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Public vs Private Schools Pile (Past/Present/Future/All Classes)

Started by MDXPHD, December 17, 2015, 03:12:54 pm

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MDXPHD

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 17, 2016, 09:10:25 am
These numbers are interesting. They are actually broken down by sport...but I only have the fall sports (and these are high school numbers).Financial aid isn't anything other than the award based off need...it has nothing to do with teachers at the school or any type of tuition discount. These are kids who play sports, qualified for tuition assistance from a 3rd party, and were awarded an amount by the school themselves.

Football - 20/61 (about 33 percent) players receive financial aid.
Volleyball - 2/18 (about 11 percent) players receive financial aid.
Tennis (Varsity..so 9-12) - 3/38 (about 7 percent) players receive financial aid.
Cross Country (Varsity) - 4/22 (about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.
Golf (Varsity) - 3/17(about 18 percent) players receive financial aid.

I have to know...is anybody shocked that 33 percent of their high school football team receives financial aid? 1/3 of their high school football team...

And financial aid isn't just capped at half of tuition...it can be quite a bit. The financial aid forms that I have show students were awarded anywhere from $14025.00 (more than actual tuition) to $1500.00. The majority of athletes who get financial aid are receiving over 6k per year.

I can't get the Spring sports until next May I don't think.

This is still good stuff.

PA Dad

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2017, 09:11:59 pm
This is still good stuff.

Are we recycling?  I hear it's good for the environment.

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Dad on December 03, 2017, 09:19:10 pm
Are we recycling?  I hear it's good for the environment.

I just remembered how the numbers were so out of line compared to the other sports and the school. Thought I would bring it back.

Regardless, onto the other boards! Football season is over and the champs are who we thought they would be..No surprise there. Congrats!

PA Dad

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 03, 2017, 09:25:02 pm
I just remembered how the numbers were so out of line compared to the other sports and the school. Thought I would bring it back.

Regardless, onto the other boards! Football season is over and the champs are who we thought they would be..No surprise there. Congrats!

If you haven't made your point by now, after two years, you never will.

nuttinbuthogs

Those numbers are striking.  Isn't it a violation for a school, coach, fan to give gifts to a student to entice them into coming to play ball at their school?

STBruin

Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2017, 10:08:20 am
Those numbers are striking.  Isn't it a violation for a school, coach, fan to give gifts to a student to entice them into coming to play ball at their school?

striking...yes...BUT have not been confirmed. Just because it is written, does not mean its true.....plus...wasn't a public school coach the last coach sanctioned for recruiting? AND...if not mistaken...had several players on his team this year...transfer in from several other schools prior to the season...just a thought....and to be honest...I no longer have a dog in the fight, my son finished with 4 rings and a heck of a high school career, and I NEVER SAW ANYTHING REMOTELY THAT WOULD RESEMBLE anything done outside the rules by coaches or school faculty.

nuttinbuthogs

Quote from: STBruin on December 07, 2017, 11:18:52 am
striking...yes...BUT have not been confirmed. Just because it is written, does not mean its true.....plus...wasn't a public school coach the last coach sanctioned for recruiting? AND...if not mistaken...had several players on his team this year...transfer in from several other schools prior to the season...just a thought....and to be honest...I no longer have a dog in the fight, my son finished with 4 rings and a heck of a high school career, and I NEVER SAW ANYTHING REMOTELY THAT WOULD RESEMBLE anything done outside the rules by coaches or school faculty.

Why am I not surprised?   If you did would you admit it?  I don't think they are stupid enough to do it in plain sight.

STBruin

Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on December 07, 2017, 12:00:04 pm
Why am I not surprised?   If you did would you admit it?  I don't think they are stupid enough to do it in plain sight.

If I did...I wouldn't be on here defending it...plain and simple

JessieP

The numbers are without question out of sync. If aid is given blindly, as PA claims, then the numbers would be identical across the board. I find it telling that no one can offer any explanation of the higher rate of football players receiving aid. Why? I mean if you want to shut people up at least give some off the wall made up story. It's funny how whenever anyone ask why the percentage of football players receiving aid is so much higher the response is crickets chirping and tumbleweeds. 

PA Bruin Fan

First, I'd like to determine where these numbers come from.  I'm just asking.  I don't think it's fair to question PAs ethics until we validate these numbers as factual.

Second, financial aid is not given out blindly.  A student must demonstrate the ability to maintain a high GPA and be an active member of the student body (I.e. band, debate team, fine arts, or sports).

Third, as to the specific question regarding why more football players receive aid, here is my take.  There are plenty of quality private schools in the area that can provide a high quality education.  Clearly, we have the top private school football program.  So, as a parent, if that's important, you would target PA.  That's just my guess. 


DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam


Red Devil Alum

Quote from: DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam on December 13, 2017, 01:12:19 pm

Chad Morris was on campus yesterday. He really wants 2 PA players. I think he is going to send some 4 star Texas players to finish high school at PA in exchange.

DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 14, 2017, 09:57:13 am
Chad Morris was on campus yesterday. He really wants 2 PA players. I think he is going to send some 4 star Texas players to finish high school at PA in exchange.

that would be a downgrade for what PA usually gets.

Red Devil Alum


friscokid

20 years ago a separate private school division for Arkansas would've been too small and never would have worked. Today I think it can, and it has a chance to grow thanks to charter schools and the possibility of homeschool teams as much as new privates.

friscokid

December 15, 2017, 01:08:24 am #1365 Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 01:32:08 am by friscokid
Introducing my proposal for AAPCHS (Arkansas Association of Private, Charter and Home Schools).

Somebody hook me up with a supe so we can get this proposal on the ballot.

First rule: LR Catholic/MSM must remain in the AAA at the 7A level because they're too big. Existing AAA eligibility rules for private schools will continue to apply.

After that, I propose one division for football schools and three for all other sports:

Football Division: LR Christian, Pulaski Academy, Subiaco Academy, Shiloh Christian, CAC, Baptist Prep, Harding Academy, LR Episcopal Collegiate, Conway Christian*. (9 teams)

Other sports:
Division I:
LR Christian, Pulaski Academy, eSTEM, Subiaco Academy, Shiloh Christian, CAC, Lisa Academy LR, Jax Lighthouse. (8 teams, 7 for girls)

Division II: Baptist Prep, Harding Academy, LR Episcopal Collegiate, Haas Hall, Arkansas Arts Academy, Haas Hall - Bentonville, Conway St. Joseph, Conway Christian. (8 teams)

Division III: West: Maumelle Charter, Future School FS, Trinity Christian, Morrilton Sacred Heart, NWA Classical, New School; East: KIPP Blytheville, Lisa Academy NLR, Abundant Life, Crowley's Ridge Academy, Ridgefield Christian, Quest Academy. (12 teams split into 2 conferences)

* — I expect Conway Christian to balk at this at the start and rightly so because they're so small, but the addition of football teams in the future should result in a conference split and level the playing field for them.

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: friscokid on December 15, 2017, 01:08:24 am
Introducing my proposal for AAPCHS (Arkansas Association of Private, Charter and Home Schools).

Somebody hook me up with a supe so we can get this proposal on the ballot.

First rule: LR Catholic/MSM must remain in the AAA at the 7A level because they're too big. Existing AAA eligibility rules for private schools will continue to apply.

After that, I propose one division for football schools and three for all other sports:

Football Division: LR Christian, Pulaski Academy, Subiaco Academy, Shiloh Christian, CAC, Baptist Prep, Harding Academy, LR Episcopal Collegiate, Conway Christian*. (9 teams)

Other sports:
Division I:
LR Christian, Pulaski Academy, eSTEM, Subiaco Academy, Shiloh Christian, CAC, Lisa Academy LR, Jax Lighthouse. (8 teams, 7 for girls)

Division II: Baptist Prep, Harding Academy, LR Episcopal Collegiate, Haas Hall, Arkansas Arts Academy, Haas Hall - Bentonville, Conway St. Joseph, Conway Christian. (8 teams)

Division III: West: Maumelle Charter, Future School FS, Trinity Christian, Morrilton Sacred Heart, NWA Classical, New School; East: KIPP Blytheville, Lisa Academy NLR, Abundant Life, Crowley's Ridge Academy, Ridgefield Christian, Quest Academy. (12 teams split into 2 conferences)

* — I expect Conway Christian to balk at this at the start and rightly so because they're so small, but the addition of football teams in the future should result in a conference split and level the playing field for them.
Expecting Episcopal, Harding Academy, Conway Christian, Subiaco and Arkansas Baptist to play football against PA and LRCA isn't fair to those schools.

MDXPHD

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 15, 2017, 09:39:05 am
Expecting Episcopal, Harding Academy, Conway Christian, Subiaco and Arkansas Baptist to play football against PA and LRCA isn't fair to those schools.

Right...because fairness is what PA is worried about. ::)

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 15, 2017, 10:11:34 am
Right...because fairness is what PA is worried about. ::)
I defend PA and you have a problem with it. I said that this plan unfavorably advantages PA and you have a problem with it.

You said that it is not fair for PA to play in 5A, but you've also said that PA doesn't belong in the conversation about the best team in the state because they are outclassed by NLR and Greenwood.

Can PA just give Batesville one of its state championship trophies laying around and you go off and be satisfied for a little while?

JessieP

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 15, 2017, 10:29:52 am
I defend PA and you have a problem with it. I said that this plan unfavorably advantages PA and you have a problem with it.

You said that it is not fair for PA to play in 5A, but you've also said that PA doesn't belong in the conversation about the best team in the state because they are outclassed by NLR and Greenwood.

