. You just flat made up a lie to perpetrate other lies.
Sad and pathetic.
Now I wonder if Morrilton really beat PA in 2013. :) and I was at the game.
And to think some do not believe in the New World Order?
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 02:28:18 pm
AAA allowed them to move up because you had a really good quarterback and they wanted another AAA sponsored private school playing in LR.
Devil Dogs ruined that in 2013 by scoring 70 something points on them. Wish AAA would let us jump back and forth.
For the record since I know you like to get all of your facts straight, Morrilton scored 57 on PA in 2013.
Quote from: RamblinRazorWreck on November 27, 2018, 02:55:58 pm
http://www.ahsaa.org/page/7/board-of-directors?type=page (http://www.ahsaa.org/page/7/board-of-directors?type=page)
Just to make it easier for everyone to research the truth. LINK to AAA Board above.
Another FF rumor put to rest. Whatever happened to truth in advertising? What's next? Are we gonna find in actuality that Maynard G Krebs gets driven around town in a simple Lincoln Town car? His driver is only a 7 or an 8 and she is almost 30? I am losing my faith in humanity.
Quote from: JessieP on November 27, 2018, 04:54:29 pm
Another FF rumor put to rest. Whatever happened to truth in advertising? What's next? Are we gonna find in actuality that Maynard G Krebs gets driven around town in a simple Lincoln Town car? His driver is only a 7 or an 8 and she is almost 30? I am losing my faith in humanity.
I don't understand why people think they have to lie.
Jessie, if you make it to the game, I will be on the PA sidelines. Easy to spot. 6'4", 230, 30ish years old, smoldering good looks and filthy rich. Look forward to meeting you.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 05:01:29 pm
I don't understand why people think they have to lie.
Jessie, if you make it to the game, I will be on the PA sidelines. Easy to spot. 6'4", 230, 30ish years old, smoldering good looks and filthy rich. Look forward to meeting you.
6'8 at least.
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 02:22:27 pm
Yes, AAA has all this info and doesn't care.
3 AAA board members have kids enrolled at PA and 2 have kids enrolled at LRC.
However LRC or PA wants AAA to do things is how it will be. How many times has LRC bounced around in conference. Had to get out of the West and go to Central like PA so they can both make it to LR this year. They will slide back down to 4A again like Shiloh Christian did when they loose their good players.
LRCA would prefer to be in the West.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 05:01:29 pm
I don't understand why people think they have to lie.
Jessie, if you make it to the game, I will be on the PA sidelines. Easy to spot. 6'4", 230, 30ish years old, smoldering good looks and filthy rich. Look forward to meeting you.
I will be there with the fluorescent yellow sweatshirt on with I am a AAA board member in in bold letters, lol. ;D :D ;D
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 05:01:29 pm
I don't understand why people think they have to lie.
Jessie, if you make it to the game, I will be on the PA sidelines. Easy to spot. 6'4", 230, 30ish years old, smoldering good looks and filthy rich. Look forward to meeting you.
I would like to introduce myself to you as well but if you're on the field how can I? Last year at the 4A Championship I went down on the field to congratulate both teams and everybody freaked out! I mean that female cop could have simply ask me to lay down, she didn't have to body slam me like that.
Quote from: JessieP on November 27, 2018, 06:23:08 pm
I would like to introduce myself to you as well but if you're on the field how can I? Last year at the 4A Championship I went down on the field to congratulate both teams and everybody freaked out! I mean that female cop could have simply ask me to lay down, she didn't have to body slam me like that.
Now THAT's funny!
Wow. You people must have gone to public school.
First of all, I was referring to the 14 employees of the AAA. Not the board of directors. You know, the ones who drive to the AAA main office in LR everyday for work. Unless they have one of those black helicopters you are referring to, I'm assuming they live within driving distance of Little Rock. They may even leave a little early and drop kids off at lrc and pa. I tried putting their names on here but FF won't let me. Go to that AAA website then pull out your yearbooks and figure it out.
Next, take time to follow the post. I said we scored 70 on Shiloh in 2013. I didn't say anything about a score for PA.
Looks like everyone jumped to conclusions on old MoTownDog, but it looks like he came back swinging for the fences. 5 of the 14 administrative employees having kids attend PA and LRCA, if true, is definitely a interesting conversation talking point, and may explain a lot of things on this forum.
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 07:12:13 pm
Wow. You people must have gone to public school.
First of all, I was referring to the 14 employees of the AAA. Not the board of directors. You know, the ones who drive to the AAA main office in LR everyday for work. Unless they have one of those black helicopters you are referring to, I'm assuming they live within driving distance of Little Rock. They may even leave a little early and drop kids off at lrc and pa. I tried putting their names on here but FF won't let me. Go to that AAA website then pull out your yearbooks and figure it out.
Next, take time to follow the post. I said we scored 70 on Shiloh in 2013. I didn't say anything about a score for PA.
Just looked at the staff and compared to LRCA parent directory. No matches. How about giving the titles of the staff whose kids attend LRCA instead of names
Quote from: AirWarren on November 27, 2018, 05:14:04 pm
6'8 at least.
6'8" with the fro....
Some of you will get that. Some won't.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 08:52:19 pm
6'8" with the fro....
Some of you will get that. Some won't.
I dig it
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 05:01:29 pm
I don't understand why people think they have to lie.
Jessie, if you make it to the game, I will be on the PA sidelines. Easy to spot. 6'4", 230, 30ish years old, smoldering good looks and filthy rich. Look forward to meeting you.
This may be my favorite post ever...;)
Here's a link to the staffers.
I know none of them. Certainly no high school player parents. And none of their titles appear like they have authority to influence decisions regarding classification of schools or conference alignment.
http://www.ahsaa.org/page/6/staff?type=page
So, until we get proven facts, I am still calling you out. In fact, your new Delta Chi pledge name is MSNBC going forward.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 08:58:36 pm
Here's a link to the staffers.
I know none of them. Certainly no high school player parents. And none of their titles appear like they have authority to influence decisions regarding classification of schools or conference alignment.
http://www.ahsaa.org/page/6/staff?type=page
So, until we get proven facts, I am still calling you out. In fact, your new Delta Chi pledge name is MSNBC going forward.
As Delta Chi pledge Flounder sez, " oh boy, is this great!"
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 02:46:18 pm
Yeah, long commute. All the AAA board members live in the same neighborhood. Geez.
Sure do, in Cabot maybe.
LRCA - no Taylors, no Laskers, No Walters, no Walter, no Roberts.... hmmm!
;D
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 08:58:36 pm
Here's a link to the staffers.
I know none of them. Certainly no high school player parents. And none of their titles appear like they have authority to influence decisions regarding classification of schools or conference alignment.
http://www.ahsaa.org/page/6/staff?type=page
So, until we get proven facts, I am still calling you out. In fact, your new Delta Chi pledge name is MSNBC going forward.
We had a guy that lied so much in school we would call BS by invoking his name. When someone would tell a story that was not believable and we would call them Ted.
I know the first guy listed. My neighbor's brother in law. Zero PA affiliation. I also don't think anyone at PA is related to the Philadelphia boxer who beat Appolo Creed.
Come on big boy, identify them without using names. We can figure it out.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 09:05:58 pm
I know the first guy listed. My neighbor's brother in law. Zero PA affiliation. I also don't think anyone at PA is related to the Philadelphia boxer who beat Appolo Creed.
Come on big boy, identify them without using names. We can figure it out.
And he also whipped Apollo Creed
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 09:05:58 pm
I know the first guy listed. My neighbor's brother in law. Zero PA affiliation. I also don't think anyone at PA is related to the Philadelphia boxer who beat Appolo Creed.
Come on big boy, identify them without using names. We can figure it out.
It's gotta be the ex ASU coach. That's the PA tie in. He probably helped recruit Freddie Knighten
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 02:22:27 pm
Yes, AAA has all this info and doesn't care.
3 AAA employees have kids enrolled at PA and 2 have kids enrolled at LRC.
However LRC or PA wants AAA to do things is how it will be. How many times has LRC bounced around in conference. Had to get out of the West and go to Central like PA so they can both make it to LR this year. They will slide back down to 4A again like Shiloh Christian did when they loose their good players.
I don't think employees make policy or make decisions about what conference a school is in. I think either the board does that or, more probably, all schools vote on that. So please explain how employees have the power you ascribe to them.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 08:52:19 pm
6'8" with the fro....
Some of you will get that. Some won't.
"Hey Kareem, how bout that Fletch"?
Quote from: LRCAdad on November 27, 2018, 09:10:30 pm
It's gotta be the ex ASU coach. That's the PA tie in. He probably helped recruit Freddie Knighten
Nope, he is the coaching staff member at LRCA in charge of recruitment and its slush fund. Don't be trying to push that off on us.
The receptionist is the one who runs our entire black ops program. Moved the entire Henry family to Little Rock from Atlanta on a Huey. Furniture, cars (not the ones we gave them, they were here waiting), everything they owned.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 05:01:29 pm
I don't understand why people think they have to lie.
Jessie, if you make it to the game, I will be on the PA sidelines. Easy to spot. 6'4", 230, 30ish years old, smoldering good looks and filthy rich. Look forward to meeting you.
Now you are making up lies. 30ish? 😂 Dont forget I was at Fayetteville with you hanging out at The Gazebo. Filthy rich and smoldering good looks? Maybe...
Quote from: JessieP on November 27, 2018, 09:16:31 pm
"Hey Kareem, how bout that Fletch"?
I knew you and a few other of my contemporaries would know lines from movies who were robbed of academy award nominations.
Yellowcake, I'll finally reveal my name. It's John Cocktoasten.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 09:17:01 pm
Nope, he is the coaching staff member at LRCA in charge of recruitment and its slush fund. Don't be trying to push that off on us.
The receptionist is the one who runs our entire black ops program. Moved the entire Henry family to Little Rock from Atlanta on a Huey. Furniture, cars (not the ones we gave them, they were here waiting), everything they owned.
A car? I told LRCA a gift basket and enrollment to the jelly of the month club wouldn't be enough.
Quote from: JessieP on November 27, 2018, 09:20:12 pm
Yellowcake, I'll finally reveal my name. It's John Cocktoasten.
And you are wanted in 5 states for removing mattress tags.
Quote from: MoTownDog on November 27, 2018, 07:12:13 pm
Wow. You people must have gone to public school.
First of all, I was referring to the 14 employees of the AAA. Not the board of directors. You know, the ones who drive to the AAA main office in LR everyday for work. Unless they have one of those black helicopters you are referring to, I'm assuming they live within driving distance of Little Rock. They may even leave a little early and drop kids off at lrc and pa. I tried putting their names on here but FF won't let me. Go to that AAA website then pull out your yearbooks and figure it out.
Next, take time to follow the post. I said we scored 70 on Shiloh in 2013. I didn't say anything about a score for PA.
Your original post said "Board Members". That faux pax is on you and you alone Bro.
Let's not get too far afield of how full of it MoTown Dog is.
I'm still sticking with witness protection program. Gotta keep our moles safe!
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 27, 2018, 09:23:33 pm
And you are wanted in 5 states for removing mattress tags.
Lol. We better stop, if we don't this could go on until kickoff. In closing I'd like to add maybe you need a refresher course, it's all ball bearings.
Chewing gum filters out the pollutants.
Quote from: RamblinRazorWreck on November 27, 2018, 09:28:39 pm
Your original post said "Board Members". That faux pax is on you and you alone Bro.
I was referring to the AAA employees, who drive to NLR to work at the AAA office — from Cabot (3) Sherwood, LR, NLR...
Taylor, Brodell, Walters, Lasker, Roberts, Harvey, Mays, Walter, Clark, Cunningham, Balboa, Holloway, Foreman, Langley — nowhere to be found in LRCA directory.
Quote from: RamblinRazorWreck on November 27, 2018, 09:51:29 pm
Chewing gum filters out the pollutants.
Outstanding! Well played Sir.
"It's a conspiracy; look it up! No, wait, don't look it up! " MTD :D
Quote from: Rocket23 on November 27, 2018, 09:55:15 pm
I was referring to the AAA employees, who drive to NLR to work at the AAA office — from Cabot (3) Sherwood, LR, NLR...
Taylor, Brodell, Walters, Lasker, Roberts, Harvey, Mays, Walter, Clark, Cunningham, Balboa, Holloway, Foreman, Langley — nowhere to be found in LRCA directory.
So are you a sockpuppet of MoTown's? ;D Must have logged in as your alter-ego (Just kidding). He made the original post and I was referring to him. I guess I should have quoted him, but I did not want to include his edit after the fact.
No, it wasn't referencing you, it was going back to his statement. You and I are backing up same points.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 26, 2018, 01:35:13 pm
I must be getting senile in my old age because I agree completely with Jessie. We wouldn't be having this discussion if PA was not on the run it's on.
I also agree that moving PA up to 6A or 7A would be a good thing.
The fact that PA is doing so well for so long is what points to the possibility that its advantages are what is creating the success. Of course nobody cares if you are not doing well.
I'd be curious to see how PA would fair if it went up to 6A or 7A. I'm sure the AAA would consider a PA request to do that.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 27, 2018, 09:14:17 pm
I don't think employees make policy or make decisions about what conference a school is in. I think either the board does that or, more probably, all schools vote on that. So please explain how employees have the power you ascribe to them.
I believe the employees at the AAA set up the conferences and then present those recommendations to the board. The board which is made up of school employees, supers and AD's for the most part, vote to approve or make suggestions for changes. Ever been to a board meeting? Obviously there have been discussions about what is on the table before the meeting. Not saying that is necessarily bad but its politics.
RazorDad and Ramblin - since you two want to question my character and say I'm lying, I thought I'd just get on here to defend myself and let you know that I don't lie, nor would I have reason to lie about the numbers. I won't say much more about that.
I sent some documents just the other day to Sevenof400 and also PA Dad so they know I have the documents - but if you want to see them you'll have to request them yourself. Instead of being foolish, maybe sometimes remember that people who are small business owners and have three kids are busy and didn't check/see their PMs.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 28, 2018, 03:22:08 pm
RazorDad and Ramblin - since you two want to question my character and say I'm lying, I thought I'd just get on here to defend myself and let you know that I don't lie, nor would I have reason to lie about the numbers. I won't say much more about that.
I sent some documents just the other day to Sevenof400 and also PA Dad so they know I have the documents - but if you want to see them you'll have to request them yourself. Instead of being foolish, maybe sometimes remember that people who are small business owners and have three kids are busy and didn't check/see their PMs.
Fair enough. Thanks for the response.
One question though, if you don't mind. Where or from whom did you get the dollar values of the aid? AAA also? I do not see where they have those on the forms the schools are to fill out.
One thing that seems pretty obvious is something needs to change in order to approve the system.
Quote from: RamblinRazorWreck on November 28, 2018, 03:39:41 pm
Fair enough. Thanks for the response.
One question though, if you don't mind. Where or from whom did you get the dollar values of the aid? AAA also? I do not see where they have those on the forms the schools are to fill out.
Yes, they give the students a random ID number from what I can tell, and submit the actual financial aid amount assigned to that student into one form. So they have to submit a form that has all of that information on it. It's called the "Financial Aid Form for Non-public School Athletes." It has four columns - ID Number, Amount of Need determined, amount of aid awarded by the school, and the student's grade level. The most I saw awarded by PA was $14,025.00 - which seemed to be the max for that year. There was only one student who received that though.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 28, 2018, 03:47:56 pm
Yes, they give the students a random ID number from what I can tell, and submit the actual financial aid amount assigned to that student into one form. So they have to submit a form that has all of that information on it. It's called the "Financial Aid Form for Non-public School Athletes." It has four columns - ID Number, Amount of Need determined, amount of aid awarded by the school, and the student's grade level. The most I saw awarded by PA was $14,025.00 - which seemed to be the max for that year. There was only one student who received that though.
It costs 14000 a year per student to attend PA, holy smokes, that is higher than a giraffes backside.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 28, 2018, 03:22:08 pm
RazorDad and Ramblin - since you two want to question my character and say I'm lying, I thought I'd just get on here to defend myself and let you know that I don't lie, nor would I have reason to lie about the numbers. I won't say much more about that.
I sent some documents just the other day to Sevenof400 and also PA Dad so they know I have the documents - but if you want to see them you'll have to request them yourself. Instead of being foolish, maybe sometimes remember that people who are small business owners and have three kids are busy and didn't check/see their PMs.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2016, 08:36:21 pm
I would like access to more information, but unfortunately the privates have a large shield afforded to them.
I spout opinions because this is a message board. Im not moving for summary judgment. I can voice opinions without any evidence at all on here. That's the beauty of a message board. If we only dealt with facts on here, 99 percent of posts wouldn't be allowed. I like making accusatory statements without any facts or evidence in order to see the sensitivity of Pa posters. It's amusing. You keep questioning and being critical of me like this is my profession. I assure yoU, I'll be okay at what I do. I won't be near as good as you are at our professions most likely, but I'll do my best to only apply facts and legal analysis without any opinions when I practice.
Nice dodge, MXDPHD. Here is your character in your own words from earlier in this thread. So, all evidence still points to you blowing smoke to provoke a reaction since you refuse to provide your proof when asked.
BTW, how did you get a FOI request processed in just 5 days? On December 19, 2015, you said you made the request on December 16 and had not received an answer. On December 21, you proclaimed how many PA students received financial aid. In my profession, I have filed hundreds of FOIs to many different entities and have never received an answer in days. Most took at least a month.
Quote from: JacketFan on November 28, 2018, 04:04:59 pm
It costs 14000 a year per student to attend PA, holy smokes, that is higher than a giraffes backside.
And remember, this is supposedly a 2015 number. I don't remember the tuition being that high back then, but it could be for an international student?
Quote from: RazorDad on November 28, 2018, 04:35:53 pm
Nice dodge, MXDPHD. Here is your character in your own words from earlier in this thread. So, all evidence still points to you blowing smoke to provoke a reaction since you refuse to provide your proof when asked.
BTW, how did you get a FOI request processed in just 5 days? On December 19, 2015, you said you made the request on December 16 and had not received an answer. On December 21, you proclaimed how many PA students received financial aid. In my profession, I have filed hundreds of FOIs to many different entities and have never received an answer in days. Most took at least a month.
Guess you just don't know the right people.
You can say I'm blowing smoke - I'm fine with that. Guess you will never know for sure. I don't answer to you.
34 pages of does it really matter if your opponent is private or public, you still have to take care of your own house?
Ok Yellowcake and Ramblin, lets see if you're on your A-game? "A little tree water ain't gonna hurt him. Warning, he's got a little Mississippi leg hound in him"
Quote from: JessieP on November 28, 2018, 07:05:06 pm
Ok Yellowcake and Ramblin, lets see if you're on your A-game? "A little tree water ain't gonna hurt him. Warning, he's got a little Mississippi leg hound in him"
He's a pixie dust spreader on the tilt a whirl, next year he'll be guessing peoples weight or barking for the yak lady. Ever see her? She got these big horn growing right out of her head, ugly and sin but a heck of a cook!"
Quote from: incogneto on November 28, 2018, 07:31:16 pm
He's a pixie dust spreader on the tilt a whirl, next year he'll be guessing peoples weight or barking for the yak lady. Ever see her? She got these big horn growing right out of her head, ugly and sin but a heck of a cook!"
The crapper's getting full
"You better take a rain check on that... He's got a lip fungus they ain't identified yet."
Maynard, Incognito and Ramblin well done. It's on AMC as we speak. It's one of those movies where if your channel surfin in July and it's on, you stay put.
Thank you to all three of you, you've taught me everything I know about holiday exterior illumination.
So many great lines that I still manage to keep in the rotation today.
...and why is the carpet all wet TODD?!
I don't KNOW, Margo!
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on November 28, 2018, 09:32:39 pm
So many great lines that I still manage to keep in the rotation today.
...and why is the carpet all wet TODD?!
I don't KNOW, Margo!
That's what makes America great. We can argue over politics, religion, social issues and even high school football but a true patriot can throw out 80's movie quotes.
The purple mountain's majesty, the silent majesty of a winters morn, the clean cool chill of the holiday air, a rear hole in his bathrobe draining his toilet into my sewer.
Quote from: JessieP on November 28, 2018, 09:45:42 pm
That's what makes America great. We can argue over politics, religion, social issues and even high school football but a true patriot can throw out 80's movie quotes.
The purple mountain's majesty, the silent majesty of a winters morn, the clean cool chill of the holiday air, a rear hole in his bathrobe draining his toilet into my sewer.
Is you house on fire Clark?
Quote from: JessieP on November 28, 2018, 09:45:42 pm
That's what makes America great. We can argue over politics, religion, social issues and even high school football but a true patriot can throw out 80's movie quotes.
The purple mountain's majesty, the silent majesty of a winters morn, the clean cool chill of the holiday air, a rear hole in his bathrobe draining his toilet into my sewer.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/10lejR0T1gf1II/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on November 28, 2018, 09:32:39 pm
So many great lines that I still manage to keep in the rotation today.
...and why is the carpet all wet TODD?!
I don't KNOW, Margo!
Lol. Great line.
When something is "wrong", that's my wife and I's go to lol.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 28, 2018, 03:22:08 pm
RazorDad and Ramblin - since you two want to question my character and say I'm lying, I thought I'd just get on here to defend myself and let you know that I don't lie, nor would I have reason to lie about the numbers. I won't say much more about that.
I sent some documents just the other day to Sevenof400 and also PA Dad so they know I have the documents - but if you want to see them you'll have to request them yourself. Instead of being foolish, maybe sometimes remember that people who are small business owners and have three kids are busy and didn't check/see their PMs.
Confirmed.
Quote from: AirWarren on November 29, 2018, 07:13:46 pm
Can they be shared?
For any who want to see what MDX sent me pm me your email address and I'll send them to you. It will be tomorrow before I can do so.
I try to bump this thread every year because it is the best discussion of public versus private ever. Some of the posts are nonsense but on the whole the discussion is intelligent and thoughtful. I recommend it for new posters.
Quote from: PA Dad on August 06, 2019, 11:20:58 pm
I try to bump this thread every year because it is the best discussion of public versus private ever. Some of the posts are nonsense but on the whole the discussion is intelligent and thoughtful. I recommend it for new posters.
I must admit, I cringed when I saw it back near the top.
with all due respect, I think it's the deadest of dead horses.
Quote from: Yellowcake on August 08, 2019, 12:17:45 pm
with all due respect, I think it's the deadest of dead horses.
Amen
Quote from: Overdahill on August 08, 2019, 01:07:01 pm
Amen
To piggyback and quote the late, great curmudgeon Bill Powell, "Amen to beans!"
MX, Jessie
So what new players have the public schools recruited transferred in?
Non-public schools will probably debut theirs very soon.
(http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/ncbdoCpKerEbK/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Go Postal on August 08, 2019, 09:14:25 pm
MX, Jessie
So what new players have the public schools recruited transferred in?
Non-public schools will probably debut theirs very soon.
(http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/ncbdoCpKerEbK/giphy.gif)
We were hearing murmurings that LRCA has a new transfer QB, I even heard it here. Turns out it was false, we have been told that every player on their roster has been there since they started teething. As far as Batesville goes, we put out offers to some 5 Star players in both Texas and California, offered blind third party financial aid, but were turned down. Their parents had concerns about the kids getting caught up in the Batesville night life. Seems our brochures with bikini clad girls sunning on the sand and beautiful girls in little black dresses dancing the night away can also work against you.
Yeah, we been hitting up Missouri too. Already got 3 professional coaches from there so far.
I heard about that night life over there in your area but it still is cheaper than in central AR. ;)
Quote from: Go Postal on August 08, 2019, 11:11:19 pm
Yeah, we been hitting up Missouri too. Already got 3 professional coaches from there so far.
I heard about that night life over there in your area but it still is cheaper than in central AR. ;)
I need a favor from you. Three times I have been nailed for speeding in Harrison. Over the past 6 years I have gotten 3 tickets on our way to Branson, always in the same spot, about a mile north of the Wal Mart. Can I have your name so the next time I can tell the cop "I'm close personal friends with Go Postal so pucker up and kiss my backside" I know you're the mysterious man behind the curtain up there.
Quote from: JessieP on August 08, 2019, 11:31:35 pm
I need a favor from you. Three times I have been nailed for speeding in Harrison. Over the past 6 years I have gotten 3 tickets on our way to Branson, always in the same spot, about a mile north of the Wal Mart. Can I have your name so the next time I can tell the cop "I'm close personal friends with Go Postal so pucker up and kiss my backside" I know you're the mysterious man behind the curtain up there.
Boy, you are hard headed, you think you would have learned your lesson after the first ticket. You helped pay for Harrison's new uniforms last year, lol
Quote from: JessieP on August 08, 2019, 11:31:35 pm
I need a favor from you. Three times I have been nailed for speeding in Harrison. Over the past 6 years I have gotten 3 tickets on our way to Branson, always in the same spot, about a mile north of the Wal Mart. Can I have your name so the next time I can tell the cop "I'm close personal friends with Go Postal so pucker up and kiss my backside" I know you're the mysterious man behind the curtain up there.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/AEMyf9Oj6MpS8/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a0fc82edccda623e83737df535454f6e17c4654ba&rid=giphy.gif)
Quote from: JacketFan on August 08, 2019, 11:52:14 pm
Boy, you are hard headed, you think you would have learned your lesson after the first ticket. You helped pay for Harrison's new uniforms last year, lol
That's true because ours is a public school and have to get money from somewhere. We're not like some non-public schools that can afford a different color uniform for every day of the week. ;)
But we even had enough to license a deal with Under Armor this year for Goblins Fan's gear from all the revenue that he provided. Thanks Jessie. GO Pioneers!
Getting buses ready for the upcoming school year:
Public
(https://barnfinds.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/1949-Ford-Bus-630x390.jpg)
Private
(https://media.giphy.com/media/NktFjqntkZQbe/giphy.gif)
Quote from: PA Dad on November 27, 2018, 03:36:32 pm
Looks like there is fake news on this board. The only private school representative I see is the super at Catholic. If any board members have kids at PA or LRCA I'd be very surprised.
What is funny is the only area that truly has a problem with private schools and "recruiting" are the schools in LR area. You dont hear schools in the NWA area complaining about Shiloh. Maybe just the weaker teams of 4A, but for the most part schools don't fear Shiloh. Fayetteville, Harber, Springdale, Bentonville, and Bentonville West have plenty of players to remain as some of the best schools, I'll leave out Rogers and Heritage as they are just happy just to win a game. Pea Ridge and Prarie Grove arent afraid to play Shiloh. Also I see more movement from public to public than public to private. Last year Springdale had a few players from Harber switch over, this year looks like Harber got a few players from Fayetteville. Might hear more about that later in the year, but look for Harber to be a really good team this year. Definitely got some talent over there and will be fun to watch. Bentonville and Bentonville West will have strong teams. Fayetteville lost of few players probably due to coaching changes so will be interesting to see how they do this year.
If PA is successful this year they will have to do it with coaching and execution as I dont see them with the talent they have had in the past. Look for Harrison, Texarkana, and Wynn to challenge.
Not Fair!... Enough said!...
Quote from: rzrbackfan on August 22, 2019, 04:02:05 pm
What is funny is the only area that truly has a problem with private schools and "recruiting" are the schools in LR area.
I think that's because there's a more even ratio of private to public schools, and the private schools in central Arkansas are as a whole more competitive in all sports than they are in NWA. The demographics are different too - there are what, 7 7A schools in NWA, then a bunch of 4A/5A schools in the surrounding communities. In Pulaski County, there are 3 7A schools, and a group of 4A/5A (and 2 6A) schools. Add to that at least 8 private schools, and the student populations are 'diluted' more among public and private schools. And down here, we have the similar problems with public to public transfers. I mentioned to Jessie in another thread that within the LRSD and PCSSSD, it's an all-out arms race to get kids to come to a particular school, especially in basketball. And the LRSD schools can get around the recruiting guidelines because they are magnet schools, so they can sell academic programs in the open while selling the athletics under the table. I think the AAA has tightened up some on the domicile/district rules, but if a kid wants to play and be immediately eligible, the school can find a loophole.
I'll tell you something, I will never question the transactions or rosters of PA or LRC again.
To use an analogy, imagine the AAA is a traffic cop. I was up in arms because I thought PA and LRCA didn't come to a complete stop at the stop sign. Now we have a situation where someone is barreling through a school zone at 90 mph and the cop just smiles and waves.
Chief_Osceola was not kidding. There is a total and complete arms race in Arkansas and no one is watching the store.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on August 22, 2019, 04:02:05 pm
What is funny is the only area that truly has a problem with private schools and "recruiting" are the schools in LR area. You dont hear schools in the NWA area complaining about Shiloh. Maybe just the weaker teams of 4A, but for the most part schools don't fear Shiloh. Fayetteville, Harber, Springdale, Bentonville, and Bentonville West have plenty of players to remain as some of the best schools, I'll leave out Rogers and Heritage as they are just happy just to win a game. Pea Ridge and Prarie Grove arent afraid to play Shiloh. Also I see more movement from public to public than public to private. Last year Springdale had a few players from Harber switch over, this year looks like Harber got a few players from Fayetteville. Might hear more about that later in the year, but look for Harber to be a really good team this year. Definitely got some talent over there and will be fun to watch. Bentonville and Bentonville West will have strong teams. Fayetteville lost of few players probably due to coaching changes so will be interesting to see how they do this year.
If PA is successful this year they will have to do it with coaching and execution as I dont see them with the talent they have had in the past. Look for Harrison, Texarkana, and Wynn to challenge.
They only gripe about teams that win.
Quote from: incogneto on August 22, 2019, 07:44:15 pm
They only gripe about teams that win.
Now if a team wasn't winning it wouldn't exactly be considered an advantage, now would it Professor Hawking?
Quote from: JessieP on August 22, 2019, 05:30:14 pm
I'll tell you something, I will never question the transactions or rosters of PA or LRC again.
To use an analogy, imagine the AAA is a traffic cop. I was up in arms because I thought PA and LRCA didn't come to a complete stop at the stop sign. Now we have a situation where someone is barreling through a school zone at 90 mph and the cop just smiles and waves.
Chief_Osceola was not kidding. There is a total and complete arms race in Arkansas and no one is watching the store.
I can't believe I'm posting in this thread again, but what do you mean? What arms race?
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on August 22, 2019, 10:35:01 pm
I can't believe I'm posting in this thread again, but what do you mean? What arms race?
Chief was telling me about the flurry of transfers in basketball. From what I'm hearing kids can switch schools on a whim.
Happened with Sylvan Hills, their best basketball player transferred to mills. It's ongoing.... Maumelle had two football players transfer last year. One to McClellan and the other to Sylvan Hills.
Quote from: JessieP on August 22, 2019, 10:37:55 pm
Chief was telling me about the flurry of transfers in basketball. From what I'm hearing kids can switch schools on a whim.
Yeah it definitely goes on here in the 501, probably more so in b-ball. I can name 7 or 8 in the past 2 to 3 years off the top of my head, and that's just kids coming into and out of Maumelle. All legal of course, but it happens across all these schools to an extent.
We're fortunate. Kids can transfer out of our district and go to Southside to never be heard from again athletically.
Bump. For the new posters who think the private schools have advantages.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 14, 2019, 07:27:05 pm
Bump. For the new posters who think the private schools have advantages.
And for the old ones who know they do!
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 14, 2019, 07:48:30 pm
And for the old ones who know they do!
Thank you. For the people who think they don't? I'm sure there are some people who don't think they have an advantage but not a lot of geriatric Tibetan Monks with early onset dementia post here.
Quote from: JessieP on November 14, 2019, 08:07:31 pm
Thank you. For the people who think they don't? I'm sure there are some people who don't think they have an advantage but not a lot of geriatric Tibetan Monks with early onset dementia post here.
Come on, Jessie, be respectful of your elders.
As the field narrows and the Season is coming to an end we are once again realizing that the two private schools in the 5A will meet at WMS in what will become an annual tradition. The AAA will never takes steps to address the issue and the public schools will watch from afar knowing they can't afford a title. Sure every few years a school like Harrison (fingers crossed), Wynne, LRM or even Batesville May make it there but it's getting rarer and rarer. Up until the last few years LRCA was on the outside as well, what did they do? They went shopping. There isn't a single thing the public schools can do about it.
Now before anyone with their head in the sand starts in with "it's just Jessie whining and starting drama" bs, let's look at the words of Bob Cook. Cook is widely considered the preeminent authority on high school sports in America. He has authored books on the subject, numerous articles and even testified before Congress. In a 2015 article in Forbes magazine "How to solve the public vs private battle in high school sports" he wrote:
"Private schools have a huge competitive advantage. Their enrollments are not restricted by geographical boundaries, they actively recruit students in order to stay in business.
The playing field is simply not level, and the success factor isn't going to make it so. The time has come for separation"
But what does Bob Cook know? He's a Chicago based Nationally renowned contributor to CNN, MSNBC, Fox Sports and ESPN. He's probably just jealous because Batesville lost. The sad fact is that while kids at public schools work every bit as hard they don't have access to nutritionalist, expensive camps, catered meals or specialized training. In the Arkansas 5A football race the title is like a Supermodel sitting alone at the bar. You can say hi, even offer to buy her a drink but we all know you don't make enough to take her home.
Prediction for 2020? Uh, PA vs LRCA? All is not lost though. Somewhere in Central Arkansas there is a jr high kid dominating, a God gifted stud tearing it up for some public school. He will get a ring one day, sadly it will be with a private school. You can bank on it.
West Memphis has figured out the answer, all you have to do is start a home school run by a overzealous ex football player. I am on board with it, I recently purchased a dilapidated building to fix up as the new Jacket Foundation consolidated home school venture, to help out kids that come from bad situations, but they must have at least 3 offers from big colleges to be guaranteed a spot. I am currently accepting anonymous donations, don't want no one knowing my business, got to keep it "incognito" if you know what I mean. Send me the money so we can help these needy athletes, I mean, help these needy students out.
You know this has been a conversation for about 2 decades In NWA having to deal with the private school up here. In the Late 90's early 2000 the AAA finally saw it as a problem an put the restrictions that hopefully get followed on these private schools. Funny thing up here the playing field got a lot tighter up here, so I have to say our private school is possibly following the rules. But, they do have a competitive advantage over public schools. Plus, I do know they recruit. I have been witness to a certain Private school phone call to a dad, so please no denial. Harrison has an amazing team this year an is very deserving of a state championship it would be a shame for them to be denied 2 years in a row to a private school. Until the AAA does something like make a private school conf. this will happen. I feel your pain.
Quote from: Dart@1090 on November 17, 2019, 12:57:17 pm
You know this has been a conversation for about 2 decades In NWA having to deal with the private school up here. In the Late 90's early 2000 the AAA finally saw it as a problem an put the restrictions that hopefully get followed on these private schools. Funny thing up here the playing field got a lot tighter up here, so I have to say our private school is possibly following the rules. But, they do have a competitive advantage over public schools. Plus, I do know they recruit. I have been witness to a certain Private school phone call to a dad, so please no denial. Harrison has an amazing team this year an is very deserving of a state championship it would be a shame for them to be denied 2 years in a row to a private school. Until the AAA does something like make a private school conf. this will happen. I feel your pain.
My favorite retort is "We don't recruit, present proof". Good old proof. You mean like proof OJ killed two people? How about Al Capone being in the mafia? The government never proved it, he admitted it but it was never proven. Proof is in the eye of the beholder. Things go on every day for which we have no proof, but everyone knows they happen.
IMO, it isn't the recruiting that gives them advantages. It's the same stuff that gives some other public schools advantages: socioeconomic factors. Way more prominent here though. Unlimited resources and opportunities.
Private schools here have boundaries - their district is a 25 mile radius. In the right spot, they have a ton of kids that could enroll.
However, If you enroll after 7th grade and already live within the boundaries, you must sit out a year. Sure, there could probably be exceptions to this, but that's the rule as I understand it.
Only thing you can do is change the method of classifying all schools or just private schools to a success advancement system. Use it, and it creates much more parity after just a Few years. However, sports aren't built on parity. I just don't have a good solution. I do think the success advancement is by far the easiest to implement and best solution though.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 17, 2019, 01:48:03 pm
IMO, it isn't the recruiting that gives them advantages. It's the same stuff that gives some other public schools advantages: socioeconomic factors. Way more prominent here though. Unlimited resources and opportunities.
Private schools here have boundaries - their district is a 25 mile radius. In the right spot, they have a ton of kids that could enroll.
However, If you enroll after 7th grade and already live within the boundaries, you must sit out a year. Sure, there could probably be exceptions to this, but that's the rule as I understand it.
Only thing you can do is change the method of classifying all schools or just private schools to a success advancement system. Use it, and it creates much more parity after just a Few years. However, sports aren't built on parity. I just don't have a good solution. I do think the success advancement is by far the easiest to implement and best solution though.
This is way more accurate than JPs whiny rant with a nationally acclaimed author. Once again...for The Who knows how many times...kids in an urban area with a lot of schools in a 25 mile radius can chose to bounce. Based on education, religion, sports, etc...etc..etc.. so should a student who was bullied at one school be denied to another because of geography? Student not athlete. Should someone who wants a higher education be denied because they are zoned for hall? Student not athlete. Should someone who loves drama be denied the chance to act just because their school has no such department? We could list tons of examples here. Why aren't we talking about any of those? Oh it's because the rural community (which I grew up in here in Arkansas) that can't seem to get that many public schools in Little Rock end their elementary programs in the 5,6, and even 9th grade. Then kids MUST decide. They have NO choice. Private or Public. Which is best for their son or daughters situation? Their future.
In Batesville you go to Batesville....K-12. In Little Rock you may go K-5,K-6, and yes even K-9 before you have to go to central, hall, Robinson,fair,etc....all based on where you live in the city. OR you go private....where all students, regardless of skin color, athleticism, or whatever other factors you want to describe...may actually get financial assistance.
So back to your point....it's not always recruiting in Little Rock. Never going to stand on a holier than though pedestal and say it hasn't happened. BUT HAVE FACTS...not whiny rural pipe dreams. I mean why has 2A junction city been so good for years? Hmmm...I wonder? More times than not it's a decision PARENTS are making. Whites from LRCA to PA and sit. Then PA to Robinson for baseball and no penalty. The youngest back to LRCA. No one recruited. Or no one excused them of it. So why does an African American student or athlete get the cry of FOUL!!!! He/she was recruited!!! No way they could afford it. They have to be on scholarship??
Yawn...JP bores me. Same song 18th verse. One thing I give you JP is you have witty responses. Will read it eventually. Maybe it will actually be laced with facts. Doubt it..
Quote from: loveallball on November 17, 2019, 02:17:34 pm
This is way more accurate than JPs whiny rant with a nationally acclaimed author. Once again...for The Who knows how many times...kids in an urban area with a lot of schools in a 25 mile radius can chose to bounce. Based on education, religion, sports, etc...etc..etc.. so should a student who was bullied at one school be denied to another because of geography? Student not athlete. Should someone who wants a higher education be denied because they are zoned for hall? Student not athlete. Should someone who loves drama be denied the chance to act just because their school has no such department? We could list tons of examples here. Why aren't we talking about any of those? Oh it's because the rural community (which I grew up in here in Arkansas) that can't seem to get that many public schools in Little Rock end their elementary programs in the 5,6, and even 9th grade. Then kids MUST decide. They have NO choice. Private or Public. Which is best for their son or daughters situation? Their future.
In Batesville you go to Batesville....K-12. In Little Rock you may go K-5,K-6, and yes even K-9 before you have to go to central, hall, Robinson,fair,etc....all based on where you live in the city. OR you go private....where all students, regardless of skin color, athleticism, or whatever other factors you want to describe...may actually get financial assistance.
So back to your point....it's not always recruiting in Little Rock. Never going to stand on a holier than though pedestal and say it hasn't happened. BUT HAVE FACTS...not whiny rural pipe dreams. I mean why has 2A junction city been so good for years? Hmmm...I wonder? More times than not it's a decision PARENTS are making. Whites from LRCA to PA and sit. Then PA to Robinson for baseball and no penalty. The youngest back to LRCA. No one recruited. Or no one excused them of it. So why does an African American student or athlete get the cry of FOUL!!!! He/she was recruited!!! No way they could afford it. They have to be on scholarship??
Yawn...JP bores me. Same song 18th verse. One thing I give you JP is you have witty responses. Will read it eventually. Maybe it will actually be laced with facts. Doubt it..
Wow, so many stupid points, where to begin? We'll not even address you playing the race card, quite cowardly I may add. Knowing everyone runs and hides when you pull that card out. It's the 2019 equivalent of facing a beating in the 80's and laying on the floor in a fetal position screaming "I'm a hemophiliac, I'm a hemophiliac" cowardly yet effective. The point about not talking about drama students? Let me think long and hard...I got it, "THIS IS NOT A SITE THAT DISCUSSES HIGH SCHOLL DRAMA CLUBS. ITS A FOOTBALL FORUM" Does that help professor Hawking?
Now some may argue that a four paragraph response is not indicative of something that bores you (Yawn) rather it proves it hit a nerve. Thou dost protest too much, methinks.
Another thing I've noticed "no one talks about" on this board? 2A girls track and field! Why is that? It's a real head scratcher.
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 02:37:46 pm... Another thing I've noticed "no one talks about" on this board? 2A girls track and field! Why is that? It's a real head scratcher.
Rattler43 would like to have some words with you, Jessie.....as would AlmaTrackster. :)
Quote from: sevenof400 on November 17, 2019, 02:45:34 pm
Rattler43 would like to have some words with you, Jessie.....as would AlmaTrackster. :)
Not Almatrackster. The last time I thought I'd impress him with my track acumen I was left running and yelping with my tail tucked. Not poking that beehive again.
On a more useful note to this thread, the simple reliance on student population counts as the only method for determining (slotting) schools in a classification needs improved. Leaving the private schools aside for the moment, there are some significant mismatches created by AAA's methodology in the 5A ranks in the public schools. One day I hope I find the right answer to that quandary....
In the meantime, promotion / relegation is still (at least) a partial answer to this problem. LRCA and PA would both be in the highest classification this season - and much more likely to face opponents with similar (or perhaps better comparable) resources.
Quote from: sevenof400 on November 17, 2019, 03:39:18 pm
On a more useful note to this thread, the simple reliance on student population counts as the only method for determining (slotting) schools in a classification needs improved. Leaving the private schools aside for the moment, there are some significant mismatches created by AAA's methodology in the 5A ranks in the public schools. One day I hope I find the right answer to that quandary....
In the meantime, promotion / relegation is still (at least) a partial answer to this problem. LRCA and PA would both be in the highest classification this season - and much more likely to face opponents with similar (or perhaps better comparable) resources.
It's the easiest implementation in the world. Do away with the 7A, combine them in the 6A. Drop the bottom schools down to the 5A, move PA/LRCA to the new 6A. You have a very competitive 6A and 5A. You may have a different Champion every year. The fans would come back and excitement would triple. The downside? Our 2 5A private school may face tough games 6 or 7 times a year and they would have to fight every week. No way they stand for that.
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 03:45:41 pm
It's the easiest implementation in the world. Do away with the 7A, combine them in the 6A. Drop the bottom schools down to the 5A, move PA/LRCA to the new 6A. You have a very competitive 6A and 5A. You may have a different Champion every year. The fans would come back and excitement would triple. The downside? Our 2 5A private school may face tough games 6 or 7 times a year and they would have to fight every week. No way they stand for that.
A couple of points.
First, there is a 30 something page thread on this page about this subject. I'm not sure why we need another one. The public vs private thread is one of the best ever and contains about every observation/argument on this subject.
Second, you say the privates wouldn't stand for being moved up where they would face stiffer competition. I don't speak for all of the privates(and neither do you) but I have consistently advocated that PA move up. Watching competitive games is much better than watching blowouts. So try again.
You ridicule the demand for proof of recruiting but you have admitted you don't think PA recruits. And proof is the American way. We don't convict people of crimes, nor should we, without proof. Saying proof is unnecessary is just an admission that you have none. What you believe about O.J. and Capon is irrelevant. If you have no proof of recruiting you are just rumormongering. I know you like making assertions with no supporting facts but that doesn't impress me.
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 12:18:46 pm
As the field narrows and the Season is coming to an end we are once again realizing that the two private schools in the 5A will meet at WMS in what will become an annual tradition. The AAA will never takes steps to address the issue and the public schools will watch from afar knowing they can't afford a title. Sure every few years a school like Harrison (fingers crossed), Wynne, LRM or even Batesville May make it there but it's getting rarer and rarer. Up until the last few years LRCA was on the outside as well, what did they do? They went shopping. There isn't a single thing the public schools can do about it.
Now before anyone with their head in the sand starts in with "it's just Jessie whining and starting drama" bs, let's look at the words of Bob Cook. Cook is widely considered the preeminent authority on high school sports in America. He has authored books on the subject, numerous articles and even testified before Congress. In a 2015 article in Forbes magazine "How to solve the public vs private battle in high school sports" he wrote:
"Private schools have a huge competitive advantage. Their enrollments are not restricted by geographical boundaries, they actively recruit students in order to stay in business.
The playing field is simply not level, and the success factor isn't going to make it so. The time has come for separation"
But what does Bob Cook know? He's a Chicago based Nationally renowned contributor to CNN, MSNBC, Fox Sports and ESPN. He's probably just jealous because Batesville lost. The sad fact is that while kids at public schools work every bit as hard they don't have access to nutritionalist, expensive camps, catered meals or specialized training. In the Arkansas 5A football race the title is like a Supermodel sitting alone at the bar. You can say hi, even offer to buy her a drink but we all know you don't make enough to take her home.
Prediction for 2020? Uh, PA vs LRCA? All is not lost though. Somewhere in Central Arkansas there is a jr high kid dominating, a God gifted stud tearing it up for some public school. He will get a ring one day, sadly it will be with a private school. You can bank on it.
Your points about the advantages private schools have are valid. Private school posters have admitted that over and over.
But your claim that all the best players end up at private schools rings hollow this year. To my knowledge no PA player has a D1 offer this year. I have no idea if any LRCA player has a D1 offer.
The best QB in 5 A plays for Morrilton, a very small 5A school. Arguably the best running back in 5A plays for Harrison. Why didn't those studs end up at PA or LRCA?
Quote from: PA Dad on November 17, 2019, 07:55:57 pm
A couple of points.
First, there is a 30 something page thread on this page about this subject. I'm not sure why we need another one. The public vs private thread is one of the best ever and contains about every observation/argument on this subject.
Second, you say the privates wouldn't stand for being moved up where they would face stiffer competition. I don't speak for all of the privates(and neither do you) but I have consistently advocated that PA move up. Watching competitive games is much better than watching blowouts. So try again.
You ridicule the demand for proof of recruiting but you have admitted you don't think PA recruits. And proof is the American way. We don't convict people of crimes, nor should we, without proof. Saying proof is unnecessary is just an admission that you have none. What you believe about O.J. and Capon is irrelevant. If you have no proof of recruiting you are just rumormongering. I know you like making assertions with no supporting facts but that doesn't impress me.
It's not starting another public/private thread. It was more of a waving of the white flag. It was saying that the decline of football has an ally in Arkansas. The dangling of the carrot in front of public school kids in the 5A classification who's parents don't make enough money. Tough break Johnnie, you want a ring? Shoulda had richer parents. Maybe you should dig a little deeper, there has been motions at AAA meetings to kick up our two private schools. The AAA has always pushed back.
Your whole rumormongering pendulum swings both ways. Can do prove with absolute iron clad irrefutable proof that refs don't throw games? No you cannot, I guess you buy into rumormongering. Can you prove there isn't an invisible Angel that floats around my house controlling my every move? No you can not, you cannot prove a negative. Recruiting is one part of the advantages. I guess by your rationale you cannot prove socio economic advantages either. Money is not money these days, it's simply numbers in cyber space. I guess you can say just because a bank says they have so much wealth that doesn't constitute proof. Numbers can be manipulated. So I guess when it comes to advantages the only proof we have is that private school kids are just smarter, better and work harder. Why are you getting so testy? I was simply pointing out that all these debates are just window dressing, similar to WWE, it means nothing. The public school kids are SOL and it's not going to change.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 17, 2019, 08:10:18 pm
Your points about the advantages private schools have are valid. Private school posters have admitted that over and over.
But your claim that all the best players end up at private schools rings hollow this year. To my knowledge no PA player has a D1 offer this year. I have no idea if any LRCA player has a D1 offer.
The best QB in 5 A plays for Morrilton, a very small 5A school. Arguably the best running back in 5A plays for Harrison. Why didn't those studs end up at PA or LRCA?
From what I can tell the drive every morning to be in Little Rock by 7:30 from Morrilton or Harrison could be brutal. I figure a Husky would have to leave his house by 4am, get home around 10 pm during the season. Had either him or Criswell lived in the Little Rock area in jr high there is a great probability they would have ended up at a private school.
I'm not big on another thread separate from the other(s) but we will let this stand awhile.
However, it will stay civil.
1. Watch the name calling.
2. Watch all race references.
I would encourage reading this thread
https://forums.fearlessfriday.com/index.php?topic=145772.0
I will tell you this thread will merge to that one at some point.
So PA doesn't have a D1 kid , this year, but percentage wise they have to "produce" the most D1 talent of any school in AR.
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 08:23:11 pm
It's not starting another public/private thread. It was more of a waving of the white flag. It was saying that the decline of football has an ally in Arkansas. The dangling of the carrot in front of public school kids in the 5A classification who's parents don't make enough money. Tough break Johnnie, you want a ring? Shoulda had richer parents. Maybe you should dig a little deeper, there has been motions at AAA meetings to kick up our two private schools. The AAA has always pushed back.
Your whole rumormongering pendulum swings both ways. Can do prove with absolute iron clad irrefutable proof that refs don't throw games? No you cannot, I guess you buy into rumormongering. Can you prove there isn't an invisible Angel that floats around my house controlling my every move? No you can not, you cannot prove a negative. Recruiting is one part of the advantages. I guess by your rationale you cannot prove socio economic advantages either. Money is not money these days, it's simply numbers in cyber space. I guess you can say just because a bank says they have so much wealth that doesn't constitute proof. Numbers can be manipulated. So I guess when it comes to advantages the only proof we have is that private school kids are just smarter, better and work harder. Why are you getting so testy? I was simply pointing out that all these debates are just window dressing, similar to WWE, it means nothing. The public school kids are SOL and it's not going to change.
And I say your attitude is defeatist. You're telling public school players that they should just give up because they have no chance against private schools. I absolutely reject that. Catholic is certainly not dominating 7A. Shiloh is good but will be whipped by a public school. Harding will not win 3A. A public school will win 2A.
So, if a private school wins 5A it will be the only private school championship in any classification. If privates are so dominant they would win more than that. Why don't they?
Quote from: PA Dad on November 17, 2019, 08:40:01 pm
And I say your attitude is defeatist. You're telling public school players that they should just give up because they have no chance against private schools. I absolutely reject that. Catholic is certainly not dominating 7A. Shiloh is good but will be whipped by a public school. Harding will not win 3A. A public school will win 2A.
So, if a private school wins 5A it will be the only private school championship in any classification. If privates are so dominant they would win more than that. Why don't they?
They win the sports they choose to win. If
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 08:46:21 pm
They win the sports they choose to win. If
How convenient. You claim publics can't compete with privates in football and then change the argument. So I guess Catholic chooses not to win in football? You really think Shiloh chooses not to win in football? That's a really weak response, It's obvious that your complaint is about PA and LRCA, not privates in general.
Maybe this will explain where I'm coming from. Hopefully it will be left up long enough to be read before this thread and or me are deleted, I'll live. It's funny, I've seen no name calling or disrespect on this thread but oh well.
This Friday Wynne will play LRCA in another step towards the ultimate goal. The thing about Wynne/Batesville is there is a lot of crossing paths. Both schools have friends, relatives or other interactions between the two schools. I do know quite a bit about Wynne. The Jackets started the season with four members of their team being forced to lay face down at gunpoint while out going door to door to raise money for the football team. I wonder if LRCA sends its players out door to door shaking the tin cup? Wynne has many players who walk to and from school in 100 degree heat or 20 degree cold. Wynne has some players who don't have laptops or wi-fi at home. Wynne has a few players who only get meals at school. Does LRCA players have the same experiences? Probably not. Wynne is a pretty typical public school. They will show up Friday night and fight with every fiber of their being until the final whistle. No Wynne players paid thousands of dollars for specialized coaching during the off season and yet their still playing. Yet the AAA and so many people feel that they should have to overcome all those obstacles and compete for the same trophy as a school who has none of those disadvantages. I'm sorry but I have to question the compassion of anyone who feels that's fair.
I almost typed a response, and realized there's nothing I could say that I didn't already say in dozens of posts in the private vs. public thread.
Quote from: The Ref on November 17, 2019, 08:32:26 pm
So PA doesn't have a D1 kid , this year, but percentage wise they have to "produce" the most D1 talent of any school in AR.
Joe Hinmon will more than likely go to a D1 school. Sophomore for PA. Sorry if I botched the spelling of his name.
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 09:04:06 pm
Maybe this will explain where I'm coming from. Hopefully it will be left up long enough to be read before this thread and or me are deleted, I'll live. It's funny, I've seen no name calling or disrespect on this thread but oh well.
This Friday Wynne will play LRCA in another step towards the ultimate goal. The thing about Wynne/Batesville is there is a lot of crossing paths. Both schools have friends, relatives or other interactions between the two schools. I do know quite a bit about Wynne. The Jackets started the season with four members of their team being forced to lay face down at gunpoint while out going door to door to raise money for the football team. I wonder if LRCA sends its players out door to door shaking the tin cup? Wynne has many players who walk to and from school in 100 degree heat or 20 degree cold. Wynne has some players who don't have laptops or wi-fi at home. Wynne has a few players who only get meals at school. Does LRCA players have the same experiences? Probably not. Wynne is a pretty typical public school. They will show up Friday night and fight with every fiber of their being until the final whistle. No Wynne players paid thousands of dollars for specialized coaching during the off season and yet their still playing. Yet the AAA and so many people feel that they should have to overcome all those obstacles and compete for the same trophy as a school who has none of those disadvantages. I'm sorry but I have to question the compassion of anyone who feels that's fair.
You're arguing points every private school poster has conceded. Yes, public school players have many more and greater challenges than private school players have. But the still doesn't explain why the privates are dominant only in 5A. If the advantages of private schools are the difference then privates would be dominant in every classification. That's not so. So there must be another explanation. There is. Coaching.
PA was a doormat before Kelley. PA had every advantage before Kelley that it has now. So why didn't PA dominate then?
Quote from: WTD on November 17, 2019, 09:27:22 pm
Joe Hinmon will more than likely go to a D1 school. Sophomore more PA. Sorry if I botched the spelling of his name.
I agree. He probably will. That doesn't alter the fact that Morrilton currently has more players with D1 offers than PA does.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 17, 2019, 09:33:14 pm
You're arguing points every private school poster has conceded. Yes, public school players have many more and greater challenges than private school players have. But the still doesn't explain why the privates are dominant only in 5A. If the advantages of private schools are the difference then privates would be dominant in every classification. That's not so. So there must be another explanation. There is. Coaching.
PA was a doormat before Kelley. PA had every advantage before Kelley that it has now. So why didn't PA dominate then?
Not going to argue that Private doesn't have advantages over public. BUT have you been to some of these public's stadiums, gymnasiums, etc...Not every public school is created equal either.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 17, 2019, 09:33:14 pm
You're arguing points every private school poster has conceded. Yes, public school players have many more and greater challenges than private school players have. But the still doesn't explain why the privates are dominant only in 5A. If the advantages of private schools are the difference then privates would be dominant in every classification. That's not so. So there must be another explanation. There is. Coaching.
PA was a doormat before Kelley. PA had every advantage before Kelley that it has now. So why didn't PA dominate then?
Baptist basketball does okay. There is some private school who dominates lower class track. Boys and girls soccer has seen privates take over.
Before Kelly in general or head coach? I believe they were very good when Kelly was OC too. Shiloh was fantastic before Gus, I think. Coaching is definitely a major factor - look what LRC coach has done in a few years. But I think it does matter what sport the school wants to emphasize - just like public schools.
Additionally, when you get the right coach to push the kids and make them want to take advantage of those outside resources and opportunities, it translates into success. So I do agree with you - coaching is huge. When you combine it with the other advantages, you get PA and LRC. Baptist basketball. Shiloh and Harding football. But I do think In the private schools, a good coach amplifies everything else and it shows on the field.
Plus, the schools recruit themselves. Not hard to do in the LR area these days.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 17, 2019, 09:33:14 pm
You're arguing points every private school poster has conceded. Yes, public school players have many more and greater challenges than private school players have. But the still doesn't explain why the privates are dominant only in 5A. If the advantages of private schools are the difference then privates would be dominant in every classification. That's not so. So there must be another explanation. There is. Coaching.
PA was a doormat before Kelley. PA had every advantage before Kelley that it has now. So why didn't PA dominate then?
No doubt KK is a great coach, but the dominance is not only in football. I guess all the state championships listed below is from elite level coaching in those sports as well. This number of state championships for a school with a enrollment of about 300 is mind boggling. And the list is not up to date, there is more to add to it.
Girls Tennis (14x): 1980–2013 including 1980, 1987, 1988, 1989, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2010, 2013
Boys Tennis (11x): 1981–2013 including 1981, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2011, 2012, 2013
Baseball (5x): 1993, 1994, 2002, 2003, 2013 5A
Girls Soccer (6x): 2003–2012
Boys Soccer (3x): 2000, 2001, 2007
Football (7x): (2003 3A), (2008 5A), (2011 4A) (2014 5A), (2015 5A), (2016 5A), (2017 5A)
Boys Basketball (2x): 2002, 2003
All Golf Team (5x) : 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006
Quote from: PA Dad on November 17, 2019, 09:35:12 pm
I agree. He probably will. That doesn't alter the fact that Morrilton currently has more players with D1 offers than PA does.
No it doesn't. I agree with you, it's coaching. CAC would have the same advantages as the other privates in Little Rock but they're a sub par 4a team in their conference. When Weaver was at LRCA they had some good teams. Now he's at Russellville, how is Russellville doing this year? Here comes Cohu with LRCA making really good runs coincidence? Maybe not the best point but I agree that it boils down to coaching.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 17, 2019, 09:43:17 pm
Baptist basketball does okay. There is some private school who dominates lower class track. Boys and girls soccer has seen privates take over.
Before Kelly in general or head coach? I believe they were very good when Kelly was OC too. Shiloh was fantastic before Gus, I think. Coaching is definitely a major factor - look what LRC coach has done in a few years. But I think it does matter what sport the school wants to emphasize - just like public schools.
Additionally, when you get the right coach to push the kids and make them want to take advantage of those outside resources and opportunities, it translates into success. So I do agree with you - coaching is huge. When you combine it with the other advantages, you get PA and LRC. Baptist basketball. Shiloh and Harding football. But I do think In the private schools, a good coach amplifies everything else and it shows on the field.
Plus, the schools recruit themselves. Not hard to do in the LR area these days.
I admire a reasoned response. I agree with your points. And I think you are saying that if you couple the private school advantages with a great coach you get PA . That's true.
And, you're right that Kelley was OC when PA became competitive. I think that proves my point. PA was not competitive until it found a great coach.
But this whole discussion is deju vu. It's all on the public vs private thread.
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 08:27:25 pm
From what I can tell the drive every morning to be in Little Rock by 7:30 from Morrilton or Harrison could be brutal. I figure a Husky would have to leave his house by 4am, get home around 10 pm during the season. Had either him or Criswell lived in the Little Rock area in jr high there is a great probability they would have ended up at a private school.
Criswell: His birth family lives in Conway - he lives with Morrilton's offensive coordinator, as did his older brother who also played football and went to AR Tech. His oldest brother lived with Fayetteville's defensive coordinator and now plays in the NFL.
Recruiting or charity? Was Conway robbed of talent?
Come to Harrison Friday night and watch the teams line up. We will be giving up a minimum of 50 pounds on average per man on the line. Bratcher is 5'10". Hindmon is smaller. Our d backs are 160ish. Our middle interior d lineman is 170. We have a big center and a tall defensive end. We don't look like much. But we are well coached. Every year we are well coached with kids who start in the system in the 5th grade.
I have no idea if we can beat Harrison, but if we do, it won't be because of recruiting or advantageous borders.
I hear you Jessie, and I agree on the socioeconomic factors. But, as for PA, I disagree on the others.
Holler if you decide to come over to Harrison so we can say hello. I'll be rooting for Wynne with you.
Quote from: WTD on November 17, 2019, 09:49:13 pm
No it doesn't. I agree with you, it's coaching. CAC would have the same advantages as the other privates in Little Rock but they're a sub par 4a team in their conference. When Weaver was at LRCA they had some good teams. Now he's at Russellville, how is Russellville doing this year? Here comes Cohu with LRCA making really good runs coincidence? Maybe not the best point but I agree that it boils down to coaching.
Get your coach to go to a public school and see if he dominates like he does at PA!
I find it so funny that whenever anyone, not only me, suggest separating the schools or even bump them up some private backers, not all but most, freak out. They spit nails and go on a lethal attack. They simply lose it. It fact in 2006 a parent of a private school student lawyered up and sued the AAA to stop the multiplier. Sued them!
I guess my question is this, what scares them so much about real competition? The fear pushes them to hire lawyers. Seems to me a truly confident program would want to take that success out for a spin. I guess big fish in a little pond is good enough.
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 10:34:25 pm
I find it so funny that whenever anyone, not only me, suggest separating the schools or even bump them up some private backers, not all but most, freak out. They spit nails and go on a lethal attack. They simply lose it. It fact in 2006 a parent of a private school student lawyered up and sued the AAA to stop the multiplier. Sued them!
I guess my question is this, what scares them so much about real competition? The fear pushes them to hire lawyers. Seems to me a truly confident program would want to take that success out for a spin. I guess big fish in a little pond is good enough.
Strawman. No one is freaking out on this side of the debate about playing up. LRCA is a 4A school and PA is a 3A school. No one from either school sued to stay in the smaller classifications.
If fact, I have continuously advocated for a promotion-relegation system for all schools. Something many public school backers in this debate actually have freaked out about.
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 10:34:25 pm
I find it so funny that whenever anyone, not only me, suggest separating the schools or even bump them up some private backers, not all but most, freak out. They spit nails and go on a lethal attack. They simply lose it. It fact in 2006 a parent of a private school student lawyered up and sued the AAA to stop the multiplier. Sued them!
I guess my question is this, what scares them so much about real competition? The fear pushes them to hire lawyers. Seems to me a truly confident program would want to take that success out for a spin. I guess big fish in a little pond is good enough.
Those pesky facts again. Name the private school posters that have freaked out at the suggestion that privates move up. I know Yellowcake opposes it but I don't know of any others who do. Is Yellowcake most?
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 12:18:46 pm
As the field narrows and the Season is coming to an end we are once again realizing that the two private schools in the 5A will meet at WMS in what will become an annual tradition. The AAA will never takes steps to address the issue and the public schools will watch from afar knowing they can't afford a title. Sure every few years a school like Harrison (fingers crossed), Wynne, LRM or even Batesville May make it there but it's getting rarer and rarer. Up until the last few years LRCA was on the outside as well, what did they do? They went shopping. There isn't a single thing the public schools can do about it.
Now before anyone with their head in the sand starts in with "it's just Jessie whining and starting drama" bs, let's look at the words of Bob Cook. Cook is widely considered the preeminent authority on high school sports in America. He has authored books on the subject, numerous articles and even testified before Congress. In a 2015 article in Forbes magazine "How to solve the public vs private battle in high school sports" he wrote:
"Private schools have a huge competitive advantage. Their enrollments are not restricted by geographical boundaries, they actively recruit students in order to stay in business.
The playing field is simply not level, and the success factor isn't going to make it so. The time has come for separation"
But what does Bob Cook know? He's a Chicago based Nationally renowned contributor to CNN, MSNBC, Fox Sports and ESPN. He's probably just jealous because Batesville lost. The sad fact is that while kids at public schools work every bit as hard they don't have access to nutritionalist, expensive camps, catered meals or specialized training. In the Arkansas 5A football race the title is like a Supermodel sitting alone at the bar. You can say hi, even offer to buy her a drink but we all know you don't make enough to take her home.
Prediction for 2020? Uh, PA vs LRCA? All is not lost though. Somewhere in Central Arkansas there is a jr high kid dominating, a God gifted stud tearing it up for some public school. He will get a ring one day, sadly it will be with a private school. You can bank on it.
Great Post !!!! 100% facts. Im all for PA and LRCA having great programs. But it's impossible in a state like Arkansas to have 5A public schools that can play at their level year in and year out. So basicly the beatings will continue. The 60 point thrashings are commonplace among the 30 other 5A Public Schools..
Quote from: PA Dad on November 17, 2019, 08:10:18 pm
Your points about the advantages private schools have are valid. Private school posters have admitted that over and over.
But your claim that all the best players end up at private schools rings hollow this year. To my knowledge no PA player has a D1 offer this year. I have no idea if any LRCA player has a D1 offer.
The best QB in 5 A plays for Morrilton, a very small 5A school. Arguably the best running back in 5A plays for Harrison. Why didn't those studs end up at PA or LRCA?
They didn't have the cash to get inside of the 25 mile requirement perhaps ? LOL ... Both PA and LRCA didn't want to field questions on, How did you get the kids from Harrison and Morrilton on your team ? Did you buy them cars ? Did you get a Double Wide and a job for their parents ? Is there any truth to the rumors that Eric Dickerson and Craig James has joined the PA staff ? ::) ;D :o
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 10:34:25 pm
I find it so funny that whenever anyone, not only me, suggest separating the schools or even bump them up some private backers, not all but most, freak out. They spit nails and go on a lethal attack. They simply lose it. It fact in 2006 a parent of a private school student lawyered up and sued the AAA to stop the multiplier. Sued them!
I guess my question is this, what scares them so much about real competition? The fear pushes them to hire lawyers. Seems to me a truly confident program would want to take that success out for a spin. I guess big fish in a little pond is good enough.
Hmmmm....PA plays out of state superior comp. Because of where the program is and no one in state wants to play them. LRCA is not to that point yet. But have scrimmaged Benton the last two years. Two schools LRCA played to start the year no longer want to play preconf games....hmm wonder why?
I do agree with Jessie on the result of the advantages the Private Schools get. The community of Wynn should have had one or two state championships in the last 5-7 years. LRM should have a title or two. The community of Harrison should be in the midst of a legendary run right now. I grew up in a small community and they still talk about a team that made in to the finals in the 70s. It is a source of community pride that in some cases has been taken away.
The multiplier, while it does help in some cases, obviously doesn't in the case of PA and LRCA. The idea I would like to investigate further in the one Jessie threw out about population in that 25 mile radius. I do think there is something there that could work.
For those of you that hate LRCA, I will say that I believe they will start to come back to the pack in the next couple of years. I attended many LRCA games for years where we were mercy ruled. We were the homecoming game for everyone. The turning point for LRCA seemed to be adding Buck James to the staff. He won at Camden. He is winning at Bryant.
For those of you that hate PA, I don't see them coming back to the pack until KK is gone. For his scheme and attention to detail, he is in the perfect place. His teams would win at any classification in AR.
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 03:45:41 pm
It's the easiest implementation in the world. Do away with the 7A, combine them in the 6A. Drop the bottom schools down to the 5A, move PA/LRCA to the new 6A. You have a very competitive 6A and 5A. You may have a different Champion every year. The fans would come back and excitement would triple. The downside? Our 2 5A private school may face tough games 6 or 7 times a year and they would have to fight every week. No way they stand for that.
This is the exact opposite of the real solution. If you make them play the highest classification, they just become more high profile and step up the recruiting game.
Louisiana hit on the real solution a few years ago, and it's the reason you don't hear about Evangel anymore. That was the equivalent of a 1A school by enrollment competing with the top teams in the nation. So what did Louisiana do, they said you have to play in the class of your enrollment. PERIOD.
Sure, small schools were upset, and they utterly destroyed everyone for about two years, but the top athletes did not want to go play at Bismarck or McCrory every week. After a couple years, the playing field leveled.
That's the true long-term solution.
Quote from: JessieP on November 17, 2019, 10:34:25 pm
I find it so funny that whenever anyone, not only me, suggest separating the schools or even bump them up some private backers, not all but most, freak out. They spit nails and go on a lethal attack. They simply lose it. It fact in 2006 a parent of a private school student lawyered up and sued the AAA to stop the multiplier. Sued them!
I guess my question is this, what scares them so much about real competition? The fear pushes them to hire lawyers. Seems to me a truly confident program would want to take that success out for a spin. I guess big fish in a little pond is good enough.
Harrison has more than twice the students than does PA, so PA is "playing up." I take it that your argument is that PA should play in the highest classification, and I would be fine with that in football. It doesn't make sense in basketball or most other team sports, so it would be hard logistically to work out. But if it could happen I would love to see it. PA would be playing schools which are in some cases 10X its size in the 7A, but it would be fun to see them compete.
Quote from: Hoghead2 on November 18, 2019, 05:00:07 am
They didn't have the cash to get inside of the 25 mile requirement perhaps ? LOL ... Both PA and LRCA didn't want to field questions on, How did you get the kids from Harrison and Morrilton on your team ? Did you buy them cars ? Did you get a Double Wide and a job for their parents ? Is there any truth to the rumors that Eric Dickerson and Craig James has joined the PA staff ? ::) ;D :o
If Criswell wanted to be on LRCA or PA, they would have found a way to get him there. Just like the stud WR who lived in Malvern who went to LA tech years ago, the brothers from Lonoke, and the OL from England, Arkansas.
Quote from: Rayburn on November 18, 2019, 10:22:31 am
This is the exact opposite of the real solution. If you make them play the highest classification, they just become more high profile and step up the recruiting game.
Louisiana hit on the real solution a few years ago, and it's the reason you don't hear about Evangel anymore. That was the equivalent of a 1A school by enrollment competing with the top teams in the nation. So what did Louisiana do, they said you have to play in the class of your enrollment. PERIOD.
Sure, small schools were upset, and they utterly destroyed everyone for about two years, but the top athletes did not want to go play at Bismarck or McCrory every week. After a couple years, the playing field leveled.
That's the true long-term solution.
That is very interesting. PA and LRCA would drop down from 5A but you would eventually gain Robinson....and you guys just think you hate the private schools.
Quote from: Chin Music on November 18, 2019, 10:31:22 am
That is very interesting. PA and LRCA would drop down from 5A but you would eventually gain Robinson....and you guys just think you hate the private schools.
Robinson hasn't won anything in 4A. They have been bounced in the quarterfinals, semifinals, and title game since they have amped up their school choice filling duties.
The easiest solve is a Private school league/playoff. Ya I know not all of them are good but it evens the playing field as far as advantages that no one denies them having.
Quote from: Rayburn on November 18, 2019, 10:22:31 am
This is the exact opposite of the real solution. If you make them play the highest classification, they just become more high profile and step up the recruiting game.
Louisiana hit on the real solution a few years ago, and it's the reason you don't hear about Evangel anymore. That was the equivalent of a 1A school by enrollment competing with the top teams in the nation. So what did Louisiana do, they said you have to play in the class of your enrollment. PERIOD.
Sure, small schools were upset, and they utterly destroyed everyone for about two years, but the top athletes did not want to go play at Bismarck or McCrory every week. After a couple years, the playing field leveled.
That's the true long-term solution.
Except playing in 4A in Arkansas isn't that bad of a thing. The schools here are not 1A schools.
Quote from: Sasquatch71 on November 18, 2019, 10:38:41 am
The easiest solve is a Private school league/playoff. Ya I know not all of them are good but it evens the playing field as far as advantages that no one denies them having.
Horrible idea. For a multitude of reasons.
Quote from: AirWarren on November 18, 2019, 10:30:00 am
If Criswell wanted to be on LRCA or PA, they would have found a way to get him there. Just like the stud WR who lived in Malvern who went to LA tech years ago, the brothers from Lonoke, and the OL from England, Arkansas.
Not sure if the players you mentioned went to PA or LRCA. I know first hand that LRCA turns more athletes away than it accepts...by far. Guess what happens when you win. People want to be a part of it and come from all over. But MANY do not get in for a variety of reasons. It's not a hmmm good athlete...let him/her in approach. There are some studs who i wish were playing at LRCA but are successful at other programs. Why i yawn at the recruiting comments. Not speaking for PA...but if LRCA really wanted to...they could be even better. This is were all those who speak with no proof make me laugh. If only they really knew....it's not recruiting....it's players looking for a spot to be successful.
Is coaches' pay a factor here? Do private schools pay more? Do they have more or the same amount of assistant coaches? Can a coach's pay be supplemented by booster clubs like in college? Obviously higher pay should attract and retain better coaches.
Also, PA and LRCA may have a 25-mile radius, but that 25 miles encompass the highest population density in Arkansas.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 18, 2019, 10:53:58 am
Except playing in 4A in Arkansas isn't that bad of a thing. The schools here are not 1A schools.
Horrible idea. For a multitude of reasons.
Give me some good reasons why this is a horrible idea. Seems to work in MANY other states.
Quote from: StingEm on November 18, 2019, 10:56:11 am
Is coaches' pay a factor here? Do private schools pay more? Do they have more or the same amount of assistant coaches? Can a coach's pay be supplemented by booster clubs like in college? Obviously higher pay should attract and retain better coaches.
Also, PA and LRCA may have a 25-mile radius, but that 25 miles encompass the highest population density in Arkansas.
Yes - coaches' pay is a factor, I assume anyway. We can't know though because private schools aren't required to disclose that information like the public schools are.
Quote from: Sasquatch71 on November 18, 2019, 11:21:15 am
Give me some good reasons why this is a horrible idea. Seems to work in MANY other states.
Please, enlighten us all on what states separate private and public, how they are similar to Arkansas and how it "works."
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 18, 2019, 02:20:05 pm
Please, enlighten us all on what states separate private and public, how they are similar to Arkansas and how it "works."
Texas, California, Louisiana and New Jersey separate them. Now each state allows them to play during the year if each school wants to but they have separate playoffs. California, Texas, Louisiana and New Jersey, nothing works regarding high school in those whacky places. When have you ever heard of a good California or Texas high school football team?
Do you think this is a Arkansas 5A issue only? That some of us are just whining? I beg you, do a quick Google search. People fed up with private schools dominating unfairly is a National issue. My search turned up 12 States voting on bills to separate within the past 18 months. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this is not simply an Arkansas issue.
All of those states are drastically different than Arkansas.
I've done thorough research on the topic and everyone on here knows that I am the biggest critic of private schools in at athletics - I've advocated against them for years. I've researched laws and read, in detail, a comprehensive study on how each state handles it. The bottom line is this: Arkansas doesn't have near enough private schools to shove them in their own class. I would bet that most of the public schools don't necessarily want them out all together - they want the playing feel moderately more even. This isn't a hard fix. And it's not just the private schools- it's the public schools with massive advantages too, socioeconomic factors impact them almost as much. Greenwood is a prime example. Batesville is a pretty good example too.
A success advancement model is the answer. It could be applied in various ways: applicable to only private schools, all schools, only private schools who offer financial aid to Athletes, certain sports, all sports, etc.
The main reason for applying it to private schools only is because all of the other schools have to abide by the same rules as each other (theoretically). They have to disclose all of their information under FOIA. They aren't shielding the public.
This would create so much parity after just a couple of years in all sports.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 18, 2019, 03:05:53 pm
All of those states are drastically different than Arkansas.
I've done thorough research on the topic and everyone on here knows that I am the biggest critic of private schools in at athletics - I've advocated against them for years. I've researched laws and read, in detail, a comprehensive study on how each state handles it. The bottom line is this: Arkansas doesn't have near enough private schools to shove them in their own class. I would bet that most of the public schools don't necessarily want them out all together - they want the playing feel moderately more even. This isn't a hard fix. And it's not just the private schools- it's the public schools with massive advantages too, socioeconomic factors impact them almost as much. Greenwood is a prime example. Batesville is a pretty good example too.
A success advancement model is the answer. It could be applied in various ways: applicable to only private schools, all schools, only private schools who offer financial aid to Athletes, certain sports, all sports, etc.
The main reason for applying it to private schools only is because all of the other schools have to abide by the same rules as each other (theoretically). They have to disclose all of their information under FOIA. They aren't shielding the public.
This would create so much parity after just a couple of years in all sports.
+1
To the extent this thread was started to be different than the 30+ page private vs. public thread, it's devolved into the same arguments from each side.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 18, 2019, 03:05:53 pm
All of those states are drastically different than Arkansas.
I've done thorough research on the topic and everyone on here knows that I am the biggest critic of private schools in at athletics - I've advocated against them for years. I've researched laws and read, in detail, a comprehensive study on how each state handles it. The bottom line is this: Arkansas doesn't have near enough private schools to shove them in their own class. I would bet that most of the public schools don't necessarily want them out all together - they want the playing feel moderately more even. This isn't a hard fix. And it's not just the private schools- it's the public schools with massive advantages too, socioeconomic factors impact them almost as much. Greenwood is a prime example. Batesville is a pretty good example too.
A success advancement model is the answer. It could be applied in various ways: applicable to only private schools, all schools, only private schools who offer financial aid to Athletes, certain sports, all sports, etc.
The main reason for applying it to private schools only is because all of the other schools have to abide by the same rules as each other (theoretically). They have to disclose all of their information under FOIA. They aren't shielding the public.
This would create so much parity after just a couple of years in all sports.
I don't disagree with that. Before we get shut down let's look at why I started the thread. It was not to open another public/private debate, that's pointless. My point was to get honest. We are realistically looking at a decade of 2 teams winning it all in the 5A, maybe longer. Frustration will fester among public school parents and participation will continue to drop. I was simply pointing out that the AAA will never address the issue. The public school kids will just have to sit back and suck on it. In the 5A we have a select few (2) teams that like things as they are, the tail wags the dog.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 18, 2019, 03:43:53 pm
To the extent this thread was started to be different than the 30+ page private vs. public thread, it's devolved into the same arguments from each side.
I agree, I was not advocating change or offering suggestions. I was simply saying the debate is pointless, it is what it is and NOTHING will change it.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 18, 2019, 03:43:53 pm
To the extent this thread was started to be different than the 30+ page private vs. public thread, it's devolved into the same arguments from each side.
again ::)
My favorite part of this is the claim that LRCA has turned away way more athletes than it has accepted.
That's laughable. Completely laughable.
If you claim it true, then prove it.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 18, 2019, 04:11:24 pm
My favorite part of this is the claim that LRCA has turned away way more athletes than it has accepted.
