Issues and Questions for the Referee

[Insider]

Comment from Sevenof400: This thread has been created as a repository for those questions and situations dealing with the laws of the game.  Posts in other topics will be moved here as needed to keep threads on topic.

VG Siloam Springs 1 Bentonville 1 SS wins 7-6 on PKs
VB Siloam Springs 2 Bentonville 6

Heck of an effort by the VG from SS. Held strong defensively, scored a goal on the break, but conceded a penalty kick with 5 minutes left. Won on the shootout when the 7th Bville player kicked theirs right at the keeper and then the SS player made no mistake. Had a really unfortunate situation where the 4th BVille player took her kick before the whistle, meaning it didnt count, and the SS keeper saved it. She made the actual kick that counted. But, it all worked out in the end. SS Keeper was in great form.

SS VB were down 3-0, fought back to 3-2 (PK + well worked other goal), but then the flood gates opened.

On a personal note, I have absolutely never been as disrespected as a soccer referee, or honestly as a human being, as I was tonight by a couple of coaches. I'm going to write up a long effort post tomorrow about referee abuse, because that behavior was absolutely unacceptable. There is a reason the referee pool is stretched so thin and I can almost promise you that referee abuse, verbal or physical, is the biggest reason.

[Insider]

VG Siloam Springs 1 Bentonville 1 SS wins 7-6 on PKs
VB Siloam Springs 2 Bentonville 6

Heck of an effort by the VG from SS. Held strong defensively, scored a goal on the break, but conceded a penalty kick with 5 minutes left. Won on the shootout when the 7th Bville player kicked theirs right at the keeper and then the SS player made no mistake. Had a really unfortunate situation where the 4th BVille player took her kick before the whistle, meaning it didnt count, and the SS keeper saved it. She made the actual kick that counted. But, it all worked out in the end. SS Keeper was in great form.

SS VB were down 3-0, fought back to 3-2 (PK + well worked other goal), but then the flood gates opened.

On a personal note, I have absolutely never been as disrespected as a soccer referee, or honestly as a human being, as I was tonight by a couple of coaches. I'm going to write up a long effort post tomorrow about referee abuse, because that behavior was absolutely unacceptable. There is a reason the referee pool is stretched so thin and I can almost promise you that referee abuse, verbal or physical, is the biggest reason.

[Arbitro]

VG Siloam Springs 1 Bentonville 1 SS wins 7-6 on PKs
VB Siloam Springs 2 Bentonville 6

Heck of an effort by the VG from SS. Held strong defensively, scored a goal on the break, but conceded a penalty kick with 5 minutes left. Won on the shootout when the 7th Bville player kicked theirs right at the keeper and then the SS player made no mistake. Had a really unfortunate situation where the 4th BVille player took her kick before the whistle, meaning it didnt count, and the SS keeper saved it. She made the actual kick that counted. But, it all worked out in the end. SS Keeper was in great form.

SS VB were down 3-0, fought back to 3-2 (PK + well worked other goal), but then the flood gates opened.

On a personal note, I have absolutely never been as disrespected as a soccer referee, or honestly as a human being, as I was tonight by a couple of coaches. I'm going to write up a long effort post tomorrow about referee abuse, because that behavior was absolutely unacceptable. There is a reason the referee pool is stretched so thin and I can almost promise you that referee abuse, verbal or physical, is the biggest reason.

Learn the rules pup.  Penalty (articles 2 and 3) I have a copy if you need it.   NFHS rule book
When there is an infringement by the attacking team and the ball does not go into the goal, there is no rekick.  Bentonville infringed by not waiting for the whistle.  They do not get a "do over" because they messed up.  Meaning the pk should not have been retaken as you allowed.  I know officiating is not a gratifying means, but you need to know the exact rules.  Players on the pitch should decide the games and not the officials.

Nice insult.  Too bad you are incorrect

The PK attempt begins when the referee blows the whistle.  Taking the kick before the whistle is not an infringement as described in articles 2 and 3 because play has not been restarted by the referee.  The kick is retaken, no matter the result of the improper attempt.  Just like any other restart that requires a signal from the referee.

[chaoslord]

In addition to what Arbitro said, the players on the field did decide the game. Worked hard, played fantastic defensively and on the break, and ultimately won the game. SS Girls should be very proud, especially the goalkeeper. Boys should be pretty happy overall. Fought back to get in the game 3-2 before letting it slip away at the end. They gave a good account of themselves.

have a great photo of you raising your flag for offsides in the boys game and then letting it disappear.  Allowing their 3rd goal.  If I knew how to post it here I would.  I'm sure the "disrespect" you received was well deserved

Flag should have never gone up on that one, I will say that. Bville player was in offside postition but did not end up involved with play, plus SS player made a controlled play on the ball to clear it which would have reset the offside anyway. Center saw flag up, saw that ball never made it to player in offside position and that SS played the ball deliberately, so there was no offside infraction and he correctly allowed game to continue since there was no reason to stop play.

Also, IMO, disrespect is never "well deserved", whether in soccer or life in general.

If you want to discuss things further, shoot me a PM. Happy to talk about game, but don't need to keep derailing scores thread.

[sevenof400]

have a great photo of you raising your flag for offsides in the boys game and then letting it disappear.  Allowing their 3rd goal.  If I knew how to post it here I would.  I'm sure the "disrespect" you received was well deserved

No.
Do not.

And as a public service reminder to others, this sort of activity has no place here. 

I get that we all from time to time will take exception to the calls (or non calls) from the referee - I certainly have myself.  But do not cross the line of posting pictures, naming or identifying referees in any way.   

