High School Soccer-do we need it?

[Centralsoccer]

Offside:  Who is hating on club soccer?  I personally enjoy club soccer and think we should continue it and high school.  Why is it so important to some people that club soccer be recognized as the best thing ever (and not just recognized as the best, but as being so great that high school is a waste of time)?   Can't it just be enough to say that we enjoy it and not go overboard.  It almost sounds like a business with that attitude.

Sigh... builtolast,  if you are referring to my comments about high school and club soccer then it doesn't seem like you are paying attention to what I am saying.
I apologize if I am off base here and I know I'm way too wordy.  To clarify, here are my basic points.

#1 - I love high school soccer.  Both my kids love playing high school soccer.
#2 - Club soccer is not the only ideal system for player development.
#3 - Club soccer has dramatically increased the soccer skill/tactics of my kids.
#4 - If you enjoy high school and would rather not play club then that's fantastic.
#5 - If you aspire to play competitive soccer after high school (college/pro) I highly recommend getting into a club environment at an early age or as soon as possible.
#6 - Where US soccer academy teams exist players will now have to choose between club and high school.  There may come a time when Arkansas players will have have to choose OR have an option to choose club instead of high school.  Or maybe play both?  This will not be the end of high school soccer just a good choice for players and families to consider.
#7 - Yes, if you truly read all the posts you will find examples of some club hating from what appear to be grownups.  I'm not entirely sure why? I don't believe club soccer will threaten high school soccer. 
#8 - For those of us with kids who are passionate about going as far as they can with the game they LOVE then yes sometimes soccer development can take on the structure of a business but my kids play a ton of pick-up soccer and high school soccer just for fun!

Great synopsis of the high points of this thread offside. I believe over the next years more and more kids will treat soccer like we all treated football as kids. Pick up games in the yards and parks and playing as much as we could.
My son and his buddies play every week and usually multiple times a week. On the rare occasion that they have a few days without practice or a game they meet at Henderson, Burns, Murray, Alltell (oops Verizon)...anywhere that they can find a spot and gather a group to play and/or workout. One of the first things he threw into his travel bag for the beach and spring break was a soccer ball. They play Futsal, with multiple different age groups on club teams, guest play with other clubs, high school, camps...wherever they can find a game. That is becoming more and more prevalent and that is what will grow soccer in our country.
High school soccer is pure and simple FUN. To watch and for them to play. Lots of guys who are teammates in club soccer oppose each other on their different high school teams and have a blast going at each other in high school ball. For others it may be their only opportunity in or near their community to play organized games.
But more touches against better competition with typically more qualified coaching DOES improve individual play and ability no matter where that comes from (high school, club etc) and I don't think anyone would really argue the validity of that statement. That isn't a slight against high school soccer or an endorsement of club soccer its just a fact of the state of the game.
The more play the better!! I'm all for more opportunities of any kind for our kids to play.

[soccerfiend]

If it's truly a school financial concern then soccer may just be a high school sport that survives easily. Uniforms and a bag of balls and you're good to go. I guess you have to open the field/stadium to play but the two or three hundred bucks in admission fees covers part of that, and some money for travel to 3 or 4 games. Throw in a 12-15 hundred dollar stipend that the school throws at the sponsor/coach and that's it. No equipment, no multiple coaches salaries etc etc. I wouldn't think that high school football, basketball, etc are significant revenue generators and may in fact operate at a deficit with their coaching salaries, facilities, equipment, travel etc.
Also not certain that the war is over! You're right, the initial battle was "won" with clubs scheduling around high school. As time passes other options will evolve and success or failure of those will depend solely on numbers...participation. If enough players opt for club ball over high school it could glean the better players from some high school teams but other kids will fill those spots. It may affect quality of play but I don't believe it will end play....And of course we could hope and pray that AAA at some point actually gives a ---- and works with State soccer Assoc folks to find a mutually workable plan as they have in many places (most?) around the country. No?! Stranger things have happened. The State Assoc. is looking at moving State Championships, Pres Cup etc dates. Who would've thought that was possible?!
 

The title was for discussion only and to present  a perspective on why we would continue to have high school soccer.  And it has obviously worked.  Don't hate the title, you referee.  You can't red card anyone of this site.  Lol.....  Well may be you can red card the rush guys. 

Someone needs to take this thread and delete it before more damage is done to the sport, just my opinion.

There has been some good discussion here, mixed in with the crap.  My main complaint is the ridiculous title.  We don't NEED any high school sport.  For that matter we probably don't need any sport at any level.  We just like them.

How about editing the title to "High School Soccer - benefits and limitations"?

I participate in a referee discussion board where the moderators can yellow or red card people for repeatedly posting inflammatory comments.  Hmmm, that might be useful here on occasion...