Can PA just give Batesville one of its state championship trophies laying around and you go off and be satisfied for a little while?

Over the past few weeks I have been doing some digging, the internet does offer more than porn, and found some interesting things. I assumed this thread was dead but it seems to rise from the dead every so often. I looked into a few Nationally known football powerhouse programs, De La Salle, Mater Dei, St. Joes and even IMG (although they hardly count as a high school), you know what I found out? They all play in leagues designated for private schools. They do not qualify for State titles where public schools compete. The main reason given for this action, across the board, AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE! It seems that many other States, that are not Arkansas, realize that recruiting, lack of boundaries (sorry MDX but I found Arkansas does enforce boundaries to an extent) financial advantages and other factors make for a tilted playing field.

Now here is the shocking part, some of you may need to sit down. Not one of those schools opposed the classification one bit. They all readily admitted the advantages and acknowledge that winning under those circumstances wasn't an indicator of true achievement. Possibly another factor could be that none of those schools have any pull whatsoever with their governing bodies, that's probably the big difference between them and the AAA.

nuttinbuthogs

If private schools in Arkansas were forced out of the public school league those schools would most likely loose a bunch of athletes.  Two things would be evident, they were there for the athletics and those private schools would not be at the same level of play as they were before. 

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 11:28:08 am
Over the past few weeks I have been doing some digging, the internet does offer more than porn, and found some interesting things. I assumed this thread was dead but it seems to rise from the dead every so often. I looked into a few Nationally known football powerhouse programs, De La Salle, Mater Dei, St. Joes and even IMG (although they hardly count as a high school), you know what I found out? They all play in leagues designated for private schools. They do not qualify for State titles where public schools compete. The main reason given for this action, across the board, AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE! It seems that many other States, that are not Arkansas, realize that recruiting, lack of boundaries (sorry MDX but I found Arkansas does enforce boundaries to an extent) financial advantages and other factors make for a tilted playing field.

Now here is the shocking part, some of you may need to sit down. Not one of those schools opposed the classification one bit. They all readily admitted the advantages and acknowledge that winning under those circumstances wasn't an indicator of true achievement. Possibly another factor could be that none of those schools have any pull whatsoever with their governing bodies, that's probably the big difference between them and the AAA.
To go to any of those schools you mentioned, you don't have to be a resident of their respective state. That is not true of the AAA.

But this just in, the PA has convinced the AAA to award the 2018 and 2019 state titles to PA. It helps to have pull. Six-peat suckers.

nuttinbuthogs

That rule can be easily avoided by renting an apartment in town and staying there during the week.

footballfan-tastic

 There are plenty of quality private schools in the area that can provide a high quality education.  Clearly, we have the top private school football program.  So, as a parent, if that's important, you would target PA.  That's just my guess. 

I wonder do you have the top private school football program because of kids on scholarship?  If I could give a kid more money than actual tuition, if that is true, then isn't that paying them to play.

JessieP

Quote from: Red Devil Alum on December 15, 2017, 12:49:02 pm
To go to any of those schools you mentioned, you don't have to be a resident of their respective state. That is not true of the AAA.

But this just in, the PA has convinced the AAA to award the 2018 and 2019 state titles to PA. It helps to have pull. Six-peat suckers.

Now that is true, every team I mentioned has had players "move in" to play there. A few from out of State. You see I always thought the single biggest advantage PA had was boundaries. MDX and others put me in my place.  According to the FF posters anyone can play for any team any time they want. Now the AAA web site say's other but some people here paint it out like you could start the season at Batesville, lose the first 2 games and Monday morning after the second loss you could transfer to Wynne and play that Friday.. Both MDX and Intelligentsia have stated "any player can play for any team they chose". Maybe that's the difference, other States admit it happens, Arkansas denies it. I don't know, but on your point you are correct, the other teams I mentioned draw from hundreds of miles.

MDXPHD

Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 02:31:41 pm
Now that is true, every team I mentioned has had players "move in" to play there. A few from out of State. You see I always thought the single biggest advantage PA had was boundaries. MDX and others put me in my place.  According to the FF posters anyone can play for any team any time they want. Now the AAA web site say's other but some people here paint it out like you could start the season at Batesville, lose the first 2 games and Monday morning after the second loss you could transfer to Wynne and play that Friday.. Both MDX and Intelligentsia have stated "any player can play for any team they chose". Maybe that's the difference, other States admit it happens, Arkansas denies it. I don't know, but on your point you are correct, the other teams I mentioned draw from hundreds of miles.

School choice allows any player to play for any school, whether he resides in the district or not. However, if they transfer after the 7th grade year, they must sit out one full year. Just like if a player transfers to a private school, they must sit out one full year to participate in sports unless they are within the "district" (a 25 mile radius I believe). Anyone can move within the district and if it is a bonafide move, they will be allowed to participate in any sport that year. However, one limitation on this is if the player had already started the season at a different school. If this is the case, he wouldn't be eligible for that specific sport for that year, regardless of the bonafide move.

