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8 Man Football

Started by playmaker04, May 30, 2018, 01:38:51 pm

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playmaker04

Augusta, Decatur, Hermitage, Episcopal Collegiate and Arkansas Christian have decided to play 8 man Football. This is a long time coming.

Jimbo Morphis


old.dole

Woodlawn should be next

SOUTHARK99

I think its a good thing for the small schools

Yogi bear

Wonder if they might realign the conference? If Woodlawn does that too wouldn't that just leave six in the conference?

old.dole

Strong is on the verge too. Very bad numbers in jh the last couple years

eldofan

May 30, 2018, 07:27:46 pm #6 Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 07:29:35 pm by eldofan
This conference should be realigned . Not fair if we lose 2 more teams this year. Sounds like  hermitage has already been lost . Woodlawn and strong on the verge of not fielding teams

Yogi bear

They could move Springhill to the eight.

The_Wesson_Blessin

Quote from: Yogi bear on May 30, 2018, 09:04:12 pm
They could move Springhill to the eight.
No no no. Then the conference would look too much like the spring and winter sport conferences and that would make too much sense for the AAA to do that. Lol

Yogi bear

Yeah we might could get a little payback for all those beatdowns in baseball.

Lions84

This is good news for small schools with low 11 man football Numbers.

Sonofasonofasailor

Quote from: Lions84 on May 31, 2018, 09:44:37 am
This is good news for small schools with low 11 man football Numbers.

Your alma mater may be in that group soon.

Steven Meek is the high school principal and football coach at Clarendon. He said the school will move forward with its 11-man team this fall, but low numbers in a couple of incoming classes could end the football program.

"Our kids that are in eighth grade, going to be ninth-graders, there are 25 kids total," Meek said. "And the kids that are going to be seventh-graders, there are 22. So that's two consecutive years where the numbers are not there.

"We're going to go to the meeting and listen. This cycle we are probably going to be OK, but just with our enrollment down the road, we're probably going to have to do something if we want football to survive at our school."

Meek said the junior high teams at Clarendon likely would play an eight-man schedule this season and next while the school ponders the possible move in the near future.

MagicMike

Did i read that wrong or does Clarendon have 47 player 7-9 and is considering 8 man?

purpleswag

Quote from: MagicMike on May 31, 2018, 06:16:45 pm
Did i read that wrong or does Clarendon have 47 player 7-9 and is considering 8 man?

I think a big concern is that 2 grades together only have 25 total and the drop off from jr high to high school is considerable. I'm pretty sure they make all 7th graders play football if they want to play basketball as well

Sonofasonofasailor

Quote from: purpleswag on May 31, 2018, 06:29:37 pm
I think a big concern is that 2 grades together only have 25 total and the drop off from jr high to high school is considerable. I'm pretty sure they make all 7th graders play football if they want to play basketball as well

I read it that they have 47 (25 and 22) in the two grades he mentions.  Whatever the case, there is a declining enrollment so maybe its time to consolidate with Brinkley to form Monroe County High.

brotherdew

So.....
What does AAA have to say about this? Are they recognizing it, regulating it, etc.

old.dole

From what I understand it will not be recognized for sure this year but possibly next year or next cycle it will be.

Sonofasonofasailor

Quote from: brotherdew on June 01, 2018, 05:01:30 pm
So.....
What does AAA have to say about this? Are they recognizing it, regulating it, etc.

From the same article as above.

Steve Roberts, the AAA associate executive director, told the group of school representatives that he's had coaches across the state tell him eight-man football is going to happen.

"We have teams that are looking at their numbers of the next four, five, six years down the road, and they know football will no longer be viable at the 11-man level in their communities," Roberts said.

An eight-man football season would last 10 games, Roberts said. In a club season, there would be no playoffs.

Eight-man football schools would follow AAA rules and regulations, Roberts said, which include eligibility, coaching certification and using Arkansas Officials Association officials. Also, practices would have the same guidelines as 11-man football.

old.dole

So no chance of winning a title or having playoffs in the future for 8 man teams?

Sonofasonofasailor

Quote from: old.dole on June 01, 2018, 05:33:34 pm
So no chance of winning a title or having playoffs in the future for 8 man teams?

The article says in a club season, there would be no playoffs.  I don't know this but assume playoffs would be implemented once enough teams participate at that level. 

4real

I think its a good thing.  How can it be a bad deal?  The only gray area is figuring out at what number of enrollment do school deserve eligibility for 8 man, vs sandbagging with 11 man numbers.  Hard thing to figure.

