Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time

[RATTLER43]

Reading about Sidney Moncrief. Man, he was good. HOF play but not quite long enough and in too small a market to get support needed.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1120058/1/index.htm

[RATTLER43]

While reading it was asked who was the 2nd best shooting guard of the 80s: Drexler or Moncrief?  I put it to you that Moncrief was the better player but length of career puts Drexler ahead. Drexler was in the finals a couple of times as well. Moncrief just could not get past the Dr. J/Moses Malone Sixers or the Larry Bird Celtics although the Bucks were great during that era. Moncrief was good at every phase of the game.

[AB™]

While reading it was asked who was the 2nd best shooting guard of the 80s: Drexler or Moncrief?  I put it to you that Moncrief was the better player but length of career puts Drexler ahead. Drexler was in the finals a couple of times as well. Moncrief just could not get past the Dr. J/Moses Malone Sixers or the Larry Bird Celtics although the Bucks were great during that era. Moncrief was good at every phase of the game.

Well, it's not like Clyde Drexler was kept from a championship by chopped liver.  He was the best player on two different NBA Finals runner-up teams, and lost once to the Bad Boy Pistons, and once to that Michael Jordan guy who was in the middle of a ridiculous 3 years Finals run where he put up insane numbers.  Clyde definitely wasn't the defensive player Moncrief was (although he was a very solid defender) but on the flip-side, Moncrief wasn't the offensive player Clyde was. 

I personally rank Clyde slightly higher than Moncrief, but part of that reasoning is due to Moncrief's career not being very long.  Had Moncrief been able to stay healthy I"m almost positive he would have gone on and done enough to be considered a top 30-40 player all-time.  Instead, he lies (in most lists I've seen) in the 50-75 range, usually closer to to the 60-75 range.

[Father Guido]

This all brings up thought for another good thread.  Not sure what it should be called though.  Thought about calling it the "Best NBA Players with LESS than 10 years", but when I got to looking, Maravich played 10 seasons, (not all of them healthy).  Bernard King played 14 yrs.

What I'm wondering is, who are some of the guys who, like Maravich, put up some incredible numbers over a 2-3-4 year span, but career's never panned out after that due to injuries, drugs, or what ever reason.  There are a lot of those guys out there.  World B. Free?  Sam Bowie?...

[RATTLER43]

We might have to put some specifics. Bill Walton only had a handful of full seasons. I think he fits the category. David Thompson. Andrew Toney, Shawn Kemp. Reggie Lewis. Yao. Grant Hill*

Keep it going on this thread. Seeing if it can hit 2,000 before next basketball season.

[RATTLER43]

Brad Daugherty and Maurice Stokes. Read this article to gain insight.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/steve_aschburner/01/03/stokes.shortened.careers/

[Father Guido]

We might have to put some specifics. Bill Walton only had a handful of full seasons. I think he fits the category. David Thompson. Andrew Toney, Shawn Kemp. Reggie Lewis. Yao. Grant Hill*

Keep it going on this thread. Seeing if it can hit 2,000 before next basketball season.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out how to quantify or what ever, but when I got to looking at some, like Bernard King I noticed that he actually played 14 years quite a few of those were NOT spectacular, but 14 years is considerably above the NBA average.

[RATTLER43]

I think David Thompson is the best I have seen that showed evidence of true greatness then fell off the cliff for whatever reason; Brad Daugherty was possibly the most consistently good then was gone; Bill Walton had best opportunity for overall greatness individually and teamwise, then.....; Stokes was before my time but how sad.

I think Bernard King, Bill Walton, and Grant Hill all had long careers which had much taken out during the tenures but still fit your model. I am sure there are others.

[AB™]

Bill Simmons  (I get a lot of my NBA historical perspective from him) always says something like...

And this is one I've heard him bring up recently...

Bird was essentially an 'A+' for all of his healthy career, which wasn't even a decade long.  Would you rather have peak Bird for just 5 years, or have Dirk who has been a solid 'B+' to 'A' type player for 12 years and counting?