If you would like to discuss in more depth, we can. I don't really see what the confusion is here though. I don't believe I have ever said a player can play the same sport at 2-3 different schools the same sports season. I doubt Intelligentsia has either.

gameoflife

Has to wait 365 days if they move after the season, or transfer out of district. 

RazorDad

Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 11:28:08 am
Over the past few weeks I have been doing some digging, the internet does offer more than porn, and found some interesting things. I assumed this thread was dead but it seems to rise from the dead every so often. I looked into a few Nationally known football powerhouse programs, De La Salle, Mater Dei, St. Joes and even IMG (although they hardly count as a high school), you know what I found out? They all play in leagues designated for private schools. They do not qualify for State titles where public schools compete. The main reason given for this action, across the board, AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE! It seems that many other States, that are not Arkansas, realize that recruiting, lack of boundaries (sorry MDX but I found Arkansas does enforce boundaries to an extent) financial advantages and other factors make for a tilted playing field.

Now here is the shocking part, some of you may need to sit down. Not one of those schools opposed the classification one bit. They all readily admitted the advantages and acknowledge that winning under those circumstances wasn't an indicator of true achievement. Possibly another factor could be that none of those schools have any pull whatsoever with their governing bodies, that's probably the big difference between them and the AAA.

Yet another lame argument for separating out the privates from the publics in Arkansas.  Let's look at the private high school enrollment numbers from the AAA.  I will put include Catholic/MSM for a realistic analysis:

Catholic High/MSM                     970
Little Rock Christian Academy     405
Pulaski Academy                        311
Subiaco Academy                       251
Shiloh Christian                          231
Central Arkansas Christian           192
Baptist Prep                                179
Harding Academy                        177
Episcopal Collegiate                     152
Conway Christian                          92
St. Joseph                                    93
Trinity Christian                            60
Abundant Life                               59
Crowley's Ridge Academy              57
Ridgefield Christian                       53
Sacred Heart                                53

There are 17 private high schools in Arkansas with an enrollment of 3,335.  The total enrollment of all high schools in Arkansas is 112,337, so the privates represent 2.9 % of the HS student population.

Since you mentioned Mater Dei, let's look at California.

There are 430 private high schools in California with an enrollment of 133,000 students.  The total enrollment of all high schools in California is 2,008,650, so the privates represent 6.6 % of the HS student population.  Trinity League is just one of many private school leagues in California and consists of just seven of the private high schools in the Los Angeles area.:

Mater Dei                                     2100
Santa Margarita Catholic               1700
Lutheran                                      1322
Jserra Catholic                              1200
Servite (boys)                                920
St. John Bosco (boys)                     820
Rosary Academy (girls)                   370

Total Trinity League Enrollmen        8432

So as you can see, California (and the other states mentioned) have large enough of a private student populations to separate and have their own league, Arkansas obviously does not. heck, the entire private high school population of Arkansas is outnumbered by just Mater Dei and Santa Margarita.

So, we are back to the true heart of the matter - Is winning so important that you want to eliminate the competition by segregating them out?  Personally, I want to prove myself against the best. Removing your competition by administrative means makes any championship you receive just a participation trophy.

gameoflife

You still haven't made a good argument for private schools being able to play with public.  Only one I can see is the goodness of the public schools heart to allow them to play.   Your argument just reinforces that goodness argument. If public schools really got a lot of transfers into their district to play ball then it might be different.  To me 30+ kids on scholarship playing football is a real advantage that public schools don't show.  As long as private schools can stack the deck like some do I don't think there is much that will fix it unless they go play in their own league.  Yeah, lets let a school that padded its roster with move ins and scholarship players play against us jut to see if our home town boys can beat them.  If you want to go to a private school do everything with a private school.

STBruin

There is no policing of the public schools, but let's complain about the private schools...school of choice is the biggest joke in regards to athletics...kids can go where ever they want, if they aren't happy, go some where else the next year...still not happy... go some where else

JessieP

Quote from: RazorDad on December 15, 2017, 02:58:05 pm
Yet another lame argument for separating out the privates from the publics in Arkansas.  Let's look at the private high school enrollment numbers from the AAA.  I will put include Catholic/MSM for a realistic analysis:

Catholic High/MSM                     970
Little Rock Christian Academy     405
Pulaski Academy                        311
Subiaco Academy                       251
Shiloh Christian                          231
Central Arkansas Christian           192
Baptist Prep                                179
Harding Academy                        177
Episcopal Collegiate                     152
Conway Christian                          92
St. Joseph                                    93
Trinity Christian                            60
Abundant Life                               59
Crowley's Ridge Academy              57
Ridgefield Christian                       53
Sacred Heart                                53

There are 17 private high schools in Arkansas with an enrollment of 3,335.  The total enrollment of all high schools in Arkansas is 112,337, so the privates represent 2.9 % of the HS student population.