That's laughable. Completely laughable.
If you claim it true, then prove it.
That's ok but it can't come close to my favorite post. He was disputing the recruiting claims by pointing out only 4 starters were recent "adds" what about the other 18 dagnabit? The kicker, HE NAMED 80% OF THEIR OFFENSE. that would be like Sammy Gravano saying "what about the 319 million Americans I didn't kill" Head completely in the sand.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 18, 2019, 04:11:24 pm
My favorite part of this is the claim that LRCA has turned away way more athletes than it has accepted.
That's laughable. Completely laughable.
If you claim it true, then prove it.
Unfortunately it could be proven but would violate confidentiality. I am still laughing at the accusations of recruitment. Put YC...completely true more get turned away. Variety of reasons. We can go have lunch over it anytime you would like.
YC only comes out to root for Wynne and hit on LRCA. Where you been since our bet? ;)
Quote from: JessieP on November 18, 2019, 04:35:26 pm
That's ok but it can't come close to my favorite post. He was disputing the recruiting claims by pointing out only 4 starters were recent "adds" what about the other 18 dagnabit? The kicker, HE NAMED 80% OF THEIR OFFENSE. that would be like Sammy Gravano saying "what about the 319 million Americans I didn't kill" Head completely in the sand.
YC...at least you have a friend in Jessie P...once again....lot of hot air but nothing to back it. As PA Dad has so kindly pointed out.
Quote from: loveallball on November 18, 2019, 05:20:42 pm
Unfortunately it could be proven but would violate confidentiality. I am still laughing at the accusations of recruitment. Put YC...completely true more get turned away. Variety of reasons. We can go have lunch over it anytime you would like.
YC only comes out to root for Wynne and hit on LRCA. Where you been since our bet? ;)
I have been here the whole time. I am sorry if you miss posts that don't directly involve you. And I certainly don't have the time to respond to all the opinions you represent as facts.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 18, 2019, 05:35:27 pm
I have been here the whole time. I am sorry if you miss posts that don't directly involve you. And I certainly don't have the time to respond to all the opinions you represent as facts.
Just let me know when you want to go to lunch.
Quote from: loveallball on November 18, 2019, 05:25:38 pm
YC...at least you have a friend in Jessie P...once again....lot of hot air but nothing to back it. As PA Dad has so kindly pointed out.
Here are some of my unsubstantiated facts. My source? Loveallball, so grain of salt. He plays pretty lose with the truth.
On November 10th, 2019 on the LRCA/CAMDEN FAIRVIEW THREAD he was responding to claims LRCA brings in recent talent by admitting:
"Anyway...I guess you would be referring to
Corey 9th
Chris 7th
Kendall 9th
Akeem 11th"
He pointed out their starting QB, leading receiver, 2nd leading receiver and leading rusher. You take those four away and their a 3rd seed team with 4 losses. Again, that may not constitute truth because it did come from loveallball.
Quote from: JessieP on November 18, 2019, 06:12:54 pm
Here are some of my unsubstantiated facts. My source? Loveallball, so grain of salt. He plays pretty lose with the truth.
On November 10th, 2019 on the LRCA/CAMDEN FAIRVIEW THREAD he was responding to claims LRCA brings in recent talent by admitting:
"Anyway...I guess you would be referring to
Corey 9th
Chris 7th
Kendall 9th
Akeem 11th"
He pointed out their starting QB, leading receiver, 2nd leading receiver and leading rusher. You take those four away and their a 3rd seed team with 4 losses. Again, that may not constitute truth because it did come from loveallball.
Interesting how you keep twisting. 3 of these came after elementary. Which is what happens in LR. Yes the QB came in 11th...from fair... and sat out 365.
Yawn...
Quote from: Chin Music on November 18, 2019, 09:59:02 am
I do agree with Jessie on the result of the advantages the Private Schools get. The community of Wynn should have had one or two state championships in the last 5-7 years. LRM should have a title or two. The community of Harrison should be in the midst of a legendary run right now. I grew up in a small community and they still talk about a team that made in to the finals in the 70s. It is a source of community pride that in some cases has been taken away.
The multiplier, while it does help in some cases, obviously doesn't in the case of PA and LRCA. The idea I would like to investigate further in the one Jessie threw out about population in that 25 mile radius. I do think there is something there that could work.
For those of you that hate LRCA, I will say that I believe they will start to come back to the pack in the next couple of years. I attended many LRCA games for years where we were mercy ruled. We were the homecoming game for everyone. The turning point for LRCA seemed to be adding Buck James to the staff. He won at Camden. He is winning at Bryant.
For those of you that hate PA, I don't see them coming back to the pack until KK is gone. For his scheme and attention to detail, he is in the perfect place. His teams would win at any classification in AR.
Buck James didn't hurt but he is not at all why LRCA is where they are. If anything Bryant is better for Buck having been at LRCA for couple of years not the other way around.
Quote from: JessieP on November 18, 2019, 06:12:54 pm
Here are some of my unsubstantiated facts. My source? Loveallball, so grain of salt. He plays pretty lose with the truth.
On November 10th, 2019 on the LRCA/CAMDEN FAIRVIEW THREAD he was responding to claims LRCA brings in recent talent by admitting:
"Anyway...I guess you would be referring to
Corey 9th
Chris 7th
Kendall 9th
Akeem 11th"
He pointed out their starting QB, leading receiver, 2nd leading receiver and leading rusher. You take those four away and their a 3rd seed team with 4 losses. Again, that may not constitute truth because it did come from loveallball.
There is only one high school transfer in that list, and he sat out his junior year, per the rules. And he is not a D1 prospect.
Try again. Where is your proof that LRCA recruits athletes away from other high schools?
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 18, 2019, 04:11:24 pm
My favorite part of this is the claim that LRCA has turned away way more athletes than it has accepted.
That's laughable. Completely laughable.
If you claim it true, then prove it.
It is true. We don't owe you or anyone else anything. I can tell you for a fact it's true though.
Quote from: sevenof400 on November 17, 2019, 02:45:34 pm
Rattler43 would like to have some words with you, Jessie.....as would AlmaTrackster. :)
Sorry that I'm late to the party. I'm a believer that my teams prepare to defeat any other teams whether they are public or private. We prepare with the knowledge that they may have advantages but such is life. We have competed while at or near the bottom of our classification in enrollment numbers for most of the past 15 years. We are a low socioeconomic and rural community. We liken it unto life itself. It is what you make of it. Yes, sometimes we do everything right and still don't win the state championships but nothing stops our drive for excellence. If a parent wants to take their child to Greenwood or Booneville where they win at football most of the time, we don't like it but we understand that winning is their top priority. I agree with a number of statements from each side. Private schools do possess some advantages. But so do public schools like GW and Bentonville. Not all private schools have advantages: Subiaco, Union Christian. Coaching has much to do with success yet I believe you must have the Jimmies and Joes as they say. Too many variables involved in success for me to worry about a few private schools dominating. The AAA has addressed it in the past and will again should enough administrators believe it is a problem. But as for me, I'll stick to teaching excellent work ethic, high expectations, do your best at anything you attempt on a daily basis, and then accept where the chips fall whether it is against larger schools, smaller schools, public schools, or private schools. Just my short, simple, rural take on this. Oh, I'll talk 2A girls Track and Field any time! Now, back to your regularly scheduled arguments... I'm going back to my 2A boards and Track and Field threads. See you over there AT! WPS. Lady Razorbacks cross country!!
Quote from: RazorDad on November 18, 2019, 06:56:40 pm
There is only one high school transfer in that list, and he sat out his junior year, per the rules. And he is not a D1 prospect.
Try again. Where is your proof that LRCA recruits athletes away from other high schools?
Plus Cory Platte moved in from Georgia.
Quote from: RazorDad on November 18, 2019, 06:56:40 pm
There is only one high school transfer in that list, and he sat out his junior year, per the rules. And he is not a D1 prospect.
Try again. Where is your proof that LRCA recruits athletes away from other high schools?
I guess your Mensa meeting ended early tonight. There is only 1 transfer, that 1 is my proof. Btw, there are 3, 9th grade is considered high school. 9th graders can play on the varsity team, they are called freshman. So reword your reply to say "only three were recruited, where's your proof" I've actually never seen that before, someone list a player then ask where's your proof? Interesting tact. That would be like getting pulled over in Harrison and telling the trooper "sure, I was going 70 in a 25 zone but where's your proof I was speeding"
Quote from: JessieP on November 18, 2019, 07:13:41 pm
I guess your Mensa meeting ended early tonight. There is only 1 transfer, that 1 is my proof. Btw, there are 3, 9th grade is considered high school. 9th graders can play on the varsity team, they are called freshman. So reword your reply to say "only three were recruited, where's your proof" I've actually never seen that before, someone list a player then ask where's your proof? Interesting tact. That would be like getting pulled over in Harrison and telling the trooper "sure, I was going 70 in a 25 zone but where's your proof I was speeding"
Once again witty...but yawn
Quote from: PA Dad on November 17, 2019, 08:40:01 pm
And I say your attitude is defeatist. You're telling public school players that they should just give up because they have no chance against private schools. I absolutely reject that. Catholic is certainly not dominating 7A. Shiloh is good but will be whipped by a public school. Harding will not win 3A. A public school will win 2A.
So, if a private school wins 5A it will be the only private school championship in any classification. If privates are so dominant they would win more than that. Why don't they?
Don't be so sure... but the likelihood isn't near the same as PA vs LRCA in finals.
Quote from: RATTLER43 on November 18, 2019, 07:06:28 pm
Sorry that I'm late to the party. I'm a believer that my teams prepare to defeat any other teams whether they are public or private. We prepare with the knowledge that they may have advantages but such is life. We have competed while at or near the bottom of our classification in enrollment numbers for most of the past 15 years. We are a low socioeconomic and rural community. We liken it unto life itself. It is what you make of it. Yes, sometimes we do everything right and still don't win the state championships but nothing stops our drive for excellence. If a parent wants to take their child to Greenwood or Booneville where they win at football most of the time, we don't like it but we understand that winning is their top priority. I agree with a number of statements from each side. Private schools do possess some advantages. But so do public schools like GW and Bentonville. Not all private schools have advantages: Subiaco, Union Christian. Coaching has much to do with success yet I believe you must have the Jimmies and Joes as they say. Too many variables involved in success for me to worry about a few private schools dominating. The AAA has addressed it in the past and will again should enough administrators believe it is a problem. But as for me, I'll stick to teaching excellent work ethic, high expectations, do your best at anything you attempt on a daily basis, and then accept where the chips fall whether it is against larger schools, smaller schools, public schools, or private schools. Just my short, simple, rural take on this. Oh, I'll talk 2A girls Track and Field any time! Now, back to your regularly scheduled arguments... I'm going back to my 2A boards and Track and Field threads. See you over there AT! WPS. Lady Razorbacks cross country!!
I'm not entirely sure what the school is called - Trinity something maybe, but when I did my research on financial aid and what not, I saw that they excelled in track and I believe cross country. I also noticed those were the sports who had the most students on financial aid. Not saying they cheat, just that there seemed to be a correlation. Heck I can't tell you where they are from or what big towns are close by - I wasn't that interested. But you know a lot about track! Any idea what teams I'm talking about?
Quote from: RATTLER43 on November 18, 2019, 07:06:28 pm
Sorry that I'm late to the party. I'm a believer that my teams prepare to defeat any other teams whether they are public or private. We prepare with the knowledge that they may have advantages but such is life. We have competed while at or near the bottom of our classification in enrollment numbers for most of the past 15 years. We are a low socioeconomic and rural community. We liken it unto life itself. It is what you make of it. Yes, sometimes we do everything right and still don't win the state championships but nothing stops our drive for excellence. If a parent wants to take their child to Greenwood or Booneville where they win at football most of the time, we don't like it but we understand that winning is their top priority. I agree with a number of statements from each side. Private schools do possess some advantages. But so do public schools like GW and Bentonville. Not all private schools have advantages: Subiaco, Union Christian. Coaching has much to do with success yet I believe you must have the Jimmies and Joes as they say. Too many variables involved in success for me to worry about a few private schools dominating. The AAA has addressed it in the past and will again should enough administrators believe it is a problem. But as for me, I'll stick to teaching excellent work ethic, high expectations, do your best at anything you attempt on a daily basis, and then accept where the chips fall whether it is against larger schools, smaller schools, public schools, or private schools. Just my short, simple, rural take on this. Oh, I'll talk 2A girls Track and Field any time! Now, back to your regularly scheduled arguments... I'm going back to my 2A boards and Track and Field threads. See you over there AT! WPS. Lady Razorbacks cross country!!
What a breath of fresh air. Great outlook on life and sports.
+1.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 18, 2019, 07:39:20 pm
What a breath of fresh air. Great outlook on life and sports.
+1.
Just imagine what he could do if he coached at a private school! 😁
Quote from: RATTLER43 on November 18, 2019, 07:06:28 pm
Sorry that I'm late to the party. I'm a believer that my teams prepare to defeat any other teams whether they are public or private. We prepare with the knowledge that they may have advantages but such is life. We have competed while at or near the bottom of our classification in enrollment numbers for most of the past 15 years. We are a low socioeconomic and rural community. We liken it unto life itself. It is what you make of it. Yes, sometimes we do everything right and still don't win the state championships but nothing stops our drive for excellence. If a parent wants to take their child to Greenwood or Booneville where they win at football most of the time, we don't like it but we understand that winning is their top priority. I agree with a number of statements from each side. Private schools do possess some advantages. But so do public schools like GW and Bentonville. Not all private schools have advantages: Subiaco, Union Christian. Coaching has much to do with success yet I believe you must have the Jimmies and Joes as they say. Too many variables involved in success for me to worry about a few private schools dominating. The AAA has addressed it in the past and will again should enough administrators believe it is a problem. But as for me, I'll stick to teaching excellent work ethic, high expectations, do your best at anything you attempt on a daily basis, and then accept where the chips fall whether it is against larger schools, smaller schools, public schools, or private schools. Just my short, simple, rural take on this. Oh, I'll talk 2A girls Track and Field any time! Now, back to your regularly scheduled arguments... I'm going back to my 2A boards and Track and Field threads. See you over there AT! WPS. Lady Razorbacks cross country!!
+1
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 18, 2019, 07:40:41 pm
Just imagine what he could do if he coached at a private school! 😁
I have no idea who he/she is but I suspect he/she does well.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 18, 2019, 07:41:54 pm
I have no idea who he/she is but I suspect he/she does well.
He coaches at Magazine, I believe, and I also think you are correct in that he does well.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 18, 2019, 07:37:37 pm
I'm not entirely sure what the school is called - Trinity something maybe, but when I did my research on financial aid and what not, I saw that they excelled in track and I believe cross country. I also noticed those were the sports who had the most students on financial aid. Not saying they cheat, just that there seemed to be a correlation. Heck I can't tell you where they are from or what big towns are close by - I wasn't that interested. But you know a lot about track! Any idea what teams I'm talking about?
Yes. Trinity Christian near Texarkana. We battled many times. They have had athletes from both sides of the border. They are the small-school model for excellence in T&F. National leaders in pole vault per age group over the past few years. We defeated them for the Indoor team title last year. I believe they hold the advantage of being near a large town like Texarkana. They had a great coach. Jeff built a great program. But I don't believe any cheating occurred. They were horrible at 8-man football this year...if that means anything.
Quote from: RATTLER43 on November 18, 2019, 07:49:52 pm
Yes. Trinity Christian near Texarkana. We battled many times. They have had athletes from both sides of the border. They are the small-school model for excellence in T&F. National leaders in pole vault per age group over the past few years. We defeated them for the Indoor team title last year. I believe they hold the advantage of being near a large town like Texarkana. They had a great coach. Jeff built a great program. But I don't believe any cheating occurred. They were horrible at 8-man football this year...if that means anything.
That's it! And I'm sure they didn't recruit - athletes who excelled in track probably wanted to attend and I'm sure they had plenty qualify for financial aid. Just odd that the other programs didn't have as high of a ratio, but it would all be speculation on my end as to why. Sometimes coincidences don't mean anything. I'm way too unfamiliar with them to suggest much.
Quote from: RATTLER43 on November 18, 2019, 07:49:52 pm
Yes. Trinity Christian near Texarkana. We battled many times. They have had athletes from both sides of the border. They are the small-school model for excellence in T&F. National leaders in pole vault per age group over the past few years. We defeated them for the Indoor team title last year. I believe they hold the advantage of being near a large town like Texarkana. They had a great coach. Jeff built a great program. But I don't believe any cheating occurred. They were horrible at 8-man football this year...if that means anything.
TC has had a few good runs in baseball, but I haven't heard much about them there in a while.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 18, 2019, 07:53:15 pm
That's it! And I'm sure they didn't recruit - athletes who excelled in track probably wanted to attend and I'm sure they had plenty qualify for financial aid. Just odd that the other programs didn't have as high of a ratio, but it would all be speculation on my end as to why. Sometimes coincidences don't mean anything. I'm way too unfamiliar with them to suggest much.
What?? Someone wanting to go to a school to be good at something? Say it isn't so JP say it isn't so!!!
jesse seems jelous of PA all u have to do to beat PA is run zone-biltz type stuff and bear 46 type pressures
I'm not anti JP. For frame of reference, part of my intense burning desire to win came from a decade of Ft. Smith Christian (private) beating us at the conference level and their sustained level at state under the tutelage of Frank Cluck and Robin Finley. But Mineral Springs (public) was also dominant in the 90s so my feelings and possible jealousy of FSC were more due to being in the same conference rather than them being private. But I must admit that I despised losing to them. But overcoming them and establishing our dominance was a great part of the journey. Not sure if you'll overcome PA or LRC, but it is a worthy goal and will be a great experience should you accomplish it. We didn't know if we would ever overtake those two small-school powers. Either way, your kids will be better for the work, effort, and sacrifice required to even make a run at it. Be your best you. Time for me to move back into my lane.
Quote from: loveallball on November 18, 2019, 08:02:26 pm
What?? Someone wanting to go to a school to be good at something? Say it isn't so JP say it isn't so!!!
Ah, the ever shifting response. A seamless pivot from "it never happens" to "what's wrong with it"? We made a brief stroll through "helping the kid out of a horrible situation". Hang on folks, any minute now we'll get "God spoke to us and said to go forth and edify thou passing game"
Quote from: JessieP on November 18, 2019, 08:38:59 pm
Ah, the ever shifting response. A seamless pivot from "it never happens" to "what's wrong with it"? We made a brief stroll through "helping the kid out of a horrible situation". Hang on folks, any minute now we'll get "God spoke to us and said to go forth and edify thou passing game"
Jessie P's endless...let me put words in other peoples mouths. Yawn....
Quote from: loveallball on November 18, 2019, 08:42:42 pm
Jessie P's endless...let me put words in other peoples mouths. Yawn....
Awful lot of yawns, seems like you respond to a lot of my boring post. I also find a great many post boring, I just don't post "yawn", I simply don't post, see the difference there? My responding would be iron clad proof I don't find it boring (yawn). Let me say again, it's an honor to mean so much to you.
I am going to answer the original post. No I don't think you are capable of being honest.
The honest answer to all the speculation of the public/private debate in regards to the advantages over the public schools is easy, it's Money. It's painfully obvious that the AAA is partial to the private schools for whatever reason, I won't get into it on here, it has been spoke about on other threads. Money makes the world go round, and it also helps out in building a successful football program. I would assume, since I brought up the AAA, this thread will soon be locked, so sorry in advance guys.
Quote from: Yellowcake on November 18, 2019, 04:11:24 pm
My favorite part of this is the claim that LRCA has turned away way more athletes than it has accepted.
That's laughable. Completely laughable.
If you claim it true, then prove it.
T- you know not what you speak of...
Quote from: j-mann raider 02 on November 18, 2019, 08:07:40 pm
jesse seems jelous of PA all u have to do to beat PA is run zone-biltz type stuff and bear 46 type pressures
Is everyone just going to whistle past the Nettleton poster saying, all you have to do to beat PA is...even though, they've never come close? Or even played?
Quote from: The_Pioneer on November 19, 2019, 07:00:50 pm
Is everyone just going to whistle past the Nettleton poster saying, all you have to do to beat PA is...even though, they've never come close? Or even played?
we played them 2 years ago it was basiccy a meary rule game in their favor to beat u have to
1 get the onsides and score a td 9/10 times
2 mix u your convages and make their QB see things that is not there
3 get at least 2 turnovers
4 get a lead and try to bleed 4-5 min of clock while u score a td
Simple to get a win over PA, Recover the opening kick, Score, Recover the onside kick, score, Recover the onside kick, Score,
Oh wait, that's how PA wins.
Quote from: JacketFan on November 18, 2019, 10:01:42 pm
The honest answer to all the speculation of the public/private debate in regards to the advantages over the public schools is easy, it's Money. It's painfully obvious that the AAA is partial to the private schools for whatever reason, I won't get into it on here, it has been spoke about on other threads. Money makes the world go round, and it also helps out in building a successful football program. I would assume, since I brought up the AAA, this thread will soon be locked, so sorry in advance guys.
Influence is not limited to the AAA. The tentacles are far reaching.
Quote from: The_Pioneer on November 19, 2019, 07:00:50 pm
Is everyone just going to whistle past the Nettleton poster saying, all you have to do to beat PA is...even though, they've never come close? Or even played?
PA defeated Nettleton in 2017 semi finals, 50-28.
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 20, 2019, 08:07:58 am
JacketFan wrote... "It's painfully obvious that the AAA is partial to the private schools for whatever reason,..."
I beg to differ. Ask the guys that played football at Baptist Prep in the past 7 or 8 years if they feel like the AAA is partial to them. They were 7 kids over the limit and got bumped up to 4A in 2012. I watched that program decline to the point people were asking why they had a football program. It was obvious those 22 to 25 kids that played each year had no business going up against the 4A schools with 70+ players, indoor facilities, turf fields, twice as many coaches, etc, etc. I had kids playing, I experienced it first hand.
Deaf ears Outlaw deaf ears.
What really matters, is, what will these "state champions" do after graduation? Public or private, they're all teenagers just peeking into the real world.
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 20, 2019, 08:07:58 am
JacketFan wrote... "It's painfully obvious that the AAA is partial to the private schools for whatever reason,..."
I beg to differ. Ask the guys that played football at Baptist Prep in the past 7 or 8 years if they feel like the AAA is partial to them. They were 7 kids over the limit and got bumped up to 4A in 2012. I watched that program decline to the point people were asking why they had a football program. It was obvious those 22 to 25 kids that played each year had no business going up against the 4A schools with 70+ players, indoor facilities, turf fields, twice as many coaches, etc, etc. (They averaged just under 2 wins per year during that time) I had kids playing, I experienced it first hand.
Well there's your answer. You were
over the limit to play in 3A, which is why you got bumped to 4A. You should have tried to get
under the limit.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/d3mlE7uhX8KFgEmY/giphy.gif)
I heard it worked out okay in basketball for you guys though. Is that true?
Quote from: HeberFan on November 20, 2019, 09:10:28 am
What really matters, is, what will these "state champions" do after graduation? Public or private, they're all teenagers just peeking into the real world.
I don't know how much truth there is to this, but from what I can tell about society these days, they will stay living with their parents and make Tik Toks, wear fake eye glasses, change their names to something like "Declan", and complain about how hard life is and how they shouldn't have to work all of the time.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 20, 2019, 10:31:04 am
I don't know how much truth there is to this, but from what I can tell about society these days, they will stay living with their parents and make Tik Toks, wear fake eye glasses, change their names to something like "Declan", and complain about how hard life is and how they shouldn't have to work all of the time.
Then those kids weren't very good football players or certainly team members. Even very talented kids don't accomplish much without hard work and dedication.
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 20, 2019, 10:59:36 am
I think we all know that what is required to be competitive in football, does not even compare to what it requires to be competitive in the other sports.
I agree - but were you over or under the cut off number?
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 20, 2019, 11:29:48 am
I clearly stated that they we were over. I also agree that it has to be managed if a school wants to be competitive in FOOTBALL. However, my point was that it did not feel like the AAA was partial, or cared, in any way.
You should have used some more of your financial assistance to get more football kids. The ratio was way high in favor of basketball. Priorities man. Priorities.
To your point OldOutlaw, a year or two after the private school multiplier went into effect I had a conversation with one of the coaches at Baptist Prep regarding football. He stated that he had never had as many season and career ending injuries (in his coaching career) as he had in the previous football season. The kids are made to suffer just because their parents choose to send them to a private school for a great education. I don't know the answer but making a 130lb kid line up against a 300lb kid isn't it!!
I have been reading this board for a year or two and have noticed there are a ton of un-truths regarding private schools....or at least with regard to the one I have some knowledge. From my perspective the AAA has a disdain for the private schools and try to make things as hard as they can on them....and yet they compete and some win with the deck staked against them. I am sure many would bring up the socio-economic advantages that "all" private schools have over others. I would submit that the private schools do more with less.....there's a curve ball for ya!
They have to! Most of the time the team they line up against has more size, speed and overall talent. "How could that be, when we know they recruit and that came from a friend who knows a guy who's neighbor said they were contacted when his son was in third grade to come to (insert private school)???" Facts are missing!
Please don't misunderstand, I do acknowledge there is a huge advantage to going to private school, or at least the one my children have attended.....its called EDUCATION. They are prepared for college and more prepared for life in general. They are expected/required to abide by an honor code and if you don't, you don't get "D Hall", you get to go to another school. Which brings us to another word - DISCIPLINE. Which is the ONLY way the 130lb kid stays on the field with the 300lb kid!!
Thanks for letting me vent!
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 20, 2019, 08:07:58 am
JacketFan wrote... "It's painfully obvious that the AAA is partial to the private schools for whatever reason,..."
I beg to differ. Ask the guys that played football at Baptist Prep in the past 7 or 8 years if they feel like the AAA is partial to them. They were 7 kids over the limit and got bumped up to 4A in 2012. I watched that program decline to the point people were asking why they had a football program. It was obvious those 22 to 25 kids that played each year had no business going up against the 4A schools with 70+ players, indoor facilities, turf fields, twice as many coaches, etc, etc. (They averaged just under 2 wins per year during that time) I had kids playing, I experienced it first hand.
Everyone remembers when LRCA and PA were getting throttled year in and year out, and then all of the sudden the pendulum started to swing in their favor. Dare I ask, what did they do differently? OldOutlaw, have Baptist Prep call PA, and LRCA, and see if they can give BP the secret matrix to winning with small numbers.
Who was the O lineman from England, AR?
Quote from: PA Parent on November 20, 2019, 04:35:40 pm
To your point OldOutlaw, a year or two after the private school multiplier went into effect I had a conversation with one of the coaches at Baptist Prep regarding football. He stated that he had never had as many season and career ending injuries (in his coaching career) as he had in the previous football season. The kids are made to suffer just because their parents choose to send them to a private school for a great education. I don't know the answer but making a 130lb kid line up against a 300lb kid isn't it!!
I have been reading this board for a year or two and have noticed there are a ton of un-truths regarding private schools....or at least with regard to the one I have some knowledge. From my perspective the AAA has a disdain for the private schools and try to make things as hard as they can on them....and yet they compete and some win with the deck staked against them. I am sure many would bring up the socio-economic advantages that "all" private schools have over others. I would submit that the private schools do more with less.....there's a curve ball for ya!
They have to! Most of the time the team they line up against has more size, speed and overall talent. "How could that be, when we know they recruit and that came from a friend who knows a guy who's neighbor said they were contacted when his son was in third grade to come to (insert private school)???" Facts are missing!
Please don't misunderstand, I do acknowledge there is a huge advantage to going to private school, or at least the one my children have attended.....its called EDUCATION. They are prepared for college and more prepared for life in general. Preparation is a shared responsibility. In loco parentis My brother attended public school and hit perfect score on ACT. My daughters hit high ACT scores. Public. All my nieces and nephews-same. All are successful and happy young adults. Parenting plus school, if they choose to attend school, equals outcome. My parents made sure. And we all had excellent discipline in our lives. I will agree that the "average " student differs in those areas, but not so much because of the school but because of all influences. Just my take. They are expected/required to abide by an honor code and if you don't, you don't get "D Hall", you get to go to another school. Which brings us to another word - DISCIPLINE. Which is the ONLY way the 130lb kid stays on the field with the 300lb kid!!
Thanks for letting me vent!
Quote from: JacketFan on November 20, 2019, 04:46:32 pm
Everyone remembers when LRCA and PA were getting throttled year in and year out, and then all of the sudden the pendulum started to swing in their favor. Dare I ask, what did they do differently? OldOutlaw, have Baptist Prep call PA, and LRCA, and see if they can give BP the secret matrix to winning with small numbers.
Maybe Catholic, CAC, Episcopal, Subiaco Academy and Conway Christian can call PA and LRCA and see how all the private schools have a big advantage at football.
Quote from: RATTLER43 on November 20, 2019, 05:00:23 pm
The difference maker regardless of your school choice is in the Rattler response.....Parents and discipline
Agreed.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 20, 2019, 05:02:02 pm
Maybe Catholic, CAC, Episcopal, Subiaco Academy and Conway Christian can call PA and LRCA and see how all the private schools have a big advantage at football.
They absolutely should if they want to dominate at football. I guess they just choose not too for whatever reason. They could easily do what PA, and LRCA does if they chose too.
Quote from: PA Parent on November 20, 2019, 04:35:40 pm
To your point OldOutlaw, a year or two after the private school multiplier went into effect I had a conversation with one of the coaches at Baptist Prep regarding football. He stated that he had never had as many season and career ending injuries (in his coaching career) as he had in the previous football season. The kids are made to suffer just because their parents choose to send them to a private school for a great education. I don't know the answer but making a 130lb kid line up against a 300lb kid isn't it!!
I have been reading this board for a year or two and have noticed there are a ton of un-truths regarding private schools....or at least with regard to the one I have some knowledge. From my perspective the AAA has a disdain for the private schools and try to make things as hard as they can on them....and yet they compete and some win with the deck staked against them. I am sure many would bring up the socio-economic advantages that "all" private schools have over others. I would submit that the private schools do more with less.....there's a curve ball for ya!
They have to! Most of the time the team they line up against has more size, speed and overall talent. "How could that be, when we know they recruit and that came from a friend who knows a guy who's neighbor said they were contacted when his son was in third grade to come to (insert private school)???" Facts are missing!
Please don't misunderstand, I do acknowledge there is a huge advantage to going to private school, or at least the one my children have attended.....its called EDUCATION. They are prepared for college and more prepared for life in general. They are expected/required to abide by an honor code and if you don't, you don't get "D Hall", you get to go to another school. Which brings us to another word - DISCIPLINE. Which is the ONLY way the 130lb kid stays on the field with the 300lb kid!!
Thanks for letting me vent!
That gives the debate whole new perspective. The private schools who have a monopoly in winning in the 5A are actually the underdog, who knew? And the AAA is against them? If you say so. Hearing that leads me to believe that the moon landing was in fact faked, 9/11 was an inside job and Elvis is alive and well slinging burgers in Michigan. Quite the eye opening post.
By far the biggest gut punch is when you stand back and look at things from a woke point of view you stand in amazement that a tiny picked on school has produced more 130 pound D1 scholarship football players then any other 5A team. Heck, you can tune in any Sunday and watch one of those poor 130 pounders racing up and down the field in the NFL.
I for one want to apologize for kicking sand in the face of those poor 130 pound weaklings who's only reason for attending private schools is education. Never mind analytics, complicated offensive schemes or out of the box thinking. KK should win a Nobel Peace Prize for putting together such a dynasty comprised of 130 pound kids. Let's say a silent prayer asking protection this Friday for our private school teams as they face Harrison and Wynne and their rosters of fat (illegitimate children)
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 20, 2019, 05:02:02 pm
Maybe Catholic, CAC, Episcopal, Subiaco Academy and Conway Christian can call PA and LRCA and see how all the private schools have a big advantage at football.
When did those schools get moved to the 5A? I'd counter by saying look at Mater Dei, De La Salle and St John Bosco. They are private school football powerhouses and every bit as relevant to this discussion as the 5 schools you listed.
I am also way late to the discussion, but one point I haven't seen is placing the blame on the public school system in LR. Is this not the real problem? There is a reason Bryant, Conway, Cabot, NLR, the private schools and charter schools have not only grown, but have the parental/community support. Folks that have the means have left the LR public school system because it has been failing the kids for years.
IMO, PA and LRCA have zero advantages over any of the schools mentioned above or any other of the elite athletic programs in the state. If this were simply a private school problem, wouldn't it be more widespread? We don't have the private school issue here in NWA. Yes, Shiloh has a fantastic athletic program, but they are competing for enrollment with many of the top public school districts in the state.
Just my two cents, some will agree and others will disagree. School choice is a good thing for Arkansans, what is not good is the largest city in the state having failing public schools. Fix the public schools and you get enrollment, parental support and community support. Athletic success is a good bi-product of these things.
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 20, 2019, 05:57:37 pm
The voice of reason...
No no no that means that there is no excuse to lean on so this couldn't possibly be true. There has to be some conspiracy at the highest level that explains all of this or it would come down to accountability and parental involvement. We can't possibly suggest that as the advantage. It has to be recruiting or money or something that nobody else could possibly compete with or the excuse is invalid.
Quote from: Razorback Red on November 20, 2019, 05:50:34 pm
I am also way late to the discussion, but one point I haven't seen is placing the blame on the public school system in LR. Is this not the real problem? There is a reason Bryant, Conway, Cabot, NLR, the private schools and charter schools have not only grown, but have the parental/community support. Folks that have the means have left the LR public school system because it has been failing the kids for years.
IMO, PA and LRCA have zero advantages over any of the schools mentioned above or any other of the elite athletic programs in the state. If this were simply a private school problem, wouldn't it be more widespread? We don't have the private school issue here in NWA. Yes, Shiloh has a fantastic athletic program, but they are competing for enrollment with many of the top public school districts in the state.
Just my two cents, some will agree and others will disagree. School choice is a good thing for Arkansans, what is not good is the largest city in the state having failing public schools. Fix the public schools and you get enrollment, parental support and community support. Athletic success is a good bi-product of these things.
You serious, Clark?
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 20, 2019, 07:13:46 pm
You serious, Clark?
I have always found you to be highly intelligent but you misread the statement. They weren't just saying they have zero advantages they said they are at a disadvantage. Private schools are disadvantaged, let that sink in.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 20, 2019, 07:13:46 pm
You serious, Clark?
Yes, please tell me where I am wrong. What advantages do private schools have over a Bryant, NLR, Cabot or Conway? Maybe there is something I am missing? I'll use Bentonville as my example because that's who I know the most about. They pay top dollar for Coaches, have many assts, huge booster support and can use their facilities and overall academic success as a recruiting tool to attract families. Is that not the same thing you are saying the private schools do?
Look at Bryant. Hired a top-tier HC, already had some of the other advantages. Now look at them.
Jessie, do you think you're overreacting to a great LRC 2 year run. I mean if PA doesn't turn over the ball 5 times in last year's state championship game (which gets over looked a lot considering Justice's performance) are we even talking about this?
I can see PA frustration, although I'm not completely on board with wanting PA to move up yet, but I just don't think LRC has made me think "Oh boy, no one is going to beat this team". That said, Cohu is a heck of a coach.
Quote from: Almatrackster on November 20, 2019, 08:04:59 pm
Jessie, do you think you're overreacting to a great LRC 2 year run. I mean if PA doesn't turn over the ball 5 times in last year's state championship game (which gets over looked a lot considering Justice's performance) are we even talking about this?
I can see PA frustration, although I'm not completely on board with wanting PA to move up yet, but I just don't think LRC has made me think "Oh boy, no one is going to beat this team". That said, Cohu is a heck of a coach.
I would give you that point had LRCA not had a JH clone in the hopper. They are showing signs of "we'll do whatever it takes" mindset. I don't mean "work hard" exclusively. I can promise you LRCA will have a couple star performers leading the way in the next couple years who aren't enrolled in the school today.
Quote from: JessieP on November 20, 2019, 08:21:30 pm
I would give you that point had LRCA not had a JH clone in the hopper. They are showing signs of "we'll do whatever it takes" mindset. I don't mean "work hard" exclusively. I can promise you LRCA will have a couple star performers leading the way in the next couple years who aren't enrolled in the school today.
Are they dominating in the JH ranks? Don't keep up with those outside of the local River Valley ones.
Perhaps Cohu has found the formula Kelley did.
Quote from: Almatrackster on November 20, 2019, 08:27:23 pm
Are they dominating in the JH ranks? Don't keep up with those outside of the local River Valley ones.
Perhaps Cohu has found the formula Kelley did.
I would consider the jr high team as enrolled in the school. I mean they will have transfer players that will fill specific needs. This past summer another poster questioned the LRCA backers about their new QB. The responded with "no idea what your talking about", "that's just rumors" or "maybe you know something we don't". Guess what? He was correct. Was that just an incredible coincidence?
Quote from: Razorback Red on November 20, 2019, 05:50:34 pm
I am also way late to the discussion, but one point I haven't seen is placing the blame on the public school system in LR. Is this not the real problem? There is a reason Bryant, Conway, Cabot, NLR, the private schools and charter schools have not only grown, but have the parental/community support. Folks that have the means have left the LR public school system because it has been failing the kids for years.
IMO, PA and LRCA have zero advantages over any of the schools mentioned above or any other of the elite athletic programs in the state. If this were simply a private school problem, wouldn't it be more widespread? We don't have the private school issue here in NWA. Yes, Shiloh has a fantastic athletic program, but they are competing for enrollment with many of the top public school districts in the state.
Just my two cents, some will agree and others will disagree. School choice is a good thing for Arkansans, what is not good is the largest city in the state having failing public schools. Fix the public schools and you get enrollment, parental support and community support. Athletic success is a good bi-product of these things.
Well stated
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 20, 2019, 07:13:46 pm
You serious, Clark?
I was going to stay out of this discussion because my views are posted in the public vs private thread and the arguments get tiring when they're just repeated. But, Razorback Red raises an interesting point that I don't remember being discussed before.
The fact that his point was dismissed without any consideration of the merits is unfortunate. It is indictative of closed minds which refuse to consider any alternative analysis. That's unfortunate.
Quote from: JessieP on November 20, 2019, 07:18:43 pm
I have always found you to be highly intelligent but you misread the statement. They weren't just saying they have zero advantages they said they are at a disadvantage. Private schools are disadvantaged, let that sink in.
Fact check. Please cut and paste where he says private schools are at a disadvantage.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 20, 2019, 09:27:37 pm
Fact check. Please cut and paste where he says private schools are ar a disadvantage.
I missed that one. It was in fact PA Parent who claimed private schools had a disadvantage. My apologies, it wasn't RazorbackRed.
Quote from: JessieP on November 20, 2019, 09:33:12 pm
I missed that one. It was in fact PA Parent who claimed private schools had a disadvantage. My apologies, it wasn't RazorbackRed.
No problem. When I'm perfect (my wife tells me I'm almost there but I have to try harder) I'll jump all over you for making a mistake.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 20, 2019, 09:38:29 pm
No problem. When I'm perfect (my wife tells me I'm almost there but I have to try harder) I'll jump all over you for making a mistake.
You too? Hey, can I get some free advice? I married a southern girl thinking I was getting a "Yes dear" "whatever you say darlin" type. Instead I get "are you going to sit around all weekend watching football and eating" "no one thinks your funny" type. Misrepresentation, do I have a case?
Quote from: PA Dad on November 20, 2019, 09:09:09 pm
I was going to stay out of this discussion because my views are posted in the public vs private thread and the arguments get tiring when they're just repeated. But, Razorback Red raises an interesting point that I don't remember being discussed before.
The fact that his point was dismissed without any consideration of the merits is unfortunate. It is indictative of closed minds which refuse to consider any alternative analysis. That's unfortunate.
Not dismissed necessarily, just didn't feel like it warranted more than a quick response. But we all know private schools have advantages even over the public schools that are well off. Now, the gap narrows, without a doubt, but there are things that won't change.
I've read that Bentonville pays their coaches a lot of money - relative to what? Public schools? We wouldn't know how it compares to KK or any other private school because they don't disclose this information, yet they are governed in sports by a public entity subject to FOIA.
Bentonville allows the general public to enroll in their school and participate in athletics, I would assume so anyway. Meanwhile, I'm fairly certain that PA and LRC choose who enrolls. This selective enrollment can be used to help excel in sports, although I'm sure not everyone will agree.
I would predict, and I may be wrong, that more kids at PA or LRC have more resources and opportunities than the kids at Bentonville. There is a reason why PA has produced more d-1 athletes than any other school in the state in recent years. They're 3A and produce as much as the largest schools in the state. Coaching? Maybe. But it's combined with much more.
You may not have the issue right now, but SC went through an absolute tear until some public schools decided to not play them anymore. Coincidentally, the spotlight was on SC and they started declining. They're just now coming back towards the top. To say this isn't a widespread issue just isn't true. This isn't just in football. This isn't just in central Arkansas. And isn't just in Arkansas.
Do I think that kids are choosing private schools instead of the lR school district? Of course! I've always said that my children would go to one of the two schools being discussed in west Little Rock if I lived there. However, it doesn't change my stance on any of this.
At the very least, I think there should be more transparency as to how many kids enrolled in athletics have the financial aid, coaching salaries and sport expenditures should be made public. It would at least show they only spend as much or less than public schools right- so why shield the info?
Quote from: JessieP on November 20, 2019, 09:44:04 pm
You too? Hey, can I get some free advice? I married a southern girl thinking I was getting a "Yes dear" "whatever you say darlin" type. Instead I get "are you going to sit around all weekend watching football and eating" "no one thinks your funny" type. Misrepresentation, do I have a case?
Haven't I already said I find your wife more credible than you?
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 20, 2019, 09:47:57 pm
Not dismissed necessarily, just didn't feel like it warranted more than a quick response. But we all know private schools have advantages even over the public schools that are well off. Now, the gap narrows, without a doubt, but there are things that won't change.
I've read that Bentonville pays their coaches a lot of money - relative to what? Public schools? We wouldn't know how it compares to KK or any other private school because they don't disclose this information, yet they are governed in sports by a public entity subject to FOIA.
Bentonville allows the general public to enroll in their school and participate in athletics, I would assume so anyway. Meanwhile, I'm fairly certain that PA and LRC choose who enrolls. This selective enrollment can be used to help excel in sports, although I'm sure not everyone will agree.
I would predict, and I may be wrong, that more kids at PA or LRC have more resources and opportunities than the kids at Bentonville. There is a reason why PA has produced more d-1 athletes than any other school in the state in recent years. They're 3A and produce as much as the largest schools in the state. Coaching? Maybe. But it's combined with much more.
You may not have the issue right now, but SC went through an absolute tear until some public schools decided to not play them anymore. Coincidentally, the spotlight was on SC and they started declining. They're just now coming back towards the top. To say this isn't a widespread issue just isn't true. This isn't just in football. This isn't just in central Arkansas. And isn't just in Arkansas.
Do I think that kids are choosing private schools instead of the lR school district? Of course! I've always said that my children would go to one of the two schools being discussed in west Little Rock if I lived there. However, it doesn't change my stance on any of this.
At the very least, I think there should be more transparency as to how many kids enrolled in athletics have the financial aid, coaching salaries and sport expenditures should be made public. It would at least show they only spend as much or less than public schools right- so why shield the info?
I don't think that really addresses RR's point. Would PA and LRCA be dominant, even with the socioeconomic advantages, if the public schools in LR were as good as those in NWA?
I think he makes a good point. I think PA's rise coincided with the decline of LR's public schools. If Central was still a dominant team they might well attract players that go to private schools now. Just dismissing the argument without a reasoned analysis is what I disagree with.
And I think the success of the NWA public schools adds credence to RR's position. No private schools outside of LR are dominant.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 20, 2019, 09:58:19 pm
I don't think that really addresses RR's point. Would PA and LRCA be dominant, even with the socioeconomic advantages, if the public schools in LR were as good as those in NWA?
I think he makes a good point. I think PA's rise coincided with the decline of LR's public schools. If Central was still a dominant team they might well attract players that go to private schools now. Just dismissing the argument without a reasoned analysis is what I disagree with.
And I think the success of the NWA public schools adds credence to RR's position. No private schools outside of LR are dominant.
I don't have it in me tonight to verify - but I think Shiloh was dominant from 2005-10. They went on a tear and they were surrounded by good public schools. The public schools in NWA were dominant too, so yes I think they would be just as dominant. Speculation on my part, I guess. We won't ever know though because the LR school district has a loooong way to go.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 20, 2019, 09:47:57 pm
Not dismissed necessarily, just didn't feel like it warranted more than a quick response. But we all know private schools have advantages even over the public schools that are well off. Now, the gap narrows, without a doubt, but there are things that won't change.
I've read that Bentonville pays their coaches a lot of money - relative to what? Public schools? We wouldn't know how it compares to KK or any other private school because they don't disclose this information, yet they are governed in sports by a public entity subject to FOIA.
Bentonville allows the general public to enroll in their school and participate in athletics, I would assume so anyway. Meanwhile, I'm fairly certain that PA and LRC choose who enrolls. This selective enrollment can be used to help excel in sports, although I'm sure not everyone will agree.
I would predict, and I may be wrong, that more kids at PA or LRC have more resources and opportunities than the kids at Bentonville. There is a reason why PA has produced more d-1 athletes than any other school in the state in recent years. They're 3A and produce as much as the largest schools in the state. Coaching? Maybe. But it's combined with much more.
You may not have the issue right now, but SC went through an absolute tear until some public schools decided to not play them anymore. Coincidentally, the spotlight was on SC and they started declining. They're just now coming back towards the top. To say this isn't a widespread issue just isn't true. This isn't just in football. This isn't just in central Arkansas. And isn't just in Arkansas.
Do I think that kids are choosing private schools instead of the lR school district? Of course! I've always said that my children would go to one of the two schools being discussed in west Little Rock if I lived there. However, it doesn't change my stance on any of this.
At the very least, I think there should be more transparency as to how many kids enrolled in athletics have the financial aid, coaching salaries and sport expenditures should be made public. It would at least show they only spend as much or less than public schools right- so why shield the info?
Very good post MDX.
Quote from: JessieP on November 20, 2019, 05:15:19 pm
That gives the debate whole new perspective. The private schools who have a monopoly in winning in the 5A are actually the underdog, who knew? And the AAA is against them? If you say so. Hearing that leads me to believe that the moon landing was in fact faked, 9/11 was an inside job and Elvis is alive and well slinging burgers in Michigan. Quite the eye opening post.
By far the biggest gut punch is when you stand back and look at things from a woke point of view you stand in amazement that a tiny picked on school has produced more 130 pound D1 scholarship football players then any other 5A team. Heck, you can tune in any Sunday and watch one of those poor 130 pounders racing up and down the field in the NFL.
I for one want to apologize for kicking sand in the face of those poor 130 pound weaklings who's only reason for attending private schools is education. Never mind analytics, complicated offensive schemes or out of the box thinking. KK should win a Nobel Peace Prize for putting together such a dynasty comprised of 130 pound kids. Let's say a silent prayer asking protection this Friday for our private school teams as they face Harrison and Wynne and their rosters of fat (illegitimate children)
Wow JessieP, You really hate private schools don't you?!!! I don't know where to begin......How about here, other than Hunter Henry, who are "all of these NFL Players" we are watching on Sundays that happen to be from Little Rock or attended private schools in Arkansas? Have you actually seen a player roster for PA and compared it to any other team rooster from their schedule this year? It is very obvious you have not. And based on your little tirade not only have I touched a nerve I have learned that you like to spin what people actually say. That is a shame as I thought we could have intelligent discourse based on FACTS....evidently not. You also shoe your true colors when you show no regard for the kids that are placed at a higher risk for injury based on a flawed system. Public/Private, this should make no difference when it come to the safety of the kids that play this great game!
"Let's say a silent prayer asking protection this Friday for our private school teams as they face Harrison and Wynne and their roosters of fat (illegitimate children)"
Those were your exact words.....Really??? I am pretty sure you and I will not talk again. You may want to look over the statement you had to agree in order to post on this board?! Hope you enjoy the rest of the playoffs.
Quote from: PA Parent on November 20, 2019, 10:11:48 pm
Quote from: JessieP on November 20, 2019, 05:15:19 pm
That gives the debate whole new perspective. The private schools who have a monopoly in winning in the 5A are actually the underdog, who knew? And the AAA is against them? If you say so. Hearing that leads me to believe that the moon landing was in fact faked, 9/11 was an inside job and Elvis is alive and well slinging burgers in Michigan. Quite the eye opening post.
By far the biggest gut punch is when you stand back and look at things from a woke point of view you stand in amazement that a tiny picked on school has produced more 130 pound D1 scholarship football players then any other 5A team. Heck, you can tune in any Sunday and watch one of those poor 130 pounders racing up and down the field in the NFL.
I for one want to apologize for kicking sand in the face of those poor 130 pound weaklings who's only reason for attending private schools is education. Never mind analytics, complicated offensive schemes or out of the box thinking. KK should win a Nobel Peace Prize for putting together such a dynasty comprised of 130 pound kids. Let's say a silent prayer asking protection this Friday for our private school teams as they face Harrison and Wynne and their rosters of fat (illegitimate children)
Wow JessieP, You really hate private schools don't you?!!! I don't know where to begin......How about here, other than Hunter Henry, who are "all of these NFL Players" we are watching on Sundays that happen to be from Little Rock or attended private schools in Arkansas? Have you actually seen a player roster for PA and compared it to any other team rooster from their schedule this year? It is very obvious you have not. And based on your little tirade not only have I touched a nerve I have learned that you like to spin what people actually say. That is a shame as I thought we could have intelligent discourse based on FACTS....evidently not. You also shoe your true colors when you show no regard for the kids that are placed at a higher risk for injury based on a flawed system. Public/Private, this should make no difference when it come to the safety of the kids that play this great game!
"Let's say a silent prayer asking protection this Friday for our private school teams as they face Harrison and Wynne and their roosters of fat (illegitimate children)"
Those were your exact words.....Really??? I am pretty sure you and I will not talk again. You may want to look over the statement you had to agree in order to post on this board?! Hope you enjoy the rest of the playoffs.
I know us folk down here in Wynne are country as cornbread, but I am pretty sure we don't have any roosters on our team. :D
Quote from: JessieP on November 20, 2019, 05:37:25 pm
When did those schools get moved to the 5A? I'd counter by saying look at Mater Dei, De La Salle and St John Bosco. They are private school football powerhouses and every bit as relevant to this discussion as the 5 schools you listed.
Is your point that only 5A private schools have an advantage, but not 2A, 3A, 4A and 7A?
Quote from: JessieP on November 20, 2019, 08:21:30 pm
I would give you that point had LRCA not had a JH clone in the hopper. They are showing signs of "we'll do whatever it takes" mindset. I don't mean "work hard" exclusively. I can promise you LRCA will have a couple star performers leading the way in the next couple years who aren't enrolled in the school today.
Probably so Jessie P...they are called in coming freshman....wash, rinse, repeat...Yawn
I would be interested in a breakdown of how many Arkansas kids are D1 football players and what High School they went too. I think it would be an interesting to find out and might add a ton of info for this debate.
Quote from: Simba on November 20, 2019, 11:33:49 pm
I would be interested in a breakdown of how many Arkansas kids are D1 football players and what High School they went too. I think it would be an interesting to find out and might add a ton of info for this debate.
247 Sports has the information you are looking for. Compile a report for us.
Quote from: RATTLER43 on November 18, 2019, 07:49:52 pm
Yes. Trinity Christian near Texarkana. We battled many times. They have had athletes from both sides of the border. They are the small-school model for excellence in T&F. National leaders in pole vault per age group over the past few years. We defeated them for the Indoor team title last year. I believe they hold the advantage of being near a large town like Texarkana. They had a great coach. Jeff built a great program. But I don't believe any cheating occurred. They were horrible at 8-man football this year...if that means anything.
Near Texarkana ??? Trinity Christian is in TEXARKANA, Arkansas ! It's right there on I-30 and Four States Blvd. acroos the street from the Raceway Gas Station. They have kids from both sides of the cities and surrounding Arkaansas and Texas towns. them and Taylor arkansas had some classic baseball games over the years. Good school. There's 6 High Schools in the Texarkana area.
Texas High
Pleasant Grove
Liberty Eylau
Arkansas High
Genoa Central
Trinity Christian
That is as near as it gets! ;) ;D
Quote from: loveallball on November 20, 2019, 10:47:47 pm
Probably so Jessie P...they are called in coming freshman....wash, rinse, repeat...Yawn
I think I addressed that point. I would not consider kids at LRCA jr high as transfers. LRCA does not limit their choices to their own pantry, all of Central Arkansas is their supermarket.
On a side note I notice that you're still having problems with this yawn thing. You really should consult your dr. You may have undiagnosed narcolepsy. It's a condition that could lead to some serious health issues including, but not limited to, lack of focus, irritability and mental dullness. It's worth looking into, they can do amazing things these days through pharmaceuticals.
Quote from: JessieP on November 20, 2019, 08:33:38 pm
I would consider the jr high team as enrolled in the school. I mean they will have transfer players that will fill specific needs. This past summer another poster questioned the LRCA backers about their new QB. The responded with "no idea what your talking about", "that's just rumors" or "maybe you know something we don't". Guess what? He was correct. Was that just an incredible coincidence?
Wait that is wrong. Nobody knew who the QB was until the 4th game. Get your lies in order. I told you way back in the summer there was a kid on campus that was a lot like JH. He didn't earn the starting nod and was in a QB battle for several weeks. So get your lies straight. I would say facts but you are painfully short of facts in your rumormongering.
Quote from: JacketFan on November 20, 2019, 10:16:35 pm
I know us folk down here in Wynne are country as cornbread, but I am pretty sure we don't have any roosters on our team. :D
Ooops! Guess I should check spell check before posting? HA! I will do better JacketFan!
Thanks to Rattler43 and OldOutlaw for doing the research on NFL Players from our state! What a great list! Now we are talking facts! I think everyone would agree that's the only way any progress is made on this issue within our state?!
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 21, 2019, 09:33:53 am
119 Arkansas high schools have produced 281 NFL players. 4 of those schools were private, and they have produced 6 of the 281.
CAC - DJ Williams & Joe Adams
Pulaski Academy - Hunter Henry & Jonathan Luigs
Catholic - Jake Bequette
Subiaco Academy - John Adams
Man those private schools have such an advantage
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 08:44:59 am
I think I addressed that point. I would not consider kids at LRCA jr high as transfers. LRCA does not limit their choices to their own pantry, all of Central Arkansas is their supermarket.
On a side note I notice that you're still having problems with this yawn thing. You really should consult your dr. You may have undiagnosed narcolepsy. It's a condition that could lead to some serious health issues including, but not limited to, lack of focus, irritability and mental dullness. It's worth looking into, they can do amazing things these days through pharmaceuticals.
Still waiting on that list of "chosen" players. Do do do do....do do do....
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 21, 2019, 09:51:53 am
Central, Charles Clay, TE, Bills
Fayetteville, Brandon Allen, QB, Jaguars
Gosnell, Jermey Parnell, OT, Jaguars
Jacksonville, Demetrius Harris, TE, Chiefs
Jacksonville, Clinton McDonald, DT, Buccaneers
North Little Rock, Martrell Spaight, OLB, Redskins
Northside, Brett Goode, LS, Packers
Pine Bluff, David Johnson, TE, Steelers
Pulaski Academy, Hunter Henry, TE, Chargers
Star City, Cedric Thornton, DT, Cowboys
Strong, Kenneth Dixon, RB, Ravens
Warren, Chris Gragg, TE, Bills
Warren, Jarius Wright, WR, Vikings
Wynne, DeAngelo Williams, RB, Steelers
2016 active NFL players from Arkansas high schools. One is from a private school.
It's great that you're taking the time to compile NFL players - would you mind producing the list of D-1 players from PA please? I'll stand by. Thanks in advance.
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 21, 2019, 10:03:19 am
Please see my edit above... Thanks.
I appreciate it.
I am sure there will be more D1 players represented by public schools in the overall numbers, but we have to keep in mind that there are only 11 or so private schools who compete in football, and there is only one large one. The rest are 4A and below.
I would bet that Warren has produced quite a few d1 players and I know some of the larger schools have. Last I did the numbers, PA was averaging about 4-6 on every single football team (1-2 per grade, grades 10-12). Outstanding for a 3A school with subpar athletes.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 21, 2019, 10:06:43 am
I appreciate it.
I am sure there will be more D1 players represented by public schools in the overall numbers, but we have to keep in mind that there are only 11 or so private schools who compete in football, and there is only one large one. The rest are 4A and below.
I would bet that Warren has produced quite a few d1 players and I know some of the larger schools have. Last I did the numbers, PA was averaging about 4-6 on every single football team (1-2 per grade, grades 10-12). Outstanding for a 3A school with subpar athletes.
Is this d1 "scholarship" players or are you including walk-ons as well? And what years did you compile your "last I did the numbers" from? Thanks for the info.
Quote from: Coach Wood, RHS on November 21, 2019, 10:16:56 am
Is this d1 "scholarship" players or are you including walk-ons as well? And what years did you compile your "last I did the numbers" from? Thanks for the info.
I believe it included walk ons - just D1 players in general. It was in that mega thread so it's probably a couple of years old? Not really sure to be honest. I don't have near as much free time now as I did those days!
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 21, 2019, 10:23:10 am
I believe it included walk ons - just D1 players in general. It was in that mega thread so it's probably a couple of years old? Not really sure to be honest. I don't have near as much free time now as I did those days!
Ok. Thank you.
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 21, 2019, 09:51:53 am
Central, Charles Clay, TE, Bills
Fayetteville, Brandon Allen, QB, Jaguars
Gosnell, Jermey Parnell, OT, Jaguars
Jacksonville, Demetrius Harris, TE, Chiefs
Jacksonville, Clinton McDonald, DT, Buccaneers
North Little Rock, Martrell Spaight, OLB, Redskins
Northside, Brett Goode, LS, Packers
Pine Bluff, David Johnson, TE, Steelers
Pulaski Academy, Hunter Henry, TE, Chargers
Star City, Cedric Thornton, DT, Cowboys
Strong, Kenneth Dixon, RB, Ravens
Warren, Chris Gragg, TE, Bills
Warren, Jarius Wright, WR, Vikings
Wynne, DeAngelo Williams, RB, Steelers
2016 active NFL players from Arkansas high schools. One is from a private school.
I will pull together the stats on D1 athletes from AR high schools, but it will take some time. NFL stats are easier to get. I suspect the tendency for public to overshadow private will remain intact. Of course there are many more public schools so we expect them to have more players, but the private representation in these stats is far below their percentage of participants, so far.
Damarea Crockett is in the NFL now from that super lrc team in 15 that lost in semis to PA
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 21, 2019, 12:28:28 am
Jerry Franklin
High school: Marion
NFL team: Chicago Bears
Tyrell Johnson
High school: Rison
NFL team: Detroit Lions
Corey Williams
High school: Harmony Grove (Camden)
NFL team: Detroit Lions
Brett Goode
High school: Northside (Fort Smith)
NFL team: Green Bay Packers
D.J. Williams
High school: Central Arkansas Christian (North Little Rock)
NFL team: Green Bay Packers
Greg Childs
High school: Warren
NFL team: Minnesota Vikings
Kevin Williams
High school: Fordyce
NFL team: Minnesota Vikings
Jarius Wright
High school: Warren
NFL team: Minnesota Vikings
Joe Adams
High school: Central Arkansas Christian (North Little Rock)
NFL team: Carolina Panthers
DeAngelo Williams
High school: Wynne
NFL team: Carolina Panthers
Jermey Parnell
High school: Gosnell
NFL team: Dallas Cowboys
Cedric Thornton
High school: Star City
NFL team: Philadelphia Eagles
Clinton McDonald
High school: Jacksonville
NFL team: Seattle Seahawks
Jake Bequette
High school: Catholic (Little Rock)
NFL team: New England Patriots
Jamaal Anderson
High school: Parkview (Little Rock)
NFL team: Cincinnati Bengals
David Johnson
High school: Pine Bluff
NFL team: Pittsburgh Steelers
Mitch Petrus
High school: Carlisle
NFL team: Tennessee Titans
Damian Williams
High school: Springdale
NFL team: Tennessee Titans
Charles Clay
High school: Central (Little Rock)
NFL team: Miami Dolphins
Nate Garner
High school: Robinson (Little Rock)
NFL team: Miami Dolphins
Mike Brisiel
High school: Fayetteville
NFL team: Oakland Raiders
Darren McFadden
High school: North Little Rock Oak Grove
NFL team: Oakland Raiders
Junior Hemingway
High school: Conway
NFL team: Kansas City Chiefs
Peyton Hillis
High school: Conway
NFL team: Kansas City Chiefs
Here's a list from 2012-13 of NFL players from AR high schools. 3 of the 24 are from private schools, 2 from CAC and 1 from Catholic.
Kendall Donnerson
High School: Maumelle
NFL Team: Raiders
Some of these retorts are the epitome of specious rationale. The private schools in the 5A do not have a competitive advantage because the majority of Arkansans in the NFL attended public schools. Ok Skippy, if you say so.
One of the most covered National stories in media is the homeless crisis in California. The CDC has called it an actual humanitarian crisis, there have been reports of Typhus and even the plague been contracted in some encampments. Is a breeding ground for human trafficking, drug abuse/dealing and a massive drain on resources. Now let's apply the FF mindset to that issue. Most estimates place the number of homeless at 140,000, yet the states population is 40,000,000. 40 million vs 140,000? There is no problem.
Good Lord, those NFL numbers may very well be the dumbest counter argument ever.
Another thing I don't get is why is everyone making such a big deal about Tua Tagovailoa's injury? There are approximately 206 bones in the human body, he broke 1, big deal.
NFL numbers are a null and void argument. I am pretty sure we can all agree it isn't 1 player that wins it is a collection of players. 11 at a time. Good grief.
Using the number of active players in the NFL as a gauge of talent coming out of public or private schools in Arkansas does not tell whether a certain type of school has a advantage over the other. A lot of posters on here that follow high school regularly for the last 40 years can agree with me on this if they are honest people. We all know that some of the greatest high school players of all time never even played college ball, much less NFL. High school football is about having a coach that can build a team around what he has available, and the coach must have the uncanny ability to take a kid with mediocre talent, and coach him up to a level he never thought he could play at. Take Wynne for example, I think we can all agree that they are a fairly successful program. How many kids from Wynne has went onto play college football at any level? The answer is, not very many. The reason why, the coaches play with what they have, and coach them up to win games. So yes, every few years or so, a incredible football talent comes along, so feel blessed when they do.
Quote from: Sasquatch71 on November 21, 2019, 01:14:46 pm
NFL numbers are a null and void argument. I am pretty sure we can all agree it isn't 1 player that wins it is a collection of players. 11 at a time. Good grief.
Thank you. They threw that number out at some of us like a brick. Like I previously said, dumbest point ever!
Quote from: JacketFan on November 21, 2019, 01:15:51 pm
Using the number of active players in the NFL as a gauge of talent coming out of public or private schools in Arkansas does not tell whether a certain type of school has a advantage over the other. A lot of posters on here that follow high school regularly for the last 40 years can agree with me on this if they are honest people. We all know that some of the greatest high school players of all time never even played college ball, much less NFL. High school football is about having a coach that can build a team around what he has available, and the coach must have the uncanny ability to take a kid with mediocre talent, and coach him up to a level he never thought he could play at. Take Wynne for example, I think we can all agree that they are a fairly successful program. How many kids from Wynne has went onto play college football at any level? The answer is, not very many. The reason why, the coaches play with what they have, and coach them up to win games. So yes, every few years or so, a incredible football talent comes along, so feel blessed when they do.
+1
Quote from: OldOutlaw on November 21, 2019, 02:36:18 pm
I never said the NFL or D1 numbers were a perfect correlation to which schools had advantages or disadvantages. However, when I started looking for DATA to add some clarity to this debate. The D1 numbers are hard to gather, and the NFL numbers are readily available. It is a starting point not the smoking gun to end the debate. Call it dumb if you will, doesn't bother me. However, it's interesting that when real numbers start getting posted, the data suddenly doesn't matter. It's really a subjective thing that we should just know in our heart.
The dumb comment was not directed at you but her rather the poster who sarcastically said "man those private schools have such an advantage".
I would be interested to see how many of those NFL players won a state championship while in high school?
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 02:43:06 pm
The dumb comment was not directed at you but her rather the poster who sarcastically said "man those private schools have such an advantage".
I would be interested to see how many of those NFL players won a state championship while in high school?
Yep and JPs made about 5 post because of those 8 words. Sit UBU sit...good dog.
Quote from: loveallball on November 21, 2019, 02:51:34 pm
Yep and JPs made about 5 post because of those 8 words. Sit UBU sit...good dog.
Are you getting that narcolepsy until control? You're coming up on shopping season, got to restock those shelves. Hall, Parkview, Central and Fair hide you freshmen, LRCA is soon to be kicking the tires. Can't get around that annoying graduation.
For the record, I think private schools have an advantage over public schools in football in many respects. Especially in Little Rock. In my opinion it's not for the reason most frequently argued (recruiting), but rather private schools have more resources and generally speaking the families have more resources which provide a leg up. Just using the last two PA QB's as an example, they lived their whole life at PA and benefitted from outside coaching, excellent school coaching, outside trainers, etc. (To my knowledge) they never had a summer job to make ends meet, etc., they concentrated on football. This no doubt helped these last 6 PA teams and many other schools don't have that advantage.
But the fact remains that about 3.5 private schools are very good in football statewide (giving Shiloh a .5 because they are off and on. Even LRCA was very bad just a few years back as well), so it's not a matter of opening a private school and ordering the championship rings.
Having never lived it, I can only imagine the frustration of living in a smaller town and having a good team, and then going to PA for a playoff game and getting blown out. It would be very frustrating.
I don't have the solution for the problem.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 21, 2019, 03:43:39 pm
For the record, I think private schools have an advantage over public schools in football in many respects. Especially in Little Rock. In my opinion it's not for the reason most frequently argued (recruiting), but rather private schools have more resources and generally speaking the families have more resources which provide a leg up. Just using the last two PA QB's as an example, they lived their whole life at PA and benefitted from outside coaching, excellent school coaching, outside trainers, etc. (To my knowledge) they never had a summer job to make ends meet, etc., they concentrated on football. This no doubt helped these last 6 PA teams and many other schools don't have that advantage.
But the fact remains that about 3.5 private schools are very good in football statewide (giving Shiloh a .5 because they are off and on. Even LRCA was very bad just a few years back as well), so it's not a matter of opening a private school and ordering the championship rings.
Having never lived it, I can only imagine the frustration of living in a smaller town and having a good team, and then going to PA for a playoff game and getting blown out. It would be very frustrating.
I don't have the solution for the problem.
Very honest and logical post. Good luck to all teams tomorrow, and try to stay dry. Go Jackets!
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 21, 2019, 03:43:39 pm
For the record, I think private schools have an advantage over public schools in football in many respects. Especially in Little Rock. In my opinion it's not for the reason most frequently argued (recruiting), but rather private schools have more resources and generally speaking the families have more resources which provide a leg up. Just using the last two PA QB's as an example, they lived their whole life at PA and benefitted from outside coaching, excellent school coaching, outside trainers, etc. (To my knowledge) they never had a summer job to make ends meet, etc., they concentrated on football. This no doubt helped these last 6 PA teams and many other schools don't have that advantage.
But the fact remains that about 3.5 private schools are very good in football statewide (giving Shiloh a .5 because they are off and on. Even LRCA was very bad just a few years back as well), so it's not a matter of opening a private school and ordering the championship rings.
Having never lived it, I can only imagine the frustration of living in a smaller town and having a good team, and then going to PA for a playoff game and getting blown out. It would be very frustrating.
I don't have the solution for the problem.
Shoot. Reluctantly I have to agree with red devil on this one. That's unfortunate. When you think of a solution that everyone agrees with, will you please let us know? Thanks.
So much energy spent on this topic.
We might have figured out, nuclear fusion or world peace, instead.
Quote from: JacketFan on November 21, 2019, 03:53:44 pm
Very honest and logical post. Good luck to all teams tomorrow, and try to stay dry. Go Jackets!
+1
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 21, 2019, 03:43:39 pm
For the record, I think private schools have an advantage over public schools in football in many respects. Especially in Little Rock. In my opinion it's not for the reason most frequently argued (recruiting), but rather private schools have more resources and generally speaking the families have more resources which provide a leg up. Just using the last two PA QB's as an example, they lived their whole life at PA and benefitted from outside coaching, excellent school coaching, outside trainers, etc. (To my knowledge) they never had a summer job to make ends meet, etc., they concentrated on football. This no doubt helped these last 6 PA teams and many other schools don't have that advantage.
But the fact remains that about 3.5 private schools are very good in football statewide (giving Shiloh a .5 because they are off and on. Even LRCA was very bad just a few years back as well), so it's not a matter of opening a private school and ordering the championship rings.
Having never lived it, I can only imagine the frustration of living in a smaller town and having a good team, and then going to PA for a playoff game and getting blown out. It would be very frustrating.
I don't have the solution for the problem.
Thank you for a very honest non condescending post. It is so refreshing to hear someone essentially saying yes, they have advantages but I don't know the remedy. What drives people crazy is these moronic rationales as to why it is fair. I don't blame PA or LRCA for feeding at the trough, I blame the AAA. I actually like PA, I like the way they play, I like their fans and I like the way KK demands his players conduct themselves. I do despise LRCA, I honestly believe if you pulled back the right shrub in front of one of the buildings you find 666 (only people who've seen The Omen will get that)
Quote from: HeberFan on November 21, 2019, 03:58:46 pm
So much energy spent on this topic.
We might have figured out, nuclear fusion or world peace, instead.
Nuclear fusion was figured out in the 1930's by Hans Bethe. Try and keep up.
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 04:05:32 pm
Thank you for a very honest non condescending post. It is so refreshing to hear someone essentially saying yes, they have advantages but I don't know the remedy. What drives people crazy is these moronic rationales as to why it is fair. I don't blame PA or LRCA for feeding at the trough, I blame the AAA. I actually like PA, I like the way they play, I like their fans and I like the way KK demands his players conduct themselves. I do despise LRCA, I honestly believe if you pulled back the right shrub in front of one of the buildings you find 666 (only people who've seen The Omen will get that)
I hope people have not to rely on the movie to get the 666 reference, especially those raised in the Bible Belt! ;)
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 04:05:32 pm
Thank you for a very honest non condescending post. It is so refreshing to hear someone essentially saying yes, they have advantages but I don't know the remedy. What drives people crazy is these moronic rationales as to why it is fair. I don't blame PA or LRCA for feeding at the trough, I blame the AAA. I actually like PA, I like the way they play, I like their fans and I like the way KK demands his players conduct themselves. I do despise LRCA, I honestly believe if you pulled back the right shrub in front of one of the buildings you find 666 (only people who've seen The Omen will get that)
Is it funny to anyone else that Jessie P is making a comment about a non condescending post? I mean aren't all of his??
Did PA dad get mad at you and you are trying to make up? So cute. Condescending enough? ;)
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 04:05:32 pm
Thank you for a very honest non condescending post. It is so refreshing to hear someone essentially saying yes, they have advantages but I don't know the remedy. What drives people crazy is these moronic rationales as to why it is fair. I don't blame PA or LRCA for feeding at the trough, I blame the AAA. I actually like PA, I like the way they play, I like their fans and I like the way KK demands his players conduct themselves. I do despise LRCA, I honestly believe if you pulled back the right shrub in front of one of the buildings you find 666 (only people who've seen The Omen will get that)
I for one needed the explanation of the 666 reference. I was just sitting here thinking what 6+6+6=18 had to do with LRUCAs recruiting abilities. ;D
Quote from: loveallball on November 21, 2019, 04:27:45 pm
Is it funny to anyone else that Jessie P is making a comment about a non condescending post? I mean aren't all of his??
Did PA dad get mad at you and you are trying to make up? So cute. Condescending enough? ;)
I may obsess on a school but I can honestly say I don't obsess on a person. Again let me state I am flattered by your attention but that's it. I am unable to reciprocate your attention. And playing the "PA Dad doesn't like you either" game, well done. I'm devastated, I guess you guys won't pick me for four square or maybe steal my backpack and play keep away.
Jessie, another question. I'm actually asking these by the way, what do you think of Harrison?
They are what....23-1? in their past 24? What if they win the state championship? Then their last two seasons are as good as LRCA's mini run
Quote from: Almatrackster on November 21, 2019, 07:27:52 pm
Jessie, another question. I'm actually asking these by the way, what do you think of Harrison?
They are what....23-1? in their past 24? What if they win the state championship? Then their last two seasons are as good as LRCA's mini run
I love Harrison, they are everything that is right about high school sports. Organic homegrown talent that has been coached up since elementary school. Community support and an honest sense of civic pride. They represent the city of Harrison and they play the hand they were dealt.
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 07:53:22 pm
I love Harrison, they are everything that is right about high school sports. Organic homegrown talent that has been coached up since elementary school. Community support and an honest sense of civic pride. They represent the city of Harrison and they play the hand they were dealt.
He loves Harrison, just not the local Police force. ;D
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 04:47:47 pm
I may obsess on a school but I can honestly say I don't obsess on a person. Again let me state I am flattered by your attention but that's it. I am unable to reciprocate your attention. And playing the "PA Dad doesn't like you either" game, well done. I'm devastated, I guess you guys won't pick me for four square or maybe steal my backpack and play keep away.
Heck, Jessie, I do like you. I hope that doesn't ruin your reputation.
You indicated you like a rough and tumble debate so I've just been trying to accommodate you.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 21, 2019, 08:05:23 pm
Heck, Jessie, I do like you. I hope that doesn't ruin your reputation.
You indicated you like a rough and tumble debate so I've just been trying to accommodate you.
You know I do. And yes, you have acknowledged the advantages, the remedy is the debate.
Had Harrison won it all last year the debate would have received a serious body blow but who won it? PA part deux, it's like Cousin Eddie (LRCA) broke in and stole all Clark's (PA) Christmas decorations. Now we have to look at that gaudy display on the RV.
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 08:42:58 pm
You know I do. And yes, you have acknowledged the advantages, the remedy is the debate.
Had Harrison won it all last year the debate would have received a serious body blow but who won it? PA part deux, it's like Cousin Eddie (LRCA) broke in and stole all Clark's (PA) Christmas decorations. Now we have to look at that gaudy display on the RV.
Omg, that is funny right there, great timing on the Christmas reference!
"Worse? How could things get any worse? Take a look around here, Ellen. We're at the threshold of heck."
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 07:53:22 pm
I love Harrison, they are everything that is right about high school sports. Organic homegrown talent that has been coached up since elementary school. Community support and an honest sense of civic pride. They represent the city of Harrison and they play the hand they were dealt.
JP , no matter what PA Dad slings at you in the private/public school debate , you keep doing you buddy 😁 you nailed it with that post right there . Coach Wells is top notch . His staff is top notch and together they've brought up this amazing group of rowdy , organic homegrown players that are ready to leave it all on the field tomorrow night and know that they're one of the best "public" school teams in Arkansas . No special offseason training . No scholarships . No meal planning 🤪 And don't come at me about the private school crap PA Dad . You're in my town so mind ya business 😉 age old argument , no solution in sight , it is what it is but the Gobs are gonna do what ever it takes to make sure you're not at War Memorial for the big dance again this year . That's the only solution to the problem . #GoGobs
Quote from: Drama Mama ™ on November 21, 2019, 09:12:58 pm
JP , no matter what PA Dad slings at you in the private/public school debate , you keep doing you buddy 😁 you nailed it with that post right there . Coach Wells is top notch . His staff is top notch and together they've brought up this amazing group of rowdy , organic homegrown players that are ready to leave it all on the field tomorrow night and know that they're one of the best "public" school teams in Arkansas . No special offseason training . No scholarships . No meal planning 🤪 And don't come at me about the private school crap PA Dad . You're in my town so mind ya business 😉 age old argument , no solution in sight , it is what it is but the Gobs are gonna do what ever it takes to make sure you're not at War Memorial for the big dance again this year . That's the only solution to the problem . #GoGobs
Great post Mama Gob! +1
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 04:05:32 pm
Thank you for a very honest non condescending post. It is so refreshing to hear someone essentially saying yes, they have advantages but I don't know the remedy. What drives people crazy is these moronic rationales as to why it is fair. I don't blame PA or LRCA for feeding at the trough, I blame the AAA. I actually like PA, I like the way they play, I like their fans and I like the way KK demands his players conduct themselves. I do despise LRCA, I honestly believe if you pulled back the right shrub in front of one of the buildings you find 666 (only people who've seen The Omen will get that)
You have personal problems.
Quote from: incogneto on November 21, 2019, 09:20:35 pm
You have personal problems.
Far too many to list here, I have serious issues.
Quote from: Drama Mama ™ on November 21, 2019, 09:12:58 pm
JP , no matter what PA Dad slings at you in the private/public school debate , you keep doing you buddy 😁 you nailed it with that post right there . Coach Wells is top notch . His staff is top notch and together they've brought up this amazing group of rowdy , organic homegrown players that are ready to leave it all on the field tomorrow night and know that they're one of the best "public" school teams in Arkansas . No special offseason training . No scholarships . No meal planning 🤪 And don't come at me about the private school crap PA Dad . You're in my town so mind ya business 😉 age old argument , no solution in sight , it is what it is but the Gobs are gonna do what ever it takes to make sure you're not at War Memorial for the big dance again this year . That's the only solution to the problem . #GoGobs
Mama, I don't disagree with anything you say. Harrison has a very talented team. Coach Wells is great and I've always said it comes down to coaching. I really hope I'm wrong but I won't be surprised to see Harrison at WMS. I always pull for Harrison (if they're not playing PA) because they have a great program and coach.
I just hope for a competitive game with no injuries.
Quote from: JacketFan on November 21, 2019, 01:15:51 pm
Using the number of active players in the NFL as a gauge of talent coming out of public or private schools in Arkansas does not tell whether a certain type of school has a advantage over the other. A lot of posters on here that follow high school regularly for the last 40 years can agree with me on this if they are honest people. We all know that some of the greatest high school players of all time never even played college ball, much less NFL. High school football is about having a coach that can build a team around what he has available, and the coach must have the uncanny ability to take a kid with mediocre talent, and coach him up to a level he never thought he could play at. Take Wynne for example, I think we can all agree that they are a fairly successful program. How many kids from Wynne has went onto play college football at any level? The answer is, not very many. The reason why, the coaches play with what they have, and coach them up to win games. So yes, every few years or so, a incredible football talent comes along, so feel blessed when they do.