Sad its taken this long to get enough school on board.  15 years ago Hartford made a call to the AAA to get permission to play Oklahoma schools an 8 man schedule, knowing that they would be independent in FB and not eligible for the OK playoffs.  They just figured it was better for their kids, of which there were about 13-15 consistently, to play 8-10 games in a competitive setting and fun, instead of playing Charleston, Danville, Pea Ridge, Elkins and that bunch back at that time in the old 2A.
Don Brodell shut the idea down.  He told the Hartford coach that if they chose to do so, they would be ineligible for post season play in all sports.  Crooked.

arkansasFBscoop

It is going to be tough to get in place for 2019, much less 2018.  There was some surprise at the low number of schools who immediately committed at the meeting.  There seemed to be an impression a dozen plus were ready to play right now, obviously not the case.

For those teams looking to play 8-man this fall - how?  8-man teams in Oklahoma are going to have schedules set in Decatur's case.  Who do Hermitage, Augusta, etc. play?  Each other 3 times?  The Mississippi private schools that play 8-man have schedules set, as well.  Even to pull it off as a "club sport" this fall - you'd need 10-12 teams this fall.  I don't see it happening.

It is a good thing several non-football schools went to the meeting and it will be great if they add the sport.  You have to think - equipment, practice space, game field, staff.  Those things will take some time and $$$ to get together.  In reality, the start-up cost of 8-man is not going to be much less than 11-man.  You still need equipment, coaches, paint for the field, officials, etc.  I think we sometimes think the 3 less bodies on the field make it so much easier to add the sport.  It really doesn't.  It'd take at least a year for those schools without any football to get what they need to start the sport.

I don't see a league feasible this fall, even as a "club sport".  2019 maybe, with teams dropping mid-cycle that creates problems.  Do they have to pay to buy-out game contracts mid-cycle?  Frankly, they should.  Teams losing home games costs them money, too.  Lots of moving parts.  Will be really interesting to see how well this takes in Arkansas.

NWA Hawg

Quote from: arkansasFBscoop on June 01, 2018, 10:06:17 pm
It is going to be tough to get in place for 2019, much less 2018.  There was some surprise at the low number of schools who immediately committed at the meeting.  There seemed to be an impression a dozen plus were ready to play right now, obviously not the case.

For those teams looking to play 8-man this fall - how?  8-man teams in Oklahoma are going to have schedules set in Decatur's case.  Who do Hermitage, Augusta, etc. play?  Each other 3 times?  The Mississippi private schools that play 8-man have schedules set, as well.  Even to pull it off as a "club sport" this fall - you'd need 10-12 teams this fall.  I don't see it happening.

It is a good thing several non-football schools went to the meeting and it will be great if they add the sport.  You have to think - equipment, practice space, game field, staff.  Those things will take some time and $$$ to get together.  In reality, the start-up cost of 8-man is not going to be much less than 11-man.  You still need equipment, coaches, paint for the field, officials, etc.  I think we sometimes think the 3 less bodies on the field make it so much easier to add the sport.  It really doesn't.  It'd take at least a year for those schools without any football to get what they need to start the sport.

I don't see a league feasible this fall, even as a "club sport".  2019 maybe, with teams dropping mid-cycle that creates problems.  Do they have to pay to buy-out game contracts mid-cycle?  Frankly, they should.  Teams losing home games costs them money, too.  Lots of moving parts.  Will be really interesting to see how well this takes in Arkansas.

Who were the non football schools that showed up.

arkansasFBscoop

Quote from: fann07 on June 02, 2018, 10:18:50 am
Who were the non football schools that showed up.

Abundant Life, ICC, Nemo Vista, Trinity Christian and White County Central.

Article mentions having to follow AAA rules on coaches, as well, which means head coach must be licensed educator with coaching endorsement.  Most A schools I know run a bare bone athletic staff as it is, adding an additional sports means additional stipends and another expense against an already small enrollment.

I may be in the minority, but I don't know how well 8-man here is going to work.  If truly about numbers, 6-man would have been a better option in my opinion.  Can get by with significantly less bodies in 6-man on a roster.  8-man rosters are not much different from 11 man and not uncommon to see 20+ kids out in other states.  If you have 20+ you should be playing 11 man, again IMO.  Teams do it all the time across Arkansas.

brotherdew

Quote from: arkansasFBscoop on June 01, 2018, 10:06:17 pm
It is going to be tough to get in place for 2019, much less 2018.  There was some surprise at the low number of schools who immediately committed at the meeting.  There seemed to be an impression a dozen plus were ready to play right now, obviously not the case.