Think of it this way, peak Bird was a transcendent player who's peak is only eclipsed by 3-5 players in NBA history.  Dirk has never approached peak Larry Bird but he's still been a very, very good player for 12 seasons.

[RATTLER43]

I don't think you can go wrong with either but.....give me Bird for 5 peak years!

[AB™]

I don't think you can go wrong with either but.....give me Bird for 5 peak years!

Yeah, same here.  Bird in his peak when he had like 5 transcendentally great seasons you were almost guaranteed at least 2 championships in any era.  Even though Dirk has been really, really, really good for 12 years, he's still got just 1 championship to show for it during that time. 

That argument I think works best when you get down to the players ranked in the 25+ range and comparing similar players at the same  position.

[Father Guido]

I don't think you can go wrong with either but.....give me Bird for 5 peak years!

Yeah, same here.  Bird in his peak when he had like 5 transcendentally great seasons you were almost guaranteed at least 2 championships in any era.  Even though Dirk has been really, really, really good for 12 years, he's still got just 1 championship to show for it during that time. 

That argument I think works best when you get down to the players ranked in the 25+ range and comparing similar players at the same  position.

Here's a thought for you.  Take Bird and put him on the Mav's teams Dirk had to play with, ...and Dirk and put HIM on the Celtics teams Bird played with,...and how many Championships do each of them end up with?

[RATTLER43]

Put Dirk with Celtics and they still get one but lose the special one that even Bird says Lakers should have swept in '84 and get beat by Dr. J Sixers in '81. Put Bird on Mavs and they have two right now. Of course it is all speculation but that is how I have it.

[AB™]

:ut Dirk with Celtics and they still get one but lose the special one that even Bird says Lakers should have swept in '84 and get beat by Dr. J Sixers in '81. Put Bird on Mavs and they have two right now. Of course it is all speculation but that is how I have it.

I think the Mavs would have won in '06 with Bird in place of Dirk.  I think those Celtics teams get at least one, maybe 2 with Dirk in the 80's.  I'm not so sure, though, if the 2007 Mavs make a run at the title with Bird instead of Dirk.  Does Bird take a 66-16 Mavs team with the one seed and lose in the 1st round to Golden State??  Surely not, right?

[RATTLER43]

I agree. Mavs with Bird get two if not more. I still think Celts only get one with Dirk in place of Bird in that era.

[RATTLER43]

Bird just willed his team to be better and to win when they should not be able to win. Some athletes over the years have something about them that is indescribable but still palpable in their presence. In my lifetime, few have possessed it: Bird, Magic, MJ, Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, John Elway, The Great One, Mark Messier. The list is very small.

[RATTLER43]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson 
4. Larry Bird 
5. Kobe Bryant 
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8.  Wilt Chamberlain
9.  Tim Duncan
10. Dr. J 
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Hakeem
14. Rick Barry
15. KG
16. Bob Pettit
17. Moses Malone
18. D Wade
19. Charles Barkley
20. Hondo
21. James Worthy
22. Kevin McHale
23. Dirk
24. Karl Malone
25. Scottie Pippen
26. John Stockton
27. George Mikan
28. George Gervin
29. Dan Issel
30. Isaiah Thomas
31. Lebron 
32. David Robinson
33. Sidney Moncrief/Bill Walton(each would have been much higher but had shortened careers due to injuries)
34. Paul Pierce
35. Elgin Baylor
36. Steve Nash
37. Bobby Jones
38. Elvin Hayes
39. Earl the Pearl
40. Patrick Ewing
41. Artis Gilmore
42. 'nique
43. Clyde Drexler
44. Bob Cousy
45. Bob Lanier
46. Dennis Johnson
47. Jamaal Wilkes
48. Bob McAdoo
49. Pistol Pete
50. Dennis Rodman

Lebron now has opportunity to move into top ten. Lead Heat to title this year and I put him at 10. If Duncan leads Spurs to title then I move him up one spot.  Wade up to 13 with another title. 

[Breitontime]

Lol, any list without LBJ in the top two is laughable.

