• Welcome to Fearless Friday Bulletin Boards. Please login or sign up.

 FF is powered by:        Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Culture/tradition question

Started by Rick Swines, November 05, 2018, 06:29:31 am

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Rick Swines

Some friends and I were talking about how shocking the paragould/gct score was and we discussed a question. How come valley view can compete for the playoffs each year, or harrison compete for a state title, or alma compete in the west? But tech and paragould rarely win 3 games.

It's easy to say coaching but gct has had numerous proven coaches over the years (not sure about paragould).

If cockrell or wells took the job at gct ot paragould could they win?

incogneto

Some places are just chock full talent but also full of people with losing mentality.  Winners that move into that area get wise and move out or just simply aren't enough to stem the tide of losing mentality.  You can see these places because the junior high program is competitive but in HS football they falter because it takes work to be good not simply talent.

Some places there is legitimately not many athletes and there is a losing mentality.  These places are where good coaches go to die.  Mountain Home comes to mind.

Then there are some places with not much talent but the mentality isn't bad.  Beebe in most years.  Some years they have better talent, but most years they don't have much talent.  Bauxite is changing their mentality.  The thing about these places is they will rob other places of talent because winners won't stick around losers if they have a choice to leave.

Missco

Those schools are basketball minded places. The admin. Won't do what's neccessary to change the mentality. Paragould had enough talent to win 4 or 5 games.

OB11

This is such a hard thing to explain. Both of these schools have great facilities (can't believe Tech has not built a football stadium on the new high school campus though) that any 5A school would love to have. I think this is a case of two schools being so bad for so long that the expectation is to be unsuccessful.

Coaches can talk about changing the culture and mindset of players and the community, but it is such a hard thing to do. Especially if another sport is having success. Football is hard and not everyone is willing to put in the work to be successful at it. Not saying players and coaches at these schools don't put in the work...but it takes a change in mindset more than anything and I'm not sure these schools have done that. This would have been the PERFECT year for one of these schools to make a push at a playoff run with all the parity in their conference.

hogjay

Talent, administration, community, and parents are all more important than coaching.

tmycjy

Quote from: Missco on November 05, 2018, 09:08:37 am
Those schools are basketball minded places. The admin. Won't do what's neccessary to change the mentality. Paragould had enough talent to win 4 or 5 games.

He right On there wynne is a prime example of what going on people in win care about football
And it shows now look at are basketball program people could care less

InYoGrill


Excellent conversation on this thread from each one of you! Look at Cabot. I went to school there. For the most part unless you have a stud athlete or two move in, Cabot has very average talent. Roster numbers are larger last couple decades because its a ever growing school compared to the size of the town. But the mentality of being a Cabot Panther is you are expected to win every game and go to the playoffs every year. Usually one maybe two rounds so 9-3, 8-4, 7-4 are usually typical Cabot team records. Lot more wins than losses most years. Look at the roster and you will not see many college playing athletes but you will see hard working determined to win players that love to play the game and win.

HeberFan



Winning a lot of games, helps a school's culture and tradition. So simple!  :o)

TrenchHogs

Cabot has two kids with offers from ASU, another with an offer as a walk on at Arkansas and several with offers from smaller schools like Arkansas tech and harding. They also had a kid sign with Louisiana Monroe and he had offers from several places including Memphis.

Beebe has more talent than they are given credit for. They have potentially one of the top running backs in the state in Taylor Boyce, the only reason most haven't heard of him is his size. (only 5'6)I believe their biggest problem is depth due to the style of ball they play. I have coached at Beebe and can attest to this.

The problem with both of these schools is the style of ball they play. Kids these days don't want to do the 3 yards and a cloud of dust stuff. Cabot will be getting a new coach next season so we will see the changes their. Some of Beebe's biggest and most athletic kids would rather not play than to be in that system.


TrenchHogs

Knowing what I do about Paragould and GCT, I believe the issue is their mentality. They aren't willing to do what it takes to be successful in football. They are content winning just a couple games a year.