For those teams looking to play 8-man this fall - how?  8-man teams in Oklahoma are going to have schedules set in Decatur's case.  Who do Hermitage, Augusta, etc. play?  Each other 3 times?  The Mississippi private schools that play 8-man have schedules set, as well.  Even to pull it off as a "club sport" this fall - you'd need 10-12 teams this fall.  I don't see it happening.

It is a good thing several non-football schools went to the meeting and it will be great if they add the sport.  You have to think - equipment, practice space, game field, staff.  Those things will take some time and $$$ to get together.  In reality, the start-up cost of 8-man is not going to be much less than 11-man.  You still need equipment, coaches, paint for the field, officials, etc.  I think we sometimes think the 3 less bodies on the field make it so much easier to add the sport.  It really doesn't.  It'd take at least a year for those schools without any football to get what they need to start the sport.

I don't see a league feasible this fall, even as a "club sport".  2019 maybe, with teams dropping mid-cycle that creates problems.  Do they have to pay to buy-out game contracts mid-cycle?  Frankly, they should.  Teams losing home games costs them money, too.  Lots of moving parts.  Will be really interesting to see how well this takes in Arkansas.
I agree that it would be tough to get started in 2018 if they play a full 10 game schedule. The schools that aren't currently football schools could use another school's field if they play on a day other than Friday. If treated like a start up program they could look at a JV type schedule for the first year or so with fewer games. This might allow them to set up some games out of state, avoiding the full schedule issue mentioned. Of course the financial aspect of it is the big hurdle for most non-football schools. I see this as being something that might grow over the next 10 years or so as smaller schools struggle to keep their numbers up. That is if AAA is willing to give it time to grow.
I also find it interesting that AAA is calling this a club sport yet they treat it as if it were a sanctioned sport. Sounds like maybe they see this as an option for the future of small schools.

Cheek

Quote from: brotherdew on June 02, 2018, 11:10:47 am
I agree that it would be tough to get started in 2018 if they play a full 10 game schedule. The schools that aren't currently football schools could use another school's field if they play on a day other than Friday. If treated like a start up program they could look at a JV type schedule for the first year or so with fewer games. This might allow them to set up some games out of state, avoiding the full schedule issue mentioned. Of course the financial aspect of it is the big hurdle for most non-football schools. I see this as being something that might grow over the next 10 years or so as smaller schools struggle to keep their numbers up. That is if AAA is willing to give it time to grow.
I also find it interesting that AAA is calling this a club sport yet they treat it as if it were a sanctioned sport. Sounds like maybe they see this as an option for the future of small schools.

It will be tough this year.  The Coaches will have to learn the rules of 8 man football along with the officials.   The fields are smaller so some goal post will have to be moved.  It will take a few years to get going.

AirWarren

Quote from: old.dole on June 01, 2018, 05:33:34 pm
So no chance of winning a title or having playoffs in the future for 8 man teams?

Honestly, just consolidate schools for goodness sake.

NWA Hawg

Quote from: AirWarren on June 02, 2018, 06:26:08 pm
Honestly, just consolidate schools for goodness sake.

Wow!! Didn't we try this once?

AirWarren

Quote from: fann07 on June 02, 2018, 08:39:05 pm
Wow!! Didn't we try this once?

Some schools did. Others opted to "fight the power" and years later...continue to struggle.

NWA Hawg

Quote from: AirWarren on June 02, 2018, 09:07:56 pm
Some schools did. Others opted to "fight the power" and years later...continue to struggle.

Struggle what with athletics or academics?

arkansasFBscoop

Quote from: AirWarren on June 02, 2018, 09:07:56 pm
Some schools did. Others opted to "fight the power" and years later...continue to struggle.

What does struggling in football have to do with consolidation?

beach bum

June 02, 2018, 10:15:43 pm #31 Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 10:24:49 pm by beach bum
Quote from: arkansasFBscoop on June 02, 2018, 09:55:23 pm
What does struggling in football have to do with consolidation?