There are two sides to this argument. If you're talking about teams that have the best athletes then teams that have athletes in the NFL is relevant. That does not mean that the teams that those athletes played on were the best high school teams but it shows those teams had at least one elite athlete.
And players in the NFL is probably a better indicator of teams with elite athletes than athletes who played D-1. It's much harder to play in the NFL than to play D-1.
But I agree that success in high school depends much more on coaching and team play than one elite athlete.
Look, you can say what you want about PA, but when my brother was playing them in 90's he was playing the same last names for the most part on the team today. Only thing missing is Dante Wommack bringing his kids back to the school.
Quote from: JessieP on November 21, 2019, 04:10:01 pm
Nuclear fusion was figured out in the 1930's by Hans Bethe. Try and keep up.
Actually, kind sir, Arthur Eddington first postulated the idea in 1920. I was referring to "figuring out" how to harness nuclear fusion as an energy source. Try and keep up. :o)
Got a bad taste for privates a while back because of P.A. There was a very good athlete from a public school that was academically ineligible to play his freshman year at his school. Not only did he get in to P.A., which supposedly has high entrance standards for academics, he received financial assistance. He was an outstanding football and basketball player for three years at P.A. He eventually went on to be a very gifted player at Louisiana Tech. Is there a reason why a kid that is academically ineligible at a public school can academically qualify for entrance at P.A.? My disdain for privates somewhat cooled because our school ended up in conference with Harding Academy shortly after this and they seemed to be doing everything by the book. I purposely did not put the young man's name and where he came from on here, because I don't blame him at all. It is a system problem and not a kid problem.
Quote from: hoops guy on November 22, 2019, 01:14:29 pm
Got a bad taste for privates a while back because of P.A. There was a very good athlete from a public school that was academically ineligible to play his freshman year at his school. Not only did he get in to P.A., which supposedly has high entrance standards for academics, he received financial assistance. He was an outstanding football and basketball player for three years at P.A. He eventually went on to be a very gifted player at Louisiana Tech. Is there a reason why a kid that is academically ineligible at a public school can academically qualify for entrance at P.A.? My disdain for privates somewhat cooled because our school ended up in conference with Harding Academy shortly after this and they seemed to be doing everything by the book. I purposely did not put the young man's name and where he came from on here, because I don't blame him at all. It is a system problem and not a kid problem.
I can see why you would be mad.... some kid had a great high school experience, then, went on to college. Gotta be a way to stop such things!
Quote from: JacketFan on November 21, 2019, 07:55:20 pm
He loves Harrison, just not the local Police force. ;D
Wonder if he loves the radio stations in Harrison? :o)
Quote from: Drama Mama ™ on November 21, 2019, 09:12:58 pm
JP , no matter what PA Dad slings at you in the private/public school debate , you keep doing you buddy 😁 you nailed it with that post right there . Coach Wells is top notch . His staff is top notch and together they've brought up this amazing group of rowdy , organic homegrown players that are ready to leave it all on the field tomorrow night and know that they're one of the best "public" school teams in Arkansas . No special offseason training . No scholarships . No meal planning 🤪 And don't come at me about the private school crap PA Dad . You're in my town so mind ya business 😉 age old argument , no solution in sight , it is what it is but the Gobs are gonna do what ever it takes to make sure you're not at War Memorial for the big dance again this year . That's the only solution to the problem . #GoGobs
We can only hope most of that post was in jest.
Quote from: JacketFan on November 21, 2019, 04:29:35 pm
I for one needed the explanation of the 666 reference. I was just sitting here thinking what 6+6+6=18 had to do with LRUCAs recruiting abilities. ;D
I thought it was the number of points PA scored by Week 9. :o)
Heberfan, read again! I said "I don't blame the kid." He has to do what is best for him. My problem is with the people who continually deny this stuff goes on and turn a blind eye. I know all privates don't do this kind of thing. So I don't "hate" all privates like other people will say they do. This stuff is becoming more prevalent in public schools because of school choice. I want the ones who are doing it held accountable, public or private. Unfortunately, it is not going to stop just like the NCAA violations. They will continue to go on and on, because severe penalties will cost money. I felt bad for Lutheran when they had to fold their program because of what the bigger privates were doing. That wasn't right, either.
Quote from: hoops guy on November 22, 2019, 01:44:21 pm
Heberfan, read again! I said "I don't blame the kid." He has to do what is best for him. My problem is with the people who continually deny this stuff goes on and turn a blind eye. I know all privates don't do this kind of thing. So I don't "hate" all privates like other people will say they do. This stuff is becoming more prevalent in public schools because of school choice. I want the ones who are doing it held accountable, public or private. Unfortunately, it is not going to stop just like the NCAA violations. They will continue to go on and on, because severe penalties will cost money. I felt bad for Lutheran when they had to fold their program because of what the bigger privates were doing. That wasn't right, either.
People should have the CHOICE of going to public or private school, playing on the football team or chess team, or dropping out of school to be a semi-pro kazoo player. If you must have fairness and equality in the world, prepare to forever be unhappy.
Heberfan everybody knows life's not fair! ::) But even in life there are rules. What is the use in having them if they are not going to be enforced? This is not a fair or unfair thing, that would be the discussion about privates having better pregame food, better family situations, more access to trainers and so on. That is unfair but not against the rules of the governing body. not seeing this is in the words of Andy Dufrane "Obtuse"! ;D
Quote from: hoops guy on November 22, 2019, 01:59:31 pm
Heberfan everybody knows life's not fair! ::) But even in life there are rules. What is the use in having them if they are not going to be enforced? This is not a fair or unfair thing, that would be the discussion about privates having better pregame food, better family situations, more access to trainers and so on. That is unfair but not against the rules of the governing body. not seeing this is in the words of Andy Dufrane "Obtuse"! ;D
Even "rules" are man made, sometimes unfair or even stupid. Rules also change. Gets complicated, huh? Just go play the game, then, go do life.
Quote from: HeberFan on November 22, 2019, 01:51:39 pm
People should have the CHOICE of going to public or private school, playing on the football team or chess team, or dropping out of school to be a semi-pro kazoo player. If you must have fairness and equality in the world, prepare to forever be unhappy.
Interesting...
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 22, 2019, 02:19:23 pm
Interesting...
Yeah, I'm kind of radical that way. Choice isn't as bad as some people thing. Now being a semi-pro kazoo player, that's tough.
Quote from: HeberFan on November 22, 2019, 02:20:39 pm
Yeah, I'm kind of radical that way. Choice isn't as bad as some people thing. Now being a semi-pro kazoo player, that's tough.
Should public schools get to choose who enrolls in their school too?
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 22, 2019, 03:02:06 pm
Should public schools get to choose who enrolls in their school too?
Sure. Anyone who lives in the district can enroll, or, drop out and sell meth. Them's the rules!
Comparing a private football PROGRAM to a public school Team is comparing apples and oranges, it shouldn't be done. It's not illegal but does lack fairness to the kids who play under the Friday night lights.
A few private School programs have an average of about 100 kids per grade and 20- 25 play football. So that's about half the boys play football? Wonder why? That does not happen much in 4, 5 or 6 A public schools that i'm aware of.
I feel a big part of the unfairness stems from the very best kids that live in densely populated area can densely populate one or two teams. If the player is fast and talented enough but does not have the funds for School he gets a free ride to play football for that PROGRAM. Wonder if them full rides also go to band members or science club kids or cheerleaders who want a private education?..My guess is those funds are reserved for position football players 99%of the time.
Private schools with Football programs residing in concentrated areas enjoy the scholarship advantage in Arkansas for now. If it's not an advantage why give kids full ride's?? Those kids get a free private education to make the schools football program better. It is an advantage and that's why they do it.
Quote from: Simba on November 23, 2019, 04:25:38 pm
Comparing a private football PROGRAM to a public school Team is comparing apples and oranges, it shouldn't be done. It's not illegal but does lack fairness to the kids who play under the Friday night lights.
A few private School programs have an average of about 100 kids per grade and 20- 25 play football. So that's about half the boys play football? Wonder why? That does not happen much in 4, 5 or 6 A public schools that i'm aware of.
I feel a big part of the unfairness stems from the very best kids that live in densely populated area can densely populate one or two teams. If the player is fast and talented enough but does not have the funds for School he gets a free ride to play football for that PROGRAM. Wonder if them full rides also go to band members or science club kids or cheerleaders who want a private education?..My guess is those funds are reserved for position football players 99%of the time.
Private schools with Football programs residing in concentrated areas enjoy the scholarship advantage in Arkansas for now. If it's not an advantage why give kids full ride's?? Those kids get a free private education to make the schools football program better. It is an advantage and that's why they do it.
. I can see u don't know much about private schools
Quote from: Simba on November 23, 2019, 04:25:38 pm
Comparing a private football PROGRAM to a public school Team is comparing apples and oranges, it shouldn't be done. It's not illegal but does lack fairness to the kids who play under the Friday night lights.
A few private School programs have an average of about 100 kids per grade and 20- 25 play football. So that's about half the boys play football? Wonder why? That does not happen much in 4, 5 or 6 A public schools that i'm aware of.
I feel a big part of the unfairness stems from the very best kids that live in densely populated area can densely populate one or two teams. If the player is fast and talented enough but does not have the funds for School he gets a free ride to play football for that PROGRAM. Wonder if them full rides also go to band members or science club kids or cheerleaders who want a private education?..My guess is those funds are reserved for position football players 99%of the time.
Private schools with Football programs residing in concentrated areas enjoy the scholarship advantage in Arkansas for now. If it's not an advantage why give kids full ride's?? Those kids get a free private education to make the schools football program better. It is an advantage and that's why they do it.
If you review the thread you are posting in, this issue is addressed at length. PA, at least, does not provide full schloarships to any students.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 23, 2019, 04:34:39 pm
If you review the thread you are posting in, this issue is addressed at length. PA, at least, does not provide full schloarships to any students.
A few years ago when the FOI info came out, there were a few that got enough to cover full tuition I think. Are you sure this is the case?
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 23, 2019, 04:42:03 pm
A few years ago when the FOI info came out, there were a few that got enough to cover full tuition I think. Are you sure this is the case?
If that is true, then the school is lying to its school board. No student gets more than 50% tuition, and athletes are not disproportionally represented in scholarship dollars.
After reading about a dozen pages and in light of Jessie's "honestly" post, I have a question. Jessie, are you really just envious/jealous that your position in life doesn't afford you or your family the opportunity to attend a private school? No flame here, asking an "honest" question.
I just can't see any other reason why someone would be so concerned about this issue if they weren't just a little jealous. You know, deep down.
Quote from: Hawgpilot on November 23, 2019, 05:26:15 pm
After reading about a dozen pages and in light of Jessie's "honestly" post, I have a question. Jessie, are you really just envious/jealous that your position in life doesn't afford you or your family the opportunity to attend a private school? No flame here, asking an "honest" question.
I just can't see any other reason why someone would be so concerned about this issue if they weren't just a little jealous. You know, deep down.
You got me pegged Dr Freud, dead to rights. Yes, I'm consumed with jealousy. Now there are a few people here that will read your astute diagnosis and chuckle. They actually know me and my family but that's neither here nor there. Let's let your Ivy League judgement stand. Woe unto me, woe unto me.
I've read somewhere that there are some parents, not me of course, too consumed with jealousy, who make a conscious decision to have their kids attend school with less then desirables (we all know who I'm speaking of) and have them succeed on their own merits. Why not? Correct me if wrong but out in the real world not everyone will look exactly like us, wink wink.
Red Devil - in the only FOI request I did to AAA, the data reported to AAA, there was at least one football player who received almost 14k in financial aid. Surely this is a full ride, right? maybe it's not. On average, the 20 football players received about 7500 each, which is slightly more than half tuition.
I mean, maybe they submitted the wrong information, but I just don't believe that all the kids that receive financial aid at PA are required to pay half tuition. The form states financial aid to be paid by the school.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 23, 2019, 07:13:57 pm
Red Devil - in the only FOI request I did to AAA, the data reported to AAA, there was at least one football player who received almost 14k in financial aid. Surely this is a full ride, right? maybe it's not. On average, the 20 football players received about 7500 each, which is slightly more than half tuition.
I mean, maybe they submitted the wrong information, but I just don't believe that all the kids that receive financial aid at PA are required to pay half tuition. The form states financial aid to be paid by the school.
I would like to see that. $14k would be a full ride. That's surprising to me. If 20 players get scholarships, that's about 25% of the team. Consistent with the school as a whole.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 23, 2019, 07:26:05 pm
I would like to see that. $14k would be a full ride. That's surprising to me. If 20 players get scholarships, that's about 25% of the team. Consistent with the school as a whole.
Well back somewhere in this thread it was around 33 percent of the team. And 20 percent of the school I think. Somewhere in there. Of course, these numbers are around 3-4 years old. Time for an update? Maybe!
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 23, 2019, 07:32:08 pm
Well back somewhere in this thread it was around 33 percent of the team. And 20 percent of the school I think. Somewhere in there. Of course, these numbers are around 3-4 years old. Time for an update? Maybe!
If you have the time to do it, I'd like to see the current info.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 23, 2019, 07:55:36 pm
If you have the time to do it, I'd like to see the current info.
I will try to find some time - very busy these days. I expect LRCA to have a larger number on financial aid this time around. Wonder if my guess is true?
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 23, 2019, 07:57:01 pm
I will try to find some time - very busy these days. I expect LRCA to have a larger number on financial aid this time around. Wonder if my guess is true?
I truly don't know. Financial aid is done by a third party, so shouldn't be related.
I'll say it one more time for old times sake:
Applied to Private Schools only, implement a success advancement system developed by the AAA Executive Board. With the current enrollment rule in place, in any given sport each realignment year the private school would move up a division based on results from the previous two years. Give 5 points for a championship, 3 for a runner up and 1 for a semifinal appearance. Score 6 points in the two years, move up a division for two years. Fail to accumulate 2 points over the next two years, move back down a division until you reach your classification as presently set. Don't pick on my oversimplified example; it's simply to show what I'm thinking. Applying this Exclusively to Private Schools would not be unfair to them (IMO) and should satisfy all but those most anti-private fans.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on November 23, 2019, 11:32:50 pm
I'll say it one more time for old times sake:
Applied to Private Schools only, implement a success advancement system developed by the AAA Executive Board. With the current enrollment rule in place, in any given sport each realignment year the private school would move up a division based on results from the previous two years. Give 5 points for a championship, 3 for a runner up and 1 for a semifinal appearance. Score 6 points in the two years, move up a division for two years. Fail to accumulate 2 points over the next two years, move back down a division until you reach your classification as presently set. Don't pick on my oversimplified example; it's simply to show what I'm thinking. Applying this Exclusively to Private Schools would not be unfair to them (IMO) and should satisfy all but those most anti-private fans.
I agree with this but I think it should be applied to both privates and publics. Success accounts for the advantages privates have. But it also applies to the success publics, such as Greenwood, Nashville, Warren, etc. have.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on November 23, 2019, 11:32:50 pm
I'll say it one more time for old times sake:
Applied to Private Schools only, implement a success advancement system developed by the AAA Executive Board. With the current enrollment rule in place, in any given sport each realignment year the private school would move up a division based on results from the previous two years. Give 5 points for a championship, 3 for a runner up and 1 for a semifinal appearance. Score 6 points in the two years, move up a division for two years. Fail to accumulate 2 points over the next two years, move back down a division until you reach your classification as presently set. Don't pick on my oversimplified example; it's simply to show what I'm thinking. Applying this Exclusively to Private Schools would not be unfair to them (IMO) and should satisfy all but those most anti-private fans.
I agree with this but I think it should be applied to both privates and publics. Success accounts for the advantages privates have. But it also applies to the success publics, such as Greenwood, Nashville, Warren, etc. have.
Quote from: Intelligentsia on November 23, 2019, 11:32:50 pm
I'll say it one more time for old times sake:
Applied to Private Schools only, implement a success advancement system developed by the AAA Executive Board. With the current enrollment rule in place, in any given sport each realignment year the private school would move up a division based on results from the previous two years. Give 5 points for a championship, 3 for a runner up and 1 for a semifinal appearance. Score 6 points in the two years, move up a division for two years. Fail to accumulate 2 points over the next two years, move back down a division until you reach your classification as presently set. Don't pick on my oversimplified example; it's simply to show what I'm thinking. Applying this Exclusively to Private Schools would not be unfair to them (IMO) and should satisfy all but those most anti-private fans.
Sounds like a logical option to me. What are the odds it will even be discussed by the powers to be?
Quote from: Intelligentsia on November 23, 2019, 11:32:50 pm
I'll say it one more time for old times sake:
Applied to Private Schools only, implement a success advancement system developed by the AAA Executive Board. With the current enrollment rule in place, in any given sport each realignment year the private school would move up a division based on results from the previous two years. Give 5 points for a championship, 3 for a runner up and 1 for a semifinal appearance. Score 6 points in the two years, move up a division for two years. Fail to accumulate 2 points over the next two years, move back down a division until you reach your classification as presently set. Don't pick on my oversimplified example; it's simply to show what I'm thinking. Applying this Exclusively to Private Schools would not be unfair to them (IMO) and should satisfy all but those most anti-private fans.
Interesting concept...basically you would have to be AT LEAST the runner up two years in a row to change anything. So basically you are speaking to PA the last 5 years and possibly LRCA this year. Kind of silly if you ask me. Needs a better format but the success advancement system is a good one. Just needs to be applied across the board and potentially points to be diff.
Quote from: the voice on December 17, 2015, 09:09:32 pm
1. Town support.
2. Facilities.
3. Coaching.
4. Winning attitude.
5. Tradition.
6. Strong in-town pee wee program that starts lumberjack football at an early age.
And so on.
If a place can instill a winning attitude and a winning tradition into their kids and town the Sky is the limit. Look at greenwood. They were a doormat for years but they turned the attitude around. Has anyone ever been to Nashville or Warren, AR? There is nothing in those towns like it is in Little Rock or Bentonville. But there IS PRIDE. Every kid that begins walking through the halls of eastside elementary want to put on the lumberjack jersey. Why? Because their grandfathers did, dads did, brothers, uncles, etc etc.
My point exactly! Great post
Yep, great points...........coaching, expectations, confidence, history, ! Back in the day, Private Schools did recruit. They got away with pulling kids from a large area and public schools kids were limited on where they went. Now, Public schools do the same thing to try and gain advantage. They enter Uncle Joe's address or get special permission, and "BAM", they are in. Private schools from my home state used to get kids due to a Church affiliation mainly, or the parents wanted their kids in smaller classroom sizes. Some parents like the discipline advantage private schools can give. It's different now than what it once was. Regardless, Coaches are what make players though!
So, you are penalizing a program for winning?
Quote from: HeberFan on November 25, 2019, 11:13:40 am
So, you are penalizing a program for winning?
Or rewarding them, right?
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2019, 11:59:41 am
Or rewarding them, right?
Making a winning program "move up" to play even bigger schools is a penalty.
Quote from: HeberFan on November 25, 2019, 12:58:19 pm
Making a winning program "move up" to play even bigger schools is a penalty.
They could view it either way. Could be prideful. Sometimes winning teams do get penalized. It's part of life, right? It's not fair. Those dang NFL teams who are good should get the first pick if they want it - they shouldn't be penalized for being so good.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2019, 01:07:14 pm
They could view it either way. Could be prideful. Sometimes winning teams do get penalized. It's part of life, right? It's not fair. Those dang NFL teams who are good should get the first pick if they want it - they shouldn't be penalized for being so good.
Pro sports teams use a draft system to, at least try, acheiving parity. Owners want close, exciting games. It's about making the league a more compelling, exciting product. That's also why they share revenued to help the small-market teams.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 19, 2015, 09:54:19 pm
They may not waive the whole tuition but private schools give discounts to certain students. Instances like kids from single parents etc. You can deny it but it happens.
No way I can prove this. All I have is hearsay, but I have heard it said many times. AW is right!!
So if it's said enough times it's true even if you can't prove it? Have you ever taken a class in logic?
If someone tells you enough times that the earth is flat will you believe it?
I see I have struck a nerve!! Let's turn it around. Tell me how you can prove it doesn't happen!
Really? You said it's true because you've heard it many times but you can't prove it. That kind of reasoning always strikes a nerve because there's no reason to it.
Check the regulations. No private school can decide who gets a scholarship or how much it is worth. The school can only decide who gets admitted. An application for financials assistance is sent to a third party administrator not connected to the school. That administrator, based in Boston, decides who gets assistance and how much they get.
The school has no say so.
Im not so sure that is all correct. well maybe at PA, but I know a family for a fact at 2 private schools. 1 family was told that the school would cover 80% of the tuition and the siblings would be free until 9th grade and then they would cover 80% for those 2. The parent just had to sell their home in the town they lived in so the kid wouldn't have to sit 365. the other school for the other family I know they are letting the kid who is a 6th grader(may make a difference) go there for free until 8th grade and then they will cover 90% of tuition. they told the family they hade to come 6th grade cause if they cane 7th grade they would have to sit 365 based on trip A rules. now this wasn't PA but its was schools here in LR. This is a fact that I know
Quote from: HeberFan on November 25, 2019, 02:20:28 pm
Pro sports teams use a draft system to, at least try, acheiving parity. Owners want close, exciting games. It's about making the league a more compelling, exciting product. That's also why they share revenued to help the small-market teams.
Ohh. Parity. And what are we trying to do with a success advancement system?
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2019, 05:56:42 pm
Ohh. Parity. And what are we trying to do with a success advancement system?
I don't think true parity is the goal. With true parity every game would end in a tie.
I think the goal is competitive classifications. I agree with that. But, even with competitive classifications some teams are going to be at the bottom.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 06:19:29 pm
I don't think true parity is the goal. With true parity every game would end in a tie.
I think the goal is competitive classifications. I agree with that. But, even with competitive classifications some teams are going to be at the bottom.
Promotion and relegation ;D yes sir bring it on
Cross County (Wynne) has less than 20,000 people. Pulaski County has 393,000+ people. So anyone in Pulaski County can go to PA or LRCA? Anybody they select? Wynne can't refuse a student admission. Can PA or LRCA say the same? 5A private schools get to draw selectively from 20 times the population base Wynne has. Actually, a 25-mile radius would reach outside Pulaski County. Maybe the problem is just too obvious.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 08:32:38 pm
Cross County (Wynne) has less than 20,000 people. Pulaski County has 393,000+ people. So anyone in Pulaski County can go to PA or LRCA? Anybody they select? Wynne can't refuse a student admission. Can PA or LRCA say the same? 5A private schools get to draw selectively from 20 times the population base Wynne has. Actually, a 25-mile radius would reach outside Pulaski County. Maybe the
problem is just too obvious.
In LR a student can attend about any public or private school they choose. The same is true in NWA. So is this an urban vs rural problem?
What is your solution?
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 08:58:07 pm
In LR a student can attend about any public or private school they choose. The same is true in NWA. So is this an urban vs rural problem?
What is your solution?
But can they really attend any private school they choose? Or does the private school have to choose the student too?
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 08:58:07 pm
In LR a student can attend about any public or private school they choose. The same is true in NWA. So is this an urban vs rural problem?
What is your solution?
Well, that somewhat shoots a hole in my argument, but what's the tuition at a private school? Private schools are not an option if you can't afford them. Can a N. LR student opt for an LR school? Or only pay to go to a private school? And that still means LRCA and PA draw from a far larger population base. The argument that they have smaller enrollments loses steam when they have control over who is enrolled. So maybe a LR kid has the right to go to PA or LRCA but can't afford to. I just find the 20,000 vs 400,000 number jarring.
Obviously not a problem unique to 5A Arkansas:
https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/iowa-prep-sports/football/private-vs-public-an-issue-in-high-school-athletics-20180226 (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/iowa-prep-sports/football/private-vs-public-an-issue-in-high-school-athletics-20180226)
This private school coach in Iowa points to socio-economic considerations as a dominant factor. If high school sports is supposed to teach kids life skills, then I guess the public school athletes are learning the hard way that $$ matters.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2019, 09:02:53 pm
But can they really attend any private school they choose? Or does the private school have to choose the student too?
Of course the private must admit the student. But, if the student is a good athlete but can't meet the admission standards, he ends up at a public school. So I guess I miss the point.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 09:06:32 pm
Well, that somewhat shoots a hole in my argument, but what's the tuition at a private school? Private schools are not an option if you can't afford them. Can a N. LR student opt for an LR school? Or only pay to go to a private school? And that still means LRCA and PA draw from a far larger population base. The argument that they have smaller enrollments loses steam when they have control over who is enrolled. So maybe a LR kid has the right to go to PA or LRCA but can't afford to. I just find the 20,000 vs 400,000 number jarring.
Obviously not a problem unique to 5A Arkansas:
https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/iowa-prep-sports/football/private-vs-public-an-issue-in-high-school-athletics-20180226 (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/iowa-prep-sports/football/private-vs-public-an-issue-in-high-school-athletics-20180226)
This private school coach in Iowa points to socio-economic considerations as a dominant factor. If high school sports is supposed to teach kids life skills, then I guess the public school athletes are learning the hard way that $$ matters.
No no no. PA will pay for you to come to their school if you have something they want! Academically speaking, of course. And you do have to qualify - determined by a neutral third party. But remember, even if you want to and the money is somehow taking care of, they have to want you too. Us public schools just have to take anyone we get. Ugh.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 09:06:32 pm
Well, that somewhat shoots a hole in my argument, but what's the tuition at a private school? Private schools are not an option if you can't afford them. Can a N. LR student opt for an LR school? Or only pay to go to a private school? And that still means LRCA and PA draw from a far larger population base. The argument that they have smaller enrollments loses steam when they have control over who is enrolled. So maybe a LR kid has the right to go to PA or LRCA but can't afford to. I just find the 20,000 vs 400,000 number jarring.
Obviously not a problem unique to 5A Arkansas:
https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/iowa-prep-sports/football/private-vs-public-an-issue-in-high-school-athletics-20180226 (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/iowa-prep-sports/football/private-vs-public-an-issue-in-high-school-athletics-20180226)
This private school coach in Iowa points to socio-economic considerations as a dominant factor. If high school sports is supposed to teach kids life skills, then I guess the public school athletes are learning the hard way that $$ matters.
You are truly beating a dead horse. Virtually every private school poster on this board has conceded that privates have socioeconomic advantages. How many times do we have to do so?
The issue is what we do about it. I haven't heard your solution. What is it?
By the way, I'm a product of public schools. I think I got a good education. But, in LR, that is hard to achieve today. That's why my daughter attended PA. It had nothing to do with athletics.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2019, 09:28:15 pm
No no no. PA will pay for you to come to their school if you have something they want! Academically speaking, of course. And you do have to qualify - determined by a neutral third party. But remember, even if you want to and the money is somehow taking care of, they have to want you too. Us public schools just have to take anyone we get. Ugh.
But public schools don't have to start you as a football player. That's apples to oranges.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 09:06:32 pm
Well, that somewhat shoots a hole in my argument, but what's the tuition at a private school? Private schools are not an option if you can't afford them. Can a N. LR student opt for an LR school? Or only pay to go to a private school? And that still means LRCA and PA draw from a far larger population base. The argument that they have smaller enrollments loses steam when they have control over who is enrolled. So maybe a LR kid has the right to go to PA or LRCA but can't afford to. I just find the 20,000 vs 400,000 number jarring.
Obviously not a problem unique to 5A Arkansas:
https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/iowa-prep-sports/football/private-vs-public-an-issue-in-high-school-athletics-20180226 (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/iowa-prep-sports/football/private-vs-public-an-issue-in-high-school-athletics-20180226)
This private school coach in Iowa points to socio-economic considerations as a dominant factor. If high school sports is supposed to teach kids life skills, then I guess the public school athletes are learning the hard way that $$ matters.
The number 400,000 vs 20,000 actually isn't staggering if you understand the math.
central...forgot a big one..🙄McClellan
Fair
PV
eStem
Hall
Catholic
Episcopal
Mills
PA
SIA Tech
LRCA
Joe T
Ole Main
Lisa Academy
Quest
CAC
Ark Baptist
I am sure I am missing one or two but you can see the point. That 400,000 is divided amongst a lot of schools. Batesville, Wynne, etc...may get 20,000 but that is concentrated mostly if not all to that school. To come to LRCA in that 25 mile radius there are a host of admission criteria and you must sit a year. Plus pay at least a % of tuition if you qualify for FA. Trust me driving past all the schools that my taxes pay for to write a check isn't always easy. Wynne has to accept a student admission because you cant be denied a public education. This is why...Private to Private sit a year...Public to Private sit a year. Private to Public and Public to Public.....game on.
The private school has a right to accept or "reject" any student based on the criteria. Happens to all applicants. I mean PA famously chants "we accept Mormons" for a reason.
This does not include a HOST of schools within the 25 mile radius that kids end up at. Maumelle, NLR, Bryant, Benton etc..etc..I mean there is a hooper from GB that is at Maumelle this year. Why...ooops JP...sports.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 09:32:56 pm
You are truly beating a dead horse. Virtually every private school poster on this board has conceded that privates have socioeconomic advantages. How many times do we have to do so?
The issue is what we do about it. I haven't heard your solution. What is it?
By the way, I'm a product of public schools. I think I got a good education. But, in LR, that is hard to achieve today. That's why my daughter attended PA. It had nothing to do with athletics.
Same here.
Why aren't you complaining about NLR, Bryant, Bentonville, GW, etc? They draw from many thousands of students. And particularly in NLR, they have very little competition from other schools.
Quote from: loveallball on November 25, 2019, 09:38:14 pm
The number 400,000 vs 20,000 actually isn't staggering if you understand the math.
McClellan
Fair
PV
eStem
Hall
Catholic
Episcopal
Mills
PA
SIA Tech
LRCA
Joe T
Ole Main
Lisa Academy
Quest
CAC
Ark Baptist
I am sure I am missing one or two but you can see the point. That 400,000 is divided amongst a lot of schools. Batesville, Wynne, etc...may get 20,000 but that is concentrated mostly if not all to that school. To come to LRCA in that 25 mile radius there are a host of admission criteria and you must sit a year. Plus pay at least a % of tuition if you qualify for FA. Trust me driving past all the schools that my taxes pay for to write a check isn't always easy. Wynne has to accept a student admission because you cant be denied a public education. This is why...Private to Private sit a year...Public to Private sit a year. Private to Public and Public to Public.....game on.
The private school has a right to accept or "reject" any student based on the criteria. Happens to all applicants. I mean PA famously chants "we accept Mormons" for a reason.
This does not include a HOST of schools within the 25 mile radius that kids end up at. Maumelle, NLR, Bryant, Benton etc..etc..I mean there is a hooper from GB that is at Maumelle this year. Why...ooops JP...sports.
You would be surprised the number of kids Wynne loses to cross county high school, Palestine high school, Lee academy, and Calvary Christian (private schools). All of these are 15 to 30 mins from Wynne. It will be even worse when Palestine gets this new school built with all new facilities next year. Wynne will lose quite a few students then as well. We will be in 4A within the next 5 years I suspect.
It will be interesting to see what happens in Missouri next Fall and Spring - the first year they've gone to a success advancement applicable only to private schools. It will be implemented for the 20-21 year and look back at the past 6 years.
Quote from: loveallball on November 25, 2019, 09:38:14 pm
The number 400,000 vs 20,000 actually isn't staggering if you understand the math.
McClellan
Fair
PV
eStem
Hall
Catholic
Episcopal
Mills
PA
SIA Tech
LRCA
Joe T
Ole Main
Lisa Academy
Quest
CAC
Ark Baptist
I am sure I am missing one or two but you can see the point. That 400,000 is divided amongst a lot of schools. Batesville, Wynne, etc...may get 20,000 but that is concentrated mostly if not all to that school. To come to LRCA in that 25 mile radius there are a host of admission criteria and you must sit a year. Plus pay at least a % of tuition if you qualify for FA. Trust me driving past all the schools that my taxes pay for to write a check isn't always easy. Wynne has to accept a student admission because you cant be denied a public education. This is why...Private to Private sit a year...Public to Private sit a year. Private to Public and Public to Public.....game on.
The private school has a right to accept or "reject" any student based on the criteria. Happens to all applicants. I mean PA famously chants "we accept Mormons" for a reason.
This does not include a HOST of schools within the 25 mile radius that kids end up at. Maumelle, NLR, Bryant, Benton etc..etc..I mean there is a hooper from GB that is at Maumelle this year. Why...ooops JP...sports.
Well if I understand what PADad is saying, that 400,000 is not being divided by rule. Each and every one of those 400,000 is available for for PA and LRCA to draw from. Wynne does not have that option. And I think that 400,000 number is actually about 100,000 too low for a 25 mile radius. I doubt many are eager to transfer to Mills over PA.
Quote from: MDXPHD on November 25, 2019, 10:03:56 pm
It will be interesting to see what happens in Missouri next Fall and Spring - the first year they've gone to a success advancement applicable only to private schools. It will be implemented for the 20-21 year and look back at the past 6 years.
Here is my problem with the current status of this thread. Virtually every private poster admits that private schools have socioeconomic advantages. Not all, but most private posters agree that success advancement is the best solution. So why argue anymore when most of us agree. Why don't we lobby our representatives to the AAA or our legislators to implement success advancement? It occurs to me that maybe that would be more productive than complaining on a message board.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 10:14:18 pm
Well if I understand what PADad is saying, that 400,000 is not being divided by rule. Each and every one of those 400,000 is available for for PA and LRCA to draw from. Wynne does not have that option. And I think that 400,000 number is actually about 100,000 too low for a 25 mile radius.
But it's also available for the public schools.
And I still haven't heard your solution.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 10:14:18 pm
Well if I understand what PADad is saying, that 400,000 is not being divided by rule. Each and every one of those 400,000 is available for for PA and LRCA to draw from. Wynne does not have that option. And I think that 400,000 number is actually about 100,000 too low for a 25 mile radius.
Let's assume your numbers are correct. Of that 400,000, a small percentage are in high school. Of that group, about 100 per grade attend PA. I haven't researched the numbers but I'd guess NLR and Central have 800-1000 per grade. In 5A, McClellan, Maumelle and Parkview probably have 300-400 per grade. So numbers tell us very little.
Also, the population for cross county is actually 16,500, with 20% of that number at poverty level or lower, so yes there are a lot of factors at play, and yes, the current system and rules benefit the few, but I don't blame the few, they are only working the system per the rules set forth by the so called governing body.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 09:43:31 pm
Why aren't you complaining about NLR, Bryant, Bentonville, GW, etc? They draw from many thousands of students. And particularly in NLR, they have very little competition from other schools.
You left off the biggest recruiter in LR. Parkview, D1 talent all over the field. Why didn't they win more in 5a? Well...
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 09:32:56 pm
You are truly beating a dead horse. Virtually every private school poster on this board has conceded that privates have socioeconomic advantages. How many times do we have to do so?
The issue is what we do about it. I haven't heard your solution. What is it?
By the way, I'm a product of public schools. I think I got a good education. But, in LR, that is hard to achieve today. That's why my daughter attended PA. It had nothing to do with athletics.
I didn't say it was a socioeconomic problem. That Iowa coach did. I am focusing on the tremendous population advantage that LRCA and PA have to draw from. I do so to counter the argument that they are already playing above their class given their student enrollment. I am suggesting that the very nature of public vs private schools (and their admission practices) makes student enrollment an invalid criterion for determining classification. You're right most of the posters here have given more thought to an actual solution than I have. Sure kids can transfer public to public, but that doesn't get you to that quality education and more that PA and LRCA have to offer. Kids don't have the same incentive to transfer to a public school as they do to a private school. Sure you went to a public school but that's not what you choose for your kid. Says a lot. I actually like PA. When they played the Nashville team 99% of the posters here like me were cheering them on. I guess my opinion is that it's time for PA to play 6A. Not so sure about LRCA just yet, but maybe them too. Just my opinion. I focus on PA and LRCA instead of NW Arkansas because they are who I am more familiar with. Plain and simple.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 09:06:32 pm
Well, that somewhat shoots a hole in my argument, but what's the tuition at a private school? Private schools are not an option if you can't afford them. Can a N. LR student opt for an LR school? Or only pay to go to a private school? And that still means LRCA and PA draw from a far larger population base. The argument that they have smaller enrollments loses steam when they have control over who is enrolled. So maybe a LR kid has the right to go to PA or LRCA but can't afford to. I just find the 20,000 vs 400,000 number jarring.
Obviously not a problem unique to 5A Arkansas:
https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/iowa-prep-sports/football/private-vs-public-an-issue-in-high-school-athletics-20180226 (https://www.thegazette.com/subject/sports/iowa-prep-sports/football/private-vs-public-an-issue-in-high-school-athletics-20180226)
This private school coach in Iowa points to socio-economic considerations as a dominant factor. If high school sports is supposed to teach kids life skills, then I guess the public school athletes are learning the hard way that $$ matters.
I suppose its better to learn that truth now as opposed to later in life. No one ever told me that life was fair. I grew up in DeWitt and attended a public school. It was a great experience however, I choose to send my kids to private school primarily because I want them to have a biblical worldview. Secondly, they get much better prepared for college than the public schools offer, at least where I live.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 10:37:56 pm
I didn't say it was a socioeconomic problem. That Iowa coach did. I am focusing on the tremendous population advantage that LRCA and PA have to draw from. I do so to counter the argument that they are already playing above their class given their student enrollment. I am suggesting that the very nature of public vs private schools (and their admission practices) makes student enrollment an invalid criterion for determining classification. You're right most of the posters here have given more thought to an actual solution than I have. Sure kids can transfer public to public, but that doesn't get you to that quality education and more that PA and LRCA have to offer. Kids don't have the same incentive to transfer to a public school as they do to a private school. Sure you went to a public school but that's not what you choose for your kid. Says a lot. I actually like PA. When they played the Nashville team 99% of the posters here like me were cheering them on. I guess my opinion is that it's time for PA to play 6A. Not so sure about LRCA just yet, but maybe them too. Just my opinion. I focus on PA and LRCA instead of NW Arkansas because they are who I am more familiar with. Plain and simple.
Fair enough. I'm also ready for PA to play in 6A. I've said that for several years. I think all PA posters except Yellowcake agree with that. I guess that's one reason I'm puzzled by the continuation of this thread. If we agree, and it seems we do, shouldn't that resolve it?
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 10:24:52 pm
Let's assume your numbers are correct. Of that 400,000, a small percentage are in high school. Of that group, about 100 per grade attend PA. I haven't researched the numbers but I'd guess NLR and Central have 800-1000 per grade. In 5A, McClellan, Maumelle and Parkview probably have 300-400 per grade. So numbers tell us very little.
And correspondingly, of that 16,500 only a small percentage would be in high school in Wynne as well. I think your argument here is very weak. MDXPHD's example of Missouri is very interesting. I guess that is what I am unartfully suggesting. PA's results on a consistent basis is saying it's time they were in 6A.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 10:45:36 pm
Fair enough. I'm also ready for PA to play in 6A. I've said that for several years. I think all PA posters except Yellowcake agree with that. I guess that's one reason I'm puzzled by the continuation of this thread. If we agree, and it seems we do, shouldn't that resolve it?
Works for me. Not a penalty to PA if that is the level they consistently play at. And think what it would have meant to Harrison this year.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 10:45:47 pm
And correspondingly, of that 16,500 only a small percentage would be in high school in Wynne as well. I think your argument here is very weak. MDXPHD's example of Missouri is very interesting. I guess that is what I am unartfully suggesting. PA's results on a consistent basis is saying it's time they were in 6A.
I agree. Does that solve the problem?
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 10:47:59 pm
I agree. Does that solve the problem?
It will when PA goes 6A. Of course, if Wynne moves down to 4A, I'll probably have to do this all over again for Shiloh Christian. And I won't care if LRCA and PA are beating the dog snot out of Batesville.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 10:47:41 pm
Works for me. Not a penalty to PA if that is the level they consistently play at. And think what it would have meant to Harrison this year.
I agree that it is not a penalty. If a team can compete at a higher level they should welcome the competition. I don't know if PA could win championships in 6A but they could compete. So I'm in favor of it.
But I'll give you a counter viewpoint from one of my favorite Wynne posters. FD4 was opposed to moving PA out of 5A because he thought Wynne should test themselves against the best. He said "if you want to be the man you have to beat the man."
I really wish more fans had that attitude.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 10:47:59 pm
I agree. Does that solve the problem?
AAA is the only one that can solve the problem. I see nothing wrong with this thread going on, everyone is being respectful, nothing wrong with a healthy discussion between grown ups.
Quote from: StingEm on November 25, 2019, 10:55:02 pm
It will when PA goes 6A. Of course, if Wynne moves down to 4A, I'll probably have to do this all over again for Shiloh Christain. And I won't care if LRCA and PA are beating the dog snot out of Batesville.
+1 for honesty!
Quote from: JacketFan on November 25, 2019, 10:56:27 pm
AAA is the only one that can solve the problem. I see nothing wrong with this thread going on, everyone is being respectful, nothing wrong with a healthy discussion between grown ups.
I agree except for the point that we agree. If we agree, what's the point?
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 10:58:25 pm
I agree except for the point that we agree. If we agree, what's the point?
Even if an argument seems to be settled in the moment, much of the thinking it provokes takes place after the fact. Winning and losing are only temporary. The best arguments are best considered as jumping-off points—places from which we can start learning.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 10:55:49 pm
I agree that it is not a penalty. If a team can compete at a higher level they should welcome the competition. I don't know if PA could win championships in 6A but they could compete. So I'm in favor of it.
But I'll give you a counter viewpoint from one of my favorite Wynne posters. FD4 was opposed to moving PA out of 5A because he thought Wynne should test themselves against the best. He said "if you want to be the man you have to beat the man."
I really wish more fans had that attitude.
I'm all for beating the man to be the man...
when both teams are playing on a level playing field.
I like the old Texas saying, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."
Quote from: JacketFan on November 25, 2019, 11:14:57 pm
Even if an argument seems to be settled in the moment, much of the thinking it provokes takes place after the fact. Winning and losing are only temporary. The best arguments are best considered as jumping-off points—places from which we can start learning.
Don't kid yourself Jacketfan. We're being dismissed. I'm starting to get JessieP's ire.
Quote from: PA Dad on November 25, 2019, 10:14:24 pm
Here is my problem with the current status of this thread. Virtually every private poster admits that private schools have socioeconomic advantages. Not all, but most private posters agree that success advancement is the best solution. So why argue anymore when most of us agree. Why don't we lobby our representatives to the AAA or our legislators to implement success advancement? It occurs to me that maybe that would be more productive than complaining on a message board.
I'm working on that. Have been for a bit now.
The thread continues because there are new posters who don't want to read 38 pages. Additionally, other states implement new methods to try to even it out and they get brought up here. No reason to just kill the thread now that we all admit something needs to be done.
Am I correct in saying that Mississippi has both a public school football league and a private school football league? What about the other bordering states?
The AAA doesn't seem to oppose long travel distances within conferences or playoffs, so why not cross state lines and compete with other states' private school leagues in addition to in-state private schools? Private schools seem to already have a proclivity for playing out-of-state schools. Why not eliminate the disproportionate advantages by having everyone play in their own category?
Not sure putting the private schools in a dedicated league is the answer either. That would be a 9 team category where the majority of the teams are small schools. I don't think that benefits anyone.
If PA wanted to be in 6A all they have to do is petition AAA and its done. They don't want to be in 6A is the issue. ::)
Quote from: Sterilee on November 27, 2019, 08:54:39 am
If PA wanted to be in 6A all they have to do is petition AAA and its done. They don't want to be in 6A is the issue. ::)
Yeah, that's wrong. You also have to have a 6A team drop to 5A.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 27, 2019, 09:43:46 am
Yeah, that's wrong. You also have to have a 6A team drop to 5A.
Yep, they could replace Sheridan or Jacksonville.
Quote from: Sterilee on November 27, 2019, 10:47:24 am
Yep, they could replace Sheridan or Jacksonville.
That requires a waiver for a 6A team to get to play 5A despite having a 6A enrollment. There's a whole ripple effect in moving one team.
I would like PA to play 6A, but I don't think it's so easy. I also note this only applies in football, as PA other team sports largely would be punished by moving up.
Quote from: Sterilee on November 27, 2019, 08:54:39 am
If PA wanted to be in 6A all they have to do is petition AAA and its done. They don't want to be in 6A is the issue. ::)
Check your schedule next year...you might find your answer....;)
Maybe going forward the AAA can let the losers of the semi final games play a "public school championship" game in 5A.
There's a chance 3a, 4a & 5a will all have private school champions this year
Quote from: Sterilee on November 27, 2019, 10:47:24 am
Yep, they could replace Sheridan or Jacksonville.
Jacksonville will already be in 5A next year. May want to check the most up to date numbers which were used for the 2020-2021 cycle.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on November 27, 2019, 10:49:58 am
That requires a waiver for a 6A team to get to play 5A despite having a 6A enrollment. There's a whole ripple effect in moving one team.
I would like PA to play 6A, but I don't think it's so easy. I also note this only applies in football, as PA other team sports largely would be punished by moving up.
Had anyone thought that with PA gone, that Greenwood could possibly move back to the West with Pea Ridge entering for the 1st time and move Vilonia to the Central like they did with Maumelle
Let's not keep score... flip a coin to see who wins?
If that hurts anyone's feelings, call the game a draw?
bottom line there is a serious advantage. AAA won't do anything about it. Until the playing field is evened get used to being second best to all the private schools
Quote from: Sasquatch71 on December 02, 2019, 11:09:17 am
bottom line there is a serious advantage. AAA won't do anything about it. Until the playing field is evened get used to being second best to all the private schools
That kind of thinking makes a team lose. Can you imagine a public school coach saying, "You know guys, we don't have a chance this year. Let's get out there and lose!"
Quote from: HeberFan on December 02, 2019, 11:12:07 am
That kind of thinking makes a team lose. Can you imagine a public school coach saying, "You know guys, we don't have a chance this year. Let's get out there and lose!"
Didn't say it can't be done. Just saying they have a legitimate advantage. It is glaringly obvious. It has been done and can be done again. The advantage can not be argued. Any given Friday any team can be beat but it is always an uphill battle when playing against schools that get the cream of the crop from a hugely more populated area.
Quote from: Sasquatch71 on December 02, 2019, 12:42:13 pm
Didn't say it can't be done. Just saying they have a legitimate advantage. It is glaringly obvious. It has been done and can be done again. The advantage can not be argued. Any given Friday any team can be beat but it is always an uphill battle when playing against schools that get the cream of the crop from a hugely more populated area.
Ivy League graduates get better job offers. It's just freedom of choice.
St. John Bosco in California has a little over 800 students, and plays in California's highest classification full of schools with 2000 students. Texas separates their public and private schools. Something to think about.
Public schools are largely funded by property taxes.
"Wealthy, elite private school parents" pay lots and lots of property taxes. So, those parents are paying to educate public school students, then pay again, to educate private school students.
Hmmmmm…..
Quote from: HeberFan on December 03, 2019, 09:06:16 am
Public schools are largely funded by property taxes.
"Wealthy, elite private school parents" pay lots and lots of property taxes. So, those parents are paying to educate public school students, then pay again, to educate private school students.
Hmmmmm.....
and your point? Financing is not the point. It is the fact they can give "academic" financial aid.
Quote from: Sasquatch71 on December 03, 2019, 09:12:27 am
and your point? Financing is not the point. It is the fact they can give "academic" financial aid.
Private schools can't give private financial aid? Sure they can.
If money is the overall problem, just lobby to quintuple the Arkansas property taxes.
Private schools should play each other in playoffs. Sure there's an asterisk by champ but let's be honest there is already. No disrespect to PA or any other. But the small towns wait for a certain group or their turn if you will. One new transfer or whatever it's over. Just my opinion. Not gonna happen I know. But it would put to rest a lot of issues.
I think Bryant needs to move up. Two championships in a row and it looks like they will make it three. Oh, wait, they're public, it doesn't matter.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 06, 2019, 10:18:21 pm
I think Bryant needs to move up. Two championships in a row and it looks like they will make it three. Oh, wait, they're public, it doesn't matter.
I think they are going to restart the AIC so Bryant can move up.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 06, 2019, 10:18:21 pm
I think Bryant needs to move up. Two championships in a row and it looks like they will make it three. Oh, wait, they're public, it doesn't matter.
So they've won 2 in 100 years there has been a school in Bryant
PA has won how many in their 35 year existence?
Private schools make up less than 10% of the schools in AR yet take home about 20% of the trophies most years. Their coaches are NOT that good.
The success advancement is the dumbest thing ever. The only way to make most public school supporters happy is separating, nothing less will do. Until that day you'll have to defend your "winning" ways on this board.
Quote from: Bayou Bully on December 06, 2019, 10:34:48 pm
So they've won 2 in 100 years there has been a school in Bryant
PA has won how many in their 35 year existence?
Private schools make up less than 10% of the schools in AR yet take home about 20% of the trophies most years. Their coaches are NOT that good.
The success advancement is the dumbest thing ever. The only way to make most public school supporters happy is separating, nothing less will do. Until that day you'll have to defend your "winning" ways on this board.
Keep crying. When you can't compete you blame everyone. Look at the losers. They blame the system, the officials, the classifications, etc. Quit whining and get better.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 06, 2019, 10:45:56 pm
Keep crying. When you can't compete you blame everyone. Look at the losers. They blame the system, the officials, the classifications, etc. Quit whining and get better.
HAHA. Great advice! Someone is mad that his Alma mater lost. Starting to sound like a true PA fan now.
Quote from: Sasquatch71 on December 03, 2019, 09:12:27 am
and your point? Financing is not the point. It is the fact they can give "academic" financial aid.
Every single kid in a public school gets financial aid.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 06, 2019, 10:45:56 pm
Keep crying. When you can't compete you blame everyone. Look at the losers. They blame the system, the officials, the classifications, etc. Quit whining and get better.
I stated a couple facts, gave an opinion, and get attacked with name calling?
When you can't compete with the truth, you resort to name calling because you believe everyone is beneath you.
Quit name calling and get some class.
Quote from: Bayou Bully on December 07, 2019, 08:10:12 am
I stated a couple facts, gave an opinion, and get attacked with name calling?
When you can't compete with the truth, you resort to name calling because you believe everyone is beneath you.
Quit name calling and get some class.
Why don't you like success advancement?
Quote from: StingEm on December 07, 2019, 01:31:44 pm
Why don't you like success advancement?
Punishing future teams for past successes is not a good plan in my opinion. Especially for the lower classes.
If you want a real "Solution" to the debate about "Private schools v. Public Schools", then please look at my post "Solution for Private School Classification".
https://forums.fearlessfriday.com/index.php?topic=161017.0
Quote from: WTD on November 25, 2019, 10:27:20 pm
You left off the biggest recruiter in LR. Parkview, D1 talent all over the field. Why didn't they win more in 5a? Well...
I think Robinson took the recruiting title from them this year.
The idea of making "winning programs move up" feels like an effort to achieve equality of outcome... not equality of opportunity. Feels like communism.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 09, 2019, 09:09:50 am
The idea of making "winning programs move up" feels like an effort to acheieve equality of outcome... not equality of opportunity. Feels like communism.
Yes, it's communism. Communism has infiltrated all aspects of our daily lives. Not allowing 250lb boxers to fight 128lb boxers, communism. Not allowing college age adults to play high school sports, communism. Staggering the outside lanes in a 400 meter sprint, communism. Not allowing brass knuckles under boxing gloves, filed down metal spikes on football shoes, defensive players allowed to use mace during a game and PED's, all communism.
As a lifelong conservative who abhors big government I am the first to admit that in certain things we do need an authority figure or governing body to step in and say, knock it off, that's unfair.
The ultimate irony is your own words. The whole issue is that there is a glaring inequality of outcome because of the massive inequality of opportunity.
Quote from: JessieP on December 09, 2019, 10:13:08 am
Yes, it's communism. Communism has infiltrated all aspects of our daily lives. Not allowing 250lb boxers to fight 128lb boxers, communism. Not allowing college age adults to play high school sports, communism. Staggering the outside lanes in a 400 meter sprint, communism. Not allowing brass knuckles under boxing gloves, filed down metal spikes on football shoes, defensive players allowed to use mace during a game and PED's, all communism.
As a lifelong conservative who abhors big government I am the first to admit that in certain things we do need an authority figure or governing body to step in and say, knock it off, that's unfair.
The ultimate irony is your own words. The whole issue is that there is a glaring inequality of outcome because of the massive inequality of opportunity.
Massive inequality of opportunity? I think not. Countless people in America have "come from nothing" to become a success. Below is a link to an article about 21 people who grew up in poverty, then, became billionaires.
https://www.businessinsider.com/billionaires-who-came-from-nothing-2013-12
Quote from: HeberFan on December 09, 2019, 10:22:45 am
Massive inequality of opportunity? I think not. Countless people in America have "come from nothing" to become a success. Below is a link to an article about 21 people who grew up in poverty, then, became billionaires.
https://www.businessinsider.com/billionaires-who-came-from-nothing-2013-12
Now that's a reach. You can't be serious. Why don't you post a list of people who survived jumping out of a plane and had the parachute not open, and survived. Or people who have survived plane crashes or maybe 6 gun shots to the torso. All those list exist. Yes, overcoming insurmountable odds happens but most logical people don't bank on it. I just don't get why you've embraced telling teenage kids "Your mommy and daddy don't make enough money, too bad"
Quote from: JessieP on December 09, 2019, 10:37:48 am
Now that's a reach. You can't be serious. Why don't you post a list of people who survived jumping out of a plane and had the parachute not open, and survived. Or people who have survived plane crashes or maybe 6 gun shots to the torso. All those list exist. Yes, overcoming insurmountable odds happens but most logical people don't bank on it. I just don't get why you've embraced telling teenage kids "Your mommy and daddy don't make enough money, too bad"
Nobody "banks" on overcoming long odds. But why should anyone give up, and see themselves as destined, to less than a great life? "Successful" people tend to outwork others, and, sacrifice to do it. Under your reasoning, every team that finds itself way behind in a game, should just quit.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 09, 2019, 10:42:12 am
Nobody "banks" on overcoming long odds. But why should anyone give up, and see themselves as destined, to less than a great life? "Successful" people tend to outwork others, and, sacrifice to do it. Under your reasoning, every team that finds itself way behind in a game, should just quit.
Tell ya what, let's have Heber play football in the CIF (California Interscholastic Federation) Southern Section. A quick Google search shows it's by far the best section in the country for high school football. After playing De La Salle, St John Bosch, Corona Del Mar, Long Beach Poly and Servite you could address the Heber boys before the Mater Dei game and tell them "Come on guys, it's all equal, they field 11 and we field 11, the field is 100 x 55 just like in Arkansas, if we just work hard we can beat them, everyone join in...we all know that ant can't, move a rubber tree plant but he's got high hopes, he's got high hopes..."
I'm sorry to sound rude, I usually find your post to have some merit but these recent "Inspirational poster" posts of your are ludicrous bordering on dumb.
Quote from: JessieP on December 09, 2019, 11:31:28 am
Tell ya what, let's have Heber play football in the CIF (California Interscholastic Federation) Southern Section. A quick Google search shows it's by far the best section in the country for high school football. After playing De La Salle, St John Bosch, Corona Del Mar, Long Beach Poly and Servite you could address the Heber boys before the Mater Dei game and tell them "Come on guys, it's all equal, they field 11 and we field 11, the field is 100 x 55 just like in Arkansas, if we just work hard we can beat them, everyone join in...we all know that ant can't, move a rubber tree plant but he's got high hopes, he's got high hopes..."
I'm sorry to sound rude, I usually find your post to have some merit but these recent "Inspirational poster" posts of your are ludicrous bordering on dumb.
Having the same CHANCE to reach a goal, is vastly different, than having the same OPPORTUNITY to reach a goal. Some goals are simply not obtainable, even if the opportunity is there. Only two percent of NCAA athletes go on to play pro sports. The biggest, fastest and strongest get drafted. The other 98 percent try to find other employment. Nothing unfair about that.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 09, 2019, 12:19:00 pm
Having the same CHANCE to reach a goal, is vastly different, than having the same OPPORTUNITY to reach a goal. Some goals are simply not obtainable, even if the opportunity is there. Only two percent of NCAA athletes go on to play pro sports. The biggest, fastest and strongest get drafted. The other 98 percent try to find other employment. Nothing unfair about that.
And that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this debate, nothing.
Quote from: JessieP on December 09, 2019, 12:22:11 pm
And that has absolutely NOTHING to do with this debate, nothing.
It has everything to do with the debate, which is, how and if the AAA should enforce rules which might make public and private school more equal in athletic activity outcome.
Quote from: hoops guy on November 22, 2019, 01:14:29 pm
Got a bad taste for privates a while back because of P.A. There was a very good athlete from a public school that was academically ineligible to play his freshman year at his school. Not only did he get in to P.A., which supposedly has high entrance standards for academics, he received financial assistance. He was an outstanding football and basketball player for three years at P.A. He eventually went on to be a very gifted player at Louisiana Tech. Is there a reason why a kid that is academically ineligible at a public school can academically qualify for entrance at P.A.? My disdain for privates somewhat cooled because our school ended up in conference with Harding Academy shortly after this and they seemed to be doing everything by the book. I purposely did not put the young man's name and where he came from on here, because I don't blame him at all. It is a system problem and not a kid problem.
I appreciated reading this. HA has it's own set of advantages that some public schools don't have... But I also think they have their own set of drawbacks relative to private schools in urban areas. And i've very much seen the ebb and flow of talent that comes through HA. When we're good, obviously we're really good, but we definitely have down cycles.
No way I have the time to go through some almost 2,000 posts on this thread to read everyone's thoughts. I won't deny that private schools have some advantages that other schools don't have. That said, other than already playing up a classification, I'm not really sure what there is to do about it. And rumblings i've heard in the last few years is that arkansas is close to passing a voucher program. Alabama is an example of a state with it. I'm not sure that will help the situation much. Probably not what most here hopes to happen, but it's possible in the relatively near future.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 09, 2019, 09:09:50 am
The idea of making "winning programs move up" feels like an effort to achieve equality of outcome... not equality of opportunity. Feels like communism.
Wouldn't "equality of outcome = Darwinism (survival of the fittest). And "equality of opportunity = Socialism?
So, based on those principles, shouldn't Darwinism prevail over Socialism?
Darwinism - Survival of the fittest, and only the "strong survive" and must thrive on getting stronger and beating tougher competition?
Vs. Socialism - in which the "strong prevail", but must also provide for the weak, and give "equal opportunity/modifications for an equal chance of success"?
Quote from: Gabe H. Coud on December 10, 2019, 12:43:56 am
Wouldn't "equality of outcome = Darwinism (survival of the fittest). And "equality of opportunity = Socialism?
You got it backwards.
Quote from: Gabe H. Coud on December 10, 2019, 12:43:56 am
Wouldn't "equality of outcome = Darwinism (survival of the fittest). And "equality of opportunity = Socialism?
So, based on those principles, shouldn't Darwinism prevail over Socialism?
Darwinism - Survival of the fittest, and only the "strong survive" and must thrive on getting stronger and beating tougher competition?
Vs. Socialism - in which the "strong prevail", but must also provide for the weak, and give "equal opportunity/modifications for an equal chance of success"?
Without debating the definition of social systems, the point is that punishing success is a bad idea.
I've heard it all on this thread but I just have to post this.
In the 4A championship game a public school mercy ruled a private school ( how the heck did that happen with all the advantages private schools have?). But, if you read the championship thread on the 4A board, it's the public school that's accused of recruiting! I find that rather ironic.
It just shows that Baitshop was right. It's in the DNA of FF that if you're winning you're cheating.
Quote from: Go Postal on November 30, 2019, 06:18:19 am
Had anyone thought that with PA gone, that Greenwood could possibly move back to the West with Pea Ridge entering for the 1st time and move Vilonia to the Central like they did with Maumelle
Actually, if PA petitioned to go to 6A, the first team asked to drop to 5A would be Little Rock Parkview, which falls at No. 32 in the 2020-22 cycle enrollment numbers. Now, that being said, if Parkview didn't want to drop down, then the next school asked would be Greenwood, which is at No. 31.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 14, 2019, 12:02:43 am
I've heard it all on this thread but I just have to post this.
In the 4A championship game a public school mercy ruled a private school ( how the heck did that happen with all the advantages private schools have?). But, if you read the championship thread on the 4A board, it's the public school that's accused of recruiting! I find that rather ironic.
It just shows that Baitshop was right. It's in the DNA of FF that if you're winning you're cheating.
Haven't even looked at the thread - but LR people have been on Robinson for years about pulling kids. Chief said it just the other day I think.
You go back and forth. Backhanded comments about advantages like the one above them the politically correct comments admitting there are advantages and you'd like a solution. Depends on the day, I guess.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 14, 2019, 12:02:43 am
I've heard it all on this thread but I just have to post this.
In the 4A championship game a public school mercy ruled a private school ( how the heck did that happen with all the advantages private schools have?). But, if you read the championship thread on the 4A board, it's the public school that's accused of recruiting! I find that rather ironic.
It just shows that Baitshop was right. It's in the DNA of FF that if you're winning you're cheating.
I like the rationale, I like it a lot! Let's use it. There is no competitive advantage because a private school got mercy ruled, quad erat demonstrandum. The CDC estimates up to 4% of Americans are addicted to opioids, proof there is no crisis. The FBI says that 99.8% of abducted children are found safe within 24 hours. Stop worrying parents, let them take that ride home from a stranger. So yes, let's embrace the exception and claim it dispels the myth that private schools have a massive advantage.
Can we finally address one teeny tiny itty bitty moronic point that many bring up? While recruiting/transferring may be the norm in high population areas it's not the same. PUBLIC SCHOOLS DON'T HAND PICK THEIR STUDENTS! PUBLIC SCHOOLS CAN'T REFUSE STUDENTS. YOU DON'T NEED FINANCIAL AID TO ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Why do people not get that? Can a wealthy parent of PA student wake up one Monday morning and say "come on jr, we're going to go enroll you at Fair" and have that student walk from the main office directly into a classroom? YES. Can a lower income parent of a student at Fair wake up Monday morning and do the same thing at a private school? ZERO CHANCE. can we please stop with the "public schools recruit" argument? Geez, the zombies on the walking dead can come up with a more lucid point.
Quote from: MDXPHD on December 14, 2019, 07:08:30 am
Haven't even looked at the thread - but LR people have been on Robinson for years about pulling kids. Chief said it just the other day I think.
You go back and forth. Backhanded comments about advantages like the one above them the politically correct comments admitting there are advantages and you'd like a solution. Depends on the day, I guess.
Yeah I brought it up earlier this week. It's the worst-kept secret in Pulaski County, outside maybe my identity among some folks in Maumelle who follow FF.
I'm bumping this thread for Sweet Feet and other posters who haven't been on the board for long.
If you're concerned with private schools, read this. It has every conceivable argument on both sides of the argument. And if you're not willing to read it, then just be quiet.
if there was a public/private school split like how some states do, i can see the arrangement being like this:
11-man league
Division I
CAC
LR Catholic
LR Christian
Pulaski Academy
Shiloh Christian
Division II
Baptist Prep
Conway Christian
LR Episcopal (sorry, their enrollment is 3A level)
Harding Academy
Subiaco Academy
8-man league
Abundant Life
Arkansas Christian Academy
Lee Academy
Marvell Academy
Southwest Christian Academy
Trinity Christian (Texarkana)
Union Christian Academy
West Memphis Christian.
Too much work to make a supposed, artificially "fair" system. No system is totally fair in school or afterwards. Here's an easy idea, borrowed from horse racing: strap a 30-pound weight belt on all the private school kids. :o)
Quote from: Sweet Feet on October 27, 2020, 09:18:00 am
if there was a public/private school split like how some states do, i can see the arrangement being like this:
11-man league
Division I
CAC
LR Catholic
LR Christian
Pulaski Academy
Shiloh Christian
Division II
Baptist Prep
Conway Christian
LR Episcopal (sorry, their enrollment is 3A level)
Harding Academy
Subiaco Academy
8-man league
Abundant Life
Arkansas Christian Academy
Lee Academy
Marvell Academy
Southwest Christian Academy
Trinity Christian (Texarkana)
Union Christian Academy
West Memphis Christian.
This would actually be great. For Subiaco specifically
Quote from: Sweet Feet on October 27, 2020, 09:18:00 am
if there was a public/private school split like how some states do, i can see the arrangement being like this:
11-man league
Division I
CAC
LR Catholic
LR Christian
Pulaski Academy
Shiloh Christian
Division II
Baptist Prep
Conway Christian
LR Episcopal (sorry, their enrollment is 3A level)
Harding Academy
Subiaco Academy
8-man league
Abundant Life
Arkansas Christian Academy
Lee Academy
Marvell Academy
Southwest Christian Academy
Trinity Christian (Texarkana)
Union Christian Academy
West Memphis Christian.
Goodness. HA would just start their own ring company.
This thread summed up in 40 pages....
Private school kids are half robot, half human creatures who can never be beaten by the public school peasants 8)
YAWN, who cares????? Just play ball, they are all kids. Some are richer, more are poorer. Football is football.
Quote from: InYoGrill on October 27, 2020, 04:26:04 pm
YAWN, who cares????? Just play ball, they are all kids. Some are richer, more are poorer. Football is football.
Thank you
It's nauseating
Play ball
Root em on
52 points. Both Private schools winning score
PA 52 Wynne 14
LRCA 52 Harrison 28
Awaiting private vs public thread renewed. LOL
JessieP? MX?
Quote from: Go Postal on December 04, 2020, 09:31:29 pm
52 points. Both Private schools winning score
PA 52 Wynne 14
LRCA 52 Harrison 28
Awaiting private vs public thread renewed. LOL
JessieP? MX?
Oh I think its popping up in other threads already. LOL!
Posty, here is my post in the PA v. Wynne thread:
Wynne has a really good football team. Congrats on a great season.
The truth is that Wynne played a team that should be playing in 7A. I've maintained the last 3-4 years that PA should move up. It's no fun to watch blow outs. It's not fair to 5A teams to have to play a team that plays on a 7A level. Wynne and/or Harrison should be in the championship game this year.
PA's dominance is not due to recruiting. It's not due to cheating. It's because Kelley has built a monster.
I'm calling on the AAA to move PA up whether they like it or not.
I wish they had a 3rd place game this year. I watched both games and I think it would be as exciting as the championship game. The 4 best teams were in the semis this year. I don't always agree about the private/public difference. You just have to win. I've seen many private/public soccer games, especially the Lady Bruins and Lady Goblins (two of the best teams in the entire State) and you just have to win. Period. The same in any sport.
Quote from: Go Postal on December 04, 2020, 10:04:56 pm
I wish they had a 3rd place game this year. I watched both games and I think it would be as exciting as the championship game. The 4 best teams were in the semis this year. I don't always agree about the private/public difference. You just have to win. I've seen many private/public soccer games, especially the Lady Bruins and Lady Goblins (two of the best teams in the entire State) and you just have to win. Period. The same in any sport.
I would definitely watch a Harrison/Wynne matchup. Both a great football teams.
And another private school (Harding Academy) beat Booneville 52-21
And Shiloh... so tired of this BS.
Clearly, 52 is the new mark of the Beast.
Quote from: Go Postal on December 04, 2020, 10:04:56 pm
I wish they had a 3rd place game this year. I watched both games and I think it would be as exciting as the championship game. The 4 best teams were in the semis this year. I don't always agree about the private/public difference. You just have to win. I've seen many private/public soccer games, especially the Lady Bruins and Lady Goblins (two of the best teams in the entire State) and you just have to win. Period. The same in any sport.
Here in Texarkana we dont agree that Harrison was any better than us! Agree to disagree lol
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 05, 2020, 08:43:26 am
Here in Texarkana we dont agree that Harrison was any better than us! Agree to disagree lol
If moral victories make you feel better, go for it.
Quote from: The_Pioneer on December 05, 2020, 11:59:29 am
If moral victories make you feel better, go for it.
I guess I will go for it!
Quote from: The_Pioneer on December 05, 2020, 11:59:29 am
If moral victories make you feel better, go for it.
Wynne won the public school title against Texarkana.
We also need to put Bryant and Greenwood in their own conferences to be fair to 7 and 6 A schools. Bryant has won 30 straight games and 3 state titles. Greenwood has won 10 state championships this century. It's not fair for one school to win so much and the other schools to have to finish second. Let's get them in their own conference.
Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 06, 2020, 08:54:33 am
We also need to put Bryant and Greenwood in their own conferences to be fair to 7 and 6 A schools. Bryant has won 30 straight games and 3 state titles. Greenwood has won 10 state championships this century. It's not fair for one school to win so much and the other schools to have to finish second. Let's get them in their own conference.
I've not heard of other states separating teams out for winning to much. I have heard of other states separating out private schools from public schools. I asked this on another thread and for some reason no one has answered so I will try it here. Does anyone know which states have put private schools in their own league? Looking for a list of those states. Also, I think it would be interesting to see their reasons for doing so.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 06, 2020, 09:43:18 am
I've not heard of other states separating teams out for winning to much. I have heard of other states separating out private schools from public schools. I asked this on another thread and for some reason no one has answered so I will try it here. Does anyone know which states have put private schools in their own league? Looking for a list of those states. Also, I think it would be interesting to see their reasons for doing so.
Florida has private-only classifications I know... Much easier to do in a state of 20 million-plus people and 4 huge metropolitan areas.
The thought of Arkansas with its 8-12 private schools in which play football having its own league would just be laughable. There aren't even close to enough teams. Once you start having 25-35 private schools I could see you then having enough teams to split it into two divisions. Arkansas will never have the population for that.
Quote from: beach bum on December 06, 2020, 09:47:18 am
Florida has private-only classifications I know... Much easier to do in a state of 20 million-plus people and 4 huge metropolitan areas.
The thought of Arkansas with its 8-12 private schools in which play football having its own league would just be laughable. There aren't even close to enough teams. Once you start having 25-35 private schools I could see you then having enough teams to split it into two divisions. Arkansas will never have the population for that.
I appreciate your answer beach bum, and I understand the population problems and the challenges that would create. I'm not saying I disagree that is an issue. I just feel that is a separate topic from what I'm asking. Why would a state separate private schools from public schools? What are the actual reasons it's happened and in how many states? I think once you've answered those questions you can then compare/apply to what's going on in Arkansas. If (notice I said "if") it's found that private schools have some unfair advantages (I'm not saying they do or don't), then I can hear the public schools say "it shouldn't be our problem that there aren't enough private schools for a league"...or "that shouldn't be the reason it's okay for a few private schools to have an unfair advantage". Its a tremendous red flag that other states are separating private from public schools, and we need to be thorough and investigate why they are doing it. It's time to dig into this topic in a fair and unbiased manner.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 06, 2020, 10:00:49 am
I appreciate your answer beach bum, and I understand the population problems and the challenges that would create. I'm not saying I disagree that is an issue. I just feel that is a separate topic from what I'm asking. Why would a state separate private schools from public schools? What are the actual reasons it's happened and in how many states? I think once you've answered those questions you can then compare/apply to what's going on in Arkansas. If (notice I said "if") it's found that private schools have some unfair advantages (I'm not saying they do or don't), then I can hear the public schools say "it shouldn't be our problem that there aren't enough private schools for a league"...or "that shouldn't be the reason it's okay for a few private schools to have an unfair advantage". Its a tremendous red flag that other states are separating private from public schools, and we need to be thorough and investigate why they are doing it. It's time to dig into this topic in a fair and unbiased manner.
This has been thoroughly and intellectually discussed in a thread on this board named "public v. private." If you're really interested, look it up.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 06, 2020, 10:22:34 am
This has been thoroughly and intellectually discussed in a thread on this board named "public v. private." If you're really interested, look it up.
Respectfully sir, I'll leave my question here as it's simply a question. Which other states separate private schools from public schools and does anyone know some of the reasons why?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 06, 2020, 10:37:13 am
Respectfully sir, I'll leave my question here as it's simply a question. Which other states separate private schools from public schools and does anyone know some of the reasons why?
The question is fully answered in the thread that PA Dad referenced. Stop being lazy and go read.
I read for about 10 min and haven't found the answer to my question. I'm sure it's somewhere in those 40 pages lol. That's why I decided to type the question here. Not trying to be lazy. Sounds like you know that thread well, it would be easy for you to take 2 minutes to type some states to answer the question?
5a is just not where PA should play.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 06, 2020, 11:10:33 am
I read for about 10 min and haven't found the answer to my question. I'm sure it's somewhere in those 40 pages lol. That's why I decided to type the question here. Not trying to be lazy. Sounds like you know that thread well, it would be easy for you to take 2 minutes to type some states to answer the question?
Too bad. Go look for yourself or get over it.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 06, 2020, 10:37:13 am
Respectfully sir, I'll leave my question here as it's simply a question. Which other states separate private schools from public schools and does anyone know some of the reasons why?
"Compilation of how all 50 states handle competitive balance"
https://www.cleveland.com/highschoolsports/article/ohsaas-competitive-balance-referendum-the-latest-round-in-a-national-fight-between-public-and-private-schools/
Texas appears to have separate public /private playoffs. Texas is the Mecca of high school football. Georgia too. Louisana has in the past and still may. Some other states do too. The debate is national and ongoing.
See also:
https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/4608/how-does-your-state-s-high-school-tournament-compare-with-other-states
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 06, 2020, 09:43:18 am
I've not heard of other states separating teams out for winning to much. I have heard of other states separating out private schools from public schools. I asked this on another thread and for some reason no one has answered so I will try it here. Does anyone know which states have put private schools in their own league? Looking for a list of those states. Also, I think it would be interesting to see their reasons for doing so.
To my knowledge, Mississippi has had a private school league for about 50 years.
The best way I have seen explained to handle private school classification is to not base it off actual enrollment in the school, because they can cap that themselves unlike public schools. Base it off the, for a lack of a better word, "recruitment" base. The LR privates have and area to pull kids from with a population of 200,000 + Where as schools like Harrison and Wynne have a total population of 15000 MAYBE. Since the privates can pull from a 7A population they should be in 7A sports. Seems logical and I have no doubt they could compete at that level.
Quote from: Sasquatch71 on December 07, 2020, 08:37:18 am
The best way I have seen explained to handle private school classification is to not base it off actual enrollment in the school, because they can cap that themselves unlike public schools. Base it off the, for a lack of a better word, "recruitment" base. The LR privates have and area to pull kids from with a population of 200,000 + Where as schools like Harrison and Wynne have a total population of 15000 MAYBE. Since the privates can pull from a 7A population they should be in 7A sports. Seems logical and I have no doubt they could compete at that level.
lol
It's just one of them things about high school football. Some teams are better than others. Some teams can't ever win. And some teams just downright dominate everyone they play. And everything comes in cycles.
This topic has been debated so much that there's basically nothing new to say. But as far as whether or not PA should move up or play in an all private classification, I believe the best option for everyone is to merge 7A and 6A and then move PA up. If they simply moved up to the current 6A, then just like their current situation, there would only be 1 or 2, maybe 3 on a special year, that have a shot at beating them. And if they simply move up to the current 7A, then yes there would be a few more teams than in 6A or 5A that could beat them. But in a 10 or 11 game season, numbers would hurt them. Thats just the reality of having 16 team conferences.
However if we were to merge the 7A and 6A, instead of having 3 noncon tests and then cruising through to the championship game, it would give PA most likely 2 or 3 conference foes who could beat them as well as having an entire playoff bracket of teams who could beat them.
I've seen people all for an all private classification. Well, if people don't like the fact that PA is dominating a class of 31 other teams, do you really think it would be any different in a class of all private schools? PA's road to a championship game with LRC would be even easier than it is now. Do you really think the likes of LR Catholic, Shiloh, Harding Academy, CAC, Conway Christian, or any of the others I can't think of or don't know could challenge PA any better than Harrison or Wynne? PA Dad mentioned earlier that blow out wins every single game aren't fun and it not being fair to the rest of the 5A. Well unless I'm missing something (which is definitely a possibility as I am not a private school expert by any means), then I don't think anything would change in an all private school classification.
But I guess in the end, it don't matter where they end up. They can keep on winning and dominating. Just as long as it's not in 5A right?
Quote from: The Future on December 07, 2020, 09:13:09 am
It's just one of them things about high school football. Some teams are better than others. Some teams can't ever win. And some teams just downright dominate everyone they play. And everything comes in cycles.
This topic has been debated so much that there's basically nothing new to say. But as far as whether or not PA should move up or play in an all private classification, I believe the best option for everyone is to merge 7A and 6A and then move PA up. If they simply moved up to the current 6A, then just like their current situation, there would only be 1 or 2, maybe 3 on a special year, that have a shot at beating them. And if they simply move up to the current 7A, then yes there would be a few more teams than in 6A or 5A that could beat them. But in a 10 or 11 game season, numbers would hurt them. Thats just the reality of having 16 team conferences.
However if we were to merge the 7A and 6A, instead of having 3 noncon tests and then cruising through to the championship game, it would give PA most likely 2 or 3 conference foes who could beat them as well as having an entire playoff bracket of teams who could beat them.
I've seen people all for an all private classification. Well, if people don't like the fact that PA is dominating a class of 31 other teams, do you really think it would be any different in a class of all private schools? PA's road to a championship game with LRC would be even easier than it is now. Do you really think the likes of LR Catholic, Shiloh, Harding Academy, CAC, Conway Christian, or any of the others I can't think of or don't know could challenge PA any better than Harrison or Wynne? PA Dad mentioned earlier that blow out wins every single game aren't fun and it not being fair to the rest of the 5A. Well unless I'm missing something (which is definitely a possibility as I am not a private school expert by any means), then I don't think anything would change in an all private school classification.
But I guess in the end, it don't matter where they end up. They can keep on winning and dominating. Just as long as it's not in 5A right?
This sums it up pretty well. I don't know that an all private league is the answer. A 6a-7A merge would be good. Greenwood, Bryant, Bentonville and West, most years Fayetteville, Cabot. I think all of these schools could absolutely beat PA. I have even heard of some states that put all the privates in the smallest classification. This is to discourage students from going to private schools just for sports because if you are a big time athlete would you want to play in the smallest classification? I will say it because I don't see any argument, they have a distinct advantage with a 25 mile radius in the metro areas to pull kids from and the ability to limit their numbers in their schools.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 06, 2020, 12:11:21 pm
5a is just not where PA should play.
Agreed, based on student population, they should play in 3A.