Personally, I think they should merge into one school. Doesn't make much sense in my opinion to stay how they are now. Merge the schools, combine the athletes, win a few more ball games. You improve depth and can put better athletes on the field together. Just my opinion though

HeberFan

Quote from: TrenchHogs on November 05, 2018, 01:12:58 pm
Cabot has two kids with offers from ASU, another with an offer as a walk on at Arkansas and several with offers from smaller schools like Arkansas tech and harding. They also had a kid sign with Louisiana Monroe and he had offers from several places including Memphis.

Beebe has more talent than they are given credit for. They have potentially one of the top running backs in the state in Taylor Boyce, the only reason most haven't heard of him is his size. (only 5'6)I believe their biggest problem is depth due to the style of ball they play. I have coached at Beebe and can attest to this.

The problem with both of these schools is the style of ball they play. Kids these days don't want to do the 3 yards and a cloud of dust stuff. Cabot will be getting a new coach next season so we will see the changes their. Some of Beebe's biggest and most athletic kids would rather not play than to be in that system.

Think more kids want an offer to "walk off" at Arkansas.

TrenchHogs

Quote from: HeberFan on November 05, 2018, 01:18:37 pm
Think more kids want an offer to "walk off" at Arkansas.

;D ;D haha that is probably true this year....

JessieP

I think coaching and tradition/culture can overcome lack of talent. Look at Batesville, over the past 20 years they have consistently been a top tier team. Over that time they have had 2 players play D1 Power 5 football. They've had a hand full of players play lower level college ball but it would be less than 20. Over that time they have won a state title, been to WMS 5 times and in the Semi's 8 times. All doing so without college type players. Conversely there is no culture of basketball, We are the Washington Generals and turn everyone else into the Globetrotters.

HeberFan

Quote from: JessieP on November 05, 2018, 02:36:09 pm
I think coaching and tradition/culture can overcome lack of talent. Look at Batesville, over the past 20 years they have consistently been a top tier team. Over that time they have had 2 players play D1 Power 5 football. They've had a hand full of players play lower level college ball but it would be less than 20. Over that time they have won a state title, been to WMS 5 times and in the Semi's 8 times. All doing so without college type players. Conversely there is no culture of basketball, We are the Washington Generals and turn everyone else into the Globetrotters.

I liked when the Globetrotters made a guest appearance on Scooby Doo !

PokeyRedskinStudentScout

I feel that both Paragould and GCT's problems are that they accept the fact that they don't have the crop of talent like there is available in Jonesboro, yet don't try anything to solve their problems by recruiting their respective schools well

Overdahill

Quote from: JessieP on November 05, 2018, 02:36:09 pm
I think coaching and tradition/culture can overcome lack of talent. Look at Batesville, over the past 20 years they have consistently been a top tier team. Over that time they have had 2 players play D1 Power 5 football. They've had a hand full of players play lower level college ball but it would be less than 20. Over that time they have won a state title, been to WMS 5 times and in the Semi's 8 times. All doing so without college type players. Conversely there is no culture of basketball, We are the Washington Generals and turn everyone else into the Globetrotters.

I only went to one high school and my kids to two high schools so my view point is limited but my limited view says culture is huge. At my school talent DID NOT WALK THE HALLWAYS. Players, coaches, teachers, parents, alums etc all worked hard on anyone they felt could contribute. And yes we too sucked in B Ball but nobody cared ;D

Grond

I am a Paragould fan, and have been following the team since 2011. Had a son that played there.

A little recent history...

2010 - Greene County Tech made playoffs.
2012 - If Paragould had won last game, would have made playoffs.
2014 - Lost to Valley View and Batesville by 1 TD each. Easily beat Blytheville, who went to playoffs.

