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2014 4A ALL STATE

Started by Brian G, March 21, 2014, 04:41:51 pm

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Brian G

Kris Oliver Arkadelphia
Noah Patterson Arkansas Baptist
Ben Madison Bauxite
Austin Carr Berryville
C.J. Henry Brookland
Stephen Flanigan Central Arkansas Christian
Jalen Hudson Crossett
Kabion Ento Dollarway
Josh Liddell Dollarway
James Spinks Dumas
Terence Pierce Gravette
Mason Schroeder Heber Springs
Ossy Escareno Lincoln
Blake Mack Lonoke
J.B. Minix Maumelle
D.J. Franklin Monticello
Clark Brewington Pocahontas
Michael Perry Pottsville
Ty Tice Prairie Grove
Toney Matthews Star City
Cash Krueger Subiaco Academy
Hunter Ball Waldron
Zac Presten Westside, Jonesboro
Blake Price Westside, Jonesboro

Brian G

Caroline Hogue Arkansas Baptist
Jordan Maynard Brookland
Jamie Holley Cave City
Falan Miller Central Arkansas Christian
Nicole Sykes Clinton
Kyleigh Hodges Crossett
Stepfanie Traigle Dardanelle
Kimbi Haston Dover
Mona' Mitchell Dumas
Tahlon Hopkins Farmington
Haley Maxwell Farmington
Hannah Johnson Heber Springs
Jarrelyn McCall Lonoke
Eboni Willis Lonoke
Raven Baker Malvern
Tiffany Murdock Malvern
Madison Sherrer Mena
Kylie Ladd Ozark
Kate Junkersfeld Pocahontas
Courtney Dotson Pottsville
Lacey Beeks Prairie Grove
Jaida Harden Star City
Ashleigh Guthrie Valley View
Shamiqua Pickett Warren

Brian G


Bearcatparent

Can someone explain All State compared to All Tourney for me? Looks like Dollarway and Westside have two on All State but Lonake and Brookland only have one and played for the Championship. Just wondering how it is decided. Thanks. Sort of the same in the girls, Farmington and Malvern have two and Malvern I could understand but Farmington shouldn't have more than CAC considering the Jones girl and Miller girl.

Nip/Tusk

From what I understand, all state is voted on by conference coaches. Each conference gets 4.

Tournament teams are picked by coaches and media I think. Looks like state champion gets 3, runner up gets 2 and everyone else gets 1 representative.

Bearcatparent

Thanks for the info. Makes more sense now. Sure makes it hard on those conferences that have several outstanding players to pick 4 I am sure. Congrats to all the fine young men and women that have had the opportunity to showcase their talents to all of us setting in the stands cheering them on and being recongnized for that. Looking forward to next year already.

PASS

The process needs to be changed. For example, in 4A-7 girls, there are 3 girls that will play division 1 basketball next year & Sydnie Jones (a junior, who will play D-1) who did not make All State.

THE D.O.C

March 22, 2014, 02:48:52 pm #7 Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 02:52:33 pm by THE D.O.C
Quote from: PASS on March 22, 2014, 01:17:02 pm
The process needs to be changed. For example, in 4A-7 girls, there are 3 girls that will play division 1 basketball next year & Sydnie Jones (a junior, who will play D-1) who did not make All State.
I wish they all could be considered.

Nip/Tusk

How would you suggest changing it?

Brian G

March 22, 2014, 03:33:17 pm #9 Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 03:50:03 pm by B.G.
Answer:  Make it more people so it's not really an honor -OR- let parents pick their favorites.

So many per conference is the only way.  There is no central authority that can possibly decide who should make it statewide.  No one sees every game and every player.  You have to rely on smaller pockets with coaches who know the players they actually see.  They base it on their conference season where they see them at least twice.

Do some slip through the cracks? Yes.  But you can't find a better way to do it without alienating even more.

But you'll have chronic cryers ever single year.  Some think their whole starting five should be all-state.

Nip/Tusk

I agree with you bg.

The aaa has already cheapened state championships (7/6a) for the almighty dollar though so I wouldn't be surprised if they did this too (if they could figure out a way to make money). Lol

Brian G

AAA is not to blame for 7A/6A.  Voting schools are responsible.

AAA only acts off the members decision.


Nip/Tusk

I don't know all the facts to debate with you so I'll have to take your word for it. Doesn't change the fact that the system is a joke and the titles seem somewhat tainted to me.

Whoever is responsible, you can bet its all about money.