I don't care if they have an unfair advantage or not. I really don't, and I will probably get slapped around for saying this. They should make their own league and get out of the AAA. If you can't or won't go to school with us, you shouldn't play with or against us. That just makes sense to me. Most people who go to private schools do so because they feel they will receive a better education there. Simply stated if public schools aren't "good enough" to educate your kids, then why do you want to play against us? Start your own league or play in private school leagues from other states. The travel shouldn't bother you because the education is so much better at your schools. Just seems very hypocritical to me for privates to want to play in public leagues but not go to public schools! Now slap away!!!!!
Quote from: hoops guy on December 07, 2020, 09:58:12 am
I don't care if they have an unfair advantage or not. I really don't, and I will probably get slapped around for saying this. They should make their own league and get out of the AAA. If you can't or won't go to school with us, you shouldn't play with or against us. That just makes sense to me. Most people who go to private schools do so because they feel they will receive a better education there. Simply stated if public schools aren't "good enough" to educate your kids, then why do you want to play against us? Start your own league or play in private school leagues from other states. The travel shouldn't bother you because the education is so much better at your schools. Just seems very hypocritical to me for privates to want to play in public leagues but not go to public schools! Now slap away!!!!!
That makes a lot of sense agree!
Quote from: hoops guy on December 07, 2020, 09:58:12 am
I don't care if they have an unfair advantage or not. I really don't, and I will probably get slapped around for saying this. They should make their own league and get out of the AAA. If you can't or won't go to school with us, you shouldn't play with or against us. That just makes sense to me. Most people who go to private schools do so because they feel they will receive a better education there. Simply stated if public schools aren't "good enough" to educate your kids, then why do you want to play against us? Start your own league or play in private school leagues from other states. The travel shouldn't bother you because the education is so much better at your schools. Just seems very hypocritical to me for privates to want to play in public leagues but not go to public schools! Now slap away!!!!!
Taxes pay for public schools, while, parents of attending students pay for private schools. That means private school parents also help pay for public schools. They're not welcome in your world?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 07, 2020, 10:04:42 am
Taxes pay for public schools, while, parents of attending students pay for private schools. That means private school parents also help pay for public schools. They're not welcome in your world?
They are surly welcome, if they would like to come and be in it all the time. You can't pick and choose when it suits you. most people would be pretty mad if their significant other said, "Well I pay part of the bills, so I will just come home at dinner and lovin' time. The rest of the time you are on you own!"
Quote from: hoops guy on December 07, 2020, 10:12:00 am
They are surly welcome, if they would like to come and be in it all the time. You can't pick and choose when it suits you. most people would be pretty mad if their significant other said, "Well I pay part of the bills, so I will just come home at dinner and lovin' time. The rest of the time you are on you own!"
It would take Adler and Skinner to unpack that, but, kids and parents can "pick and choose" which school to attend. School districts can "pick and choose" to play nice with other districts, or not. You're a hoops guy, so, why do private schools not win many state basketball championships?
I don't have the answers everyone is looking for, but it is rather impressive what PA does year in, and year out.
Pulaski Academy Bruins have won numerous state championships:[15]
Wrestling (3x): 2018, 2019, 2020
Girls Tennis (14x): 1980–2013 including 1980, 1987, 1988, 1989, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2010, 2013
Boys Tennis (11x): 1981–2013 including 1981, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2011, 2012, 2013
Baseball (5x): 1993, 1994, 2002, 2003, 2013 5A
Girls Soccer (6x): 2003–2012
Boys Soccer (3x): 2000, 2001, 2007
Football (8x): (2003 3A), (2008 5A), (2011 4A) (2014 5A), (2015 5A), (2016 5A), (2017 5A), (2019 5A)
Boys Basketball (2x): 2002, 2003
All Golf Team (5x) : 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006
They have won their share of those as well. Harding, PA, CAC Girls, and LRCA have all won State Championships in basketball and baseball. Just like I don't care if there is an unfair advantage or not, I don't care if they win state championships or not. If you don't want to go to public schools, you shouldn't be playing against public schools. It is just very hypocritical. By going private, you separated yourselves from public school kids, except when it benefits you. The winning and losing actually has little to do with my reasoning for saying, "If you want to be separate, be separate."
Quote from: hoops guy on December 07, 2020, 10:34:20 am
They have won their share of those as well. Harding, PA, CAC Girls, and LRCA have all won State Championships in basketball and baseball. Just like I don't care if there is an unfair advantage or not, I don't care if they win state championships or not. If you don't want to go to public schools, you shouldn't be playing against public schools. It is just very hypocritical. By going private, you separated yourselves from public school kids, except when it benefits you. The winning and losing actually has little to do with my reasoning for saying, "If you want to be separate, be separate."
Public and private schools have mutually agreed to compete. They don't want to be separate. Would you have charter schools in another division?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 07, 2020, 10:41:11 am
Public and private schools have mutually agreed to compete. They don't want to be separate. Would you have charter schools in another division?
Well that part isn't true...
Quote from: SnowPatrol on December 07, 2020, 10:49:53 am
Well that part isn't true...
School districts are forced to compete in sports?
You really want to solve the private school problem. Play them in the class where their numbers fall. When PA starts beating Hackett and Charleston by 100 every year and not much college exposure because of lack of competition then PA and other privates numbers will go down.
By the way, I would love to see PA vs GW this year. Would have been a great game!
I would also love to see Kelly at a public school.
I don't care who mutually agreed! It is wrong and very hypocritical! Bottom line, this is my opinion, and you have yours. We all have different values we live by and base our believes in. This is just one of mine. I don't like hypocrites of any kind. I understand if you want your kids in private school for educational reasons, I just think if that is your route, then you should exclude yourself from all public school activities. Getting the best of both worlds is selfish and hypocritical.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 07, 2020, 10:53:03 am
School districts are forced to compete in sports?
Yes! Ask Berryville what happened a while back when they decided they weren't going to play Shiloh! AAA came up with a whole new rule. If you don't play it is a forfeit, which is fair. AAA says if you forfeit a game, you are immediately ineligible for the playoffs.
Quote from: hoops guy on December 07, 2020, 10:55:38 am
I don't care who mutually agreed! It is wrong and very hypocritical! Bottom line, this is my opinion, and you have yours. We all have different values we live by and base our believes in. This is just one of mine. I don't like hypocrites of any kind. I understand if you want your kids in private school for educational reasons, I just think if that is your route, then you should exclude yourself from all public school activities. Getting the best of both worlds is selfish and hypocritical.
So, colleges like Baylor, Miami, USC, Brighman Young, Stanford, Syracuse, etc. should not compete against public schools? You don't want Harding University in Searcy to play public schools?
Quote from: hoops guy on December 07, 2020, 10:58:54 am
Yes! Ask Berryville what happened a while back when they decided they weren't going to play Shiloh! AAA came up with a whole new rule. If you don't play it is a forfeit, which is fair. AAA says if you forfeit a game, you are immediately ineligible for the playoffs.
So, Berryville was not forced. Had a choice and made it. Cool.
Something is wrong with you high school and colleges are totally different!
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 07, 2020, 11:09:29 am
Something is wrong with you high scool and colleges are totally different!
College is optional and the kids are older. Much of the rest is similar. The claim being tested is "it's hypocritical to attend a private school and compete against public schools."
Quote from: HeberFan on December 07, 2020, 11:12:06 am
College is optional and the kids are older. Much of the rest is similar. The claim being tested is "it's hypocritical to attend a private school and compete against public schools."
YAWN!!
Maybe if you attend private school, you can only work for a private company after graduation? Only drive on private roads? Only fly in private jets? (Last one might be closer to true!)
Quote from: HeberFan on December 07, 2020, 10:53:03 am
School districts are forced to compete in sports?
Yes...you are familiar with the AAA?
Quote from: SnowPatrol on December 07, 2020, 11:44:55 am
Yes...you are familiar with the AAA?
Yes. The AAA can force schools to compete in some or all sports? What is the penalty for not competing? Does the school shut down?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 06, 2020, 10:00:49 am
I appreciate your answer beach bum, and I understand the population problems and the challenges that would create. I'm not saying I disagree that is an issue. I just feel that is a separate topic from what I'm asking. Why would a state separate private schools from public schools? What are the actual reasons it's happened and in how many states? I think once you've answered those questions you can then compare/apply to what's going on in Arkansas. If (notice I said "if") it's found that private schools have some unfair advantages (I'm not saying they do or don't), then I can hear the public schools say "it shouldn't be our problem that there aren't enough private schools for a league"...or "that shouldn't be the reason it's okay for a few private schools to have an unfair advantage". Its a tremendous red flag that other states are separating private from public schools, and we need to be thorough and investigate why they are doing it. It's time to dig into this topic in a fair and unbiased manner.
Private schools do have an unfair advantage in they can set their school size. Additionally, Pulaski is now getting tax money like a public school due to recent legislation previously discussed on FF. Most private schools draw from larger talent pools (and get many of the higher end players of those pools) than the teams they compete against.
If Harrison could just only pick the kids they want to go to their school they could clean up every year, too.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 07, 2020, 11:46:44 am
Yes. The AAA can force schools to compete in some or all sports? What is the penalty for not competing? Does the school shut down?
Do you want to play sports in Arkansas....cool...you gotta abide by the AAA rules.
Your 1st post said all schools agreed to let everyone play.....I simply said that was not true and it isn't.
Quote from: SnowPatrol on December 07, 2020, 12:20:56 pm
Do you want to play sports in Arkansas....cool...you gotta abide by the AAA rules.
Your 1st post said all schools agreed to let everyone play.....I simply said that was not true and it isn't.
Participation seems tactic approval. Doesn't mean every school likes it, but, agrees enough to participate. Much like our political climate.
Quote from: GRN R H-2 X-Deep Over on December 07, 2020, 12:03:37 pm
Private schools do have an unfair advantage in they can set their school size. Additionally, Pulaski is now getting tax money like a public school due to recent legislation previously discussed on FF. Most private schools draw from larger talent pools (and get many of the higher end players of those pools) than the teams they compete against.
If Harrison could just only pick the kids they want to go to their school they could clean up every year, too.
Are you talking about this legislation:
https://talkbusiness.net/2019/04/tax-credits-for-private-school-scholarship-bill-fails/ (https://talkbusiness.net/2019/04/tax-credits-for-private-school-scholarship-bill-fails/)
Quote from: HeberFan on December 07, 2020, 11:46:44 am
Yes. The AAA can force schools to compete in some or all sports? What is the penalty for not competing? Does the school shut down?
AAA member schools actually willfully agree to the handbook and all of the by laws of the AAA when they send in their annual membership fee. So yes, all schools make the choice to play other AAA member schools. If you decide to miss a game it is a forfeit.
PA currently plays in the highest classification the AAA allows. In order for that to change, a majority of member schools would have to approve a proposal, and IMO they never will do it. My reasoning is non of the larger schools will want to drop in order to allow them to move up.
Quote from: Complete Biased PoV on December 07, 2020, 03:52:46 pm
AAA member schools actually willfully agree to the handbook and all of the by laws of the AAA when they send in their annual membership fee. So yes, all schools make the choice to play other AAA member schools. If you decide to miss a game it is a forfeit.
PA currently plays in the highest classification the AAA allows. In order for that to change, a majority of member schools would have to approve a proposal, and IMO they never will do it. My reasoning is non of the larger schools will want to drop in order to allow them to move up.
Bingo! Yahtzee! Bridge! Uno! (you get the idea)
52 was the size of PA's roster this season.
Oh Yeah another private school bowl. Eventually the rest of these schools will get tired of this and start their own athletics association. Its sad to see such great public school programs get put out of contention when you have to play against "hand selected teams". I can see where if your child attends one of these private schools you would defend to your program tooth and nail, but deep down you know its wrong. And in everyone else's minds those championships will always always have an * by them. I've said my piece and Ill leave it there. LR Christian bye 7 but who knows or even cares.
Quote from: SWAT524 on December 09, 2020, 09:31:36 am
Oh Yeah another private school bowl. Eventually the rest of these schools will get tired of this and start their own athletics association. Its sad to see such great public school programs get put out of contention when you have to play against "hand selected teams". I can see where if your child attends one of these private schools you would defend to your program tooth and nail, but deep down you know its wrong. And in everyone else's minds those championships will always always have an * by them. I've said my piece and Ill leave it there. LR Christian bye 7 but who knows or even cares.
How many diff threads you going to "leave it there" and "say your piece" with the same paragraph??😂
Quote from: loveallball on December 09, 2020, 11:30:24 am
How many diff threads you going to "leave it there" and "say your piece" with the same paragraph??😂
He can't quit until he makes an intelligent argument. Has yet to do that.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 09, 2020, 11:32:00 am
He can't quit until he makes an intelligent argument. Has yet to do that.
And you haven't either! Yet
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 09, 2020, 01:11:23 pm
And you haven't either! Yet
Depends who you ask.
By the way, best not to start a sentence with a conjunction.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 09, 2020, 02:02:59 pm
Perhaps you mean: "Who are you, AN English professor?"
Troll!!
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 09, 2020, 02:10:03 pm
Troll!!
I feel like Bryant playing whichever team you support. Let's call Mercy Rule.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 09, 2020, 02:12:08 pm
I feel like Bryant playing whichever team you support. Let's call Mercy Rule.
Heber Springs would beat them I guess?
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 09, 2020, 02:17:39 pm
Heber Springs would beat them I guess?
This year's Heber team would have trouble getting a first down against Bryant, unless, you count penalties. Puts us in good company.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 09, 2020, 03:52:38 pm
Hogman, don't take it personal. He has an elitist reputation to uphold, he can't do that without teaching you something. Just play along, maybe he will grant you approval.
Thanks man I know he is special.
Ready for this to be brought up even more after PA/LRC plays in the 3rd annual private school invitational and when Shiloh and Harding Academy win state. lol
Quote from: panther07 on October 27, 2020, 11:13:32 am
Goodness. HA would just start their own ring company.
As opposed to PA? I'll argue this point with the same arguments made against me in on the 5A issue. "Quit whining, the other teams will just have to work harder. Compete, graduate, and get on with life." Seriously though, I find it interesting that you have an issue with a hypothetical HA domination spree but defend what's happening in 5A.
kids that go to schools that don't offer football are simply told tough luck. We won't let you drive to a nearby school to play because that wouldn't be fair. But then when the thought of separating private schools from public schools comes up the argument is it wouldn't be fair. At least those private school kids would be still be getting to play.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 12, 2020, 08:54:43 am
As opposed to PA? I'll argue this point with the same arguments made against me in on the 5A issue. "Quit whining, the other teams will just have to work harder. Compete, graduate, and get on with life." Seriously though, I find it interesting that you have an issue with a hypothetical HA domination spree but defend what's happening in 5A.
kids that go to schools that don't offer football are simply told tough luck. We won't let you drive to a nearby school to play because that wouldn't be fair. But then when the thought of separating private schools from public schools comes up the argument is it wouldn't be fair. At least those private school kids would be still be getting to play.
I haven't defended it. Don't put words in my mouth. I absolutely see your/the other side. I've just stated there isn't a realistic solution at the moment. Seperation won't happen imo.
Also, every situation isn't near as black and white as 5A is. HA goes in cycles like other good programs. They're had a great 2 year run. But they may start a prepubescent 9th grader at Q next year for example. I don't know the solution is all I've stated.
However, kids aren't told tough luck. There's school choice. They just have to follow the timeframe rules.
Quote from: panther07 on December 12, 2020, 09:21:15 am
I haven't defended it. Don't put words in my mouth. I absolutely see your/the other side. I've just stated there isn't a realistic solution at the moment. Seperation won't happen imo.
Also, every situation isn't near as black and white as 5A is. HA goes in cycles like other good programs. They're had a great 2 year run. But they may start a prepubescent 9th grader at Q next year for example. I don't know the solution is all I've stated.
However, kids aren't told tough luck. There's school choice. They just have to follow the timeframe rules.
In regards to your last point about school choice, why should those kids have to change schools to play football? They have to leave their friends and teammates in the other sports? That's less fair than private schools being forced to play each other for conference and playoffs. They can still schedule non-conference anyone who wants to play them.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on October 27, 2020, 09:18:00 am
if there was a public/private school split like how some states do, i can see the arrangement being like this:
11-man league
Division I
CAC
LR Catholic
LR Christian
Pulaski Academy
Shiloh Christian
Division II
Baptist Prep
Conway Christian
LR Episcopal (sorry, their enrollment is 3A level)
Harding Academy
Subiaco Academy
8-man league
Abundant Life
Arkansas Christian Academy
Lee Academy
Marvell Academy
Southwest Christian Academy
Trinity Christian (Texarkana)
Union Christian Academy
West Memphis Christian.
Baptist Prep and Conway Christian are faced with terribly low numbers. Things are going to have to fall their way to remain 11-man. Conway Christian looking at less than 15 players next fall and Baptist Prep only had two sophomores in entire program and a junior high group that hasn't played in their conference last two cycles - opting instead to play 8th grade games.
Subiaco and Episcopal are both 8-man already and will stay - path to success is easier. Harding would have to go with the upper group. Benefit of a private-only league is they can recruit openly at that point. The is why it may not be best idea or publics to force them out. Imagine the central Arkansas football scene is those schools could openly scholarship kids or utilize minority scholarships, etc.
As for some of the 8-man schools you listed - Marvell Academy, Lee Academy, DeSoto School and West Memphis Christian are all on death's door. Decline population of the Delta has them in difficult financial situations. Lee can probably withstand. Rumors for years of a DeSoto and Marvell Academy combining to remain solvent. West Memphis Christian is done - they won't last another five years. Too much competition from legit private schools across the river. Those schools aren't going to leave their current association, either, because they are allowed to openly recruit.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 12, 2020, 09:38:24 am
In regards to your last point about school choice, why should those kids have to change schools to play football? They have to leave their friends and teammates in the other sports? That's less fair than private schools being forced to play each other for conference and playoffs. They can still schedule non-conference anyone who wants to play them.
What's more or less fair is simply a matter of opinion. No more no less.
Quote from: arkansasFBscoop on December 12, 2020, 09:41:02 am
Baptist Prep and Conway Christian are faced with terribly low numbers. Things are going to have to fall their way to remain 11-man. Conway Christian looking at less than 15 players next fall and Baptist Prep only had two sophomores in entire program and a junior high group that hasn't played in their conference last two cycles - opting instead to play 8th grade games.
Subiaco and Episcopal are both 8-man already and will stay - path to success is easier. Harding would have to go with the upper group. Benefit of a private-only league is they can recruit openly at that point. The is why it may not be best idea or publics to force them out. Imagine the central Arkansas football scene is those schools could openly scholarship kids or utilize minority scholarships, etc.
As for some of the 8-man schools you listed - Marvell Academy, Lee Academy, DeSoto School and West Memphis Christian are all on death's door. Decline population of the Delta has them in difficult financial situations. Lee can probably withstand. Rumors for years of a DeSoto and Marvell Academy combining to remain solvent. West Memphis Christian is done - they won't last another five years. Too much competition from legit private schools across the river. Those schools aren't going to leave their current association, either, because they are allowed to openly recruit.
Great post in my opinion. In response I would say why is it okay for PA and LRC to beat up on the bottom feeders in their public school conference, like the old LR Fair as one example, but not okay for them to be better than HA? If you ever sat through a Hall vs PA game like I did a couple of years ago you would agree that if a state association is okay with that being forced on Hall as a conference game, then they shouldn't argue fairness about private schools vs private schools. Working out which private schools play 11 man and which play 8 man is doable. It may not be ideal but it's no less ideal than half of the beatings I see private schools giving average public schools each week. They may not give private schools a full schedule but private schools can still schedule non-conference games.
As for private schools being able to openly scholarship etc, it's already dog eat dog in the metro area with school choice. Other posters have stated that when this happened in Louisiana, several private schools stopped getting the large influx of talented players because it was no longer as glamorous to play there.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 07, 2020, 09:50:47 am
Agreed, based on student population, they should play in 3A.
Ive been thinking tho why not play up even more?
Arkansas needs someone to come in and head just the public schools!...AAA is a joke and public schools need to see this and part ways with them!...🤷🏾♂️
Private schools vs Public Schools just look at the scores from history!...🤷🏾♂️ its down right wrong to let private schools steal from public schools!...🤷🏾♂️
Quote from: InYoGrill on October 27, 2020, 04:26:04 pm
YAWN, who cares????? Just play ball, they are all kids. Some are richer, more are poorer. Football is football.
😅 tell that to the public school Srs after they lose to a stacked private school to end their careers!...🤷🏾♂️
Quote from: MT Legend on December 12, 2020, 04:48:01 pm
😅 tell that to the public school Srs after they lose to a stacked private school to end their careers!...🤷🏾♂️
Yep.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 12, 2020, 05:22:42 pm
Yep.
. Quit whining public recruits more than private! And that comes public school dad
Quote from: Ctucker on December 12, 2020, 05:26:48 pm
. Quit whining public recruits more than private! And that comes public school dad
Well the scoreboard says the public needs to do a better job of recruiting lol!... That scoreboard don't lie lol!...🤷🏾♂️
Quote from: Ctucker on December 12, 2020, 05:26:48 pm
. Quit whining public recruits more than private! And that comes public school dad
Yea, these other states, including Texas, are filled with whiners. They separated private schools from public schools over whining....give me a break. There are countless examples of private schools across the country "dominating". If PA were the only one of its kind I probably wouldn't say as much. There's no debating their advantages. To many of them took it to far.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 12, 2020, 05:41:52 pm
Yea, these other states, including Texas, are filled with whiners. They separated private schools from public schools over whining....give me a break. There are countless examples of private schools across the country "dominating". If PA were the only one of its kind I probably wouldn't say as much. There's no debating their advantages. To many of them took it to far.
You get it!...🤷🏾♂️ if only more would wake up so something can get done about it!...🤷🏾♂️
Quote from: Yellowcake on October 27, 2020, 10:27:41 pm
Thank you
It's nauseating
Play ball
Root em on
Heres the solution for those people who think good teams like PA, LR Christian should be punished for success. They should give out State championships to each team that wins their division and then also give one to the schools that think it's unfair! This way you can teach kids that teams like AL and Clemson are evil and should also be punished! Everyone needs a trophy come on!!!
Quote from: rzrbackfan on December 13, 2020, 12:18:17 pm
Heres the solution for those people who think good teams like PA, LR Christian should be punished for success. They should give out State championships to each team that wins their division and then also give one to the schools that think it's unfair! This way you can teach kids that teams like AL and Clemson are evil and should also be punished! Everyone needs a trophy come on!!!
Thats weak and you know it. To use your example with Clemson and Alabama, If there were 2 pro teams allowed to play college ball, and they were winning the title every single year by blowout, people would be upset. I suppose you would call it whining. I'm sure you are vested in keeping the gravy train alive for one of the private schools. I would love to see action taken and watch your reaction when it does. We would see how big of a whiner you are.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 13, 2020, 12:31:25 pm
Thats weak and you know it. To use your example with Clemson and Alabama, If there were 2 pro teams allowed to play college ball, and they were winning the title every single year by blowout, people would be upset. I suppose you would call it whining. I'm sure you are vested in keeping the gravy train alive for one of the private schools. I would love to see action taken and watch your reaction when it does. We would see how big of a whiner you are.
Trust me I'm not whining. I'm not pro public or private. I'm pro successful teams and how they do it. Teams like Greenwood, Bentonville, PA, Robinson, Nashville, and others. I'm not a fan of wanting to kick out teams who are successful.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on December 13, 2020, 12:40:25 pm
Trust me I'm not whining. I'm not pro public or private. I'm pro successful teams and how they do it. Teams like Greenwood, Bentonville, PA, Robinson, Nashville, and others. I'm not a fan of wanting to kick out teams who are successful.
I haven't met a person who is for kicking out teams for being successful. I've met an overwhelming amount of people (and observed other states) who are in favor of separating private school athletics from public school athletics because private schools have competitive advantages that makes for an un-level playing ground. By your logic, the athletic association's in Texas are whiners and kicked private schools out because they were successful. Get real.
Imagine being a coach at a private school but not being able to win. Do you just hang the whistle up and sell insurance?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 13, 2020, 12:54:47 pm
I haven't met a person who is for kicking out teams for being successful. I've met an overwhelming amount of people (and observed other states) who are in favor of separating private school athletics from public school athletics because private schools have competitive advantages that makes for an un-level playing ground. By your logic, the athletic association's in Texas are whiners and kicked private schools out because they were successful. Get real.
Lol your silly if you think texas and Arkansas is on the same level of competition!...🤷🏾♂️ big difference in texas public schools and Arkansas!...🤷🏾♂️
Quote from: panther07 on December 13, 2020, 01:04:50 pm
Imagine being a coach at a private school but not being able to win. Do you just hang the whistle up and sell insurance?
FWIW, many private school coaches would struggle in public's and vice versa. Evans couldn't get it done at Foreman. Great coach at Harding. Not long after he left Foreman, they win big with a good public school coach. King probably wouldn't last five minutes at HA. It's about fit.
I also do believe the private schools should move to their own bracket for postseason. Play regular season conference play as always, but the Louisiana model is effective in that form IMO. You are allowed drawing from significantly larger population basis, often with deeper pockets and more resources than neighborhood schools typically do.
Quote from: arkansasprepfootball on December 13, 2020, 04:08:41 pm
FWIW, many private school coaches would struggle in public's and vice versa. Evans couldn't get it done at Foreman. Great coach at Harding. Not long after he left Foreman, they win big with a good public school coach. King probably wouldn't last five minutes at HA. It's about fit.
I also do believe the private schools should move to their own bracket for postseason. Play regular season conference play as always, but the Louisiana model is effective in that form IMO. You are allowed drawing from significantly larger population basis, often with deeper pockets and more resources than neighborhood schools typically do.
The group that won a state title at foreman was undefeated in junior high (large margins) the ONE year he was there.
I think you make some good arguments there, but not certain that was a great example.
This might not be a popular take, but I think Arkansas needs to take 8-11 enrollment to reclassify so that all classes get counted across 2 cycles.
The 9-11 enrollment averaged over 3 years is definitely an improvement over the 10-12 plan, but it's still a remnant vestige of a day where freshmen didn't go to high school. One large or small class can still skew the numbers either way.
The 8-11 enrollment measurement is an improvement over the 9-12 plan still in place in Texas, where outgoing seniors still get to dictate what their school does after they're long gone. It also helps Arkansas schools compare apples to apples with their neighboring states who measure 4 grades.
Private schools is all the same put Christian on their titles... But the devil is at the head of all them!...🤷🏾♂️ remember the devil can transfer himself to the image of light!...🤷🏾♂️ Just saying!...🤷🏾♂️
there are 8 11-man private schools in the state and 4 of them are playing in the state title this year. These same 4 teams are responsible for 20 state titles and 30 state title appearances in the past 20 years. For perspective, these 4 private schools make up 2% of the high school football teams in the state and are responsible for 20% of the state champions in the past 20 years in classifications with private school teams (in otherwords, not including the old AAAA and the current 6A since there's no private schools.
Catholic would be a 7A power if it wasn't an all-boys school (as odd as that may sound). A lot of good athletes in the LR area don't wanna go to a school without the opposite sex. So PA, LRC and CAC becomes the private school of choice. otherwise, they would be a monster. CAC has won a title and went again the next year with Joe Adams (who they nabbed from Parkview). Been on and off the past few years however. Baptist Prep has been pretty bad, but Conway Christian is slowly cracking the code, having 4 10 win seasons and a few deep playoff runs in their 10 years as a 11-man team. Episcopal has reached the semis twice before being 8-man.
It's an interesting argument that i think should continue to be looked at. Texas is football capital and they split their public and private schools. Meanwhile majority of High School national champions not from Texas in the past 20 years have been private schools. De La Salle, Mater Dei, St. John Bosco, Bishop Gorman. IMG, Don Bosco Prep, St Thomas Aquinas, St Xavier etc.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 13, 2020, 08:06:03 pm
there are 8 11-man private schools in the state and 4 of them are playing in the state title this year.
There are 3,240 high schools in Texas, made up of 2,813 public schools and 427 private schools. I don't think they separate them because their private schools dominate the public.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on December 13, 2020, 08:50:05 pm
There are 3,240 high schools in Texas, made up of 2,813 public schools and 427 private schools. I don't think they separate them because their private schools dominate the public.
I'd be surprised to see it happen in Arkansas. Very. There may not be as many post offices in Arkansas as Texas has private schools.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on December 13, 2020, 08:50:05 pm
There are 3,240 high schools in Texas, made up of 2,813 public schools and 427 private schools. I don't think they separate them because their private schools dominate the public.
427 private schools out of 3240 is 13%. There are 457 high schools in Arkansas, made up of 69 private schools that make up 15% of the total. That 15% has dominated in a variety of sports, relative to their ratio.
The UIL in Texas keeps private schools separate from public schools because they are way ahead of the curve and know what would happen. The private schools don't have the same zone restriction, funding, and regulations as public schools. Which allows them the bigger opportunity to recruit specific players from all over and around the county. There's only two private schools in the UIL and that's Houston Strake Jesuit and Dallas Jesuit. Both were accepted under special conditions in 2004, but both have been also been competitive in a variety of sports and have won a few state titles in their 15 year span, which isn't easy to do in Texas.
This issue is wearingly obvious now and most states are now either in process or have already made a split between public and private schools in competition because of this advantage. Either they move them up to the highest classification, or they put them in a separate bracket/division. St. John Bosco only has around 800 students and is a national power. De La Salle is just now eclipsing 1000 students. Think about that.
The proof is in the pudding with classifications. Why does a private school have to move up in classification when their enrollment numbers would put them in a lower classification if they were a public school? It's not JUST because they are good, otherwise Barton, Rison, and Junction City would've have been 3A in their heyday, while Greenwood would be 7A today.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 13, 2020, 10:43:31 pm
427 private schools out of 3240 is 13%. There are 457 high schools in Arkansas, made up of 69 private schools that make up 15% of the total. That 15% has dominated in a variety of sports, relative to their ratio.
The UIL in Texas keeps private schools separate from public schools because they are way ahead of the curve and know what would happen. The private schools don't have the same zone restriction, funding, and regulations as public schools. Which allows them the bigger opportunity to recruit specific players from all over and around the county. There's only two private schools in the UIL and that's Houston Strake Jesuit and Dallas Jesuit. Both were accepted under special conditions in 2004, but both have been also been competitive in a variety of sports and have won a few state titles in their 15 year span, which isn't easy to do in Texas.
This issue is wearingly obvious now and most states are now either in process or have already made a split between public and private schools in competition because of this advantage. Either they move them up to the highest classification, or they put them in a separate bracket/division. St. John Bosco only has around 800 students and is a national power. De La Salle is just now eclipsing 1000 students. Think about that.
The proof is in the pudding with classifications. Why does a private school have to move up in classification when their enrollment numbers would put them in a lower classification if they were a public school? It's not JUST because they are good, otherwise Barton, Rison, and Junction City would've have been 3A in their heyday, while Greenwood would be 7A today.
😆😅😅😅🤷🏾♂️
Quote from: rzrbackfan on December 13, 2020, 12:18:17 pm
Heres the solution for those people who think good teams like PA, LR Christian should be punished for success. They should give out State championships to each team that wins their division and then also give one to the schools that think it's unfair! This way you can teach kids that teams like AL and Clemson are evil and should also be punished! Everyone needs a trophy come on!!!
It's not about punishing success. It's about a level playing field. Using Alabama and Clemson is moot because all the other FBS teams have an 85 scholarship limit.
Using NCAA Football as an example, Division II and Division III used to be in the same entity (College Division) while Division I used to be the University Division. Both divisions had splits based on scholarships.
The University Division split into two subdivisions: the FBS and FCS. FBS teams has 85 scholarships while FCS has 63. The College Division was split into teams who wanted to give scholarships and ones that didn't. The ones who did formed Division II and have a 36 scholarship limit. Those that didn't formed Division III
All 3 levels/sublevels of NCAA Football compete in their own division based on number of scholarships. Guess which type of high school gives scholarships while the other doesn't.....
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 14, 2020, 06:05:51 am
It's not about punishing success. It's about a level playing field. Using Alabama and Clemson is moot because all the other FBS teams have an 85 scholarship limit.
Using NCAA Football as an example, Division II and Division III used to be in the same entity (College Division) while Division I used to be the University Division. Both divisions had splits based on scholarships.
The University Division split into two subdivisions: the FBS and FCS. FBS teams has 85 scholarships while FCS has 63. The College Division was split into teams who wanted to give scholarships and ones that didn't. The ones who did formed Division II and have a 36 scholarship limit. Those that didn't formed Division III
All 3 levels/sublevels of NCAA Football compete in their own division based on number of scholarships. Guess which type of high school gives scholarships while the other doesn't.....
Alright. To your last point.. Tennessee splits their private schools into basically a "can give scholarships" and "cant". The "can't" still play public school ball. What do we do about that in Arkansas? There's just not the same volume in Arkansas to pull it off. Don't see it happening.
Seems being a private school isn't everything. Just ask Little Rock Christian.
Quote from: Ctucker on December 12, 2020, 05:26:48 pm
. Quit whining public recruits more than private! And that comes public school dad
Look at Parkview...5 D1 offered kids and they cant make the 6A Finals...so we know its not about recruiting...
I see a recurring theme...if its a kid who moves into a public school, then its a transfer....if he goes to a private school, its a recruit...lol
Quote from: STBruin on December 14, 2020, 09:48:50 am
Look at Parkview...5 D1 offered kids and they cant make the 6A Finals...so we know its not about recruiting...
I see a recurring theme...if its a kid who moves into a public school, then its a transfer....if he goes to a private school, its a recruit...lol
Stupid stupid stupid. Let's try some honestly here. Nice try at spin but it was still quite transparent. I'll walk you through it, if a kid moves from one public school to another it's a transfer. If a kid moves to a private school AND RECIEVES FINANCIAL AID it's a recruit.
I have no problem with anyone requires financial aid if the thrust of their decision was academics. If that kid chooses to play interscholastic sports that changes the discussion.
Quote from: JessieP on December 14, 2020, 12:57:07 pm
Stupid stupid stupid. Let's try some honestly here. Nice try at spin but it was still quite transparent. I'll walk you through it, if a kid moves from one public school to another it's a transfer. If a kid moves to a private school AND RECIEVES FINANCIAL AID it's a recruit.
I have no problem with anyone requires financial aid if the thrust of their decision was academics. If that kid chooses to play interscholastic sports that changes the discussion.
Wow and you are calling him stupid? The definition of a recruit is the transfer was actually recruited to come to the school. I may remind you once again that every single kid in public school has a taxpayer funded full scholarship. So by your own wrong definition there would be no such thing as a transfer because every transfer would have received financial aid.
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 02:59:36 pm
Wow and you are calling him stupid? The definition of a recruit is the transfer was actually recruited to come to the school. I may remind you once again that every single kid in public school has a taxpayer funded full scholarship. So by your own wrong definition there would be no such thing as a transfer.
Stupid Stupid Stupid!
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 02:59:36 pm
Wow and you are calling him stupid? The definition of a recruit is the transfer was actually recruited to come to the school. I may remind you once again that every single kid in public school has a taxpayer funded full scholarship. So by your own wrong definition there would be no such thing as a transfer because every transfer would have received financial aid.
If that public school 'full scholarship' supplied the equal of a private school education, then I would agree. However, it doesn't. And taxes aren't free.
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 02:59:36 pm
Wow and you are calling him stupid? The definition of a recruit is the transfer was actually recruited to come to the school. I may remind you once again that every single kid in public school has a taxpayer funded full scholarship. So by your own wrong definition there would be no such thing as a transfer because every transfer would have received financial aid.
A fully funded scholarship to one school that is dependent on where you live. One option only. There are reasons why a family doesn't have multiple public school options.
Quote from: StingEm on December 14, 2020, 03:24:14 pm
If that public school 'full scholarship' supplied the equal of a private school education, then I would agree. However, it doesn't.
Ya' get what we all pay for....
Quote from: td24 on December 14, 2020, 03:25:27 pm
A fully funded scholarship to one school that is dependent on where you live. One option only. There are reasons why a family doesn't have multiple public school options.
Actually, in Central AR there are multiple public school options for folks on both sides of the river.
Quote from: RazorDad on December 14, 2020, 03:30:08 pm
Actually, in Central AR there are multiple public school options for folks on both sides of the river.
Darn facts....
Asking for clarity only....are you saying that students from NLR could go to a different public school by choice?
Definitely not the way it is in Garland County and might have made a bad assumption.
Quote from: td24 on December 14, 2020, 03:25:27 pm
A fully funded scholarship to one school that is dependent on where you live. One option only. There are reasons why a family doesn't have multiple public school options.
This is factually untrue with school choice. We keep trying to tell you the suburban and metro areas are a free for all but you guys are not exposed to the public school athletes transferring from one season to the next in the rural areas like we are in Little Rock. The only schools under any resemblance of control are the private schools.
Not one person is complaining about the transfers Robinson, Bryant, Parkview and Cabot got the last couple of years.
Quote from: td24 on December 14, 2020, 03:34:46 pm
Asking for clarity only....are you saying that students from NLR could go to a different public school by choice?
Definitely not the way it is in Garland County and might have made a bad assumption.
Yes, Maumelle and eStem are two options for NLR residents. I personally know families in this scenario.
Quote from: RazorDad on December 14, 2020, 03:40:12 pm
Yes, Maumelle and eStem are two options for NLR residents.I personally know families that are going this route.
Maumelle Charter is another. Plus it's not like Mayflower would turn a kid down if a parent wanted to bring that 14k per kid public school scholarship to them.
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 03:39:14 pm
This is factually untrue with school choice. We keep trying to tell you the suburban and metro areas are a free for all but you guys are not exposed to the public school athletes transferring from one season to the next in the rural areas like we are in Little Rock. The only schools under any resemblance of control are the private schools.
Not one person is complaining about the transfers Robinson, Bryant, Parkview and Cabot got the last couple of years.
I'm big on school choice.
Abraham Lincoln had about one year of formal education, "in littles," as he called it. A month here, a few weeks there. He was mostly self-educated by borrowing books.
Sports? Dude could wrestle!
Quote from: RazorDad on December 14, 2020, 03:40:12 pm
Yes, Maumelle and eStem are two options for NLR residents. I personally know families in this scenario.
Shouldn't an outstanding athlete transfer to the worst sports school possible? That would balance things and please the internet jockeys in here.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 14, 2020, 03:46:10 pm
Shouldn't an outstanding athlete transfer to the worst sports school possible? That would balance things and please the internet jockeys in here.
Equality of outcome is critical to a successful socialist society.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 14, 2020, 03:46:10 pm
Shouldn't an outstanding athlete transfer to the worst sports school possible? That would balance things and please the internet jockeys in here.
Thats the rub. These guys are never going to be happy. It's like trying to get duck hunters to agree on something. The surest way to fail is to try to make everyone happy.
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 03:51:50 pm
Thats the rub. These guys are never going to be happy. It's like trying to get duck hunters to agree on something. The surest way to fail is to try to make everyone happy.
I've hunted ducks for 40 years. One we agree on is that it's great to have a limit of greenheads by 8:30.
I know.... what if public schools got 20 points per touchdown and 10 per field goal?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 14, 2020, 03:59:25 pm
I've hunted ducks for 40 years. One we agree on is that it's great to have a limit of greenheads by 8:30.
I know.... what if public schools got 20 points per touchdown and 10 per field goal?
We should separate private and public land hunte.... wait. What am I saying? I'm not sure what's going on anymore.
Quote from: panther07 on December 14, 2020, 04:02:24 pm
We should separate private and public land hunte.... wait. What am I saying? I'm not sure what's going on anymore.
If private land and public land hunters agree to chase birds together, it's all good. If they choose to hunt apart, that's fine, too. Nobody forces them.
Has duck hunting solved this whole thing ????
I wonder why a state with the high school football reputation of Texas would put private schools in their own league. Why does virtually every state have a strategy for dealing with private schools (move them up a classification or separate them out being the 2 most common). Were they trying to make everyone happy? Did they come up with that duck hunting? It seems odd that if everyone were on a level playing field that they would unfairly do that to the poor private schools.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 04:08:38 pm
I wonder why a state with the high school football reputation of Texas would put private schools in their own league. Why does virtually every state have a strategy for dealing with private schools (move them up a classification or separate them out being the 2 most common). Were they trying to make everyone happy?
Every state does have a strategy for dealing with private schools. You just don't like the one Arkansas uses.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 14, 2020, 04:09:55 pm
Every state does have a strategy for dealing with private schools. You just don't like the one Arkansas uses.
I must have struck a nerve to break up your sarcasm and get a direct answer. Good, now answer the last part. Why have a strategy at all if it's fair between public and private? That by itself points to an acknowledgment of advantages needing to be addressed. Some schools take those advantages to far and ruin it for everyone else. It's happened all across the country.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 04:12:20 pm
I must have struck a nerve to break up your sarcasm and get a direct answer. Good, now answer the last part. Why have a strategy at all if it's fair between public and private? That by itself points to an acknowledgment of advantages needing to be addressed. Some schools take those advantages to far and ruin it for everyone else. It's happened all across the country.
I'm not a fan of segregation or affirmative action. That's what you want.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 14, 2020, 04:14:40 pm
I'm not a fan of segregation or affirmative action. That's what you want.
More deflection. I didn't ask what you are a fan of. Why have a strategy for dealing with private schools if there are no advantages to deal with? You've now admitted every state has a strategy for private schools, why would they? Is the entire country whiners when it comes to this topic?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 04:18:10 pm
More deflection. I didn't ask what you are a fan of. Why have a strategy for dealing with private schools if there are no advantages to deal with? You've now admitted every state has a strategy for private schools, why would they? Is the entire country whiners when it comes to this topic?
Please read more carefully. Arkansas has a strategy for dealing with private schools. That is to let them play with public schools. Others segregate and placate. The entire country is pretty soft, yes. People freak if their wi-fi is down more than three minutes.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 04:18:10 pm
More deflection. I didn't ask what you are a fan of. Why have a strategy for dealing with private schools if there are no advantages to deal with? You've now admitted every state has a strategy for private schools, why would they? Is the entire country whiners when it comes to this topic?
Yes and justification of behavior because everyone else does it is not rational thinking.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 14, 2020, 04:24:05 pm
Please read more carefully. Arkansas has a strategy for dealing with private schools. That is to let them play with public schools. Others segregate and placate. The entire country is pretty soft, yes. People freak if their wi-fi is down more than three minutes.
So Texas is soft?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 14, 2020, 04:24:05 pm
Please read more carefully. Arkansas has a strategy for dealing with private schools. That is to let them play with public schools. Others segregate and placate. The entire country is pretty soft, yes. People freak if their wi-fi is down more than three minutes.
I thought Arkansas plays them up in classification? Why do that if it's fair already. Still confused. And why would other states separate?
Longhorns have just one, 10-win season in the past 11 years. Kinda soft.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 04:27:27 pm
I thought Arkansas plays them up in classification? Why do that if it's fair already. Still confused. And why would other states separate?
You are right. Arkansas pushes up, by one classification, any private school with more than 80 students in Grades 10-12. So, yes, the state is already artificially leveling the competition.
Other states have chosen to segregate the playoffs -- public and private.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 14, 2020, 04:36:17 pm
You are right. Arkansas pushes up, by one classification, any private school with more than 80 students in Grades 10-12. So, yes, the state is already artificially leveling the competition.
Other states have chosen to segregate the playoffs -- public and private.
Why would they do that if private schools have no advantage?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 14, 2020, 04:36:17 pm
You are right. Arkansas pushes up, by one classification, any private school with more than 80 students in Grades 10-12. So, yes, the state is already artificially leveling the competition.
Other states have chosen to segregate the playoffs -- public and private.
😆😆😂😆 lol more like feeding the private schools the public schools!...🤷🏾♂️ for a playoff snack!...🤷🏾♂️ Gooh with this bs post!...🤷🏾♂️
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 04:44:52 pm
Why would they do that if private schools have no advantage?
I think you a mistaken when you say no advantage. I don't know anyone that would argue that private schools do not have advantages. They have parents that go above and beyond to get kids to practice. They have nutrition advantages as well. The biggest advantages are they have the ability to control who doesn't walk the halls of the schools. If a kid is a problem they tell them to leave. If a parent is a problem the ask them to find a new school for their children (although they are considerably less likely to punish a kid due to parent behavior it does happen on the rare occasion.). So with that being said if you were a top notch coach would you want to work for a public school ran by politicians and yes men who have to sway towards whatever direction the political winds happen to be blowing today or would you choose to coach where you know the community is going to give you the resources you need? So yeah, there are advantages to private schools besides the academics. You won't ever get me to agree that the government is more effective at running an organization over people that have to run an organization that people are free to take their money and leave at any moment.
So parents that read this. I understand that there are great parents at public schools that go above and beyond. But it isn't the norm. At private schools it is the norm. Admins/Teachers that read this I understand that there are great teachers and admins in public schools. I don't think anyone would argue that things would be more efficient if your kids all came to school to actually learn everyday. That is the culture at private schools. That "I am to cool to be seen trying hard" is not a thing at private schools. Sadly that is the culture at every public school I have ever been associated with.
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 05:03:33 pm
I think you a mistaken when you say no advantage. I don't know anyone that would argue that private schools do not have advantages. They have parents that go above and beyond to get kids to practice. They have nutrition advantages as well. The biggest advantages are they have the ability to control who doesn't walk the halls of the schools. If a kid is a problem they tell them to leave. If a parent is a problem the ask them to find a new school for their children (although they are considerably less likely to punish a kid due to parent behavior it does happen on the rare occasion.). So with that being said if you were a top notch coach would you want to work for a public school ran by politicians and yes men who have to sway towards whatever direction the political winds happen to be blowing today or would you choose to coach where you know the community is going to give you the resources you need? So yeah, there are advantages to private schools besides the academics. You won't ever get me to agree that the government is more effective at running an organization over people that have to run an organization that people are free to take their money and leave at any moment.
So parents that read this. I understand that there are great parents at public schools that go above and beyond. But it isn't the norm. At private schools it is the norm. Admins/Teachers that read this I understand that there are great teachers and admins in public schools. I don't think anyone would argue that things would be more efficient if your kids all came to school to actually learn everyday. That is the culture at private schools. That "I am to cool to be seen trying hard" is not a thing at private schools. Sadly that is the culture at every public school I have ever been associated with.
I agree with much of what you said, not that my opinion matters. But still, athletic associations must think the advantages are enough that private schools need their own league or move them up a classification. They wouldn't do that unless they were worried about putting them with public schools at their correct enrollment level. What are they trying to avoid by making these moves?
Quote from: MT Legend on December 14, 2020, 04:45:55 pm
😆😆😂😆 lol more like feeding the private schools the public schools!...🤷🏾♂️ for a playoff snack!...🤷🏾♂️ Gooh with this bs post!...🤷🏾♂️
Then stop talking about rivercrest beating Shiloh. You can't have it both ways.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 05:18:22 pm
I agree with much of what you said, not that my opinion matters. But still, athletic associations must think the advantages are enough that private schools need their own league or move them up a classification. They wouldn't do that unless they were worried about putting them with public schools at their correct enrollment level. What are they trying to avoid by making these moves?
Do you realize that PA and LRCA are really very small 4A schools. Like borderline 3A size? They are already forced to play up.
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 05:24:36 pm
Do you realize that PA and LRCA are really very small 4A schools. Like borderline 3A size? They are already forced to play up.
Yes I do. What is a state association trying to avoid by moving private schools up like that?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 05:30:42 pm
Yes I do. What is a state association trying to avoid by moving private schools up like that?
They are trying to make people happy. They already force kids to sit 365 days if they transfer to a private school where they can play on day 1 at a public school. KJ Jackson, Zack White, JD White and Nathan Page are all kids that left LRCA their freshman years and wanted to come back but opted not to due to 365 day waiting periods. So there are advantages but these guys claiming recruiting is the reason for success have zero clue what they are talking about.
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 05:41:52 pm
They are trying to make people happy. They already force kids to sit 365 days if they transfer to a private school where they can play on day 1 at a public school. KJ Jackson, Zack White, JD White and Nathan Page are all kids that left LRCA their freshman years and wanted to come back but opted not to due to 365 day waiting periods. So there are advantages but these mush-mouth rednecks claiming recruiting is the reason have zero clue what they are talking about.
Rednecks huh? Trying to make rednecks happy. Wow man. Athletic associations move private schools to their own league or move them up in classification to make people happy? You expect any unbiased person to buy that?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 05:54:08 pm
Rednecks huh? Trying to make rednecks happy. Wow man. Athletic associations move private schools to their own league or move them up in classification to make people happy? You expect any unbiased person to buy that?
Yeah I got frustrated and honest for a split second. I don't have any expectations of changing anyone's mind. It's hard to fill a cup that is already full. I quite honestly don't care what you think. It's not going to stop me from saying the truth for others that don't already have their minds made up to hear. If you choose to think it is recruiting that is responsible for the success then go ahead.
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 05:24:36 pm
Do you realize that PA and LRCA are really very small 4A schools. Like borderline 3A size? They are already forced to play up.
If they are really 4a schools maybe they should play there? Shiloh was up 56-0 at halftime in a state semi-final game, they could use some competition. Maybe PA and LRC should play them. I saw a video on social media of Shiloh practicing in the razorbacks indoor facility today FYI.
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 05:59:55 pm
Yeah I got frustrated and honest for a split second. I don't have any expectations of changing anyone's mind. It's hard to fill a cup that is already full. I quite honestly don't care what you think. It's not going to stop me from saying the truth for others that don't already have their minds made up to hear. If you choose to think it all recruiting then go ahead.
The truth lol, you can't even answer direct questions if it goes against your narrative. I had to ask the same question over and over to get one of you guys to finally answer it, and you did so with a cop out. "Make people happy", nice honesty! Is that because your cup is empty and you are open minded? Please! PA hasn't lost to a public school since 2013. They are no different then the JT curtis's of the country. The more info gathered across the country the more restrictions get put on private schools, not the other way around. I wonder why that is....hmmmm. The "truth" is being found out regardless of what you try to sell on here.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 06:17:33 pm
The truth lol, you can't even answer direct questions if it goes against your narrative. I had to ask the same question over and over to get one of you guys to finally answer it, and you did so with a cop out. "Make people happy", nice honesty! Is that because your cup is empty and you are open minded? Please! PA hasn't lost to a public school since 2013. They are no different then the JT curtis's of the country. The more info gathered across the country the more restrictions get put on private schools, not the other way around. I wonder why that is....hmmmm. The "truth" is being found out regardless of what you try to sell on here.
Oh well, it's easier for people to get fooled than it is to convince them they got fooled.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 14, 2020, 06:17:33 pm
The truth lol, you can't even answer direct questions if it goes against your narrative. I had to ask the same question over and over to get one of you guys to finally answer it, and you did so with a cop out. "Make people happy", nice honesty! Is that because your cup is empty and you are open minded? Please! PA hasn't lost to a public school since 2013. They are no different then the JT curtis's of the country. The more info gathered across the country the more restrictions get put on private schools, not the other way around. I wonder why that is....hmmmm. The "truth" is being found out regardless of what you try to sell on here.
I dont know why yall keep arguing with Ignorance!! They will never admit that they have a huge advantage.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 14, 2020, 06:53:02 pm
I dont know why yall keep arguing with Ignorance!! They willmnever admit that they have a huge advantage.
Did not read before he posted.
Quote from: incogneto on December 14, 2020, 07:01:57 pm
Did not read before he posted.
LRC needs to do a little better recruiting this off season ! Maybe yall can find a few more kids in SW Little Rock that are underprivileged that can run a 4.4 forty. LRC will never be PA!
AAA won't change Arkansas setup.
The end.
Should be separate, bottom line. Privates decided to separate themselves when they chose private over public. Don't give a carp about advantage or unfair. You want to be separate, be separate. You made that choice don't be made when people want you to be held to your decision! Oh wait, private money can get what they want, so never mind, please disregard all logic and just give it to them.
"Carp or crap" either one! ;D ;D
Quote from: hoops guy on December 15, 2020, 08:58:07 am
Should be separate, bottom line. Privates decided to separate themselves when they chose private over public. Don't give a carp about advantage or unfair. You want to be separate, be separate. You made that choice don't be made when people want you to be held to your decision! Oh wait, private money can get what they want, so never mind, please disregard all logic and just give it to them.
What is your "Tropic of Capricorn" for public vs. private? Should graduation requirements be separate? Teacher education requirements? College scholarship pools?
Participation in a private enterprise doesn't disqualify one from participating in a public event. For example, if someone works at a private company, can they shop at a public company like Wal-Mart? Sure they can.
Quote from: hoops guy on December 15, 2020, 08:58:07 am
Should be separate, bottom line. Privates decided to separate themselves when they chose private over public. Don't give a carp about advantage or unfair. You want to be separate, be separate. You made that choice don't be made when people want you to be held to your decision! Oh wait, private money can get what they want, so never mind, please disregard all logic and just give it to them.
but all of their tax dollars still go to public schools, so there is that too...
Quote from: STBruin on December 15, 2020, 09:47:54 am
but all of their tax dollars still go to public schools, so there is that too...
Duh where you think it supposed to go?
Choose to be separate, be separate! How hard is that to understand? We all make decisions in life that come with consequences, good and bad. It just seems that the decision to go private, has no negative consequences to those that can afford it. What are we teaching kids? Private school kids, get everything your way because you have the means. Public school kids, because you don't have the means, you get what you get and don't throw a fit! Take it and like because there is nothing you can do about it.
If you and I are running a long distance race that is the same distance, I have to run over the Rocky Mountains, you get to run through Kansas, who is going to win giving the same effort and having the same abilities? You will of course. I don't blame parents for wanting to give their kids a head start or advantages by going private. However if that is what you chose, then be separate in all school related activities. Surely that is not hard to understand. It is simple logic. "All" of their tax dollars don't go to public schools. Some goes for highways, hospitals, and other such things. You knew where your tax dollars were going when you chose private, yet you still chose to do it. You wanted to be separate so bad that you knew you were paying taxes for a public education and you still paid for a private education. You just don't want your athletics separate. You didn't want what your ta dollars were paying for you wanted more, so you paid for it. You didn't want to be a part of that so you separated yourselves. Well, stay separate. Really kind of simple.
Quote from: hoops guy on December 15, 2020, 10:04:09 am
Choose to be separate, be separate! How hard is that to understand? We all make decisions in life that come with consequences, good and bad. It just seems that the decision to go private, has no negative consequences to those that can afford it. What are we teaching kids? Private school kids, get everything your way because you have the means. Public school kids, because you don't have the means, you get what you get and don't throw a fit! Take it and like because there is nothing you can do about it.
If you and I are running a long distance race that is the same distance, I have to run over the Rocky Mountains, you get to run through Kansas, who is going to win giving the same effort and having the same abilities? You will of course. I don't blame parents for wanting to give their kids a head start or advantages by going private. However if that is what you chose, then be separate in all school related activities. Surely that is not hard to understand. It is simple logic. "All" of their tax dollars don't go to public schools. Some goes for highways, hospitals, and other such things. You knew where your tax dollars were going when you chose private, yet you still chose to do it. You wanted to be separate so bad that you knew you were paying taxes for a public education and you still paid for a private education. You just don't want your athletics separate. You didn't want what your ta dollars were paying for you wanted more, so you paid for it. You didn't want to be a part of that so you separated yourselves. Well, stay separate. Really kind of simple.
Public and private schools both choose whom, or whether, to play. Even more simple.
Not simple at all with severe punishment for publics not playing public. Chose not to play=Forfeit=no playoffs. Really not a choice at all.
Quote from: hoops guy on December 15, 2020, 10:20:16 am
Not simple at all with severe punishment for publics not playing public. Chose not to play=Forfeit=no playoffs. Really not a choice at all.
A public school can "protest" by refusing to play a private school. Might cost a game in conference; another in playoffs. Can still play. No choice is consequence free.
Quote from: hoops guy on December 15, 2020, 10:04:09 am
Choose to be separate, be separate! How hard is that to understand? We all make decisions in life that come with consequences, good and bad. It just seems that the decision to go private, has no negative consequences to those that can afford it. What are we teaching kids? Private school kids, get everything your way because you have the means. Public school kids, because you don't have the means, you get what you get and don't throw a fit! Take it and like because there is nothing you can do about it.
If you and I are running a long distance race that is the same distance, I have to run over the Rocky Mountains, you get to run through Kansas, who is going to win giving the same effort and having the same abilities? You will of course. I don't blame parents for wanting to give their kids a head start or advantages by going private. However if that is what you chose, then be separate in all school related activities. Surely that is not hard to understand. It is simple logic. "All" of their tax dollars don't go to public schools. Some goes for highways, hospitals, and other such things. You knew where your tax dollars were going when you chose private, yet you still chose to do it. You wanted to be separate so bad that you knew you were paying taxes for a public education and you still paid for a private education. You just don't want your athletics separate. You didn't want what your ta dollars were paying for you wanted more, so you paid for it. You didn't want to be a part of that so you separated yourselves. Well, stay separate. Really kind of simple.
True.. Privates pay to play and pay for supposedly better academics. They should be separate on all aspects.
Quote from: LS80 on December 15, 2020, 10:28:13 am
True.. Privates pay to play and pay for supposedly better academics. They should be separate on all aspects.
A starkly unexamined position....
Quote from: LS80 on December 15, 2020, 10:28:13 am
True.. Privates pay to play and pay for supposedly better academics. They should be separate on all aspects.
+1
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 10:23:49 am
A public school can "protest" by refusing to play a private school. Might cost a game in conference; another in playoffs. Can still play. No choice is consequence free.
No choice is consequence free? Except closing private? Right?
Quote from: hoops guy on December 15, 2020, 10:39:59 am
No choice is consequence free? Except closing private? Right?
Closing the private school or closing its games with public schools? Both would have a range of consequences.
Quote from: hoops guy on December 15, 2020, 10:20:16 am
Not simple at all with severe punishment for publics not playing public. Chose not to play=Forfeit=no playoffs. Really not a choice at all.
Just play for conference titles and opt out of the playoffs!...🤷🏾♂️ you not going to win them anyways. just save that trip money and move on to basketball!...🤷🏾♂️
Quote from: MT Legend on December 15, 2020, 10:43:03 am
Just play for conference titles and opt out of the playoffs!...🤷🏾♂️ you not going to win them anyways. just save that trip money and move on to basketball!...🤷🏾♂️
I would say work on chess team or Quiz Bowl, but, the privates rule those.
I meant choosing. Not sure what happened there.
No choice is consequence free? Except choosing private?
This is what it should have read. Fat fingers on a small keyboard seems to be a bad choice with unintended consequences also! ;D ;D
Quote from: hoops guy on December 15, 2020, 10:44:53 am
I meant choosing. Not sure what happened there.
No choice is consequence free? Except choosing private?
This is what it should have read. Fat fingers on a small keyboard seems to be a bad choice with unintended consequences also! ;D ;D
Choosing a private school has consequences. Lots of haters, for example.
So being excluded from the playoffs=having haters! In the words of Micheal Irvin "Come on Man!"
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 10:30:14 am
A starkly unexamined position....
lol.. That may be your opinion. I find this subject trite and repetitive. Troll on HeberFan..
Quote from: LS80 on December 15, 2020, 10:51:19 am
lol.. That may be your opinion. I find this subject trite and repetitive. Troll on HeberFan..
It is repetitive because many can't accept the enduring inequalities of life.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 10:52:46 am
It is repetitive because many can't accept the enduring inequalities of life.
Some can and some cannot. It is what it is. Public/Private its a choice. They should be separate. End of discussion on my part.
Quote from: LS80 on December 15, 2020, 11:03:39 am
Some can and some cannot. It is what it is. Public/Private its a choice. They should be separate. End of discussion on my part.
If separation is mandated, choice is removed.
You don't understand binary propositions?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 11:06:03 am
If separation is mandated, choice is removed.
You don't understand binary propositions?
Nice try for deflection. Your factual ignorance is amazing. Want to try another deflection point. smh....
Quote from: LS80 on December 15, 2020, 11:14:17 am
Nice try for deflection. Your factual ignorance is amazing. Want to try another deflection point. smh....
You cry "deflection" when you can't understand a simple line of thought.
Please refute one truth claim. The floor is yours.
Quote from: LS80 on December 15, 2020, 11:14:17 am
Nice try for deflection. Your factual ignorance is amazing. Want to try another deflection point. smh....
If you don't want him to deflect then don't ask him tough questions about his private schools. He gets really defensive for some reason.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 15, 2020, 12:56:06 pm
If you don't want him to deflect then don't ask him tough questions about his private schools. He gets really defensive for some reason.
I'm neither defending public nor private schools. Choice is best. No school is being held hostage to participate in sports.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 01:04:29 pm
I'm neither defending public nor private schools. Choice is best. No school is being held hostage to participate in sports.
No one is held hostage to attend a private school.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 15, 2020, 01:07:55 pm
No one is held hostage to attend a private school.
You're half-way to making a point. Continue, please.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 12:45:49 pm
You cry "deflection" when you can't understand a simple line of thought.
Please refute one truth claim. The floor is yours.
I find your verbiage patronizing, repetitive and in excess. Nor do I need to discuss my line of thought with you. End of discussion. Troll on HeberFan.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 15, 2020, 12:56:06 pm
If you don't want him to deflect then don't ask him tough questions about his private schools. He gets really defensive for some reason.
I just do not put up with bs with the likes of HF..
Quote from: LS80 on December 15, 2020, 01:23:27 pm
I find your verbiage patronizing, repetitive and in excess. Nor do I need to discuss my line of thought with you. End of discussion. Troll on HeberFan.
My writing is neither technical nor verbose. (Among many writing snafus in your post, "Nor" is improperly used in the second sentence. Would explain why, but....)
Any whooo.....
If you can't defend your position, cool. Blab on like the rest of us. I agree this debate is repetitive and in excess. It was settled long ago.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 01:30:54 pm
My writing is neither technical nor verbose. (Among many writing snafus in your post, "Nor" is improperly used in the second sentence. Would explain why, but....)
Any whooo.....
If you can't defend your position, cool. Blab on like the rest of us. I agree this debate is repetitive and in excess. It was settled long ago.
Do your self a favor for us all troll on. (Along with the many pearls of wisdoms that you spout out of your arse..) I don't have to defend my position especially to a troll like you.
Quote from: LS80 on December 15, 2020, 01:37:10 pm
Do your self a favor for us all troll on. (Along with the many pearls of wisdoms that you spout out of your arse..) I don't have to defend my position especially to a troll like you.
"Do your self a favor for us..."
If I do a favor, for myself, how can it be for you?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 01:39:50 pm
"Do your self a favor for us..."
If I do a favor, for myself, how can it be for you?
I will let you figure that out... What a maroon...smh
Quote from: LS80 on December 15, 2020, 01:37:10 pm
Do your self a favor for us all troll on. (Along with the many pearls of wisdoms that you spout out of your arse..) I don't have to defend my position especially to a troll like you.
Defending a position with which you disagree does not make one a "troll". It just means they disagree. Sometimes that can be tough. Even painful.
One option would be for FF to create a private board. We could force all the people who disagree with you and others over to that one.
Just thinking out loud here.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 15, 2020, 02:10:26 pm
Defending a position with which you disagree does not make one a "troll". It just means they disagree. Sometimes that can be tough. Even painful.
One option would be for FF to create a private board. We could force all the people who disagree with you and others over to that one.
Just thinking out loud here.
You are suggesting public and private boards? What is this, Texas ?
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 15, 2020, 02:10:26 pm
Defending a position with which you disagree does not make one a "troll". It just means they disagree. Sometimes that can be tough. Even painful.
One option would be for FF to create a private board. We could force all the people who disagree with you and others over to that one.
Just thinking out loud here.
He is a TROLL just go look on the other boards!
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 15, 2020, 02:13:41 pm
He is a TROLL just go look on the other boards!
Hogman is consistent.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 02:12:36 pm
You are suggesting public and private boards? What is this, Texas ?
I actually kinda like that, I mean, you guys already insisted on having your own schools. Having your own football league and message board she be a piece of cake compared to having your own school. I mean, part time youth coaches can form a football league, and internet amateurs can form their own chat rooms, but not everyone can make their own school. I like one of your ideas for once. Then, you wouldn't have to mess with us peasants, you can talk with the others who bought a much better education than ours. Think about it Heber, you wouldn't have to correct peoples grammar anymore!
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 15, 2020, 02:18:25 pm
I actually kinda like that, I mean, you guys already insisted on having your own schools. Having your own football league and message board she be a piece of cake compared to having your own school. I mean, part time youth coaches can form a football league, and internet amateurs can form their own chat rooms, but not everyone can make their own school. I like one of your ideas for once. Then, you wouldn't have to mess with us peasants, you can talk with the others who bought a much better education than ours.
Isn't our country divided enough?
Public and private schools both offer outstanding educations. Students just have to want it.
The only school Bill Gates graduated was Lakeside High School in Seattle. Worked out for him.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 02:24:51 pm
Isn't our country divided enough? Public and private schools both offer outstanding educations, the students just have to want it.
So it's the kids, not the teachers?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 02:34:30 pm
It's many things.
You said the kids just have to want it......
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 15, 2020, 02:36:00 pm
You said the kids just have to want it......
Kids who are hungry to learn can usually find a way.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 15, 2020, 02:40:51 pm
Like what?
A partial list includes:
- school physical environment
- school social environment
- student interest
- student aptitude
- teacher experience
- teacher ability
- school policies
- home environment
- home support
- access to mentors
- community safety
I could list much more, but, you get the point.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 15, 2020, 02:33:09 pm
So it's the kids, not the teachers?
He is such an IDIOT!! Troll
"End of discussion!!!!"
But let's discuss some more.
This is the last thing im going to say on this matter!!!
Until I say something else about it.
Quote from: panther07 on December 15, 2020, 02:51:54 pm
This is the last thing im going to say on this matter!!!
Until I say something else about it.
That be funny.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 02:44:38 pm
A partial list includes:
- school physical environment
- school social environment
- student interest
- student aptitude
- teacher experience
- teacher ability
- school policies
- home environment
- home support
- access to mentors
- community safety
I could list much more, but, you get the point.
Actually no I don't. So you are saying all schools have these things on your list? I'm assuming so, you said that public schools and private schools both offer outstanding educations and the kids just have to want it.
All those factors, and more, impact a student's education. They can be overcome, to varying degrees, by the desire of a student to learn.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 02:58:53 pm
All those factors, and more, impact a student's education. They can be overcome, to varying degrees, by the desire of a student to learn.
So it's the kids, not the teachers or school?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 15, 2020, 03:00:25 pm
So it's the kids, not the teachers or school?
Allow me to repeat myself, it is many things.
Some kids learn, despite hardships. Others screw up the best of opportunities.
To sum up my reasoning for a Public/Private School split:
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- 5 of the current 8 football playing private schools have won state titles in the past 20 years. 4 of them make up 2% of the AAA football teams but account for 20% of the state titles in classes with private school teams.
- There isn't one public school in 4A with enrollment numbers like PA or LRCA that could possibly beat majority of 6A and 7A teams. In any year.
- Private schools have been dominant in the other sports in the state. Not just football.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
- Nearly every state either has or are in talks of splitting Public and Private schools. This is not just a Arkansas issue
- Majority of non-Texas high school football national champions in the past 20 years are Private Schools. There are like 10 different private schools with national titles in this span.
- St. John Bosco and Don Bosco Prep are national powerhouses with nearly 5A enrollment numbers. De La Salle barely has 1000 students. Most public school powerhouses are at schools with over 2000 students.
- Texas is the king of high school football and has public and private schools split because of foreseeing these issues.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 03:02:44 pm
Allow me to repeat myself, it is many things.
Some kids learn, despite hardships. Others screw up the best of opportunities.
So I want to make sure I understand, some kids screw up no matter who is teaching them and some kids are successful no matter who is teaching them? So in other words, the kids are the biggest factor in the quality of education?
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 15, 2020, 03:05:37 pm
To sum up my reasoning for a Public/Private School split:
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- 5 of the current 8 football playing private schools have won state titles in the past 20 years. 4 of them make up 2% of the AAA football teams but account for 20% of the state titles in classes with private school teams.
- There isn't one public school in 4A with enrollment numbers like PA or LRCA that could possibly beat majority of 6A and 7A teams. In any year.
- Private schools have been dominant in the other sports in the state. Not just football.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
- Nearly every state either has or are in talks of splitting Public and Private schools. This is not just a Arkansas issue
- Majority of non-Texas high school football national champions in the past 20 years are Private Schools. There are like 10 different private schools with national titles in this span.
- St. John Bosco and Don Bosco Prep are national powerhouses with nearly 5A enrollment numbers. De La Salle barely has 1000 students. Most public school powerhouses are at schools with over 2000 students.
- Texas is the king of high school football and has public and private schools split because of foreseeing these issues.
That is a well researched line of reasoning. There are reasons to split public and private schools. Just not sure forced parody is a strong enough foundation. Lots of people do. Cool, either way.
Ain't s... Going to happen cause public school dads living through they sons!...🤷🏾♂️ when they srs and yo a.. Doing damage patrol because a private school done ended his a.. Don't say a d... Word about it!...🤷🏾♂️ yo a.. Ain't saying s... Now so no one wants to hear yo weak a.. Then!...🤷🏾♂️
Quote from: MT Legend on December 15, 2020, 04:04:01 pm
Ain't s... Going to happen cause public school dads living through they sons!...🤷🏾♂️ when they srs and yo a.. Doing damage patrol because a private school done ended his a.. Don't say a d... Word about it!...🤷🏾♂️ yo a.. Ain't saying s... Now so no one wants to hear yo weak a.. Then!...🤷🏾♂️
🤷🏼♂️
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 15, 2020, 03:07:12 pm
So I want to make sure I understand, some kids screw up no matter who is teaching them and some kids are successful no matter who is teaching them? So in other words, the kids are the biggest factor in the quality of education?
The student is the biggest part of the equation -- can embrace or waste opportunity.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 04:25:48 pm
The student is the biggest part of the equation -- can embrace or waste opportunity.
YAWN!!
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 15, 2020, 04:30:38 pm
YAWN!!
Speaking of someone who slept through English class.....
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 15, 2020, 03:05:37 pm
To sum up my reasoning for a Public/Private School split:
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
-
School of choice means that at least in Central Arkansas, boundaries dont exist. North Little Rock ran an ad on tv, that at the bottom of the screen said, "Student does not have to live within the school boundaries to attend"
Coaching and socio-economic reasons are the 2 HUGE benefits that Private School kids have over public school.
Quote from: STBruin on December 15, 2020, 04:34:31 pm
School of choice means that at least in Central Arkansas, boundaries dont exist. North Little Rock ran an ad on tv, that at the bottom of the screen said, "Student does not have to live within the school boundaries to attend"
Coaching and socio-economic reasons are the 2 HUGE benefits that Private School kids have over public school.
I wouldn't even say coaching is a huge benefit, bc you never know! I just hate this argument.
Quote from: STBruin on December 15, 2020, 04:34:31 pm
School of choice means that at least in Central Arkansas, boundaries dont exist. North Little Rock ran an ad on tv, that at the bottom of the screen said, "Student does not have to live within the school boundaries to attend"
Coaching and socio-economic reasons are the 2 HUGE benefits that Private School kids have over public school.
Come on now, public schools don't recruit....
On a side note, I seen a big billboard in Greenbrier advertising the school choice application deadline for students to apply to attend Quitman.... Pretty sure Asking
Quote from: STBruin on December 15, 2020, 04:34:31 pm
School of choice means that at least in Central Arkansas, boundaries dont exist. North Little Rock ran an ad on tv, that at the bottom of the screen said, "Student does not have to live within the school boundaries to attend"
Coaching and socio-economic reasons are the 2 HUGE benefits that Private School kids have over public school.
Any school that accepts school choice or has no attendance boundary should be in the hypothetical private school league
Quote from: HeberFan on December 15, 2020, 04:31:26 pm
Speaking of someone who slept through English class.....
Nobody cares what you think give it up!
Quote from: HorseFeathers on December 15, 2020, 09:36:01 pm
Come on now, public schools don't recruit....
On a side note, I seen a big billboard in Greenbrier advertising the school choice application deadline for students to apply to attend Quitman.... Pretty sure Asking
Any school that accepts school choice or has no attendance boundary should be in the hypothetical private school league
Then the private school league will end up the League we currently play have. Nobody is turning down students.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 15, 2020, 03:05:37 pm
To sum up my reasoning for a Public/Private School split:
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- 5 of the current 8 football playing private schools have won state titles in the past 20 years. 4 of them make up 2% of the AAA football teams but account for 20% of the state titles in classes with private school teams.
- There isn't one public school in 4A with enrollment numbers like PA or LRCA that could possibly beat majority of 6A and 7A teams. In any year.
- Private schools have been dominant in the other sports in the state. Not just football.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
- Nearly every state either has or are in talks of splitting Public and Private schools. This is not just a Arkansas issue
- Majority of non-Texas high school football national champions in the past 20 years are Private Schools. There are like 10 different private schools with national titles in this span.
- St. John Bosco and Don Bosco Prep are national powerhouses with nearly 5A enrollment numbers. De La Salle barely has 1000 students. Most public school powerhouses are at schools with over 2000 students.
- Texas is the king of high school football and has public and private schools split because of foreseeing these issues.
Good post.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 15, 2020, 03:05:37 pm
To sum up my reasoning for a Public/Private School split:
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- 5 of the current 8 football playing private schools have won state titles in the past 20 years. 4 of them make up 2% of the AAA football teams but account for 20% of the state titles in classes with private school teams.
- There isn't one public school in 4A with enrollment numbers like PA or LRCA that could possibly beat majority of 6A and 7A teams. In any year.
- Private schools have been dominant in the other sports in the state. Not just football.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
- Nearly every state either has or are in talks of splitting Public and Private schools. This is not just a Arkansas issue
- Majority of non-Texas high school football national champions in the past 20 years are Private Schools. There are like 10 different private schools with national titles in this span.
- St. John Bosco and Don Bosco Prep are national powerhouses with nearly 5A enrollment numbers. De La Salle barely has 1000 students. Most public school powerhouses are at schools with over 2000 students.
- Texas is the king of high school football and has public and private schools split because of foreseeing these issues.
Private schools already go all over the country playing folks!...🤷🏾♂️ how come they don't Just play each other each week? And at the end have a nation wide private school national championship game?...🤷🏾♂️
"Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages."
Bingo Sweetfeet.
Who wants a "second class" state championship, knowing they aren't the best team? Seems hollow.
Son: "Look mom, we're the best team in Arkansas. Well, except for those other two schools."
Mom: "Yes, dear. You are the best by far. If only you could play those private boys. We know they have a separate league because they're afraid to play your team. Let me get some cookies for you."
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 12:32:20 pm
Who wants a "second class" state championship, knowing they aren't the best team? Seems hollow.
Son: "Look mom, we're the best team in Arkansas. Well, except for those other two schools."
Mom: "Yes, dear. You are the best by far. If only you could play those private boys. We know they have a separate league because they're afraid to play your team. Let me get some cookies for you."
Better not have classifications then. The 2A, 3A, 4A, 5A, and 6A state champs all have to deal with knowing they aren't the best this year. If your going to be snide, can you at least be correct?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 12:32:20 pm
Who wants a "second class" state championship, knowing they aren't the best team? Seems hollow.
Son: "Look mom, we're the best team in Arkansas. Well, except for those other two schools."
Mom: "Yes, dear. You are the best by far. If only you could play those private boys. We know they have a separate league because they're afraid to play your team. Let me get some cookies for you."
It's pretty easy to make the argument against the other side.
Mom: "Honey, you did so good beating those disadvantaged kids who couldn't afford to play in travel leagues when they were younger, can't afford to go to camps around the nation, and also don't have the ability to choose a different school to play for so they have to play for the school with less talent next to their house."
Son: "Thanks mom! It's good to know I can beat kids who are significantly disadvantaged compared to me!"
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 12:58:12 pm
Better not have classifications then. The 2A, 3A, 4A, 5A, and 6A state champs all have to deal with knowing they aren't the best this year.
That's another way to see it. Bryant is THE best team in Arkansas.
Competition tends to be grouped for a semblance of parody. Many sports segregate males and females. Boxing has weight divisions, college has enrollment divisions, auto racing has engine restrictions, etc.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 01:03:35 pm
That's another way to see it. Bryant is THE best team in Arkansas.
Competition tends to be grouped for a semblance of parody. Many sports segregate males and females. Boxing has weight divisions, college has enrollment divisions, auto racing has engine restrictions, etc.
A lot of those examples are for safety as much as parody. Just FYI.
Quote from: ArkansasSportsFan on December 16, 2020, 01:01:35 pm
It's pretty easy to make the argument against the other side.
Mom: "Honey, you did so good beating those disadvantaged kids who couldn't afford to play in travel leagues when they were younger, can't afford to go to camps around the nation, and also don't have the ability to choose a different school to play for so they have to play for the school with less talent next to their house."
Son: "Thanks mom! It's good to know I can beat kids who are significantly disadvantaged compared to me!"
If you "make the argument against the other side," aren't you arguing for this side? Double negatives are problematic.
Sure, public schools have advantages. You know the biggest, by far?
Kevin Kelley.
Take out KK's record and show me how private schools dominate Arkansas football. You can't factually do it.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 01:09:01 pm
If you "make the argument against the other side," aren't you arguing for this side? Double negatives are problematic.
Sure, public schools have advantages. You know the biggest, by far?
Kevin Kelley.
Take out KK's record and show me how private schools dominate Arkansas football. You can't factually do it.
PA, LRC, Shiloh, Harding. Done. I'm actually being serious, can you be correct in something you argue on here, even if it's just once?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 01:09:01 pm
If you "make the argument against the other side," aren't you arguing for this side? Double negatives are problematic.
Sure, public schools have advantages. You know the biggest, by far?
Kevin Kelley.
Take out KK's record and show me how private schools dominate Arkansas football. You can't factually do it.
Forgive me, I'm making an argument against private schools, which would be the other side.
I'm also not an English teacher, but I don't believe that my statement classifies as a double negative if it doesn't contain two negative statements in it. "Against" was my only negative statement in that sentence.
PA -- Zero titles before Kelley. Nine since.
LRC -- one title.
Shiloh -- seven titles since 1998
Harding Academy -- six titles since 1976.
Without KK, privates have won 14 out of 132 titles, in three divisions, since 1976. About 11 percent. Far from domination.
To skew the numbers as favorably as possible for the privates, with KK, those four schools have won 18 of 54 titles since 2002. About 33%. Far from domination.