We have also produced some college level athletes:

2013 - Paragould O-line walk-on at Arkansas State
2015 - Paragould O-line walk-on/scholarship at Southern Arkansas University (still playing)
2017 - GCT O-line scholarship at Henderson State (still playing)
2019 - Paragould LB/FB/TE likely D2 scholarship

There has been some talent, and (especially Paragould) there have been frustratingly close opportunities for success.

Grond

The question at hand: how do you fix Greene County Tech and Paragould?

Both schools, like most high schools, run offensive and defensive play schemes borrowed from college. But the modern college schemes require highly talented QB's and WR's. And these college schemes don't always work in high school.

I think Paragould made a good move in going to the flexbone

incogneto

November 05, 2018, 05:10:14 pm #18 Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 05:15:03 pm by incogneto
Quote from: hogjay on November 05, 2018, 11:11:48 am
Talent, administration, community, and parents are all more important than coaching.
B U L L crap ! !  I would put coaching number one on this list even though they are all important.   

JacketFan

It all starts with the communities youth football program, here at Wynne we start teaching them the 27 trap in kindergarten.  Go Jackets

LionX2

Quote from: Grond on November 05, 2018, 04:49:16 pm
The question at hand: how do you fix Greene County Tech and Paragould?

Both schools, like most high schools, run offensive and defensive play schemes borrowed from college. But the modern college schemes require highly talented QB's and WR's. And these college schemes don't always work in high school.

I think Paragould made a good move in going to the flexbone

Paragould doesn't run the flexbone. They run the double wing

incogneto

Quote from: LionX2 on November 05, 2018, 07:04:19 pm
Paragould doesn't run the flexbone. They run the double wing
Scheme matters.  It matters a lot of a coach is asking kids to do what they cannot do.  If a coach is doing what his kids can do it's more about mentality. 

Pr8hd

November 05, 2018, 07:36:47 pm #22 Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 06:38:46 am by Pr8hd
Quote from: hogjay on November 05, 2018, 11:11:48 am
Talent, administration, community, and parents are all more important than coaching.

Coaching is the main thing. Make no mistake. 

Here in GW, we don't have an over abundance of talent necessarily, but a great coach/staff overcomes that coupled with the other things mentioned. The GW kids make up for lack of size or talent with an over abundance of heart and that's because of the tradition Jones has cultivated here.   

hogjay

Quote from: incogneto on November 05, 2018, 05:10:14 pm
B U L L crap ! !  I would put coaching number one on this list even though they are all important.   
Well, my thinking is a coach can not win at a high level and consistently without talent.  Talent can make an average coach look good.  Some places are bad at football because the administration hinders the program, by either not caring or things like coaches pay (hard to get good assistant coaches with low play).  If the community doesn't care about football and the success of the program, then it becomes very difficult for a coach.  Parents instill characteristics way before a coach gets him.  Now, a great coaches will have an impact on all these areas.  But, it's hard to get a great coach to take a risk and enter a situation with some of these areas of concern being undesirable. 

sevenof400

Quote from: Pr8hd on November 05, 2018, 07:36:47 pm
Coaching is the main thing. Make no mistake. 

Here in GW, we don't have an over abundance of talent necessarily, but a great coach/staff overcomes that coupled with the other things mentioned. The GW kids make up for lack of size or talent with an over abundance of heart and that's because of the tradition Jones has cultivated here.

Let me preface these comments by saying this is NOT an attempt (implied or otherwise) to discredit or diminish what Greenwood has accomplished on the various sports fields (lest the ghost of TT return!) but Pr8hd I think even you would have to admit Greenwood has a great deal of advantage in several aspects mentioned in this thread.  Advantages that give Greenwood a considerable head start over other 5A schools - and a good number of 6A schools.  Proximity to a large metropolitan area, a large business community (and the support it brings), and an infrastructure that competed well at the next level (6A) offer evidence that Greenwood has several advantages at its disposal. 