[Basketball13]

As a a human that is a referee, I can say that no one is perfect. We all mess up. With that being said, teams have 80 minutes to put the ball into the back of the net. One mistake or even a couple does not decide the outcome of the game, the players do. We take more than just a physical rundown when we call the majority of these games; we take an emotional toll too. To not take it to heart part of the time is a lie, we feel very disrespected when yelled at. I can say that I have missed calls but I do not feel terrible about it. It's over. It is a new day. I don't want to sound crude, but to the people who think we screw up all the time and they don't, then I can only wish that you will get your certification for USSF or NFHS in any sport. You will come to realize there is far more than you know about the sports. Good luck to the rest of the teams this year and God Bless.

[beeroe]

With that being said, teams have 80 minutes to put the ball into the back of the net. One mistake or even a couple does not decide the outcome of the game, the players do.

I love this statement!! I get so sick of hearing people whine about reffing. It true that sometimes a bad call or missed call can have a devastating impact on the momentum of the game. However this is why high school sports are so good. Its a fantastic opportunity for young people to learn and grow through adversity.   

However.... In the opinion of the referees on here, what are the best ways for coaches and captains to handle a situation where a game is getting out of hand? It seems that some referees get downright angry if there is any disagreement. Other referees seem quite ok with it and will even come over to the bench to explain to the coaches why they made the call.

[razorback]

I have a question and I hope someone knows the answer...is it mandatory to have three refs for a conference game or can you play with two?

[MDXPHD]

I believe you can play any game with 2 referees in Arkansas.

[sevenof400]

I have a question and I hope someone knows the answer...is it mandatory to have three refs for a conference game or can you play with two?

Keeping in mind that high school soccer is played under rules that originate from the NFHS and club soccer plays under rules that originate from FIFA, there will always be differences in the rules (or Laws) of the Game.

Having said that, high school rules (as per NFHS) can use a dual system of referees (i.e. a two man crew).  Club cannot use two referees in a dual system as high school can. 

(As an aside, you will on occasion see a club match with two referees but the proper procedure for using two referees on a club match is for one referee to be the center referee and the other referee to be a linesman -assistant referee- with the same areas of responsibility as if there were two assistant referees.)

I am not aware of any conferences that have mandated a two referee (dual) system as their desired option, but conferences do have some flexibility in determining how their representative(s) to the playoffs are identified.  A conference could agree to use only the dual system of refereeing if the conference members so desired. 

However, the playoffs (as run by AHSAA) is still using the three referee system. 

[chaoslord]

New church callings here in the YSA ward and school projects mean I haven't had time to do my long effort post about referee abuse. Instead, watch this video as a primer! (Deals with verbal abuse of referees and kids)

However.... In the opinion of the referees on here, what are the best ways for coaches and captains to handle a situation where a game is getting out of hand? It seems that some referees get downright angry if there is any disagreement. Other referees seem quite ok with it and will even come over to the bench to explain to the coaches why they made the call.

For me, the issue is tone, tone, and tone. If a player/coach comes to me in a respectful tone, I'm more than happy to talk to them. He could say "I don't think that's a foul" or something similar and if it's not in a clearly "you're a moron" tone, I'll let them know how I saw it, or most likely I'll tell the captain to tell him since it's easier to reach the captain most times. I talk to the players a good amount anyway (nice shot, thought that was dipping in, dont foul, etc), so if a player has a question about my call I'm fine with that. It might take a few passes by, but I'll answer any questions. I had a game where I was talking to one of the captains about my decision to not caution a player on a foul that was borderline. We discussed it over probably four or five passes as the ball went out of play at various times.

However, if they start "Are you blind?! How was that a foul?" I've stopped listening after the insult and I just tune them out, might give them a body motion to simulate what I saw or something like that but I don't have to and won't put up with being insulted, sorry. Same with a player getting up and yelling about that never being a foul. If they get up and come over to me and are like "Hey, I got the ball, I didn't foul him" in a calm manner, then I will explain to him how I saw the play and have a dialogue with him.

If you really have a problem with a referee though, talk to the assignor. That is the proper chain of command there. The assignors know their referee's strengths and weaknesses and can talk to them about it and ask the referee about the game and find out things like that. But I would say that is something to be reserved for "The referee is clearly out of his depth" rather than "referee missed a call".

I have a question and I hope someone knows the answer...is it mandatory to have three refs for a conference game or can you play with two?

As has been said, games can go ahead with only two outside of the playoffs. However, I wont get too upset at a Boys Varsity coach insisting we get a third there if possible. Had that situation last year where a kickoff got delayed 30 minutes so we could have a third show up after they got ahold of the assignor and he told them he'd send someone.

[razorback]

Thanks for the answers.  First time this has been an issue for us.  Normally we have always had three refs but I think things are picking up all over the state in terms of games.  Let me just say this, we appreciate the refs and I know its a thankless job.  If you do it right nobody notices but if you do it wrong, you never hear the end of it. A big thank you to all of you all!

[fourfourtwo]

I agree with chaoslord in some areas but have my own issues with referees in Arkansas.  I believe that in all situations, a certain amount of respect is required to address an official.  I also understand the frustration players/coaches/and fans feel at referees.  First let me say I have grown up watching and playing soccer.  I love the sport and am a constant learning of it.  I grew up in another state where in my city soccer is much more popular than in Arkansas.  In my opinion, soccer is about 15 years behind most of the country in regards to the development of players, the sport in universities and colleges, and at the club level.
The one thing i have noticed about officials in the western half of the state, and even in the central part, is the inability to recognize a foul or interpret a rule during the speed of play.  For exemple the impeding foul. or i still call obstruction, is rarely called or even recognized.  I see this occur time and time again on the field and have only every seen it called maybe twice.  One of the most under called fouls in the game is dangeous challenges from behind or cleats up slide tackles.  Both of these fouls are very important as they involve player saftey.  I can take an official not calling certian obvious fouls or perhaps calling ticky tacky fouls but i do not have much patience for officials who do not hold the players saftey in the highest regards. 
I cannot tell you how many times i have seen players taken down from behind by a slide tackle or shoulder charged while in a bent position and officials signal play on. 
There are two big problems by many high school officials: 1) There is a lack of experience/knowledge of rules, and 2) some people do not have the personality or mental apptitude to be an official. 
To be high school referee it requires a certification with the AOA.  This entails two things: Passing a test and paying the fee.  That is all.   Most players begin as AR's then progress to center JV games then onto varsity games.  While some might think this is proper experience, it is by no means adequate.  I strongly believe officials need to be exposed to what a foul is, and what it isn't.  I also believe that not everyone can be an official.  Some do not have the personality (become too emotional or offended), some do not have the mental aptitude (they just can't recognize a foul at speed).  there needs to be better training of officials or opportunities to improve.  The playing pitch by itself will not help officials improve without a mentor/teacher to explain errors.  Officials need bipartisan feedback so that they can improve. 

