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Author Topic: Basketball cylinder rule  (Read 957 times)

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Offline Gray lizard

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Basketball cylinder rule
« on: January 29, 2018, 11:50:39 am »
Does this rule apply to high school in Arkansas?
I am not talking about goal interference, but the space that is given to an offence player.

The reason I ask is I coach a 6th grade girls team.  I teach my girls to play defense by moving their feet and no body contact. 
We play in a 10 team league.  Each town hires the officials for the games.  The way the games are called from crews varies greatly.
Some allow way to much contact to the point of slapping and shoving. This puts a team that plays good defense at a huge disadvantage.
My girls which are coached correct can not adjust. So am I wrong to teach them this way.

I know it has been the major factor in two losses this year.

Example:  This past game I had a tall girl holding the ball over her head with two hands (she is tall enough the defender can not touch the ball with out jumping).  The defensive player jumped into her body and slapped the ball out of her hands hitting my player on the shoulder.  This happened at least 4 times and no foul called which led to a turnover.
The other thing that is common is a player receives a pass and two defenders sandwich the player.  I mean two players with their bodies pushed up against the girl with the ball.  The player has no where to move.  I have one girl that can get rough in this situation and tend to get a warning from the ref about her elbows.

Offline 4real

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2018, 11:53:22 am »
Does this rule apply to high school in Arkansas?
I am not talking about goal interference, but the space that is given to an offence player.

The reason I ask is I coach a 6th grade girls team.  I teach my girls to play defense by moving their feet and no body contact. 
We play in a 10 team league.  Each town hires the officials for the games.  The way the games are called from crews varies greatly.
Some allow way to much contact to the point of slapping and shoving. This puts a team that plays good defense at a huge disadvantage.
My girls which are coached correct can not adjust. So am I wrong to teach them this way.

I know it has been the major factor in two losses this year.

Example:  This past game I had a tall girl holding the ball over her head with two hands (she is tall enough the defender can not touch the ball with out jumping).  The defensive player jumped into her body and slapped the ball out of her hands hitting my player on the shoulder.  This happened at least 4 times and no foul called which led to a turnover.
The other thing that is common is a player receives a pass and two defenders sandwich the player.  I mean two players with their bodies pushed up against the girl with the ball.  The player has no where to move.  I have one girl that can get rough in this situation and tend to get a warning from the ref about her elbows.
that's just what you call a bad job of reffing.  If they push your girls, give your girls permission to push back twice as hard.

Offline Gray lizard

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2018, 11:57:14 am »
I spend a lot of time coaching them to play D by moving their feet and not making contact with their body or hands.  How can you go against that and expect them to be able to turn it on and off.

Offline blueandwhite

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2018, 02:03:03 pm »
What do you mean by cylinder rule? Like is there a rule saying that the defense must give the offense X feet to move?

Offline Gray lizard

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2018, 02:41:01 pm »
In college it is elbow distance.  Must allow player space to make a shot, pass, or dribble.

Offline arreferee

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2018, 03:00:20 pm »
In college it is elbow distance.  Must allow player space to make a shot, pass, or dribble.

What is the purpose behind this rule?  It seems to me that making sure a player can't make a shot, pass, or dribble used to be considered good defense. 

Offline Basketball13

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2018, 03:12:37 pm »
What do you mean by cylinder rule? Like is there a rule saying that the defense must give the offense X feet to move?

I believe he is talking about a "Cylinder" Foul. This is an NCAA rule and is not associated with NFHS. It definitely can add some confusion.. attached below is the NCAA rules and clarifications from this play. I've attached the link as well if you would like to see full detail. But....

The “cylinder rule” became part of the verticality rule (Rule 4 38) for the main purpose of helping to
rebalance the rules between offense and defense by creating freedom of movement for an offensive player
to attempt a normal basketball move. Please note the following with regard to this rule

1. The cylinder rule only increases the space normally allowed in the front of the player where the
cylinder extends to the hands of a player when the elbows are bent.

2. On the sides and back of the player, the diameter of the cylinder begins at the player’s hips on the
side and buttocks at the back. Therefore, a defender may come as close to an offensive player
short of contact on the side or back of the offensive player. Most fouls committed by the defense
on the side or back would be those included in Rule 10 1.4 and 10 1.5 which would not require
the use of the new signal for invasion of the cylinder.

3. The cylinder rule applies equally to the offense and defense, and all players are at risk of being
assessed with a foul when they invade another player’s cylinder.

4. While most cylinder plays which involve elbow contact occur on the perimeter, the rule applies
anywhere on the court including during post play. However, also note the exception to the cylinder
rule which allows a defensive player to place one arm bar on a post player. (Rule 10 1.5.d)

5. Given the clear purpose of the “cylinder rule”, it is imperative that officials adjudicate these plays
by 1) raising an arm with a fist (signal for foul); 2) quickly determining which player invaded the
other’s cylinder space and 3) determining if the offensive player was attempting to make a normal
basketball move by moving the ball from side to side either above the shoulders or below the waist.
While it is possible for the offense to still commit a player control or flagrant foul, most of the
elbow contacts which result from these types of plays are defensive fouls even though the contact
may be severe. Officials should not default to an offensive foul as that will be detrimental to the
overall attempt to change the culture of playing defense under these new rules.


https://ncaambb.arbitersports.com/Groups/104883/Library/files/Rules_Clarifications_and_Play_Situations_111716.pdf

« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 03:16:24 pm by Basketball13 »

Offline Gray lizard

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2018, 03:15:11 pm »
What is the purpose behind this rule?  It seems to me that making sure a player can't make a shot, pass, or dribble used to be considered good defense.