Is coaching important - absolutely.  Is it the most important factor - not so sure there. 
But when quality coaching is combined with other assets mentioned here, it really slants the competitive edge for the school(s) who have those assets.  Is this somehow Greenwood's fault - no, of course not.  But Greenwood's success must be considered in light of all the factors IMO.   

HeberFan


All factors are important, there is no ONE answer to this.

Did coaching matter when Michael Jordan played for the Chicago Bulls?  Not really.

Is coaching very important without a GOAT on team? Sure is.

There are literally dozens of factors that can turn a game or season.




sevenof400

Quote from: HeberFan on November 06, 2018, 09:29:22 am
All factors are important, there is no ONE answer to this.

Did coaching matter when Michael Jordan played for the Chicago Bulls?  Not really.

Is coaching very important without a GOAT on team? Sure is.

There are literally dozens of factors that can turn a game or season.

It mattered when he played for UNC!

HeberFan


Don't think Jordan was the GOAT in college basketball.

sevenof400

Quote from: HeberFan on November 06, 2018, 09:36:37 am
Don't think Jordan was the GOAT in college basketball.

Dean Smith took care of that!   

HeberFan

Quote from: sevenof400 on November 06, 2018, 09:38:22 am
Dean Smith took care of that!

Dean Smith AND his players took care of that. Many people say Kareem was the GOAT of college basketball.

sevenof400

Quote from: HeberFan on November 06, 2018, 09:40:42 am
Dean Smith AND his players took care of that. Many people say Kareem was the GOAT of college basketball.

I'm going off topic now - college GOAT is Christian Laettner. 

HeberFan

Quote from: sevenof400 on November 06, 2018, 09:46:58 am
I'm going off topic now - college GOAT is Christian Laettner.

If you say so....

sevenof400


HeberFan

Quote from: sevenof400 on November 06, 2018, 11:15:57 am
Show me a college player with a better resume.

Good point, but, CL was a very good player on a very good team with a very good coach. Put Kareem on that team and it would be much better.

incogneto

I will say this.  If you are an AD and you allow your coaches to blame talent then you are the problem.  Don't hire coaches that blame talent and fire coaches that blame talent.  Do you really think Bauxite has more talent since Patton showed up?  It's funny that some coaches find talent no matter where they go.  I will never forget when one of the old guard coaches told me there wasn't enough talent at Bryant to play in a spread and win.  He isn't at bryant any longer. 

Now that being said some places realistically have more talent than others.  However, if you can coach and you are willing to put your own ego aside and do what your kids can do you can at least field a competitive team. 

hogjay

The Bauxcite coach didn't have much other options when he was looking for a job. But, yes I think he is a really good coach. Just don't think he will consistently win. He will work his butt off to be average and wait for that class. Kinda like the Cabot, Beebe, Pottsville and many other coaches. While those who have talent are in the hunt every other year.

hogjay

If coaching was more important than talent then Nick Saban would have won year 1 at his stops at MSU, LSU, Bama. But, instead he went 7-6 his first year at bama.

incogneto

November 06, 2018, 07:13:06 pm #37 Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 07:16:32 pm by incogneto
Quote from: hogjay on November 06, 2018, 06:46:04 pm
The Bauxcite coach didn't have much other options when he was looking for a job. But, yes I think he is a really good coach. Just don't think he will consistently win. He will work his butt off to be average and wait for that class. Kinda like the Cabot, Beebe, Pottsville and many other coaches. While those who have talent are in the hunt every other year.
I think he will be better than average but we will have to wait and see who is right.  However, Pocahontas and GCT were the examples and they are no where near average.

BTW I HATE typing on a phone that
I constantly have to go back and correct mistakes it changes in spelling and grammar.  <- This sentence has to be retyped three times because my phone thinks it knows what want to say better than I do.

JessieP

Quote from: sevenof400 on November 06, 2018, 11:15:57 am
Show me a college player with a better resume.