[Lionheart88]

With that being said, teams have 80 minutes to put the ball into the back of the net. One mistake or even a couple does not decide the outcome of the game, the players do.

I love this statement!! I get so sick of hearing people whine about reffing. It true that sometimes a bad call or missed call can have a devastating impact on the momentum of the game. However this is why high school sports are so good. Its a fantastic opportunity for young people to learn and grow through adversity.   

However.... In the opinion of the referees on here, what are the best ways for coaches and captains to handle a situation where a game is getting out of hand? It seems that some referees get downright angry if there is any disagreement. Other referees seem quite ok with it and will even come over to the bench to explain to the coaches why they made the call.

Respect the shirt (and/or badge) even if you don't respect the man or woman in it.  When I'm coaching at any level, I always tell my kids that they are to address the referee as sir/ma'am, full stop.  Even if s/he is clearly biased, you address them as follows "Sir, I don't understand the call, could you please explain?"  "Ma'am, what was the call?"  and so on and so forth.  If the ref tells you to do something, you do it, period.

Something else that I think may get lost in the shuffle of FIFA vs NFHS rules is the office of captain.  I don't recall the FIFA rule offhand, but in NFHS the rules specifically say (rule 3, section 1, article 1) that the captain:
a. is the team's representative
b. may address an official on matters of interpretation
c. may address an official to obtain essential information
These are very important.  When I'm centering, I tell the captains at the coin toss that they should be the only players who address me.  I, as the referee, should not hear from any other players unless I ask them a question, and any other player who runs up to me questioning a call is going to catch a yellow for dissent.  Look it up.  "objecting by word of mouth or action to any decision given by an official" is a yellow, you just almost never see it given unless there's something else like profanity or a player persistently badgering the ref (admission: I don't center much, and have never actually had to give a dissent yellow, but it seems to me that if youtell the captains up front what you expect and put the onus on them to keep their teammates from making fools of themselves, it works better).  That's why choosing captains is probably more important in soccer than in any other sport.  They aren't just there for the coin toss like in most sports.  If your captain is just last year's top scorer, or the principal's son, or rotated between all the seniors, you're wasting it and hurting your team, because a captain who can't hold an educated, well-informed conversation on the rules with a referee is just going to make a bad impression.  When your captain is the one running up saying "Hey sir, like, wasn't that offside?" when it clearly wasn't is going to do noting but annoy the referee, and even though the ref won't show conscious bias, it can only be bad for your team to annoy the ref. I see far too many high school captains, especially boys, who don't know the rules, can't keep their cool, and just generally only wear the armband because they're skilled players.  When I coach older kids in any league, I try to carefully select captains who've been playing for years, can keep a level head, and preferably do their own coaching and/or refereeing.  I can't tell you how much easier the refs would have it if all teams that can had captains who referee recreational leagues.  Yes, the rules differ, but a captain who has a firm grasp of the rules will help your team.  I've literally seen good captains do everything but clap their hands over a teammate's mouth and drag them away to keep the teammate from bothering the refs, then turn around and address the same ref cordially and intelligently.  No good ref will consciously show bias, but keeping your discourse with the ref cordial and intelligent will make the game much smoother, and might even win you the benefit of the doubt here or there.

[Sir Alex]

Not to open a can but when is it time to hang it up officiating.   My personal feelings on the subject does not involve judgement because an older official is far more experienced and educated than a younger one.  However, when you can't get up and down the field to stay up with the play and observe at a good position to allow your experience to be put to good use it may be time to hang it up and mentor the younger officials.  There will always be a place for older officials and they need to be involved with game in some way. 

I know Arbitro or Chaoslord will have a comment.  I am not hammering officials.  I think we all need to know when we are no longer helping the game.  Disclaimer:  I have officiated and have a father that officiated professional and college soccer.  It was sad to see him retire from officiating but he knew when it was time. 

[chaoslord]

Not to open a can but when is it time to hang it up officiating.   My personal feelings on the subject does not involve judgement because an older official is far more experienced and educated than a younger one.  However, when you can't get up and down the field to stay up with the play and observe at a good position to allow your experience to be put to good use it may be time to hang it up and mentor the younger officials.  There will always be a place for older officials and they need to be involved with game in some way. 

I know Arbitro or Chaoslord will have a comment.  I am not hammering officials.  I think we all need to know when we are no longer helping the game.  Disclaimer:  I have officiated and have a father that officiated professional and college soccer.  It was sad to see him retire from officiating but he knew when it was time.

Thanks for bumping this thread. It reminded me that I never made that effort post I said a few times I'd get around to. Shoot! Better make that a priority...

