Public vs Private Schools Pile (Past/Present/Future/All Classes)

[JessieP]

The many trappings of wealth is certainly a factor, Jessie.  As a long time "school man", I can attest to the advantages that wealth (or at least living comfortably) had on all areas of a student's achievement.  It's a factor.  Now provide that advantage to every student in the school and you have created an atmosphere of success, achievement, and expectation that is rarely (but occasionally) achieved in the average public school. At that point you have an advantage upon which the school MAY capitalize, according to their priorities.

Yes, it's an advantage, I agree 100%. It is not an unfair advantage, you do not make changes based on the environment in which the kids live. The only I have had with PA is unfair advantages, it seems there are none. I was falsely told by a BJHS assistant coach that you could only transfer and play football if the school you were attending didn't offer football. That appears to be wrong, you can play wherever you want, no reason needed. The confusing thing to me is that MDX posted separating the schools public/private would be disastrous because kids would be jumping ship mid season. Then he said they would have to sit out a year? which is it? it can't be both. I honestly did not realize that district boundaries have no bearing whatsoever in Arkansas interscholastic athletics, it's a sports buffet.     

[MDXPHD]

Yes, it's an advantage, I agree 100%. It is not an unfair advantage, you do not make changes based on the environment in which the kids live. The only I have had with PA is unfair advantages, it seems there are none. I was falsely told by a BJHS assistant coach that you could only transfer and play football if the school you were attending didn't offer football. That appears to be wrong, you can play wherever you want, no reason needed. The confusing thing to me is that MDX posted separating the schools public/private would be disastrous because kids would be jumping ship mid season. Then he said they would have to sit out a year? which is it? it can't be both. I honestly did not realize that district boundaries have no bearing whatsoever in Arkansas interscholastic athletics, it's a sports buffet.   

I said if privates made their own leage they could make their own transfer rules. I explained above what the current rule is for AAA.

[JessieP]

I said if privates made their own leage they could make their own transfer rules. I explained above what the current rule is for AAA.

Again, I was uninformed. When I was playing, 275 years ago, they had boundaries. It was such a big deal that schools like Plano East, De Soto and Cedar Hill were often accused of renting apartments to establish residency. There were actual "spot checks" of some accused players addresses to see if they actually had clothes hanging in the closet or other proof they really lived there, not just using an address. I was ignorant to the rules of Arkansas, it's a free for all. A kid hates Black and Orange, just go to Cave City or Southside, no biggie. My whole thrust was that PA was not only beefing up their roster they were weakening other team's by poaching players. That has been shown to be false, the field is level. The funny thing is they are actually being treated unfairly, they should be a 4A team, can you imagine? Now that people have shown me where I was wrong the entire public school/private school debate seems stupid. Cuter cheerleaders has more bearing on success.

[Intelligentsia]

I'll respectfully disagree about the advantage issue.  Privates do have that family resource advantage.  As such,  A remedy has been instituted.  The question is, is that remedy sufficient to develop EQUITY (which is defined in this situation as unequal treatment to achieve equality).  The remedy, as you know, is having privates play at a higher classification.   It seems to be a fair remedy.  Again, the question is, is moving up one classification sufficient?  Two classifications?  Three?  My proposal (ad nauseam), is the success model applied to privates (for only the specific sport(s) in which they dominate.

[Intelligentsia]

Almost total random note: When I have the great pleasure of using the Latin "ad noseuem", it always reminds me of learning, during a visit to THE Colosseum, that the exits are called "vomitorium".  Where the crowd is vomited out of the arena after an event!!   Double side note, I also learned at the time that the word "arena" is derived from "harena" which is Latin for sand .  The sand being placed on the ground to help soak up all the blood.

[Overdahill]

Almost total random note: When I have the great pleasure of using the Latin "ad noseuem", it always reminds me of learning, during a visit to THE Colosseum, that the exits are called "vomitorium".  Where the crowd is vomited out of the arena after an event!!   Double side note, I also learned at the time that the word "arena" is derived from "harena" which is Latin for sand .  The sand being placed on the ground to help soak up all the blood.