Last stat: PA won six of the last seven titles. About 86%. That is certainly domination. Thus many in here say, "Make it stop!"
Done.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 01:24:46 pm
PA -- Zero titles before Kelley. Nine since.
LRC -- one title.
Shiloh -- seven titles since 1998
Harding Academy -- six titles since 1976.
Without KK, privates have won 14 out of 132 titles, in three divisions, since 1976. About 11 percent. Far from domination.
To skew the numbers as favorably as possible for the privates, with KK, those four schools have won 18 of 54 titles since 2002. About 33%. Far from domination.
Done.
How many have JC, Greenwood, Fayetteville, and Nashville won since 2002?
The answer to that question is 23.
There are great programs on both sides. This whole issue, in Arkansas, revolves around PA. They're an outlier. And I'm very very doubtful legislation will happen based on one team alone. Yes, there are other private schools who are very good. But theyre not winning at an astronimical clip like the bruins. They're much more on par with the really good public schools. If PA was just another HA, none of this would be an issue.
+ 23
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 01:24:46 pm
PA -- Zero titles before Kelley. Nine since.
LRC -- one title.
Shiloh -- seven titles since 1998
Harding Academy -- six titles since 1976.
Without KK, privates have won 14 out of 132 titles, in three divisions, since 1976. About 11 percent. Far from domination.
To skew the numbers as favorably as possible for the privates, with KK, those four schools have won 18 of 54 titles since 2002. About 33%. Far from domination.
Last stat: PA won six of the last seven titles. About 86%. That is certainly domination. Thus many in here say, "Make it stop!"
Done.
What size school was say Bryant in 1976? You can't go back that far for either side of this argument. You can't even go back to the 90s and it have validity. Schools grow and change populations. Private schools upgrade facilities, upgrade pay for teachers, change whose in charge of their school and it's individual programs, the person in charge of football changes. Some people are better coaches than others sure, and some are more willing and better at finding loopholes to get talented kids into the school and win. If that person leaves, and a person of higher integrity enters and the school starts losing again, is he a lesser coach or another good coach who just refused to bend the rules to win? I don't claim to know if KK is a rule bender, breaker, or follower, but he's definitely in a eerily similar situation to so many other private schools across the country.
The conversation about private schools doesn't happen as loudly if some private schools don't take their advantages to far. But the fact remains, the loopholes are clearly much easier for private schools to find and the wrong people in charge will exploit them and ruin it for the good ones. Plenty of national examples of private schools "dominating" their state have been shown on this thread. It's much harder to find public schools that do it.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 02:15:48 pm
What size school was say Bryant in 1976? You can't go back that far for either side of this argument. You can't even go back to the 90s and it have validity. Schools grow and change populations. Private schools upgrade facilities, upgrade pay for teachers, change whose in charge of their school and it's individual programs, the person in charge of football changes. Some people are better coaches than others sure, and some are more willing and better at finding loopholes to get talented kids into the school and win. If that person leaves, and a person of higher integrity enters and the school starts losing again, is he a lesser coach or another good coach who just refused to bend the rules to win? I don't claim to know if KK is a rule bender, breaker, or follower, but he's definitely in a eerily similar situation to so many other private schools across the country.
The conversation about private schools doesn't happen as loudly if some private schools don't take their advantages to far. But the fact remains, the loopholes are clearly much easier for private schools to find and the wrong people in charge will exploit them and ruin it for the good ones. Plenty of national examples of private schools "dominating" their state have been shown on this thread. It's much harder to find public schools that do it.
In the 2000s, privates have won 33% of state titles. Not domination.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 02:25:10 pm
In the 2000s, privates have won 33% of state titles. Not domination.
How many private schools compete in football compared to public schools?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 02:25:10 pm
In the 2000s, privates have won 33% of state titles. Not domination.
How about since 2010, what percentage of semi-finals or further for private schools? Your data is scewed if for no reason other than PA and LRC have been competing for the same state title so only one can win it.
7a- Catholic
6a- Nobody
5a- PA, LRCA
4a- Shiloh, Subiaco, CAC
3a- HA, Baptist Prep
2a- Nobody?
I admittedly don't know much about 2a and 3a schools and I might have missed some.
So there's 8 private schools out of around 200 schools that own 1/3 of championships.
That's 4% that are taking 33%. Simply saying 33% does not work, but you knew that before you ever posted that comment.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 02:38:45 pm
How about since 2010, what percentage of semi-finals or further for private schools? Your data is scewed if for no reason other than PA and LRC have been competing for the same state title so only one can win it.
PA won the 5A title in seven of the last eight years. LRCA and the public schools were common victims.
Concerning the semis, the best the privates did was get 50% in the semi-finals, that being PA and LRCA in 5A. Other divisions performed much worse.
Still no domination, unless you count the last eight years in 5A. That is obliteration.
Quote from: ArkansasSportsFan on December 16, 2020, 02:44:30 pm
7a- Catholic
6a- Nobody
5a- PA, LRCA
4a- Shiloh, Subiaco, CAC
3a- HA, Baptist Prep
2a- Nobody?
I admittedly don't know much about 2a and 3a schools and I might have missed some.
So there's 8 private schools out of around 200 schools that own 1/3 of championships.
That's 4% that are taking 33%. Simply saying 33% does not work, but you knew that before you ever posted that comment.
PA and Shiloh shatter the bell curve.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 02:50:35 pm
PA won the 5A title in seven of the last eight years. LRCA and the public schools were common victims.
Concerning the semis, the best the privates did was get 50% in the semi-finals, that being PA and LRCA in 5A. Other divisions performed much worse.
Still no domination, unless you count the last eight years in 5A. That is obliteration.
I'm not looking for your interpretation, I'm looking for an actual number in regards to the semis since 2010
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 02:59:27 pm
I'm not looking for your interpretation, I'm looking for an actual number in regards to the semis since 2010
7A can never be over 25%
5A can never be over 50%
4A can never be over 75%
3A can never be over 50%
Averages is 50% maximum.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 03:05:27 pm
7A can never be over 25%
5A can never be over 50%
4A can never be over 75%
3A can never be over 50%
Averages is 50% maximum.
Hmmmmm, I'm sure you can see how I would use that against you and your "that's hardly domination" argument.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 03:08:57 pm
Hmmmmm, I'm sure you can see how I would use that against you and your "that's hardly domination" argument.
I can't. If every private school reaches the semis, the other half is public schools. In actual stats, privates don't perform nearly that well. That's hardly domination.
Quote from: ArkansasSportsFan on December 16, 2020, 02:44:30 pm
7a- Catholic
6a- Nobody
5a- PA, LRCA
4a- Shiloh, Subiaco, CAC
3a- HA, Baptist Prep
2a- Nobody?
I admittedly don't know much about 2a and 3a schools and I might have missed some.
So there's 8 private schools out of around 200 schools that own 1/3 of championships.
That's 4% that are taking 33%. Simply saying 33% does not work, but you knew that before you ever posted that comment.
JC, Greenwood, Fayetteville, and Nashville make up what percentage? And they've won more than the 4 public schools. Nobody wanted to acknowledge that argument.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 03:11:16 pm
I can't. If every private school reaches the semis, the other half is public schools. In actual stats, privates don't perform nearly that well. That's hardly domination.
What actual stats? I keep waiting to see something.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 03:13:37 pm
What actual stats? I keep waiting to see something.
Baptist Prep and Subiaco have never reached the semis. It's been 15 years for LR Catholic and CAC.
Go see for yourself on the "team" pages.
These four schools missed the semis about 96% of the time in the last 15 years.
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 03:12:29 pm
JC, Greenwood, Fayetteville, and Nashville make up what percentage? And they've won more than the 4 public schools. Nobody wanted to acknowledge that argument.
Make up what percentage of what?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 03:19:30 pm
Make up what percentage of what?
That's in response to private schools make up 4% of the schools ans have won 1/3rd of the ships.
There's 4 public schools with a higher percentage of titles. There is dominance on both sides.
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 03:24:03 pm
That's in response to private schools make up 4% of the schools ans have won 1/3rd of the ships.
There's 4 public schools with a higher percentage of titles. There is dominance on both sides.
Now you'll confuse him with the concept of duality. I've had trouble leading him in 5th grade math. :o)
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 03:24:03 pm
That's in response to private schools make up 4% of the schools ans have won 1/3rd of the ships.
There's 4 public schools with a higher percentage of titles. There is dominance on both sides.
How far back does your "data" go?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 03:27:04 pm
Now you'll confuse him with the concept of duality. I've had trouble leading him in 5th grade math. :o)
Dude, you can't even answer basic direct questions.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 03:32:29 pm
Dude, you can't even answer basic direct questions.
You wanted facts and statistics. I gave both, from 20-year and 10-year periods. Your questions are answered, save one:
How can PA and Shiloh be stopped?
No team seems to have that answer.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 03:31:44 pm
How far back does your "data" go?
That was from 2002. Really since the relevance of private schools. The further back it goes, the more and more and more it will slant towards public
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 03:35:51 pm
That was from 2002. Really since the relevance of private schools. The further back it goes, the more and more and more it will slant towards public
Yea, I've already pointed out the obvious reasons the further back it goes, the more it would point to public schools. Private schools since 2010......still waiting?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 03:34:51 pm
You wanted facts and statistics. I gave both, from 20-year and 10-year periods. Your questions are answered, save one:
How can PA and Shiloh be stopped?
No team seems to have that answer.
You claim to not have half the data I ask for.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 03:14:45 pm
Baptist Prep and Subiaco have never reached the semis. It's been 15 years for LR Catholic and CAC.
Go see for yourself on the "team" pages.
These four schools missed the semis about 96% of the time in the last 15 years.
Maybe they aren't bending the rules.....
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 03:37:51 pm
You claim to not have half the data I ask for.
Do you want how many times private schools have made the semis since 2010 ?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 03:39:18 pm
Maybe they aren't bending the rules.....
All of that is pure speculation. Speculation will get nothing accomplished. Anybody can do that.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 03:41:34 pm
Do you want how many times private schools have made the semis since 2010 ?
Lol, what would make you think I want that?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 03:46:31 pm
Lol, what would make you think I want that?
Private schools reached the semi-finals 27 times since 2010, that's 11 seasons.
There were 132 semi-finalists in that span:
Three divisions x 4 semifinalists x 11 years = 132 semi-final spots.
Privates were 20% of representatives. That isn't near domination.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 03:57:27 pm
Private schools reached the semi-finals 27 times since 2010, that's 11 seasons.
There were 132 semi-finalists in that span:
Three divisions x 4 semifinalists x 11 years = 132 semi-final spots.
Privates were 20% of representatives. That isn't near domination.
What 3 divisions? I've got different numbers than you do.
Why did Texas put private schools in their own league?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 04:06:49 pm
Why did Texas put private schools in their own league?
Don't move the goal posts. Nobody has denied that there is some advantages. But the narrative of domination isn't reality. ESPECIALLY if you remove outliers. Which is how statistics work really.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 04:02:47 pm
What 3 divisions? I've got different numbers than you do.
It should have been four divisions, but, I tossed LR Catholic because they've never sniffed the semis in recent history. Put Catholic back in and private school numbers get worse -- represented in about 15% of the semi-final spots from 2010 to 2020.
Once again, upon once again, no domination
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 04:09:01 pm
Don't move the goal posts. Nobody has denied that there is some advantages. But the narrative of domination isn't reality. ESPECIALLY if you remove outliers. Which is how statistics work really.
Actually the goalposts have been moved several times. You point it out on that question, which is the one I can't seem to get any of you guys to ever answer when I ask it.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 04:09:20 pm
It should have been four divisions, but, I tossed LR Catholic because they've never sniffed the semis in recent history. Put Catholic back in and private school numbers get worse -- represented in about 15% of the semi-final spots from 2010 to 2020.
Once again, upon once again, no domination
What 3 or now 4 divisions? If it's the 3 I think you meant originally I am showing 36 semi-finalists.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 04:13:16 pm
Actually the goalposts have been moved several times. You point it out on that question, which is the one I can't seem to get any of you guys to ever answer when I ask it.
Private schools have an advantage. Texas has enough to form another league. There's your answer. The reason they don't in Arkansas, or haven't yet, is it's not realistic and the numbers really aren't that skewed, other than one.
The top public schools, and the top private schools, win at a very similar clip. Across all divisions. Even with the outlier in the mix.
If PA were another HA, this wouldn't be a problem. This boils down to Pulaski academy.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 04:14:36 pm
What 3 or now 4 divisions? If it's the 3 I think you meant originally I am showing 36 semi-finalists.
7A - Catholic
5A - PA and LRCA
4A - CAC, Baptist Prep and Subiaco
3A - Harding Academy
Four divisions x four semi-finalists x 11 years = 176 potential semi-finalists.
Over the last eight years, pretty much the only way to deal with Pulaski Academy, has been to put on a light blue sweater. Some folks have a hard time with that.
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 04:15:25 pm
Private schools have an advantage. Texas has enough to form another league. There's your answer. The reason they don't in Arkansas, or haven't yet, is it's not realistic and the numbers really aren't that skewed, other than one.
[/quote
I commend you. There aren't many of you guys who will at least admit it.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 04:20:12 pm
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 04:15:25 pm
Private schools have an advantage. Texas has enough to form another league. There's your answer. The reason they don't in Arkansas, or haven't yet, is it's not realistic and the numbers really aren't that skewed, other than one.
[/quote
I commend you. There aren't many of you guys who will at least admit it.
But I'm very confident that the vast majority of the advantage lies in a similar situation to affluent communities who care about football. Resources. Both at the school and at home. There are transfers that happen. But it happens at these same prominent public schools as well. If school choice is a reality, then we won't be splitting up based on that. School choice in central and NWA already puts others at a disadvantage. Private schools removed.
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 04:15:25 pm
Private schools have an advantage. Texas has enough to form another league. There's your answer. The reason they don't in Arkansas, or haven't yet, is it's not realistic and the numbers really aren't that skewed, other than one.
The top public schools, and the top private schools, win at a very similar clip. Across all divisions. Even with the outlier in the mix.
If PA were another HA, this wouldn't be a problem. This boils down to Pulaski academy.
I agree that PA has made this a bigger issue in Arkansas. The fact remains that there are loopholes for private schools and the AAA doesn't have the manpower to police compliance. So the possibility will always be there for someone to play the loopholes and stack their rosters. PA won't be the last in Arkansas, really they aren't even the first, see Shiloh Christians past. That's why separation is necessary.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 04:34:03 pm
I agree that PA has made this a bigger issue in Arkansas. The fact remains that there are loopholes for private schools and the AAA doesn't have the manpower to police compliance. So the possibility will always be there for someone to play the loopholes and stack their rosters. PA won't be the last in Arkansas, really they aren't even the first, see Shiloh Christians past. That's why separation is necessary.
Kinda like a school choice loophole? HA lost two starters on defense to searcy this offseason. Immediately eligible. They have to sit if it happens in reverse. And one was their leading tackler by long ways and made all state. HA hasn't gotten a transfer from searcy in 5 years and he had to sit as an 8th grader. Now, I'm certain it happens inside a metro Area much much more, but so does school choice. There's loopholes everywhere.
Shiloh and PA's dominance both started with one thing. A savant. There's nothing else to it, at least totally out of the ordinary. They are both groundbreaking. And like Shiloh, PA will come back to reality at some point. Shiloh is obviously still good, but they aren't wining it every year. We can't send the private schools away just for being good programs.
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 04:38:57 pm
Kinda like a school choice loophole? HA lost two starters on defense to searcy this offseason. Immediately eligible. They have to sit if it happens in reverse. And one was their leading tackler by long ways and made all state. HA hasn't gotten a transfer from searcy in 5 years and he had to sit as an 8th grader. Now, I'm certain it happens inside a metro Area much much more, but so does school choice. There's loopholes everywhere.
Shiloh and PA's dominance both started with one thing. A savant. There's nothing else to it, at least totally out of the ordinary. They are both groundbreaking. And like Shiloh, PA will come back to reality at some point. Shiloh is obviously still good, but they aren't wining it every year. We can't send the private schools away just for being good programs.
If one of them had an unfair advantage in one game it's to much and something should be done. You have acknowledged they have advantages.
We can send them away for being private schools and not being public schools. Still baffles me that regardless of what happens on any playing field or court that they don't have their own league. They are PRIVATE. Harrison's kids last year and Wynnes kids this year deserved better. It's not like those kids have a private school in their town they can attend. It's not a choice for them. And 56-0 at halftime in a semi-final tells me all I need to know about Shiloh.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 05:43:19 pm
If one of them had an unfair advantage in one game it's to much and something should be done. You have acknowledged they have advantages.
We can send them away for being private schools and not being public schools. Still baffles me that regardless of what happens on any playing field or court that they don't have their own league. They are PRIVATE. Harrison's kids last year and Wynnes kids this year deserved better. It's not like those kids have a private school in their town they can attend.
You're refusing to see the other side. That's why this argument sucks man. If there's a good point made, we just move to something else. There's unfair from public schools too. You're just not wanting to see it or admit it because it diminishes your narrative. It's never going to be fair. Never. Life isn't. And I don't mean to sound like the other folks who, like I just mentioned, don't see the other side, but advantages are all around us. That's reality.
Some public schools have indoor facilities. Some have brand new weight rooms. Some don't. So, Is that fair? Where do we draw the fair line? And the line between private and public isn't the answer here. That's moving the goal posts. What's fair? What's not? Between public schools. Teams aren't even.
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 05:47:35 pm
You're refusing to see the other side. That's why this argument sucks man. If there's a good point made, we just move to something else. There's unfair from public schools too. You're just not wanting to see it or admit it because it diminishes your narrative. It's never going to be fair. Never. Life isn't. And I don't mean to sound like the other folks who, like I just mentioned, don't see the other side, but advantages are all around us. That's reality.
Some public schools have indoor facilities. Some have brand new weight rooms. Some don't. So, Is that fair? Where do we draw the fair line? And the line between private and public isn't the answer here. That's moving the goal posts. What's fair? What's not? Between public schools. Teams aren't even.
The difference is that public schools didn't choose to break away from private schools. That's why it is a fair argument. It's like a wife leaving her husband but insisting on using his pool, home-theatre, etc.
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 05:47:35 pm
You're refusing to see the other side. That's why this argument sucks man. If there's a good point made, we just move to something else. There's unfair from public schools too. You're just not wanting to see it or admit it because it diminishes your narrative. It's never going to be fair. Never. Life isn't. And I don't mean to sound like the other folks who, like I just mentioned, don't see the other side, but advantages are all around us. That's reality.
Some public schools have indoor facilities. Some have brand new weight rooms. Some don't. So, Is that fair? Where do we draw the fair line? And the line between private and public isn't the answer here. That's moving the goal posts. What's fair? What's not? Between public schools. Teams aren't even.
And as a follow up, you inadvertently are making a point for me. Why aren't people gripping about public schools? It is always private schools. Why? It's always the private schools that win 7 titles in a row, that win 250 straight games, that break the national scoring records, that win conference 20 years in a row. It's almost never public schools. Why?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 05:57:21 pm
The difference is that public schools didn't choose to break away from private schools. That's why it is a fair argument. It's like a wife leaving her husband but insisting on using his pool, home-theatre, etc.
Remember when you insisted on having a question answered? Now it's your turn. How do we deal unfairness amongst public schools? We need level playing field.
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 06:00:51 pm
Remember when you insisted on having a question answered? Now it's your turn. How do we deal unfairness amongst public schools? We need level playing field.
You put them in classifications based on school size.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 16, 2020, 06:23:55 pm
You put them in classifications based on school size.
And it's still not fair. They're still not equal. There are still have and have nots. Nashville has an indoor and have for years. Not even close to all 4a schools do. Nashville is at an advantage.
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 06:29:50 pm
And it's still not fair. They're still not equal. There are still have and have nots. Nashville has an indoor and have for years. Not even close to all 4a schools do. Nashville is at an advantage.
Cool. They are playing by the same rules as other public schools.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 01:09:01 pm
Take out KK's record and show me how private schools dominate Arkansas football. You can't factually do it.
Does that include all the years PA has knocked out LRCA in the past 5 years? If they didn meet in the Semis, they met in the state finals. If PA isn't in the picture, LRCA likely takes those rings.
Since 2000, Shiloh Christian has 5 state titles, while Harding Academy has 4. The only 4A, 3A, and 2A schools with that many titles in that span is Warren (4), Nashville (4), Charleston (4), and Junction City (7). And after this coming week, Junction City might be the only team across those 3 classifications that match Shiloh and Harding Academy in titles in this span.
There are currently only 5 private schools across 4A, 3A, and 2A, and 3 of them have won state titles since 2000. 2 of them after this week can be in the top 3 for most state titles amongst all teams in these 3 classifications since 2000.
Baptist Prep hasn't been too good. Conway Christian is only 10 years old as a 11-man team and has had 4 10 win seasons and a semifinal run. They are slowly coming. Catholic is hampered by being an all boys school, since most good athletes don't wanna be at a school without the opposite sex.
Here's the big bomb:
Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian this week has a chance to join Pulaski Academy in the Top 10 for the most football state titles in Arkansas history. AGAIN,
there are only 8 11-man private schools and 3 of them are possibly going to be in the Top 10 for most football state titles in Arkansas history. And they are doing it in a class higher than their enrollment allows. Shiloh and PA didn't even start winning their titles until the late 90s-early 2000s. To put even more perspective in it, PA and Shiloh, weren't even schools until the 70s ;D
People can't sit here and pretend like Private Schools don't dominate or have advantages that public schools dont
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 02:25:10 pm
In the 2000s, privates have won 33% of state titles. Not domination.
Considering they make up less than 5% of all Football teams in the state, using mathematics that's very dominant. And that's including AAAA and 6A Titles where there are no private schools to win in those classes.
Most state titles since the 70s:
Greenwood - 10
Pulaski Academy- 9
Barton - 8
Shiloh Christian- 7 for now
Harding Academy- 7 for now
LR Central - 7
Junction City -7
FS Southside- 7
Rison 7
Pine Bluff- 6
McGehee- 6
Perspectives:
- Pulaski Academy and Shiloh Christian weren't schools until 1971
- Greenwood won 4 of it's state titles in a class without private schools.
- Pulaski Academy moved down to 4A for 2 years (2010 and 2011) and went to state those two years. They won in 2011 and lost in 2010 to Shiloh Christian (another private school)
- Junction City moved up to 3A for 2 years after dominating 2A (2016-2017). They got put out the 2nd round in 2016 and got blasted in the state title in 2017. They have a higher enrollment than Harding Academy who has 3 3A state titles with 2A enrollment numbers.
-In this span, there has never been more than 10 private schools in any year. In otherwords, less than 5% of all football teams have always been private schools.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 03:27:04 pm
Now you'll confuse him with the concept of duality. I've had trouble leading him in 5th grade math. :o)
Okay jerk, you've already failed at trying to seem smarter in English, don't try and fail at another subject.
You posted a biased response with numbers that don't tell the whole story, and I added to it and made it more factually relevant and accurate. There's no reason to make stuff like this personal and act like you're a middle school student.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 16, 2020, 04:09:20 pm
It should have been four divisions, but, I tossed LR Catholic because they've never sniffed the semis in recent history. Put Catholic back in and private school numbers get worse -- represented in about 15% of the semi-final spots from 2010 to 2020.
Once again, upon once again, no domination
You aren't factoring the law of ratios in these semifinal/title numbers. The 4 divisions you mentioned only has 7 private schools. Thats roughly 3% of all teams. For them to essentially finish in the top 4 15% of the time shows they are mathematically way more successful than public schools. If they made up 15% of the total schools, then that wouldn't be as impressive.
The SEC accounts for 11% of College Football yet are responsible for 33% of the national titles since 1980. Are people not going to say the SEC has been the most dominant in this time span? Or are they going to say 33% is "not dominant"? If the SEC made up 33% of College football in that frame, then it wouldn't be as impressive. But they barely make up a 10th of college football.
The ratio of private to public schools since 2000 has been around 1:24. The ratio of private school titles to public school titles after this year could be 22:92 or roughly 1:4. 1:24 is not equal to 1:4 by any means. And this is not factoring in the titles from classes without private schools, otherwise that championship ratio would be closer to 1:3.
Private schools account for 4% of all teams since 2000 and are responsible for roughly 20% of the titles won. That's almost the equivalent of 1 person out of a group of 20 taking 2 slices of Pizza in a 10-slice box.
I know a common counter argument will be "PA accounts for most of them. Take them away". PA accounts for 12.5% of private school football teams. If we wanted an equal ratio comparison for reference, roughly 13% of public schools (26 teams) are responsible for ALL of the public school football state titles since 2000. Pulaski Academy is 12.5% of private schools and are responsible for only 45% of the private school football state titles.
The counter argument to the above is that an incredibly High number of titles won by public schools is from a very low number of schools. Large portion of titles won, by both public and private, are won by only a small number of Teams. See Greenwood, JC, Nashville, Bryant, Fayetteville etc.
Overall the numbers of titles are won by a signicantly lower number of teams than are represented by the whole state. There are dominant teams on both sides of this issue.
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 11:11:19 pm
The counter argument to the above is that an incredibly High number of titles won by public schools is from a very low number of schools. Large portion of titles won, by both public and private, are won by only a small number of Teams. See Greenwood, JC, Nashville, Bryant, Fayetteville etc.
Overall the numbers of titles are won by a signicantly lower number of teams than are represented by the whole state. There are dominant teams on both sides of this issue.
This is why i used ratios. To paint a better mathematical picture for comparison. PA is responsible for 12.5% of Private Schools and accounts for 45% of the private school titles. 12.5% of Public Schools are roughly responsible for all of the Public school titles in the same span. That shows if you take away the Top 8th percentile of both public and private schools, private schools are still performing better than public schools.
In general, 5/8 private schools (62%) have won state titles since 2000. 24/193 public schools (13%) have won state titles.
Quote from: ArkansasSportsFan on December 16, 2020, 10:49:37 pm
Okay jerk, you've already failed at trying to seem smarter in English, don't try and fail at another subject.
You posted a biased response with numbers that don't tell the whole story, and I added to it and made it more factually relevant and accurate. There's no reason to make stuff like this personal and act like you're a middle school student.
Statistics never tell the whole story, nor do, a host of them.
You know the quote: "There are lies, dang lies and statistics."
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 12:11:23 am
This is why i used ratios. To paint a better mathematical picture for comparison. PA is responsible for 12.5% of Private Schools and accounts for 45% of the private school titles. 12.5% of Public Schools are roughly responsible for all of the Public school titles in the same span. That shows if you take away the Top 8th percentile of both public and private schools, private schools are still performing better than public schools.
In general, 5/8 private schools (62%) have won state titles since 2000. 24/193 public schools (13%) have won state titles.
Nice try, but, those ratios are skewed by the small sample size of private schools.
If there were only two private schools, for example, only three ratios would be possible: 0%, 50% and 100%.
Another example of the weakness of ratio for comparison:
The NBA has 450 players:
Bron Bron James represents 0.2222 percent of those players.
Bron Bron has been in 11 of the last 14 finals, or, 79%.
Does Bron Bron have an unfair advantage? Sure, he's freakin' great!
Did nobody in here take a statistics class?
Quote from: panther07 on December 16, 2020, 11:11:19 pm
The counter argument to the above is that an incredibly High number of titles won by public schools is from a very low number of schools. Large portion of titles won, by both public and private, are won by only a small number of Teams. See Greenwood, JC, Nashville, Bryant, Fayetteville etc.
Overall the numbers of titles are won by a signicantly lower number of teams than are represented by the whole state. There are dominant teams on both sides of this issue.
Right... a relative few public and private schools rule the state. They are "football schools." It's what they do.
How about high school bowling? Private schools have no titles. Cabot rules that game. Shouldn't private schools rule every sport and academic competition, since their advantages are so powerful?
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 12:11:23 am
This is why i used ratios. To paint a better mathematical picture for comparison. PA is responsible for 12.5% of Private Schools and accounts for 45% of the private school titles. 12.5% of Public Schools are roughly responsible for all of the Public school titles in the same span. That shows if you take away the Top 8th percentile of both public and private schools, private schools are still performing better than public schools.
In general, 5/8 private schools (62%) have won state titles since 2000. 24/193 public schools (13%) have won state titles.
You want domination? Watch sweet feet dominate this thread! Darn facts!
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 10:45:56 am
You want domination? Watch sweet feet dominate this thread! Darn facts!
The weakness of ratios, for comparison and contrast, is an an above post.
Example: Rather your team win state title with 10-5 record, or, lose with 14-1 record?
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 16, 2020, 10:57:07 pm
You aren't factoring the law of ratios in these semifinal/title numbers. The 4 divisions you mentioned only has 7 private schools. Thats roughly 3% of all teams. For them to essentially finish in the top 4 15% of the time shows they are mathematically way more successful than public schools. If they made up 15% of the total schools, then that wouldn't be as impressive.
The SEC accounts for 11% of College Football yet are responsible for 33% of the national titles since 1980. Are people not going to say the SEC has been the most dominant in this time span? Or are they going to say 33% is "not dominant"? If the SEC made up 33% of College football in that frame, then it wouldn't be as impressive. But they barely make up a 10th of college football.
The ratio of private to public schools since 2000 has been around 1:24. The ratio of private school titles to public school titles after this year could be 22:92 or roughly 1:4. 1:24 is not equal to 1:4 by any means. And this is not factoring in the titles from classes without private schools, otherwise that championship ratio would be closer to 1:3.
Private schools account for 4% of all teams since 2000 and are responsible for roughly 20% of the titles won. That's almost the equivalent of 1 person out of a group of 20 taking 2 slices of Pizza in a 10-slice box.
I know a common counter argument will be "PA accounts for most of them. Take them away". PA accounts for 12.5% of private school football teams. If we wanted an equal ratio comparison for reference, roughly 13% of public schools (26 teams) are responsible for ALL of the public school football state titles since 2000. Pulaski Academy is 12.5% of private schools and are responsible for only 45% of the private school football state titles.
You the man Sweet Feet!
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 16, 2020, 10:57:07 pm
You aren't factoring the law of ratios in these semifinal/title numbers. The 4 divisions you mentioned only has 7 private schools. Thats roughly 3% of all teams. For them to essentially finish in the top 4 15% of the time shows they are mathematically way more successful than public schools. If they made up 15% of the total schools, then that wouldn't be as impressive.
The SEC accounts for 11% of College Football yet are responsible for 33% of the national titles since 1980. Are people not going to say the SEC has been the most dominant in this time span? Or are they going to say 33% is "not dominant"? If the SEC made up 33% of College football in that frame, then it wouldn't be as impressive. But they barely make up a 10th of college football.
The ratio of private to public schools since 2000 has been around 1:24. The ratio of private school titles to public school titles after this year could be 22:92 or roughly 1:4. 1:24 is not equal to 1:4 by any means. And this is not factoring in the titles from classes without private schools, otherwise that championship ratio would be closer to 1:3.
Private schools account for 4% of all teams since 2000 and are responsible for roughly 20% of the titles won. That's almost the equivalent of 1 person out of a group of 20 taking 2 slices of Pizza in a 10-slice box.
I know a common counter argument will be "PA accounts for most of them. Take them away". PA accounts for 12.5% of private school football teams. If we wanted an equal ratio comparison for reference, roughly 13% of public schools (26 teams) are responsible for ALL of the public school football state titles since 2000. Pulaski Academy is 12.5% of private schools and are responsible for only 45% of the private school football state titles.
No such thing as a "law of ratios." Did you just discover one?
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 16, 2020, 08:28:06 pm
Most state titles since the 70s:
Greenwood - 10
Pulaski Academy- 9
Barton - 8
Shiloh Christian- 7 for now
Harding Academy- 7 for now
LR Central - 7
Junction City -7
FS Southside- 7
Rison 7
Pine Bluff- 6
McGehee- 6
Perspectives:
- Pulaski Academy and Shiloh Christian weren't schools until 1971
- Greenwood won 4 of it's state titles in a class without private schools.
- Pulaski Academy moved down to 4A for 2 years (2010 and 2011) and went to state those two years. They won in 2011 and lost in 2010 to Shiloh Christian (another private school)
- Junction City moved up to 3A for 2 years after dominating 2A (2016-2017). They got put out the 2nd round in 2016 and got blasted in the state title in 2017. They have a higher enrollment than Harding Academy who has 3 3A state titles with 2A enrollment numbers.
-In this span, there has never been more than 10 private schools in any year. In otherwords, less than 5% of all football teams have always been private schools.
Boom!
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 11:04:00 am
Boom!
Yeah, boom! All these teams must have advantages over public schools, right?
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 16, 2020, 08:28:06 pm
Most state titles since the 70s:
Greenwood - 10
Pulaski Academy- 9
Barton - 8
Shiloh Christian- 7 for now
Harding Academy- 7 for now
LR Central - 7
Junction City -7
FS Southside- 7
Rison 7
Pine Bluff- 6
McGehee- 6
Perspectives:
- Pulaski Academy and Shiloh Christian weren't schools until 1971
- Greenwood won 4 of it's state titles in a class without private schools.
- Pulaski Academy moved down to 4A for 2 years (2010 and 2011) and went to state those two years. They won in 2011 and lost in 2010 to Shiloh Christian (another private school)
- Junction City moved up to 3A for 2 years after dominating 2A (2016-2017). They got put out the 2nd round in 2016 and got blasted in the state title in 2017. They have a higher enrollment than Harding Academy who has 3 3A state titles with 2A enrollment numbers.
-In this span, there has never been more than 10 private schools in any year. In otherwords, less than 5% of all football teams have always been private schools.
And your perspectives section of this post! Wow!
More fun with stats:
Keena Turner has four Superbowl Rings, as part of some great 49er teams. According to statistics, that makes him a far superior player than these guys who never won?
Dick Butkus
Bruce Smith
Deacon Jones
Tim Brown
Steve Smith
Barry Sanders
Jim Kelley
Dan Marino
Larry Fitzgerald
Terrell Owens
Statistically, all these guys are losers. Right?
I'll stir the pot a little more (like it needs it)
Haven't seen this posted on here yet, Coach KK interview on Tuesday and was asked about private schools
https://soundcloud.com/1037thebuzz/zone-hour-1-12-15-20
Starts around the 26min mark, private school discussion around 35min
Quote from: Arkiesoccer on December 17, 2020, 11:16:28 am
I'll stir the pot a little more (like it needs it)
Haven't seen this posted on here yet, Coach KK interview on Tuesday and was asked about private schools
https://soundcloud.com/1037thebuzz/zone-hour-1-12-15-20
Starts around the 26min mark, private school discussion around 35min
Thanks for posting. What did KK and the Sunshine Band do after the win? Go back to work and grade film. Guess only private schools can do that.
Quote from: Arkiesoccer on December 17, 2020, 11:16:28 am
I'll stir the pot a little more (like it needs it)
Haven't seen this posted on here yet, Coach KK interview on Tuesday and was asked about private schools
https://soundcloud.com/1037thebuzz/zone-hour-1-12-15-20
Starts around the 26min mark, private school discussion around 35min
So you mean we could have gone to KK and asked him about this topic all along? Man, we could have saved a lot of time. That gives me an idea, maybe the police can start just asking suspects if they committed the crime they are accused of. That would save all sorts of time and money in our court systems.
No, on second thought I'll stick with the overwhelming evidence. And I can't say this enough, Sweet Feet dominating this thread! Read his posts above. Wow!
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 11:21:41 am
Thanks for posting. What did KK and the Sunshine Band do after the win? Go back to work and grade film. Guess only private schools can do that.
Who cares what KK says! U still got that Man crush on KK?
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 17, 2020, 12:00:42 pm
Who cares what KK says! U still got that Man crush on KK?
He says he's not for private or public....I think we can all agree that's been exposed as a lie. He's definitely smitten with KK.
Hogman, you have got to go read sweet feet's posts up top. He owns the private school people. You could see tears on Hebers posts when he tried to respond.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 12:03:14 pm
He says he's not for private or public....I think we can all agree that's been exposed as a lie. He's definitely smitten with KK.
Hogman, you have got to go read sweet feet's posts up top. He owns the private school people. You could see tears on Hebers posts when he tried to respond.
He is wearing them out!! Heber is a moron.
.
Hogman and Zoneblitz must be brothers?
My point, who else grades game film the day of winning a state title?
Admit it, hard work is a big part of success.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 12:37:43 pm
Hogman and Zoneblitz must be brothers?
My point, who else grades game film the day of winning a state title?
Admit it, hard work is a big part of success.
The schools I am familiar with most definitely would if given the opportunity and one I know for a fact does. Those are the things that tell me you are simply enamored with PA and have a bias. How disrespectful it is to coaches across the state and their families who sacrifice the time with them.....for you to make that assessment without knowing. You are ignorant and enamored enough to believe that PA is the only team working incredibly hard. There are coaches in many places who are not being out worked by KK, and they don't have the results. So you are wrong on that point, and because you are, you should be ashamed. I second what several have already said, you are an idiot. I also am convinced you have a major bias.
Sweet feet's posts above are fantastic by the way.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 01:05:25 pm
The schools I am familiar with most definitely would if given the opportunity and one I know for a fact does. Those are the things that tell me you are simply enamored with PA and have a bias. How disrespectful it is to coaches across the state and their families who sacrifice the time with them.....for you to make that assessment without knowing. You are ignorant and enamored enough to believe that PA is the only team working incredibly hard. There are coaches in many places who are not being out worked by KK, and they don't have the results. So you are wrong on that point, and because you are, you should be ashamed. I second what several have already said, you are an idiot. I also am convinced you have a major bias.
Sweet feet's posts above are fantastic by the way.
Hard work is part of success. Not all of it. I didn't make a declaratory statement that other coaches don't work as hard. Just asked what others would grade a game tape the day of winning a title. Please read more carefully.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 01:09:07 pm
Hard work is part of success. Not all of it. I didn't make a declaratory statement that other coaches don't work as hard. Just asked what others would grade a game tape the day of winning a title. Please read more carefully.
I've read your previous posts and combined it with your statement. You should keep up with what you've posted previously, it will make your crawfishing more effective.
Seriously sweet feet's posts! Says it all!
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 01:09:07 pm
Hard work is part of success. Not all of it. I didn't make a declaratory statement that other coaches don't work as hard. Just asked what others would grade a game tape the day of winning a title. Please read more carefully.
You must stalk KK? How do yo know what he does all the time? You are a fool if you dont think other coaches do the same thing!
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 01:11:48 pm
I've read your previous posts and combined it with your statement. You should keep up with what you've posted previously, it will make your crawfishing more effective.
Seriously sweet feet's posts! Says it all!
You made a point my erroneously conflating my posts? Okie dokie.
Speaking of man-crush, you and Sweet Feet should cuddle by the fire. Maybe you are.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 17, 2020, 01:14:14 pm
You must stalk KK? How do yo know what he does all the time? You are a fool if you dont think other coaches do the same thing!
Never said they didn't. Just asked the question. Whatever KK does, you agree, it works?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 10:27:48 am
Nice try, but, those ratios are skewed by the small sample size of private schools.
If there were only two private schools, for example, only three ratios would be possible: 0%, 50% and 100%.
Another example of the weakness of ratio for comparison:
The NBA has 450 players:
Bron Bron James represents 0.2222 percent of those players.
Bron Bron has been in 11 of the last 14 finals, or, 79%.
Does Bron Bron have an unfair advantage? Sure, he's freakin' great!
Did nobody in here take a statistics class?
That made no sense....Lebron is on a team with other players who themselves represent 0.2% of NBA players. So if LeBron goes to the finals, they go too, even if they ride the bench. Same with Celtics benchriders in the 60s. A better example would be individual awards. there are over 4374 NBA players all time. Only 0.2% have won NBA MVP and Finals MVP. Lebron is in that category with Magic, Kareem, Bird, Jordan and a few others. So if you took Statistics class, that should tell you to be in that top 0.2% means you likely are a first ballot HOFer, in which all of them are/will be.
So if anything trying to use Lebron as an example just strengthens my argument. He represents 0.02% of all NBA players and is accountable for accolades that over 99% of the NBA players alltime have never done. The argument of having an unfair advantage is a separate argument considering he does stack his teams, but the point of him dominating as a player is still clear.
you can't ignore ratios just because it proves or disproves a narrative. small sample size or not, private schools are still responsible for 20% of the state titles since 2000 while making up less than 5% of the teams. And 3 out of 8 private schools after this season could be in the Top 10 for most titles all-time. The dominance is obvious, which incites the argument of advantages
Quote from: Arkiesoccer on December 17, 2020, 11:16:28 am
I'll stir the pot a little more (like it needs it)
Haven't seen this posted on here yet, Coach KK interview on Tuesday and was asked about private schools
https://soundcloud.com/1037thebuzz/zone-hour-1-12-15-20
Starts around the 26min mark, private school discussion around 35min
Kelly is quoted in this interview saying they recovered only 3 onside kicks vs Cabot in that famous onside kick game. But he says in other interviews and a sports illustrated article says that they recovered 5 in that game. Just enhancing a point earlier that listening to him may not be the best plan if you want truth.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 01:21:04 pm
That made no sense....Lebron is on a team with other players who themselves represent 0.2% of NBA players. So if LeBron goes to the finals, they go too, even if they ride the bench. Same with Celtics benchriders in the 60s. A better example would be individual awards. there are over 4374 NBA players all time. Only 0.2% have won NBA MVP and Finals MVP. Lebron is in that category with Magic, Kareem, Bird, Jordan and a few others. So if you took Statistics class, that should tell you to be in that top 0.2% means you likely are a first ballot HOFer, in which all of them are/will be.
So if anything trying to use Lebron as an example just strengthens my argument. He represents 0.02% of all NBA players and is accountable for accolades that over 99% of the NBA players alltime have never done. The argument of having an unfair advantage is a separate argument considering he does stack his teams, but the point of him dominating as a player is still clear.
you can't ignore ratios just because it proves or disproves a narrative. small sample size or not, private schools are still responsible for 20% of the state titles since 2000 while making up less than 5% of the teams. And 3 out of 8 private schools after this season could be in the Top 10 for most titles all-time. The dominance is obvious, which incites the argument of advantages
This!
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 01:21:04 pm
That made no sense....Lebron is on a team with other players who themselves represent 0.2% of NBA players. So if LeBron goes to the finals, they go too, even if they ride the bench. Same with Celtics benchriders in the 60s. A better example would be individual awards. there are over 4374 NBA players all time. Only 0.2% have won NBA MVP and Finals MVP. Lebron is in that category with Magic, Kareem, Bird, Jordan and a few others. So if you took Statistics class, that should tell you to be in that top 0.2% means you likely are a first ballot HOFer, in which all of them are/will be.
So if anything trying to use Lebron as an example just strengthens my argument. The argument of having an unfair advantage is a separate argument considering he does stack his teams, but the point of him dominating as a player is still clear.
you can't ignore ratios just because it proves or disproves a narrative. small sample size or not, private schools are still responsible for 20% of the state titles since 2000 while making up less than 5% of the teams. And 3 out of 8 private schools after this season could be in the Top 10 for most titles all-time. The dominance is obvious, which incites the argument of advantages
Citing your stats, privates won 20 percent of titles since 2000. They lost 80 percent. You claim losing four of five tries is dominance?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 01:24:32 pm
Citing your stats, privates won 20 percent of titles since 2000. They lost 80 percent. You claim losing four of five tries is dominance?
Read his posts before you respond to them. He addresses that point. Nice try, yet again, at deflection. If this argument had a mercy rule, the clock would be running. Darn facts!
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 01:26:44 pm
Read his posts before you respond to them. He addresses that point. Nice try, yet again, at deflection. If this argument had a mercy rule, the clock would be running.
I read it. His claim, to paraphrase: "Privates win 20% of state titles. That's dominance."
Sweet Feet's "Law of 20% Dominance" means Tampa Bay is a overwhelmingly dominant franchise since winning 40% of their games since entering the NFL in 1976. Doesn't matter that's the worst record in league history. Bucs are doubly dominant vs. private schools.
Good grief!
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 11:02:20 am
No such thing as a "law of ratios." Did you just discover one?
All those numbers and examples posted and you are worried about a saying? Lol
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 16, 2020, 10:57:07 pm
You aren't factoring the law of ratios in these semifinal/title numbers. The 4 divisions you mentioned only has 7 private schools. Thats roughly 3% of all teams. For them to essentially finish in the top 4 15% of the time shows they are mathematically way more successful than public schools. If they made up 15% of the total schools, then that wouldn't be as impressive.
The SEC accounts for 11% of College Football yet are responsible for 33% of the national titles since 1980. Are people not going to say the SEC has been the most dominant in this time span? Or are they going to say 33% is "not dominant"? If the SEC made up 33% of College football in that frame, then it wouldn't be as impressive. But they barely make up a 10th of college football.
The ratio of private to public schools since 2000 has been around 1:24. The ratio of private school titles to public school titles after this year could be 22:92 or roughly 1:4. 1:24 is not equal to 1:4 by any means. And this is not factoring in the titles from classes without private schools, otherwise that championship ratio would be closer to 1:3.
Private schools account for 4% of all teams since 2000 and are responsible for roughly 20% of the titles won. That's almost the equivalent of 1 person out of a group of 20 taking 2 slices of Pizza in a 10-slice box.
I know a common counter argument will be "PA accounts for most of them. Take them away". PA accounts for 12.5% of private school football teams. If we wanted an equal ratio comparison for reference, roughly 13% of public schools (26 teams) are responsible for ALL of the public school football state titles since 2000. Pulaski Academy is 12.5% of private schools and are responsible for only 45% of the private school football state titles.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 01:34:09 pm
All those numbers and examples posted and you are worried about a saying? Lol
You said there was a "Law of Ratios." There is not.
Some private schools have won many state titles. Others have never won.
Some public schools have won many state titles. Others have never won.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 01:24:32 pm
Citing your stats, privates won 20 percent of titles since 2000. They lost 80 percent. You claim losing four of five tries is dominance?
No i claim only making up 4% of a group and winning 20% of the titles is dominance. Idk what's so hard about that. The ratio of Public to Private schools is 24 to 1, yet the ratio of public school titles to private school titles since 2000 is 4 to 1. Showing that the success of private schools is not correlated to the total number of private schools to public schools.
In other words, they are way more proficient at winning titles.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 01:41:08 pm
No i claim only making up 4% of a group and winning 20% of the titles is dominance. Idk what's so hard about that. The ratio of Public to Private schools is 24 to 1, yet the ratio of public school titles to private school titles since 2000 is 4 to 1. Showing that the success of private schools is not correlated to the total number of private schools to public schools.
In other words, they are way more proficient at winning titles.
Bingo!
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 01:36:51 pm
You said there was a "Law of Ratios." There is not.
Some private schools have won many state titles. Others have never won.
Some public schools have won many state titles. Others have never won.
And of all those stats and examples posted, you were worried about a saying...lol
And 5 out 8 private schools have won state titles.
And 24 out 192 public schools have won state titles. or simplified, 1 out of 8.
Is 5/8 better than 1/8? Who's more successful?
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 01:41:08 pm
No i claim only making up 4% of a group and winning 20% of the titles is dominance. Idk what's so hard about that. The ratio of Public to Private schools is 24 to 1, yet the ratio of public school titles to private school titles since 2000 is 4 to 1. Showing that the success of private schools is not correlated to the total number of private schools to public schools.
In other words, they are way more proficient at winning titles.
Yes, one private school in Arkansas is much better, than public and other private.
But you changed the truth claim to proficiency. A 20% win rate is not dominance.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 01:44:33 pm
And of all those stats and examples posted, you were worried about a saying...lol
And 5 out 8 private schools have won state titles.
And 24 out 192 public schools have won state titles. or simplified, 1 out of 8.
Is 5/8 better than 1/8? Who's more successful?
Bingo again!
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 01:50:16 pm
Bingo again!
You've again changed the truth claim. You think every school has an equal chance to win a state football title, and should be equally weighted?
There is a private school in Arkansas averaging less than five wins a year, over the last 20 years. Not really a football school. They don't start with an equal chance of winning state, as do, the public and private powerhouses.
Something to ponder.
People believe what they choose to believe. Objectivity and facts go out the window.
Beliefs are also often tied up with identities. If changing your belief means changing your identity, it comes at the risk of rejection from the community of people with whom you share that identity.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on December 17, 2020, 01:56:45 pm
Something to ponder.
People believe what they choose to believe. Objectivity and facts go out the window.
Beliefs are also often tied up with identities. If changing your belief means changing your identity, it comes at the risk of rejection from the community of people with whom you share that identity.
Great point.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 02:00:33 pm
Great point.
Yes it is Heber, you should read it and see if it applies to you.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 02:02:14 pm
Yes it is Heber, you should read it and see if it applies to you.
Seems you read it, but didn't understand, his words point toward us all.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 01:45:27 pm
Yes, two private schools in Arkansas are much better, both public and other private.
But you changed the truth claim to proficiency. A 20% win rate is not dominance.
At this point, you don't want to acknowledge percentage and proportion because it hurts your narrative.
If one person out of a group of 20 people (5% of the group) takes 4 slices of pizza out of 20 available slices (20% of the Pizza), did he get an equal proportion, or did he eat more?
I'll make a political example. Why do people get on to black people for being 13% of the population but responsible for 50% of the nation's homicides? Because the proportion is not equal and makes blacks look way more violent. You never hear "it's only 50%, that's not bad"
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 02:03:41 pm
Seems you read it, but didn't understand, his words point toward us all.
Yes, I got that. I just figured you said good point without reading it.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 02:04:45 pm
At this point, you don't want to acknowledge percentage and proportion because it hurts your narrative.
If one person out of a group of 20 people (5% of the group) takes 4 slices of pizza out of 20 available slices (20% of the Pizza), did he get an equal proportion, or did he eat more?
I'll make a political example. Why do people get on to black people for being 13% of the population but responsible for 50% of the nation's homicides? Because the proportion is not equal and makes blacks look way more violent. You never hear "it's only 50%, that's not bad"
We are past bingo, we are at Yahtzee! He just tried to change the "truth claim" on you.......and then accuse you of doing it.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 02:04:45 pm
At this point, you don't want to acknowledge percentage and proportion because it hurts your narrative.
If one person out of a group of 20 people (5% of the group) takes 4 slices of pizza out of 20 available slices (20% of the Pizza), did he get an equal proportion, or did he eat more?
I'll make a political example. Why do people get on to black people for being 13% of the population but responsible for 50% of the nation's homicides? Because the proportion is not equal and makes blacks look way more violent. You never hear "it's only 50%, that's not bad"
Your argument stands on the claim that public and private school should win at the same ratio as their proportional representation. If public schools are 95 percent of football teams, they should win 95 percent of titles?
I think 100% of winners should generally be the best team -- bad officiating, weather and odd plays aside.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 02:08:42 pm
We are past bingo, we are at Yahtzee! He just tried to change the "truth claim" on you.......and then accuse you of doing it.
Almost nobody plays "Old Maid" anymore, have you noticed? And who couldn't use a few sessions of "Candy Land" these days?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 01:53:53 pm
You've again changed the truth claim. You think every school has an equal chance to win a state football title, and should be equally weighted?
There is a private school in Arkansas averaging less than five wins a year, over the last 20 years. Not really a football school. They don't start with an equal chance of winning state, as do, the public and private powerhouses.
Correct me if im wrong, but isn't that one of the key premises to this public vs private school argument? That teams can't be equally weighted because one type of school is different than the other?
There's a private school averaging 5 wins a year, but there are also like 30-40 public schools averaging less than that a year
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 02:11:26 pm
Your argument stands on the claim that public and private school should win at the same ratio as their proportional representation. If public schools are 95 percent of football teams, they should win 95 percent of titles?
I think 100% of winners should generally be the best team -- bad officiating, weather and odd plays aside.
Weather, bad officiating, and odds don't make up the domination in the ratios he's laid out for you. As for the percentages, seriously think about what you just put in that post?
Nevermind, I now see that sweet feet posted and kindly pointed it out for you.
When is the last time a Arkansas public school beat PA by more then 14?...🤷🏾♂️
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 02:17:37 pm
Correct me if im wrong, but isn't that one of the key premises to this public vs private school argument? That teams can't be equally weighted because one type of school is different than the other?
There's a private school averaging 5 wins a year, but there are also like 30-40 public schools averaging less than that a year
Every school is different, and changing.
PA wasn't dominant before KK, and, it took him five years to start winning big.
Shiloh has been a power for decades. It's just their thing.
Other schools have risen and fallen. Others are comfortable with mediocrity.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 17, 2020, 02:11:26 pm
Your argument stands on the claim that public and private school should win at the same ratio as their proportional representation. If public schools are 95 percent of football teams, they should win 95 percent of titles?
I think 100% of winners should generally be the best team -- bad officiating, weather and odd plays aside.
Yep thats exactly where im coming from. If people for private schools really want to convince others that private schools are equal to public schools and have equal playing grounds as public schools with no advantages, then the success rate needs to be proportionate to or around the percentage of total private schools. Not just in Arkansas, but across the country. Because this is a nationwide controversy.
When most of your non-Texas national champs in 20 years are private schools, that should tell you something.
When a school less than 900 students are smacking Top Notch powerhouses with 2000+ students, that should tell you something.
When high powered public powerhouses in Texas with over 3000 students are struggling/losing to teams with less than 1000 students, that should tell you something.
When Texas of all states has a split between public and private schools, that should tell you something.
When other states have taken measures to even out the competition between public and private schools, that should tell you something.
When you have to move a private school up a class that isn't relative to their enrollment, that should tell you something.
When there's only 8 private schools and 3 of them are in the Top 10 for most state titles all time (while 2 weren't even schools until the 70s), that should tell you something.
It's more than just great coaching as to why private schools are so proficient. If it were just coaching and players and that's it, states wouldn't be taking measures to even the playing field. Whether it be moving them up a class, or separating them completely. Barton, Junction City, and Greenwood never moved up a class because of how dominant they were. Greenwood only moved up from 5A to 6A because enrollment increased.
This fool will never understand what you are talking about! Heber is an Idiot.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 02:47:20 pm
Yep thats exactly where im coming from. If people for private schools really want to convince others that private schools are equal to public schools and have equal playing grounds as public schools with no advantages, then the success rate needs to be proportionate to or around the percentage of total private schools. Not just in Arkansas, but across the country. Because this is a nationwide controversy.
When most of your non-Texas national champs in 20 years are private schools, that should tell you something.
When a school less than 900 students are smacking Top Notch powerhouses with 2000+ students, that should tell you something.
When high powered public powerhouses in Texas with over 3000 students are struggling/losing to teams with less than 1000 students, that should tell you something.
When Texas of all states has a split between public and private schools, that should tell you something.
When other states have taken measures to even out the competition between public and private schools, that should tell you something.
When you have to move a private school up a class that isn't relative to their enrollment, that should tell you something.
When there's only 8 private schools and 3 of them are in the Top 10 for most state titles all time (while 2 weren't even schools until the 70s), that should tell you something.
It's more than just great coaching as to why private schools are so proficient. If it were just coaching and players and that's it, states wouldn't be taking measures to even the playing field. Whether it be moving them up a class, or separating them completely. Barton, Junction City, and Greenwood never moved up a class because of how dominant they were. Greenwood only moved up from 5A to 6A because enrollment increased.
Very good post.
Private schools win 20% of state titles, and still, that's too much?
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 17, 2020, 02:47:20 pm
Yep thats exactly where im coming from. If people for private schools really want to convince others that private schools are equal to public schools and have equal playing grounds as public schools with no advantages, then the success rate needs to be proportionate to or around the percentage of total private schools. Not just in Arkansas, but across the country. Because this is a nationwide controversy.
When most of your non-Texas national champs in 20 years are private schools, that should tell you something.
When a school less than 900 students are smacking Top Notch powerhouses with 2000+ students, that should tell you something.
When high powered public powerhouses in Texas with over 3000 students are struggling/losing to teams with less than 1000 students, that should tell you something.
When Texas of all states has a split between public and private schools, that should tell you something.
When other states have taken measures to even out the competition between public and private schools, that should tell you something.
When you have to move a private school up a class that isn't relative to their enrollment, that should tell you something.
When there's only 8 private schools and 3 of them are in the Top 10 for most state titles all time (while 2 weren't even schools until the 70s), that should tell you something.
It's more than just great coaching as to why private schools are so proficient. If it were just coaching and players and that's it, states wouldn't be taking measures to even the playing field. Whether it be moving them up a class, or separating them completely. Barton, Junction City, and Greenwood never moved up a class because of how dominant they were. Greenwood only moved up from 5A to 6A because enrollment increased.
Especially the part about private schools with less than 900 students dominating public schools with over 2,000.
Quote from: MT Legend on December 17, 2020, 02:20:44 pm
When is the last time a Arkansas public school beat PA by more then 14?...🤷🏾♂️
Batesville 2012.
This is a "He went to Cranbrook, that's a private school" board
Quote from: MT Legend on December 17, 2020, 06:43:02 pm
😂😂😂😂 That's hilarious!...🤷🏾♂️
true and impressive actually.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 17, 2020, 07:19:43 pm
true and impressive actually.
Not really, these kinds of runs have been made by private schools across the country. Always private schools for some reason.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 07:30:35 pm
Not really, these kinds of runs have been made by private schools across the country. Always private schools for some reason.
Then beat them? its not impossible.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 17, 2020, 07:32:52 pm
Then beat them? its not impossible.
For some reason another private school is the only team that can........
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 07:36:58 pm
For some reason another private school is the only team that can........
Theres history that proves other wise, I bet they're apologetic for being disciplined players. Public schools make big runs too. However those kids parents pay for them to go to school, they get the premium product, public school kids gotta work harder since they going for free. Or better yet, maybe 5A is just really weak right now.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 17, 2020, 07:42:10 pm
Theres history that proves other wise, I bet they're apologetic for being disciplined players. Public schools make big runs too. However those kids parents pay for them to go to school, they get the premium product, public school kids gotta work harder since they going for free.
Or, the public schools should play in a league with other public schools and the privates should play each other, like is going on in Texas for example.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 07:44:52 pm
Or, the public schools should play in a league with other public schools and the privates should play each other, like is going on in Texas for example.
Then you wouldn't hear the end of PA after winning undefeated 8 game seasons 12 times in a row. Theres only one school in particular that seems to tick people off so why thwart the style of season these kids know just because a team is really good. LRCA is beatable, Magnolia proved that.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 17, 2020, 07:53:38 pm
Then you wouldn't hear the end of PA after winning undefeated 8 game seasons 12 times in a row. Theres only one school in particular that seems to tick people off so why thwart the style of season these kids know just because a team is really good. LRCA is beatable, Magnolia proved that.
PA is not the only one ticking people off and it's not just football. I've heard coaches, parents, and athletes from almost every sport. In fact, I've never met someone who defends private schools that doesn't have some sort of ties or connections to them. The example you gave with PA would be no different than what they are doing now. As has been stated before, it's a matter of Schools that have the same operating expectations/rules from the state department playing in the same league. There are guidelines private schools don't have to adhere to as a district that can be exploited for big advantages in sports. For me, this isn't even about PA although it is for a lot of people. When all things are factored in, there is zero excuse for private schools being forced on public schools. If a public wants to schedule a private school for non-conference then so be it. I am probably one of the few, but I would argue this if PA had losing seasons.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 17, 2020, 03:03:43 pm
This fool will never understand what you are talking about! Heber is an Idiot.
Truth, dude has been a clown on this whole message board.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 17, 2020, 08:21:34 pm
PA is not the only one ticking people off and it's not just football. I've heard coaches, parents, and athletes from almost every sport. In fact, I've never met someone who defends private schools that doesn't have some sort of ties or connections to them. The example you gave with PA would be no different than what they are doing now. As has been stated before, it's a matter of Schools that have the same operating expectations/rules from the state department playing in the same league. There are guidelines private schools don't have to adhere to as a district that can be exploited for big advantages in sports. For me, this isn't even about PA although it is for a lot of people. When all things are factored in, there is zero excuse for private schools being forced on public schools. If a public wants to schedule a private school for non-conference then so be it. I am probably one of the few, but I would argue this if PA had losing seasons.
Well I might be on the wrong board in fact (from 6a no private schools) just never really had a problem with them, I feel its just all in good competition, I can see your side no doubt but I mean we aren't Texas who has double maybe even triple the private institutions, It just wouldn't be fair to me, oh well.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 17, 2020, 09:12:31 pm
Well I might be on the wrong board in fact (from 6a no private schools) just never really had a problem with them, I feel its just all in good competition, I can see your side no doubt but I mean we aren't Texas who has double maybe even triple the private institutions, It just wouldn't be fair to me, oh well.
And you think it is fair now? Hilarious!
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 17, 2020, 09:16:28 pm
And you think it is fair now? Hilarious!
Well it seems there isn't going to be a fair solution so, cry about it?
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 17, 2020, 09:18:10 pm
Well it seems there isn't going to be a fair solution so, cry about it?
Im a grown man i can complain all I want this is a message board ! Go back in your room.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 17, 2020, 09:22:03 pm
Im a grown man i can complain all I want this is a message board ! Go back in your room.
okay :'(
Just line up and beat them.
PA is the smallest 5a school by miles.
Try something different. Harrison did and they about pulled it off.
Took a miracle to come back on McClellan a few years back in the title game.
Took a massive comeback to beat Wynne a few years back.
In the interim, stop crying. Good Lord. Man up and beat them.
Some say you have to beat the best to be the best. Others say kick them out so we can win, and then attack anyone who disagrees.
It's sad. Borders on pathetic.
Bye.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2020, 11:37:45 pm
Just line up and beat them.
PA is the smallest 5a school by miles.
Try something different. Harrison did and they about pulled it off.
Took a miracle to come back on McClellan a few years back in the title game.
Took a massive comeback to beat Wynne a few years back.
In the interim, stop crying. Good Lord. Man up and beat them.
Some say you have to beat the best to be the best. Others say kick them out so we can win, and then attack anyone who disagrees.
It's sad. Borders on pathetic.
Bye.
What borders on pathetic is your argument. I'll take the people in Texas's stance on this over yours. You'll never convince me that football state is pathetic.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 17, 2020, 09:22:03 pm
Im a grown man i can complain all I want this is a message board ! Go back in your room.
I would entertain a debate on both "grown" and "man."
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 01:24:45 am
What borders on pathetic is your argument. I'll take the people in Texas's stance on this over yours. You'll never convince me that football state is pathetic.
"You'll never convince me...."
That's why you can't debate, ZB. You look for division, not agreement.
Poster meant the "we can't compete with privates" attitude is pathetic.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 09:19:12 am
"You'll never convince me...."
That's why you can't debate, ZB. You look for division, not agreement.
Poster meant the "we can't compete with privates" attitude is pathetic.
Correct. On all counts.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 18, 2020, 09:26:45 am
Correct. On all counts.
Yes, true for both of you guys. There's no denying that for your stance to be accurate, Texas football would have to be pathetic for separating private schools from public schools. Can you guys go ahead and call them pathetic to? Or are you going to pick a d chose for your narrative? As always, argue with insults and fortune cookie sayings about "you will never convince them". Maybe try refuting with facts some of sweet feet's claims in the past few days on this thread instead of cracking open a fortune cookie.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 09:19:12 am
"You'll never convince me...."
That's why you can't debate, ZB. You look for division, not agreement.
Poster meant the "we can't compete with privates" attitude is pathetic.
Your pathetic!
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 10:06:40 am
Yes, true for both of you guys. There's no denying that for your stance to be accurate, Texas football would have to be pathetic for separating private schools from public schools. Can you guys go ahead and call them pathetic to? Or are you going to pick a d chose for your narrative? As always, argue with insults and fortune cookie sayings about "you will never convince them". Maybe try refuting with facts some of sweet feet's claims in the past few days on this thread instead of cracking open a fortune cookie.
You vowed to "never" be convinced. The smartest people often change their views.
As you know (I'm being generous) Albert Einstein and Neils Bohr had an intellectual war over the entanglement element of quantum physics. That debate started 100 years ago and we're still not sure who's right. There's no "right or wrong" in football leagues. Just opinions on exercising freedom of association. I stand more on the "free" side.
Quote from: Yellowcake on December 17, 2020, 11:37:45 pm
Just line up and beat them.
PA is the smallest 5a school by miles.
Try something different. Harrison did and they about pulled it off.
Took a miracle to come back on McClellan a few years back in the title game.
Took a massive comeback to beat Wynne a few years back.
In the interim, stop crying. Good Lord. Man up and beat them.
Some say you have to beat the best to be the best. Others say kick them out so we can win, and then attack anyone who disagrees.
It's sad. Borders on pathetic.
Bye.
Let me get an allstar team here in Texarkana guarantee you we beat PA! I can load up a team picking and choosing without no boundaries here in Texarkana! No difference in what the private schools are doing in LR. You can shove that crying up your no what!
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 10:34:08 am
Let me get an allstar team here in Texarkana guarantee you we beat PA! I can load up a team picking and choosing without no boundaries here in Texarkana! No difference in what the private schools are doing in LR. You can shove that crying up your no what!
On first reading, there are eight grammatical "boo boos" in this response. I'm starting to believe public schools really are at a disadvantage.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 10:31:16 am
Perhaps you mean: "You're pathetic."
Have you slobbered all over your Kevin Kelley poster this morning?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 10:36:51 am
On first reading, there are eight grammatical "boo boos" in this response. I'm starting to believe public schools really are at a disadvantage.
Good i meant to have ten boo boos!
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 10:37:15 am
Have you slobbered all over your Kevin Kelley poster this morning?
I've told you before, it's encased in a vaccum-sealed, glass case for safety. I did dust the spotlights that make it glimmer, however. Working on some theme music....
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 10:38:14 am
Good i meant to have ten boo boos!
See what hard work does for a guy? Congrats.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 10:30:30 am
You vowed to "never" be convinced. The smartest people often change their views.
As you know (I'm being generous) Albert Einstein and Neils Bohr had an intellectual war over the entanglement element of quantum physics. That debate started 100 years ago and we're still not sure who's right. There's no "right or wrong" in football leagues. Just opinions on exercising freedom of association. I stand more on the "free" side.
So if I witness an event, and then you tell me that event didn't happen, I'm not intelligent because I won't change my view? And then, you talk about Einstein and Bohr. Yet another example of your false arrogance.
You say you are on the "free" side. That's a comical statement. You are for people buying advantages but still being classified as someone who can't. You are not wanting your gravy train to end it sounds like to me.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 10:41:43 am
I briefly hoped you were talking about quantum physics. As you know (I'm being wildly generous) one of its main concepts is the "observer effect." Just seeing something changes it. Sound crazy? Go find the "double slit experiment" on Youtube.
"Freedom of association" means hanging with whom you want. Name me a school forced to play football?
So if I witness an event, and then you tell me that event didn't happen, I'm not intelligent because I won't change my view? And then, you talk about Einstein and Bohr. Yet another example of your false arrogance.
You say you are on the "free" side. That's a comical statement. You are for people buying advantages but still being classified as someone who can't. You are not wanting your gravy train to end it sounds like to me.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 16, 2020, 08:28:06 pm
Most state titles since the 70s:
Greenwood - 10
Pulaski Academy- 9
Barton - 8
Shiloh Christian- 7 for now
Harding Academy- 7 for now
LR Central - 7
Junction City -7
FS Southside- 7
Rison 7
Pine Bluff- 6
McGehee- 6
Perspectives:
- Pulaski Academy and Shiloh Christian weren't schools until 1971
- Greenwood won 4 of it's state titles in a class without private schools.
- Pulaski Academy moved down to 4A for 2 years (2010 and 2011) and went to state those two years. They won in 2011 and lost in 2010 to Shiloh Christian (another private school)
- Junction City moved up to 3A for 2 years after dominating 2A (2016-2017). They got put out the 2nd round in 2016 and got blasted in the state title in 2017. They have a higher enrollment than Harding Academy who has 3 3A state titles with 2A enrollment numbers.
-In this span, there has never been more than 10 private schools in any year. In otherwords, less than 5% of all football teams have always been private schools.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 10:49:24 am
You just summed up your stance on this very well lol.
The response is there, read at top. Life doesn't always spoon feed us.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 10:50:24 am
Looking at your FF stats, are all seven of your +1's from Hogman?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 10:06:40 am
Yes, true for both of you guys. There's no denying that for your stance to be accurate, Texas football would have to be pathetic for separating private schools from public schools. Can you guys go ahead and call them pathetic to? Or are you going to pick a d chose for your narrative? As always, argue with insults and fortune cookie sayings about "you will never convince them". Maybe try refuting with facts some of sweet feet's claims in the past few days on this thread instead of cracking open a fortune cookie.
Full disclosure, I am a fan of PA. I enjoy watching them play and have all the respect in the world for what they have accomplished. I have met many PA backers and find them to be the total opposite of entitled rich snobs. They are warm welcoming people. Having said that I feel they should be forced to play in the highest classification in the state (7A). Heck, their own head coach said in the documentary "if we play PA ball we can beat any team in the country" really? Funny there is no desire to put your money where your mouth is. Bryant and NLR are exceptional teams, no question, but they ain't IMG, Mater Dei or De La Salle. If you feel playing PA ball would beat hose three then the Arkansas 7A would be a cake walk.
ZB is focusing on Texas. Granted, when it comes to fan support and excitement Texas high school football is king. When it comes to talent and nationally ranked teams California is king. California separates public from private schools as well. This debate has gone on for years on this site, it's been done to death. I myself have voiced numerous opinions on the subject. Ironically it was a phone call with an old college buddy last week that gave me my "A ha" moment. He still lives in California and had the best response EVER to the debate. It was the epitome of a BOOM moment. His comeback to private school backers who oppose separation was...
"if our schools are beneath your standards then our teams should be as well. If you don't want any part of our hallways then you shouldn't want any part of our fields and gyms. Don't be a hypocrite, our teams are made up of the same kids and educators you pay thousands of dollars to avoid, so avoid them. Some parents will go into debt to keep their kids away from ours, so keep them away. You don't want to walk our halls? Then don't lower your standards to play our teams. We'll be just fine and you won't get our stink on your kids"
If you think about it it makes sense. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 10:51:35 am
The response is there, read at top. Life doesn't always spoon feed us.
Correct, never should there be spoon feeding. You are finally agreeing with me. I think public schools should get to COMPETE against other public schools. Many will lose their last game of the season, only 1 in each class will win the title. And private schools should COMPETE against other private schools. If you want me to change my mind, make private schools use the exact same standards as public school districts in every single area (from salary, to public reporting of info, to minutes required in classes, the list goes on and on). You say things like spoon feed, you clearly never have competed so you think that word doesn't mean much. Hence, you view my take as spoon feeding. You keep beating your chest as an intellectual, you clearly weren't an athlete who competed.
Quote from: JessieP on December 18, 2020, 10:58:09 am
Full disclosure, I am a fan of PA. I enjoy watching them play and have all the respect in the world for what they have accomplished. I have met many PA backers and find them to be the total opposite of entitled rich snobs. They are warm welcoming people. Having said that I feel hey should be forced to play in the highest classification in the state (7A). Heck, their own head coach said in the documentary "if we play PA ball we can beat any team in the country" really? Funny there is no desire to put your money where your mouth is. Bryant and NLR are exceptional teams, no question, but they ain't IMG, Mater Dei or De La Salle. If you feel playing PA ball would beat hose three then the Arkansas 7A would be a cake walk.
ZB is focusing on Texas. Granted, when it comes to fan support and excitement Texas high school football is king. When it comes to talent and nationally ranked teams California is king. California separates public from private schools as well. This seagate has gone on for years on this site, it's been done to death. I myself have voiced numerous opinions on the subject. Ironically it was a phone call with an old college buddy last week that gave me my "A ha" moment. He still lives in California and had the best response EVER to the debate. It was the epitome of a BOOM moment. His comeback to private school backers who oppose separation was...
"if our schools are beneath your standards then our teams should be as well. If you don't want any part of our hallways then you shouldn't want any part of our fields and gyms. Don't be a hypocrite, our teams are made up of the same kids and educators you pay thousands of dollars to avoid, so avoid them. Some parents will go into debt to keep their kids away from ours, so keep them away. You don't want to walk our halls? Then don't lower your standards to play our teams. We'll be just fine and you won't get our stink on your kids"
If you think about it it makes sense. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
That last paragraph is my exact point, although I don't word it as well as that. I agree with you, that is the best comment I've seen on this topic.
Quote from: JessieP on December 18, 2020, 10:58:09 am
Full disclosure, I am a fan of PA. I enjoy watching them play and have all the respect in the world for what they have accomplished. I have met many PA backers and find them to be the total opposite of entitled rich snobs. They are warm welcoming people. Having said that I feel hey should be forced to play in the highest classification in the state (7A). Heck, their own head coach said in the documentary "if we play PA ball we can beat any team in the country" really? Funny there is no desire to put your money where your mouth is. Bryant and NLR are exceptional teams, no question, but they ain't IMG, Mater Dei or De La Salle. If you feel playing PA ball would beat hose three then the Arkansas 7A would be a cake walk.
ZB is focusing on Texas. Granted, when it comes to fan support and excitement Texas high school football is king. When it comes to talent and nationally ranked teams California is king. California separates public from private schools as well. This debate has gone on for years on this site, it's been done to death. I myself have voiced numerous opinions on the subject. Ironically it was a phone call with an old college buddy last week that gave me my "A ha" moment. He still lives in California and had the best response EVER to the debate. It was the epitome of a BOOM moment. His comeback to private school backers who oppose separation was...
"if our schools are beneath your standards then our teams should be as well. If you don't want any part of our hallways then you shouldn't want any part of our fields and gyms. Don't be a hypocrite, our teams are made up of the same kids and educators you pay thousands of dollars to avoid, so avoid them. Some parents will go into debt to keep their kids away from ours, so keep them away. You don't want to walk our halls? Then don't lower your standards to play our teams. We'll be just fine and you won't get our stink on your kids"
If you think about it it makes sense. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
"Some parents will go into debt to keep their kids away from ours."
That isn't enlightened thinking. It's jealousy and contempt. It is projecting ill on others just because they choose another path. It's simply base, hurt feelings from a projected slight. Much of this discussion rises from public school folks believing private school folks see themselves as superior. Some do, many don't.
It's the classic "us against them" divide.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 11:05:06 am
"Some parents will go into debt to keep their kids away from ours."
That isn't enlightened thinking. It's jealousy and contempt. It is projecting ill on others just because they choose another path. It's simply base, hurt feelings from a projected slight.
No, your right. It's jealousy not logic. They pay thousands of dollars and go into debt even though it's the same at either place. There's no advantage to going to the private school, they probably just pay all that money to help that poor private school financially. Yes, clearly that's it.
Your right, some people will refuse to admit they are wrong. Look in the mirror to find one.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 11:08:48 am
No, your right. It's jealousy not logic. They pay thousands of dollars and go into debt even though it's the same at either place. There's no advantage to going to the private school, they probably just pay all that money to help that poor private school financially. Yes, clearly that's it.
Your right, some people will refuse to admit they are wrong. Look in the mirror to find one.
I don't have many mirrors... takes wall space from my private school posters.
There are advantages to private schools. I've agreed many times. There are also advantages to public schools. To boil it down, both public and private schools win state football championships. That won't count much toward the rest of a student's life.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 11:12:15 am
I don't have many mirrors... takes wall space from my private school posters.
There are advantages to private schools. I've agreed many times. There are also advantages to public schools. To boil it down, both public and private schools win state football championships. That won't count much toward the rest of a student's life.
Im sure the public school advantages balance out the private school advantages. Again, that's why those parents pay all that money to the private schools......wow they are as generous as Heber for paying that money for no reason. Oh, and more great logic from Mr Bohr/Einstein....it won't count much toward a students life. Why even have classifications then?
Find a mirror quickly. Borrow one if necessary.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 11:16:09 am
Im sure the public school advantages balance out the private school advantages. Again, that's why those parents pay all that money to the private schools......wow they are as generous as Heber for paying that money for no reason. Oh, and more great logic from Mr Bohr/Einstein....it won't count much toward a students life. Why even have classifications then?
Find a mirror quickly. Borrow one if necessary.
The Einstien-Bohr debate is foundational. What is existence? It matters, even though we still don't have an answer.
Neither myself nor my offspring attended private high school. Public school guy all the way. Heber plays Harding Academy every year. Wildcats usually win, because, they're usually better. Cleburne County kids don't cry about it.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 11:22:52 am
The Einstien-Bohr debate is foundational. What is existence? It matters, even though we still don't have an answer.
Neither myself nor my offspring attended private high school. Public school guy all the way. Heber plays Harding Academy every year. Wildcats usually win, because, they're usually better. Cleburne County kids don't cry about it.
Actually they do, I know a family in Heber that does. They think it's ridiculous private schools are in with public schools. Their son is a starter for the football team.
Seriously, if you tell them you are Mr Bohr/Einstein, Walmart will probably give you a free mirror. I would give you one just to get you out of the store, they might actually be impressed if you don't talk to much and give it away.
If you don't like using your superior intelligence as a way to get free stuff, just tell them about what you do for PA. That surely will do it.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 10:06:40 am
Yes, true for both of you guys. There's no denying that for your stance to be accurate, Texas football would have to be pathetic for separating private schools from public schools. Can you guys go ahead and call them pathetic to? Or are you going to pick a d chose for your narrative? As always, argue with insults and fortune cookie sayings about "you will never convince them". Maybe try refuting with facts some of sweet feet's claims in the past few days on this thread instead of cracking open a fortune cookie.
You can't compare us to Texas football when we have 8 private schools and one is unbeaten, whereas Texas has 427 private schools.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 18, 2020, 11:45:18 am
You can't compare us to Texas football when we have 8 private schools and one is unbeaten, whereas Texas has 427 private schools.
Can you guys get together and decide how many private schools we have and get back to us. You all have a different number. Would love an accurate answer.
Also, no comparison to Texas. Just using them as an example of other states separating private and public. There are other states and the number is growing each year for some reason lol.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 11:37:28 am
Actually they do, I know a family in Heber that does. They think it's ridiculous private schools are in with public schools. Their son is a starter for the football team.
Seriously, if you tell them you are Mr Bohr/Einstein, Walmart will probably give you a free mirror. I would give you one just to get you out of the store, they might actually be impressed if you don't talk to much and give it away.
If you don't like using your superior intelligence as a way to get free stuff, just tell them about what you do for PA. That surely will do it.
Heber was not good this year. Barely won against a Dover team that gave up mid-way through the season. It happens, and, the future is bright for Cleburne County.