To answer your question (which is a very fair question and I don't think you are hammering people fwiw), I think it's when the referee can no longer be in position to make the call that they need to "hang it up" for that level. In some JV games, and probably in the case of some of the 2A schools playing in 4A, a referee could probably spend most of their time in the center circle (er....the circle of excellence ) and get most of the calls right. You can see a lot of bad tackles from 40 yards away pretty easily. As the skill level climbs, though, fouls become more subtle. Those are the ones that require 10-20 yards of distance instead, and that is where it starts to become an issue. There is absolutely still a place in the game for these officials. Instructing, Assessing, and Mentoring are definitely things that are needed. I bet you our AAA rep would love to have a veteran official attend every match and talk to the referees afterwards with constructive feedback, but there are way too few of us. There is a point (and sometimes in the life of an official, multiple points) when the place for an official is not in the center of the pitch for a highly competitive varsity conference grudge match. The same can be said about officials who are just lesser experienced too, so I don't want this to come across as "Old referees can't do it anymore!" I've seen a JVB game with a fairly young official go...uhh...not so well, while I've seen multiple older officials handle VB with ease, so it is definitely a combination of fitness + experience.

I'm a solutions oriented kind of guy though, so there are a couple of thoughts about how we help this problem. A fitness test might be useful as a quick and dirty answer, but honestly the best solution is some combination of the referee admitting "I can't do this game" and/or the assignor realizing that the referee will struggle with it and assigning them to lower level games instead. You put it perfectly. As officials, we need to know when we are no longer helping the game. Whether that is because we can't keep up with what play demands or because we are in over our heads, if we aren't at the level of the game then we are hurting the very sport we love. We need referees to be honest with themselves.

Another solution to solving the problem? Help recruit more referees! The guys who might not be in the best physical state anymore probably get called into action more often than they would if we had more people to help share the workload. We have an interesting mix of people here in Arkansas. At the top end of the spectrum we have a guy from another state who works MLS games who does games on occasion (he was a FIFA at one point; y'all in Harrison might be the only ones who get to see him) along with two USSF nationals registered here (we have 3 total but one of them doesn't do HS anymore; heck, I'm not even sure if any of them do HS, honestly). Then we have a lot of guys who have been doing it for a long time, some "middle timers", and then finally a good amount of new statesmen. The problem, however, comes when the new statesmen group loses so many people. I know this is a USSF example and not NFHS, but almost all of our NFHS folks are USSF so it is kinda similar. I was on a church mission from 2010-2012. When I got back, the long timers were all still around. However, practically all of the people in my age group that I had known prior to leaving had given up on refereeing.

I think it would be easier to help ease the guys who might no longer be able to handle the physical and mental demands of the highest level games down to lower games if we had more people able to do those bigger games. I honestly think it would be a good idea for coaches to have players study the actual written rules of the game to have players gain a little insight into things. (It would also mean I could stop hearing things like "But sir, he didn't ask for 10". If I had a nickel for every time someone refused to move back because the other guy hadn't asked yet...) Maybe encourage the players to go referee a handful of rec games in the fall. I know a lot of them play classic so you can't say "Go work a full season of games", but even running a couple of U13 lines would be a good experience imo and if they like it, hey, new blood! We need replacements if we aren't going to use some of the guys we have. I think most assignors would rather risk using the guy who might not be fast enough but has years of experience ahead of the quick youngster who probably can't handle the game on the tough ones. Having more young folk to give games to will help cast a wider net to find those who can handle tough games immediately while allowing those who need more time to prepare to have it.

----Here I go on a referee abuse tangent, so...if anyone doesn't want to read me ranting about referee abuse, skip from here down. I had this in the middle of my post, but I decided to just put this at the end so if you started thinking "oh boy, here goes chaoslord again  " that you could move on----

There are many reasons the refereeing group ebbs and flows. Sometimes it gets boring for the official. Sometimes school and/or careers and/or social/married life get in the way. And then for others, the referee abuse makes it not worth it. I know that I almost quit in my second year of refereeing because of how bad it was. Some coaches and fans have their idea that hurling insults is just part of the game and should be accepted and shrugged off, but that is absolutely ridiculous. That attitude that referees should just take whatever insults get thrown out is the primary reason that we can't keep people around. This isn't as big of a problem in HS because referees have to be 18 or older, but seeing adults yelling insults at 15 year old kids in USSF-land is ridiculous. If we could cut that out, we would have more referees willing to continue on and become HS referees. People are more likely to brush it off in HS because the referees are adults so they should "learn how to tune it out", but the onus needs to be on coaches to behave responsibly and not throw insults around. Telling the referee to just learn to tune it out is like victim blaming and only obscures the real problem. We shouldn't just excuse the behavior because "hey, it's sports". My girlfriend came up to me after a particularly heated set of games this year concerned about my safety in us leaving. I was 100% sure that nothing was going to happen, but all the same, the thought should never have even needed to enter her mind. It's not like her worry is without precedent, which is the sad part. A good number referees I know who have been doing this for a long time have had some sort of run in with physical referee abuse and, of course, there was the unfortunate case of Mr. Portillo (who I did not know) in Utah. I would venture a guess that if we cut out the verbal abuse, most of the physical abuse cases would go with it. As parents, fans, and players, if we would be willing to let our coaches know if they are being over the line I can almost promise that the quality of refereeing would go up in the long term. When referees deal with the coaches, nothing usually comes of it. The coach just continues thinking the referee had it in for him and that is the reason he got a yellow/red card, not because he was being over the line. Us referees trying to rein in the coaches just proves their point about how awful we are. (If I had another nickel for every time I've been accused of being on a power trip... oh yes, running around and being yelled at definitely is what makes me feel powerful!) It just gets excused because "yeah, that referee was a jerk and/or bad!" Yes, there will always be bad games by referees, or even good games apart from one huge mistake that ruins it. Maybe your team has been on the unfortunate end of a number of these. However, there are appropriate ways of dealing with those both in game and after, just like there are appropriate ways of handling players if they have a bad game or make a mistake. I know that when I have kids, if a coach ever yells at my kid, especially in a very public manner, and calls him worthless because he made a mistake, I will be finding a new team for my kid the next day, full stop.