Speaking of random side notes, I went to a UFC title fight one time and 19,000 people went all out of their seats at once and thought the roof going to blow right off the place when the guys were going toe to toe beating the #$%^ out of each other. It was like an instinctual, primitive reaction that affected everyone all at once. Made me wonder what the Colosseum must of been like

[JessieP]

Speaking of random side notes, I went to a UFC title fight one time and 19,000 people went all out of their seats at once and thought the roof going to blow right off the place when the guys were going toe to toe beating the #$%^ out of each other. It was like an instinctual, primitive reaction that affected everyone all at once. Made me wonder what the Colosseum must of been like

Almost total random note: When I have the great pleasure of using the Latin "ad noseuem", it always reminds me of learning, during a visit to THE Colosseum, that the exits are called "vomitorium".  Where the crowd is vomited out of the arena after an event!!   Double side note, I also learned at the time that the word "arena" is derived from "harena" which is Latin for sand .  The sand being placehttp://www.fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/Themes/core/images/bbc/table.gifd on the ground to help soak up all the blood.

Ha! I got ya both beat. You don't want to get into an educational/cultural reminiscing debate with me. One time I went to Branson and I won a free nights stay, all I had to do was listen to a 4 hour sales pitch. Top that! 

[Gravelbar]

Again, I was uninformed. When I was playing, 275 years ago, they had boundaries. It was such a big deal that schools like Plano East, De Soto and Cedar Hill were often accused of renting apartments to establish residency. There were actual "spot checks" of some accused players addresses to see if they actually had clothes hanging in the closet or other proof they really lived there, not just using an address. I was ignorant to the rules of Arkansas, it's a free for all. A kid hates Black and Orange, just go to Cave City or Southside, no biggie. My whole thrust was that PA was not only beefing up their roster they were weakening other team's by poaching players. That has been shown to be false, the field is level. The funny thing is they are actually being treated unfairly, they should be a 4A team, can you imagine? Now that people have shown me where I was wrong the entire public school/private school debate seems stupid. Cuter cheerleaders has more bearing on success.

I have 4 different school district busses that come by my house everyday.  It needs to go back to the way it used to be where another district's bus didn't cross the line and snipe kids from that district.  If they wanted to go to another district they had to find a way to get to that school.  School choice laws changed all that and districts are battling for kids so much that they run busses all over other districts now.  Now, that isn't  that big a deal for the bigger cities, but for rural areas it causes 25 mile bus trips in some cases, and that's one way.

[bulldogger15]

I'll respectfully disagree about the advantage issue.  Privates do have that family resource advantage.  As such,  A remedy has been instituted.  The question is, is that remedy sufficient to develop EQUITY (which is defined in this situation as unequal treatment to achieve equality).  The remedy, as you know, is having privates play at a higher classification.   It seems to be a fair remedy.  Again, the question is, is moving up one classification sufficient?  Two classifications?  Three?  My proposal (ad nauseam), is the success model applied to privates (for only the specific sport(s) in which they dominate.

Bare minimum two classifications. It really wouldn't do much good this year. Pulaski Academy had a rough time pulling out a close win against a mediocre 4A team.

GO BULLDOGS!!!

[PA Dad]

Bare minimum two classifications. It really wouldn't do much good this year. Pulaski Academy had a rough time pulling out a close win against a mediocre 4A team.

GO BULLDOGS!!!

Really?  What 4A team did PA play?  You need to check your facts.  But, that's not surprising- you've never been concerned with facts.

[PrivateLesson]

I said if privates made their own leage they could make their own transfer rules. I explained above what the current rule is for AAA.

Good thought.   AAA guidelines apply to any school that plays for a State title.  Boundary lines are subject to busing routes and county division lines...we all know this.   I don't see a league for privates ever developing because there simply isn't as many private schools as public schools.   They could always go independent but I don't ever see that happening.   

[Maynard G Krebs]

Really?  What 4A team did PA play?  You need to check your facts.  But, that's not surprising- you've never been concerned with facts.

So true.  Never let facts interfere with a good storyline.   Some folk just dig a deeper hole everyday regarding lack of credibility. 

[PrivateLesson]

Shoot....you mean we can't bluff our way on here?!   

[Maynard G Krebs]

Shoot....you mean we can't bluff our way on here?!   

It's always fun to try.. keeps things interesting, to say the least

[JessieP]

So true.  Never let facts interfere with a good storyline.   Some folk just dig a deeper hole everyday regarding lack of credibility.

