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Author Topic: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV  (Read 2241 times)

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Offline SardisHog

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Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« on: December 09, 2017, 03:51:09 pm »
What is the justification for giving Warren a penalty when a fan runs on the field? I have no sides in the game just enjoyed watching a good game but don't understand the logic or I guess the rule book.

Offline RamFan06

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 04:02:52 pm »
They had already gotten a sideline warning and from what i understand the fan had been standing on the Warren sideline.

Offline trevster10

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 04:45:56 pm »
I've heard conflicting reports from a number of different people on what happened. If someone was there or is privy to the situation, could you please explain the situation in its entirety?

I've heard there was a penalty involved, a fan ran on the field, a spike situation? Honestly, the ending sounds very intriguing but I would love it if someone could connect the dots for me.

Online AirWarren

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2017, 12:46:38 am »
I've heard conflicting reports from a number of different people on what happened. If someone was there or is privy to the situation, could you please explain the situation in its entirety?

I've heard there was a penalty involved, a fan ran on the field, a spike situation? Honestly, the ending sounds very intriguing but I would love it if someone could connect the dots for me.

Warren gets to the 9 yard line.
Warren sets up to run a play. Shotgun. No timeouts.
Fan runs on the field.
Delay.
Officials congregation.
Warren penalized with unsportsmanlike penalty from the fan. 
Ball moved back accordingly.
Clock was at 3 when Treylon was in shotgun. After fiasco and penalty, time was
Changed to 12 sec from 3.

Warren throws a interception.


My recollection.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 12:48:22 am by AirWarren »

Offline Wonderdog

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2017, 07:32:38 pm »
Warren gets to the 9 yard line.
Warren sets up to run a play. Shotgun. No timeouts.
Fan runs on the field.
Delay.
Officials congregation.
Warren penalized with unsportsmanlike penalty from the fan. 
Ball moved back accordingly.
Clock was at 3 when Treylon was in shotgun. After fiasco and penalty, time was
Changed to 12 sec from 3.

Warren throws a interception.


My recollection.
Well summarized, I also was in attendance trevster. The above is accurate. Lots of things that could be discussed about the final ten minutes leading up to the end of the game.

Offline trevster10

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2017, 10:31:34 am »
Okay, okay that makes a lot more sense - thank you. So, the debate seems to be on because they were lined up in the shotgun, if they would have spiked the ball, there would have been a penalty assessed? From the limited research I was able to find, this would have been a 5 yard penalty compared to the (I'm assuming) 15 yard penalty for the unsportsmanlike penalty that Warren received for the fan running on the field?

Offline new2karting

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2017, 02:20:02 pm »
Grounding the ball from a shotgun position to conserve time is an Intentional Grounding foul (7-5-2e) which has a 5 yard penalty and loss of down from the spot from which it is thrown.

Offline SardisHog

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2017, 07:04:09 pm »
That was irrelevant because it did not occur. They may have been attempting to pass into the End Zone from the 9-yard line. The problem I have is penalizing Warren because the fan ran out of the field. I realize because of that fans action the clock was stopped which gave Warren an advantage over Arkadelphia since they had no more timeouts. In trying to be fair it's a tough situation.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 07:07:04 pm by SardisHog »

Offline LAfootball fan

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2017, 08:49:36 pm »
How did it give Warren an unfair advantage?  Warren had already snapped the ball when play was stopped.  Time was not going to run out before Warren got to run a play.  The play had already been signaled in to Burks as he was walking back to set up for the play. 

Second, Warren was on  the 7 yard line, not 9 yard line when play was stopped. 

Third, Warren had Arkadelphia's defense scrambling just as much as Warren was scrambling on offense to run that  last play before play got stopped.  Arkadelphia had a chance to discuss their defensive alignment just as much as Warren was going to get to discuss their play call.  No advantage to either  team.

Fourth, Burks  was not going to ground the ball.  If he was, you would have seen him throw it straight down when he received the snap.  Warren had a play called.  Whether that was to throw it to the  WR on the left side or throw it  at the  running backs feet, I do not know but Burks  would have had time to do either one. 

Offline whitecoco

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2017, 12:23:33 pm »
After the clock stopped, Warren ran out the field goal team. With the penalty, Warren was taken out of field goal range. 12 seconds were put on the clock, which was plenty of time to run two plays.

Offline Wonderdog

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2017, 11:58:31 pm »
How did it give Warren an unfair advantage?  Warren had already snapped the ball when play was stopped.  Time was not going to run out before Warren got to run a play.  The play had already been signaled in to Burks as he was walking back to set up for the play. 