There are, of course, a lot of coaches around who do things in the appropriate manner and I appreciate the example they set for their players. I'm not trying to say that coaches can never disagree with referees. My point is the manner in which it is done is the key. I think there is a difference between "That was a foul" and "Are you blind? How is that not a foul?" and/or You're terrible". These games have a lot of passion in them so I'm not expecting coaches necessarily to sit on their thumbs and do nothing if they disagree with how the referee is calling the game, and honestly it can be helpful at times to get a calibration check. For instance, if your bar is set too high because yesterday you were doing a really competitive 7A Varsity boys middle, and now today you are doing a JV Girls game...whoops. Yeah, that should be a foul at this level, thanks coach! It's all about how things are done.

[Arbitro]

Not to open a can but when is it time to hang it up officiating.   My personal feelings on the subject does not involve judgement because an older official is far more experienced and educated than a younger one.  However, when you can't get up and down the field to stay up with the play and observe at a good position to allow your experience to be put to good use it may be time to hang it up and mentor the younger officials.  There will always be a place for older officials and they need to be involved with game in some way. 

I know Arbitro or Chaoslord will have a comment.  I am not hammering officials.  I think we all need to know when we are no longer helping the game.  Disclaimer:  I have officiated and have a father that officiated professional and college soccer.  It was sad to see him retire from officiating but he knew when it was time.

I spent some time thinking about this and was going to write a long and detailed analysis, but I don't have the gift for words that Chaoslord has.   
I think it really comes down to (1) the number of referees available relative to the number of games that must be covered, and (2) the willingness of referees to honestly self-evaluate and realize when the full speed game has passed them by (literally). 

The referee assignors do their best to not only put competent referees on each game, but also referees with experience appropriate for the level of competition.  Whenever possible, a highly competitive 7A game is going to get more experienced (and fit) referees than a bottom of the table game in a lower classification.  Unfortunately the reality is that the pool of referees is not large enough that high standards of experience and fitness can be required for every referee at every game.  Certainly the assignors listen to feedback from the schools (and other referees) and try to limit the "damage" done by weak referees, but when the games are coming thick and fast compromises have to be made.  Geography also plays a role.  In the central part of the state (and I assume in the northwest) the assignors have more flexibility in matching referees to the games.  There are more games, but also more referees to move around.  In other parts of the state where travel times are an issue, sometimes there are very limited choices in referees.  Some schools have to import referees from neighboring states, and these referees are not always aware of Arkansas-specific rule modifications.  The pool of referees is going to need to grow as the sport grows, but for now that includes some referees that lack experience, and a few others that are essentially warm bodies.

As for knowing when to hang it up, it is largely up to the referee to make that evaluation and decision.  I'm sure that there have been a few referees that have either been asked not to re-register or have just not been assigned more games, but again some of the time the assignors are compelled to use the bodies they have.  There are very good referees that cannot physically keep up with the speed of the boys game that can do a fine job in the center for the girls.  I personally do not think that girls games are easier to referee (in some ways they are more difficult), but in general they are less physically demanding.  I have too much self-respect and too much respect for the game to referee from the "circle of excellence".  When it gets to the point where I can no longer run with (or slightly behind ) the players I will call it a day.  I intend to be honest with myself about this, and won't wait for someone to have to tell me.

So what is the solution?  If we (schools, coaches, players, parents, referees) made an effort to recruit more referees perhaps we could get enough people interested that we could afford to be more selective.  I know of a district in another state that requires any referees wanting to officiate high school soccer to pass tests of speed and endurance.  They have enough interested referees that they can afford to turn people away, which is a luxury we don't have (yet).  But recruiting is not enough.  We also need training, mentoring, and an environment that allows new referees to improve.  That is a challenge everywhere, but particularly in areas where there is little to no formal soccer outside of the high school season.  You can't get better if you don't work games.

[NWAguy]

An AR in the Springdale game friday 4/25 totally changed the game on a bogus call during PK's. The Bentonville player missed his PK which ended the game and gave Springdale the win but the AR called it back and said the keeper encroached thus awarding a second try which was made. Springdale went on to lose the game. Video clearly shows that from the time the whistle is blown the keeper has his feet on the line until after the ball is kicked. The kid missed the shot by a mile. Turns out the AR who made the call works in Bentonville with several of the current players parents and his son played for Bentonville in 2011. Don't want to lump all refs into this but this is the crap that has fans, players, coaches so frustrated with officials. These kids work too hard.

[soccer72450]

An AR in the Springdale game friday 4/25 totally changed the game on a bogus call during PK's. The Bentonville player missed his PK which ended the game and gave Springdale the win but the AR called it back and said the keeper encroached thus awarding a second try which was made. Springdale went on to loose the game. Video clearly shows that from the time the whistle is blown the keeper has his feet on the line until after the ball is kicked. The kid missed the shot by a mile. Turns out the AR who made the call works in Bentonville with several of the current players parents and his son played for Bentonville in 2011. Don't want to lump all refs into this but this is the crap that has fans, players, coaches so frustrated with officials. These kids work too hard.

I witness a dad Yelling at the Ref the entire game last week.  Does the Ref have the authority to warn someone in the stands to calm down and then have them ejected from the game?   If I would have been that Ref I would have walked up into the stands, handed the guy the Ref shirt and told him Call the game.      That is one side.   Then there are the Refs whom think that they are above it all.    They can not be approached by coach, captain or player.    There are Refs throughout the state that a teams do not want calling a game.  Either they play favorites or just do not understand the game.     When one team gains an advantage   because the Ref is biases then they need to be replaced.   