You and PA Dad still don't get it. PA did lose to all 4A teams, in bulldogger's world. He's not lying, he is 100% honest. He spends virtually no time in our world (reality), his newspapers and tv shows write endlessly about Greenwoods 17 year undefeated streak. He has DVR'd every single one of PA's loses in their currant 26 game losing streak. In his world Coach Jones walks around naked all day every day and Coach Kelley sleeps under a bridge and begs for change. Bulldogger see's things so much clearer since he stopped taking that cursed Lithium and Seroquel. He is also expanding his horizons, he recently finished his first book. He was pleased with it except the pages he messed up and colored the leaves blue....why do you debate this clown? he has yet to post a cognitive lucid point.

[DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam]

You and PA Dad still don't get it. PA did lose to all 4A teams, in bulldogger's world. He's not lying, he is 100% honest. He spends virtually no time in our world (reality), his newspapers and tv shows write endlessly about Greenwoods 17 year undefeated streak. He has DVR'd every single one of PA's loses in their currant 26 game losing streak. In his world Coach Jones walks around naked all day every day and Coach Kelley sleeps under a bridge and begs for change. Bulldogger see's things so much clearer since he stopped taking that cursed Lithium and Seroquel. He is also expanding his horizons, he recently finished his first book. He was pleased with it except the pages he messed up and colored the leaves blue....why do you debate this clown? he has yet to post a cognitive lucid point.

What's wrong with Lithium? 

[Maynard G Krebs]

What's wrong with Lithium?

Narrow therapeutic window, renal toxicity, et al.  Properly utilized, it is an effective mood stabilizer.

(Not a MD, but stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night😋

[nuttinbuthogs]

Good thought.   AAA guidelines apply to any school that plays for a State title.  Boundary lines are subject to busing routes and county division lines...we all know this.   I don't see a league for privates ever developing because there simply isn't as many private schools as public schools.   They could always go independent but I don't ever see that happening.   

There doesn't have to be as many private schools to have their own league does there.  I don't see it happening either but it would not hurt my feelings if it did. 

[JessieP]

Narrow therapeutic window, renal toxicity, et al.  Properly utilized, it is an effective mood stabilizer.

(Not a MD, but stayed at Holiday Inn Express last night😋

The voices in my head told me to flush the lithium, so I did.

[Bruin Backer]

The voices in my head told me to flush the lithium, so I did.

I guess that explains the report that Game & Fish biologists have noted that the cutthroat trout in the White River near Batesville have morphed into merciful trout, and are gathering in schools to sing Onward Pioneers.

[JessieP]

I guess that explains the report that Game & Fish biologists have noted that the cutthroat trout in the White River near Batesville have morphed into merciful trout, and are gathering in schools to sing Onward Pioneers.

And there's a lot more of them, I also flushed the Viagra. That came from the voice that sleeps next to me.

[Maynard G Krebs]

And there's a lot more of them, I also flushed the Viagra. That came from the voice that sleeps next to me.

The patron gods of procreation thank you profusely 😜

[PrivateLesson]

I'm not touching that one. lol

There doesn't have to be as many private schools to have their own league does there.  I don't see it happening either but it would not hurt my feelings if it did. 

No, I don't think so but I don't know how you could justify a few schools in a seperate league unless maybe you could extend that to surrounding states?   I lean more towards something of the model Mr.PhD has come up with but even then the question of fairness to all schools comes up once again.  I don't know a win-win solution. 

[nuttinbuthogs]

I have always thought of the AAA as an organization that starts with public schools that allowed private school participation.  The big loosers would be private schools not public if the private had to go to their own league.  Private schools should work harder to avoid the claims of recruitment, and all that other stuff.

[rzrbackfan]

being a walk on isnt the issue.  Being a D1 player is.  If they walked on and made the squad, them they are a D1 athlete.  Who's that guy that was at Arkansas that walked on the I think they made a movie about him, you know went on to sign with the NFL.

This is too funny lets use an example of an incredible feat and try and make it the ordinary!!  If that's the case everyone needs to watch movie on Vince Papale who was a regular guy who tried out with the Eagles and made the team and played 2 years in the NFL.  So what does Brandon Burlsworth who is a graduate of Harrison AR have anything to do with private school kids.  Is it just the fact that he walked on and you needed a success story?  I promise there are more walk ons that never see the field than Brandon's

[PrivateLesson]

Have any of you ever read about the formation of the AAA and the current 300+ schools it governs?   It discusses private schools.