Some of the people here probably aren't aware that discussions like this went on more than a decade ago when high school soccer was starting in Arkansas.  There were more than a few people involved in Club soccer that were convinced that high school soccer would never grow in Arkansas because players would go with Club over high school when forced to make a choice.  Turns out they were wrong.  Most of the players wanted to play for their school teams and the Club teams had to adapt to the high school schedule.  That battle has already been fought, and high school won.

I think it is fair to say that the quality of coaching for the competitive teams from the large clubs is significantly better than almost all high school programs.  There are a few high school-only coaches that buck that trend, but very few.  High school soccer has nothing to fear from Club or Academy programs though.  A few players may leave - maybe enough to affect several school programs with a high concentration of current Club players - but the majority of school programs will continue on just fine. 

In my opinion, the only significant threat to high school soccer is economic pressure.  Will there be a time in the not-so-distant future when schools will decide they can no longer afford athletic programs that don't pay for themselves?  Will only revenue-generating programs survive?

[Sir Alex]

I truly doubt that high school soccer would ever be on the cutting block.  Soccer is probably the cheapest per player cost of all high school sports offered.  I remember the same coaches you are referring to 12 or so years ago.  Most of them are not even involved with those clubs any longer.  The sport will continue to grow but will probably follow a similar trend of the growth of our Hispanic communities.

If it's truly a school financial concern then soccer may just be a high school sport that survives easily. Uniforms and a bag of balls and you're good to go. I guess you have to open the field/stadium to play but the two or three hundred bucks in admission fees covers part of that, and some money for travel to 3 or 4 games. Throw in a 12-15 hundred dollar stipend that the school throws at the sponsor/coach and that's it. No equipment, no multiple coaches salaries etc etc. I wouldn't think that high school football, basketball, etc are significant revenue generators and may in fact operate at a deficit with their coaching salaries, facilities, equipment, travel etc.
Also not certain that the war is over! You're right, the initial battle was "won" with clubs scheduling around high school. As time passes other options will evolve and success or failure of those will depend solely on numbers...participation. If enough players opt for club ball over high school it could glean the better players from some high school teams but other kids will fill those spots. It may affect quality of play but I don't believe it will end play....And of course we could hope and pray that AAA at some point actually gives a ---- and works with State soccer Assoc folks to find a mutually workable plan as they have in many places (most?) around the country. No?! Stranger things have happened. The State Assoc. is looking at moving State Championships, Pres Cup etc dates. Who would've thought that was possible?!
 

The title was for discussion only and to present  a perspective on why we would continue to have high school soccer.  And it has obviously worked.  Don't hate the title, you referee.  You can't red card anyone of this site.  Lol.....  Well may be you can red card the rush guys. 

Someone needs to take this thread and delete it before more damage is done to the sport, just my opinion.

There has been some good discussion here, mixed in with the crap.  My main complaint is the ridiculous title.  We don't NEED any high school sport.  For that matter we probably don't need any sport at any level.  We just like them.

How about editing the title to "High School Soccer - benefits and limitations"?

I participate in a referee discussion board where the moderators can yellow or red card people for repeatedly posting inflammatory comments.  Hmmm, that might be useful here on occasion...

Some of the people here probably aren't aware that discussions like this went on more than a decade ago when high school soccer was starting in Arkansas.  There were more than a few people involved in Club soccer that were convinced that high school soccer would never grow in Arkansas because players would go with Club over high school when forced to make a choice.  Turns out they were wrong.  Most of the players wanted to play for their school teams and the Club teams had to adapt to the high school schedule.  That battle has already been fought, and high school won.

I think it is fair to say that the quality of coaching for the competitive teams from the large clubs is significantly better than almost all high school programs.  There are a few high school-only coaches that buck that trend, but very few.  High school soccer has nothing to fear from Club or Academy programs though.  A few players may leave - maybe enough to affect several school programs with a high concentration of current Club players - but the majority of school programs will continue on just fine. 

In my opinion, the only significant threat to high school soccer is economic pressure.  Will there be a time in the not-so-distant future when schools will decide they can no longer afford athletic programs that don't pay for themselves?  Will only revenue-generating programs survive?

The title was for discussion only and to present  a perspective on why we would continue to have high school soccer.  And it has obviously worked.  Don't hate the title, you referee.  You can't red card anyone of this site.  Lol.....  Well may be you can red card the rush guys. 

Someone needs to take this thread and delete it before more damage is done to the sport, just my opinion.

There has been some good discussion here, mixed in with the crap.  My main complaint is the ridiculous title.  We don't NEED any high school sport.  For that matter we probably don't need any sport at any level.  We just like them.

How about editing the title to "High School Soccer - benefits and limitations"?

I participate in a referee discussion board where the moderators can yellow or red card people for repeatedly posting inflammatory comments.  Hmmm, that might be useful here on occasion...

Some of the people here probably aren't aware that discussions like this went on more than a decade ago when high school soccer was starting in Arkansas.  There were more than a few people involved in Club soccer that were convinced that high school soccer would never grow in Arkansas because players would go with Club over high school when forced to make a choice.  Turns out they were wrong.  Most of the players wanted to play for their school teams and the Club teams had to adapt to the high school schedule.  That battle has already been fought, and high school won.