PASS

So BG, what you are saying is that the best players shouldn't make all state. We need to divide it up evenly among the entire state, so as to not offend anyone? Why not base the number of all state kids per conference based on how the conference teams finish at state? 4a-7 girls had 3 teams in state & both teams in championship game, yet they got same number of all state players as the 4a-4, who sent no teams to state tourney.
As for your remark about crying parents...my daughter was one of the girls selected for all state. This isn't crying, it's a person voicing his opinion. Just because your opinion is that there isn't a better way, so just like how it is, doesn't make mine crying. If you are going to debate this, then come up with a valid argument.

NEA Razorback olfan

March 22, 2014, 07:36:22 pm #14 Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 07:43:01 pm by NEA Razorback olfan
I Agree Pass,
The players who earn it , deserve it ( Brookland or Valley View could not contain Jones from CAC - who is Definetely ALL State!!)

If she is not ALL State, then I have no idea what ALL State means!!!!!

Brian G

March 22, 2014, 07:56:33 pm #15 Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 08:43:45 pm by B.G.
I'm saying there is no way to do it more efficiently.

Your way arbitrarily would assign "X" number to teams that do better? How is that better than letting each conference have "Y"?  This isn't socialism.  No one in NW can say for certain someone from SE Ark is better or worse when they don't see them.  All the games are not on tv to evaluate.  It's not college where the exposure to tv lets you see other players.  There are not enough media members with that knowledge either.

It's an impossible solve.  For all someone knows, there might be a better player sitting on Team Z's bench that is better.

Just be glad there is All-State for each class and be glad there are 7 classifications.  There was a player at Siloam(6A) that played vs. 7A teams in every conference game and nary a one vs a 6A team.  Yet how did he make 6A State?  A good player too but someone somewhere is bemoaning that fact another Parkview(for example) kid didn't make it.

You simply got to look at it like this:

There is "all-conference" and then within each conference some are chosen as elite enough to become All-State by those that see them play.  To pretend that someone out there knows enough to vote on all of them is absurd.


Nip/Tusk

If its that important for someone to get all state, maybe they should join a new conference.

This is the problem with a lot of kids (and parents) these days. Individual accolades take precedence over team success.

WKM

How do you get players on losing teams at the bottom of a conference named all state  ?
How does the first place team in  conference not have one? Not sure I understand the process.

Brian G

Quote from: WKM on March 22, 2014, 09:31:33 pm
How do you get players on losing teams at the bottom of a conference named all state  ?
How does the first place team in  conference not have one? Not sure I understand the process.
I will yield that "winning" is a sign that you have good players but it's not mutually exclusive to having the best players.

The award is for the players.  The team plays for the title which is less subjective.

Why bother even having All-State if you're just going to give it to the teams that win?  It's a useless exercise. 

I'm always amazed at the talk on these matters.

Nip/Tusk

If you want to blame somebody, blame the coaches in your conference. They're the ones who nominate and vote on this.

WKM

Just call me old school then - you earn it - you get it . Put the numbers up and award it on merit and skill of the players. It's all subjective if it's by a coaches vote without guidelines . I've been around enough ball to know back door politics have just as much to do with it. My dad was a coach. I understand you don't have to be on a "winning" team to earn it.
Back in the day we got all state by making it to state .

Nip/Tusk

Oh I'm sure there's politics involved no doubt.

Brian G

Too many schools and too many divisions now.

Players on lower teams can "earn it" too.

Brian G

Quote from: Josh Louin on March 22, 2014, 09:52:43 pm
Oh I'm sure there's politics involved no doubt.
A lot of which comes from those coaches who actually have kids they nominated over another for reasons that might be suspect.


WKM

BG I agree any player can earn it, no disrespect to any one on a team that didn't finish high, but as I stated numbers don't lie.
But hey life's not fair and kids might as well learn it early. Use it for motivation and get better.

PASS

What qualifies as "earning" All State? I know of a girl last year that was not selected, who averaged 14.8 points, 11.2 rebounds & 9.8 blocked shots a game. She wasn't picked picked because she played in 4A-7 conference with 10 future college basketball players. You could take the top 4 girls in 4A-7 that DID NOT make all state & beat every other 4A conferences all state kids.
Girls that did not make it in 4A-7:
Akaisha Westbrook - Arkansas State
Alivia Huell - UALR
Damonique Miller - Memphis
Sydnie Jones - junior with multiple offers & averaged a double double.

Give me another 4A conferences all state players that are collectively that good.


Brian G

It would appear that it didn't damage their lives.