[PrivateLesson]

I have always thought of the AAA as an organization that starts with public schools that allowed private school participation.  The big loosers would be private schools not public if the private had to go to their own league.  Private schools should work harder to avoid the claims of recruitment, and all that other stuff.

To be fair......private schools are not the only schools who have been subject to the claims of recruitment. 

[rzrbackfan]

It would be disastrous to the public schools. Regardless of how competitive it is, the public schools would suffer greatly. If you guys think privates don't play by the rules or have too relaxed rules now, could you imagine what their rules would allow them to do if they created their own league? Public schools would be losing athletes left and right. Separating them is absolutely not the answer.

Lets just give all the Public Schools that "cant compete" participation awards.  That way their all winners!!!  Sounds like if the SEC decided that AL was winning too many titles so they refused to allow them to play in the SEC championship anymore so other teams would have more of a chance.

[rzrbackfan]

Bare minimum two classifications. It really wouldn't do much good this year. Pulaski Academy had a rough time pulling out a close win against a mediocre 4A team.

GO BULLDOGS!!!

Im not even a PA fan and this is too good coming from the ND of High School Football.  Let us know when you play a real 7A school!!!  Did you beat Army and Navy again I mean Northside and Southside???  Good job!!! 

[blueandwhite]

You know we are only talking about 10 private schools in Arkansas that play football in the AAA. I know there are a few that play in the Mississippi private school league, and a few that play 8 man in Oklahoma.

But the 10 schools out of 200+ that play football, their combined record is 43-47. It is not like they are winning every championship.

So why are we arguing here?

[DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam]

Im not even a PA fan and this is too good coming from the ND of High School Football.  Let us know when you play a real 7A school!!!  Did you beat Army and Navy again I mean Northside and Southside???  Good job!!! 

2017
Greenwood  24 vs Northside  7
Greenwood 49 vs Southside 0

2016
Greenwood 33 vs Northside 25
Greenwood 56 vs Southside 34

2015
Greenwood  63 vs Springdale 28
Greenwood 38 vs Southside 31
Greenwood 34 vs Northside 24
Greenwood 45 vs Van Buren 14
Greenwood 56 vs Conway 19
Greenwood 38 vs Bryant 7
Greenwood 42 vs LR Catholic 21

Please continue with your logic.

[rzrbackfan]

2017
Greenwood  24 vs Northside  7
Greenwood 49 vs Southside 0

2016
Greenwood 33 vs Northside 25
Greenwood 56 vs Southside 34

2015
Greenwood  63 vs Springdale 28
Greenwood 38 vs Southside 31
Greenwood 34 vs Northside 24
Greenwood 45 vs Van Buren 14
Greenwood 56 vs Conway 19
Greenwood 38 vs Bryant 7
Greenwood 42 vs LR Catholic 21

Please continue with your logic.

2016
Russellville 37, Greenwood 23
Greenwood 31, Pine Bluff 30
Greenwood 27, Russellville 24

2015
Pine Bluff 28, Greenwood 21

Point is a win is a win.  I am not saying at all Greenwood is overrated in any means.  I think they have put together some of the best football teams in the State!  Sometimes you aren't very lucky in the teams in your region and you play down to their level.  I would bet weekly on Greenwood VS any 7A school, but they don't have the opportunity to play more than Northside / Southside usually.  As shown by your message 2017 and 2016 Northside and Southside. 

[DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam]

2016
Russellville 37, Greenwood 23
Greenwood 31, Pine Bluff 30
Greenwood 27, Russellville 24

2015
Pine Bluff 28, Greenwood 21

Point is a win is a win.  I am not saying at all Greenwood is overrated in any means.  I think they have put together some of the best football teams in the State!  Sometimes you aren't very lucky in the teams in your region and you play down to their level.  I would bet weekly on Greenwood VS any 7A school, but they don't have the opportunity to play more than Northside / Southside usually.  As shown by your message 2017 and 2016 Northside and Southside. 

Your post said "Let us know when you play a real 7A school!!!"   I gave you our record against 7A schools over the past 3 years.   Don't spout off crap, and then when you're put in your place, change the argument!