How about Kareem. He was 88-2 over 3 years at UCLA. Back then freshman couldn't play. He led the Nation in scoring all three years and won 3 consecutive National Championships. Oh yeah, one other thing, The NCAA outlawed the dunk because of Kareem. They changed a rule to try and slow a player down. Kareem's resume makes Laettner's look like a booger. ESPN counted down the 35 greatest college basketball players of all-time. CL was 9th, Kareem was 1 and Bill Walton was 2nd.

HeberFan

Quote from: JessieP on November 06, 2018, 08:23:55 pm
How about Kareem. He was 88-2 over 3 years at UCLA. Back then freshman couldn't play. He led the Nation in scoring all three years and won 3 consecutive National Championships. Oh yeah, one other thing, The NCAA outlawed the dunk because of Kareem. They changed a rule to try and slow a player down. Kareem's resume makes Laettner's look like a booger. ESPN counted down the 35 greatest college basketball players of all-time. CL was 9th, Kareem was 1 and Bill Walton was 2nd.

If I were starting a pro team, I'd go with Wilt Chaimberlan first and Michael Jordan second.

we_hate_the_band

Quote from: JessieP on November 06, 2018, 08:23:55 pm
How about Kareem. He was 88-2 over 3 years at UCLA. Back then freshman couldn't play. He led the Nation in scoring all three years and won 3 consecutive National Championships. Oh yeah, one other thing, The NCAA outlawed the dunk because of Kareem. They changed a rule to try and slow a player down. Kareem's resume makes Laettner's look like a booger. ESPN counted down the 35 greatest college basketball players of all-time. CL was 9th, Kareem was 1 and Bill Walton was 2nd.

I believe you are mistaken for Lew Alcindor.

HeberFan

Quote from: we_hate_the_band on November 07, 2018, 08:43:27 am
I believe you are mistaken for Lew Alcindor.

Yeah, same player with a different name. I've never seen a big man run the court like Wilt.

Rick Swines

Quote from: incogneto on November 06, 2018, 04:05:04 pm
I will say this.  If you are an AD and you allow your coaches to blame talent then you are the problem.  Don't hire coaches that blame talent and fire coaches that blame talent.  Do you really think Bauxite has more talent since Patton showed up?  It's funny that some coaches find talent no matter where they go.  I will never forget when one of the old guard coaches told me there wasn't enough talent at Bryant to play in a spread and win.  He isn't at bryant any longer. 

Now that being said some places realistically have more talent than others.  However, if you can coach and you are willing to put your own ego aside and do what your kids can do you can at least field a competitive team.

This is spot on. 

P.F.G.

I'm from Alma and have been officiating for right around 15 years. Biggest thing that comes to mind when I take the field to officiate a game is the attitude. Coaching/AD is the big one. Some coaches love football and hardly demand accountability from players. Some coaches demand the absolute best from everyone and goes a long way. I'll try and list some examples. Greenwood comes to mind first. Doesn't matter level it is but especially in Jr high and high school levels. You see the coaches not only coaching everyone but if a kid is not playing up to their standards then you won't see that kid very much that night. Charleston, booneville, Southside, Ozark, Nashville, PA and several big schools from okalanoma that I have seen really demand this and that more times than not has been the difference in a game for these schools. These kids just know how to win and some schools have to deal with the fact that they simply don't know how to win.

incogneto

Quote from: P.F.G. on November 08, 2018, 01:37:55 pm
I'm from Alma and have been officiating for right around 15 years. Biggest thing that comes to mind when I take the field to officiate a game is the attitude. Coaching/AD is the big one. Some coaches love football and hardly demand accountability from players. Some coaches demand the absolute best from everyone and goes a long way. I'll try and list some examples. Greenwood comes to mind first. Doesn't matter level it is but especially in Jr high and high school levels. You see the coaches not only coaching everyone but if a kid is not playing up to their standards then you won't see that kid very much that night. Charleston, booneville, Southside, Ozark, Nashville, PA and several big schools from okalanoma that I have seen really demand this and that more times than not has been the difference in a game for these schools. These kids just know how to win and some schools have to deal with the fact that they simply don't know how to win.
Knowing how to win is a real thing.  When you used the word accountability you used the right word.