He is arguably the best player to ever step on the court, if not the best, most certainly the second.

[RATTLER43]

If the ranking was for pure athleticism then maybe.  For regular season then yes.  But for all time.  No.  I would take Magic, Bird, Kareem, or Kobe in prime over Lebron.  they were driven.  Had "it" quality which Lebron lacks. 

[sixthman]

1.  Michael Jordan
2.  Wilt Chamberland
3.  Magic Johnson
4.  Larry Bird
5.  Dr. J
6.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7.  Jerry West
8.  Pete Maravich
9.  Bill Russell
10. Kobe Bryant

[olddog79]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson 
4. Larry Bird 
5. Kobe Bryant 
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8.  Wilt Chamberlain
9.  Tim Duncan
10. Dr. J 
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Hakeem
14. Rick Barry
15. KG
16. Bob Pettit
17. Moses Malone
18. D Wade
19. Charles Barkley
20. Hondo
21. James Worthy
22. Kevin McHale
23. Dirk
24. Karl Malone
25. Scottie Pippen
26. John Stockton
27. George Mikan
28. George Gervin
29. Dan Issel
30. Isaiah Thomas
31. Lebron 
32. David Robinson
33. Sidney Moncrief/Bill Walton(each would have been much higher but had shortened careers due to injuries)
34. Paul Pierce
35. Elgin Baylor
36. Steve Nash
37. Bobby Jones
38. Elvin Hayes
39. Earl the Pearl
40. Patrick Ewing
41. Artis Gilmore
42. 'nique
43. Clyde Drexler
44. Bob Cousy
45. Bob Lanier
46. Dennis Johnson
47. Jamaal Wilkes
48. Bob McAdoo
49. Pistol Pete
50. Dennis Rodman

Lebron now has opportunity to move into top ten. Lead Heat to title this year and I put him at 10. If Duncan leads Spurs to title then I move him up one spot.  Wade up to 13 with another title. 

Need to add Bernard King in there somewhere. He was a scoring machine back in the day.

[RATTLER43]

He, Alex English, and other great scorers are just outside my top 50. The Pistol barely got in. But I saw him play. Was unstoppable at times.

[Lionheart88]

I'm not a huge NBA guy, but I did follow the league starting in the mid 90s, dropping off in the last five years or so.  I'm a history buff and a sports buff, so I've read up on the history of the game.  Even so, I'm probably the least qualified poster in the thread, but here goes (as they come to mind, no particular order):

Jordan
Wilt
Bill Russell
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Dr. J
Shaq
Jerry West
Karl Malone

[urban legend2]

Just to throw mine out there...

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Robertson
8. Duncan
9. O'Neal
10. Bryant

[RATTLER43]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson 
4. Larry Bird 
5. Kobe Bryant 
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaq
8.  Wilt Chamberlain
9.  Tim Duncan
10. Dr. J 
11. Jerry West
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Hakeem
14. Rick Barry

I now have Lebron at 11 and Wade at 14 just behind Oscar Robertson.  Lebron really scaling the heights now. 

[mack]

Lol, any list without LBJ in the top two is laughable.

He is arguably the best player to ever step on the court, if not the best, most certainly the second.

Politically we are in tune.  On LeBron, not so much.  MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem and Kobe, then maybe LeBron.

[Romeo]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Bill Russell
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon (dominated Shaq, Patrick Ewing and David Robinson at their prime)
9. Shaquille O-Neal
10. Kobe Bryant

[Breitontime]

Maybe, Mack.

LBJ has two titles, two championship series MVP's, four regular season MVP's. Is statistically even with MJ at the same age. He's in his prime, will get better.

Had MJ not tried the whole baseball thing, it probably wouldn't even be a talking point, but, he did.

[Lionheart88]

Maybe, Mack.

LBJ has two titles, two championship series MVP's, four regular season MVP's. Is statistically even with MJ at the same age. He's in his prime, will get better.

Had MJ not tried the whole baseball thing, it probably wouldn't even be a talking point, but, he did.