[rzrbackfan]

Your post said "Let us know when you play a real 7A school!!!"   I gave you our record against 7A schools over the past 3 years.   Don't spout off crap, and then when you're put in your place, change the argument!

My place??  HA HA so in 2015 you played more than Northside and Southside.  Congrats rest of the years is exactly like I said you played Northside and Southside and beat them.  Congrats!!!

[photographer]

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[Maynard G Krebs]

.

didn't quite catch that

[dip2172]

Does anyone know if any schools, public or private, are having athletes redshirt their 8th grade year?  Here's an article explaining what I'm talking about:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.nj.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/09/how_redshirting_is_changing_hs_sports.amp

Years ago, I heard that LRCA had some players doing this, but I have no idea if it was true.  I'd be interested to know.

[Maynard G Krebs]

Does anyone know if any schools, public or private, are having athletes redshirt their 8th grade year?  Here's an article explaining what I'm talking about:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.nj.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/09/how_redshirting_is_changing_hs_sports.amp

Years ago, I heard that LRCA had some players doing this, but I have no idea if it was true.  I'd be interested to know.

This has been going on for years.   Seen it at all type schools.  My guess it is more specific to parents' decisions than it is to school.

[MDXPHD]

A lot of parents just start their kids a year late these days. It doesn't help in just sports, but a year difference in maturity at high school and junior high is huge. It also depends on when their birthday falls too.

A book I recently read, Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, touches on this. It also touches on how the birthdays can effect pro athletes as well. Interesting read if any of you guys have some free time.

[PA Bruin Fan]

This has been going on for years.   Seen it at all type schools.  My guess it is more specific to parents' decisions than it is to school.

I see it quite a bit at PA, but the boys were held back early in elementary school, not 8th grade.  Wouldn't hazard a guess as to what percentage, but it happens. 

[Red Devil Alum]

A lot of parents just start their kids a year late these days. It doesn't help in just sports, but a year difference in maturity at high school and junior high is huge. It also depends on when their birthday falls too.

A book I recently read, Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, touches on this. It also touches on how the birthdays can effect pro athletes as well. Interesting read if any of you guys have some free time.

Great book. The 10,000 hour rule is very interesting.

[MDXPHD]

Great book. The 10,000 hour rule is very interesting.

Agreed. If only I had that much time to put into one thing...

[Maynard G Krebs]

I see it quite a bit at PA, but the boys were held back early in elementary school, not 8th grade.  Wouldn't hazard a guess as to what percentage, but it happens.

When my son was a senior, most of the juniors  were older than him.  All had started elemenfary school late

[Overdahill]

This has been going on for years.   Seen it at all type schools.  My guess it is more specific to parents' decisions than it is to school.

I had a son and a daughter born in Texas; guess which one they held back? Sent him him from 1st grade on day one

[Red Devil Alum]

Agreed. If only I had that much time to put into one thing...

Don't you have that many hours on Fearless Friday. 

[MDXPHD]

Don't you have that many hours on Fearless Friday. 

Not quite I don't think! But I can't wait to become an expert on here.

[Maynard G Krebs]

Not quite I don't think! But I can't wait to become an expert on here.

Be patient

[South 45]

I'm bumping this back to the top for other new comers like myself. Imo this single largest issue in high school sports.

[woopork]

http://highschoolsports.al.com/news/article/7525968876148278394/what-private-school-teams-are-moving-up-because-of-competitive-balance/

Article about Alabama's private school rule effects

[MDXPHD]

These numbers represent the number of football players in grades 10-12 that received financial aid for 2016.

Conway Christian - 1
Shiloh - 2
Harding - 4
Episcopal - 5
CAC - 5
Baptist - 6
Catholic - 7
LRCA - 9
Pulaski Academy - 20 (won state championship)

Catholic has 758 students in their school alone. LRCA is also larger than PA with 817 students enrolled. Do what you want with this information, but it seemed important on this thread and the 5A football board. I don't have much time to post these days, but I'll post more information if it seems important enough. Also, let me know if I left out a football school. It seems that there are 9 or so in the state, with 209 schools overall that participate in football. I probably won't have time to respond to any inquiries regarding this post, just a heads up.

Bringing this back because it's fun to see. If only LRCA had offered more scholarships...they may have closed the gap a little. Trending in the right direction though.