[sevenof400]

A referee cannot directly eject a fan but the referee can work through the school administrator to have the fan removed. 

[Lionheart88]

An AR in the Springdale game friday 4/25 totally changed the game on a bogus call during PK's. The Bentonville player missed his PK which ended the game and gave Springdale the win but the AR called it back and said the keeper encroached thus awarding a second try which was made. Springdale went on to loose the game. Video clearly shows that from the time the whistle is blown the keeper has his feet on the line until after the ball is kicked. The kid missed the shot by a mile. Turns out the AR who made the call works in Bentonville with several of the current players parents and his son played for Bentonville in 2011. Don't want to lump all refs into this but this is the crap that has fans, players, coaches so frustrated with officials. These kids work too hard.

I witness a dad Yelling at the Ref the entire game last week.  Does the Ref have the authority to warn someone in the stands to calm down and then have them ejected from the game?   If I would have been that Ref I would have walked up into the stands, handed the guy the Ref shirt and told him Call the game.      That is one side.   Then there are the Refs whom think that they are above it all.    They can not be approached by coach, captain or player.    There are Refs throughout the state that a teams do not want calling a game.  Either they play favorites or just do not understand the game.     When one team gains an advantage   because the Ref is biases then they need to be replaced.   

If it's bad enough, the ref can suspend the game, go to the home coach (or administrator, but odds are the refs don't usually know the Admins by sight) and require them to remove the fan before the game continues.  It's a pretty rare thing though, only once have I seen a fan ejected, and that was between games.

[dispossessed]

An AR in the Springdale game friday 4/25 totally changed the game on a bogus call during PK's. The Bentonville player missed his PK which ended the game and gave Springdale the win but the AR called it back and said the keeper encroached thus awarding a second try which was made. Springdale went on to lose the game. Video clearly shows that from the time the whistle is blown the keeper has his feet on the line until after the ball is kicked. The kid missed the shot by a mile. Turns out the AR who made the call works in Bentonville with several of the current players parents and his son played for Bentonville in 2011. Don't want to lump all refs into this but this is the crap that has fans, players, coaches so frustrated with officials. These kids work too hard.

Not to mention that the HR (correctly) awarded the match to Springdale after that failed kick, when the AR in question appears from his position some number of seconds later. So it's OK to "un-award" a victory? It was absolutely a joke. What are the options in a case like this? I know that there could be an appeal process. Wonder if anyone that would review an appeal would have the guts and the decency to make the CORRECT call in which the victory was awarded by the HR, and the "call" made by the AR can clearly be shown by video as bogus. If not, any referee standards, judgment and impartiality can only be viewed as a joke.

[chaoslord]

I left this thread alone a little while so the heat over the Springdale/Bentonville game could die down a little bit. I have some extra information! First, I'll say I know there were pictures circulating around Twitter. All of the pictures I saw, though, were with the ball having already been kicked, meaning they don't matter because the infraction, if any, has/had already occurred.

Some people on twitter suggested that the call was for the goalkeeper stepping forward off the line early. Honestly, that's what I would have assumed too, had I been there. However, the call was kind of the reverse of that. The goalkeeper, rather than being on the line, was behind the line. I'm guessing the keeper thought to do this because when he then steps forward to block the kick, his foot would still be on the line. The AR in question made this call multiple times, but Bentonville scored the goal on the other instances and so you just moved on to the next kick.

IMO, the call was probably correct, given everything I know about the situation. I don't think the AR would have made the same call multiple times had there not actually been anything there. However, I will say that I was not there and have not seen a still photo from the moment the ball is being kicked, although I think it would be hard to see very clearly, so we may honestly never know if it truly was correct or not. Here, however, is a place where preventative refereeing, rather than reactive refereeing, could have/would have saved the day. You see it the first time, you signal it to the referee, Bentonville scores anyway, so good goal, life moves on. The AR has two options at this point. 1) Do nothing, it's not your job to coach the players. 2) Tell the keeper after the kick "Hey keep, make sure you are on the line next time." Or really, option 3) Don't allow the next kick to proceed until the keeper is on the line. Option 1 is fine, honestly, but after the second or third time, you can know in the back of your mind "Boy, when he does this and they miss everyone is going to go crazy...". Not to say how the coaches will react should stop you from making a correct decision, but you can sure save yourself a lot of trouble with a few words (which is why I now remind players before every pk that it's on my whistle and will be doing so forever).

As far as an appeals process, there doesn't appear to be one. Having talked to the people I have, even had there been an appeal process I'm fairly certain the result would have stood. As well, I think the bias thing is out of place. Especially in NWA, there are only a handful of referees with no ties to any school. I've worked with graduates who sent off players of both their own school and the other school. I've worked with people who themselves played varsity for one of the coaches and had them disallow goals for offside. And while I haven't worked with everyone up here (I still want to work with the MLS guy, but that assignor won't give me games with him!), I can say that I would be shocked to find out if anyone was trying to alter the outcome of these games on purpose. That said, I know it looks really bad. It looked bad when I was a player when the dad of the twins on our varsity girls team was part of the crew (and centered some of the VG games, including carding his own daughters). It looks bad when parents or former players are on games. It puts that seed of doubt in your head which makes it easy to say "Yep, he wanted us to lose." But that's just the reality of the situation we have here in Arkansas. We don't have enough referees where we can avoid all conflicts like that. I don't envy the assignors at all, they have tough jobs.

[NWAguy]

I left this thread alone a little while so the heat over the Springdale/Bentonville game could die down a little bit. I have some extra information! First, I'll say I know there were pictures circulating around Twitter. All of the pictures I saw, though, were with the ball having already been kicked, meaning they don't matter because the infraction, if any, has/had already occurred.