Bill Russell had 11 titles, 5 NBA MVPs, and Finals MVP wasn't awarded until the year he retired, but is named for him.  That's a guy that generally isn't considered as good as Jordan.

Wilt was twice a champion, 4 times an NBA MVP, once a Finals MVP, and is still the only man to score a hundred in an NBA game.  He's another who generally isn't considered as good as Jordan.

When LeBron wins a third straight, quits and tries another sport because he's bored, comes back and wins three more, we can start talking about him being in Jordan's vicinity, but it should probably be noted that he's playing in an era where the League's talent level as a whole isn't what it used to be.  Assemble whatever all star team you want from current players and the '92 Dream Team would still beat them without even needing all their depth.

[Breitontime]

And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

[cuckoobird]

And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted. And as a person who hasn't watched the NBA since right before Jordan's last title but watched the last 2 games of the finals this year, I can honestly say that LBJ only plays good hard defense 1 out of 4 times down the court and Jordan played every time down. I haven't been eased into seeing no defense being played over the years so it was a shock to me.

[Valleysports]

And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted.

When a players name can't be mentioned, without being compared to the greatest that ever played the game - there is a reason.  Every mistake or basket made is compared to Jordan.  That is confirmation! 

[cuckoobird]

And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted.

When a players name can't be mentioned, without being compared to the greatest that ever played the game - there is a reason.  Every mistake or basket made is compared to Jordan.  That is confirmation! 

You are right with part of this but only the people who think he plays as good as Jordan starts with their names together. Ones who sees he couldn't hold Jordan's jock have to defend it by putting the two together. Like I stated before the game has totally changed from Jordan's era and not in a good way. BTW you never saw Jordan throw up a brick ever much less with the game on the line.

[zebradynasty]

And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted. And as a person who hasn't watched the NBA since right before Jordan's last title but watched the last 2 games of the finals this year, I can honestly say that LBJ only plays good hard defense 1 out of 4 times down the court and Jordan played every time down. I haven't been eased into seeing no defense being played over the years so it was a shock to me.

I wouldn't say a player that's 6'-8" 250 lbs and can play 4 positions on the court is clumsy! What LBJ can do at his size is what makes him one of the best of all time. No he's not as slippery as Jordan or Kobe but heck look at the size difference. There has never been a player LBJ's size that does what he can do Magic is close but he was not near the athlete LBJ. A lot of people point to the lack of championships or use them as gauge of greatness. For sure that is important but should not be the only measuring stick. If so are we to believe that Bill Russell is nearly two time better than Jordan?!

I am not saying he's the best of all time yet but he up there with the best! 

[cuckoobird]

And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted. And as a person who hasn't watched the NBA since right before Jordan's last title but watched the last 2 games of the finals this year, I can honestly say that LBJ only plays good hard defense 1 out of 4 times down the court and Jordan played every time down. I haven't been eased into seeing no defense being played over the years so it was a shock to me.

I wouldn't say a player that's 6'-8" 250 lbs and can play 4 positions on the court is clumsy! What LBJ can do at his size is what makes him one of the best of all time. No he's not as slippery as Jordan or Kobe but heck look at the size difference. There has never been a player LBJ's size that does what he can do Magic is close but he was not near the athlete LBJ. A lot of people point to the lack of championships or use them as gauge of greatness. For sure that is important but should not be the only measuring stick. If so are we to believe that Bill Russell is nearly two time better than Jordan?!

I am not saying he's the best of all time yet but he up there with the best!

Magic may have been the smartest player ever. He didn't turn the ball over much for his size. Athletic ability No, doesn't come close to LBJ.

[Lionheart88]

And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

It's a lot easier to look good in an ear wih a comparative dearth of talent.  There's probably not four guys playing right now that could've made the Dream Team, and they'd a water on the bench.  Shaq didn't even make the Dream Team, and he's right up there with LeBron and Kobe as most dominant players post-Jordan.

[Valleysports]

And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted.

When a players name can't be mentioned, without being compared to the greatest that ever played the game - there is a reason.  Every mistake or basket made is compared to Jordan.  That is confirmation! 