THE D.O.C

March 23, 2014, 09:36:05 am #27 Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 09:48:08 am by THE D.O.C
Quote from: PASS on March 23, 2014, 02:51:18 am
What qualifies as "earning" All State? I know of a girl last year that was not selected, who averaged 14.8 points, 11.2 rebounds & 9.8 blocked shots a game. She wasn't picked picked because she played in 4A-7 conference with 10 future college basketball players. You could take the top 4 girls in 4A-7 that DID NOT make all state & beat every other 4A conferences all state kids.
Girls that did not make it in 4A-7:
Akaisha Westbrook - Arkansas State
Alivia Huell - UALR
Damonique Miller - Memphis
Sydnie Jones - junior with multiple offers & averaged a double double.

Give me another 4A conferences all state players that are collectively that good.
The list goes on PASS: Sarah Butler-CAC, Allison Tackett- Bauxite, Kassidy Snowden-Nashville.  Malvern was loaded with girls,  you could have selected basically the whole team. Tiffany Murdock-LA Tech, is a Senior and its her first time making All State, Huell never made it. Coaches select the players unfortunately only a certain amount of players can be selected.

NEA Razorback olfan

Quote from: PASS on March 23, 2014, 02:51:18 am
What qualifies as "earning" All State? I know of a girl last year that was not selected, who averaged 14.8 points, 11.2 rebounds & 9.8 blocked shots a game. She wasn't picked picked because she played in 4A-7 conference with 10 future college basketball players. You could take the top 4 girls in 4A-7 that DID NOT make all state & beat every other 4A conferences all state kids.
Girls that did not make it in 4A-7:
Akaisha Westbrook - Arkansas State
Alivia Huell - UALR
Damonique Miller - Memphis
Sydnie Jones - junior with multiple offers & averaged a double double.

Give me another 4A conferences all state players that are collectively that good.

To me All these players should be All State !!
They have earned it!! And I don't have a daughter on any team just a fan of the game!!

NEA Razorback olfan

March 23, 2014, 09:47:30 am #29 Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 09:54:21 am by NEA Razorback olfan
State tourney MVP for Brookland boys ( Chandler Thompson) didn't even make All State , only CJ Henery from the State Champs!

It's a real joke!!!     I believe they should wait till after the state tourney and see who performs and deserves it !!

Heck I might as well go have my 8th grade son a shirt made  that says All State on the Back!! Lol!!

Brian G

Lordy.

By definition, All-Tournament is for the tournament.

All-State is for the regular season.

This is the common practice.  Even the NFL names it's MVP for the regular season and then an MVP for the Super Bowl.

Be happy for who did make it and get off the Crying Train.

NEA Razorback olfan

Congrats to all the All State players!!!

Brian G

Quote from: NEA Razorback olfan on March 23, 2014, 10:15:28 am
Congrats to all the All State players!!!

Here is someone that gets it.

Bearcatparent

The issue seems to be that there are too many good players in all conferences and the coaches have to pick the best 4 in their opinion. A measuring system of some sort would be great but how to go about that I am not sure. Brookland which I am most familiar with for example had 5 players that would be leaders for them on any given night and 3 that averaged double figures in scoring each game, won their conference, district, regional, and State but only had one player chosen for All State. Westside on the other hand had 2 players chosen by finishing 2nd in conference, 2nd in district, and lost in their first game of regional. Pocahontas which finished I think 3rd or 4th in conference and got beat out in first game of district and did not make it to regional or state but yet had one player. There where many good players in the 4A-3 this year and not saying any of these did not deserve it just saying there where so many that several got left out of this accolade. The same could be said for the 4A-3 girls as well. I am sure many of the other conferences where the same so this could be the argument for everyone but until someone comes up with some BCS, RPI, or similar measuring system that I am sure we would all disagree with at some time, this is what we have. Hopefully the coaches use their talent evaluation skills and not their favoritism to decide who should be selected.  All that said to also say CONGRATS to all those selected and good luck to those that have more years to play.

Bearcatparent

I forgot a question I had as well. 5A boys has 32 All State selections yet the 4A boys only have 24, why is that? The 5A has 4 conferences, or will next year, and the 4A has 6. Explain that one. Does that water down the recognition for the 5A players and if not why would adding more to the 4A not be a possibility? Just curious. I did not look at any of the others to see what they had.

Cardfan1

Quote from: PASS on March 23, 2014, 02:51:18 am
What qualifies as "earning" All State? I know of a girl last year that was not selected, who averaged 14.8 points, 11.2 rebounds & 9.8 blocked shots a game. She wasn't picked picked because she played in 4A-7 conference with 10 future college basketball players. You could take the top 4 girls in 4A-7 that DID NOT make all state & beat every other 4A conferences all state kids.
Girls that did not make it in 4A-7:
Akaisha Westbrook - Arkansas State
Alivia Huell - UALR
Damonique Miller - Memphis
Sydnie Jones - junior with multiple offers & averaged a double double.