Some people on twitter suggested that the call was for the goalkeeper stepping forward off the line early. Honestly, that's what I would have assumed too, had I been there. However, the call was kind of the reverse of that. The goalkeeper, rather than being on the line, was behind the line. I'm guessing the keeper thought to do this because when he then steps forward to block the kick, his foot would still be on the line. The AR in question made this call multiple times, but Bentonville scored the goal on the other instances and so you just moved on to the next kick.

IMO, the call was probably correct, given everything I know about the situation. I don't think the AR would have made the same call multiple times had there not actually been anything there. However, I will say that I was not there and have not seen a still photo from the moment the ball is being kicked, although I think it would be hard to see very clearly, so we may honestly never know if it truly was correct or not. Here, however, is a place where preventative refereeing, rather than reactive refereeing, could have/would have saved the day. You see it the first time, you signal it to the referee, Bentonville scores anyway, so good goal, life moves on. The AR has two options at this point. 1) Do nothing, it's not your job to coach the players. 2) Tell the keeper after the kick "Hey keep, make sure you are on the line next time." Or really, option 3) Don't allow the next kick to proceed until the keeper is on the line. Option 1 is fine, honestly, but after the second or third time, you can know in the back of your mind "Boy, when he does this and they miss everyone is going to go crazy...". Not to say how the coaches will react should stop you from making a correct decision, but you can sure save yourself a lot of trouble with a few words (which is why I now remind players before every pk that it's on my whistle and will be doing so forever).

As far as an appeals process, there doesn't appear to be one. Having talked to the people I have, even had there been an appeal process I'm fairly certain the result would have stood. As well, I think the bias thing is out of place. Especially in NWA, there are only a handful of referees with no ties to any school. I've worked with graduates who sent off players of both their own school and the other school. I've worked with people who themselves played varsity for one of the coaches and had them disallow goals for offside. And while I haven't worked with everyone up here (I still want to work with the MLS guy, but that assignor won't give me games with him!), I can say that I would be shocked to find out if anyone was trying to alter the outcome of these games on purpose. That said, I know it looks really bad. It looked bad when I was a player when the dad of the twins on our varsity girls team was part of the crew (and centered some of the VG games, including carding his own daughters). It looks bad when parents or former players are on games. It puts that seed of doubt in your head which makes it easy to say "Yep, he wanted us to lose." But that's just the reality of the situation we have here in Arkansas. We don't have enough referees where we can avoid all conflicts like that. I don't envy the assignors at all, they have tough jobs.

From the time the whistle blows till the time the ball is kicked the keepers feet are on the line. It is as clear as day. That is how the rule reads. I would be happy to post the video if I knew how.

[chaoslord]

From the time the whistle blows till the time the ball is kicked the keepers feet are on the line. It is as clear as day. That is how the rule reads. I would be happy to post the video if I knew how.

Fair enough then! I was just going off what I was told and the few pictures from after the fact. I still like my post, but I will say that half of the content in it could be very wrong if what you are saying is right! (The preventative refereeing and the bias part are still fine as is imo)

[coach cleats]

This probably needs another thread but I'll post here first.
What does everyone think about the practice of scheduling a "game" to allow red carded player to sit and avoid missing a conference game?

Just wondering???

[Lionheart88]

It's smart.  Makes perfect sense to intersperse some nonconference games into your conference schedule to absorb a suspension like that.

[coach cleats]

No I'm talking about scheduling after the fact.

[dispossessed]

It certainly circumvents the spirit of the rule, but it's available to any team that wants to quickly schedule an additional game. Until the AAA determines it's not OK, I guess it's OK.

[mijally]

Actually it's not available to any school that wants to do it. Some districts have athletic budget restrictions that won't allow the added expense of another game just to get a player eligible. Imagine trying to get that approved with an AD in the Pulaski County special school district. It's a loophole the AAA should close because it creates an unfair advantage for some teams.

[coach cleats]

Well it's my understanding teams can only play a certain number of games per season. It seems that some teams schedule one or two less than maximum games allowed in case they need to sit a carded player.
Seems like cheating to me. In big boy soccer if you are carded in a champion league you miss your next champion league game. You could play several say bpl games but you would miss the next conference game. Should be same in high school.

[mijally]

If you get a red card in your final conference game are you disqualified for the first round of state playoffs?

[coach cleats]

I guess so. Unless you could schedule a game before state tournament 

[The Coach]

Well it's my understanding teams can only play a certain number of games per season. It seems that some teams schedule one or two less than maximum games allowed in case they need to sit a carded player.
Seems like cheating to me. In big boy soccer if you are carded in a champion league you miss your next champion league game. You could play several say bpl games but you would miss the next conference game. Should be same in high school.

16 games and 2 tournaments is what the AAA allows teams to play

[mijally]

If I was a coach I'd finish every season with a non conference game just in case.

[Lionheart88]

Soccer isn't like gridiron football where schedules are set months or years in advance.  Sometimes teams don't get their conference schedules until a month or two before, and even those get adjusted on the fly at times.  Teams adding games mid-season happens for plenty of other reasons.  Besides, this isn't the UCL, or the BPL, or even MLS.  We don't even use FIFA rules.  As long as the rule is the same for everyone, that's all that can be asked.

[coach cleats]

So it is okay to schedule a non conference game on the fly to dismiss a red card so a player can play in a conference game or state cup 

[The Coach]

So it is okay to schedule a non conference game on the fly to dismiss a red card so a player can play in a conference game or state cup 

No it's not ok and if the AAA finds out that player will be made to sit the next conference game or state game if that's what comes next.

[coach cleats]

Thanks Coach !!!!!!

[Lionheart88]

So it is okay to schedule a non conference game on the fly to dismiss a red card so a player can play in a conference game or state cup 

No it's not ok and if the AAA finds out that player will be made to sit the next conference game or state game if that's what comes next.