Since you mentioned Mater Dei, let's look at California.

There are 430 private high schools in California with an enrollment of 133,000 students.  The total enrollment of all high schools in California is 2,008,650, so the privates represent 6.6 % of the HS student population.  Trinity League is just one of many private school leagues in California and consists of just seven of the private high schools in the Los Angeles area.:

Mater Dei                                     2100
Santa Margarita Catholic               1700
Lutheran                                      1322
Jserra Catholic                              1200
Servite (boys)                                920
St. John Bosco (boys)                     820
Rosary Academy (girls)                   370

Total Trinity League Enrollmen        8432

So as you can see, California (and the other states mentioned) have large enough of a private student populations to separate and have their own league, Arkansas obviously does not. heck, the entire private high school population of Arkansas is outnumbered by just Mater Dei and Santa Margarita.

So, we are back to the true heart of the matter - Is winning so important that you want to eliminate the competition by segregating them out?  Personally, I want to prove myself against the best. Removing your competition by administrative means makes any championship you receive just a participation trophy.

That is an interesting point. In fact I'd say it is quite profound. "Personally, I want to prove myself against the best." I couldn't agree more! Very very astute! Not only astute but spot on accurate. BTW, are you aware that Arkansas has a 6A and a 7A? It's funny how some, not all but some, PA fans want to jump right into the middle of the "Who's the best overall team in the State" discussion. Yet when forcing them to go to the highest classification becomes the discussion they reply "Don't be jealous" or "Why punish us for success, figure out a way to beat us". Your California point is correct, it's hardly apples to apples. The population of Southern California is such that you could make 10 Private school leagues and every school in every league would be as big as our 7A, Mater Dei was not the best example. It's just funny how, to some PA fans, moving up would be a punishment if discussed before or during the season, yet when the season is over they feel they belong in the "Who's best discussion". "Personally, I want to prove myself against the best." is the best point of all, the real question is why hasn't PA demanded that? Why would that be considered punishment?

PA Dad

Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 04:43:46 pm
That is an interesting point. In fact I'd say it is quite profound. "Personally, I want to prove myself against the best." I couldn't agree more! Very very astute! Not only astute but spot on accurate. BTW, are you aware that Arkansas has a 6A and a 7A? It's funny how some, not all but some, PA fans want to jump right into the middle of the "Who's the best overall team in the State" discussion. Yet when forcing them to go to the highest classification becomes the discussion they reply "Don't be jealous" or "Why punish us for success, figure out a way to beat us". Your California point is correct, it's hardly apples to apples. The population of Southern California is such that you could make 10 Private school leagues and every school in every league would be as big as our 7A, Mater Dei was not the best example. It's just funny how, to some PA fans, moving up would be a punishment if discussed before or during the season, yet when the season is over they feel they belong in the "Who's best discussion". "Personally, I want to prove myself against the best." is the best point of all, the real question is why hasn't PA demanded that? Why would that be considered punishment?

Go look at my prior posts.  I've always said that PA should move up.

JessieP

Quote from: PA Dad on December 15, 2017, 04:46:35 pm
Go look at my prior posts.  I've always said that PA should move up.

You are why I made a point to say some, not all. You have never said they shouldn't, you have never denied the advantages and you have never claimed they could bump heads with the best of the best. I find your praise of PA to be reasonable, informed and with managed expectations. I was very cognizant to word my post the way I did. Red Devil Alum, Bruin Backer and yourself have never taken the stance "we're the best because we work harder and will take on any and all challengers". Look at my past post, I have always maintained the majority of PA posters are articulate, informed and humble. Like Freud said "Humans ignore the 80% positive and focus on the 20% negative". It's the 20%, very much the minority, of PA fans who see the VV score and say "Heck, we could do that to IMG". I have never denied PA is the best football team in the 5A, not once. What gets me is the nimrods who start in with the "Were ranked in the Nation" or "Kelly should take over the Razorbacks" nonsense that angers up the blood. Heck, there is one fan that claims the East Salt Lake game was competitive.

PA Bruin Fan

Quote from: footballfan-tastic on December 15, 2017, 01:03:04 pm
There are plenty of quality private schools in the area that can provide a high quality education.  Clearly, we have the top private school football program.  So, as a parent, if that's important, you would target PA.  That's just my guess. 

I wonder do you have the top private school football program because of kids on scholarship?  If I could give a kid more money than actual tuition, if that is true, then isn't that paying them to play.

OMG this commit is so ridiculous.  Why would PA pay players?!?  PA doesn't make money off of the football team, unlike a football academy or a university program. 
Please think about your accusations before printing comments like this.  PA is a college prep school that happens to have a great football coach (and staff) and dedicated players.  The end.