Second, Warren was on  the 7 yard line, not 9 yard line when play was stopped. 

Third, Warren had Arkadelphia's defense scrambling just as much as Warren was scrambling on offense to run that  last play before play got stopped.  Arkadelphia had a chance to discuss their defensive alignment just as much as Warren was going to get to discuss their play call.  No advantage to either  team.

Fourth, Burks  was not going to ground the ball.  If he was, you would have seen him throw it straight down when he received the snap.  Warren had a play called.  Whether that was to throw it to the  WR on the left side or throw it  at the  running backs feet, I do not know but Burks  would have had time to do either one.
In your opinion, should Warren have been allowed to attempt the field goal from the 7 yard line after the fan was removed?

Offline STUNNA

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2017, 01:59:02 pm »
In your opinion, should Warren have been allowed to attempt the field goal from the 7 yard line after the fan was removed?
In my opinion no they shouldn’t have. But they also shouldn’t have been given a penalty for the action of a kid that left the stands because of a $5 bet.

Offline Almatrackster

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2017, 08:05:24 pm »
But you can't reconcile those two opinions practically.

It's not fair for Warren to be penalized, and it is also not fair to run the clock while the fan is on the field making a fool. So clock stopped at 3 seconds. But...if it's not fair to keep the clock running, clock has to stop at 3 seconds, giving Warren the opportunity to kick a field goal.

But of course that's not fair since Warren would have never had the opportunity to kick a field goal without the fan stepping onto the field. So you say Warren shouldn't be allowed to kick a field goal? How do you do that? Do you tell Warren "Hey we are going to give you the ball at the 7 with 3 seconds left and run the clock, but you have to run an offensive play, no field goal." That isn't right, though, refs can't tell coaches what plays to run.

The penalty seemed like a way for the refs to find middle ground. Perhaps it wasn't, but I thought they tried. I think perhaps the thinking was: "We are going to move them back so they can't try a field goal, but also give them back the time the fan came on the field, which is 12 seconds."

Not sure if it was right. I think the MOST FAIR thing would be to recreate the situation. Have everyone line up exactly like they were and put the ball and run the clock and say "ACTION". Of course, that would be a little silly.

Why didn't Warren run a play closer to the goal line and get out of bounds? Why go for it all? 12 seconds is enough for 1 play and a FG.


Offline DoYouKnowWhoIThinkIam

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2017, 10:58:18 am »
I have some questions:

Why the 9 seconds put back on the clock?  The fan ran onto the field with 4 seconds left on the clock.  Whether you agree with the penalty or not, where does the 9 seconds come from?   

Also, with 12 seconds left, Warren has he ball at the 24 yard line and it's 2 and 23.  Why not get 8 or 10 yards with a sideline pass.  Get out of bounds.  Then kick a field goal?   Why are you throwing it into the end zone?   

At the end of the day, the impartial observer has to look at the Warren coach and wonder about their game management. 

Offline South 45

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 11:02:52 am »
I'm just really glad it wasn't my call to make. Doubt the kid who did it had any idea how big a mess he was causing. Seems everyone should take a real good look at who all is allowed on the sidelines. I know locally IMO we have way to many underclassman hanging out on the field "helping" during games. 1-2 are actually serving a purpose while the others are usually playing pass by the second quarter. I fear it will cost us yards at some point.   

Offline LAfootball fan

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2017, 04:13:35 pm »
I'm just really glad it wasn't my call to make. Doubt the kid who did it had any idea how big a mess he was causing. Seems everyone should take a real good look at who all is allowed on the sidelines. I know locally IMO we have way to many underclassman hanging out on the field "helping" during games. 1-2 are actually serving a purpose while the others are usually playing pass by the second quarter. I fear it will cost us yards at some point.   

This kid came out of the stands.  He was not on the sideline.  That is why the Warren coaches were upset about the penalty.   It was not Warren's job to monitor fan security.  It happened during the last minute of the game.  Stand security should have been alert and ready to intervene knowing the game was about to end to make sure fans didn't come on to the field after the game ended.  The kid was all the way out to the middle of the field before security even realized what was going on. 

Offline Wonderdog

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2017, 12:53:17 am »
But you can't reconcile those two opinions practically.

It's not fair for Warren to be penalized, and it is also not fair to run the clock while the fan is on the field making a fool. So clock stopped at 3 seconds. But...if it's not fair to keep the clock running, clock has to stop at 3 seconds, giving Warren the opportunity to kick a field goal.