JessieP

Quote from: incogneto on November 08, 2018, 03:12:31 pm
Knowing how to win is a real thing.  When you used the word accountability you used the right word.

Accountability is very important. If the coaches demand more the players will respond in kind.

incogneto

Quote from: JessieP on November 08, 2018, 04:22:10 pm
Accountability is very important. If the coaches demand more the players will respond in kind.
Absolutely!  The real job of a coach is to get the kids to play above their heads.  Any coach that isn't pushing kids beyond what they think they are capable is cheating the kids out of their time and effort. 

Pr8hd

Quote from: JessieP on November 08, 2018, 04:22:10 pm
Accountability is very important. If the coaches demand more the players will respond in kind.

In GW, the players are expected to win and the coaches prepare them to win. This is why coaching is the trump card. Seen far too many times, a bad coach not win with a team with decent talent, and seen a lot in GW where CRJ and staff take a decent team and win handily against a team that often has superior talent.

I always think of coaches like Frankie Vines as well when I think of this. His teams were well coached, not big, not the most talented, but man they were coached well, played very hard, and had great technique. A good coach who's players believe in him, the system, buy in to the tradition, etc. are hard to stop.


GotInfo?

November 09, 2018, 11:38:06 am #48 Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 11:40:15 am by GotInfo?
HS is a different animal than college and pros.  If you really look at the HS that are very good every year, it comes down to 2 things, coaching and time. 
Coaching is what it is.  But time, time is a major factor in long term success.  Look at PA, Greenwood, Bentonville/West, NLR, Warren etc.  They get there kids year round to train them, practice them, meet with them, and watch film.  They don't lose their best kids to other sports so they can't get training.  They find ways to schedule their athletic time so that it benefits all sports and not just Fall/Spring. 
Think about it. Connor Noland for example.  He trained and had both football time and baseball time in the spring everyday.  There wasn't just football and baseball season for him.  For all those guys that play multiple sports.  Their athletic periods are set up for them to succeed in multiple sports year round.  Most schools are not like that.  They have 1 period for athletics and the kids go from sport to sport.  If they are a 3 sport athlete, their football coach only sees them in the fall and summer.  Makes it hard to develop them as the complete player. 
This is not just a football issue, its an athletic issue.  Most of the NWA schools are figuring it out and trying to make things better.  Just wish some others would too.
JMO

incogneto

Quote from: GotInfo? on November 09, 2018, 11:38:06 am
HS is a different animal than college and pros.  If you really look at the HS that are very good every year, it comes down to 2 things, coaching and time. 
Coaching is what it is.  But time, time is a major factor in long term success.  Look at PA, Greenwood, Bentonville/West, NLR, Warren etc.  They get there kids year round to train them, practice them, meet with them, and watch film.  They don't lose their best kids to other sports so they can't get training.  They find ways to schedule their athletic time so that it benefits all sports and not just Fall/Spring. 
Think about it. Connor Noland for example.  He trained and had both football time and baseball time in the spring everyday.  There wasn't just football and baseball season for him.  For all those guys that play multiple sports.  Their athletic periods are set up for them to succeed in multiple sports year round.  Most schools are not like that.  They have 1 period for athletics and the kids go from sport to sport.  If they are a 3 sport athlete, their football coach only sees them in the fall and summer.  Makes it hard to develop them as the complete player. 
This is not just a football issue, its an athletic issue.  Most of the NWA schools are figuring it out and trying to make things better.  Just wish some others would too.
JMO
This is where the community comes in.  If the community thinks Dixie League baseball or the like is more important than football then they shouldn't expect to retain decent football assistants.  They might get a good HC but the assistant coaches won't come and stay. 

Fox 16 Arkansas Fox 24 Arkansas