Take a look at the schools on the chopping block numbers wise for both and you will see a lot of schools named on both future potential lists down the road.... AW is on to something, and as much as it stings some 2A folks to hear. I don't like that reality either, but it is what it is and he is right. Football is still a sport that requires 11 on the field at one time with 17-21 healthy bodies to realistically have a team even. And with less kids playing the sport its going to become so hard for the schools to keep a football program. Just wait another 10-15 years and you will see another round of consolidating happen again. All it takes it one governor to make the 350 number firm and its over. Isn't there some flexibility with that number going on already where some schools should be closed but the location is still open being ran by another district? I am pretty sure Saint Paul is ran by Huntsville, but the Saint Paul location is still there. Like I said wait for another governor who goes firm with a number and closes even more 1A schools. Can someone fill me in on the Saint Paul/Huntsville scenario cause I think that is going on in other spots in the state where the 350 number can be flexed if the "parent district" keeps the smaller location open. Like I said someone correct me if I am wrong there.

Sonofasonofasailor

Quote from: AirWarren on June 02, 2018, 06:26:08 pm
Honestly, just consolidate schools for goodness sake.

Is Act 60 still law and forcing consolidation on those districts with enrollment under 350?

NWA Hawg

Quote from: beach bum on June 02, 2018, 10:15:43 pm
Take a look at the schools on the chopping block numbers wise for both and you will see a lot of schools named on both future potential lists down the road.... AW is on to something, and as much as it stings some 2A folks to hear. I don't like that reality either, but it is what it is and he is right. Football is still a sport that requires 11 on the field at one time with 17-21 healthy bodies to realistically have a team even. And with less kids playing the sport its going to become so hard for the schools to keep a football program. Just wait another 10-15 years and you will see another round of consolidating happen again. All it takes it one governor to make the 350 number firm and its over. Isn't there some flexibility with that number going on already where some schools should be closed but the location is still open being ran by another district? I am pretty sure Saint Paul is ran by Huntsville, but the Saint Paul location is still there. Like I said wait for another governor who goes firm with a number and closes even more 1A schools. Can someone fill me in on the Saint Paul/Huntsville scenario cause I think that is going on in other spots in the state where the 350 number can be flexed if the "parent district" keeps the smaller location open. Like I said someone correct me if I am wrong there.

I don't see why football numbers should have anything to do with a school consolidating.

beach bum

Quote from: Sonofasonofasailor on June 02, 2018, 10:20:15 pm
Is Act 60 still law and forcing consolidation on those districts with enrollment under 350?

I asked a question towards the bottom of my above post so I hope someone can answer that for me and you as well.... I think the 350 number can be flexed under certain circumstances cause I want to know the answer to your question as well. Hopefully one of these 1A posters can fill us in.

beach bum

Quote from: fann07 on June 02, 2018, 10:26:14 pm
I don't see why football numbers should have anything to do with a school consolidating.


If you are struggling to get 17-20 kids to play football on a yearly basis I am pretty sure in general that says something about your overall student body population probably. That's just in general because the law of averages has oddities in anything however and that does not speak for every school.

beach bum

It's pretty simple.... A school with a student body of 1,200 in 10th-12th grade is going to have a lot easier time fielding a football team than a school with 120 kids in that same grade bracket. It's nothing against 2A schools, but again the reality of the situation. That's why I have grown an even greater appreciation of the 2A and 3A schools with yearly, winning programs how hard it is numbers wise. When you get to 4A is when pretty much every school can finally have some stability it seems even the bottom feeder teams not having to worry about insanely low roster numbers.

HorseFeathers

People saying schools should be consolidated cause they can't field a football team is kinda funny and sad at the same time...

St Paul is a part of the Huntsville district...I assume they've kept it open because it's still fiscally sound to do so. Hackett just closed Hartford because they said that campus was bleeding money. I assume Camden harmony Grove will do the same with Sparkman soon.

350 isn't the only factor for consolidation, if the schools are in good academic and fiscal standing then they are allowed to remain open.

Hgalum50

Quote from: HorseFeathers on June 03, 2018, 08:53:29 am
People saying schools should be consolidated cause they can't field a football team is kinda funny and sad at the same time...

St Paul is a part of the Huntsville district...I assume they've kept it open because it's still fiscally sound to do so. Hackett just closed Hartford because they said that campus was bleeding money. I assume Camden harmony Grove will do the same with Sparkman soon.

350 isn't the only factor for consolidation, if the schools are in good academic and fiscal standing then they are allowed to remain open.
Sparkman already doesn't have athletics anymore and most their kids already come to HG I have no clue why they haven't shut that school down yet!

arkansasFBscoop

Quote from: HorseFeathers on June 03, 2018, 08:53:29 am
People saying schools should be consolidated cause they can't field a football team is kinda funny and sad at the same time...