You seem to covet mirrors. Mildly disturbing.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 11:46:40 am
Can you guys get together and decide how many private schools we have and get back to us. You all have a different number. Would love an accurate answer.
Also, no comparison to Texas. Just using them as an example of other states separating private and public. There are other states and the number is growing each year for some reason lol.
correction there is like 8 or so private schools in Arkansas that provide football K-12, while there is 238 in Texas still a wild comparison. We just don't have that many private schools that would provide any sort of interesting season, you can see the superbowl of LRCA and PA tho every year.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 10:53:34 am
Looking at your FF stats, are all seven of your +1's from Hogman?
+1 +1 +1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1
Quote from: JessieP on December 18, 2020, 10:58:09 am
Full disclosure, I am a fan of PA. I enjoy watching them play and have all the respect in the world for what they have accomplished. I have met many PA backers and find them to be the total opposite of entitled rich snobs. They are warm welcoming people. Having said that I feel they should be forced to play in the highest classification in the state (7A). Heck, their own head coach said in the documentary "if we play PA ball we can beat any team in the country" really? Funny there is no desire to put your money where your mouth is. Bryant and NLR are exceptional teams, no question, but they ain't IMG, Mater Dei or De La Salle. If you feel playing PA ball would beat hose three then the Arkansas 7A would be a cake walk.
ZB is focusing on Texas. Granted, when it comes to fan support and excitement Texas high school football is king. When it comes to talent and nationally ranked teams California is king. California separates public from private schools as well. This debate has gone on for years on this site, it's been done to death. I myself have voiced numerous opinions on the subject. Ironically it was a phone call with an old college buddy last week that gave me my "A ha" moment. He still lives in California and had the best response EVER to the debate. It was the epitome of a BOOM moment. His comeback to private school backers who oppose separation was...
"if our schools are beneath your standards then our teams should be as well. If you don't want any part of our hallways then you shouldn't want any part of our fields and gyms. Don't be a hypocrite, our teams are made up of the same kids and educators you pay thousands of dollars to avoid, so avoid them. Some parents will go into debt to keep their kids away from ours, so keep them away. You don't want to walk our halls? Then don't lower your standards to play our teams. We'll be just fine and you won't get our stink on your kids"
If you think about it it makes sense. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
Great post.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 18, 2020, 12:05:10 pm
correction there is like 8 or so private schools in Arkansas that provide football K-12, while there is 238 in Texas still a wild comparison. We just don't have that many private schools that would provide any sort of interesting season, you can see the superbowl of LRCA and PA tho every year.
That's the 5A classification your referencing.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 10:53:34 am
Looking at your FF stats, are all seven of your +1's from Hogman?
Funny you say that. You call people who speak in favor of a private/public split as "babies, soft, whiners, etc". Here's an interesting observation I've made that may suggest the opposite. I was on this board for one year. I posted on all kinds of topics. I stayed away from this thread. I accumulated 5 slaps in one year. Then, a little over a week ago, I asked on a different thread for some information regarding what other states do with private vs public. I got slapped 9 times for asking that......1 post! You private school folks are defensive now! Whiners!
Quote from: JessieP on December 18, 2020, 10:58:09 am
Full disclosure, I am a fan of PA. I enjoy watching them play and have all the respect in the world for what they have accomplished. I have met many PA backers and find them to be the total opposite of entitled rich snobs. They are warm welcoming people. Having said that I feel they should be forced to play in the highest classification in the state (7A). Heck, their own head coach said in the documentary "if we play PA ball we can beat any team in the country" really? Funny there is no desire to put your money where your mouth is. Bryant and NLR are exceptional teams, no question, but they ain't IMG, Mater Dei or De La Salle. If you feel playing PA ball would beat hose three then the Arkansas 7A would be a cake walk.
ZB is focusing on Texas. Granted, when it comes to fan support and excitement Texas high school football is king. When it comes to talent and nationally ranked teams California is king. California separates public from private schools as well. This debate has gone on for years on this site, it's been done to death. I myself have voiced numerous opinions on the subject. Ironically it was a phone call with an old college buddy last week that gave me my "A ha" moment. He still lives in California and had the best response EVER to the debate. It was the epitome of a BOOM moment. His comeback to private school backers who oppose separation was...
"if our schools are beneath your standards then our teams should be as well. If you don't want any part of our hallways then you shouldn't want any part of our fields and gyms. Don't be a hypocrite, our teams are made up of the same kids and educators you pay thousands of dollars to avoid, so avoid them. Some parents will go into debt to keep their kids away from ours, so keep them away. You don't want to walk our halls? Then don't lower your standards to play our teams. We'll be just fine and you won't get our stink on your kids"
If you think about it it makes sense. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
Yes, this was a great post.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 12:14:05 pm
That's the 5A classification your referencing.
No that's Arkansas in its entirety
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 12:20:31 pm
Funny you say that. You call people who speak in favor of a private/public split as "babies, soft, whiners, etc". Here's an interesting observation I've made that may suggest the opposite. I was on this board for one year. I posted on all kinds of topics. I stayed away from this thread. I accumulated 5 slaps in one year. Then, a little over a week ago, I asked on a different thread for some information regarding what other states do with private vs public. I got slapped 9 times for asking that......1 post! You private school folks are defensive now! Whiners!
You dont have to explain nothing to that MORON!!
Quote from: JessieP on December 18, 2020, 10:58:09 am
Full disclosure, I am a fan of PA. I enjoy watching them play and have all the respect in the world for what they have accomplished. I have met many PA backers and find them to be the total opposite of entitled rich snobs. They are warm welcoming people. Having said that I feel they should be forced to play in the highest classification in the state (7A). Heck, their own head coach said in the documentary "if we play PA ball we can beat any team in the country" really? Funny there is no desire to put your money where your mouth is. Bryant and NLR are exceptional teams, no question, but they ain't IMG, Mater Dei or De La Salle. If you feel playing PA ball would beat hose three then the Arkansas 7A would be a cake walk.
ZB is focusing on Texas. Granted, when it comes to fan support and excitement Texas high school football is king. When it comes to talent and nationally ranked teams California is king. California separates public from private schools as well. This debate has gone on for years on this site, it's been done to death. I myself have voiced numerous opinions on the subject. Ironically it was a phone call with an old college buddy last week that gave me my "A ha" moment. He still lives in California and had the best response EVER to the debate. It was the epitome of a BOOM moment. His comeback to private school backers who oppose separation was...
"if our schools are beneath your standards then our teams should be as well. If you don't want any part of our hallways then you shouldn't want any part of our fields and gyms. Don't be a hypocrite, our teams are made up of the same kids and educators you pay thousands of dollars to avoid, so avoid them. Some parents will go into debt to keep their kids away from ours, so keep them away. You don't want to walk our halls? Then don't lower your standards to play our teams. We'll be just fine and you won't get our stink on your kids"
If you think about it it makes sense. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
I could get down with the 6A/7A collage.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 18, 2020, 12:24:34 pm
No that's Arkansas in its entirety
I meant the PA LRC Super Bowl part
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 18, 2020, 12:27:40 pm
I could get down with the 6A/7A collage.
It's better than no action at all.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 12:31:33 pm
I meant the PA LRC Super Bowl part
oh oh oh, I just said that bc SC, JTR, PA, and LRCA are the most relevant of the bunch but SC and JTR can't compete with the 5A contenders. I mean you got Harding Academy but, I mean they couldn't handle them either.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 12:34:31 pm
It's better than no action at all.
The way I see it, I think that would be the only viable action actually, the split wouldn't be fair to backers and it would eliminate the competition for private schools, leaving them would be unfair for split backers. So maybe bumping each private school one or two classifications based on the performance could likely solve this.
Private schools win 20% of state titles. Most in the past 10 years. The main argument against public-private play seems to be:
"Privates think they're better than us, plus they win a lot, so they don't deserve to compete with public schools."
If that's your mental attitude, prepare for a life of defeat and victimhood.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 18, 2020, 12:35:56 pm
oh oh oh, I just said that bc SC, JTR, PA, and LRCA are the most relevant of the bunch but SC and JTR can't compete with the 5A contenders. I mean you got Harding Academy but, I mean they couldn't handle them either.
I should have clarified what I meant on that post. I see what your saying.
A separate thought from that: I think part of the theory behind the private/public split is that teams like PA would drop off because it would no longer be quite as appealing to go there. Thats not my theory, just something I've heard. That's what many have claimed happened in Louisiana to some dominating private school teams. Again, that's just theory.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 16, 2020, 10:57:07 pm
You aren't factoring the law of ratios in these semifinal/title numbers. The 4 divisions you mentioned only has 7 private schools. Thats roughly 3% of all teams. For them to essentially finish in the top 4 15% of the time shows they are mathematically way more successful than public schools. If they made up 15% of the total schools, then that wouldn't be as impressive.
The SEC accounts for 11% of College Football yet are responsible for 33% of the national titles since 1980. Are people not going to say the SEC has been the most dominant in this time span? Or are they going to say 33% is "not dominant"? If the SEC made up 33% of College football in that frame, then it wouldn't be as impressive. But they barely make up a 10th of college football.
The ratio of private to public schools since 2000 has been around 1:24. The ratio of private school titles to public school titles after this year could be 22:92 or roughly 1:4. 1:24 is not equal to 1:4 by any means. And this is not factoring in the titles from classes without private schools, otherwise that championship ratio would be closer to 1:3.
Private schools account for 4% of all teams since 2000 and are responsible for roughly 20% of the titles won. That's almost the equivalent of 1 person out of a group of 20 taking 2 slices of Pizza in a 10-slice box.
I know a common counter argument will be "PA accounts for most of them. Take them away". PA accounts for 12.5% of private school football teams. If we wanted an equal ratio comparison for reference, roughly 13% of public schools (26 teams) are responsible for ALL of the public school football state titles since 2000. Pulaski Academy is 12.5% of private schools and are responsible for only 45% of the private school football state titles.
In response to Hebers most recent idiotic deflection attempt disguised as a post.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 12:45:26 pm
I should have clarified what I meant on that post. I see what your saying.
A separate thought from that: I think part of the theory behind the private/public split is that teams like PA would drop off because it would no longer be quite as appealing to go there. Thats not my theory, just something I've heard. That's what many have claimed happened in Louisiana to some dominating private school teams. Again, that's just theory.
Thats what I was thinking about too, but is there enough interest to pull away from such successful teams like PA and LRCA? I think some private school choices might have to do with religion too, but as painful and awful as it sounds, I don't think parents really care about that.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 12:47:56 pm
In response to Hebers most recent idiotic deflection attempt disguised as a post.
I have trouble reading through anything starting with "the law of ratios."
For those who thankfully missed previous posts, there is no such law.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 18, 2020, 12:50:53 pm
Thats what I was thinking about too, but is there enough interest to pull away from such successful teams like PA and LRCA? I think some private school choices might have to do with religion too, but as painful and awful as it sounds, I don't think parents really care about that.
Yeah, most Arkansas parents don't care about religion, even in a state that identifies about 80% Christian. Wow.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 12:53:28 pm
Yeah, most Arkansas parents don't care about religion, even in a state that identifies about 80% Christian. Wow.
You can identify as whatever you want nowadays, but are you really?
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 18, 2020, 12:57:52 pm
You can identify as whatever you want nowadays, but are you really?
Only the person and God know.
Quote from: footballboy01 on December 18, 2020, 12:50:53 pm
Thats what I was thinking about too, but is there enough interest to pull away from such successful teams like PA and LRCA? I think some private school choices might have to do with religion too, but as painful and awful as it sounds, I don't think parents really care about that.
I'll bet there are some that are religious based decisions to attend. I could be wrong. Enough interest to pull away from PA and LRC I don't know and is a good question.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 12:51:49 pm
I have trouble reading through anything starting with "the law of ratios."
For those who thankfully missed previous posts, there is no such law.
No chance he was mocking you with that part? I'm close to refusing to read anything that begins with HeberFan
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 01:03:51 pm
No chance he was mocking you with that part? I'm close to refusing to read anything that begins with HeberFan
Correct, no chance, he was mocking. Only read my posts if you have an open mind.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 12:53:28 pm
Yeah, most Arkansas parents don't care about religion, even in a state that identifies about 80% Christian. Wow.
Half of LRC people probably dont even know where a church is! They are some of the worst foul mouthed kids i ever heard!!
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 01:05:27 pm
Correct, no chance, he was mocking. Only read my posts if you have an open mind.
I've tried that enough to know I ain't doing it again.
Quote from: JessieP on December 18, 2020, 10:58:09 am
Full disclosure, I am a fan of PA. I enjoy watching them play and have all the respect in the world for what they have accomplished. I have met many PA backers and find them to be the total opposite of entitled rich snobs. They are warm welcoming people. Having said that I feel they should be forced to play in the highest classification in the state (7A). Heck, their own head coach said in the documentary "if we play PA ball we can beat any team in the country" really? Funny there is no desire to put your money where your mouth is. Bryant and NLR are exceptional teams, no question, but they ain't IMG, Mater Dei or De La Salle. If you feel playing PA ball would beat hose three then the Arkansas 7A would be a cake walk.
ZB is focusing on Texas. Granted, when it comes to fan support and excitement Texas high school football is king. When it comes to talent and nationally ranked teams California is king. California separates public from private schools as well. This debate has gone on for years on this site, it's been done to death. I myself have voiced numerous opinions on the subject. Ironically it was a phone call with an old college buddy last week that gave me my "A ha" moment. He still lives in California and had the best response EVER to the debate. It was the epitome of a BOOM moment. His comeback to private school backers who oppose separation was...
"if our schools are beneath your standards then our teams should be as well. If you don't want any part of our hallways then you shouldn't want any part of our fields and gyms. Don't be a hypocrite, our teams are made up of the same kids and educators you pay thousands of dollars to avoid, so avoid them. Some parents will go into debt to keep their kids away from ours, so keep them away. You don't want to walk our halls? Then don't lower your standards to play our teams. We'll be just fine and you won't get our stink on your kids"
If you think about it it makes sense. You shouldn't be able to have it both ways.
This post is spot on. Although many private school backers do not want to admit it, most of all private schools were founded to get away from people they did not want their kids to go to school with. Do the research on the private schools, and you will find out why they were created. They should have never been allowed to play against public schools, but as long as the AAA makes the rules, private schools will always be allowed to do what they want.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 01:08:24 pm
Half of LRC people probably dont even know where a church is! They are some of the worst foul mouthed kids i ever heard!!
You hang out a lot with LRC kids? That's more than a bit unsettling.
Quote from: JacketFan on December 18, 2020, 01:10:26 pm
This post is spot on. Although many private school backers do not want to admit it, most of all private schools were founded to get away from people they did not want their kids to go to school with. Do the research on the private schools, and you will find out why they were created. They should have never been allowed to play against public schools, but as long as the AAA makes the rules, private schools will always be allowed to do what they want.
"They should never have been allowed to play..."
You criticized not wanting kids to go to school with others? Now you're supporting not wanting kids to compete with others. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 01:08:24 pm
Half of LRC people probably dont even know where a church is! They are some of the worst foul mouthed kids i ever heard!!
We should listen to this guy. Pretty levelheaded.
Quote from: panther07 on December 18, 2020, 01:16:12 pm
We should listen to this guy. Pretty levelheaded.
Your sarcasm is unusually dry.
Quote from: JacketFan on December 18, 2020, 01:10:26 pm
This post is spot on. Although many private school backers do not want to admit it, most of all private schools were founded to get away from people they did not want their kids to go to school with. Do the research on the private schools, and you will find out why they were created. They should have never been allowed to play against public schools, but as long as the AAA makes the rules, private schools will always be allowed to do what they want.
Bingo. The private schools split away to be private on their own. But when they realize there aren't enough of them to have their own sports leagues they want to re-unite for that only. It's the analogy of the wife leaving her husband but insisting on still using his house, home gym, pool etc.
And, it's not like there aren't enough private schools for them to at least get to play against each other. It may not be competitively as fair as public vs public, but they are the ones that wanted their own school. No one forced them to do that which is the key point. There are sacrifices in life to breaking away.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 01:08:24 pm
Half of LRC people probably dont even know where a church is! They are some of the worst foul mouthed kids i ever heard!!
Dont know the kids so I won't say anything, but that's the harsh reality sometimes.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 01:11:25 pm
You hang out a lot with LRC kids? That's more than a bit unsettling.
I know from a couple of teams that played them this year and we played a couple years back! I dont know why im explaining it to a moron that's got a man crush on KK. That's more unsettling!
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 01:21:05 pm
Bingo. The private schools split away to be private on their own. But when they realize there aren't enough of them to have their own sports leagues they want to re-unite for that only. It's the analogy of the wife leaving her husband but insisting on still using his house, home gym, pool etc.
And, it's not like there aren't enough private schools for them to at least get to play against each other. It may not be competitively as fair as public vs public, but they are the ones that wanted their own school. There are sacrifices in life to breaking away.
The separation you see is partial, at best.
Publics and privates live in the same towns, drive the same streets, worship in the same churches, shop in the same stores, etc.
Are you also against home-schoolers in AAA events?
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 01:23:22 pm
I know from a couple of teams that played them this year and we played a couple years back! I dont know why im explaining it to a moron that's got a man crush on KK. That's more unsettling!
Hogman is a gem: "I done heard it from Bobby Fred, who was told, by Sally Sue."
Peculiar story.
Was headed south last weekend. About 5 minutes south of Pine Bluff, I look over to my right and I see a yard sign that was one of the LRCA "Home of a Warrior" yard signs. Now I know my eyes didn't deceive me because living in Central Arkansas, I see those yard signs sitting in people's yards all the time. And this was a LRCA yard sign.
Take it for what it's worth. I sensed some "peeble heppin".
Quote from: AirWarren on December 18, 2020, 01:31:01 pm
Peculiar story.
Was headed south last weekend. About 5 minutes south of Pine Bluff, I look over to my right and I see a yard sign that was one of the LRCA "Home of a a Warrior" yard signs. Now I know my eyes didn't deceive me because living in Central Arkansas, I see those yard signs sitting in people's yards all the time. And this was a LRCA yard sign.
Take it for what it's worth. I sensed some "peeble heppin".
It may have been the home of a student. They take small jets and helicopters to school, ya' know. Could have also been a 20-something LRCA graduate who doesn't yet realize his life peaked in high school.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 18, 2020, 01:31:01 pm
Peculiar story.
Was headed south last weekend. About 5 minutes south of Pine Bluff, I look over to my right and I see a yard sign that was one of the LRCA "Home of a a Warrior" yard signs. Now I know my eyes didn't deceive me because living in Central Arkansas, I see those yard signs sitting in people's yards all the time. And this was a LRCA yard sign.
Take it for what it's worth. I sensed some "peeble heppin".
Let me beat HeberFan to it: People shop in malls and go to Church, so it's okay for a kid south of PB to go to LRC
Quote from: AirWarren on December 18, 2020, 01:31:01 pm
Peculiar story.
Was headed south last weekend. About 5 minutes south of Pine Bluff, I look over to my right and I see a yard sign that was one of the LRCA "Home of a a Warrior" yard signs. Now I know my eyes didn't deceive me because living in Central Arkansas, I see those yard signs sitting in people's yards all the time. And this was a LRCA yard sign.
Take it for what it's worth. I sensed some "peeble heppin".
Peeble heppin.....😂
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 01:27:22 pm
Hogman is a gem: "I done heard it from Bobby Fred, who was told, by Sally Sue."
How did you guess they are the ones who told me! Idiot
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 01:35:55 pm
Peeble heppin.....😂
"We gonna uplift this boy and his body and ubility to run a 4.4 forty and shield him the armor of our gated fenced in school on highway 10....IN THE NAME...of peeble heppin!"
Took you a while to respond.
You were glancing through a thesaurus?
(No, that isn't a dinosaur)
Quote from: AirWarren on December 18, 2020, 01:43:55 pm
"We gonna uplift this boy and his body and ubility to run a 4.4 forty and shield him the armor of our gated fenced in school on highway 10....IN THE NAME...of peeble heppin!"
Peeble... pebble who need peeble... are the luckiest peeble... in the world!
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 01:45:16 pm
Peeble... pebble who need peeble... are the luckiest peeble... in the world!
Moron Moron Moron!
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 01:47:33 pm
Moron Moron Moron!
You don't get the obvious reference?
Barbara Streisand went to Erasmus Hall High School, a public school, in New York. She turned out okay.
I imagine a kid from Pine Bluff is a LRCA parent's dream. Can score touchdowns but no way in hades will that family be living near them in their community. Can't have them around Don Roberts, PV, Chenal, Baker, Robinson, and Central kids on the daily....can't imagine how many ears and botox faces perk up when they hear of a Pine bluff kid stepping foot on campus.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 18, 2020, 01:43:55 pm
"We gonna uplift this boy and his body and ubility to run a 4.4 forty and shield him the armor of our gated fenced in school on highway 10....IN THE NAME...of peeble heppin!"
😂😂😂😂
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 01:48:44 pm
You don't get the obvious reference?
Barbara Streisand went to Erasmus Hall High School, a public school, in New York. She turned out okay.
I think he's just calling you a moron. In his defense, you usually have to read things 3 times to comprehend it. 🤷🏼♂️
Quote from: AirWarren on December 18, 2020, 01:48:57 pm
I imagine a kid from Pine Bluff is a LRCA parent's dream. Can score touchdowns but no way in hades will that family be living near them in their community. Can't have them around Don Roberts, PV, Chenal, Baker, Robinson, and Central kids on the daily....can't imagine how many ears and botox faces perk up when they hear of a Pine bluff kid stepping foot on campus.
Pulaski County and Bradley County folks might be surprised what kind of people are behind the stereotypes.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 18, 2020, 01:48:57 pm
I imagine a kid from Pine Bluff is a LRCA parent's dream. Can score touchdowns but no way in hades will that family be living near them in their community. Can't have them around Don Roberts, PV, Chenal, Baker, Robinson, and Central kids on the daily....can't imagine how many ears and botox faces perk up when they hear of a Pine bluff kid stepping foot on campus.
Good one and true!
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 01:52:45 pm
Pulaski County and Bradley County folks might be surprised what kind of people are behind the stereotypes.
Now your going to play victim. Shocker. I'm sure you'll get back to your typical life is tough and isn't fair jargon in a few posts. Unless it's about Private School kids having to play in their own league, then that's not fair and whining is allowed.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 01:58:04 pm
Now your going to play victim. Shocker. I'm sure you'll get back to your typical life is tough and isn't fair jargon in a few posts. Unless it's about Private School kids having to play in their own league, then that's not fair and whining is allowed.
Where was the "victim" in that post? People aren't stereotypes. That's a major, but unfortunate, portion of the private-public debate.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 01:52:45 pm
Pulaski County and Bradley County folks might be surprised what kind of people are behind the stereotypes.
What kind of people is that? The private schools are some of the most racist people their is.Why do you think they leave the public school because they dont want their kids around certain people, that is sad.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 02:00:20 pm
Where was the "victim" in that post? People aren't stereotypes. That's a major, but unfortunate, portion of the private-public debate.
Sure it is, if you ignore and deflect from the real issues within the debate....like you do.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 02:01:55 pm
What kind of people is that? The private schools are some of the most racist people their is.Why do you think they leave the public school because they dont want their kids around certain people, that is sad.
Thanks for validating my truth claim.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 02:02:05 pm
Sure it is, if you ignore and deflect from the real issues within the debate....like you do.
What did I ignore or deflect?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 02:03:07 pm
Thanks for validating my truth claim.
I think he validated both sides. You still need that mirror.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 02:04:15 pm
I think he validated both sides. You still need that mirror.
Let me guess, you take a lot of selfies?
Hoggie said private school people are among the most racist. (I cleaned up his wording) That's just opinion, based on sterotypes and things he heard from his step-uncle Otis.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 02:06:16 pm
Let me guess, you take a lot of selfies?
Hoggie said private school people are among the most racist. (I cleaned up his wording) That's just opinion, based on sterotypes and things he heard from his step-uncle Otis.
So where is all the black kids in private schools?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 01:52:45 pm
Pulaski County and Bradley County folks might be surprised what kind of people are behind the stereotypes.
I work in the medical field and around plenty of private school parents. The pretentiousness is alive and well.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 02:08:42 pm
So where is all the black kids in private schools?
Running the football ?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 01:52:45 pm
Pulaski County and Bradley County folks might be surprised what kind of people are behind the stereotypes.
Omg, I just figured it out. It's so obvious now. Your unwavering blind defense of the Arkansas private schools has nothing to do with fairness, hard work or completive advantage. Your slobbering love is based on the fact that outside of the athletic teams the student body closely resembles, how can I say this diplomatically? Um, Heber Springs? That's it, you get a warm fuzzy watching schools like McClellan, Fair and Blytheville getting stomped by "Private schools". For all your moronic ranting about life isn't fair and deal with it you seem to forget one point that blows your idiocy out of the water. One day those private school kids will have to deal with or interact with the public school kids, bummer. Sorry, you can't pay for or get financial aid for an all "private school" world. I think we all know what private school and public school are code words for.
Your unwavering love for private schools speaks volumes about how you think.
Quote from: JessieP on December 18, 2020, 02:12:27 pm
Omg, I just figured it out. It's so obvious now. Your unwavering blind defense of the Arkansas private schools has nothing to do with fairness, hard work or completive advantage. Your slobbering love is based on the fact that outside of the athletic teams the student body closely resembles, how can I say this diplomatically? Um, Heber Springs? That's it, you get a warm fuzzy watching schools like McClellan, Fair and Blytheville getting stomped by "Private schools". For all your moronic ranting about life isn't fair and deal with it you seem to forget one point that blows your idiocy out of the water. One day those private school kids will have to deal with or interact with the public school kids, bummer. Sorry, you can't pay for or get financial aid for an all "private school" world. I think we all know what private school and public school are code words for.
Your unwavering love for private schools speaks volumes about how you think.
Warren and Stuttgart are among my favorite high school teams. I liked Pine Bluff Dollarway a few years ago, when they had lots of D-1 talent. I love LR Mills because those kids try hard and love to compete, despite not winning many games.
Nice try, but, wrong path.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 02:14:45 pm
Warren and Stuttgart are among my favorite high school teams. I liked Pine Bluff Dollarway a few years ago, when they had lots of D-1 talent. I love LR Mills because those kids try hard and love to compete, despite not winning many games.
Nice try, but, wrong path.
Yea, you can give that up. No one is buying it.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 02:20:11 pm
Yea, you can give that up. No one is buying it.
I'm not selling. Air Warren is a veteran of this board and has been on this thread. I invite him to share what teams he's seen me support.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 02:19:06 pm
I don't follow your reasoning.
You dont want to follow my reasoning thats what racist people do.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 18, 2020, 02:36:06 pm
I don't think I have ever seen you put on here anything remotely to the extent of "racist".
Of course, anyone and everyone can cry racism these days.
Thank you. I still remember the playoff game when Heber came to Warren. Panthers completed a lot of passes, although, to guys in orange jerseys!
I'm going to give one more shot at my key arguments that's been danced around.
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- Private Schools aren't being placed in higher classifications just because they are good. Otherwise Greenwood, Barton, and Junction City would've moved up a long time ago. Greenwood recently moved to 6A because of enrollment.
- 5 of the current 8 football playing private schools have won state titles in the past 20 years. 4 of them make up 2% of the AAA football teams but account for 20% of the state titles in classes with private school teams.
- Representing 4% of a group and being responsible for 20% of anything in the group shows you are way more proficient. Percentage and proportion tells the story. Why does America get on to blacks for making up 13% of the population but 50% of the crimes? Because the proportion is vastly different and makes blacks look more likely to be criminals.
- There isn't one public school in 4A with enrollment numbers like PA or LRCA that could possibly beat majority of 6A and 7A teams. In any year.
- Private schools have been dominant in the other sports in the state. Not just football.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
- Nearly every state either has or are in talks of splitting Public and Private schools. This is not just a Arkansas issue
- Majority of non-Texas high school football national champions in the past 20 years are Private Schools. There are like 10 different private schools with national titles in this span.
- St. John Bosco and Don Bosco Prep are national powerhouses with nearly 5A enrollment numbers. De La Salle barely has 1000 students. Most public school powerhouses are at schools with over 2000 students.
- Texas is the king of high school football and has public and private schools split because of foreseeing these issues. They are FAR from liberal snowflakes with a victim mentality.
- Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian this week has a chance to join Pulaski Academy in the Top 10 for the most football state titles in Arkansas history. AGAIN, there are only 8 11-man private schools and 3 of them are possibly going to be in the Top 10 for most football state titles in Arkansas history. And they are doing it in a class higher than their enrollment allows.
- If Catholic and Subiaco Academy weren't all-boys schools, i bet they would be much better.
- Public schools have had to forfeit games for playing players that otherwise would've been eligible at private schools because the rules are different for Public and Private Schools.
- The ratio between Public to Private schools is 24:1. The ratio between Public School titles and Private School titles since 2000 is only 4:1
- Private Schools were initially created for the sole purpose of separating from Public Schools. PA was even formed as a segregation academy after desegregation. So to complain about people wanting to split public and private schools is fairly ironic, considering private schools were/are the ones separating themselves from public schools in everything else in the first place.
Wanting to split Public and Private schools isn't because people are tired of them winning. It's because of the evidence of Private schools having it easier due to recruiting advantages and scholarships. From PA, Shiloh, and Harding to being in the Top 10 for State titles, To Private Schools running the national rankings, to other states like Texas acknowledging an obvious advantage and taking proactive measures, to the basic evidence of private schools being moved up a class higher than their enrollment would put them in.
Im all for suit up and beat the other team. But when there's an obvious concern and acknowledgement about competitive advantage across the nation in this topic, that's when you have to sit and think.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 18, 2020, 06:00:34 pm
I'm going to give one more shot at my key arguments that's been danced around.
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- Private Schools aren't being placed in higher classifications just because they are good. Otherwise Greenwood, Barton, and Junction City would've moved up a long time ago. Greenwood recently moved to 6A because of enrollment.
- 5 of the current 8 football playing private schools have won state titles in the past 20 years. 4 of them make up 2% of the AAA football teams but account for 20% of the state titles in classes with private school teams.
- Representing 4% of a group and being responsible for 20% of anything in the group shows you are way more proficient. Percentage and proportion tells the story. Why does America get on to blacks for making up 13% of the population but 50% of the crimes? Because the proportion is vastly different and makes blacks look more likely to be criminals.
- There isn't one public school in 4A with enrollment numbers like PA or LRCA that could possibly beat majority of 6A and 7A teams. In any year.
- Private schools have been dominant in the other sports in the state. Not just football.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
- Nearly every state either has or are in talks of splitting Public and Private schools. This is not just a Arkansas issue
- Majority of non-Texas high school football national champions in the past 20 years are Private Schools. There are like 10 different private schools with national titles in this span.
- St. John Bosco and Don Bosco Prep are national powerhouses with nearly 5A enrollment numbers. De La Salle barely has 1000 students. Most public school powerhouses are at schools with over 2000 students.
- Texas is the king of high school football and has public and private schools split because of foreseeing these issues. They are FAR from liberal snowflakes with a victim mentality.
- Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian this week has a chance to join Pulaski Academy in the Top 10 for the most football state titles in Arkansas history. AGAIN, there are only 8 11-man private schools and 3 of them are possibly going to be in the Top 10 for most football state titles in Arkansas history. And they are doing it in a class higher than their enrollment allows.
- If Catholic and Subiaco Academy weren't all-boys schools, i bet they would be much better.
- Public schools have had to forfeit games for playing players that otherwise would've been eligible at private schools because the rules are different for Public and Private Schools.
- The ratio between Public to Private schools is 24:1. The ratio between Public School titles and Private School titles since 2000 is only 4:1
- Private Schools were initially created for the sole purpose of separating from Public Schools. PA was even formed as a segregation academy after desegregation. So to complain about people wanting to split public and private schools is fairly ironic, considering private schools were/are the ones separating themselves from public schools in everything else in the first place.
Wanting to split Public and Private schools isn't because people are tired of them winning. It's because of the evidence of Private schools having it easier due to recruiting advantages and scholarships. From PA, Shiloh, and Harding to being in the Top 10 for State titles, To Private Schools running the national rankings, to other states like Texas acknowledging an obvious advantage and taking proactive measures, to the basic evidence of private schools being moved up a class higher than their enrollment would put them in.
Im all for suit up and beat the other team. But when there's an obvious concern and acknowledgement about competitive advantage across the nation in this topic, that's when you have to sit and think.
Don't get frustrated sweet feet. You are arguing with people who aren't looking for what's right or wrong. They are defending their way of life. They are to vested in private school athletics to do anything other than fight for their current gravy train. They will pick some part of your argument, take it out of context, twist it, and call you an idiot. Stay strong, this battle is necessary. You the man.
Oh, another fantastic post by the way!
Private schools do have some zone/district issues to deal with. That's where the sit out a year deal comes from. Also, district and zones are meaningless in this day and age of public schools and school choice.
As you were. This is going nowhere and will continue in perpetuity.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 02:18:04 pm
You are the biggest racist on the board! You love some KK and the KKK dont you?
I try to stay out of the name calling contests because it's just not sensible. But what did Heber say that's racist?
Calling folks racist, morons or idiots is not intelligent discussion whether you agree with them or not. Name calling just evidences a lack of a cogent argument.
I think Heber Fan is trolling all of you, very successfuly.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 18, 2020, 10:13:33 pm
I try to stay out of the name calling contests because it's just not sensible. But what did Heber say that's racist?
Calling folks racist, morons or idiots is not intelligent discussion whether you agree with them or not. Name calling just evidences a lack of a cogent argument.
I think Heber Fan is trolling all of you, very successfuly.
You are right PA Dad I respect your opinion!
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 18, 2020, 02:18:04 pm
You are the biggest racist on the board! You love some KK and the KKK dont you?
Get that crap out of here. We don't go that route on this board. This is your only warning on the matter. It will be a deletion of your account the next time I see it.
Have a good conversation, but not towards that.
This is starting to look like the Politics Board from a while back before it was deleted
Quote from: george7244 on December 19, 2020, 09:41:10 am
This is starting to look like the Politics Board from a while back before it was deleted
It will get locked or deleted at some point. If people like sweet feet wouldn't post it would probably stay up/unlocked.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 18, 2020, 06:00:34 pm
I'm going to give one more shot at my key arguments that's been danced around.
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- Private Schools aren't being placed in higher classifications just because they are good. Otherwise Greenwood, Barton, and Junction City would've moved up a long time ago. Greenwood recently moved to 6A because of enrollment.
- 5 of the current 8 football playing private schools have won state titles in the past 20 years. 4 of them make up 2% of the AAA football teams but account for 20% of the state titles in classes with private school teams.
- Representing 4% of a group and being responsible for 20% of anything in the group shows you are way more proficient. Percentage and proportion tells the story. Why does America get on to blacks for making up 13% of the population but 50% of the crimes? Because the proportion is vastly different and makes blacks look more likely to be criminals.
- There isn't one public school in 4A with enrollment numbers like PA or LRCA that could possibly beat majority of 6A and 7A teams. In any year.
- Private schools have been dominant in the other sports in the state. Not just football.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
- Nearly every state either has or are in talks of splitting Public and Private schools. This is not just a Arkansas issue
- Majority of non-Texas high school football national champions in the past 20 years are Private Schools. There are like 10 different private schools with national titles in this span.
- St. John Bosco and Don Bosco Prep are national powerhouses with nearly 5A enrollment numbers. De La Salle barely has 1000 students. Most public school powerhouses are at schools with over 2000 students.
- Texas is the king of high school football and has public and private schools split because of foreseeing these issues. They are FAR from liberal snowflakes with a victim mentality.
- Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian this week has a chance to join Pulaski Academy in the Top 10 for the most football state titles in Arkansas history. AGAIN, there are only 8 11-man private schools and 3 of them are possibly going to be in the Top 10 for most football state titles in Arkansas history. And they are doing it in a class higher than their enrollment allows.
- If Catholic and Subiaco Academy weren't all-boys schools, i bet they would be much better.
- Public schools have had to forfeit games for playing players that otherwise would've been eligible at private schools because the rules are different for Public and Private Schools.
- The ratio between Public to Private schools is 24:1. The ratio between Public School titles and Private School titles since 2000 is only 4:1
- Private Schools were initially created for the sole purpose of separating from Public Schools. PA was even formed as a segregation academy after desegregation. So to complain about people wanting to split public and private schools is fairly ironic, considering private schools were/are the ones separating themselves from public schools in everything else in the first place.
Wanting to split Public and Private schools isn't because people are tired of them winning. It's because of the evidence of Private schools having it easier due to recruiting advantages and scholarships. From PA, Shiloh, and Harding to being in the Top 10 for State titles, To Private Schools running the national rankings, to other states like Texas acknowledging an obvious advantage and taking proactive measures, to the basic evidence of private schools being moved up a class higher than their enrollment would put them in.
Im all for suit up and beat the other team. But when there's an obvious concern and acknowledgement about competitive advantage across the nation in this topic, that's when you have to sit and think.
I see why you bolded those 2 parts, but I still think the entire post is important. Great job again!
Nope. Won't go the route of locking it. I am just simply going to delete or suspend people that can't take a hint.
Tired of the days where a few ruin it for some. That ain't flying.
We have allowed a bit of aggression in some conversations but it's not an open door to racist or other known off limit topics for this board.
NOTE: First one to go you're killing my "free speech" in a reply will be suspended.
Quote from: B.G. on December 19, 2020, 10:51:24 am
Nope. Won't go the route of locking it. I am just simply going to delete or suspend people that can't take a hint.
Tired of the days where a few ruin it for some. That ain't flying.
We have allowed a bit of aggression in some conversations but it's not an open door to racist or other known off limit topics for this board.
NOTE: First one to go you're killing my "free speech" in a reply will be suspended.
Thank you B.G.
Quote from: B.G. on December 19, 2020, 10:51:24 am
Nope. Won't go the route of locking it. I am just simply going to delete or suspend people that can't take a hint.
Tired of the days where a few ruin it for some. That ain't flying.
We have allowed a bit of aggression in some conversations but it's not an open door to racist or other known off limit topics for this board.
NOTE: First one to go you're killing my "free speech" in a reply will be suspended.
I apologize for what I said! I just got trolled! I will do better.
Shiloh Christian Private School 58-20 over Rivercrest in the championship.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 18, 2020, 06:15:15 pm
Don't get frustrated sweet feet. You are arguing with people who aren't looking for what's right or wrong. They are defending their way of life. They are to vested in private school athletics to do anything other than fight for their current gravy train. They will pick some part of your argument, take it out of context, twist it, and call you an idiot. Stay strong, this battle is necessary. You the man.
Oh, another fantastic post by the way!
Oh no it's no frustration lol. Just making my case and backing it with facts and numbers. Im just seeing what the rebuttals will be instead of the typical "Here we go again, line up and play, stop crying, don't punish teams for being too good" responses (which are fairly weak).
The debate is actually interesting. Pulaski Academy beat LR Christian in the 5A finals. Shiloh Christian manhandled Rivercrest today in 4A, and Harding Academy is about to win 3A tonight. For gits and shiggles, Episcopal played Subiaco Academy in the 8-man title game and won after both beat public schools in the semis lol.
I don't care what classification you are, no private school should be allowed in a public school state playoff. Don't chime in because I don't care about your opinion. I'm entitled to my own opinion. Private schools can play public schools during the regular season but come playoff time it should only be public vs public and private vs private.....PERIOD.
Private schools are allowed to recruit where public schools cannot. This crap is getting old. If AAA cannot figure out a way to get this straight, they all need to be replaced with competent individuals that can.
5A and 4A won the championship and 3A will more than likely win the championship. Screw those elite pompous A-Holes who think they are better than everybody else. Send your kids to a public school and see if they get the laying time. Nope it won't happen. Those coaches will laugh your kids out of the school.
Quote from: mossyoakmilitary on December 19, 2020, 07:23:02 pm
I don't care what classification you are, no private school should be allowed in a public school state playoff. Don't chime in because I don't care about your opinion. I'm entitled to my own opinion. Private schools can play public schools during the regular season but come playoff time it should only be public vs public and private vs private.....PERIOD.
Private schools are allowed to recruit where public schools cannot. This crap is getting old. If AAA cannot figure out a way to get this straight, they all need to be replaced with competent individuals that can.
5A and 4A won the championship and 3A will more than likely win the championship. Screw those elite pompous A-Holes who think they are better than everybody else. Send your kids to a public school and see if they get the laying time. Nope it won't happen. Those coaches will laugh your kids out of the school.
You're saying the private school players that are dominating the public school teams each year aren't good enough to play in public school programs? That's the only part of your statement that has me a bit baffled.
Quote from: Sigmund Sauer on December 19, 2020, 07:27:06 pm
You're saying the private school players that are dominating the public school teams each year aren't good enough to play in public school programs? That's the only part of your statement that has me a bit baffled.
Didn't you read what he said??? Don't chime in!!! 😂
Quote from: mossyoakmilitary on December 19, 2020, 07:23:02 pm
I don't care what classification you are, no private school should be allowed in a public school state playoff. Don't chime in because I don't care about your opinion. I'm entitled to my own opinion. Private schools can play public schools during the regular season but come playoff time it should only be public vs public and private vs private.....PERIOD.
Private schools are allowed to recruit where public schools cannot. This crap is getting old. If AAA cannot figure out a way to get this straight, they all need to be replaced with competent individuals that can.
5A and 4A won the championship and 3A will more than likely win the championship. Screw those elite pompous A-Holes who think they are better than everybody else. Send your kids to a public school and see if they get the laying time. Nope it won't happen. Those coaches will laugh your kids out of the school.
Ok....
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 07:29:06 pm
Didn't you read what he said??? Don't chime in!!! 😂
Might be one of the funniest things I have read on here in a while... Doesn't even want a debate back?
Quote from: beach bum on December 19, 2020, 07:30:13 pm
Might be one of the funniest things I have read on here in a while... Doesn't even want a debate back?
Made me laugh too...
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 07:29:06 pm
Didn't you read what he said??? Don't chime in!!! 😂
It's a bit of a run on sentence and depending on how you read it........... well, I chimed!
Then you are not very smart are you. You take the private schools who can bring in numerous players that are good where public schools only have one or two good players. Like I say , I'm entitled to my opinion and I do not care about the opinions of you pompous entitled private school A-Holes. Period.
Quote from: mossyoakmilitary on December 19, 2020, 07:33:47 pm
Then you are not very smart are you. You take the private schools who can bring in numerous players that are good where public schools only have one or two good players. Like I say , I'm entitled to my opinion and I do not care about the opinions of you pompous entitled private school A-Holes. Period.
Oh you definitely care!! I bet you reply again!
If you're from a private school, nobody wants to hear your opinion so shut up. I don't care if I get banned, I'm tired of private schools and your elite attitude.
Nevermind, it's still the same. lol I'm out of this one. Topic is just tired.
Why are so many of you coming out of the woodworks literally terrified on the football field of future Ivy Leaguers?
Quote from: mossyoakmilitary on December 19, 2020, 07:36:11 pm
If you're from a private school, nobody wants to hear your opinion so shut up. I don't care if I get banned, I'm tired of private schools and your elite attitude.
You are the one that sounds pompous and elite. I understand you are especially upset, and you are entitled to your opinion. But you sound like a little brat that needs his bottom paddled.
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 07:38:25 pm
You are the one that sounds pompous and elite. I understand you are especially upset, and you are entitled to your opinion. But you sound like a little brat that needs his bottom paddled.
+1
Quote from: beach bum on December 19, 2020, 07:37:02 pm
Why are so many of you coming out of the woodworks literally terrified on the football field of future Ivy Leaguers?
Shiloh got taken to the wood shed last year, nobody complained. Shiloh doesn't have any transfers or mysterious move ins. The best player in the senior class who's been there his entire life is playing in the 7A. They played solid, fundamental ball... I'll take that over a couple super stars any day .
Quote from: mossyoakmilitary on December 19, 2020, 07:23:02 pm
I don't care what classification you are, no private school should be allowed in a public school state playoff. Don't chime in because I don't care about your opinion. I'm entitled to my own opinion. Private schools can play public schools during the regular season but come playoff time it should only be public vs public and private vs private.....PERIOD.
Private schools are allowed to recruit where public schools cannot. This crap is getting old. If AAA cannot figure out a way to get this straight, they all need to be replaced with competent individuals that can.
5A and 4A won the championship and 3A will more than likely win the championship. Screw those elite pompous A-Holes who think they are better than everybody else. Send your kids to a public school and see if they get the laying time. Nope it won't happen. Those coaches will laugh your kids out of the school.
I don't agree with all of your statement, but I do agree with your belief that private schools shouldn't be in public school playoffs. To add to the parts of your statement I do agree with, the 8 man championship also had 2 private schools in it.
I think we can make these statements with a little less rage though lol.
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 07:42:24 pm
Shiloh got taken to the wood shed last year, nobody complained. Shiloh doesn't have any transfers or mysterious move ins. The best player in the senior class who's been there his entire life is playing in the 7A. They played solid, fundamental ball... I'll take that over a couple super stars any day .
The O-Line was a thing of beauty today... And your H-Back #44 is one of the best I have seen blocking at that position at this level. He is almost like a 6th lineman
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 07:42:24 pm
Shiloh got taken to the wood shed last year, nobody complained. Shiloh doesn't have any transfers or mysterious move ins. The best player in the senior class who's been there his entire life is playing in the 7A. They played solid, fundamental ball... I'll take that over a couple super stars any day .
I complained. Just FYI.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 19, 2020, 07:44:15 pm
I complained. Just FYI.
You don't count 😂... I don't want your opinion. Only Accepting input from Airwarren or Beach Bum at this time.
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 07:46:12 pm
You don't count 😂... I don't want your opinion. Only Accepting input from Airwarren or Beach Bum at this time.
Lol, fair enough.
Quote from: mossyoakmilitary on December 19, 2020, 07:23:02 pm
I don't care what classification you are, no private school should be allowed in a public school state playoff. Don't chime in because I don't care about your opinion. I'm entitled to my own opinion. Private schools can play public schools during the regular season but come playoff time it should only be public vs public and private vs private.....PERIOD.
Private schools are allowed to recruit where public schools cannot. This crap is getting old. If AAA cannot figure out a way to get this straight, they all need to be replaced with competent individuals that can.
5A and 4A won the championship and 3A will more than likely win the championship. Screw those elite pompous A-Holes who think they are better than everybody else. Send your kids to a public school and see if they get the laying time. Nope it won't happen. Those coaches will laugh your kids out of the school.
The ole reverse psychology trick. I don't care about your opinion, but I'm going to post on a public forum so I read and debate your opinion! Lol
Been busy watching a private school throw my team around. I heard someone is looking for a pompous a hole so here I am. What's up?
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 07:42:24 pm
Shiloh got taken to the wood shed last year, nobody complained. Shiloh doesn't have any transfers or mysterious move ins. The best player in the senior class who's been there his entire life is playing in the 7A. They played solid, fundamental ball... I'll take that over a couple super stars any day .
I was about to say didn't a private school lose the 4A Title... when was the last time SC won before this year? I promise I heard/seen if you transfer to a private school you have to sit out a year.
I will say this. The last time Shiloh started chest thumping while being influenced by double dub and his PP. The "vote" happened. I would suggest anyone involved with private schools in AR and especially Shiloh look up his contact info and tell double dub and the Elite Egos to sit down and shut up. The "vote" will pass if it happens again.
I wish the Ozark JV squad was a private school, those guys are world beaters, they would definitely have a seat at the Country Club table. ;D
Quote from: WhyUMad on December 19, 2020, 08:01:24 pm
I was about to say didn't a private school lose the 4A Title... when was the last time SC won before this year? I promise I heard/seen if you transfer to a private school you have to sit out a year.
Robinson is a bad example. Transfer U
I know bigger states separate Public/Private (Tex and Cali being 2 of them that come to mind), but are there even enough private schools(who are able to field a football team) in Ark to separate them?
Quote from: Oldman on December 19, 2020, 08:06:30 pm
Robinson is a bad example. Transfer U
Robinson is a great example of a public school with excellent facilities! You love us Oldman! LOL
Quote from: WhyUMad on December 19, 2020, 08:06:52 pm
I know bigger states separate Public/Private (Tex and Cali being 2 of them that come to mind), but are there even enough private schools(who are able to field a football team) in Ark to separate them?
That is a question in and of itself. Do we care if they are inconvenienced?
Quote from: mossyoakmilitary on December 19, 2020, 07:23:02 pm
I don't care what classification you are, no private school should be allowed in a public school state playoff. Don't chime in because I don't care about your opinion. I'm entitled to my own opinion. Private schools can play public schools during the regular season but come playoff time it should only be public vs public and private vs private.....PERIOD.
Private schools are allowed to recruit where public schools cannot. This crap is getting old. If AAA cannot figure out a way to get this straight, they all need to be replaced with competent individuals that can.
5A and 4A won the championship and 3A will more than likely win the championship. Screw those elite pompous A-Holes who think they are better than everybody else. Send your kids to a public school and see if they get the laying time. Nope it won't happen. Those coaches will laugh your kids out of the school.
Mossyoak bro Idek who you are but apparently you have something wrong in your head maybe a screw loose or just plain stupid. All of Shiloh players have been there for many years. Same with last years team. Example last year Truitt tollett had 30 receiving touchdown which tied the state record, ranked 3rd in the country for receiving yards, 8 in the country for touchdowns. Guess how long he has been attending Shiloh ??? K,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 grade . Idk if you can count but that's 13 years. Get out of here with your weak opinions. Shiloh doesn't recruit. I recommend maybe seeking some help with your opinions!
Quote from: WHO-AM-I on December 19, 2020, 09:09:40 pm
Mossyoak bro Idek who you are but apparently you have something wrong in your head maybe a screw loose or just plain stupid. All of Shiloh players have been there for many years. Same with last years team. Example last year Truitt tollett had 30 receiving touchdown which tied the state record, ranked 3rd in the country for receiving yards, 8 in the country for touchdowns. Guess how long he has been attending Shiloh ??? K,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 grade . Idk if you can count but that's 13 years. Get out of here with your weak opinions. Shiloh doesn't recruit. I recommend maybe seeking some help with your opinions!
There's way more to this argument than recruiting. Private schools don't have the same regulations that public schools do in a large number of areas. I'm talking about the school district itself. Recruiting is such a small part of this.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 19, 2020, 09:16:42 pm
There's way more to this argument than recruiting. Private schools don't have the same regulations that public schools do in a large number of areas. I'm talking about the school district itself. Recruiting is such a small part of this.
What regulations?
Quote from: WHO-AM-I on December 19, 2020, 09:18:22 pm
What regulations?
Not having to make salaries of employees public, minutes required in certain classes, etc.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 19, 2020, 09:23:16 pm
Not having to make salaries of employees public, minutes required in certain classes, etc.
Bad example. I won't embarrass anybody but it's less. And remember you can't reply. But PHD can. I'm adding him in with the exclusive team of Airwarren and beach bum.
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 09:35:19 pm
Bad example. I won't embarrass anybody but it's less. And remember you can reply. But PHD can. I'm adding him in with the exclusive team of Airwarren and beach bum.
Thought about.
I'm in.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2020, 09:39:19 pm
Thought about.
I'm in.
Given your spot on, perfect assessment you are on my advisory committee. Sorry but I don't have a budget to pay you.
How many private schools in Arkansas field a AAA team? I'm thinking 8 but I may be wrong.
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 09:41:51 pm
Given your spot on, perfect assessment you are on my advisory committee. Sorry but I don't have a budget to pay you.
Public school education and grit. I'll be alright
:D
Quote from: AirWarren on December 19, 2020, 09:48:41 pm
Public school education and grit. I'll be alright
:D
Don't forget I'm a Greenland Pirate!! I'm doing alright. I'm watching it again right now. That 6th and goal hit me pretty hard. Anybody working that program send me a PM please.
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 09:51:59 pm
Don't forget I'm a Greenland Pirate!! I'm doing alright. I'm watching it again right now. That 6th and goal hit me pretty hard. Anybody working that program send me a PM please.
Agreed. I did just fine.
It's a great program. I know Warren is involved with playing.
Quote from: phdefense on December 19, 2020, 08:56:21 pm
That is a question in and of itself. Do we care if they are inconvenienced?
I get that point, but my point is the numbers. Let's say 10 private schools field a 11 man team then that's what 5 conference games. This isn't Tex or Cali to where the private school have elite athletes. They normally just have a great system that their kids have played in for 10 plus years most times than not. In LR the middle schools kids have to get used to a new system in HS. PA kids don't... advantage PA learning time is cut down drastically. I think this is all for not since it doesn't seem as if AAA cares. I'm in favor of the if you a win a Classification 3 times in 5 year then you need to bumped up. I think that's the Texas method.
Quote from: WhyUMad on December 19, 2020, 11:15:47 pm
I get that point, but my point is the numbers. Let's say 10 private schools field a 11 man team then that's what 5 conference games. This isn't Tex or Cali to where the private school have elite athletes. They normally just have a great system that their kids have played in for 10 plus years most times than not. In LR the middle schools kids have to get used to a new system in HS. PA kids don't... advantage PA learning time is cut down drastically. I think this is all for not since it doesn't seem as if AAA cares. I'm in favor of the if you a win a Classification 3 times in 5 year then you need to bumped up. I think that's the Texas method.
Texas has their own league for private schools.
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on December 19, 2020, 09:35:19 pm
Bad example. I won't embarrass anybody but it's less. And remember you can't reply. But PHD can. I'm adding him in with the exclusive team of Airwarren and beach bum.
What's less? I didn't say anything about less/more?
Here is a post from the 5A thread on this topic:
Arguments for splitting private and public:
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- Private Schools aren't being placed in higher classifications just because they are good. Otherwise Greenwood, Barton, and Junction City would've moved up a long time ago. Greenwood recently moved to 6A because of enrollment.
- 5 of the current 8 football playing private schools have won state titles in the past 20 years. 4 of them make up 2% of the AAA football teams but account for 20% of the state titles in classes with private school teams.
- Representing 4% of a group and being responsible for 20% of anything in the group shows you are way more proficient. Percentage and proportion tells the story. Why does America get on to blacks for making up 13% of the population but 50% of the crimes? Because the proportion is vastly different and makes blacks look more likely to be criminals.
- There isn't one public school in 4A with enrollment numbers like PA or LRCA that could possibly beat majority of 6A and 7A teams. In any year.
- Private schools have been dominant in the other sports in the state. Not just football.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
- Nearly every state either has or are in talks of splitting Public and Private schools. This is not just a Arkansas issue
- Majority of non-Texas high school football national champions in the past 20 years are Private Schools. There are like 10 different private schools with national titles in this span.
- St. John Bosco and Don Bosco Prep are national powerhouses with nearly 5A enrollment numbers. De La Salle barely has 1000 students. Most public school powerhouses are at schools with over 2000 students.
- Texas is the king of high school football and has public and private schools split because of foreseeing these issues. They are FAR from liberal snowflakes with a victim mentality.
- Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian this week has a chance to join Pulaski Academy in the Top 10 for the most football state titles in Arkansas history. AGAIN, there are only 8 11-man private schools and 3 of them are possibly going to be in the Top 10 for most football state titles in Arkansas history. And they are doing it in a class higher than their enrollment allows.
- If Catholic and Subiaco Academy weren't all-boys schools, i bet they would be much better.
- Public schools have had to forfeit games for playing players that otherwise would've been eligible at private schools because the rules are different for Public and Private Schools.
- The ratio between Public to Private schools is 24:1. The ratio between Public School titles and Private School titles since 2000 is only 4:1
- Private Schools were initially created for the sole purpose of separating from Public Schools. PA was even formed as a segregation academy after desegregation. So to complain about people wanting to split public and private schools is fairly ironic, considering private schools were/are the ones separating themselves from public schools in everything else in the first place.
Wanting to split Public and Private schools isn't because people are tired of them winning. It's because of the evidence of Private schools having it easier due to recruiting advantages and scholarships. From PA, Shiloh, and Harding to being in the Top 10 for State titles, To Private Schools running the national rankings, to other states like Texas acknowledging an obvious advantage and taking proactive measures, to the basic evidence of private schools being moved up a class higher than their enrollment would put them in.
Im all for suit up and beat the other team. But when there's an obvious concern and acknowledgement about competitive advantage across the nation in this topic, that's when you have to sit and think.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 19, 2020, 11:29:35 pm
Texas has their own league for private schools.
I agree, so does Cali and Fla amongst several other states. My question is how many private schools in Ark field a 11 man team? In Tex I'm sure it's 20 plus easy, in Ark what 10 or so? AAA just seems not care though.
Quote from: WhyUMad on December 20, 2020, 12:10:27 am
I agree, so does Cali and Fla amongst several other states. My question is how many private schools in Ark field a 11 man team? In Tex I'm sure it's 20 plus easy, in Ark what 10 or so? AAA just seems not care though.
Texas has over 200 I believe. They have 427 total private high schools.
There are more private schools on the eastern side of the state who participate in the Mississippi Private school league for those who may not be aware. There are 3 within a 50 mile radius in the Helena, marvell, and marriana communities. I'm not 100% certain but I think there is at least one in the Lake village area
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 19, 2020, 06:04:50 pm
Oh no it's no frustration lol. Just making my case and backing it with facts and numbers. Im just seeing what the rebuttals will be instead of the typical "Here we go again, line up and play, stop crying, don't punish teams for being too good" responses (which are fairly weak).
The debate is actually interesting. Pulaski Academy beat LR Christian in the 5A finals. Shiloh Christian manhandled Rivercrest today in 4A, and Harding Academy is about to win 3A tonight. For gits and shiggles, Episcopal played Subiaco Academy in the 8-man title game and won after both beat public schools in the semis lol.
It played out that way. And all games were blowouts. Something has to change.
Every student in Arkansas is given access to a public school and sports programs whether they attend the public school or not. Nobody is denied anything.
The athletic programs of private schools that can and do deny admission because of religious beliefs, gender, sexual orientation, abilities and etc. should not be the responsibility of the taxpayer.
Quote from: Jabali on December 20, 2020, 08:14:23 am
Every student in Arkansas is given access to a public school and sports programs whether they attend the public school or not. Nobody is denied anything.
The athletic programs of private schools that can and do deny admission because of religious beliefs, gender, sexual orientation, abilities and etc. should not be the responsibility of the taxpayer.
I agree.
Blueco those lil private schools in eastern Arkansas only play 8 man now. St Mary's (K-8) closed in Lake Village. Montrose Academy closed a long time ago.
Quote from: panther07 on December 20, 2020, 12:34:17 am
Texas has over 200 I believe. They have 427 total private high schools.
Good win last night! The QB/WR combo of 17 and 20 was amazing to watch! You can tell they have been together for a long time!
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 19, 2020, 09:16:42 pm
There's way more to this argument than recruiting. Private schools don't have the same regulations that public schools do in a large number of areas. I'm talking about the school district itself. Recruiting is such a small part of this.
Yes it's just sad! My school lost to a private school so let's cry! More than recruiting?? Hmmm ALL of the schools in NWA have indoor facilities EXCEPT for Shiloh, ALL of the public schools in NWA have top level weight rooms EXCEPT Shiloh, I would say all of the schools in NWA have an equal field in quality of education, I would also say money is leaning towards the public school side with Tyson money in Springdale and Walmart money in Bentonville. Majority of schools in 4A-1 have newer fields than Shiloh and they are top notch. If anything Shiloh has MORE regulations than the public! If you move from Bentonville to Rogers you go to Rogers and play immediately. If you move from Bentonville to Rogers and go to Shiloh you have to sit a year. Kids move from Harber to Springdale schools every year and are eligible but go to Shiloh and you have to sit.
Quote from: ea cat on December 20, 2020, 09:13:56 am
Blueco those lil private schools in eastern Arkansas only play 8 man now. St Mary's (K-8) closed in Lake Village. Montrose Academy closed a long time ago.
I thought there were a couple down that way but couldn't remember their names and sure didn't know one had closed. So Desoto, Lee Academy, and Marvell Academy are 8 man now?
Quote from: rzrbackfan on December 20, 2020, 09:28:37 am
Yes it's just sad! My school lost to a private school so let's cry! More than recruiting?? Hmmm ALL of the schools in NWA have indoor facilities EXCEPT for Shiloh, ALL of the public schools in NWA have top level weight rooms EXCEPT Shiloh, I would say all of the schools in NWA have an equal field in quality of education, I would also say money is leaning towards the public school side with Tyson money in Springdale and Walmart money in Bentonville. Majority of schools in 4A-1 have newer fields than Shiloh and they are top notch. If anything Shiloh has MORE regulations than the public! If you move from Bentonville to Rogers you go to Rogers and play immediately. If you move from Bentonville to Rogers and go to Shiloh you have to sit a year. Kids move from Harber to Springdale schools every year and are eligible but go to Shiloh and you have to sit.
Yes, all these states that are separating private schools are babies and just crying. 60% of football playing private schools played in the state title game. But I'm sure that's just coincidence. I can tell from your arguments that you are a beginner on this topic. The things your arguing are borderline irrelevant to this topic and the inequalities
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 20, 2020, 09:33:14 am
Yes, all these states that are separating private schools are babies and just crying. 60% of football playing private schools played in the state title game. But I'm sure that's just coincidence. I can tell from your arguments that you are a beginner on this topic. The things your arguing are borderline irrelevant to this topic and the inequalities
Nope not new only post when I find things funny! Irrelevant? How? And am I on the private side? Nope! Love me some Greenwood football! #1 program in the STATE! Greenwood would beat Shiloh, Little Rock Christian and PA! We don't teach our kids to fear competition we teach them to seek it out.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on December 20, 2020, 09:49:28 am
Nope not new only post when I find things funny! Irrelevant? How? And am I on the private side? Nope! Love me some Greenwood football! #1 program in the STATE! Greenwood would beat Shiloh, Little Rock Christian and PA! We don't teach our kids to fear competition we teach them to seek it out.
One of many examples: one school can let their kids out of class to get an extra practice in without worrying about state reprimand, another can't. Another example, one school can reject troubled students/parents while the other can't. One school has to report its salaries while the other doesn't. One school has to go through the cheapest bid and report those bids while the other doesn't. You understand these examples could go on all day since your not a rookie to this (I'm still skeptical). On the surface some of those things don't seem to have anything to do with athletics. But loopholes begin to exist if you look further.
I've watched Greenwood many times this year. I've also watched PA. PA would beat Greenwood this year and would probably pull away in the 3rd/4th quarter. That's not the case every year. IF you really are a Greenwood person and not a private school person, you guys don't have a private school in your classification (which was really weak this year by the way). So don't waste your time lecturing on working harder and seeking competition.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 20, 2020, 10:04:06 am
One of many examples: one school can let their kids out of class to get an extra practice in without worrying about state reprimand, another can't. Another example, one school can reject troubled students/parents while the other can't. One school has to report its salaries while the other doesn't. One school has to go through the cheapest bid and report those bids while the other doesn't. You understand these examples could go on all day since your not a rookie to this (I'm still skeptical). On the surface some of those things don't seem to have anything to do with athletics. But loopholes begin to exist if you look further. Extra practices? You have seen this first hand at Shiloh? Have to take cheapest bids? So your facilities are bad? Greenwood's aren't! Our police drive Hummers to the game! And I know a little about Shiloh as Greenwood plays Shiloh in youth football every year. That's probably why Shiloh has gotten better! They aren't afraid to play us!
I've watched Greenwood many times this year. I've also watched PA. PA would beat Greenwood this year and would probably pull away in the 3rd/4th quarter. That's not the case every year. IF you really are a Greenwood person and not a private school person, you guys don't have a private school in your classification (which was really weak this year by the way). So don't waste your time lecturing on working harder and seeking competition.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on December 20, 2020, 10:10:40 am
If you took a pool of data say about grocery stores. Let's say there's 8% of the stores that are going to operate under the same set of guidelines as each other, and the other 92% percent are going to operate under another set of guidelines. If the 8% accounts for 60% of the profits for all of the stores together, would you say they are working harder or would you think maybe the set of guidelines they are under give them some sort of advantage over the other stores? I'll bet if you were the CEO you wouldn't be telling the 92% that they aren't working hard enough lol. But because this is football, that's what you are going to say. It's ignorance. Period.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on December 20, 2020, 10:10:40 am
Facilities lol, Shiloh was practicing in the razorbacks indoor. Do you think there is an advantage that one school has parents that can afford personal trainers, camps, extra lessons/training, supplements, good diet, and are around enough to teach good values of work ethic, being a good teammate, etc. And then that school is going to play against a school that is 70% or 85% free/reduced lunch rate? Come on man, open up your eyes.
While you guys are going to your 7 on 7s all summer, other schools have kids working to help their families pay the bills. Yea, tell that kid he int working hard enough. That kid probably leaves work and then joins his high school team for a night session of 7 on 7 against another few schools close enough for him to get home, go to bed, and go to work in the morning. That's why that kids coach doesn't take them out of state, overnight in hotels, etc for 7 on 7s and team camps. If he demanded that he wouldn't have a roster. But fire that coach and get a real one in there, that will fix it! Sadly, some coaches do lose their positions because of idiotic logic.
Serious question, can a kid drive as far as he wants to go to a private school or do they have boundaries like public schools?
Quote from: Oldman on December 20, 2020, 10:33:42 am
Serious question, can a kid drive as far as he wants to go to a private school or do they have boundaries like public schools?
Go knock on the door of the house 5 min south of I-530 heading towards Warren that has a "Home of a Warrior" LRCA yard sign and ask them. Saw it with my own two eyes heading home last weekend.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2020, 10:38:04 am
Go knock on the door of the house 5 min south of I-530 heading towards Warren that has a "Home of a Warrior" LRCA yard sign and ask them. Saw it with my own two eyes heading home last weekend.
I want to know the rule. Someone 7 minutes up the 4 lane can't come to Mcgehee.
Quote from: Oldman on December 20, 2020, 10:33:42 am
Serious question, can a kid drive as far as he wants to go to a private school or do they have boundaries like public schools?
In Arkansas, kids don't have boundaries for public schools. Under school choice laws, they can go where they want. Happens all the time at public schools in NWA. Public school kids move to play sports or to take a certain curriculum.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 10:48:31 am
In Arkansas, kids don't have boundaries for public schools. Under school choice laws, they can go where they want. Happens all the time at public schools in NWA. Public school kids move to play sports or to take a certain curriculum.
Really not that hard of a question. No school choice in Desha County. Can anyone is NW Arkansas go to Shiloh or is there a mile limit? Entire family had to move to Hoxie from Jonesboro for that to work.
Quote from: Oldman on December 20, 2020, 10:43:20 am
I want to know the rule. Someone 7 minutes up the 4 lane can't come to Mcgehee.
Well, I'm not sure of the rule. But that's why they are "private". They have their own standards they follow by.
I know PA had a WR by the name of Cruz Williams several years ago. He lived in Malvern.
Quote from: Oldman on December 20, 2020, 10:43:20 am
I want to know the rule. Someone 7 minutes up the 4 lane can't come to Mcgehee.
From my understanding no, if I wanted my sons to go to SC we would have to sell our house and move there and still may have to sit a year. This was told to me by some friends wanting to put their son at LRCA who lived outside of Conway.
Quote from: Oldman on December 20, 2020, 10:50:56 am
Really not that hard of a question. No school choice in Desha County. Can anyone is NW Arkansas go to Shiloh or is there a mile limit? Entire family had to move to Hoxie from Jonesboro for that to work.
yes there is! It's 130 miles and that kid has to sit out a year. Again you can't move from bentonville to Fayetteville and send your kid to Shiloh without sitting. You can decide to send your Rogers kid to bentonville though and not sit. Of course you can send ft
Smith kids to Greenwood which is also why we dominate! Kids seek us out like the private schools we don't beg anyone to come to Greenwood! You want to come to a successful program and do it right and we will accept you! Same as the privates! You think kids don't seek PA out? Why do kids want to go into the SEC? It's the best conf is it unfair that some are good enough to go to AL when some can only go to AR or any other school in AR? Maybe but it's life! Don't know about Shiloh practicing in ARs indoor facility find that fact questionable as the Hogs are practicing there. But I guess it's possible even though weather has been great this year in Arkansas and I don't see any reason for it! Either way it doesn't affect me! Greenwood will remain Greenwood and even if we Moved up would continue to dominate. We don't run from anyone as we played Northside, Southside, Bentonville West and Harber this year for those last year asking why Greenwood doesn't play NWA teams, and beat them all! Sorry for those schools that fall in the wake of Greenwood dominance!
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2020, 10:52:47 am
Well, I'm not sure of the rule. But that's why they are "private". They have their own standards they follow by.
I know PA had a WR by the name of Cruz Williams several years ago. He lived in Malvern.
Wow!
Quote from: rzrbackfan on December 20, 2020, 11:24:36 am
yes there is! It's 130 miles and that kid has to sit out a year. Again you can't move from bentonville to Fayetteville and send your kid to Shiloh without sitting. You can decide to send your Rogers kid to bentonville though and not sit. Of course you can send ft
Smith kids to Greenwood which is also why we dominate! Kids seek us out like the private schools we don't beg anyone to come to Greenwood! You want to come to a successful program and do it right and we will accept you! Same as the privates! You think kids don't seek PA out? Why do kids want to go into the SEC? It's the best conf is it unfair that some are good enough to go to AL when some can only go to AR or any other school in AR? Maybe but it's life! Don't know about Shiloh practicing in ARs indoor facility find that fact questionable as the Hogs are practicing there. But I guess it's possible even though weather has been great this year in Arkansas and I don't see any reason for it! Either way it doesn't affect me! Greenwood will remain Greenwood and even if we Moved up would continue to dominate. We don't run from anyone as we played Northside, Southside, Bentonville West and Harber this year for those last year asking why Greenwood doesn't play NWA teams, and beat them all! Sorry for those schools that fall in the wake of Greenwood dominance!
Too long and about yourself. Glad I didn't ask two questions.
Quote from: Oldman on December 20, 2020, 11:43:49 am
Too long and about yourself. Glad I didn't ask two questions.
Yet he can't answer my post lol.
Probably all coincidence that the championships end up like this. Other states separate them for no reason. Nobody else runs same system from 7th up. They have to sit 365 (and....this happens so not sure what the point is on that one)
What else am I missing?
Quote from: scrapman on December 20, 2020, 11:50:02 am
Probably all coincidence that the championships end up like this. Other states separate them for no reason. Nobody else runs same system from 7th up. They have to sit 365 (and....this happens so not sure what the point is on that one)
What else am I missing?
They'll make something else up. They are to vested to just admit it. Private school people don't want to play only each other and will stop at nothing to keep it from happening.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 20, 2020, 12:07:13 pm
They'll make something else up. They are to vested to just admit it. Private school people don't want to play only each other and will stop at nothing to keep it from happening.
The first rule of private school ball is we don't talk about private school ball.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2020, 10:38:04 am
Go knock on the door of the house 5 min south of I-530 heading towards Warren that has a "Home of a Warrior" LRCA yard sign and ask them. Saw it with my own two eyes heading home last weekend.
Grandparent. Go knock and ask if you don't believe me.
Quote from: WhyUMad on December 20, 2020, 11:24:24 am
From my understanding no, if I wanted my sons to go to SC we would have to sell our house and move there and still may have to sit a year. This was told to me by some friends wanting to put their son at LRCA who lived outside of Conway.
Exactly, the private school "district" is a 25-mile radius around the school.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2020, 10:52:47 am
Well, I'm not sure of the rule. But that's why they are "private". They have their own standards they follow by.
I know PA had a WR by the name of Cruz Williams several years ago. He lived in Malvern.
They're private because they don't accept public money. Hence the term private. That are still subject to the same academic requirements as any public school. In fact, in every case I have seen, their internal requirements are higher than those of public schools.
Quote from: Oldman on December 20, 2020, 11:43:49 am
Too long and about yourself. Glad I didn't ask two questions.
Lol... This is another example of why you are in the FF Hall of Fame in my book.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 12:39:07 pm
They're private because they don't accept public money. Hence the term private. That are still subject to the same academic requirements as any public school. In fact, in every case I have seen, their internal requirements are higher than those of public schools.
They are also private so they can deny admission to their school. They can, and some do choose not to educate kids because of religious beliefs, gender, sexual orientation, abilities and so on.
The public schools that I have dealings with do not have or want that option and I would be ashamed of them if they did.
Quote from: RazorDad on December 20, 2020, 12:29:32 pm
Exactly, the private school "district" is a 25-mile radius around the school.
Thank you. This is what I wanted to know.
Quote from: Oldman on December 20, 2020, 01:22:03 pm
Thank you. This is what I wanted to know.
And he gave you a straight, to the point answer!
Quote from: scrapman on December 20, 2020, 12:10:57 pm
The first rule of private school ball is we don't talk about private school ball.
😂
Quote from: Oldman on December 20, 2020, 01:22:03 pm
Thank you. This is what I wanted to know.
25 miles zone for what ??
Quote from: WHO-AM-I on December 20, 2020, 02:16:56 pm
25 miles zone for what ??
Use your finger and sound the words out. Take your time.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 12:39:07 pm
They're private because they don't accept public money. Hence the term private. That are still subject to the same academic requirements as any public school. In fact, in every case I have seen, their internal requirements are higher than those of public schools.
No way to measure the internal requirements. Or If kids get better education since grades aren't released to the public.
I'll use Pulaski academy as an example. The school has a ton of parents who are physicians, commercial developers, lawyers etc. Hence, they are either set up for success by successful parents. Which is an amazing privilege. But let's not pretend that "average" kids of these parents don't have a leg up when the highly successful and respected cardiovascular surgeon in Little Rock who has pull at UAMS doesn't matter. That letter of recommendation for their kid is gold in the "politics" world of medical school entrance. Or a commercial developer who has their kid go get their business degree and parlay right into the family business with a guaranteed good salary. Those things matter.
I know this, I'm a registered nurse. I didn't want to go to school for 12 years for medical school. I've worked with many of physicians, a lot who went to public school, that will tell you it's harder on them to get into med school if you "aren't connected". But luckily my kiddo will have a lot of physicians who will write her a letter of recommendation if she does indeed decide to pursue medicine.
It's not that the private school recruit the top talent in the state because that's rarely the case. However the kids that they do get are kids that fit their system perfectly whereas public school you get who you get (with the exception of GW, Bryant, Joe T, and NLR lol) some years they have the players to do certain things and some years they don't. Private schools rarely change their systems unless they bring in a new coach and even then you still see a resemblance of the old system.
Private schools also more often than not have good kids from stable homes that only have to worry about school and high school football. We already know about their counterparts.
I don't have a major problem with it but I understand
Quote from: Oldman on December 20, 2020, 02:21:30 pm
Use your finger and sound the words out. Take your time.
Oldman you forget I'm your daddy???😈
Quote from: WHO-AM-I on December 20, 2020, 03:42:53 pm
Oldman you forget I'm your daddy???😈
Use your finger and sound out the words. Take your time dad.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2020, 02:33:14 pm
No way to measure the internal requirements. Or If kids get better education since grades aren't released to the public.
I'll use Pulaski academy as an example. The school has a ton of parents who are physicians, commercial developers, lawyers etc. Hence, they are either set up for success by successful parents. Which is an amazing privilege. But let's not pretend that "average" kids of these parents don't have a leg up when the highly successful and respected cardiovascular surgeon in Little Rock who has pull at UAMS doesn't matter. That letter of recommendation for their kid is gold in the "politics" world of medical school entrance. Or a commercial developer who has their kid go get their business degree and parlay right into the family business with a guaranteed good salary. Those things matter.
I know this, I'm a registered nurse. I didn't want to go to school for 12 years for medical school. I've worked with many of physicians, a lot who went to public school, that will tell you it's harder on them to get into med school if you "aren't connected". But luckily my kiddo will have a lot of physicians who will write her a letter of recommendation if she does indeed decide to pursue medicine.
Thought you sold real estate now
Thought he was a life coach.
Quote from: mossyoakmilitary on December 19, 2020, 07:23:02 pm
I don't care what classification you are, no private school should be allowed in a public school state playoff. Don't chime in because I don't care about your opinion. I'm entitled to my own opinion. Private schools can play public schools during the regular season but come playoff time it should only be public vs public and private vs private.....PERIOD.
Private schools are allowed to recruit where public schools cannot. This crap is getting old. If AAA cannot figure out a way to get this straight, they all need to be replaced with competent individuals that can.
5A and 4A won the championship and 3A will more than likely win the championship. Screw those elite pompous A-Holes who think they are better than everybody else. Send your kids to a public school and see if they get the laying time. Nope it won't happen. Those coaches will laugh your kids out of the school.
U mad u don't have daddy's money 💰 💴 💵
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on December 20, 2020, 04:10:41 pm
Thought you sold real estate now
I dabble in a lil bit of everything. I have a few irons in the fire right now. I'm young, get it now while I'm able.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 19, 2020, 09:23:16 pm
Not having to make salaries of employees public, minutes required in certain classes, etc.
Don't know anything about salaries. As far as minutes in certain classes, Shiloh has pretty rigorous academic standards. Many of their players take advanced classes and graduate with college hours just like kids in public schools. Their grades are monitored and if they don't maintain good grades, they don't play.
So... what I'm reading is, this isn't about private school vs public school, it's about poor vs rich. Public schools in Northwest AR provide more advantages in Sports than does Shiloh. Is our coaching better, I think so, but that's a product of diligently seeking out the best fit for our school, any well run public school can do the same.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 05:15:16 pm
So... what I'm reading is, this isn't about private school vs public school, it's about poor vs rich. Public schools in Northwest AR provide more advantages in Sports than does Shiloh. Is our coaching better, I think so, but that's a product of diligently seeking out the best fit for our school, any well run public school can do the same.
If you believe any public school can attract the same kids a private school does you are living in fantasy land.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 05:15:16 pm
So... what I'm reading is, this isn't about private school vs public school, it's about poor vs rich. Public schools in Northwest AR provide more advantages in Sports than does Shiloh. Is our coaching better, I think so, but that's a product of diligently seeking out the best fit for our school, any well run public school can do the same.
Define rich?
Having two 60k vehicles, house you can't afford, maxed out credit cards and private school tuition doesn't make you "rich". I imagine there is plenty of that in the private schools as well as families that are well off. That or gramma and grandpa footing the bill. We toured one in LR one time. They told us we can put as many cards on the account as possible including family members. I heard all I needed to hear.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 12:39:07 pm
They're private because they don't accept public money. Hence the term private. That are still subject to the same academic requirements as any public school. In fact, in every case I have seen, their internal requirements are higher than those of public schools.