You are right with part of this but only the people who think he plays as good as Jordan starts with their names together. Ones who sees he couldn't hold Jordan's jock have to defend it by putting the two together. Like I stated before the game has totally changed from Jordan's era and not in a good way. BTW you never saw Jordan throw up a brick ever much less with the game on the line.

Actually this is inaccurate!  Go look at the end of the Spurs vs Miami thread, as soon as it was over the first thing said was - well Labron still isn't as good as Jordan.    Why was that even brought up?  It's the Haters and their fear that he's on track to be as good as Jordan who won't shut up.     Go look at the Labron Thread, I'll bet without looking myself, a Labron Hater jumped in and tried to compare him to Jordan...  Now I'm going to look... 

[RATTLER43]

I am not a Lebron fan but I recognize greatness.  I have him at #11 on my all time list at this point in his career. Could hit top 5 within 2 years.  But give it time.  Many players have great runs.  Let's see if Lebron continues toward his unmatched potential.  He could very well become the greatest ever or hit a wall or plateau like other athletes have. Just enjoy his game because it is great. 

[Valleysports]

Thank You ^ +1 

[HorseFeathers]

And there it is. The "team." This is individual. Individually, LBJ is every bit as good as Jordan.

LBJ is too clumsy to be like Mike. You never saw Jordan go up and mishandle the ball twice in a row or even once when it counted.

When a players name can't be mentioned, without being compared to the greatest that ever played the game - there is a reason.  Every mistake or basket made is compared to Jordan.  That is confirmation! 

You are right with part of this but only the people who think he plays as good as Jordan starts with their names together. Ones who sees he couldn't hold Jordan's jock have to defend it by putting the two together. Like I stated before the game has totally changed from Jordan's era and not in a good way. BTW you never saw Jordan throw up a brick ever much less with the game on the line.

This link says Jordan did throw up some bricks with games on the line....

[RATTLER43]

All greats have.  Saw Bird miss one against Lakers back in the day. I just knew it was in.  Couldn't believe Lakers let home get the clean look then couldn't believe he missed. 

[RATTLER43]

Also saw Magic be plagued with turnovers in his first finals vs. celtics and DJ.

[HorseFeathers]

Maybe, Mack.

LBJ has two titles, two championship series MVP's, four regular season MVP's. Is statistically even with MJ at the same age. He's in his prime, will get better.

Had MJ not tried the whole baseball thing, it probably wouldn't even be a talking point, but, he did.

Bill Russell had 11 titles, 5 NBA MVPs, and Finals MVP wasn't awarded until the year he retired, but is named for him.  That's a guy that generally isn't considered as good as Jordan.

Wilt was twice a champion, 4 times an NBA MVP, once a Finals MVP, and is still the only man to score a hundred in an NBA game.  He's another who generally isn't considered as good as Jordan.

When LeBron wins a third straight, quits and tries another sport because he's bored, comes back and wins three more, we can start talking about him being in Jordan's vicinity, but it should probably be noted that he's playing in an era where the League's talent level as a whole isn't what it used to be.  Assemble whatever all star team you want from current players and the '92 Dream Team would still beat them without even needing all their depth.

GOt one of those titles as a player/coach to...

[Breitontime]

Didn't Russell start in an eight team league, and finish with twelve?

Probability of winning was much greater then.

[RATTLER43]

Began with 8; finished in 14 team league. 

[Breitontime]

Truth of it is, it's harder to win a title now than then.

Especially when you have Stern stepping in like he did with Paul to the Lakers bit.

[cuckoobird]

Maciks and birds first finals were rookie year werent they? Or am i thinking wrong

[RATTLER43]

Magic's yes.  Bird no.   Magic and Lakers vs. Dr. J and Sixers that first year.  Bird and Boston over Houston in year two.

[cuckoobird]

So lets not compare a rookie year in the finals with someone who is 28 yo and in his 3rd finals. Unless we are going to say magics rookie year he was as good as lbj now

[Breitontime]

There are rooks in the finals every year. That comes in on the team part.