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Illegal Participation

Started by OldRetired1, September 10, 2016, 12:32:12 pm

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OldRetired1

Are these situations enforced at NCAA and NFL?

#1 Offensive team lines up in a 2 x 2 with RBs in the "I."  Obviously 12 left the huddle.  Is this a penalty?

#2 Offense is going fast.  Defense is trying to sub and has 13 players on the field.  Umpire steps in and stops the offense from snapping the ball and allows the 2 players to run off.  Is this correct?

Rulesman

Can't speak for the NFL, but under NCAA rules the answer is yes, it is illegal to break the huddle with more than 11.

In NCAA rules if the offense subs, the defense has the right to sub to match up personnel. This is to discourage late offensive substitutions. If the play clock runs out in that situation  the onus is on the offense. Your example does not mention the offense subbing, so the answer could be yes or no.

OldRetired1

Thank you.

What about the HS level?

Rulesman

No rule against breaking the huddle with 12. No matchup rule on substitutions either.

Jimbo Morphis

Quote from: Rulesman on September 14, 2016, 09:18:18 am
No rule against breaking the huddle with 12. No matchup rule on substitutions either.
This should be announced before every high school game, lol.

arreferee

Quote from: Oldman on September 14, 2016, 10:09:09 am
This should be announced before every high school game, lol.

:D  You know the fans don't listen to the announcements before the game.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: arreferee on September 14, 2016, 10:48:10 am
:D  You know the fans don't listen to the announcements before the game.

Most places in the smaller classes, you can't hear the PA on the other side of the field anyway

Rulesman

Quote from: Oldman on September 14, 2016, 10:09:09 am
This should be announced before every high school game, lol.
Add uncatchable passes do not exist, pass interference is not an automatic first down, and there is no such thing as a tackle box.

HorseFeathers

Quote from: Rulesman on September 14, 2016, 06:33:14 pm
Add uncatchable passes do not exist, pass interference is not an automatic first down, and there is no such thing as a tackle box.

are there any auto first downs in high school?

72113


arreferee

Quote from: HorseFeathers on September 14, 2016, 06:22:39 pm
Most places in the smaller classes, you can't hear the PA on the other side of the field anyway

True, but on the flip side, I've been in a couple of games where we had to shut the PA announcer down because he was doing play-by-play.  In one instance, the visiting team was running a reverse.  Right at the time the second handoff was happening, we heard "It's a reverse!!!" over the PA system.  :)

Lions84

Quote from: arreferee on September 15, 2016, 08:41:36 am
True, but on the flip side, I've been in a couple of games where we had to shut the PA announcer down because he was doing play-by-play.  In one instance, the visiting team was running a reverse.  Right at the time the second handoff was happening, we heard "It's a reverse!!!" over the PA system.  :)
LOL!!

OldRetired1

Thank you. 

What about lining up with 12 on the field.  Does the ball have to be snapped before a flag is thrown?

Rulesman

Quote from: OldRetired1 on September 16, 2016, 10:11:39 am
Thank you. 

What about lining up with 12 on the field.  Does the ball have to be snapped before a flag is thrown?
No

6ASOUTHPURPLECAT

So throw the flag before the snap and get illegal substitution. See it after the snap and it's illegal participation, correct? And different results on how much it will cost you too. Correct?

dragondad

Aparently breaking the huddle with 12 is a penalty in LA,  JC got a flag for it tonight.

Rulesman


dragondad


arreferee


bdubyab60

Ive seen it called a few times. Guess it just depends on the crew.

Adjudicator

Quote from: Rulesman on September 14, 2016, 06:33:14 pm
Add uncatchable passes do not exist, pass interference is not an automatic first down, and there is no such thing as a tackle box.
And there is no such thing as a kicking ball!!

SUGARTOWN


dragondad

So in HS, if the huddle breaks with 12, at what point does the IP take effect?  At what point does the 12th man have to be off the field in order to no draw a penalty?

arreferee

Quote from: dragondad on October 08, 2016, 03:01:03 pm
So in HS, if the huddle breaks with 12, at what point does the IP take effect?  At what point does the 12th man have to be off the field in order to no draw a penalty?

The replaced player has to leave "immediately" after being informed he is being replaced.  3 seconds was always considered "immediately" for this circumstance.

~WPS~

What if a player on defense runs out on to the field before the snap, but after the ready for play has been signaled, and when he enters the field he is on the offense's side of the ball on his way to the defense side. Is that an offsides penalty?

arreferee

Quote from: ~WPS~ on October 10, 2016, 10:03:06 am
What if a player on defense runs out on to the field before the snap, but after the ready for play has been signaled, and when he enters the field he is on the offense's side of the ball on his way to the defense side. Is that an offsides penalty?

No, it's not a foul.  If he is on the offensive side of the ball when it's snapped, that's a foul. 

Cowkilr13

Illegal substitution is five yard pentalty. It is thrown when a player doesnt get of the field before the snap. Or when they  lineup with more than 11.
Illegal partisipation is 15 yards. This is when the ball is snapped and player partisipates in play.
There is no rule for breaking huddle with 12 men. This is from the nfhs.org

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