Source?  The rules as I've seen them just say they miss the next game and do not address this situation at all.  Admittedly it's been months since I cracked the AAA Handbook, longer since I read it thoroughly.

[The Coach]

So it is okay to schedule a non conference game on the fly to dismiss a red card so a player can play in a conference game or state cup 

No it's not ok and if the AAA finds out that player will be made to sit the next conference game or state game if that's what comes next.

Source?  The rules as I've seen them just say they miss the next game and do not address this situation at all.  Admittedly it's been months since I cracked the AAA Handbook, longer since I read it thoroughly.

They will not allow it if they know about it. Especially if they know the team schedules a game solely for that purpose.

[coach cleats]

You are right coach. Checked the handbook and it says player has to sit next comparable game. And we all know there is a huge difference between conference and hastily scheduled non conference games.

[Lionheart88]

So it is okay to schedule a non conference game on the fly to dismiss a red card so a player can play in a conference game or state cup 

No it's not ok and if the AAA finds out that player will be made to sit the next conference game or state game if that's what comes next.

Source?  The rules as I've seen them just say they miss the next game and do not address this situation at all.  Admittedly it's been months since I cracked the AAA Handbook, longer since I read it thoroughly.

They will not allow it if they know about it. Especially if they know the team schedules a game solely for that purpose.

You can repeat that as many times as you like, I still want to see it in writing.  Besides, the AAA would have a devil of a time proving that that's what the game was scheduled for.

[The Coach]

So it is okay to schedule a non conference game on the fly to dismiss a red card so a player can play in a conference game or state cup 

No it's not ok and if the AAA finds out that player will be made to sit the next conference game or state game if that's what comes next.

Source?  The rules as I've seen them just say they miss the next game and do not address this situation at all.  Admittedly it's been months since I cracked the AAA Handbook, longer since I read it thoroughly.

They will not allow it if they know about it. Especially if they know the team schedules a game solely for that purpose.

You can repeat that as many times as you like, I still want to see it in writing.  Besides, the AAA would have a devil of a time proving that that's what the game was scheduled for.

It's the AAA they can do what they want. Don't think I'm right call and ask. I'm willing to bet I know a little more about how things work with the AAA then you prolly do. Wouldn't be that hard to prove when all the sudden you schedule a game that hasn't been on your schedule all season. Especially here at the end of the regular season. Especially if your next opponent finds out and calls it in.

[Lionheart88]

I'm sure you know plenty more than I do.  Gotta love internet lawyers that spout off the rules but can't be bothered to point out a citation.  Teams add games mid season all the time.  There's any number of reasons that might be for.  Even the AAA has to have some reason for what they do, they aren't absolute monarchs who rule by fiat.

[The Coach]

I'm sure you know plenty more than I do.  Gotta love internet lawyers that spout off the rules but can't be bothered to point out a citation.  Teams add games mid season all the time.  There's any number of reasons that might be for.  Even the AAA has to have some reason for what they do, they aren't absolute monarchs who rule by fiat.

Not spouting off but I hope I know the rules better considering I have to abide by them. The AAA is the absolute rule of high school athletics in this state and can pretty much do what they want and the rest of us are at their mercy. I guarantee you if they know it won't be allowed. We are a little further then mid season don't ya think? Adding a game this late might look a little suspicious especially if your next opponent knows you had someone sent off. I don't have to see it on paper or in a rule book when I have experienced it first hand.

[Lionheart88]

The rules say (page 115):

F. Any school representative, athlete, or participant ejected from an event for unsportsmanlike conduct shall automatically be suspended from attending the next comparable event.

Nothing more.  The only possible argument is that a nonconference match doesn't meet the definition of "comparable", but my understanding is that any varsity event is considered comparable.  Any time I've ever seen a player suspension in any AR HS sport there's been no distinction drawn between conference and nonconference.  Varsity is varsity.  I know of at least one player who got a red in a conference game, sat out the nonconference game afterwards, and was back for the next conference game.  I don't know if the game missed was a late addition or not, but I still don't see where that makes any statutory difference to the "comparableness" of the match.

[The Coach]

The rules say:

F. Any school representative, athlete, or participant ejected from an event for unsportsmanlike conduct shall automatically be suspended from attending the next comparable event.

Nothing more.  The only possible argument is that a nonconference match doesn't meet the definition of "comparable", but my understanding is that any varsity event is considered comparable.  Any time I've ever seen a player suspension in any AR HS sport there's been no distinction drawn between conference and nonconference.  Varsity is varsity.  I know of at least one player who got a red in a conference game, sat out the nonconference game afterwards, and was back for the next conference game.  I don't know if the game missed was a late addition or not, but I still don't see where that makes any statutory difference to the "comparableness" of the match.

Like I said the AAA can do what they want. If they feel that's the reason they won't allow it. Non-conf and conf are not comparable if you ask me. Conf is far far more important.

[Arbitro]

In past years I have heard of teams scheduling a 15 game season to allow for the possibility of adding a game at the end so a player could serve a red card suspension before playoffs begin.  And I have heard of teams looking to schedule a last minute game for this purpose, although I have never been involved in any such game.  I have not heard of AAA objecting to this tactic, but I have no inside knowledge.  It seems like schools would not risk potential penalties if it were forbidden.  Does AAA consider this a significant issue?  All red cards are reported to AAA, so the state could track this if they thought it necessary.  Are all schedule changes reported as well?

FWIW, this is a AAA issue that the referee would have no control over or ability to prevent.  I suppose AAA could ask the referee for rosters from an extra game if they wanted evidence of wrong doing, but is it really against the rules?

[Arbitro]

I don't know if Lionheart88 and I are thinking of the same situation, but I do remember a school scheduling a last-minute non-conference game in the middle of conference play to allow a player to serve their suspension without missing a conference game.  Two or three years ago.  Either it wasn't a problem or they didn't get caught.