PA Dad

Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 05:10:38 pm
You are why I made a point to say some, not all. You have never said they shouldn't, you have never denied the advantages and you have never claimed they could bump heads with the best of the best. I find your praise of PA to be reasonable, informed and with managed expectations. I was very cognizant to word my post the way I did. Red Devil Alum, Bruin Backer and yourself have never taken the stance "we're the best because we work harder and will take on any and all challengers". Look at my past post, I have always maintained the majority of PA posters are articulate, informed and humble. Like Freud said "Humans ignore the 80% positive and focus on the 20% negative". It's the 20%, very much the minority, of PA fans who see the VV score and say "Heck, we could do that to IMG". I have never denied PA is the best football team in the 5A, not once. What gets me is the nimrods who start in with the "Were ranked in the Nation" or "Kelly should take over the Razorbacks" nonsense that angers up the blood. Heck, there is one fan that claims the East Salt Lake game was competitive.

I like most of your posts because you are direct, sometimes to the point of being blunt.  Nothing wrong with that.

What gets lost in this thread are the facts.  PA does not have a bunch of players moving in.  Most have been at PA since grade school.  The few move ins we've had generally come from out of state.  So the argument that PA is grabbing talent from other schools just has no factual support.

I've pointed this out many times before so I know this will convince none of the naysayers.  But I still want the facts noted.

PA Bruin Fan

Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 05:10:38 pm
You are why I made a point to say some, not all. You have never said they shouldn't, you have never denied the advantages and you have never claimed they could bump heads with the best of the best. I find your praise of PA to be reasonable, informed and with managed expectations. I was very cognizant to word my post the way I did. Red Devil Alum, Bruin Backer and yourself have never taken the stance "we're the best because we work harder and will take on any and all challengers". Look at my past post, I have always maintained the majority of PA posters are articulate, informed and humble. Like Freud said "Humans ignore the 80% positive and focus on the 20% negative". It's the 20%, very much the minority, of PA fans who see the VV score and say "Heck, we could do that to IMG". I have never denied PA is the best football team in the 5A, not once. What gets me is the nimrods who start in with the "Were ranked in the Nation" or "Kelly should take over the Razorbacks" nonsense that angers up the blood. Heck, there is one fan that claims the East Salt Lake game was competitive.

I support PA moving up, but that's not PAs choice.

PA does work harder than most, that's why they win.  Feel free to articulate what the private school advantage means in points.  I've never denied it's an advantage but don't give it more credit than its due.  It doesn't provide four-peats.

That poster that said the salt lake game was competitive, pointed out the fact that PA out scored Salt Lake in the second half against starters. He was also a coach, so consider that.

Red Devil Alum

Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 05:10:38 pm
You are why I made a point to say some, not all. You have never said they shouldn't, you have never denied the advantages and you have never claimed they could bump heads with the best of the best. I find your praise of PA to be reasonable, informed and with managed expectations. I was very cognizant to word my post the way I did. Red Devil Alum, Bruin Backer and yourself have never taken the stance "we're the best because we work harder and will take on any and all challengers". Look at my past post, I have always maintained the majority of PA posters are articulate, informed and humble. Like Freud said "Humans ignore the 80% positive and focus on the 20% negative". It's the 20%, very much the minority, of PA fans who see the VV score and say "Heck, we could do that to IMG". I have never denied PA is the best football team in the 5A, not once. What gets me is the nimrods who start in with the "Were ranked in the Nation" or "Kelly should take over the Razorbacks" nonsense that angers up the blood. Heck, there is one fan that claims the East Salt Lake game was competitive.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  ;)

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 05:21:38 pm
I support PA moving up, but that's not PAs choice.

PA does work harder than most, that's why they win.  Feel free to articulate what the private school advantage means in points.  I've never denied it's an advantage but don't give it more credit than its due.  It doesn't provide four-peats.

That poster that said the salt lake game was competitive, pointed out the fact that PA out scored Salt Lake in the second half against starters. He was also a coach, so consider that.

The advantages can easily be made out to be what they are. Don't down play the fact that your football coach doesn't coach ESL kids, remedial kids, kids on free or reduced lunches, kids who can't afford top notch training or to workout more in the summer because they don't have to actually work to help their family, etc. It ALL factors in. Do some public schools enjoy some of these advantages? Yes. But they don't get all of the advantages. Mix the advantages with a good coach who gets paid an undisclosed amount, and you have the recipe for success. Kelley hasn't left for a reason..and it's not just because he enjoys PA. He knows he has a tremendous advantage in the state and he's holding on to it as long as he can.

The PA and salt lake game was never a game. Salt lake dominated them from the start. I watched most of it and they were just the better team, by far. That's not an insult to PA. East had a great team that season and it showed in all their games.

Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 05:13:37 pm
OMG this commit is so ridiculous.  Why would PA pay players?!?  PA doesn't make money off of the football team, unlike a football academy or a university program. 
Please think about your accusations before printing comments like this.  PA is a college prep school that happens to have a great football coach (and staff) and dedicated players.  The end.

This is a great point. So, since you know it all, could you let the rest of us know why a far greater amount of kids who play football received financial aid than any other sport? Or a higher percentage than the total? LRCA and Catholic are much bigger, yet PA gives way more kids on their football team financial aid than those two. Since you know they don't pay kids to come play football, I'm sure you must be able to explain the ratio discrepancy.

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Dad on December 15, 2017, 05:18:33 pm
I like most of your posts because you are direct, sometimes to the point of being blunt.  Nothing wrong with that.

What gets lost in this thread are the facts.  PA does not have a bunch of players moving in.  Most have been at PA since grade school.  The few move ins we've had generally come from out of state.  So the argument that PA is grabbing talent from other schools just has no factual support.

I've pointed this out many times before so I know this will convince none of the naysayers.  But I still want the facts noted.

Completely agree about the players not moving in. Every year, public schools have transfers that contribute to their team. The spot light is on PA though and when a player does transfer in, like Hunter Henry did, or DJ Williams at CAC, then people's heads turn. It actually happens more in public schools if I had to guess and it is constantly happening in basketball.

gameoflife

Quote from: footballfan-tastic on December 15, 2017, 01:03:04 pm


I wonder do you have the top private school football program because of kids on scholarship?  If I could give a kid more money than actual tuition, if that is true, then isn't that paying them to play.


I think this was a question.  Why would  a school give a kid more money than the amount of tuition?  That was the claim someone made and this sounds like they are asking if it's true.

gameoflife

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 15, 2017, 08:23:35 pm
Completely agree about the players not moving in. Every year, public schools have transfers that contribute to their team. The spot light is on PA though and when a player does transfer in, like Hunter Henry did, or DJ Williams at CAC, then people's heads turn. It actually happens more in public schools if I had to guess and it is constantly happening in basketball.

How many public schools have a kid on scholarship?  I remember a stink of two about another private school who got numerous transfer students and were supposed to be on scholarship.   It just looks shady. 

JessieP

Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 05:13:37 pm
OMG this commit is so ridiculous.  Why would PA pay players?!?  PA doesn't make money off of the football team, unlike a football academy or a university program. 
Please think about your accusations before printing comments like this.  PA is a college prep school that happens to have a great football coach (and staff) and dedicated players.  The end.

Yeah, that is far fetched. I mean why would PA focus on fielding a top notch team? It makes no sense. We all remember the HBO Real Sports segment on PA's Science department. Who can forget the ESPN story about their ACT prep courses. The CNNSI featurette about the History teachers was spellbinding. All of the media exposure came about as a result of their academic prowess. All the Alumni endowments are simply rewards for the top notch college preps courses. Forget football, the number of academic strictly students receiving financial aid is through the roof. Let's not forget, this is the deep south, trigonometry is king! What about that popular motion picture Friday Night literature? Yeah, why would any school, college or high school, pay good money to field a successful football team?   

PA Bruin Fan

Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 08:39:05 pm
Yeah, that is far fetched. I mean why would PA focus on fielding a top notch team? It makes no sense. We all remember the HBO Real Sports segment on PA's Science department. Who can forget the ESPN story about their ACT prep courses. The CNNSI featurette about the History teachers was spellbinding. All of the media exposure came about as a result of their academic prowess. All the Alumni endowments are simply rewards for the top notch college preps courses. Forget football, the number of academic strictly students receiving financial aid is through the roof. Let's not forget, this is the deep south, trigonometry is king! What about that popular motion picture Friday Night literature? Yeah, why would any school, college or high school, pay good money to field a successful football team?   

Are you going to come to a point?  What does PA gain from paying players?  That's ridiculous.  I recall last  time you said it was "pride".  If there is no financial or economic benefit, why would PA do that? 

JessieP

Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 08:52:18 pm
Are you going to come to a point?  What does PA gain from paying players?  That's ridiculous.  I recall last  time you said it was "pride".  If there is no financial or economic benefit, why would PA do that?

They win championships, they are featured on numerous media outlets, the interest in the school skyrockets, the donations/gifts/endowments increase exponentially, financial gain.

PA Bruin Fan

Really?  Are you serious?  CKK is on ESPN for 15 seconds years ago and you think people mail us money?  Jess, I think you should stop and let the adults talk now.  You're not helping anyone's cause here. 

PA Bruin Fan

Quote from: MDXPHD on December 15, 2017, 08:20:58 pm
The advantages can easily be made out to be what they are. Don't down play the fact that your football coach doesn't coach ESL kids, remedial kids, kids on free or reduced lunches, kids who can't afford top notch training or to workout more in the summer because they don't have to actually work to help their family, etc. It ALL factors in. Do some public schools enjoy some of these advantages? Yes. But they don't get all of the advantages. Mix the advantages with a good coach who gets paid an undisclosed amount, and you have the recipe for success. Kelley hasn't left for a reason..and it's not just because he enjoys PA. He knows he has a tremendous advantage in the state and he's holding on to it as long as he can.