I just asked my wife "are private schools subject to the same academic requirements as public" she said that private schools can choose their curriculum. Public schools can't choose what curriculum they prefer to use. Hence why so many public school teachers hate the common core curriculum but they have to teach it.
Quote from: WhyUMad on December 20, 2020, 06:06:49 pm
I just asked my wife "are private schools subject to the same academic requirements as public" she said that private schools can choose their curriculum. Public schools can't choose what curriculum they prefer to use. Hence why so many public school teachers hate the common core curriculum but they have to teach it.
Say it again for those in the back.
Public schools do have the option to teach common core and traditional math in the classroom.
I'm pretty sure if a kid lives in dumas school district and decides to use school choice and attend at mcgehee school district they would have to sit out a year if there isn't a physical move
To be quite honest if private schools were placed in their own classification and public schools were left on their own there would be some of the same posters complaining about the same handful of public schools that were always winning the state title.
Quote from: BLEUcoo on December 20, 2020, 07:38:32 pm
I'm pretty sure if a kid lives in dumas school district and decides to use school choice and attend at mcgehee school district they would have to sit out a year if there isn't a physical move
Correct with a couple qualifiers (taken from the AAA website)
School Choice
A student shall meet the domicile requirement under school choice if: (1) the student applies for school choice prior to July 1 (before a student enters grades 7 – 10) and receives approval and (2) Has a CSAP Form (Changing Schools/Athletic Participation Form) signed by the administration of both schools prior to interscholastic competition.
Students applying and receiving school choice approval after July 1 entering the 10th grade shall not be eligible for one calendar year (365 days) unless there is a bona fide move from one public school district into the public school district that the student will be attending.
If the CSAP form isn't signed off on, then they have to sit as well prior to the 9th grade, so usually no problem playing immediately in jr high
Downside is school choice isn't a given where all "applicants" are accepted. Most districts have limits on school choice kids that they'll accept and the district they are transferring from also has to sign off - which usually isn't a problem, but can be in certain situations.
Quote from: Arkiesoccer on December 20, 2020, 07:53:58 pm
Correct with a couple qualifiers (taken from the AAA website)
School Choice
A student shall meet the domicile requirement under school choice if: (1) the student applies for school choice prior to July 1 (before a student enters grades 7 – 10) and receives approval and (2) Has a CSAP Form (Changing Schools/Athletic Participation Form) signed by the administration of both schools prior to interscholastic competition.
Students applying and receiving school choice approval after July 1 entering the 10th grade shall not be eligible for one calendar year (365 days) unless there is a bona fide move from one public school district into the public school district that the student will be attending.
If the CSAP form isn't signed off on, then they have to sit as well prior to the 9th grade, so usually no problem playing immediately in jr high
Downside is school choice isn't a given where all "applicants" are accepted. Most districts have limits on school choice kids that they'll accept and the district they are transferring from also has to sign off - which usually isn't a problem, but can be in certain situations.
Comes down to race balance.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 20, 2020, 06:37:24 pm
Say it again for those in the back.
Fundamental difference between curricula and academic standards.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 20, 2020, 05:23:09 pm
If you believe any public school can attract the same kids a private school does you are living in fantasy land.
You obviously aren't from Northwest AR. There's much more talent in public schoolS here than in private.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2020, 05:43:51 pm
Define rich?
Having two 60k vehicles, house you can't afford, maxed out credit cards and private school tuition doesn't make you "rich". I imagine there is plenty of that in the private schools as well as families that are well off. That or gramma and grandpa footing the bill. We toured one in LR one time. They told us we can put as many cards on the account as possible including family members. I heard all I needed to hear.
My point was, many of the complaints about private schools here, aren't really about private schools, they're about well funded vs not well funded. Athletics wise, Everything Private schools have in NWA, public schools have more and better.
Quote from: BLEUcoo on December 20, 2020, 07:38:32 pm
I'm pretty sure if a kid lives in dumas school district and decides to use school choice and attend at mcgehee school district they would have to sit out a year if there isn't a physical move
That used to be the case, not any longer with public schools. There are plenty of public school kids who jump every year and play in NWA. The only school here where a kid sits out is Shiloh.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2020, 08:04:29 pm
Comes down to race balance.
A lot of people don't understand school choice. AW said it, it all comes down to race balance. What I mean is this, a white kid transferring into a school with a predominantly black enrollment would be accepted to try to equal the numbers out. A white kid transferring into a school with a predominantly white enrollment does not have to be accepted. It all depends on the situation. Public schools also have to accept the state forcing the annexation of schools into your district.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 09:16:34 pm
My point was, many of the complaints about private schools here, aren't really about private schools, they're about well funded vs not well funded. Athletics wise, Everything Private schools have in NWA, public schools have more and better.
Nope, they are about private schools. Not about well funded vs not well funded.
A great post from the 5A thread:
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- Private Schools aren't being placed in higher classifications just because they are good. Otherwise Greenwood, Barton, and Junction City would've moved up a long time ago. Greenwood recently moved to 6A because of enrollment.
- 5 of the current 8 football playing private schools have won state titles in the past 20 years. 4 of them make up 2% of the AAA football teams but account for 20% of the state titles in classes with private school teams.
- Representing 4% of a group and being responsible for 20% of anything in the group shows you are way more proficient. Percentage and proportion tells the story. Why does America get on to blacks for making up 13% of the population but 50% of the crimes? Because the proportion is vastly different and makes blacks look more likely to be criminals.
- There isn't one public school in 4A with enrollment numbers like PA or LRCA that could possibly beat majority of 6A and 7A teams. In any year.
- Private schools have been dominant in the other sports in the state. Not just football.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
- Nearly every state either has or are in talks of splitting Public and Private schools. This is not just a Arkansas issue
- Majority of non-Texas high school football national champions in the past 20 years are Private Schools. There are like 10 different private schools with national titles in this span.
- St. John Bosco and Don Bosco Prep are national powerhouses with nearly 5A enrollment numbers. De La Salle barely has 1000 students. Most public school powerhouses are at schools with over 2000 students.
- Texas is the king of high school football and has public and private schools split because of foreseeing these issues. They are FAR from liberal snowflakes with a victim mentality.
- Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian this week has a chance to join Pulaski Academy in the Top 10 for the most football state titles in Arkansas history. AGAIN, there are only 8 11-man private schools and 3 of them are possibly going to be in the Top 10 for most football state titles in Arkansas history. And they are doing it in a class higher than their enrollment allows.
- If Catholic and Subiaco Academy weren't all-boys schools, i bet they would be much better.
- Public schools have had to forfeit games for playing players that otherwise would've been eligible at private schools because the rules are different for Public and Private Schools.
- The ratio between Public to Private schools is 24:1. The ratio between Public School titles and Private School titles since 2000 is only 4:1
- Private Schools were initially created for the sole purpose of separating from Public Schools. PA was even formed as a segregation academy after desegregation. So to complain about people wanting to split public and private schools is fairly ironic, considering private schools were/are the ones separating themselves from public schools in everything else in the first place.
Wanting to split Public and Private schools isn't because people are tired of them winning. It's because of the evidence of Private schools having it easier due to recruiting advantages and scholarships. From PA, Shiloh, and Harding to being in the Top 10 for State titles, To Private Schools running the national rankings, to other states like Texas acknowledging an obvious advantage and taking proactive measures, to the basic evidence of private schools being moved up a class higher than their enrollment would put them in.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 20, 2020, 09:29:46 pm
A great post from the 5A thread:
- Private Schools being put in a class higher than their enrollment would have them is a basic acknowledgement of Private Schools having more advantages. Arkansas isn't the only state that does this.
- Private Schools aren't being placed in higher classifications just because they are good. Otherwise Greenwood, Barton, and Junction City would've moved up a long time ago. Greenwood recently moved to 6A because of enrollment.
- 5 of the current 8 football playing private schools have won state titles in the past 20 years. 4 of them make up 2% of the AAA football teams but account for 20% of the state titles in classes with private school teams.
- Representing 4% of a group and being responsible for 20% of anything in the group shows you are way more proficient. Percentage and proportion tells the story. Why does America get on to blacks for making up 13% of the population but 50% of the crimes? Because the proportion is vastly different and makes blacks look more likely to be criminals.
- There isn't one public school in 4A with enrollment numbers like PA or LRCA that could possibly beat majority of 6A and 7A teams. In any year.
- Private schools have been dominant in the other sports in the state. Not just football.
- Private schools don't have zone/district boundaries to abide by like public schools. Nor do they have to share funds with other schools like a lot of Public schools. If they do, its only 1 elementary, 1 middle, and 1 high school.
- Nearly every state either has or are in talks of splitting Public and Private schools. This is not just a Arkansas issue
- Majority of non-Texas high school football national champions in the past 20 years are Private Schools. There are like 10 different private schools with national titles in this span.
- St. John Bosco and Don Bosco Prep are national powerhouses with nearly 5A enrollment numbers. De La Salle barely has 1000 students. Most public school powerhouses are at schools with over 2000 students.
- Texas is the king of high school football and has public and private schools split because of foreseeing these issues. They are FAR from liberal snowflakes with a victim mentality.
- Harding Academy and Shiloh Christian this week has a chance to join Pulaski Academy in the Top 10 for the most football state titles in Arkansas history. AGAIN, there are only 8 11-man private schools and 3 of them are possibly going to be in the Top 10 for most football state titles in Arkansas history. And they are doing it in a class higher than their enrollment allows.
- If Catholic and Subiaco Academy weren't all-boys schools, i bet they would be much better.
- Public schools have had to forfeit games for playing players that otherwise would've been eligible at private schools because the rules are different for Public and Private Schools.
- The ratio between Public to Private schools is 24:1. The ratio between Public School titles and Private School titles since 2000 is only 4:1
- Private Schools were initially created for the sole purpose of separating from Public Schools. PA was even formed as a segregation academy after desegregation. So to complain about people wanting to split public and private schools is fairly ironic, considering private schools were/are the ones separating themselves from public schools in everything else in the first place.
Wanting to split Public and Private schools isn't because people are tired of them winning. It's because of the evidence of Private schools having it easier due to recruiting advantages and scholarships. From PA, Shiloh, and Harding to being in the Top 10 for State titles, To Private Schools running the national rankings, to other states like Texas acknowledging an obvious advantage and taking proactive measures, to the basic evidence of private schools being moved up a class higher than their enrollment would put them in.
The whole problem with this argument lies on the last past;
1. Scholarships cannot be given to athletes under AAA rules. If they're playing, they're paying their own way.
2. I don't know about other private schools, but Shiloh doesn't recruit. Their programs have been building from the ground up for years.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 10:00:33 pm
The whole problem with this argument lies on the last past;
1. Scholarships cannot be given to athletes under AAA rules. If they're playing, they're paying their own way.
2. I don't know about other private schools, but Shiloh doesn't recruit. Their programs have been building from the ground up for years.
1. There are several different parts, it's not just one argument.
2. They don't scholarship "students"?
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 09:16:34 pm
My point was, many of the complaints about private schools here, aren't really about private schools, they're about well funded vs not well funded. Athletics wise, Everything Private schools have in NWA, public schools have more and better.
I can get behind that point. There are some great public schools in great tax bases. Benton and Bryant come to mind in central Arkansas.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 20, 2020, 10:13:36 pm
1. There are several different parts, it's not just one argument.
2. They don't scholarship "students"?
No, it's against AAA rules for students on scholarship to compete in athletics.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 10:22:57 pm
No, it's against AAA rules for students on scholarship to compete in athletics.
That's news to me. You might tell the other private schools people that information so they quit defending their doing so as "peeble heppin".
If you've read my posts, I stay away from "the private schools recruit" stuff. Not because I think it is or isn't going on, I just don't have any reliable data other than a few former private school coaches telling me it happens.
We have private schools who can travel out of state and all over this state for 7 on 7s and team camps. They pay to bring in consultants, strength and conditioning experts and supplements. Their parents (almost all of them) can send their kids to camps, pay for extra lessons, buy supplements and extra meals, etc. they are in the house to instill good values that supports good culture in the team. You have a whole roster full and have the authority to refuse troubled students in your district. Thats going to play against public schools that have 70, 80, and even 90% free/reduced lunch rates. Kids who struggle to make it to a 7 on 7 30 minutes away because of their work schedule to help pay the bills. A coach who is in charge of coaching an entire roster of that. Kids who struggle to get 3 meals. And the private school people say "work harder". No, those kids are working harder, they just don't have time to play as hard in life like focusing everything on a sport. They literally are "working".
There's a lot more to it than that, but I wanted to give one example of how it's more than just recruiting.
I'm going to post this again here because it went undisputed the first time.
If you took a pool of data say about grocery stores. Let's say there's 8% of the stores that are going to operate under the same set of guidelines as each other, and the other 92% percent are going to operate under another set of guidelines. If the 8% accounts for 60% of the profits for all of the stores together, would you say they are working harder or would you think maybe the set of guidelines they are under give them some sort of advantage over the other stores? I'll bet if you were the CEO you wouldn't be telling the 92% that they aren't working hard enough lol. But because this is football, that's what you are going to say. It's ignorance. Period.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 20, 2020, 09:09:45 pm
Fundamental difference between curricula and academic standards.
If the curriculum isn't the same then the academic standards aren't the same. It can't be both ways.
Quote from: AirWarren on December 20, 2020, 06:54:11 pm
Public schools do have the option to teach common core and traditional math in the classroom.
That's news to me... I'll ask her in the morning.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 20, 2020, 08:10:27 am
It played out that way. And all games were blowouts. Something has to change.
It does need to be looked at. 3 out of 6 state champs are private schools this year. We've only had 4 seasons in the past 21 years where a private school didn win. And 3 of those 4 seasons had a private school in the title game at least.
I really believe if Catholic wasnt an all-boys school, they would run 7A. Subiaco would've been better as well. Conway Christian has under 100 students and was winning 10 games a season in 2A, making deep playoff runs. If they can get their enrollment up, theyl win a title soon.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 20, 2020, 11:04:30 pm
I'm going to post this again here because it went undisputed the first time.
If you took a pool of data say about grocery stores. Let's say there's 8% of the stores that are going to operate under the same set of guidelines as each other, and the other 92% percent are going to operate under another set of guidelines. If the 8% accounts for 60% of the profits for all of the stores together, would you say they are working harder or would you think maybe the set of guidelines they are under give them some sort of advantage over the other stores? I'll bet if you were the CEO you wouldn't be telling the 92% that they aren't working hard enough lol. But because this is football, that's what you are going to say. It's ignorance. Period.
Your data is irrelevant because 75% of public schools will never play in a state championship either. If you went back and compared the public schools who consistently compete at a state championship level to those who don't, you'll find almost the same stats. Isn't it ironic that, if you include the consistent top performing public schools in those stats, they just don't change all that much. You're cherry picking the data to make private schools look bad, when it's not just a problem with private schools, but also well financed and/or well coached and supported public schools. A Greenwood or Berryville are never going to be competitive and choosing to group them in with Arky, Joe T., or Nashville just to inflate your numbers, is being intellectually dishonest.
Quote from: WhyUMad on December 21, 2020, 12:31:11 am
If the curriculum isn't the same then the academic standards aren't the same. It can't be both ways.
Wrong, academic standards are measured by standardized tests, not by curricula. How you teach shouldn't affect the students ability to comprehend the same tests. If public schools aren't teaching deductive reasoning ability, that's the fault of the public school, not the private school. It's as simple as using the same curriculum, if someone is preventing this, perhaps that should be addressed with the local school board or the legislature. Instead of punishing private schools, maybe, you should work to improve public schools.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 18, 2020, 01:15:55 pm
"They should never have been allowed to play..."
You criticized not wanting kids to go to school with others? Now you're supporting not wanting kids to compete with others. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
And that's what's funny about all this! Private schools wanted to be separated from public schools, but still want to compete in athletics with public schools. How can you have it both ways?
Quote from: tmdowell on December 21, 2020, 02:12:45 am
Wrong, academic standards are measured by standardized tests, not by curricula. How you teach shouldn't affect the students ability to comprehend the same tests. If public schools aren't teaching deductive reasoning ability, that's the fault of the public school, not the private school. It's as simple as using the same curriculum, if someone is preventing this, perhaps that should be addressed with the local school board or the legislature. Instead of punishing private schools, maybe, you should work to improve public schools.
We will never know what the average ACT/SAT score is for a private school. Data isn't released. And I'm not taking anyone's word for it either unfortunately.
I have allowed this post for civil discussion but I see some of you can't have a civil discussion. Zero tolerance or you and this thread is gone
Quote from: tmdowell on December 21, 2020, 02:07:45 am
Your data is irrelevant because 75% of public schools will never play in a state championship either. If you went back and compared the public schools who consistently compete at a state championship level to those who don't, you'll find almost the same stats. Isn't it ironic that, if you include the consistent top performing public schools in those stats, they just don't change all that much. You're cherry picking the data to make private schools look bad, when it's not just a problem with private schools, but also well financed and/or well coached and supported public schools. A Greenwood or Berryville are never going to be competitive and choosing to group them in with Arky, Joe T., or Nashville just to inflate your numbers, is being intellectually dishonest.
[/quote
Wrong again, 60% of football playing private schools played in the state championship. The ratio of public school to private school in football is 24 to 1. The ratio of public school to private school in state championship games is 4 to 1. Your an absolute moron if you think that data doesn't scream unfair playing field.
While we are throwing out accusations, you are a private school person and have a bias on this topic. You can say I'm cherry picking all you want to, but it's obvious you are the one doing so.
And, if you want to expand your perspective on this topic, look on a national level. The number of states separating private schools from public schools grows each year. Private schools have always dominated the national rankings. It's not just an Arkansas problem.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 21, 2020, 07:59:15 am
Quote from: tmdowell on December 21, 2020, 02:07:45 am
Your data is irrelevant because 75% of public schools will never play in a state championship either. If you went back and compared the public schools who consistently compete at a state championship level to those who don't, you'll find almost the same stats. Isn't it ironic that, if you include the consistent top performing public schools in those stats, they just don't change all that much. You're cherry picking the data to make private schools look bad, when it's not just a problem with private schools, but also well financed and/or well coached and supported public schools. A Greenwood or Berryville are never going to be competitive and choosing to group them in with Arky, Joe T., or Nashville just to inflate your numbers, is being intellectually dishonest.
[/quote
Wrong again, 60% of football playing private schools played in the state championship. The ratio of public school to private school in football is 24 to 1. The ratio of public school to private school in state championship games is 4 to 1. Your an absolute moron if you think that data doesn't scream unfair playing field.
While we are throwing out accusations, you are a private school person and have a bias on this topic. You can say I'm cherry picking all you want to, but it's obvious you are the one doing so.
My last post on the subject... see you all next year.
Public schools:
LR Central 30
Pine Bluff 23
FS Northside 14
Greenwood 9
El Dorado 9
Barton 8
Rison 8
Junction city 7
Stuttgart 7
Blytheville 7
McGehee 7
FS Southside 6
Warren 5
North Little Rock 5
Nashville 5
Fayetteville 5
Prescott 5
Bentonville 5
Out of 388 public high schools, 18 of them have won 164 state championships in football, while 300 of them have never won one...
This is not parity, Adding private schools to the mix, does not change the numbers much at all.
Math lesson over.
See you next year.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 21, 2020, 08:40:31 am
My last post on the subject... see you all next year.
Public schools:
LR Central 30
Pine Bluff 23
FS Northside 14
Greenwood 9
El Dorado 9
Barton 8
Rison 8
Junction city 7
Stuttgart 7
Blytheville 7
McGehee 7
FS Southside 6
Warren 5
North Little Rock 5
Nashville 5
Fayetteville 5
Prescott 5
Bentonville 5
Out of 388 public high schools, 18 of them have won 164 state championships in football, while 300 of them have never won one...
This is not parity, Adding private schools to the mix, does not change the numbers much at all.
Math lesson over.
See you next year.
Nice try again. I see why you decided to post and then run and hide. First, your numbers are false. I could stop there but won't. 2, those schools have also been playing football much longer so your numbers are scewed. Imagine had they achieved those numbers in a much smaller time frame like many of your private schools. 3, those schools aren't winning state titles while playing above their enrollment like private schools. 4, when was the last time Barton, LR Central, FS Southside, FS Northside, Blytheville, won a state title? Perhaps those issues have been addressed? I could go on and on but you won't read it.
Quote from: mossyoakmilitary on December 19, 2020, 07:23:02 pm
I don't care what classification you are, no private school should be allowed in a public school state playoff. Don't chime in because I don't care about your opinion. I'm entitled to my own opinion. Private schools can play public schools during the regular season but come playoff time it should only be public vs public and private vs private.....PERIOD.
Private schools are allowed to recruit where public schools cannot. This crap is getting old. If AAA cannot figure out a way to get this straight, they all need to be replaced with competent individuals that can.
5A and 4A won the championship and 3A will more than likely win the championship. Screw those elite pompous A-Holes who think they are better than everybody else. Send your kids to a public school and see if they get the laying time. Nope it won't happen. Those coaches will laugh your kids out of the school.
So you can have the right to your own opinion but we can't chime in with ours? Sounds like a liberal Democrat...
I can see the private school division now...
Baptist Prep
CAC
Conway Christian
Harding Academy
LR Catholic
LR Christian
Pulaski Academy
Shiloh Christian
Playoffs this year probably would be
-Catholic vs PA
-Shiloh Christian vs LR Christian
In actuality, those would be some decent semifinal matchups.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 21, 2020, 08:40:31 am
My last post on the subject... see you all next year.
Public schools:
LR Central 30
Pine Bluff 23
FS Northside 14
Greenwood 9
El Dorado 9
Barton 8
Rison 8
Junction city 7
Stuttgart 7
Blytheville 7
McGehee 7
FS Southside 6
Warren 5
North Little Rock 5
Nashville 5
Fayetteville 5
Prescott 5
Bentonville 5
Out of 388 public high schools, 18 of them have won 164 state championships in football, while 300 of them have never won one...
This is not parity, Adding private schools to the mix, does not change the numbers much at all.
Math lesson over.
See you next year.
Most state titles since the 70s:
Greenwood - 10
Pulaski Academy- 9Barton - 8
Shiloh Christian- 8
Harding Academy- 8 LR Central - 7
Junction City -7
FS Southside- 7
Rison 7
Pine Bluff- 6
McGehee- 6
Also there's only 193 public schools playing football, not 300+. Not every public high school has football....You tried it though, bless your heart lol.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 21, 2020, 09:15:39 am
I can see the private school division now...
Baptist Prep
CAC
Conway Christian
Harding Academy
LR Catholic
LR Christian
Pulaski Academy
Shiloh Christian
Playoffs this year probably would be
-Catholic vs PA
-Shiloh Christian vs LR Christian
In actuality, those would be some decent semifinal matchups.
Nothing wrong with that picture. I agree, the playoff picture would be interesting.
Quote from: Lanny on December 21, 2020, 07:31:59 am
I have allowed this post for civil discussion but I see some of you can't have a civil discussion. Zero tolerance or you and this thread is gone
Lanny, thanks for your concern. Perhaps the "civil posters" can tolerate the "uncivil protesters." Sticks and stones....
After reading this thread I now realize where after the last decades I thought we lost a Championship game due to just making a couple more mistakes than our opponent I now realize that is not the case. We were just a bunch of kids from a border town who 90+% of us worked all summer until 2 a days started and our off season consisted of going to a weight room about a dozen times that was this ole dilapidated thing above the bleachers in an archaic gym. Our opponent probably never had to work at all and practiced Football year around and to top it off War Memorial was even their Home field. I guess based on this we were ripped off.......how about we just go back to classifications like the old days and quit letting teams in the playoffs with losing records and let the Wins and Losses fall where they do. I hate to be the bearer of some Truth, but there are a number of Teams that will Never win a State Championship regardless if Private Schools play or not.....This whole Shiloh thing, well here are some more just Truth's about Benton/Washington Counties schools about 80% are very good Academically. If I have a Son/Daughter who has some Athletic ability I have multiple options on which school they could attend that will give them a very good opportunity to win a State Title before they graduate. The only option where I actually pay out of pocket is Shiloh. Now this may be different than other parts of the state but it is what it is in NWA.
Quote from: tmdowell on December 21, 2020, 02:12:45 am
Wrong, academic standards are measured by standardized tests, not by curricula. How you teach shouldn't affect the students ability to comprehend the same tests. If public schools aren't teaching deductive reasoning ability, that's the fault of the public school, not the private school. It's as simple as using the same curriculum, if someone is preventing this, perhaps that should be addressed with the local school board or the legislature. Instead of punishing private schools, maybe, you should work to improve public schools.
Man... you sound very out of touch with reality. We'll just agree to disagree. I don't think it's a punishment by making private schools compete against other private school for a private school state title either. Unless other private schools think it will be same as what 5A sees with 2 schools always playing for the title.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 21, 2020, 09:27:19 am
Most state titles since the 70s:
Greenwood - 10
Pulaski Academy- 9
Barton - 8
Shiloh Christian- 8
Harding Academy- 8
LR Central - 7
Junction City -7
FS Southside- 7
Rison 7
Pine Bluff- 6
McGehee- 6
Also there's only 193 public schools playing football, not 300+. Not every public high school has football....You tried it though, bless your heart lol.
😂😂 Facts > (vs) what I want to be true!
Quote from: JacketFan on December 20, 2020, 09:23:00 pm
A lot of people don't understand school choice. AW said it, it all comes down to race balance. What I mean is this, a white kid transferring into a school with a predominantly black enrollment would be accepted to try to equal the numbers out. A white kid transferring into a school with a predominantly white enrollment does not have to be accepted. It all depends on the situation. Public schools also have to accept the state forcing the annexation of schools into your district.
Perfectly said! I'm sure not many understand the Deseg lawsuit that PCSD ended a few years back.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 21, 2020, 09:15:39 am
I can see the private school division now...
Baptist Prep
CAC
Conway Christian
Harding Academy
LR Catholic
LR Christian
Pulaski Academy
Shiloh Christian
Playoffs this year probably would be
-Catholic vs PA
-Shiloh Christian vs LR Christian
In actuality, those would be some decent semifinal matchups.
It would've ended the same way it did in 5A. I'll say LRCA by 10 over SC and PA by 24 over CHS
Bottom line PA still wins titles. Lol
Someone stated on here this weekend that the private school they were involved with had 90% of the kids in some sort of extra curricular activity. I was asked to serve on a committee several years ago in McGehee to try and get more kids involved. We were at less than 50%. I don't think Harding Academy recruits. I can't say that about all other schools including some public ones. What I do think HA does is instill pride in their kids and the ones that should be playing but choose not to stand out instead of the ones making the commitment standing out. I think HA is McGehee in the 1960's and 70's. I blame society and not Harding Academy. I will not argue this because it is only my opinion.
I appreciate your opinion and your willingness to find a solution with McGehee.
Quote from: Wildcatter on December 21, 2020, 12:09:44 pm
I appreciate your opinion and your willingness to find a solution with McGehee.
Oh we didn't find a solution.
They should be separated. Mississippi has the MHSAA and the MAIS and it works just fine. High School football in Arkansas is getting similar to the College Football playoff in that the same names across the board are going to be there every single year.
This won't get much traction. It comes from a big supporter of a team whose season was ended by a private school two years in a row, and it doesn't align with the angry mob. Mob mentality is very strong right now.
Quote from: panther07 on December 21, 2020, 01:11:33 pm
This won't get much traction. It comes from a big supporter of a team whose season was ended by a private school two years in a row, and it doesn't align with the angry mob. Mob mentality is very strong right now.
Yes, and backed by evidence....uh oh.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 21, 2020, 01:13:05 pm
Yes, and backed by evidence....uh oh.
You really feel the need to be heard huh? You really really feel you're doing a service here. Appreciate your effort. It's commendable.
I don't completely disagree with your thoughts. Don't think it's as black and white as you do, but I see your side. Take that "uh oh" and direct it to somebody else. Don't use me as your pawn to validate whatever it is you need to validate.
Quote from: panther07 on December 21, 2020, 01:11:33 pm
This won't get much traction. It comes from a big supporter of a team whose season was ended by a private school two years in a row, and it doesn't align with the angry mob. Mob mentality is very strong right now.
The 4A and 5A interlopers are an annual ritual.
Except in those years when HA ends a season with 3,4 or 5 losses. 🤦♂️
Private schools in Arkansas didn't do themselves any favors this year. The best thing might be for them to chill out on the domination for the next 4-5 years.
If not, the yelling and gnashing of teeth will become increasingly magnified.
Quote from: Leo Marvin on December 21, 2020, 02:35:39 pm
Private schools in Arkansas didn't do themselves any favors this year. The best thing might be for them to chill out on the domination for the next 4-5 years.
If not, the yelling and gnashing of teeth will become increasingly magnified.
You left out the weeping ;)
Quote from: Leo Marvin on December 21, 2020, 02:35:39 pm
Private schools in Arkansas didn't do themselves any favors this year. The best thing might be for them to chill out on the domination for the next 4-5 years.
If not, the yelling and gnashing of teeth will become increasingly magnified.
We thought staying out of the spotlight 2016-2018 would be sufficient. We've apparently come a long ways from Lamar when everybody thought the world was coming to an end.
Congrats to McGehee on an outstanding football season! Im from Prescott and give credit where credit is do.... with that said, dont put me in with them others from Prescott that post all that non sense. I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas!
Quote from: bobcatfan18 on December 21, 2020, 12:43:59 pm
They should be separated. Mississippi has the MHSAA and the MAIS and it works just fine. High School football in Arkansas is getting similar to the College Football playoff in that the same names across the board are going to be there every single year.
+1 for sure.
Quote from: bobcatfan18 on December 21, 2020, 12:43:59 pm
They should be separated. Mississippi has the MHSAA and the MAIS and it works just fine. High School football in Arkansas is getting similar to the College Football playoff in that the same names across the board are going to be there every single year.
So maybe would should just stop letting "the names" play for the title. Public and private. And allow the berryville's, heber's, cave city's, Dover's, Helena's and Haskell's play for the title every year. Make everyone happy. We will just have Shiloh, Warren, Arkadelphia, Nashville, Joe T, Stuttgart, etc sit it out for a few years.
Fair is only fair when fair benefits the complainers.
+1
Merged 12/21/20.
All classifications to this thread and it will be moved and kept in MMQB.
Quote from: Hogman2018 on December 07, 2020, 11:09:29 am
Something is wrong with you high school and colleges are totally different!
No doubt he is reaching big time with that comparison.
At least with this Public vs Private school debate, the ones for the split can give factual info to back their stance and reasoning, most of which can never be factually refuted and is just danced around or answered with opinionated claims.
The ones against the split or any competitive advantages only throw out the tired "Public schools hating again, get better, quit crying, stop punishing winners" self-righteous spill with no substance.
Aside from asking why do states like Arkansas have multipliers for private schools if there's "no competitive advantage", one of my biggest questions is why are private school supporters so against splitting Public and Private School sports when private schools in general were created to be independent from public schools in the first place? They want independence from public schools, i say fully give it to them.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on December 21, 2020, 07:01:25 pm
At least with this Public vs Private school debate, the ones for the split can give factual info to back their stance and reasoning, most of which can never be factually refuted and is just danced around or answered with opinionated claims.
The ones against the split or any competitive advantages only throw out the tired "Public schools hating again, get better, quit crying, stop punishing winners" self-righteous spill with no substance.
Aside from asking why do states like Arkansas have multipliers for private schools if there's "no competitive advantage", one of my biggest questions is why are private school supporters so against splitting Public and Private School sports when private schools in general were created to be independent from public schools in the first place? They want independence from public schools, i say fully give it to them.
You phrase the debate in your terms which is what a good debater does. That's admirable.
You get little response from 5A private school posters because we've debated the topic yearly for many years. You can go back and read this entire thread and see that. We get tired of the repetition.
You argue that private schools have advantages. Agreed. I think every 5A private school poster has admitted that. If I'm wrong please cite me to a post that proves I'm wrong.
The real issue is the remedy. You say separate the privates. Most folks who have posted on this thread favor success advancement. That's just a difference of opinion.
Differences of opinion is what makes this board fun.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2020, 07:55:18 pm
You phrase the debate in your terms which is what a good debater does. That's admirable.
You get little response from 5A private school posters because we've debated the topic yearly for many years. You can go back and read this entire thread and see that. We get tired of the repetition.
You argue that private schools have advantages. Agreed. I think every 5A private school poster has admitted that. If I'm wrong please cite me to a post that proves I'm wrong.
The real issue is the remedy. You say separate the privates. Most folks who have posted on this thread favor success advancement. That's just a difference of opinion.
Differences of opinion is what makes this board fun.
I agree with all the above. But I'll add to it. With school choice in play, the success advancement should not be limited to private schools. And when/if it goes poorly after advancing, you need to be allowed to move back down.
Quote from: panther07 on December 21, 2020, 08:06:21 pm
I agree with all the above. But I'll add to it. With school choice in play, the success advancement should not be limited to private schools. And when/if it goes poorly after advancing, you need to be allowed to move back down.
I would take a success advancement over nothing. I still think the day will come in that model where we have this conversation again. Still, action is needed at this point.
Split them up. The athletic programs of private schools that can and do deny admission because of religious beliefs, gender, sexual orientation, abilities and the like should not be the responsibility of the AAA, me, or any other taxpayer.
Quote from: Jabali on December 21, 2020, 09:12:57 pm
Split them up. The athletic programs of private schools that can and do deny admission because of religious beliefs, gender, sexual orientation, abilities and the like should not be the responsibility of the AAA, me, or any other taxpayer.
Here's the kicker... whoever you're referring to is paying taxes.
Quote from: panther07 on December 21, 2020, 09:27:12 pm
Here's the kicker... whoever you're referring to is paying taxes.
What kicker? Just because you pay tax you think that the rest of Arkansas taxpayers should furnish your private institution with poor villages to pummel? ::)
Quote from: Jabali on December 21, 2020, 09:12:57 pm
Split them up. The athletic programs of private schools that can and do deny admission because of religious beliefs, gender, sexual orientation, abilities and the like should not be the responsibility of the AAA, me, or any other taxpayer.
So tell us on which of those bases PA discriminates and the basis of your knowledge.
The truth is that PA does not discriminate on any of those bases. My daughter attended PA for 10 years. And there were happy folks, Christians, Muslims, blacks and Asians who attended with her.
I will engage in intelligent and fact based discussions. Your post does not meet that criteria.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2020, 07:55:18 pm
You phrase the debate in your terms which is what a good debater does. That's admirable.
You get little response from 5A private school posters because we've debated the topic yearly for many years. You can go back and read this entire thread and see that. We get tired of the repetition.
You argue that private schools have advantages. Agreed. I think every 5A private school poster has admitted that. If I'm wrong please cite me to a post that proves I'm wrong.
The real issue is the remedy. You say separate the privates. Most folks who have posted on this thread favor success advancement. That's just a difference of opinion.
Differences of opinion is what makes this board fun.
Success advancement would be better than nothing, but i don't feel that would solve the root issue. We've seen Pulaski Academy dog 7A teams and LR Christian just dogged LRCH this past year. Shiloh at one point could beat anyone in the entire state as a 4A team. PA went to Dallas Highland Park, a Texas Public School with 2000+ students and snapped their decade long home winning streak in dominating fashion. You have smaller out of state private schools dominating public powerhouses in Texas with over 3000 students. In California, St. John Bosco only has 800 students and is playing in the highest classification and still dominating.
That's why I'm personally for splitting Public and Private schools like Texas and Louisiana. Private schools dominate teams with enrollment numbers that would get public schools with the same enrollment murdered on the field. And like you referenced, its already acknowledged that private schools have advantages. Moving them up higher is going to slow them down at first, but eventually they are going to rebound by getting even better players in the area.
Seeing PA and LR Christian with Catholic and NLR would be pretty cool however, like in the 64 team Class 5A i created.
Quote from: PA Dad on December 21, 2020, 10:36:24 pm
So tell us on which of those bases PA discriminates and the basis of your knowledge.
The truth is that PA does not discriminate on any of those bases. My daughter attended PA for 10 years. And there were happy folks, Christians, Muslims, blacks and Asians who attended with her.
I will engage in intelligent and fact based discussions. Your post does not meet that criteria.
I said private schools can and do deny admission because of religious beliefs, gender, sexual orientation abilities and the like. Can any public school child attend PA? If not you or the Bubblemaster at PA will have to tell us both who or what they "discriminate" against. If they will let any public school child attend PA it might be time to explain to the Bubblemaster at PA what the definition of "private" is.
(Private: intended for or restricted to the use of a particular person, group, or class)
How about all the privates in the other sports, Basketball, baseball softball ect..... How would those conferences break down?
Quote from: AirWarren on December 21, 2020, 04:25:50 pm
So maybe would should just stop letting "the names" play for the title. Public and private. And allow the berryville's, heber's, cave city's, Dover's, Helena's and Haskell's play for the title every year. Make everyone happy. We will just have Shiloh, Warren, Arkadelphia, Nashville, Joe T, Stuttgart, etc sit it out for a few years.
Fair is only fair when fair benefits the complainers.
Heber should play for a title every year. All teams play for a title every year, but, just one wins.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 22, 2020, 08:48:03 am
Heber should play for a title every year. All teams play for a title every year, but, just one wins.
That sarcastic post is a pretty weak argument against the fact that this is a nationwide problem being brought up by people in every state.
You have no problems with schools playing in classifications based on enrollment but you have a problem with private schools being in a classification of their own based on the fact that they are like schools different than public schools. It sounds like you have something to lose if you ask me.
Your argument on this is not much different than a school saying they shouldn't have to move up a classification just because they are winning, when really it's because their enrollment changed. "It's not our fault we win, you should work harder". No, your enrollment changed, you belong in a different classification now. It's no different. Your a private school who enrolls kids on different standards than public schools. That's fine, we will just put you in your own classification so that it's level. Period.
If your defense on this issue has come to "you guys are whiners and let's give participation trophy's", you need a better argument.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 22, 2020, 09:50:20 am
That sarcastic post is a pretty weak argument against the fact that this is a nationwide problem being brought up by people in every state.
You have no problems with schools playing in classifications based on enrollment but you have a problem with private schools being in a classification of their own based on the fact that they are like schools different than public schools. It sounds like you have something to lose if you ask me.
Your argument on this is not much different than a school saying they shouldn't have to move up a classification just because they are winning, when really it's because their enrollment changed. "It's not our fault we win, you should work harder". No, your enrollment changed, you belong in a different classification now. It's no different. Your a private school who enrolls kids on different standards than public schools. That's fine, we will just put you in your own classification so that it's level. Period.
If your defense on this issue has come to "you guys are whiners and let's give participation trophy's", your getting desperate and don't have right/wrong on your mind.
No. It doesn't make it level. There are still classification issues amongst private schools. You just think it makes it more level for public schools. Baptist prep playing PA isn't level. And you can't say "neither is PA and hall" or whatever. Because that wasn't my argument. That's deflection.
Quote from: panther07 on December 22, 2020, 10:05:45 am
No. It doesn't make it level. There are still classification issues amongst private schools. You just think it makes it more level for public schools. Baptist prep playing PA isn't level. And you can't say "neither is PA and hall" or whatever. Because that wasn't my argument. That's deflection.
It's not deflection when you use an example to make a point, and I use an example to contradict the point. That's comparison on an issue. Baptist prep would get the hall treatment for a few years. I suppose it's okay for Hall to go through it but not Baptist Prep. Maybe Baptist prep needs to work harder and not be babies....I still can't believe you guys don't see your contradiction on that issue.
If you feel it's making things more level for public and not private, I would argue a few things. 1 private schools broke away, no one made them do that and no one made those kids go there. There are schools that don't offer football at all, at least private kids still get to play. 2. Let's see how long PA and LRC stay this dominant when it's a private schools only in the playoffs. Give it about 3 or 4 years and I'll bet you see them drop down more level to the rest simply because it will no longer be as appealing to go there for sports specifically. This happened in Louisiana and I believe would happen in Arkansas.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 22, 2020, 10:17:21 am
It's not deflection when you use an example to make a point, and I use an example to contradict the point. That's comparison on an issue. Baptist prep would get the hall treatment for a few years. I suppose it's okay for Hall to go through it but not Baptist Prep. Maybe Baptist prep needs to work harder and not be babies....I still can't believe you guys don't see your contradiction on that issue.
If you feel it's making things more level for public and not private, I would argue a few things. 1 private schools broke away, no one made them do that and no one made those kids go there. There are schools that don't offer football at all, at least private kids still get to play. 2. Let's see how long PA and LRC stay this dominant when it's a private schools only in the playoffs. Give it about 3 or 4 years and I'll bet you see them drop down more level to the rest simply because it will no longer be as appealing to go there for sports specifically. This happened in Louisiana and I believe would happen in Arkansas.
You struggle with this one. I didn't say it was fair for hall. I just said it also wouldn't be fair for BP. You claimed it would make it level. And it wouldn't. The rest of what you said is nothing but speculation and or opinion.
For the 100th time, stop lumping me in with the angry masses on the other side. You're so mad that you fail to read what all I've said. I don't know what the fair solution is at this point. Private schools have an advantage to the schools their same size. I think most of it is based on socioeconomics on many fronts. Same with public schools who dominate their peers.
Regardless, I don't feel I've contradicted myself in the slightest. You said level. It wouldn't be level. It just fits the agenda you've been screaming for a while now.
Quote from: panther07 on December 22, 2020, 10:34:42 am
You struggle with this one. I didn't say it was fair for hall. I just said it also wouldn't be fair for BP. You claimed it would make it level. And it wouldn't. The rest of what you said is nothing but speculation and or opinion.
For the 100th time, stop lumping me in with the angry masses on the other side. You're so mad that you fail to read what all I've said. I don't know what the fair solution is at this point. Private schools have an advantage to the schools their same size. I think most of it is based on socioeconomics on many fronts. Same with public schools who dominate their peers.
Regardless, I don't feel I've contradicted myself in the slightest. You said level. It wouldn't be level. It just fits the agenda you've been screaming for a while now.
I apologize for lumping you in. I really do. There are irrational people on both sides of this argument and I would much rather discuss this with you and PA Dad than many others.
I did not claim the last post to be anything other than my speculation. When I post data I will tell you it's data and ask for someone to refute it.
I am trying to argue it would be more level than it is now to separate, it will not be totally level. A split would effect a lot less schools than what the current model does and puts the problem back on those who created it.
Quote from: panther07 on December 22, 2020, 10:05:45 am
No. It doesn't make it level. There are still classification issues amongst private schools. You just think it makes it more level for public schools. Baptist prep playing PA isn't level. And you can't say "neither is PA and hall" or whatever. Because that wasn't my argument. That's deflection.
I don't "have a problem" with any school playing whomever it wants. It's freedom of choice, remember? If a public of private school wants to play a AAA or independent schedule, go for it. George Packard or Bernard Shaw might like your system, but, their theories have suffered quiet deaths in futility.
Quote from: MT Legend on December 12, 2020, 03:33:53 pm
Arkansas needs someone to come in and head just the public schools!...AAA is a joke and public schools need to see this and part ways with them!...🤷🏾♂️
You do realize the AAA is made up of the public schools? The public schools make the rules of the AAA.
Quote from: Cabotfan on December 22, 2020, 01:16:35 pm
You do realize the AAA is made up of the public schools? The public schools make the rules of the AAA.
Speaking of AAA, it sanctions the state Quiz Bowl. Since 2007, among divisions with private schools --- publics have won 46 of 65 titles. Maybe the privates need a separate division, since the publics dominate?
I have gone back and forth on this issue a lot. I do see arguments from both sides, and some are definitely valid. I have not read every page of this thread (nor do I intend to), but I did see the pages on the 4A board before it got merged and some of the one on the 5A board.
I think most of us, or at least most of us should, strive to beat the best. Being from Warren, we've had our ups and downs against private schools. I remember beating PA 46-8 (or something close to that) in 2005 and we beat them 14-4 in baseball one year. I also remember CAC beating us out of the playoffs in football at least once, if not more and PA beating us in the regular season for a number of years. An interesting stat to me, but this is all when we were in the old AAA, we were 11-4 in the state baseball tournament. All four losses were to private schools (PA by 1 run, CAC by one run (twice), and LRCA. We also beat Shiloh Christian, but that was the only win over a private school I think. If we didn't let the private schools play, maybe we'd have a few more state championships.
I just don't know how feasible it is to have a separate classification for private schools in Arkansas. Every year it would be PA, LRCA, LR Catholic, and Shiloh Christian fighting it out. Maybe Harding Academy sneaks up on one of them every once in while, and maybe CAC gets back to winning like it did in early 2000s. But still, there are the haves and have nots at that level too.
I think one thing we overlook about successful programs is coaching. The private schools that win have tremendous coaches, but yes I'd say the talent level at PA and LRCA has certainly skyrocketed. Shiloh is interesting though. I know they had some D1 guys in the past, but seems like most of them didn't work out for whatever reason, but they didn't seem to be oozing with D1 talent when I watched them last Saturday. However, they played so well. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just didn't see a lot of college talent on the field for SC. The QB might be really good, but he's only a sophomore. I'd take #44 on my team. The RB was good, probably a D2 player. Outside of that, I'm not sure. That was only one game though and some of the linemen may be college players, but I have a harder time evaluating that.
I tend to lean towards the let's just play the best and we have to find our way how to beat them. Private schools have advantages, and we do have the multiplier for that reason to acknowledge that. I'm definitely torn on it. I don't think PA or LRCA would pay for some of the kids on their teams to go to school there if they were more likely to help the quiz bowl team or marching band than run a 4.5 40 yard dash or throw a 90 MPH fastball or be 6'10. Maybe they do though. One thing I come back to is that it just isn't really fair to lump Harding Academy, Subiaco Academy, and others in with PA, LRCA, and Shiloh. Maybe if we get a few more private schools playing football and all we can reexamine it in a few years. I don't know how it would affect the other sports.
Public schools go through cycles, but certainly some public school programs with great head coaches seem to make those bad times don't seem as bad so coaching matters a lot in high school football. Now arguments can be made about facilities, size of coaching staffs, equipment, etc., but I guess I still lean towards playing them. Makes it sweeter when you beat them, but I might feel differently if Warren was in 5A and not 4A or PA and LRCA were still in 4A, haha.
Quote from: dc24 on December 22, 2020, 04:08:35 pm
I have gone back and forth on this issue a lot. I do see arguments from both sides, and some are definitely valid. I have not read every page of this thread (nor do I intend to), but I did see the pages on the 4A board before it got merged and some of the one on the 5A board.
I think most of us, or at least most of us should, strive to beat the best. Being from Warren, we've had our ups and downs against private schools. I remember beating PA 46-8 (or something close to that) in 2005 and we beat them 14-4 in baseball one year. I also remember CAC beating us out of the playoffs in football at least once, if not more and PA beating us in the regular season for a number of years. An interesting stat to me, but this is all when we were in the old AAA, we were 11-4 in the state baseball tournament. All four losses were to private schools (PA by 1 run, CAC by one run (twice), and LRCA. We also beat Shiloh Christian, but that was the only win over a private school I think. If we didn't let the private schools play, maybe we'd have a few more state championships.
I just don't know how feasible it is to have a separate classification for private schools in Arkansas. Every year it would be PA, LRCA, LR Catholic, and Shiloh Christian fighting it out. Maybe Harding Academy sneaks up on one of them every once in while, and maybe CAC gets back to winning like it did in early 2000s. But still, there are the haves and have nots at that level too.
I think one thing we overlook about successful programs is coaching. The private schools that win have tremendous coaches, but yes I'd say the talent level at PA and LRCA has certainly skyrocketed. Shiloh is interesting though. I know they had some D1 guys in the past, but seems like most of them didn't work out for whatever reason, but they didn't seem to be oozing with D1 talent when I watched them last Saturday. However, they played so well. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just didn't see a lot of college talent on the field for SC. The QB might be really good, but he's only a sophomore. I'd take #44 on my team. The RB was good, probably a D2 player. Outside of that, I'm not sure. That was only one game though and some of the linemen may be college players, but I have a harder time evaluating that.
I tend to lean towards the let's just play the best and we have to find our way how to beat them. Private schools have advantages, and we do have the multiplier for that reason to acknowledge that. I'm definitely torn on it. I don't think PA or LRCA would pay for some of the kids on their teams to go to school there if they were more likely to help the quiz bowl team or marching band than run a 4.5 40 yard dash or throw a 90 MPH fastball or be 6'10. Maybe they do though. One thing I come back to is that it just isn't really fair to lump Harding Academy, Subiaco Academy, and others in with PA, LRCA, and Shiloh. Maybe if we get a few more private schools playing football and all we can reexamine it in a few years. I don't know how it would affect the other sports.
Public schools go through cycles, but certainly some public school programs with great head coaches seem to make those bad times don't seem as bad so coaching matters a lot in high school football. Now arguments can be made about facilities, size of coaching staffs, equipment, etc., but I guess I still lean towards playing them. Makes it sweeter when you beat them, but I might feel differently if Warren was in 5A and not 4A or PA and LRCA were still in 4A, haha.
Very thought out and reasoned post.
+1
Quote from: PA Dad on December 22, 2020, 05:19:40 pm
Very thought out and reasoned post.
+1
Not bad, but your approval takes it to a new level lol.
Since this thread seems to be the airing of grievances, I'd like to wish everyone who's contributed a Happy Festivus.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on December 23, 2020, 09:14:26 am
Since this thread seems to be the airing of grievances, I'd like to wish everyone who's contributed a Happy Festivus.
For the rest of us!!
Like most, I think private schools do have advantages over the public schools. I would also agree that there simply isn't enough private schools to force them into their own league nor does the advantages produce the same results among the private schools. The biggest problem with the private school adjustment that I see (whether it's the old 1.35 or 1.75 multiplier or the current bump to the next classification) is that it's a one size fits all. The potential student base for schools like PA, CAC, SC, BP, etc located in the middle of a metropolitan area is going to different than say Conway Christian at the edge of the metropolitan area or Harding Academy located outside a metropolitan area in what's considered a micropolitan statistical area. This likely effects how selective schools can be when admitting students plus the actual income levels of the parents and thus ability to afford specialized training. Then you Subiaco Academy that's not only located in a rural county but is also a boarding school with a student body made up of people from across the country. I'm not sure how things work at Subi but would assume this makes off-season during the summer virtually impossible not to mention the lack of player cohesion or familiarity (compared to schools where players have played together with some or all of the team since elementary).
One idea I've had is to go back to a multiplier but use a formula to determine the multiplier for each school. Perhaps one that factors in the number of students within the school district and neighboring school districts (the potential student base), the number of private schools within the district and neighboring districts (the competition when attracting students), the percentage of private school students within the district attending that particular school (the portion of the socioeconomic advantaged athletes), and any other concrete factors.
A success or lack of success penalty/reward based on multiple cycles could be used on all schools as well. Say a school makes the finals in a sport five times within three cycles (6 years), the school would move up a classification for that sport. On the other hand, if a school wins less than 20% of games against schools within its classification during a three cycle stretch, it gets to move down a classification. I know that may seem a bit soft or everyone gets a trophy mentality but isn't part of the purpose of playing sports to learn life lessons of facing adversity and achieving success? It would seem winning all the time or losing all the time would prevent those lessons from being learned. I do realize that some just play sports for health, happiness, or to belong to something bigger than themselves.
Ahh. Well thought out middle ground. Refreshing.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 22, 2020, 01:43:12 pm
Speaking of AAA, it sanctions the state Quiz Bowl. Since 2007, among divisions with private schools --- publics have won 46 of 65 titles. Maybe the privates need a separate division, since the publics dominate?
46 of 65 is not dominating when 80-90% of the schools in Arkansas are public schools.
Quote from: panther07 on December 22, 2020, 10:05:45 am
No. It doesn't make it level. There are still classification issues amongst private schools. You just think it makes it more level for public schools. Baptist prep playing PA isn't level. And you can't say "neither is PA and hall" or whatever. Because that wasn't my argument. That's deflection.
Which is why removal is a better solution than separation. Once private schools are removed from the AAA then the private school classification problem if now longer our problem and we do not have to concern ourselves with it.
Quote from: phdefense on December 26, 2020, 07:58:21 pm
Which is why removal is a better solution than separation. Once private schools are removed from the AAA then the private school classification problem if now longer our problem and we do not have to concern ourselves with it.
Good luck
Quote from: phdefense on December 26, 2020, 07:58:21 pm
Which is why removal is a better solution than separation. Once private schools are removed from the AAA then the private school classification problem if now longer our problem and we do not have to concern ourselves with it.
"Removal is a better solution" sounds too similar to views of past political leaders.
Quote from: phdefense on December 26, 2020, 07:58:21 pm
Which is why removal is a better solution than separation. Once private schools are removed from the AAA then the private school classification problem if now longer our problem and we do not have to concern ourselves with it.
If you separate, the problem would effect a lot fewer schools than it does now. It's a problem that neither side can agree on a solution to, so this is the simplest way to minimize the damage. And I agree, it puts the problem back on those who created it.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 28, 2020, 06:48:10 pm
If you separate, the problem would effect a lot fewer schools than it does now. It's a problem that neither side can agree on a solution to, so this is the simplest way to minimize the damage. And I agree, it puts the problem back on those who created it.
What, exactly, is the problem again?
Quote from: HeberFan on December 29, 2020, 08:48:14 am
What, exactly, is the problem again?
That you keep posting idiotic things in a thread where people are trying to have a serious conversation/debate.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 29, 2020, 11:33:15 am
That you keep posting idiotic things in a thread where people are trying to have a serious conversation/debate.
The "problem" is a couple private schools are very good at football. Your "solution" is to not play. Sad.
Quote from: HeberFan on December 30, 2020, 04:43:02 pm
The "problem" is a couple private schools are very good at football. Your "solution" is to not play. Sad.
The problem is you make up your own facts to support your narrative. You say 2 private schools are good at football. Private schools are dominating across the country. 4 won state titles in this state alone and 2 were runner up. That's 60% of football playing private schools. The only argument you've made is that people should not be babies, and there aren't enough private schools which would be "unfair" to separate them from public schools because the same schools would dominate (the hypocrisy in this argument is still mind boggling). The facts are overwhelming against the private schools on this issue. More and more states are dealing with them. It will eventually happen here.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 30, 2020, 05:28:35 pm
The problem is you make up your own facts to support your narrative. You say 2 private schools are good at football. Private schools are dominating across the country. 4 won state titles in this state alone and 2 were runner up. That's 60% of football playing private schools. The only argument you've made is that people should not be babies, and there aren't enough private schools which would be "unfair" to separate them from public schools because the same schools would dominate (the hypocrisy in this argument is still mind boggling). The facts are overwhelming against the private schools on this issue. More and more states are dealing with them. It will eventually happen here.
"More and more states are dealing with them."
That's not a blanket statement. Technically, Arkansas already is. You just don't like what they've done. I don't think a separation is imminent.
Quote from: panther07 on December 30, 2020, 08:07:37 pm
"More and more states are dealing with them."
That's not a blanket statement. Technically, Arkansas already is. You just don't like what they've done. I don't think a separation is imminent.
There can be a difference in "not liking what they've done" and stating the obvious. The obvious being that the current model is flawed and isn't the best solution. I am fully aware that they have already moved private schools up in classification as an acknowledgement that there is something advantageous about their set-up. The fact that it's still a problem after that just proves that separating is the only long term solution. I believe it is imminent. How long the "money" can keep it away is another conversation.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on December 30, 2020, 08:55:32 pm
There can be a difference in "not liking what they've done" and stating the obvious. The obvious being that the current model is flawed and isn't the best solution. I am fully aware that they have already moved private schools up in classification as an acknowledgement that there is something advantageous about their set-up. The fact that it's still a problem after that just proves that separating is the only long term solution. I believe it is imminent. How long the "money" can keep it away is another conversation.
You want an outcome-based solution, so public and private schools win "their fair share" of titles. I think the best teams should win.
Quote from: dc24 on December 22, 2020, 04:08:35 pm
I have gone back and forth on this issue a lot. I do see arguments from both sides, and some are definitely valid. I have not read every page of this thread (nor do I intend to), but I did see the pages on the 4A board before it got merged and some of the one on the 5A board.
I think most of us, or at least most of us should, strive to beat the best. Being from Warren, we've had our ups and downs against private schools. I remember beating PA 46-8 (or something close to that) in 2005 and we beat them 14-4 in baseball one year. I also remember CAC beating us out of the playoffs in football at least once, if not more and PA beating us in the regular season for a number of years. An interesting stat to me, but this is all when we were in the old AAA, we were 11-4 in the state baseball tournament. All four losses were to private schools (PA by 1 run, CAC by one run (twice), and LRCA. We also beat Shiloh Christian, but that was the only win over a private school I think. If we didn't let the private schools play, maybe we'd have a few more state championships.
I just don't know how feasible it is to have a separate classification for private schools in Arkansas. Every year it would be PA, LRCA, LR Catholic, and Shiloh Christian fighting it out. Maybe Harding Academy sneaks up on one of them every once in while, and maybe CAC gets back to winning like it did in early 2000s. But still, there are the haves and have nots at that level too.
I think one thing we overlook about successful programs is coaching. The private schools that win have tremendous coaches, but yes I'd say the talent level at PA and LRCA has certainly skyrocketed. Shiloh is interesting though. I know they had some D1 guys in the past, but seems like most of them didn't work out for whatever reason, but they didn't seem to be oozing with D1 talent when I watched them last Saturday. However, they played so well. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just didn't see a lot of college talent on the field for SC. The QB might be really good, but he's only a sophomore. I'd take #44 on my team. The RB was good, probably a D2 player. Outside of that, I'm not sure. That was only one game though and some of the linemen may be college players, but I have a harder time evaluating that.
I tend to lean towards the let's just play the best and we have to find our way how to beat them. Private schools have advantages, and we do have the multiplier for that reason to acknowledge that. I'm definitely torn on it. I don't think PA or LRCA would pay for some of the kids on their teams to go to school there if they were more likely to help the quiz bowl team or marching band than run a 4.5 40 yard dash or throw a 90 MPH fastball or be 6'10. Maybe they do though. One thing I come back to is that it just isn't really fair to lump Harding Academy, Subiaco Academy, and others in with PA, LRCA, and Shiloh. Maybe if we get a few more private schools playing football and all we can reexamine it in a few years. I don't know how it would affect the other sports.
Public schools go through cycles, but certainly some public school programs with great head coaches seem to make those bad times don't seem as bad so coaching matters a lot in high school football. Now arguments can be made about facilities, size of coaching staffs, equipment, etc., but I guess I still lean towards playing them. Makes it sweeter when you beat them, but I might feel differently if Warren was in 5A and not 4A or PA and LRCA were still in 4A, haha.
I agree with PA Dad, well thought out and fair post.
I mentioned this a couple of years back, but I think one of the key areas that gets overlooked in the argument is the Why. IMO, this issue was created due to years of bad leadership in the LR public school system. Yes, it is getting better, but it pains me to see the likes of Central not competitive in football. Nobody wants to talk about why PA, LRCA, Bryant, Conway, NLR and Cabot are seeing growth and an influx of athletes. I think it's because those that can have left the LR public school system.
The point above regarding Shiloh is interesting. They are a great 4A program and do get some nice athletes, but Shiloh is not pulling the D1 talent from Harber, Fayetteville, Bentonville or West. It's because those 7A program all have great overall school systems.
This argument has little to do with Shiloh, HA or LRCA in my honest opinion, the succes of PA is what is driving the divide. It's hard to fault PA for building what they've built, they have all the same resources as the major 7A programs and GW, it's just very pronounced because they dominate their classification.
I don't know how to fix this overnight, but I think a resurgence of the major public schools in LR is a good start. I know they have some new leadership in the last few years and I'm pulling for them to succeed.
Quote from: HeberFan on January 04, 2021, 11:53:50 am
You want an outcome-based solution, so public and private schools win "their fair share" of titles. I think the best teams should win.
So you say I want an outcome based solution because I think private schools should play each other and they should do so because they don't have the same operating rules as a total school district that public schools have. You then said that you think the best team should win. Which of us wants an "outcome based solution" and which of us wants equality? I sincerely doubt you know what "outcome based solution" even means.
By your logic we shouldn't have classifications and there should only be one state champion.
Quote from: Razorback Red on January 04, 2021, 08:38:35 pm
I agree with PA Dad, well thought out and fair post.
I mentioned this a couple of years back, but I think one of the key areas that gets overlooked in the argument is the Why. IMO, this issue was created due to years of bad leadership in the LR public school system. Yes, it is getting better, but it pains me to see the likes of Central not competitive in football. Nobody wants to talk about why PA, LRCA, Bryant, Conway, NLR and Cabot are seeing growth and an influx of athletes. I think it's because those that can have left the LR public school system.
The point above regarding Shiloh is interesting. They are a great 4A program and do get some nice athletes, but Shiloh is not pulling the D1 talent from Harber, Fayetteville, Bentonville or West. It's because those 7A program all have great overall school systems.
This argument has little to do with Shiloh, HA or LRCA in my honest opinion, the succes of PA is what is driving the divide. It's hard to fault PA for building what they've built, they have all the same resources as the major 7A programs and GW, it's just very pronounced because they dominate their classification.
I don't know how to fix this overnight, but I think a resurgence of the major public schools in LR is a good start. I know they have some new leadership in the last few years and I'm pulling for them to succeed.
I have to agree with all that. I think somewhere around 90% of it is about PA currently. Then you throw in how successful LRCA has been in 5A you have a whole classification up in arms. It hasn't been as pronounced recently in 4A. Mainly because this was Shiloh's first title in 10 years or so, and CAC hasn't been really a state title contender in a number of years. But Shiloh winning this year has brought it up somewhat and Harding Academy in 3A was mentioned as well.
However, when I was in high school (03-06), PA and CAC were in what was the AAA classification at that time, and LRCA was towards the end, but I don't really remember them being good at anything until my senior year and they knocked us out of the state baseball tournament. However, Shiloh was hated on this board, much more so than PA or CAC I'd say just because they had quite a few obnoxious posters and they were coming off dominating the old AA classification. They were accused of recruiting guys like Kiehl Frazier and they had a bunch of guys that got some D1 looks, but I don't remember too many of them being very successful in college. They started to win in 4A though when they first moved up. I think that's another good point. Maybe back then they did pull a handful of D1 or D2 caliber athletes from NWA public schools before they really took off in growth. Now, I'm assuming they get a few cast-offs from those schools, but like you said those high schools are solid school districts so maybe more people are just staying in them. And splitting the schools that they have allow for more players to stay and get playing time at whichever one they are at.
I think you're right though, the public schools improving in LR would probably help even the playing field somewhat and keep some of those athletes away that end up at PA. I still think PA will always be competitive and they are state title contender with Kelley as HC. However, if Coach Kelley ever leaves I wonder what would happen. Even the wrong hire at PA could lower them back down to earth for a few years.
Quote from: dc24 on January 05, 2021, 12:00:04 pm
I have to agree with all that. I think somewhere around 90% of it is about PA currently. Then you throw in how successful LRCA has been in 5A you have a whole classification up in arms. It hasn't been as pronounced recently in 4A. Mainly because this was Shiloh's first title in 10 years or so, and CAC hasn't been really a state title contender in a number of years. But Shiloh winning this year has brought it up somewhat and Harding Academy in 3A was mentioned as well.
However, when I was in high school (03-06), PA and CAC were in what was the AAA classification at that time, and LRCA was towards the end, but I don't really remember them being good at anything until my senior year and they knocked us out of the state baseball tournament. However, Shiloh was hated on this board, much more so than PA or CAC I'd say just because they had quite a few obnoxious posters and they were coming off dominating the old AA classification. They were accused of recruiting guys like Kiehl Frazier and they had a bunch of guys that got some D1 looks, but I don't remember too many of them being very successful in college. They started to win in 4A though when they first moved up. I think that's another good point. Maybe back then they did pull a handful of D1 or D2 caliber athletes from NWA public schools before they really took off in growth. Now, I'm assuming they get a few cast-offs from those schools, but like you said those high schools are solid school districts so maybe more people are just staying in them. And splitting the schools that they have allow for more players to stay and get playing time at whichever one they are at.
I think you're right though, the public schools improving in LR would probably help even the playing field somewhat and keep some of those athletes away that end up at PA. I still think PA will always be competitive and they are state title contender with Kelley as HC. However, if Coach Kelley ever leaves I wonder what would happen. Even the wrong hire at PA could lower them back down to earth for a few years.
90% of it isn't about PA. It's a nationwide issue.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on January 05, 2021, 09:33:08 pm
90% of it isn't about PA. It's a nationwide issue.
I agree it is a nationwide issue but in Arkansas it's probably 80% PA.
It's not just a PA issue. Remember Shiloh Christian and Harding Academy both have 8 rings. 1 less than PA. Before PA took off, it was Shiloh and HA putting in work. Then LRCA and CAC has had their few good seasons and state titles. Episcopal reached semis twice.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on January 07, 2021, 09:16:57 am
It's not just a PA issue. Remember Shiloh Christian and Harding Academy both have 8 rings. 1 less than PA. Before PA took off, it was Shiloh and HA putting in work. Then LRCA and CAC has had their few good seasons and state titles. Episcopal reached semis twice.
HA won their first title in the early 70's.... it's not the same thing. What you're saying in the second half of this paragraph is that just being a good team is an issue. "Yeah cac was good that one time when they happened to have a few really good players. They're a problem too"
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on January 05, 2021, 09:33:08 pm
90% of it isn't about PA. It's a nationwide issue.
Definitely wasn't referring to anything nationwide. I have little knowledge of what other states do aside from a few of the surrounding ones.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on January 07, 2021, 09:16:57 am
It's not just a PA issue. Remember Shiloh Christian and Harding Academy both have 8 rings. 1 less than PA. Before PA took off, it was Shiloh and HA putting in work. Then LRCA and CAC has had their few good seasons and state titles. Episcopal reached semis twice.
I definitely think Shiloh's success plays a role, but I know, at least on FF, back when I first got on here around 2004 that a lot of people didn't like Shiloh Christian because of their posters on here. They were definitely obnoxious and gave off that "we are better than you and you're going to hear about it" vibe. They also pumped up a lot of their players and several of their guys got D1 scholarships who never really worked out for one reason or another. I don't know if any of those guys post on here anymore or what, but I think most people on here would have hated whatever team those guys represented at the time. The fact it was a private school just made it an easier punching bag.
That said, most of this current argument is PA. They've won it 6 of the last 7 years. Although, according to their website, they haven't won in baseball since 2013 and boys basketball since 2003 so they aren't running through those sports like they are in football. I think the fact that LRCA has been so good over most of this time frame and is the only other team to win one, and they were the runner up in several years, is also a huge factor. I honestly don't venture to many of the other boards aside from the 4A ones, but I noticed a lot of this thread came from the 5A board and I believe the title of the thread was something like, "Why do we even try?" That being in reference to why do public schools even try in 5A.
Shiloh hadn't won a title in 10 years until this year and there was only a little grumbling about them being a private school. I don't know much about Harding Academy, but seems like their ebb and flow is a little more like a public school. Looks like they won state championships in 1976, 1977, 1983, 2002, 2012, 2019, and 2020. They are usually solid and in play after Thanksgiving, but none of these other schools are really even close to the run PA is on currently.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on January 04, 2021, 11:11:47 pm
So you say I want an outcome based solution because I think private schools should play each other and they should do so because they don't have the same operating rules as a total school district that public schools have. You then said that you think the best team should win. Which of us wants an "outcome based solution" and which of us wants equality? I sincerely doubt you know what "outcome based solution" even means.
By your logic we shouldn't have classifications and there should only be one state champion.
Football is not about equality, each time tries to beat the other. One state champ could be done. They used to do that in Arkansas high school basketball.
Quote from: panther07 on January 07, 2021, 09:52:44 am
HA won their first title in the early 70's.... it's not the same thing. What you're saying in the second half of this paragraph is that just being a good team is an issue. "Yeah cac was good that one time when they happened to have a few really good players. They're a problem too"
Thats just how you are perceiving it. LRCA and CAC were brought up because there's only 8 private schools that play football and they make up the 5 that have won titles. Being a good team isn't the issue. How/why they are good is the issue. Nobody complains about greenwood or junction city winning 7-10 rings in 20 years. Private Schools simply have advantages that public schools don't, which is being seen all across the nation.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on January 07, 2021, 04:30:19 pm
Thats just how you are perceiving it. LRCA and CAC were brought up because there's only 8 private schools that play football and they make up the 5 that have won titles. Being a good team isn't the issue. How/why they are good is the issue. Nobody complains about greenwood or junction city winning 7-10 rings in 20 years. Private Schools simply have advantages that public schools don't, which is being seen all across the nation.
People have been accusing junction city of cheating in 2a for 2 decades now.... Most folks seem to have a huge problem with the Louisiana Charter school that exists at Junction City.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on January 07, 2021, 04:30:19 pm
Thats just how you are perceiving it. LRCA and CAC were brought up because there's only 8 private schools that play football and they make up the 5 that have won titles. Being a good team isn't the issue. How/why they are good is the issue. Nobody complains about greenwood or junction city winning 7-10 rings in 20 years. Private Schools simply have advantages that public schools don't, which is being seen all across the nation.
So a private school being good is simply because they're private?
Quote from: panther07 on January 08, 2021, 11:44:30 am
So a private school being good is simply because they're private?
Seems the thinking of some. Want a ring? Go private!
Quote from: HorseFeathers on January 07, 2021, 07:30:42 pm
People have been accusing junction city of cheating in 2a for 2 decades now.... Most folks seem to have a huge problem with the Louisiana Charter school that exists at Junction City.
If you win, you're cheating. People can't stand a winner.
Quote from: panther07 on January 08, 2021, 01:22:17 pm
If you win, you're cheating. People can't stand a winner.
Dang right
Quote from: panther07 on January 08, 2021, 11:44:30 am
So a private school being good is simply because they're private?
Nooo, haven't you read his posts? :) Due to the AAA's previous measures to even the playing field, there exists an imaginary advantage. An advantage that can't be overcome by any means but complete separation!!! Private religious schools wanted to separate for religious freedom/control but this fellow thinks it was for the bigger district boundaries and state titles.
Many of these private schools were not started for religious freedom, but that is another story and another topic.
Anyways Dc24 is onto something. It just does not take throwing money into a program and alleged recruiting to make a program successful. You also have to have a coach that knows what he is doing.
Quote from: panther07 on January 08, 2021, 01:22:17 pm
If you win, you're cheating. People can't stand a winner.
When those types of posts are the best you can do, your argument is very weak.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on January 08, 2021, 05:59:33 pm
When those types of posts are the best you can do, your argument is very weak.
Okay. Let me help you connect the dots. You're relatively new on here. When junction was running rampant, they were accused of cheating for the longest time. Nashville was too. This board ran wild with those accusations. You like to pin me down with assumptions. Makes you look silly. But keep on, if you please.
Quote from: panther07 on January 08, 2021, 07:39:32 pm
Okay. Let me help you connect the dots. You're relatively new on here. When junction was running rampant, they were accused of cheating for the longest time. Nashville was too. This board ran wild with those accusations. You like to pin me down with assumptions. Makes you look silly. But keep on, if you please.
What does Nashville and Junction have to do with the nationwide private school athletics issue? And please tell me how that is an assumption. Man you are desperate.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on January 08, 2021, 07:49:45 pm
What does Nashville and Junction have to do with the nationwide private school athletics issue? And please tell me how that is an assumption. Man you are desperate.
Me? What have you posted on this board in the last month besides this topic? 95 of your last 100 posts have been on this very subject. That's desperation. "Hear me! I'm smart!"
And you must not be reading every post. It was brought up by someone else about junction city and the cheating accusations directed towards them.
The assumption was that I was defending HA or any private school by making that statement.
Quote from: panther07 on January 08, 2021, 08:08:46 pm
Me? What have you posted on this board in the last month besides this topic? 95 of your last 100 posts have been on this very subject. That's desperation. "Hear me! I'm smart!"
And you must not be reading every post. It was brought up by someone else about junction city and the cheating accusations directed towards them.
The assumption was that I was defending HA or any private school by making that statement.
You went back and read my posts and counted how many were on here....wow. Sorry, I should have called you bored.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on January 08, 2021, 08:49:48 pm
You went back and read my posts and counted how many were on here....wow. Sorry, I should have called you bored.
Talk about a weak argument..
Ill save my opinion on the topic, but some food for thought.
Lets play pretend for a moment. ill use players/teams strictly as an example.
Lets say you "separaters" finally got your way this past year. at the end of the 19-20 season, AAA boots the private schools. Coach Fleming up at Rivercrest is licking his chops cause he knows hes sitting on a dandy of a squad. With Shiloh out of the way, hes already clearing out a spot for that shiny new Chip in the trophy case.
Now, completely unregulated by AAA, PA can do whaattteeeveeerrrrr they want. One sunny day right before two a days kick off, the phones ring in the houses of K. Turner and K. Scott. there happens to be PA boosters on the other end. They convince both families to move to LR and bring these two fine young gentlemen to play ball for them. LR is far superior to Wilson in every way imaginable. Plus, all of these "advantages" that private schools have to offer as well as a better education for the two. Its not real hard to sale both families on the move. Turner put Flemings title hopes in his cleats and is gone. Without those two, Rivercrest is .500 (at best)
Shiloh starts cherry picking NWA. Bryant has been on a tear, but PA/LRC starts picking off studs from the JR High squad and the talent dries up. The unregulated private schools cherry pick all the talent all over the state. Couple more private schools pop up around the state cause they see the revenue being generated by these powerhouses. And it isnt just football either. Basketball at these schools fall in line. baseball, soccer, track.. you name it.
We have all seen "Nationally Ranked" high school football on TV. Same with basketball.
I read in some of the former posts about tiny private schools in other states with enrollment of a couple hundred dominating schools with enrollments of a couple thousand. How do you think they accomplish this? In a scenario like i just described.
Im sure there are several Razorback fans in this forum. Does the name Moses Moody mean anything to yall?
Do the numbers/math/title distribution etc etc laid out in the previous posts indicate that there are advantages for the private schools? sure. Is forcing them to play up enough? I dont know, but its a start. Is there a fix-all-end-all. I doubt it. But even the private schools ebb and flow like the public ones. I remember the early 2000s when Shiloh was untouchable. This was their first title in what, ten years? PA is running wild... right now. Has recruiting gone on? yes. Is it as rampant as some of you believe? I highly doubt it. Why is it that when a public school goes 15-0, or repeats, or 3-peats, we dont hear anything about that. But when a private school does it, its "recruiting, advantages, facilities, money etc?" Im not advocating for either side. I have an opinion, and just like everyone elses here, it doesnt matter.
You "separaters" got what you wanted, or at least thought that was what you wanted. That is, until the stud that was going to lead you to the promised land packs up and jumps ship.
This situation has been a topic for debate for years. Im not so sure the AAA will do anything. Maybe they do. But there is no way to satisfy everyone.
Im just glad we got to play ball at all this year.
Just some food for thought. Yall have a great day.
Anyone want to talk about House Bill 1097?
Quote from: teh29 on January 09, 2021, 12:46:28 am
Ill save my opinion on the topic, but some food for thought.
Lets play pretend for a moment. ill use players/teams strictly as an example.
Lets say you "separaters" finally got your way this past year. at the end of the 19-20 season, AAA boots the private schools. Coach Fleming up at Rivercrest is licking his chops cause he knows hes sitting on a dandy of a squad. With Shiloh out of the way, hes already clearing out a spot for that shiny new Chip in the trophy case.
Now, completely unregulated by AAA, PA can do whaattteeeveeerrrrr they want. One sunny day right before two a days kick off, the phones ring in the houses of K. Turner and K. Scott. there happens to be PA boosters on the other end. They convince both families to move to LR and bring these two fine young gentlemen to play ball for them. LR is far superior to Wilson in every way imaginable. Plus, all of these "advantages" that private schools have to offer as well as a better education for the two. Its not real hard to sale both families on the move. Turner put Flemings title hopes in his cleats and is gone. Without those two, Rivercrest is .500 (at best)
Shiloh starts cherry picking NWA. Bryant has been on a tear, but PA/LRC starts picking off studs from the JR High squad and the talent dries up. The unregulated private schools cherry pick all the talent all over the state. Couple more private schools pop up around the state cause they see the revenue being generated by these powerhouses. And it isnt just football either. Basketball at these schools fall in line. baseball, soccer, track.. you name it.
We have all seen "Nationally Ranked" high school football on TV. Same with basketball.
I read in some of the former posts about tiny private schools in other states with enrollment of a couple hundred dominating schools with enrollments of a couple thousand. How do you think they accomplish this? In a scenario like i just described.
Im sure there are several Razorback fans in this forum. Does the name Moses Moody mean anything to yall?
Do the numbers/math/title distribution etc etc laid out in the previous posts indicate that there are advantages for the private schools? sure. Is forcing them to play up enough? I dont know, but its a start. Is there a fix-all-end-all. I doubt it. But even the private schools ebb and flow like the public ones. I remember the early 2000s when Shiloh was untouchable. This was their first title in what, ten years? PA is running wild... right now. Has recruiting gone on? yes. Is it as rampant as some of you believe? I highly doubt it. Why is it that when a public school goes 15-0, or repeats, or 3-peats, we dont hear anything about that. But when a private school does it, its "recruiting, advantages, facilities, money etc?" Im not advocating for either side. I have an opinion, and just like everyone elses here, it doesnt matter.
You "separaters" got what you wanted, or at least thought that was what you wanted. That is, until the stud that was going to lead you to the promised land packs up and jumps ship.
This situation has been a topic for debate for years. Im not so sure the AAA will do anything. Maybe they do. But there is no way to satisfy everyone.
Im just glad we got to play ball at all this year.
Just some food for thought. Yall have a great day.
The reply to this bluff has always been the same. If the privates in AR thought they would have an advantage doing this they already would have on their own accord.
Quote from: teh29 on January 09, 2021, 12:46:28 am
Ill save my opinion on the topic, but some food for thought.
Lets play pretend for a moment. ill use players/teams strictly as an example.
Lets say you "separaters" finally got your way this past year. at the end of the 19-20 season, AAA boots the private schools. Coach Fleming up at Rivercrest is licking his chops cause he knows hes sitting on a dandy of a squad. With Shiloh out of the way, hes already clearing out a spot for that shiny new Chip in the trophy case.