I get what you are thinking, but you can't make contact in doing so. Take a trap for example.  If two player trap the ball handler.  They can not press their bodies up against the ball handler.  They must give space and move their feet and hands to play good defense. Same on a shot the defender can not lean into the shooter to prevent shot.
I just know that in NCAA if you are in side the cylinder and make any kind of contact they will call the foul.  This was called on Beard in the last of Saturdays Razorback game.
The game is being called to allow more offence move movement. That is why Mike Anderson's teams are struggling on defense.
arrreferee do you call Pee Wee games?

Offline arreferee

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2018, 04:50:11 pm »
I get what you are thinking, but you can't make contact in doing so. Take a trap for example.  If two player trap the ball handler.  They can not press their bodies up against the ball handler.  They must give space and move their feet and hands to play good defense. Same on a shot the defender can not lean into the shooter to prevent shot.
I just know that in NCAA if you are in side the cylinder and make any kind of contact they will call the foul.  This was called on Beard in the last of Saturdays Razorback game.
The game is being called to allow more offence move movement. That is why Mike Anderson's teams are struggling on defense.
arrreferee do you call Pee Wee games?

Thanks for the information.

I do not call basketball at all and only work college football.  Why do you ask?

Offline Gray lizard

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2018, 05:19:46 pm »
Because I wonder how refs can call the game of basketball so far apart from one game to the next on contact allowed.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2018, 09:03:36 pm »
If they push your girls, give your girls permission to push back twice as hard.
You might want to read up on coaching ethics.

Offline 4real

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2018, 09:33:42 pm »
You might want to read up on coaching ethics.
coaching ethics or common sense?  If they let you get away with the arm bar, the other team uses it, you you don’t let your kids use it... that’s what you call a loss in the record books...you have to give your kids a chance to compete. You have to coach in a way to be able to adjust.   Sure, it is sweet and nice to say we will do this purely by the books, but, jeez, the books are getting so convoluted nobodys sure what’s in the rule book anymore.
What happened to common sense officiating?  Can we not call the obvious?  Do we have to have lawyers word the rule book?  Or just a bunch of old men coming up with new rules to make the game boring?  If it is obviously a violation or foul, call it! If not, let me play through...

Offline blueandwhite

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2018, 11:14:53 am »
Gray Lizard, are using certified officials?

Offline 4real

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2018, 12:24:54 pm »
Here's the deal, the aau and summer camp officials are not always aoa guys.  You can get some lazy dudes out there that don't care, and there's nothing the coaches can do, besides get ejected, or take their team off the court when it's that bad, i guess.

Offline arreferee

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2018, 01:34:46 pm »
Here's the deal, the aau and summer camp officials are not always aoa guys.  You can get some lazy dudes out there that don't care, and there's nothing the coaches can do, besides get ejected, or take their team off the court when it's that bad, i guess.

Unfortunately, you are correct.  My kids played aau basketball when they were younger.  One game (4-6 grades) was getting really rough and the referees weren't calling anything (it was consistent though as they weren't calling anything against either team :)).  A dad sitting next to me (who is a DEA agent), very calmly told the official that someone was going to get hurt if they didn't get the game under control.  The official was standing right in front of us and the dad didn't raise his voice...he said it just loud enough for the official to hear.  The official turned around, pulled the whistle from around his neck, and challenged the dad to a fight right there on the court.   

Offline Gray lizard

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2018, 08:17:29 am »
Gray Lizard, are using certified officials?
I do not know the answer to that.  All I know is there are two of them and they wear black and white stripes with a whistle around their neck.
There are a couple crews that do a great job.  I hate to think it but I figure it is just a way to put a little green in their pockets for a lot of them.

I was asked buy a local baseball commissioner to call baseball games.  I told him I knew nothing about baseball.  He said that was ok because it was for the younger ages and he knew I would learn the rules.  He said it paid $25.00 a game which was split with the other umpire.  I told him I would pay him $12.50 not to have to do it.

Offline blueandwhite

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2018, 11:53:31 am »
The simple answer is that there is no nfhs rule on these situations.

Offline Gray lizard

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2018, 07:59:06 am »
The simple answer is that there is no nfhs rule on these situations.

Well how is the level of contact ruled.  This seems to be a problem across all levels of basketball.  There seems to be no constant set of rules.  It varies to much from crew to crew and that is not good for the game.

Offline Basketball13

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Re: Basketball cylinder rule
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2018, 10:59:57 am »
Rule 9 - Sec 13...

ART. 1 . . . A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or
elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent.
ART. 2 . . . A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under
the chin or against the body.
ART. 3 . . . Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body
movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting
with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control
shall not be considered excessive.
PENALTY: (Section 13) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and
is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-ofbounds
spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception d)

Anything else.. where there is actually contact would be deemed an offensive foul per NFHS, however; if the contact is severe and intentional we could always go flagrant as well.

 

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