The PA and salt lake game was never a game. Salt lake dominated them from the start. I watched most of it and they were just the better team, by far. That's not an insult to PA. East had a great team that season and it showed in all their games.

This is a great point. So, since you know it all, could you let the rest of us know why a far greater amount of kids who play football received financial aid than any other sport? Or a higher percentage than the total? LRCA and Catholic are much bigger, yet PA gives way more kids on their football team financial aid than those two. Since you know they don't pay kids to come play football, I'm sure you must be able to explain the ratio discrepancy.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I just saw this.  So, a couple of things first.  Every student receiving aid that plays a sport must have their financial aid approved by AAA.  This application process takes place every year and any change in assets or income greater than $10k must be reported.  Point being, AAA sees all of this.  Additionally, the large percentage can partially, if not completely, be attributed to the size of the school.  The number of students that play football relative to the student population is large. 

Most importantly, and I've said this before, if you are within range of the school and you have a kid with talent and need aid, why wouldn't you attempt to go to PA? 

You are making the assumption that PA selects great athletes and then works magic to get them financial aid.  Many PA posters have pointed out numerous times that a majority of these kids have been at PA since 5th grade or earlier. 

Lastly, I've asked for the source of info.  Where are you getting these numbers?  I'd like to see for myself. 

JessieP

Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 09:57:42 pm
Really?  Are you serious?  CKK is on ESPN for 15 seconds years ago and you think people mail us money?  Jess, I think you should stop and let the adults talk now.  You're not helping anyone's cause here.

Mail you money? Wow, that's powerful naive. Do you realize you are denying the gifts and other endowments that PA has admitted for years. The new weight room? Try and read this real slow, have someone help you out, a gift/endowment/donation are all names for someone giving you money. I've heard the Jr. High is in disrepair, I don't see any wealthy benefactors writing big checks to fix that. I realize this whole football thing is pretty new to you, that "they lift weights in the summer" comment proved that, but please don't try and deny football, either directly or indirectly makes money. You may be the lone PA fan that denies that.

PA Bruin Fan

Quote from: JessieP on December 15, 2017, 10:50:31 pm
Mail you money? Wow, that's powerful naive. Do you realize you are denying the gifts and other endowments that PA has admitted for years. The new weight room? Try and read this real slow, have someone help you out, a gift/endowment/donation are all names for someone giving you money. I've heard the Jr. High is in disrepair, I don't see any wealthy benefactors writing big checks to fix that. I realize this whole football thing is pretty new to you, that "they lift weights in the summer" comment proved that, but please don't try and deny football, either directly or indirectly makes money. You may be the lone PA fan that denies that.

FOOTBALL MAKES PA MONEY....WHAT?  Are you high?  We have a spectacular weight room because parents of football players donated the money.  Period.  That's doesn't even remotely suggest that the program benefits the rest of the school financially.  Seriously, you are special kind of stupid. 

MDXPHD

Quote from: PA Bruin Fan on December 15, 2017, 10:12:22 pm
Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I just saw this.  So, a couple of things first.  Every student receiving aid that plays a sport must have their financial aid approved by AAA.  This application process takes place every year and any change in assets or income greater than $10k must be reported.  Point being, AAA sees all of this.  Additionally, the large percentage can partially, if not completely, be attributed to the size of the school.  The number of students that play football relative to the student population is large. 

Most importantly, and I've said this before, if you are within range of the school and you have a kid with talent and need aid, why wouldn't you attempt to go to PA? 

You are making the assumption that PA selects great athletes and then works magic to get them financial aid.  Many PA posters have pointed out numerous times that a majority of these kids have been at PA since 5th grade or earlier. 

Lastly, I've asked for the source of info.  Where are you getting these numbers?  I'd like to see for myself.

AAA can see how many get financial aid, but there's no limit or anything so it's not like there is a screening process by AAA. And I understand that you don't want there to be a correlation between financial aid and success, but it's hard to think there isn't. Baptist prep gives a higher percentage of their basketball team financial aid. Guess what sport they're good at? There is a 2A private school in South arkansas that gives a higher percentage of their track athletes financial aid. They are dominant at track. When you look at these numbers, it's just a little crazy.

I did a FOI request last spring of the documents required to be submitted to AAA. That's where I got all these numbers from. Sorry I didn't see the question sooner.

MDXPHD

Oh and if I was in the little rock area, my kid would absolutely go to PA or LRCA or another private. But that doesn't change my stance on the advantages and a new method of reclassification. Classifying based solely on numbers Is just not a good method. And really, it's just because people are lazy and want an easy way to classify.

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