Give me another 4A conferences all state players that are collectively that good.

With all do respect PASS....you and I are on very different planets when it comes to this. I have read your posts over the years and agree with much of what you post on here but you're letting your 4A-7 affinity and AAU connection with many of the mentioned players taint this argument. It's not a "4A-7 vs the rest of the state" issue. There are many talented kids across the state who had All-State years that you haven't had the opportunity to watch much. Keep in mind PASS, basketball outside the 4A-7 and the AAU circles was pretty good this year. You're a basketball person, you know this. Guys, All-State has never been about genetic talent or D-1 offers. It's about production on the floor, during the REGULAR SEASON of high school. There will never be enough awards to go around and there will always be someone who will have an argument. The reality is, it's life. These things are nominated and voted on just as many other things are I'm sure. Is it an exact science? NO, but it is about as effective of an awards system as possible for all the reasons mentioned on here by other posters. There is no doubt all the young people you have mentioned are tremendously talented and have had successful seasons. Many will have their have their college paid for to play. That in itself is a huge accomplishment and in the grand scheme of things, the most important. But, don't minimize the seasons that other young people had, trying to argue they were somehow left out! Congratulations to all the players this year! That includes that made All-State and those who we're not. The 4A as a whole was a talented as I can remember this season, in particular on the girls side. A fun season to follow as a fan.

Bearcatparent

Number of selections according to classification:

7A - 16 they have 4 combined with the 6A
6A - 16 they have 4 combined with the 7A
5A - 32 they have 4 conferences
4A - 24 they have 6 conferences
3A - 32 they have 8 conferences
2A - 24 they have 8 conferences
1A - 24 they have 8 conferences

those with 8 conferences I could see having more selections possibly but the ones with 6 you would think would have the same number. Maybe it is an oversight on the 5A and just not been changed or something. Again just curious as to the process. Thanks.

Brian G

Quote from: Bearcatparent on March 23, 2014, 11:54:11 am
I forgot a question I had as well. 5A boys has 32 All State selections yet the 4A boys only have 24, why is that? The 5A has 4 conferences, or will next year, and the 4A has 6. Explain that one. Does that water down the recognition for the 5A players and if not why would adding more to the 4A not be a possibility? Just curious. I did not look at any of the others to see what they had.
It has to do with overall enrollment.

Nip/Tusk

March 23, 2014, 12:42:47 pm #38 Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 12:44:41 pm by Josh Louin
32 for 5a (& 16 for 7a & 6a) is a joke IMO. Pretty watered down if you ask me. 2a & 1a is much tougher mathematically it seems. I think 4a & 3a have it pretty fair.

And every conference has an all-conference teams for those players not necessarily chosen for all state.

Bearcatparent

Quote from: B.G. on March 23, 2014, 12:10:38 pm
Quote from: Bearcatparent on March 23, 2014, 11:54:11 am
I forgot a question I had as well. 5A boys has 32 All State selections yet the 4A boys only have 24, why is that? The 5A has 4 conferences, or will next year, and the 4A has 6. Explain that one. Does that water down the recognition for the 5A players and if not why would adding more to the 4A not be a possibility? Just curious. I did not look at any of the others to see what they had.
It has to do with overall enrollment.
Can you explain further? 3A gets 32 and I wouldn't think they have more overall enrollment than a 4A school and 6A & 7A have more than 5A but get less.

forcephil

Hey, some kids play their butts off for six years and don't even get an honorable mention nod at the end of the year - congrats to all, who were fairly given this honor, and my salute goes out to all seniors whose careers ended this year;  there were a lot of people who appreciated your dedication to your school, I just hope you all know it.

Brian G

Another way to look at this. 

First the explanation of how I arrived at the numbers below.

1. I used the 2014-16 cycle numbers that are being used to determine classifications that will start this fall.  These numbers are average attendance figures for 3 grades for each school.
2. Consider the fact most schools do not use 9th graders in varsity sports and those that do don't use that many so that data is not applied but is minor to the point you'll see as each school still has 9th graders at their disposal.
3.  I didn't account for fractions.

What did I do?

> I added up each school from each class to get a total number for each class. For instance I added Fayetteville+Springdale+ Northside and on and on to get the 7A number.
> I then took that total number and divided it by the number of All-State players allotted to each class.

Why did I do this?

> People like to clamor about being fairly represented so let's look at it on a "per pupil" basis by class

What can we conclude?

> I'll let you decide but it speaks for itself.