St Paul is a part of the Huntsville district...I assume they've kept it open because it's still fiscally sound to do so. Hackett just closed Hartford because they said that campus was bleeding money. I assume Camden harmony Grove will do the same with Sparkman soon.

350 isn't the only factor for consolidation, if the schools are in good academic and fiscal standing then they are allowed to remain open.

Which is how it should be. 

If a school is educating their students, how they perform in athletics is irrelevant.

If a school is not doing the job teaching their students, how they perform in athletics is irrelevant.

Sonofasonofasailor

Quote from: HorseFeathers on June 03, 2018, 08:53:29 am
People saying schools should be consolidated cause they can't field a football team is kinda funny and sad at the same time...

St Paul is a part of the Huntsville district...I assume they've kept it open because it's still fiscally sound to do so. Hackett just closed Hartford because they said that campus was bleeding money. I assume Camden harmony Grove will do the same with Sparkman soon.

350 isn't the only factor for consolidation, if the schools are in good academic and fiscal standing then they are allowed to remain open.

Didn't Weiner have a high academic rating but was still consolidated with Harrisburg?  Maybe it was the financial side that got them?

arkansasFBscoop

They were victim of the 350, if I remember right.  They were in good shape academically and fiscally at the time.  The exceptions on finances and academics weren't made until later.

HorseFeathers

I think Weiner being in better financial and academic shape than the district they were forced to join opened some eyes...

Backwoods Bart

Quote from: Hgalum50 on June 03, 2018, 10:35:37 am
Sparkman already doesn't have athletics anymore and most their kids already come to HG I have no clue why they haven't shut that school down yet!

Hate it for Sparkman & all of the other bubble schools. No parent should have to truck their kids 30+ miles to get them an education, but as some of our smaller, less populated communities continue to trend down in numbers, it's a problem that is not going away. 

As far as 8 man football, for the athlete, it will definitely close a lot of doors to play collage ball. These kids already draw scrutiny just for playing 2A ball (when it comes to recruiting). 

HG Hornet

Quote from: Hgalum50 on June 03, 2018, 10:35:37 am
I have no clue why they haven't shut that school down yet!
Yes you do.

MomaLion

Quote from: Sonofasonofasailor on May 31, 2018, 09:35:46 pm
I read it that they have 47 (25 and 22) in the two grades he mentions.  Whatever the case, there is a declining enrollment so maybe its time to consolidate with Brinkley to form Monroe County High.
That was for the total class enrollment.  I honestly don't think we will have that many issues.  With all the  exciting things happening with the School of Innovation and the renovations/building that we're doing, we'll continue to draw more students.  We aren't anywhere close to needing to consolidate...however Brinkley may be in that situation soon.

Sonofasonofasailor

Quote from: MomaLion on June 03, 2018, 11:37:01 pm
That was for the total class enrollment.  I honestly don't think we will have that many issues.  With all the  exciting things happening with the School of Innovation and the renovations/building that we're doing, we'll continue to draw more students.  We aren't anywhere close to needing to consolidate...however Brinkley may be in that situation soon.

I hope you are right but from where?  Google tells me the population of Monroe County has dropped over 13% since 2010 so what is happening to reverse that trend?  The principal seems pessimistic about future enrollment.

This cycle we are probably going to be OK, but just with our enrollment down the road, we're probably going to have to do something if we want football to survive at our school."

Jimbo Morphis

From 1990 until 2016 Desha county has dropped from 16,800 people down to 11,876. That is another current Mcgehee or Dumas. Happening all over the Delta.

Cheek

Quote from: MomaLion on June 03, 2018, 11:37:01 pm
That was for the total class enrollment.  I honestly don't think we will have that many issues.  With all the  exciting things happening with the School of Innovation and the renovations/building that we're doing, we'll continue to draw more students.  We aren't anywhere close to needing to consolidate...however Brinkley may be in that situation soon.

It does not matter what you build the Delta is drying up and the town will continue to shrink.  The largest employer in the town is the School District.  As students graduate and go off to college, they will not return.   Clarendon and Brinkley will have to consolidate in the near future. 

Sonofasonofasailor

Quote from: Oldman on June 04, 2018, 01:20:29 pm
From 1990 until 2016 Desha county has dropped from 16,800 people down to 11,876. That is another current Mcgehee or Dumas. Happening all over the Delta.

Yep, the delta is dying.  Using the same 1990-2016 time frame, Monroe County population has dropped from 11,333 to 7,399.  That's almost 35%. 

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