Now, completely unregulated by AAA, PA can do whaattteeeveeerrrrr they want. One sunny day right before two a days kick off, the phones ring in the houses of K. Turner and K. Scott. there happens to be PA boosters on the other end. They convince both families to move to LR and bring these two fine young gentlemen to play ball for them. LR is far superior to Wilson in every way imaginable. Plus, all of these "advantages" that private schools have to offer as well as a better education for the two. Its not real hard to sale both families on the move. Turner put Flemings title hopes in his cleats and is gone. Without those two, Rivercrest is .500 (at best)
Shiloh starts cherry picking NWA. Bryant has been on a tear, but PA/LRC starts picking off studs from the JR High squad and the talent dries up. The unregulated private schools cherry pick all the talent all over the state. Couple more private schools pop up around the state cause they see the revenue being generated by these powerhouses. And it isnt just football either. Basketball at these schools fall in line. baseball, soccer, track.. you name it.
We have all seen "Nationally Ranked" high school football on TV. Same with basketball.
I read in some of the former posts about tiny private schools in other states with enrollment of a couple hundred dominating schools with enrollments of a couple thousand. How do you think they accomplish this? In a scenario like i just described.
Im sure there are several Razorback fans in this forum. Does the name Moses Moody mean anything to yall?
Do the numbers/math/title distribution etc etc laid out in the previous posts indicate that there are advantages for the private schools? sure. Is forcing them to play up enough? I dont know, but its a start. Is there a fix-all-end-all. I doubt it. But even the private schools ebb and flow like the public ones. I remember the early 2000s when Shiloh was untouchable. This was their first title in what, ten years? PA is running wild... right now. Has recruiting gone on? yes. Is it as rampant as some of you believe? I highly doubt it. Why is it that when a public school goes 15-0, or repeats, or 3-peats, we dont hear anything about that. But when a private school does it, its "recruiting, advantages, facilities, money etc?" Im not advocating for either side. I have an opinion, and just like everyone elses here, it doesnt matter.
You "separaters" got what you wanted, or at least thought that was what you wanted. That is, until the stud that was going to lead you to the promised land packs up and jumps ship.
This situation has been a topic for debate for years. Im not so sure the AAA will do anything. Maybe they do. But there is no way to satisfy everyone.
Im just glad we got to play ball at all this year.
Just some food for thought. Yall have a great day.
Good post in my opinion. You mention a few times that there really is no action that would fix this completely. Even moving the private schools up in classification only does so much as it seems you are claiming. So when no one has a plan, the right thing becomes to separate. It has nothing to do with winning and losing in my opinion. It's putting schools that are alike in conferences just like we do with classifications. The biased private school people have no argument against this other than to just say I don't like that they are winning. That has nothing to do with it. A 2A is different than a 7A. A private school is different than a public school. Put them in their own classifications and move on. It may take away the gravy train some of these private schools enjoy, but that's life. Sometimes life gives you things you don't like, you put on your big boy pants and move on. There are schools that don't offer football at all. Ask the kids at those schools if they think it would be unfair to the private school kids to have to play in a classification with each other.
Quote from: phdefense on January 09, 2021, 01:31:32 am
Anyone want to talk about House Bill 1097?
I can't swear to it, but it's at least the 3rd time in the past 20 years this has hit the legislature.
I'm mixed on it. On one hand, I don't want any more gov't involved that is necessary. Over regulations kill things. But also I think the AAA needs more oversight.
To the matter at hand, I think if there is to be a split off of the private schools than that should be started but the schools, debated by the schools and voted on by the schools. If the majority vote for change, then it's done. It's just not he place for some politicians.
I agree with BG. Also though I think for tge first time the momentum is shifting quickly for changes. The reason its never happened is the 75 to 85 non football schools that it doesn't effect.
Quote from: phdefense on January 09, 2021, 01:31:32 am
Anyone want to talk about House Bill 1097?
Sponsored by a Beebe football coach...
Quote from: panther07 on January 08, 2021, 11:44:30 am
So a private school being good is simply because they're private?
A private school is good because they are a non-boundary school. As in they arent limited by zones or other regulations public schools follow. They can get whoever they want. Thats why this is a nationwide problem.
If you already have to move up private schools a class higher than their enrollment would place them, then thats basic acknowledgement they have an advantage.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on January 10, 2021, 10:10:58 am
A private school is good because they are a non-boundary school. As in they arent limited by zones or other regulations public schools follow. They can get whoever they want. Thats why this is a nationwide problem.
If you already have to move up private schools a class higher than their enrollment would place them, then thats basic acknowledgement they have an advantage.
That tells me a lot. You're saying that a private school is only good because they're a private school. For the now 500th time, I'm not denying there are some advantages. But the advantages are different for all of them. It's not black and white. It is absurd that you're saying private schools are only good because they're private.
Also, school choice eliminates that whole boundary argument.
Quote from: phdefense on January 09, 2021, 01:31:32 am
Anyone want to talk about House Bill 1097?
Explain this to me like I'm 5. What are/will be the consequences of HB1097, or Act 60?
Quote from: Sweet Feet on January 10, 2021, 10:10:58 am
A private school is good because they are a non-boundary school. As in they arent limited by zones or other regulations public schools follow. They can get whoever they want. Thats why this is a nationwide problem.
If you already have to move up private schools a class higher than their enrollment would place them, then thats basic acknowledgement they have an advantage.
School choice is the equivalent for public schools. They don't have to move privates up. Moving them up was the AAA's use of a pacifier, not an acknowledgement of some unexplainable advantage.
Quote from: Beeman on January 10, 2021, 12:58:10 pm
School choice is the equivalent for public schools. They don't have to move privates up. Moving them up was the AAA's use of a pacifier, not an acknowledgement of some unexplainable advantage.
They are either separated out or moved up in classification in virtually every state. That's not a pacifier. That is an acknowledgment and strong evidence of advantages that public schools don't have. How many public schools get moved up?
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on January 10, 2021, 01:40:12 pm
They are either separated out or moved up in classification in virtually every state. That's not a pacifier. That is an acknowledgment and strong evidence of advantages that public schools don't have. How many public schools get moved up?
Absolutely a pacifier, unless recruiting is actually allowed by those states athletic associations. Here it is not allowed. School choice eliminated the larger boundary "advantage" and now you're left with higher participation rates in extracurricular activities for private schools as the only "advantage".
Who makes up the governing body of the AAA? Highly unlikely you'll see a public school bounced up.
Quote from: Beeman on January 10, 2021, 02:56:25 pm
Absolutely a pacifier, unless recruiting is actually allowed by those states athletic associations. Here it is not allowed. School choice eliminated the larger boundary "advantage" and now you're left with higher participation rates in extracurricular activities for private schools as the only "advantage".
Who makes up the governing body of the AAA? Highly unlikely you'll see a public school bounced up.
If you think "recruiting" is the only advantage private schools have over public you are way behind on this topic.
Quote from: Beeman on January 10, 2021, 02:56:25 pm
Absolutely a pacifier, unless recruiting is actually allowed by those states athletic associations. Here it is not allowed. School choice eliminated the larger boundary "advantage" and now you're left with higher participation rates in extracurricular activities for private schools as the only "advantage".
Who makes up the governing body of the AAA? Highly unlikely you'll see a public school bounced up.
I think this is where private schools win the game is participation rate and obviously socioeconomics helps too. I think socioeconomics matters a lot more in football in today's world compared to basketball where you only technically need 5 players and a couple of quality bench players on the hardwood and you can win. I have stayed out of this debate because arguing over this is pointless to be honest in a state of just a handful of private schools. Now in Florida or Texas where there are hundreds and you can form pretty solid regional conferences then I can see it working. I don't want private schools to split cause I've always felt you play who is in front of you. Heck in high school when we played I know we circled the Shiloh game on the calendar and wanted that one more than any other no matter the sport. It obviously takes a good team to beat them, but Step One is not being scared of them. They probably didn't see us as a rival, but we sure did them.
Back to your participation rate. I know when our school had its best run of 55 plus wins in a 5 year period and at a public school it was not only the participation rate, but it was groups of kids who came through the program and not only was the participation rate high, but as a group they put in the work on their own. It wasn't just a few. It was dozens who would go the extra mile. I would even see them at the practice field on Sunday nights on their own in the summer before 2-a-days the next morning as a group. That's a coach's dream when you don't even have to coach kids' desires to be great. I think its easier for private schools to find those types of kids in their hallways is the point I am making. It's just a matter of fact. At these public schools with very little tradition you are fighting an uphill battle every year with participation and in football you can not win expect to win without high participation rates. Those coach's at schools with lack of tradition are really fighting that battle and they can win from time to time, but it becomes difiicult to sustain success long term without it. Just my two cents of rambling.
Quote from: panther07 on January 10, 2021, 10:40:49 am
That tells me a lot. You're saying that a private school is only good because they're a private school. For the now 500th time, I'm not denying there are some advantages. But the advantages are different for all of them. It's not black and white. It is absurd that you're saying private schools are only good because they're private.
Also, school choice eliminates that whole boundary argument.
Again you are misinterpreting and labeling a false narrative that im not saying. I never said private schools are good just because they are private schools. They are good because they have a wide range of whoever they can get, hence being a "non-boundary" school. They aren't limited to zones like public schools.
Prime example. Any and everyone from Little Rock and even outside city limits can go to PA or LRC if they get accepted. But if they go to a public school, they have to go based on where they are zoned for based on address. If you are zoned for Parkview, you go to Parkview. If you are zoned for Southwest, you go to Southwest etc. Hence why they are called "Boundary Schools". So the school choice counter argument is a poor one.
Really if you aren't denying that Private schools have so much of an advantage that they have to move up a class for competitive balance, then idk what you are even arguing about or your main point is. There's never been a public school forced to move up a class just because they are good or what ever perceived "advantages" they have.
Quote from: Beeman on January 10, 2021, 12:58:10 pm
School choice is the equivalent for public schools. They don't have to move privates up. Moving them up was the AAA's use of a pacifier, not an acknowledgement of some unexplainable advantage.
Private schools from nearly every state in this country are moved up in classification if they are not already separated from public schools. That's not an AAA thing. That's a NATIONAL thing. School choice is a poor argument because you still have school zones and boundaries. You may be in the zone for 1 or 2 schools but not any other school in the area if it isn't in your zone. Private Schools don't have zones. That's why this topic it a major controversy across the nation, not just in ARkansas.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on January 10, 2021, 11:01:21 pm
Private schools from nearly every state in this country are moved up in classification if they are not already separated from public schools. That's not an AAA thing. That's a NATIONAL thing. School choice is a poor argument because you still have school zones and boundaries. You may be in the zone for 1 or 2 schools but not any other school in the area if it isn't in your zone. Private Schools don't have zones. That's why this topic it a major controversy across the nation, not just in ARkansas.
Here are a few facts you seem to be unaware of in your arguments:
There are only 11 school districts exempt from the 2015 public school choice law due to active desegregation orders:
Camden Fairview
Cutter-Morning Star
El Dorado
Fountain Lake
Hope
Hot Springs
Jessieville
Junction City
Lake Hamilton
Lakeside
Mountain Pine
Nothing in the 2015 law restricts school choice to just the schools in a particular zone. So, in Central AR all schools are available to transfer to as long as the transfer complies with the 3% max transfer out rule, transportation can be arranged, and the transfer is accepted by the receiving school.
Private schools do have domicile zones for AAA activity participation - a 25-mile radius around the school.
Bryant and Robinson are two obvious examples of football programs in Central AR that have benefited from public school choice. Someone else has previously cited basketball examples. I seem to recall Mills, Maumelle and Parkview mentioned in the transfer talk.
All that said, for me the transfer/recruiting argument is a red herring.
In my opinion, a combination of participation rates, self-motivation, parental and community support/involvement, coaching and tradition are the true factors for successful schools, private and public. Socioeconomic factors are also in play, but these are not the sole reason for lack of success - they can and very often has been neutralized by the other positive factors as evidenced by the success of many schools in disadvantaged areas.
PA and Greenville are the two most visible examples of schools that have been able to sustain the combination of positive factors (I'm sure I missed a few other schools). Many other schools have hit the proper combination for success from time to time.
Sustaining the positive factors is the really hard pard of the success formula - this is where coaching, community and tradition rise to the forefront.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on January 10, 2021, 10:56:44 pm
Again you are misinterpreting and labeling a false narrative that im not saying. I never said private schools are good just because they are private schools. They are good because they have a wide range of whoever they can get, hence being a "non-boundary" school. They aren't limited to zones like public schools.
Prime example. Any and everyone from Little Rock and even outside city limits can go to PA or LRC if they get accepted. But if they go to a public school, they have to go based on where they are zoned for based on address. If you are zoned for Parkview, you go to Parkview. If you are zoned for Southwest, you go to Southwest etc. Hence why they are called "Boundary Schools". So the school choice counter argument is a poor one.
Really if you aren't denying that Private schools have so much of an advantage that they have to move up a class for competitive balance, then idk what you are even arguing about or your main point is. There's never been a public school forced to move up a class just because they are good or what ever perceived "advantages" they have.
Take a drive through Pleasant Valley and multiple other neighborhoods in WLR and you will notice a plethora of Central High yard signs. These neighborhoods have been zoned for Hall High for years. Not sure that such boundaries you describe exist in LR. I could be wrong. Kids that live in my neighborhood (zoned for Hall) attended Central. I know of students that live in county districts that attended Central. Confusing.
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on January 11, 2021, 10:25:54 am
Take a drive through Pleasant Valley and multiple other neighborhoods in WLR and you will notice a plethora of Central High yard signs. These neighborhoods have been zoned for Hall High for years. Not sure that such boundaries you describe exist in LR. I could be wrong. Kids that live in my neighborhood (zoned for Hall) attended Central. I know of students that live in county districts that attended Central. Confusing.
Took a drive through woodlands edge(PCSSD-Baker to Robinson) and saw several Central yards signs.
Took a drive through Epernay(PCSSD-Robinson) and have seen Parkview signs.
It's a shat show in Little Rock.
When we lived in maumelle, the neighbor kids around us were: Maumelle charter, maumelle, CAC, PA, and Holy souls. Another noncohesive shat show. I find central Arkansas to have no "community" feel when you have schools, private and public, with kids from everywhere. In my non Little Rock community, I see yard signs for two public schools, ESTEM, Baptist prep, and episcopal. And I'm 20 min from Little Rock.
Way different from growing up in Warren, AR.....
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on January 11, 2021, 10:25:54 am
Take a drive through Pleasant Valley and multiple other neighborhoods in WLR and you will notice a plethora of Central High yard signs. These neighborhoods have been zoned for Hall High for years. Not sure that such boundaries you describe exist in LR. I could be wrong. Kids that live in my neighborhood (zoned for Hall) attended Central. I know of students that live in county districts that attended Central. Confusing.
That's because for years people have been using false addresses or someone else's so they can attend another school in LR. There are advantages to both sides. PA and Christian do have some good athletes, but where they have a little bit of an upper hand is support. That's a bigger deal than many understand. One thing I've began to really notice at PA is the culture and expectations to win and compete across all sports. That can make up for a lack of talent. Seems to be the same thing at Christian.
Public wise you have a school like Robinson who had some success, got kids to the D1 level and build new facilities. All three of those things allowed them to start "recruiting kids". In all actuality they're getting a lot of kids back from private or LRSD that are "zoned" for Robinson but haven't gone there. Think about it without private schools Robinson may have the best zone in the entire state. A lot of money in that area but until a few years basically none of those kids were going there, or at least not staying there for high school. Improved academic programs, facilities and athletic success has changed that some. Still missing out on a ton of kids to Christian, PA, Baptist, Catholic and Central. Which hurts them academically just as much as athletics.
LRSD actually allows students to attend a different school other than the one they are residentially assigned to - are there people still doing the whole fake address scam - sure but I'd imagine the "offense" that most are committing is that they abide by the guidelines as set forth and have gone through the application process to change schools.
https://www.lrsd.org/Page/2759
From a LRSD perspective, one would think they'd grant as many transfers as they possibly can because if a parent is taking the steps to request to move their kid to a different school within the district (ie Central) then LRSD may lose that $$$$, I mean lose that kid completely to either another district or a private school, if the request is denied.
My two cents on the larger topic is that I'd imagine the private schools would be thrilled to move to a private school only SOFTBALL league/conference --- to save you some time, there have been 3 private school state champions in the past 20 years, Arkansas Baptist in 05 and 2010 and CAC in 06 and only one private school made the playoffs in 2019 (Baptist Prep)
Quote from: Maynard G Krebs on January 11, 2021, 10:25:54 am
Take a drive through Pleasant Valley and multiple other neighborhoods in WLR and you will notice a plethora of Central High yard signs. These neighborhoods have been zoned for Hall High for years. Not sure that such boundaries you describe exist in LR. I could be wrong. Kids that live in my neighborhood (zoned for Hall) attended Central. I know of students that live in county districts that attended Central. Confusing.
LRSD's zones are always changing. Pleasant Valley and areas nearby are all zoned for Central for now. It was probably different a while back but like i said, LRSD is always changing their zoning boundaries. There used to be the famous M-to-M transfer system that allowed kids in the LR area and the outskirts of LR allowing them to go to different schools. You could be in Sherwood, which would mean you would go to Sylvan Hills, a PCSSD School. But the M to M transfer could allow you to go to a LRSD school. That no longer exists anymore.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on January 11, 2021, 08:27:07 pm
LRSD's zones are always changing. Pleasant Valley and areas nearby are all zoned for Central for now. It was probably different a while back but like i said, LRSD is always changing their zoning boundaries. There used to be the famous M-to-M transfer system that allowed kids in the LR area and the outskirts of LR allowing them to go to different schools. You could be in Sherwood, which would mean you would go to Sylvan Hills, a PCSSD School. But the M to M transfer could allow you to go to a LRSD school. That no longer exists anymore.
You need to recheck your "facts" as they are either outdated or totally incorrect. Start with these two links:
https://www.lrsd.org/Page/2759 (https://www.lrsd.org/Page/2759)
https://www.lrsd.org/cms/lib/AR02203631/Centricity/Domain/158/2020%20LR_School_High_Map.pdf (https://www.lrsd.org/cms/lib/AR02203631/Centricity/Domain/158/2020%20LR_School_High_Map.pdf)
Someone earlier said "this isn't about winning and losing." How self-deluded can one be?
Quote from: RazorDad on January 12, 2021, 01:05:55 pm
You need to recheck your "facts" as they are either outdated or totally incorrect. Start with these two links:
https://www.lrsd.org/Page/2759 (https://www.lrsd.org/Page/2759)
https://www.lrsd.org/cms/lib/AR02203631/Centricity/Domain/158/2020%20LR_School_High_Map.pdf (https://www.lrsd.org/cms/lib/AR02203631/Centricity/Domain/158/2020%20LR_School_High_Map.pdf)
Uhh...thanks for proving my point?
If you live in the LR area, you will know that the LRSD has zones, as shown in the 2nd link. You will also know that the LRSD and the PCSSD are two different districts. That link didn't say anything about transfers from LRSD to PCSSD or vice versa. You can only transfer within the school district. You can put in a request, but even then that has to be approved. That's why i brought up the old M-to-M transfer that was discontinued that allowed LRSD students and PCSSD students to transfer across those districts more easily.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on January 16, 2021, 05:16:38 pm
Uhh...thanks for proving my point?
If you live in the LR area, you will know that the LRSD has zones, as shown in the 2nd link. You will also know that the LRSD and the PCSSD are two different districts. That link didn't say anything about transfers from LRSD to PCSSD or vice versa. You can only transfer within the school district. You can put in a request, but even then that has to be approved. That's why i brought up the old M-to-M transfer that was discontinued that allowed LRSD students and PCSSD students to transfer across those districts more easily.
I did not prove your point at all. First link, last two paragraphs. Also, the same from the PCSSD web site:
https://www.pcssd.org/o/pcssd/page/school-choice--28 (https://www.pcssd.org/o/pcssd/page/school-choice--28)
In fact, pretty much every school district in AR has it posted since it is state law.
These prove my point as well the personal experience of those of us who actually live in Little Rock and have either used School Choice or have family or friends who have.
Transfers within LRSD schools and between LRSD/NLRSD and PCSSD are legal and very common. I can confidently say that high school public to public transfers are much more common than high school public to private transfers here in Central AR.
Quote from: RazorDad on January 18, 2021, 01:03:26 pm
I did not prove your point at all. First link, last two paragraphs. Also, the same from the PCSSD web site:
https://www.pcssd.org/o/pcssd/page/school-choice--28 (https://www.pcssd.org/o/pcssd/page/school-choice--28)
In fact, pretty much every school district in AR has it posted since it is state law.
These prove my point as well the personal experience of those of us who actually live in Little Rock and have either used School Choice or have family or friends who have.
Transfers within LRSD schools and between LRSD/NLRSD and PCSSD are legal and very common. I can confidently say that high school public to public transfers are much more common than high school public to private transfers here in Central AR.
And in both of those links, it states that they have to be accepted first. They can't just transfer whenever they want. The non-residential district has to accept them first. So again that just only proves my point.
There's a lot of parents in the LR area who have to put false addresses to at least try to have the same zone as the wanted school. Otherwise, their kids were stuck at the original zoned school, in which a lot were because they had no other addresses to use. Basing off experience and what i have seen living in the LR area, transferring isn't as easy as made to appear. That being said, AAA is aware like most states of the boundary vs non-boundary issue, hince why there are no multipliers for Public schools.
Quote from: PA Dad on August 06, 2019, 11:20:58 pm
I try to bump this thread every year because it is the best discussion of public versus private ever. Some of the posts are nonsense but on the whole the discussion is intelligent and thoughtful. I recommend it for new posters.
Got to agree. I come and go from FF but when I come back this is one I always look at. It's also a good place to begin branching out from.
Quote from: HeberFan on January 13, 2021, 02:48:11 pm
Someone earlier said "this isn't about winning and losing." How self-deluded can one be?
Unfortunately it always comes back to winning and losing. Ask the coaches who change jobs? That winning can start with some changes in classifications. I've read through some of the thoughts on here and I think all schools being classified by their success is a reasonable idea.
Quote from: panther07 on January 08, 2021, 11:44:30 am
So a private school being good is simply because they're private?
Partly because they have a 25 mile radius for a school district. What public school has that? I'd love to see what public school districts the students enrolled at PA, LRCA, Shiloh, and all the rest of the private actually live in? Public get their kids from their district. Yes I know about school choice and the waiting period.
Winning is important and in some place "really" important and some folks bend the rules. It happens in private as well as public and it will not fix itself by trusting the offenders to fix it. IMO.
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on May 06, 2021, 10:54:00 am
Partly because they have a 25 mile radius for a school district. What public school has that? I'd love to see what public school districts the students enrolled at PA, LRCA, Shiloh, and all the rest of the private actually live in? Public get their kids from their district. Yes I know about school choice and the waiting period.
Doesn't enrollment come down to how many available or potential students exist within the "school district"? So a larger district with a heavy concentration of population is definitely an advantage.
Why is competitive balance needed?
Harding has 173 (9-11) that roughly means 28 boys a class. The coaches just that good or do they recruit? Up to you!
Harding Academy
Boys Soccer Finals (Favorite)
Boys Football State Champs back to back (probably will go for 3)
Boys Basketball state champs
Boys Baseball state finals (Favorite)
Boys golf runner up behind another private school
Girls soccer finals
Girls track state champs (probably win it for the next 3 years)
They basically win everything!!
https://forums.fearlessfriday.com/index.php?topic=145772.0
Quote from: Thebutcher on May 19, 2021, 12:22:22 pm
Why is competitive balance needed?
Harding has 173 (9-11) that roughly means 28 boys a class. The coaches just that good or do they recruit? Up to you!
Harding Academy
Boys Soccer Finals (Favorite)
Boys Football State Champs back to back (probably will go for 3)
Boys Basketball state champs
Boys Baseball state finals (Favorite)
Boys golf runner up behind another private school
Girls soccer finals
Girls track state champs (probably win it for the next 3 years)
They basically win everything!!
Thanks for coming... I'm an HA fan. Competitive Equity doesn't bother me. It's most fair way to handle it. I think it should be all schools if we're truly after equity. But I don't have a say.
The only privilege I see is you thinking you deserve to win more by getting rid of a private school who you can't handle has a special crop of athletes at the current time... why are people so scared to lose in athletics like its life or death? Step one is quit being scared of private schools. That might help you
Look at HA's run in basketball specifically and it will tell you everything you need to know why this group at HA is special. Look how many close games they won down the stretch and the state title comeback. I have zero attachment to their program but common sense tells you their resilience in basketball postseason shows you those kids have a winner's mentality between their ears. Its obvious they never think they will lose.. they have good athletes at HA but so do some other schools. HA is beating you between the ears when it gets crunch time. Some kids have that competitive "it factor" when moments get tight and some don't
Quote from: beach bum on May 19, 2021, 12:56:10 pm
The only privilege I see is you thinking you deserve to win more by getting rid of a private school who you can't handle has a special crop of athletes at the current time... why are people so scared to lose in athletics like its life or death? Step one is quit being scared of private schools. That might help you
Look at HA's run in basketball specifically and it will tell you everything you need to know why this group at HA is special. Look how many close games they won down the stretch and the state title comeback. I have zero attachment to their program but common sense tells you their resilience in basketball postseason shows you those kids have a winner's mentality between their ears. Its obvious they never think they will lose.. they have good athletes at HA but so do other schools. HA is beating you between the ears when it gets crunch time. Some kids have that competitive "it factor" and some don't
Everyone should get a trophy and they're getting them all. It's not fair. And the recruit and they cheat. They have players moving in from all over they United States. Just imagine if the had 90% of their kids play sports and work hard how good they would be.
Here is my quote from 2019. I wasn't sure you would go read the 54 pages on the link that I sent to you.
Sorry that I'm late to the party. I'm a believer that my teams prepare to defeat any other teams whether they are public or private. We prepare with the knowledge that they may have advantages but such is life. We have competed while at or near the bottom of our classification in enrollment numbers for most of the past 15 years. We are a low socioeconomic and rural community. We liken it unto life itself. It is what you make of it. Yes, sometimes we do everything right and still don't win the state championships but nothing stops our drive for excellence. If a parent wants to take their child to Greenwood or Booneville where they win at football most of the time, we don't like it but we understand that winning is their top priority. I agree with a number of statements from each side. Private schools do possess some advantages. But so do public schools like GW and Bentonville. Not all private schools have advantages: Subiaco, Union Christian. Coaching has much to do with success yet I believe you must have the Jimmies and Joes as they say. Too many variables involved in success for me to worry about a few private schools dominating. The AAA has addressed it in the past and will again should enough administrators believe it is a problem. But as for me, I'll stick to teaching excellent work ethic, high expectations, do your best at anything you attempt on a daily basis, and then accept where the chips fall whether it is against larger schools, smaller schools, public schools, or private schools. Just my short, simple, rural take on this. Oh, I'll talk 2A girls Track and Field any time! Now, back to your regularly scheduled arguments... I'm going back to my 2A boards and Track and Field threads. See you over there AT! WPS. Lady Razorbacks cross country!!
I still believe in these values and ideals.
And the bold lettering is part two of my response:
Quote from: PA Parent on November 20, 2019, 04:35:40 pm
To your point OldOutlaw, a year or two after the private school multiplier went into effect I had a conversation with one of the coaches at Baptist Prep regarding football. He stated that he had never had as many season and career ending injuries (in his coaching career) as he had in the previous football season. The kids are made to suffer just because their parents choose to send them to a private school for a great education. I don't know the answer but making a 130lb kid line up against a 300lb kid isn't it!!
I have been reading this board for a year or two and have noticed there are a ton of un-truths regarding private schools....or at least with regard to the one I have some knowledge. From my perspective the AAA has a disdain for the private schools and try to make things as hard as they can on them....and yet they compete and some win with the deck staked against them. I am sure many would bring up the socio-economic advantages that "all" private schools have over others. I would submit that the private schools do more with less.....there's a curve ball for ya!
They have to! Most of the time the team they line up against has more size, speed and overall talent. "How could that be, when we know they recruit and that came from a friend who knows a guy who's neighbor said they were contacted when his son was in third grade to come to (insert private school)???" Facts are missing!
Please don't misunderstand, I do acknowledge there is a huge advantage to going to private school, or at least the one my children have attended.....its called EDUCATION. They are prepared for college and more prepared for life in general. Preparation is a shared responsibility. In loco parentis My brother attended public school and hit perfect score on ACT. My daughters hit high ACT scores. Public. All my nieces and nephews-same. All are successful and happy young adults. Parenting plus school, if they choose to attend school, equals outcome. My parents made sure. And we all had excellent discipline in our lives. I will agree that the "average " student differs in those areas, but not so much because of the school but because of all influences. Just my take. They are expected/required to abide by an honor code and if you don't, you don't get "D Hall", you get to go to another school. Which brings us to another word - DISCIPLINE. Which is the ONLY way the 130lb kid stays on the field with the 300lb kid!!
Thanks for letting me vent!
I believe that is why they win so much. Positive influences and discipline.
Quote from: RATTLER43 on May 19, 2021, 12:33:07 pm
https://forums.fearlessfriday.com/index.php?topic=145772.0
Go to this link to join the argument/discussion of such things......
I realize life's not fair and private vs public will never be governed on a case by case basis, but I think HA is/was good for 3A.
Time will tell and the obviously the die has been cast but I hate to see them go. In their specific case, it was a special group of guys that came through and gave it their all.
I have a completely different opinion about what PA assembled under KK and I see why that was addressed.
Quote from: Leo Marvin on May 19, 2021, 01:56:28 pm
I realize life's not fair and private vs public will never be governed on a case by case basis, but I think HA is/was good for 3A.
Time will tell and the obviously the die has been cast but I hate to see them go. In their specific case, it was a special group of guys that came through and gave it their all.
I have a completely different opinion about what PA assembled under KK and I see why that was addressed.
This
Quote from: RATTLER43 on May 19, 2021, 01:15:12 pm
And the bold lettering is part two of my response:
Quote from: PA Parent on November 20, 2019, 04:35:40 pm
To your point OldOutlaw, a year or two after the private school multiplier went into effect I had a conversation with one of the coaches at Baptist Prep regarding football. He stated that he had never had as many season and career ending injuries (in his coaching career) as he had in the previous football season. The kids are made to suffer just because their parents choose to send them to a private school for a great education. I don't know the answer but making a 130lb kid line up against a 300lb kid isn't it!!
I have been reading this board for a year or two and have noticed there are a ton of un-truths regarding private schools....or at least with regard to the one I have some knowledge. From my perspective the AAA has a disdain for the private schools and try to make things as hard as they can on them....and yet they compete and some win with the deck staked against them. I am sure many would bring up the socio-economic advantages that "all" private schools have over others. I would submit that the private schools do more with less.....there's a curve ball for ya!
They have to! Most of the time the team they line up against has more size, speed and overall talent. "How could that be, when we know they recruit and that came from a friend who knows a guy who's neighbor said they were contacted when his son was in third grade to come to (insert private school)???" Facts are missing!
Please don't misunderstand, I do acknowledge there is a huge advantage to going to private school, or at least the one my children have attended.....its called EDUCATION. They are prepared for college and more prepared for life in general. Preparation is a shared responsibility. In loco parentis My brother attended public school and hit perfect score on ACT. My daughters hit high ACT scores. Public. All my nieces and nephews-same. All are successful and happy young adults. Parenting plus school, if they choose to attend school, equals outcome. My parents made sure. And we all had excellent discipline in our lives. I will agree that the "average " student differs in those areas, but not so much because of the school but because of all influences. Just my take. They are expected/required to abide by an honor code and if you don't, you don't get "D Hall", you get to go to another school. Which brings us to another word - DISCIPLINE. Which is the ONLY way the 130lb kid stays on the field with the 300lb kid!!
Thanks for letting me vent!
I believe that is why they win so much. Positive influences and discipline.
Spot on!! Parenting contributions matter greatly.
Who knew!
Quote from: Thebutcher on May 19, 2021, 12:22:22 pm
Why is competitive balance needed?
Harding has 173 (9-11) that roughly means 28 boys a class. The coaches just that good or do they recruit? Up to you!
Harding Academy
Boys Soccer Finals (Favorite)
Boys Football State Champs back to back (probably will go for 3)
Boys Basketball state champs
Boys Baseball state finals (Favorite)
Boys golf runner up behind another private school
Girls soccer finals
Girls track state champs (probably win it for the next 3 years)
They basically win everything!!
Statistical arguments like this have zero validity. They always cherry-pick which stats to include, particularly by covering only a small period insufficient to establish a trend. Moreover, they make numerous underlying assumptions. Such as that HA could only win as many championships as they have done recently if they have an unfair advantage. This is like arguing that Asian students must have an unfair advantage in taking standardized tests such as the SAT or they would not outperform other groups by such a wide margin. However, if members of other groups exhibited the same focus and dedication that the Asians do, they would have similar success. Likewise, public schools can and do have the same or greater level of success as private schools in sports when they have the staff, dedication, and work ethic as schools like HA. For example, Bryant has won three straight football championships, and Greenwood two of the last three and ten overall.
Moreover, this argument is not really based on the statistics cited. It hasn't changed since HA won its first football championship in recent years in 2012. The Wildcats were accused of recruiting then, too, even though almost all of its players had been students at HA since elementary school, many since kindergarten.
Besides, why beat a dead horse? Public schools have prevailed and gotten HA kicked out of 3A in football after 2021. Other sports in which they've had a level of success will likely follow as well.
Quote from: Thebutcher on May 19, 2021, 12:22:22 pm
Why is competitive balance needed?
Harding has 173 (9-11) that roughly means 28 boys a class. The coaches just that good or do they recruit? Up to you!
Harding Academy
Boys Soccer Finals (Favorite)
Boys Football State Champs back to back (probably will go for 3)
Boys Basketball state champs
Boys Baseball state finals (Favorite)
Boys golf runner up behind another private school
Girls soccer finals
Girls track state champs (probably win it for the next 3 years)
They basically win everything!!
Harding(12-2-1) is hardly the favorite in soccer against 21-0-1 Green Forest, a well known soccer powerhouse. Nowhere have I seen them listed as the favorite either.
Quote from: beach bum on May 19, 2021, 12:56:10 pm
The only privilege I see is you thinking you deserve to win more by getting rid of a private school who you can't handle has a special crop of athletes at the current time... why are people so scared to lose in athletics like its life or death? Step one is quit being scared of private schools. That might help you
Look at HA's run in basketball specifically and it will tell you everything you need to know why this group at HA is special. Look how many close games they won down the stretch and the state title comeback. I have zero attachment to their program but common sense tells you their resilience in basketball postseason shows you those kids have a winner's mentality between their ears. Its obvious they never think they will lose.. they have good athletes at HA but so do some other schools. HA is beating you between the ears when it gets crunch time. Some kids have that competitive "it factor" when moments get tight and some don't
Why even break classifications on enrollment. Those 2A schools should just work harder if they want to beat a 6A school. Typical, they probably just want a trophy so will complain it's not fair they have to play bigger schools. Babies, soft, not mentally tough, yada yada.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on May 19, 2021, 06:15:49 pm
Why even break classifications on enrollment. Those 2A schools should just work harder if they want to beat a 6A school. Typical, they probably just want a trophy so will complain it's not fair they have to play bigger schools. Babies, soft, not mentally tough, yada yada.
Thats not even the same argument... In fact you are making mine. Harding already has half the enrollment of some of the schools they are playing and the 365 rule they must follow. And if you are scared of the private schools you probably are soft.
Quote from: beach bum on May 19, 2021, 06:18:59 pm
Thats not even the same argument... In fact you are making mine. Harding already has half the enrollment of some of the schools they are playing and the 365 rule they must follow. And if you are scared of the private schools you probably are soft.
What do you mean it's not the same argument? Where do you draw the line of what you should and should not separate schools for? Why have classes at all if hard work and coaching is all that matters? Do you think they should have classifications?
People who needed their own "private school" to get away from the struggles of public school life are going to call public school people soft.......now that's funny.
This is a very stupid thread!!!! Quit whining and practice!!!!
Quote from: Beeman on May 19, 2021, 03:48:13 pm
Harding(12-2-1) is hardly the favorite in soccer against 21-0-1 Green Forest, a well known soccer powerhouse. Nowhere have I seen them listed as the favorite either.
Cmon man. Soccer is not a sport.
Quote from: Oldman on May 19, 2021, 09:48:58 pm
Cmon man. Soccer is not a sport.
NASCAR is though! Don't let anybody tell you otherwise ;D
To sum up both sides of this ongoing argument:
Side 1- Private Schools have no school zones and get whoever they want wherever. Public Schools have to accommodate their school zone of kids first before accepting anyone. Multipliers for private schools are basic acknowledgement of private schools having advantages over public schools because of their enrollment structure. Not just in Arkansas but around the country. Some states like Texas even split public and private schools because of this.
Side 2- Shutup and get better! Darn participation trophy generation! Quit crying!
Hopefully the CBF helps with all of this though.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on May 19, 2021, 10:02:11 pm
To sum up both sides of this ongoing argument:
Side 1- Private Schools have no school zones and get whoever they want wherever. Public Schools have to accommodate their school zone of kids first before accepting anyone. Multipliers for private schools are basic acknowledgement of private schools having advantages over public schools because of their enrollment structure. Not just in Arkansas but around the country. Some states like Texas even split public and private schools because of this.
Side 2- Shutup and get better! Darn participation trophy generation! Quit crying!
Hopefully the CBF helps with all of this though.
. No school has school zones! Per freedom of choice!
Quote from: Ctucker on May 20, 2021, 01:15:28 pm
. No school has school zones! Per freedom of choice!
Huh?
Quote from: Ctucker on May 20, 2021, 01:15:28 pm
. No school has school zones! Per freedom of choice!
They do, not all counties abide/have school of choice, the biggest is pulaski county where you are zoned into districts if you live on chenal around the markham area you have to go to central, if you live north of the rodney parham/henson intersection you go to parkview, the list goes on. just saying.
oh and you cant live in pulaski county and go to school in conway, per the school zone rules, this is public school only.
also by comparison private schools have absolutly no disrtict/ zone requirements, you can live in jonesboro and go to harding if you want you dont have to move. this is just an example. also you can transfer to any private school from public and still play the sport mid season if you choose as long as coaches agree, where as you cannot between public schools even if you are moving to different classification on the other side of the state.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on May 19, 2021, 10:02:11 pm
To sum up both sides of this ongoing argument:
Side 1- Private Schools have no school zones and get whoever they want wherever. Public Schools have to accommodate their school zone of kids first before accepting anyone. Multipliers for private schools are basic acknowledgement of private schools having advantages over public schools because of their enrollment structure. Not just in Arkansas but around the country. Some states like Texas even split public and private schools because of this.
Side 2- Shutup and get better! Darn participation trophy generation! Quit crying!
Hopefully the CBF helps with all of this though.
Private school multipliers are NOT a basic acknowledgment that private schools in fact have advantages. They are the result of (1) the resentment/jealousy of some public school fans of the success of some, not all, private schools, and (2) public schools outnumbering private schools exponentially in voting power and political pressure placed on sprots governing bodies.
Side 2 is incorrectly stated, of course. The true position is: (1) Private schools do not have inherent advantages despite all the spurious and sometimes contradictory arguments made for that proposition. (2) In fact, private schools are at a disadvantage already being forced to play up a class. Plus, many private schools do not have the financial resources to apply to sports that public schools do. (3) The private school in 3A that has had the highest level of success in sports is Harding Academy, and HA does not recruit students for sports. Also, they do not cherry-pick athletes from other area schools. In fact, 2 starters from HA's 2019 football team transferred to Searcy High and played in 2020.
Besides, you got your way. Private schools will be continually kicked into higher classes until they reach a level where they can no longer compete. Give it a rest.
Quote from: Ctucker on May 20, 2021, 01:15:28 pm
. No school has school zones! Per freedom of choice!
What? School choice has nothing to do with zones.
Quote from: CoolBreeze on May 20, 2021, 02:25:07 pm
Private school multipliers are NOT a basic acknowledgment that private schools in fact have advantages. They are the result of (1) the resentment/jealousy of some public school fans of the success of some, not all, private schools, and (2) public schools outnumbering private schools exponentially in voting power and political pressure placed on sprots governing bodies.
Side 2 is incorrectly stated, of course. The true position is: (1) Private schools do not have inherent advantages despite all the spurious and sometimes contradictory arguments made for that proposition. (2) In fact, private schools are at a disadvantage already being forced to play up a class. Plus, many private schools do not have the financial resources to apply to sports that public schools do. (3) The private school in 3A that has had the highest level of success in sports is Harding Academy, and HA does not recruit students for sports. Also, they do not cherry-pick athletes from other area schools. In fact, 2 starters from HA's 2019 football team transferred to Searcy High and played in 2020.
Besides, you got your way. Private schools will be continually kicked into higher classes until they reach a level where they can no longer compete. Give it a rest.
Again, this is a national thing. Private schools have formulas and multipliers not because of jealously or hate. They have it because they are structurally different from Public schools in terms of enrollment that can give them athletic benefits. You won't see Greenwood or Nashville have multipliers. No public school in the nation has multipliers. It is also why you would see some states like Texas of all states go as far as separate the two. Because they have common sense.
"Private schools do not have inherent advantages" - Circular argument. After multiple posts regarding private schools being able to accept/deny admission from anyone from anywhere, handpick their student body, and not have a school zone of kids to accommodate first and foremost before accepting anyone else, that statement has been factually refuted. If you throw in the population of the 25mile radius private schools have to pick and choose students and the scholarships given, that further refutes that narrative. But for some reason, these facts always get deflected or ignored on here.
"Private schools are at a disadvantage because they have to play up" - Really? i can't tell. Since the 70s, PA, Shiloh, and HA are in the Top 5 for most state titles. all three are in the Top 10 all time. Since 2000, private schools have made up 20% of the state title teams even though they make up 4% of the AAA football teams. BTW its only been 8-10 football playing private schools. Since 2010 PA has had 15 star-ranked recruits. LRCA has had 10. Shiloh has 4. Name any other school with their exact enrollment numbers who's produced like that. It helps when your 25 mile radius to pick from has a population of 700,000, 400,000, and 100,000. Lets not forget 40+ players on LRCA's football team were all on scholarship
HA is still able to handpick anyone from Searcy alone without having a zone to accommodate it's student body. Searcy has over 20,000 people. The towns the 3A schools are in are lucky to reach over 5000, which most don't. That in itself is advantage. HA's 25 mile radius population in general is 100,000. That's why it's no shock to see them dominate 3A.
Private schools moving up will help out but it won't be the main problem solver. all of this will be given a rest when people can stop being delusional and in denial about the differences between public and private schools that the rest of the nation has already acknowledged and taken measures.
I think the only way this passes muster in future litigation (and there will be some) is to apply competitive balance across the board to publics as well as privates. Looking forward to Nashville vs. Sheridan.
Quote from: friscokid on May 22, 2021, 08:58:33 pm
I think the only way this passes muster in future litigation (and there will be some) is to apply competitive balance across the board to publics as well as privates. Looking forward to Nashville vs. Sheridan.
Last time Warren played Sheridan, Warren beat the life out of Sheridan. I suspect Nashville would do the same.
Quote from: CoolBreeze on May 20, 2021, 02:25:07 pm
The private school in 3A that has had the highest level of success in sports is Harding Academy, and HA does not recruit students for sports. Also, they do not cherry-pick athletes from other area schools. In fact, 2 starters from HA's 2019 football team transferred to Searcy High and played in 2020.
It's just rather ironic that nobody understands that. When you go down the list of HA starters the names never changed. I played against Keese's and Tribble's. My Brother played against Keese's and Tribble's. HA is more like a public school than any private. Yes they do compete at a high level, but when your parents are professors or collegiate coaches there tends to be a higher level of success.
Quote from: we_hate_the_band on May 24, 2021, 09:36:13 am
It's just rather ironic that nobody understands that. When you go down the list of HA starters the names never changed. I played against Keese's and Tribble's. My Brother played against Keese's and Tribble's. HA is more like a public school than any private. Yes they do compete at a high level, but when your parents are professors or collegiate coaches there tends to be a higher level of success.
You just said there tends to be a higher level of success because of an advantage HA has. It's not just recruiting that makes people feel they should be in their own division. You are caught up on recruiting, there is way more to it than that. There are countless hidden advantages they have.
Quote from: Zoneblitz20 on May 24, 2021, 09:56:05 am
You just said there tends to be a higher level of success because of an advantage HA has. It's not just recruiting that makes people feel they should be in their own division. You are caught up on recruiting, there is way more to it than that. There are countless hidden advantages they have.
Maybe schools who put more emphasis on sports shouldbhave their own divisions too
Quote from: HorseFeathers on May 24, 2021, 10:15:02 am
Maybe schools who put more emphasis on sports shouldbhave their own divisions too
Easier to put more emphasis on football when you don't have to account for what budget line the money is coming from. It's easier when the number of minutes your kids spend in certain classes each week aren't an obstacle. I could go on and on with these. Just one advantage is to many, but we are talking about multiple.
Quote from: RATTLER43 on May 19, 2021, 01:11:49 pm
Here is my quote from 2019. I wasn't sure you would go read the 54 pages on the link that I sent to you.
Sorry that I'm late to the party. I'm a believer that my teams prepare to defeat any other teams whether they are public or private. We prepare with the knowledge that they may have advantages but such is life. We have competed while at or near the bottom of our classification in enrollment numbers for most of the past 15 years. We are a low socioeconomic and rural community. We liken it unto life itself. It is what you make of it. Yes, sometimes we do everything right and still don't win the state championships but nothing stops our drive for excellence. If a parent wants to take their child to Greenwood or Booneville where they win at football most of the time, we don't like it but we understand that winning is their top priority. I agree with a number of statements from each side. Private schools do possess some advantages. But so do public schools like GW and Bentonville. Not all private schools have advantages: Subiaco, Union Christian. Coaching has much to do with success yet I believe you must have the Jimmies and Joes as they say. Too many variables involved in success for me to worry about a few private schools dominating. The AAA has addressed it in the past and will again should enough administrators believe it is a problem. But as for me, I'll stick to teaching excellent work ethic, high expectations, do your best at anything you attempt on a daily basis, and then accept where the chips fall whether it is against larger schools, smaller schools, public schools, or private schools. Just my short, simple, rural take on this. Oh, I'll talk 2A girls Track and Field any time! Now, back to your regularly scheduled arguments... I'm going back to my 2A boards and Track and Field threads. See you over there AT! WPS. Lady Razorbacks cross country!!
I still believe in these values and ideals.
Why do private schools get so upset that public schools would just as soon have the privates stay private, totally?
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on May 25, 2021, 01:48:30 pm
Why do private schools get so upset that public schools would just as soon have the privates stay private, totally?
That's one question that i have wondered as well. Private schools were built on being separate from Public Schools. Why now throw a fit about being separate in sports?
Quote from: Sweet Feet on May 25, 2021, 06:28:09 pm
That's one question that i have wondered as well. Private schools were built on being separate from Public Schools. Why now throw a fit about being separate in sports?
+1
Quote from: Sweet Feet on May 25, 2021, 06:28:09 pm
That's one question that i have wondered as well. Private schools were built on being separate from Public Schools. Why now throw a fit about being separate in sports?
Now that is the question of all questions!
Quote from: Sweet Feet on May 25, 2021, 06:28:09 pm
That's one question that i have wondered as well. Private schools were built on being separate from Public Schools. Why now throw a fit about being separate in sports?
Good question.
The answer is simple. They need the public schools to give them games to play. There are not enough private schools of the same size to be playing each other in the state.
Quote from: Walter on May 30, 2021, 02:52:07 pm
The answer is simple. They need the public schools to give them games to play. There are not enough private schools of the same size to be playing each other in the state.
And it's no fun for Pa to beat up on Baptist prep, Episcopal etc as opposed to beating Joe T, Maumelle, Etc etc.
Nick Smith transferring to NLR... crazy how this works. Where's the outrage?
Quote from: panther07 on July 21, 2021, 05:49:42 pmNick Smith transferring to NLR... crazy how this works. Where's the outrage?
Hold on now! You are talking about public schools. Everyone knows they don't recruit. I mean come on there isn't any advantage a school like NLR has over any other public school. They are all equal. Schools like Fort Smith competes perfectly with schools like Greenwood. They are all equal. Its only when you put that one evil Private school in there that destroys everything. HA HA glad we don't have to worry about this in NWA. We have Shiloh but everyone knows Shiloh doesn't recruit on a lever to pull kids from Bentonville or Fayetteville if anything it goes the other way.
Who is Nick smith?
Quote from: AirWarren on July 30, 2021, 04:00:17 pmWho is Nick smith?
Big time basketball player that transferred to NLR from Sylvan Hills. Either a high 4 or 5 star now
Quote from: AirWarren on July 30, 2021, 04:00:17 pmWho is Nick smith?
Was already answered, but he's the best basketball player in the state. It's good news for Maumelle - we won't have to face him again next season.
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on August 20, 2021, 10:02:41 amWas already answered, but he's the best basketball player in the state. It's good news for Maumelle - we won't have to face him again next season.
Thanks. Hope all is well in Hornet land!
Quote from: AirWarren on August 20, 2021, 10:06:33 amThanks. Hope all is well in Hornet land!
Going well my friend, other than PA stealing another one of our assistants. That's 2 in the last 5 years. How are the Senators and Jacks looking this fall?
Quote from: Chief_Osceola™ on August 20, 2021, 10:10:24 amGoing well my friend, other than PA stealing another one of our assistants. That's 2 in the last 5 years. How are the Senators and Jacks looking this fall?
I honestly have no idea what to think about Warren. Local media in Warren hasn't been the best at relaying information like rosters, spring ball, and fall camp, people are kind of out of the loop. I think the football edition is supposed to be out the football edition out the Tuesday before the first game. That's in the actual Warren paper and that particular publication doesn't do an internet site. As far as Joe T, my central Arkansas friends say that they should be pretty good this year.
"Private schools are at a disadvantage because they have to play up" - Really? i can't tell. Since the 70s, PA, Shiloh, and HA are in the Top 5 for most state titles.
Since 2010 PA has had 15 star-ranked recruits. LRCA has had 10. Shiloh has 4. Name any other school with their exact enrollment numbers who's produced like that.
It helps when your 25 mile radius to pick from has a population of 700,000, 400,000, and 100,000. [/quote]#1 find it really funny private schools have been dominate as you say since the 70s??
2003 - PA wins first State Championship. From the 70s - 2000s PA rarely made it into the playoffs and had 0 State championships. Shiloh Christian won their first SC in 1998. I think they started playing in the early 90s. Schools with more State championships - LR Central (30), Pine Bluff (23), Fort Smith Northside (14), Greenwood (10), El Dorado (9).
Since 2010 PA has had 15 star ranked recruits? As a AVID AR Razorback fan is this supposed to be a BAD thing? HMMM do I want schools in AR to increase number of star rated athletes that can then play for the U of A or less? Maybe it would be better if all the schools produced 0? If anything we need more schools like this to increase the talent on AR team and maybe they can compete in the SEC! Funny you threw Shiloh with 4! Is 4 really a bragging point for a school that "recruits" thats less than 1 a year. If the university of AR only AVG 4 players playing in the NFL in 11 years we would take that as a failure not a success!
Lastly it helps when your 25 mile radius has a population of 700,000??? Are you talking about the State of AR? Where in AR is there a population of 700,000??? Pulaski County has a population of roughly 392,000. Benton and Washington County combined has a population of roughly 536,000. Were you adding the 3 largest counties of the State and stating thats PA recruiting area? Why not throw Dallas into that market it would make for more impressive numbers (additional 6.2 million people)?
I just wish people would spend more time figuring how to make HS football in AR better rather than attacking the only good schools in the state. If you think moving PA up to 7A is going to fix things, they might be able to win 7A easier than 5A. Right now Rogers is leading 7A West with 2 wins. Southside is 0-3, Springdale is 0-3 (lost to a 6A Van Buren and 5A Farmington), Har Ber is 0-2, Rogers Heritage is 0-2, Fayetteville is 1-2. In 7A Central LR SW is 0-3, Central is 0-3, Catholic is 0-2. That means 8-16 teams combined have 1 win so far this year.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on September 16, 2021, 01:46:19 pm"Private schools are at a disadvantage because they have to play up" - Really? i can't tell. Since the 70s, PA, Shiloh, and HA are in the Top 5 for most state titles.
Since 2010 PA has had 15 star-ranked recruits. LRCA has had 10. Shiloh has 4. Name any other school with their exact enrollment numbers who's produced like that.
It helps when your 25 mile radius to pick from has a population of 700,000, 400,000, and 100,000. #1 find it really funny private schools have been dominate as you say since the 70s??
2003 - PA wins first State Championship. From the 70s - 2000s PA rarely made it into the playoffs and had 0 State championships. Shiloh Christian won their first SC in 1998. I think they started playing in the early 90s. Schools with more State championships - LR Central (30), Pine Bluff (23), Fort Smith Northside (14), Greenwood (10), El Dorado (9).
Since 2010 PA has had 15 star ranked recruits? As a AVID AR Razorback fan is this supposed to be a BAD thing? HMMM do I want schools in AR to increase number of star rated athletes that can then play for the U of A or less? Maybe it would be better if all the schools produced 0? If anything we need more schools like this to increase the talent on AR team and maybe they can compete in the SEC! Funny you threw Shiloh with 4! Is 4 really a bragging point for a school that "recruits" thats less than 1 a year. If the university of AR only AVG 4 players playing in the NFL in 11 years we would take that as a failure not a success!
Lastly it helps when your 25 mile radius has a population of 700,000??? Are you talking about the State of AR? Where in AR is there a population of 700,000??? Pulaski County has a population of roughly 392,000. Benton and Washington County combined has a population of roughly 536,000. Were you adding the 3 largest counties of the State and stating thats PA recruiting area? Why not throw Dallas into that market it would make for more impressive numbers (additional 6.2 million people)?
I just wish people would spend more time figuring how to make HS football in AR better rather than attacking the only good schools in the state. If you think moving PA up to 7A is going to fix things, they might be able to win 7A easier than 5A. Right now Rogers is leading 7A West with 2 wins. Southside is 0-3, Springdale is 0-3 (lost to a 6A Van Buren and 5A Farmington), Har Ber is 0-2, Rogers Heritage is 0-2, Fayetteville is 1-2. In 7A Central LR SW is 0-3, Central is 0-3, Catholic is 0-2. That means 8-16 teams combined have 1 win so far this year.
"Only good schools in the state".
What a stupid comment.
By the way, Pulaski, Saline, Faulkner, and Lonoke counties make up the meat of the Little Rock metro area. It's population is a little over 706,000 people.
Quote from: AirWarren on September 16, 2021, 02:01:53 pm"Only good schools in the state".
What a stupid comment.
By the way, Pulaski, Saline, Faulkner, and Lonoke counties make up the meat of the Little Rock metro area. It's population is a little over 706,000 people.
I never said the private schools were the only good schools in the state if you took it that way I am sorry. I meant people spend a lot of time attacking the best schools in the state. There is a reason why teams like Warren, Wynn, Nashville, Arkadelphia, Bryant, NLR, Greenwood, and Bentonville are good. They all have good coaches and good programs.
Why not keep adding more counties. I am sure Hot Springs kids are going to LR everyday for school so they can play football.
Quote from: rzrbackfan on September 16, 2021, 02:42:44 pmI never said the private schools were the only good schools in the state if you took it that way I am sorry. I meant people spend a lot of time attacking the best schools in the state. There is a reason why teams like Warren, Wynn, Nashville, Arkadelphia, Bryant, NLR, Greenwood, and Bentonville are good. They all have good coaches and good programs.
Why not keep adding more counties. I am sure Hot Springs kids are going to LR everyday for school so they can play football.
Fair enough on the top point.
As far as the metro, hot springs is not considered part of the LR/NLR Central Arkansas metro. Now, PA isn't going to turn down a stud who wants to come play and those peeble heppin parishioners at LRCA aren't going to let a 4.4 40 troubled kid from a troubled environment slip through the cracks either. Both would make it work for a kid from Hot springs.
Quote from: AirWarren on September 16, 2021, 03:08:31 pmFair enough on the top point.
As far as the metro, hot springs is not considered part of the LR/NLR Central Arkansas metro. Now, PA isn't going to turn down a stud who wants to come play and those peeble heppin parishioners at LRCA aren't going to let a 4.4 40 troubled kid from a troubled environment slip through the cracks either. Both would make it work for a kid from Hot springs.
Is warren telling that kid to go somewhere else? What about Nashville? What about junction city? What about Greenwood? What about Cabot? No? Didn't think so. Nobody is turning down kids coming to play for them. And every great program in the state is accused of recruiting by somebody at some point. People still talk about Frank recruiting kids to Barton. And maybe he did. I don't know. But it's not just the private schools. Period.
Quote from: RATTLER43 on May 19, 2021, 01:11:49 pmHere is my quote from 2019. I wasn't sure you would go read the 54 pages on the link that I sent to you.
Sorry that I'm late to the party. I'm a believer that my teams prepare to defeat any other teams whether they are public or private. We prepare with the knowledge that they may have advantages but such is life. We have competed while at or near the bottom of our classification in enrollment numbers for most of the past 15 years. We are a low socioeconomic and rural community. We liken it unto life itself. It is what you make of it. Yes, sometimes we do everything right and still don't win the state championships but nothing stops our drive for excellence. If a parent wants to take their child to Greenwood or Booneville where they win at football most of the time, we don't like it but we understand that winning is their top priority. I agree with a number of statements from each side. Private schools do possess some advantages. But so do public schools like GW and Bentonville. Not all private schools have advantages: Subiaco, Union Christian. Coaching has much to do with success yet I believe you must have the Jimmies and Joes as they say. Too many variables involved in success for me to worry about a few private schools dominating. The AAA has addressed it in the past and will again should enough administrators believe it is a problem. But as for me, I'll stick to teaching excellent work ethic, high expectations, do your best at anything you attempt on a daily basis, and then accept where the chips fall whether it is against larger schools, smaller schools, public schools, or private schools. Just my short, simple, rural take on this. Oh, I'll talk 2A girls Track and Field any time! Now, back to your regularly scheduled arguments... I'm going back to my 2A boards and Track and Field threads. See you over there AT! WPS. Lady Razorbacks cross country!!
I still believe in these values and ideals.
Thank you for recognizing that Subiaco is getting punished unfairly by the aaa.
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 20, 2015, 08:39:07 pmIt would not be an issue if there were an equivalent action available in the public school system - but there is not.
You know, the public school gets all my tax money. Not one red cent goes to the private school where my children actually attend. That is not an equivalent action.
Quote from: Wheremytax$go on October 02, 2021, 01:06:35 pmYou know, the public school gets all my tax money. Not one red cent goes to the private school where my children actually attend. That is not an equivalent action.
Boo hoo hoo.
Don't pay for private school. No one is twisting your arm.
Quote from: Wheremytax$go on October 02, 2021, 01:06:35 pmYou know, the public school gets all my tax money. Not one red cent goes to the private school where my children actually attend. That is not an equivalent action.
Your choice
Subiaco is the rule that proves the exception. It's a boarding school that doesn't have the luxury of bonding a peewee and junior high program from grade school on up. I don't know if they've won a junior high game since 1980. I think the AAA could and should vote an exemption from the 1-class bump for them.
If I understand the new rules correctly Subiaco will be move down one classification. Whether or not a school is moved up or down is based on there won lost record as well.
Quote from: Wheremytax$go on October 02, 2021, 01:06:35 pmYou know, the public school gets all my tax money. Not one red cent goes to the private school where my children actually attend. That is not an equivalent action.
I don't have kids of my own and never will yet I gladly pay my property taxes each year to go toward my local public school. It's called being a good citizen. I think no matter your fiscal ideas for government/taxes almost everyone thinks our tax dollars should go toward our youth before anything. Should I be on here too saying I shouldn't contribute to my local schools? Go take your terrible argument elsewhere for a choice you personally made to send your children to private school. I've even defended private schools through the reclassification argument on these threads but your post is baseless. Your thought process is part of the bigger issue we have in society that so many people no longer have a sense of community anymore. It's why when I travel to road games and still come across these towns who still have that community feel I have grown an appreciation for them.
Quote from: AirWarren on October 02, 2021, 01:22:19 pmBoo hoo hoo.
Don't pay for private school. No one is twisting your arm.
+1
Quote from: AirWarren on October 02, 2021, 01:22:19 pmBoo hoo hoo.
Don't pay for private school. No one is twisting your arm.
Quote from: beach bum on October 04, 2021, 02:07:44 pmI don't have kids of my own and never will yet I gladly pay my property taxes each year to go toward my local public school. It's called being a good citizen. I think no matter your fiscal ideas for government/taxes almost everyone thinks our tax dollars should go toward our youth before anything. Should I be on here too saying I shouldn't contribute to my local schools? Go take your terrible argument elsewhere for a choice you personally made to send your children to private school. I've even defended private schools through the reclassification argument on these threads but your post is baseless. Your thought process is part of the bigger issue we have in society that so many people no longer have a sense of community anymore. It's why when I travel to road games and still come across these towns who still have that community feel I have grown an appreciation for them.
Quote from: beach bum on October 04, 2021, 02:07:44 pmI don't have kids of my own and never will yet I gladly pay my property taxes each year to go toward my local public school. It's called being a good citizen. I think no matter your fiscal ideas for government/taxes almost everyone thinks our tax dollars should go toward our youth before anything. Should I be on here too saying I shouldn't contribute to my local schools? Go take your terrible argument elsewhere for a choice you personally made to send your children to private school. I've even defended private schools through the reclassification argument on these threads but your post is baseless. Your thought process is part of the bigger issue we have in society that so many people no longer have a sense of community anymore. It's why when I travel to road games and still come across these towns who still have that community feel I have grown an appreciation for them.
Quote from: beach bum on October 04, 2021, 02:07:44 pmI don't have kids of my own and never will yet I gladly pay my property taxes each year to go toward my local public school. It's called being a good citizen. I think no matter your fiscal ideas for government/taxes almost everyone thinks our tax dollars should go toward our youth before anything. Should I be on here too saying I shouldn't contribute to my local schools? Go take your terrible argument elsewhere for a choice you personally made to send your children to private school. I've even defended private schools through the reclassification argument on these threads but your post is baseless. Your thought process is part of the bigger issue we have in society that so many people no longer have a sense of community anymore. It's why when I travel to road games and still come across these towns who still have that community feel I have grown an appreciation for them.
Quote from: beach bum on October 04, 2021, 02:07:44 pmI don't have kids of my own and never will yet I gladly pay my property taxes each year to go toward my local public school. It's called being a good citizen. I think no matter your fiscal ideas for government/taxes almost everyone thinks our tax dollars should go toward our youth before anything. Should I be on here too saying I shouldn't contribute to my local schools? Go take your terrible argument elsewhere for a choice you personally made to send your children to private school. I've even defended private schools through the reclassification argument on these threads but your post is baseless. Your thought process is part of the bigger issue we have in society that so many people no longer have a sense of community anymore. It's why when I travel to road games and still come across these towns who still have that community feel I have grown an appreciation for them.
Quote from: beach bum on October 04, 2021, 02:07:44 pmI don't have kids of my own and never will yet I gladly pay my property taxes each year to go toward my local public school. It's called being a good citizen. I think no matter your fiscal ideas for government/taxes almost everyone thinks our tax dollars should go toward our youth before anything. Should I be on here too saying I shouldn't contribute to my local schools? Go take your terrible argument elsewhere for a choice you personally made to send your children to private school. I've even defended private schools through the reclassification argument on these threads but your post is baseless. Your thought process is part of the bigger issue we have in society that so many people no longer have a sense of community anymore. It's why when I travel to road games and still come across these towns who still have that community feel I have grown an appreciation for them.
Quote from: beach bum on October 04, 2021, 02:07:44 pmI don't have kids of my own and never will yet I gladly pay my property taxes each year to go toward my local public school. It's called being a good citizen. I think no matter your fiscal ideas for government/taxes almost everyone thinks our tax dollars should go toward our youth before anything. Should I be on here too saying I shouldn't contribute to my local schools? Go take your terrible argument elsewhere for a choice you personally made to send your children to private school. I've even defended private schools through the reclassification argument on these threads but your post is baseless. Your thought process is part of the bigger issue we have in society that so many people no longer have a sense of community anymore. It's why when I travel to road games and still come across these towns who still have that community feel I have grown an appreciation for them.
So which of you good citizens will support my children? Right now, I'm supporting mine and yours...which is part of the problem. It is not my job as a tax-paying citizen to support your family. My first responsibility is to my family, which is why I don't entrust my children to the public schools. And you're right, no one is twisting my arm, but they're sure as heck picking my pocket.
Quote from: Wheremytax$go on October 05, 2021, 07:49:14 pmSo which of you good citizens will support my children? Right now, I'm supporting mine and yours...which is part of the problem. It is not my job as a tax-paying citizen to support your family. My first responsibility is to my family, which is why I don't entrust my children to the public schools. And you're right, no one is twisting my arm, but they're sure as heck picking my pocket.
Haha.
My taxes pay for gubment programs that I don't agree with. And many other things.
If you remember correctly, and if my poor sap public school education taught me, there is a little thing called taxation without representation. Learned about it I believe in 9th grade civics at lowly Warren Jr high school.
Spit in one hand and crap in the other. Everyone pays taxes that they hate. I hate seeing my paycheck go to the gubment. I hate paying end of the year income taxes.
Boo. Hoo. Hoo. Save the BS "I care for my kids more than you".
The Fair comes once a year and today is not today. Sorry.
Quote from: Wheremytax$go on October 05, 2021, 07:49:14 pmSo which of you good citizens will support my children? Right now, I'm supporting mine and yours...which is part of the problem. It is not my job as a tax-paying citizen to support your family. My first responsibility is to my family, which is why I don't entrust my children to the public schools. And you're right, no one is twisting my arm, but they're sure as heck picking my pocket.
Do you get a tax return every year for your kids? Or break for your income taxes as a credit for having X amount of kids?
Yup. You do. You can thank AW's taxes. Ones of which I have no say to where they go. I don't give a rats arse about your kids. They ain't my problem. Why should my income taxes fuel your kids tax credit they give you?
Oh....pandemic checks. You get some pandemic checks? You getting a kid check for the pandemic? Not my problem if y'all starve but that check sure came out(will come out of) my taxes without my consent.
Taxation is theft. Send your kids where you want to send them. This is all far too dramatic most of the time. It's a game amongst teenagers who majority don't care about the outcome an hour after it's over.
Quote from: beach bum on October 04, 2021, 02:07:44 pmI don't have kids of my own and never will yet I gladly pay my property taxes each year to go toward my local public school. It's called being a good citizen. I think no matter your fiscal ideas for government/taxes almost everyone thinks our tax dollars should go toward our youth before anything. Should I be on here too saying I shouldn't contribute to my local schools? Go take your terrible argument elsewhere for a choice you personally made to send your children to private school. I've even defended private schools through the reclassification argument on these threads but your post is baseless. Your thought process is part of the bigger issue we have in society that so many people no longer have a sense of community anymore. It's why when I travel to road games and still come across these towns who still have that community feel I have grown an appreciation for them.
I am depressed to learn there is no Beach Bum, Jr. 😀. BTW, it's never too late to correct this!
Quote from: friscokid on October 04, 2021, 01:23:16 amSubiaco is the rule that proves the exception. It's a boarding school that doesn't have the luxury of bonding a peewee and junior high program from grade school on up. I don't know if they've won a junior high game since 1980. I think the AAA could and should vote an exemption from the 1-class bump for them.
It is time for the aaa to pay attention after 20+ years of suffering for this school (referring to football) Get them out of 8man and allow for legitimate 11 man football competition again.
Quote from: panther07 on July 21, 2021, 05:49:42 pmNick Smith transferring to NLR... crazy how this works. Where's the outrage?
Depending on how this goes, looks like this won't age well. Ruled ineligible for now. But they did make sure he was staying with his father who relocated and moved into the NLRSD area only 3 minutes away from the school, not within a 25 mile radius of NLR or outside the school zone.
Quote from: Trojan_rep on October 06, 2021, 02:56:38 pmIt is time for the aaa to pay attention after 20+ years of suffering for this school (referring to football) Get them out of 8man and allow for legitimate 11 man football competition again.
Part of the competitive balance factor is that private schools can also be dropped if they don't reach a minimum of 3 competitive balance points in the 4 year cycle. So in Subiaco's case before they got to they started playing 8 man, they would have dropped from 4A to 3A since they wouldn't have recorded any points for conference titles or winning a playoff game.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on October 25, 2021, 12:44:29 pmDepending on how this goes, looks like this won't age well. Ruled ineligible for now. But they did make sure he was staying with his father who relocated and moved into the NLRSD area only 3 minutes away from the school, not within a 25 mile radius of NLR or outside the school zone.
No no. I'm talking about the outrage here. In this arena. Nobody here showed up with their pitchforks. It aged fine.
Do you not see how what you said is actually and advantage in metro areas though? He moved a few miles and SHOULD be eligible. If it were a private move a few miles, he has to sit.
I want him eligible by the way
Quote from: panther07 on October 25, 2021, 01:00:48 pmNo no. I'm talking about the outrage here. In this arena. Nobody here showed up with their pitchforks. It aged fine.
Do you not see how what you said is actually and advantage in metro areas though? He moved a few miles and SHOULD be eligible. If it were a private move a few miles, he has to sit.
I want him eligible by the way
Moving isn easy for a lot people. Not a lot of parents are willing to move homes just for their kids to be eligible at another school for 2-3 years. Some couldn move even if they wanted to, or couldn't afford it. Whereas a private school for competitive purposes have a 25 mile radius in which a kid can go to school at without the inconvenience of having to move residencies.
If NLR was a private school, Smith's dad wouldn't have had to move anywhere, even if he lived in Conway, Cabot, or Benton. decent sized metro areas benefit both public and private schools in different ways regarding access to athletes.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on October 25, 2021, 07:42:01 pmMoving isn easy for a lot people. Not a lot of parents are willing to move homes just for their kids to be eligible at another school for 2-3 years. Some couldn move even if they wanted to, or couldn't afford it. Whereas a private school for competitive purposes have a 25 mile radius in which a kid can go to school at without the inconvenience of having to move residencies.
If NLR was a private school, Smith's dad wouldn't have had to move anywhere, even if he lived in Conway, Cabot, or Benton. decent sized metro areas benefit both public and private schools in different ways regarding access to athletes.
Sure. He could go to school there. Just as he could at NLR. But he has to sit. He's ineligible. Just as he was ruled here, if they stick with it.
In searcy, if a player wanted to transfer from Searcy High to HA, he has to sit a year. Period.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on October 25, 2021, 12:50:25 pmPart of the competitive balance factor is that private schools can also be dropped if they don't reach a minimum of 3 competitive balance points in the 4 year cycle. So in Subiaco's case before they got to they started playing 8 man, they would have dropped from 4A to 3A since they wouldn't have recorded any points for conference titles or winning a playoff game.
My understanding is you can't ever go below your one class bump they put in place however long ago.
Quote from: panther07 on October 25, 2021, 07:49:47 pmSure. He could go to school there. Just as he could at NLR. But he has to sit. He's ineligible. Just as he was ruled here, if they stick with it.
In searcy, if a player wanted to transfer from Searcy High to HA, he has to sit a year. Period.
He has to sit, but the trade-off is he doesnt have the inconvenience of having to move residencies. Its a mixed benefit. now of course you dont wanna transfer your junior year or you are done, but if players and parents play it right, they can attend freshman year and still have 3 years of eligibility like a lot of 10-12 high schools in the smaller towns. all without moving.
Like i said, its benefits and tradeoffs to both public and private schools in metro areas. But the same way a one year sitout can make transferring to a private school difficult, school zones and cost of living/quality of areas can make it tricky for public to public transfers.
HA could have kids all over searcy or white county in general in jr high in time to be eligible all 4 years in high school, versus some public schools who can only have a fraction of the town to have kids because of school zones. Put it this way, if Searcy had 3 main public high schools, all three would have to split the city to have students due to zones, whereas HA could pick any kid from any where not just in Searcy, but in their 25 mile radius. There in itself lies the main advantage, especially the lower in classification you go with all sports.
Quote from: panther07 on October 25, 2021, 07:57:18 pmMy understanding is you can't ever go below your one class bump they put in place however long ago.
from the article i read, they didn make mention of staying in the same class regardless. they said if you get 2 points or fewer, you can be downgraded. that would work for teams like Subiaco and Baptist Prep in football.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on October 25, 2021, 07:42:01 pmMoving isn easy for a lot people. Not a lot of parents are willing to move homes just for their kids to be eligible at another school for 2-3 years. Some couldn move even if they wanted to, or couldn't afford it. Whereas a private school for competitive purposes have a 25 mile radius in which a kid can go to school at without the inconvenience of having to move residencies.
If NLR was a private school, Smith's dad wouldn't have had to move anywhere, even if he lived in Conway, Cabot, or Benton. decent sized metro areas benefit both public and private schools in different ways regarding access to athletes.
I can't believe how people can't seem to understand the 25-mile rule. I will try to simplify this.
The 25-mile radius is for any student transferring to say Shiloh and lives within a 25-mile radius is
not eligible to play. So basically, nobody from NWA can transfer to Shiloh and play without sitting out a year.
25 miles is the current rule. A 50-mile radius is worse for the privates. A 1-mile radius would be to Shiloh's benefit or any private school.
So one more time. Big number bad, little number good. It is not a school district or anything equivalent to one.
That number is the opposite of how most on here reference it in post.
Quote from: $aintMaximu$ on October 26, 2021, 02:17:26 pmI can't believe how people can't seem to understand the 25-mile rule. I will try to simplify this.
The 25-mile radius is for any student transferring to say Shiloh and lives within a 25-mile radius is not eligible to play. So basically, nobody from NWA can transfer to Shiloh and play without sitting out a year.
25 miles is the current rule. A 50-mile radius is worse for the privates. A 1-mile radius would be to Shiloh's benefit or any private school.
So one more time. Big number bad, little number good. It is not a school district or anything equivalent to one.
That number is the opposite of how most on here reference it in post.
I can't believe how people are seriously trying to make out this 25-mile rule as if its some kind of major disadvantage while editing what the AAA handbook actually says.
"A student transferring from a public school to a nonpublic school may meet the domicile requirement and be
immediately eligible for interscholastic athletic participation if the student enrolls by July 1 before entering the 7th grade... Students enrolling in a nonpublic school after the period provided for immediate eligibility above shall be ineligible for 365 days.
After July 1 prior to entering the 7th grade, a student whose parents live outside a 25-mile radius of a nonpublic school must make a bona fide move to within a 25-mile radius of the school that the student will attend to become eligible."
So in other words using Shiloh for example, they can enroll any kid they want from Springdale, Fayetteville, Bentonville, and essentially all of NWA before they reach 7th grade to where they have all 4 years of eligibility in high school. All while a vast majority the parents in that 25 mile radius have the convenience of not having to move or switch residences.
And even if they don't reach the deadline, private high schools are 9-12 schools with a 4 year window of eligibility, which is what a lot of people don't catch. Most public high schools (especially from 5A on down) are 10-12 high schools with a 3 year window of varsity eligibility. It's nothing for a private school transfer to sit his freshman year at Shiloh and still have 3 years of eligibility just like most of the 4A public schools he plays.
Quote from: Sweet Feet on October 26, 2021, 04:10:27 pmI can't believe how people are seriously trying to make out this 25-mile rule as if its some kind of major disadvantage while editing what the AAA handbook actually says.
"A student transferring from a public school to a nonpublic school may meet the domicile requirement and be immediately eligible for interscholastic athletic participation if the student enrolls by July 1 before entering the 7th grade... Students enrolling in a nonpublic school after the period provided for immediate eligibility above shall be ineligible for 365 days. After July 1 prior to entering the 7th grade, a student whose parents live outside a 25-mile radius of a nonpublic school must make a bona fide move to within a 25-mile radius of the school that the student will attend to become eligible."
So in other words using Shiloh for example, they can enroll any kid they want from Springdale, Fayetteville, Bentonville, and essentially all of NWA before they reach 7th grade to where they have all 4 years of eligibility in high school. All while a vast majority the parents in that 25 mile radius have the convenience of not having to move or switch residences.
And even if they don't reach the deadline, private high schools are 9-12 schools with a 4 year window of eligibility, which is what a lot of people don't catch. Most public high schools (especially from 5A on down) are 10-12 high schools with a 3 year window of varsity eligibility. It's nothing for a private school transfer to sit his freshman year at Shiloh and still have 3 years of eligibility just like most of the 4A public schools he plays.
It's simply your opinion that sitting out isn't a big deal. My opinion is it is a big deal and it matters. I know you feel very enlightened on the Subject, but you're now arguing opinion.
Quote from: panther07 on October 26, 2021, 05:15:52 pmIt's simply your opinion that sitting out isn't a big deal. My opinion is it is a big deal and it matters. I know you feel very enlightened on the Subject, but you're now arguing opinion.
Its opinion on the perception of sitting out, but the facts remain the same. You still can have 3 years of eligibility as a private school transfer like a lot of 10-12 Public High Schools with only 3 years of varsity eligibility. I base my opinion of sitting out on that fact
Find me one kid with the slightest bit of competitive bone in his body that wants to sit out a year willingly?
........... You won't! It is a massive deal that a kid who goes to a private school has to sit out.
Panther07, Coach McClellan told any player that played at Barton that they must live in the district. Not many private school kids would have started in Bartons hay day. I left and went to Barton because I wanted to be coached by The Greatest of all time.
As far as private schools, there seems to be way more recruitment and scholarships being given out now than in the early to mid 2000's. PA has more kids on the sideline now than ever before. Teams like them and Harding should be one classification above where they compete because they can cook their books.
Quote from: bartonbear53 on November 27, 2021, 07:56:12 amPanther07, Coach McClellan told any player that played at Barton that they must live in the district. Not many private school kids would have started in Bartons hay day. I left and went to Barton because I wanted to be coached by The Greatest of all time.
As far as private schools, there seems to be way more recruitment and scholarships being given out now than in the early to mid 2000's. PA has more kids on the sideline now than ever before. Teams like them and Harding should be one classification above where they compete because they can cook their books.
I thought they already are one class above where their numbers show? Isn't Shiloh already playing schools double their enrollment and PA sometimes three times its enrollment? I think dwindling participation for football in schools have helped widen the gap for private schools where I feel they have been not hit as hard as the majority of public schools. The thing is how is that the private schools fault? Its more a socioeconomic thing than a recruiting issue and again that is no fault to private school kids. I do believe in helping give opportunities to underprivileged but at the same time you shouldn't punish those who are thriving.
On a side note I appreciate your insight as you were apart of one of the best programs at one time in Arkansas history coming from Barton.