Data

7A  16 schools 29,448 students with 16 All-State = 1 per 1843 students
(MSM and LRC combined)
6A 16  schools 15506 students with 16 All State = 1 per 969 students

5A 32 schools 20091 students with 32 All-State = 1 per 627 students

4A 49* schools 18031 students with 24  All-State = 1 per 751 students

3A 53* schools 12243 students with 32 All-State = 1 per 382 students

I didn't go down to the 2A and 1A.  But I figure the number trickles down similarly.


Brian G

If you want to account for girls making all-state then simply divide that final number by 2(if you assume boy/girl split is 50/50).

All that would do is further show you how many All-State players there are per student per class.

I'm only offering the numbers, not a personal conclusion.

Bearcatparent

Quote from: B.G. on March 23, 2014, 10:07:52 pm
Another way to look at this. 

First the explanation of how I arrived at the numbers below.

1. I used the 2014-16 cycle numbers that are being used to determine classifications that will start this fall.  These numbers are average attendance figures for 3 grades for each school.
2. Consider the fact most schools do not use 9th graders in varsity sports and those that do don't use that many so that data is not applied but is minor to the point you'll see as each school still has 9th graders at their disposal.
3.  I didn't account for fractions.

What did I do?

> I added up each school from each class to get a total number for each class. For instance I added Fayetteville+Springdale+ Northside and on and on to get the 7A number.
> I then took that total number and divided it by the number of All-State players allotted to each class.

Why did I do this?

> People like to clamor about being fairly represented so let's look at it on a "per pupil" basis by class

What can we conclude?

> I'll let you decide but it speaks for itself.

Data

7A  16 schools 29,448 students with 16 All-State = 1 per 1843 students
(MSM and LRC combined)
6A 16  schools 15506 students with 16 All State = 1 per 969 students

5A 32 schools 20091 students with 32 All-State = 1 per 627 students

4A 49* schools 18031 students with 24  All-State = 1 per 751 students

3A 53* schools 12243 students with 32 All-State = 1 per 382 students

I didn't go down to the 2A and 1A.  But I figure the number trickles down similarly.
So this would make your statement about overall enrollment being the way they come up with how many All State players would be incorrect since the 3A & 5A get 32 but yet they have less students than the 4A???

ricepig

The schools set up the criteria and selection process for All-State, I suggest those who disagree, contact their school administrators and put forth a proposal to the AAA.

Maybe, some of these schools who have slots should give them up to the more deserving players? It isn't written in stock that you take a position. A few years ago a 6A coach declined a spot for one of his players because there a was a kid on a team that finished at the bottom and his team didn't get one. That's rare, and takes a coach with a lot of guts to say he's giving up a slot for his school, in order to honor an opposing player.

SUGARTOWN

March 24, 2014, 10:44:56 am #45 Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 10:46:49 am by SUGARTOWN
Quote from: PASS on March 23, 2014, 02:51:18 am
What qualifies as "earning" All State? I know of a girl last year that was not selected, who averaged 14.8 points, 11.2 rebounds & 9.8 blocked shots a game. She wasn't picked picked because she played in 4A-7 conference with 10 future college basketball players. You could take the top 4 girls in 4A-7 that DID NOT make all state & beat every other 4A conferences all state kids.
Girls that did not make it in 4A-7:
Akaisha Westbrook - Arkansas State
Alivia Huell - UALR
Damonique Miller - Memphis
Sydnie Jones - junior with multiple offers & averaged a double double.

Give me another 4A conferences all state players that are collectively that good.

So if you add these girls who do you want to remove from all-state?

Nip/Tusk

You have to stick with the current system IMO.

Would you change the whole playoff setup by allowing 5 or more teams from one conference to go to regionals or state just because it might be a tougher conference than another? 


PASS

Hey B.G., who is responsible for leaving the Arkansas Gatorade player of the year, Jordan Danberry from Conway, off the All State team? You really believe the current system in place to be okay? I do not & that is proof. I don't have a good answer, but this sure isn't it.

Nip/Tusk

Either her coach, the coaches in her conference or both.

SUGARTOWN

Quote from: PASS on March 24, 2014, 02:03:04 pm
Hey B.G., who is responsible for leaving the Arkansas Gatorade player of the year, Jordan Danberry from Conway, off the All State team? You really believe the current system in place to be okay? I do not & that is proof. I don't have a good answer, but this sure isn't it.

Didn't already state that the coaches vote on this? BTW, I would rather be Gatorade Player of the Year than All-State, lol.

No system would ever be perfect, someone will always be left off and complain. But like with everything else, if you don't have a better plan, then there's no need to argue.

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