But of course that's not fair since Warren would have never had the opportunity to kick a field goal without the fan stepping onto the field. So you say Warren shouldn't be allowed to kick a field goal? How do you do that? Do you tell Warren "Hey we are going to give you the ball at the 7 with 3 seconds left and run the clock, but you have to run an offensive play, no field goal." That isn't right, though, refs can't tell coaches what plays to run.

The penalty seemed like a way for the refs to find middle ground. Perhaps it wasn't, but I thought they tried. I think perhaps the thinking was: "We are going to move them back so they can't try a field goal, but also give them back the time the fan came on the field, which is 12 seconds."

Not sure if it was right. I think the MOST FAIR thing would be to recreate the situation. Have everyone line up exactly like they were and put the ball and run the clock and say "ACTION". Of course, that would be a little silly.

Why didn't Warren run a play closer to the goal line and get out of bounds? Why go for it all? 12 seconds is enough for 1 play and a FG.
I agree with this. Impossible to fairly administer that situation.

Offline LAfootball fan

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2017, 10:37:45 am »
The fair way to administrate was to stop the clock and have both teams remain where they were on the field until the fan was removed.  Warren doesn't get to sub and Arkadelphia doesn't get to sub.  After the fan is removed, let both teams line up and start the clock on the snap of the ball with 3 seconds on the clock.   Warren had already snapped the ball before play was stopped so they were not getting any advantage running that final play and you are not arbitrarily adding time back to the clock.

The players that were on the field when play was stopped would settle the game on that final play at the exact spot where play was stopped.   All water under the bridge now though.  BOTH teams played their tails off and deserved to win the game.  Arkadelphia earned that title and no one from Warren thinks any different.  I believe most people not directly involved with either program would  have thought ending the game this way would  have been the most fair way to handle the situation.

Offline sevenof400

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2017, 01:33:07 pm »
The fair way to administrate was to stop the clock and have both teams remain where they were on the field until the fan was removed.  Warren doesn't get to sub and Arkadelphia doesn't get to sub.  After the fan is removed, let both teams line up and start the clock on the snap of the ball with 3 seconds on the clock.   Warren had already snapped the ball before play was stopped so they were not getting any advantage running that final play and you are not arbitrarily adding time back to the clock.

The players that were on the field when play was stopped would settle the game on that final play at the exact spot where play was stopped.   All water under the bridge now though.  BOTH teams played their tails off and deserved to win the game.  Arkadelphia earned that title and no one from Warren thinks any different.  I believe most people not directly involved with either program would  have thought ending the game this way would  have been the most fair way to handle the situation.

This begs the question are there Provisions in the rules allowing this ?

Offline Oldman

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2017, 11:34:06 am »
The fair way to administrate was to stop the clock and have both teams remain where they were on the field until the fan was removed.  Warren doesn't get to sub and Arkadelphia doesn't get to sub.  After the fan is removed, let both teams line up and start the clock on the snap of the ball with 3 seconds on the clock.   Warren had already snapped the ball before play was stopped so they were not getting any advantage running that final play and you are not arbitrarily adding time back to the clock.

The players that were on the field when play was stopped would settle the game on that final play at the exact spot where play was stopped.   All water under the bridge now though.  BOTH teams played their tails off and deserved to win the game.  Arkadelphia earned that title and no one from Warren thinks any different.  I believe most people not directly involved with either program would  have thought ending the game this way would  have been the most fair way to handle the situation.
This is what I thought all along.

Offline Nomad1324

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Re: Ok I watched the 4A game on TV
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2017, 08:26:18 pm »
The fair way to administrate was to stop the clock and have both teams remain where they were on the field until the fan was removed.  Warren doesn't get to sub and Arkadelphia doesn't get to sub.  After the fan is removed, let both teams line up and start the clock on the snap of the ball with 3 seconds on the clock.   Warren had already snapped the ball before play was stopped so they were not getting any advantage running that final play and you are not arbitrarily adding time back to the clock.

The players that were on the field when play was stopped would settle the game on that final play at the exact spot where play was stopped.   All water under the bridge now though.  BOTH teams played their tails off and deserved to win the game.  Arkadelphia earned that title and no one from Warren thinks any different.  I believe most people not directly involved with either program would  have thought ending the game this way would  have been the most fair way to handle the situation.

If the situation was that Warren could NOT stop the clock, as it seems to have been, then the clock should start on the ready for play, just as if they had gotten a first down. Otherwise, I could see how you said it working.

 

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