I think it is fair to say that the quality of coaching for the competitive teams from the large clubs is significantly better than almost all high school programs.  There are a few high school-only coaches that buck that trend, but very few.  High school soccer has nothing to fear from Club or Academy programs though.  A few players may leave - maybe enough to affect several school programs with a high concentration of current Club players - but the majority of school programs will continue on just fine. 

In my opinion, the only significant threat to high school soccer is economic pressure.  Will there be a time in the not-so-distant future when schools will decide they can no longer afford athletic programs that don't pay for themselves?  Will only revenue-generating programs survive?

[builtolast]

How about a high school football player who lives in metro Little Rock or NWA and his parents make sure they live in Bentonville, Fayetteville, Conway, or Cabot.  Or maybe the parent can afford to send their son to Pulaski Academy or Shiloh Christian.  The player will have remarkable facilities, a full staff of coaches, trainers, the best equipment.
And lets go further.  Because the parent has the money they sign their son up with a personal trainer or send them to D1 for specialized strength training and speed training.  And they pay to send their son to two or three football camps.  I could go on.

It's the same way with soccer.

When did sports become so important that we as parents are spending thousands of dollars just at the hope that our kids will become better at them?  When did we start moving entire families just so our kids can play at a school that has facilities. There are parents all over this country worrying about paying for their kids' healthcare, and here we are talking about player development like its this major issue.  I'm starting to see where the sense of entitlement is coming from with our kids these days.  What does that tell your child when you are willing to spend thousands on their sports or even move your family for them?  It tells your child that you are going to do everything in your power to make them successful at sports and that sports are important enough to move your family over.   It also tells the kid that if you spend enough money on something, you will be successful.  What a bad message.  What kind of pressure is that kid under knowing that his/her parents are spending a lot of money or even moved towns to make them perform better at a game?   A game!   How many professional athletes are we producing as a state?  So to make it worse, this stupidity isn't even paying off in the end for most of its participants.

Compare this to soccer.   Look at the quality of soccer in Arkansas, even at the club level.  Not good enough to be sitting here discussing "player development."

It sounds like many believe that the key to being a great athlete is having parents with money so that you get the development you need?  It has nothing to do with genetics, work ethic, passion for the game, etc?  Its all about who your coach was and what facilities you grew up in? If you think like that, your kids won't make it anyway so quit worrying about it and quit spending your money on it.   Let your kids fight for something on their own.  Its our job to teach them that.  School sports are designed to teach them that.   

[offside]

builtolast,

I used the example of Clint Dempsey whose parents did not have much money.
Clint played high school soccer but his parents decided to support Clint's desire to play college soccer so they sacrificed money and time (this is what loving parents do) to drive two hours (one-way) so that he could play for a quality club team.  This experience helped Clint be seen by college coaches and ODP coaches.  And along with Clint's hard work and determination the rest is history.

My kids go to public school.  We budget accordingly so they can play club soccer.
Thanks to my son's dedication, hard work, and club soccer experience he has earned a spot on a college roster.   There is no foolish plan to see him play professional soccer.
But we support and encourage his work ethic and lovingly support his goal to play the highest level of soccer possible.   What he is learning through his soccer pursuits cross over to other disciplines that will help him be a successful person and contribute to the community he lives in.

The example you plucked from my post was to show that in all sports (especially high school football) the level of facilities and diverse opportunities to train are remarkable today.  And some kids are lucky to have these opportunities.  Some (not all) parents may selflessly seek a way to make a living in an area where their children will have more opportunities to achieve their goals.

We are far from rich.  We try to reward our children's hard work and commitment by providing what we can to help them achieve their goals.

[builtolast]

My post wasn't meant to be an attack at you personally, but an attack at the idea that sports are becoming to important.  I apologize if you felt it was an attack at you.

Your reference to Clint Dempsey implies that he is what we are trying to achieve?  Are we looking to develop professionals?  We really aren't even developing decent college players.  Dempsey is one in a million.... that is like telling kids to look at what Kobe Bryant achieved by skipping college.  Should we be telling kids to skip college?  Of course not.   And how do we know that Dempsey would not have made it anyway?   And if that is what it takes to make it, then isn't there something wrong with our system in soccer?  What can we do to fix it?

I get the impression that "his parents did not have much money" means something entirely different to you than it does to me.  If Dempsey's parents didn't have much money they would not have been able to do those thing for him at all.....as in, financially couldn't.  They obviously were better off financially than the people I am referencing.    I haven't been clear enough about this but i'm trying to speak on behalf of the people that can't afford to do the things that you are crediting Dempsey s parents for doing.  Not people who "don't have much money".  There are more of them than you would think that can't afford to travel for club or ODP.  Are they not "loving parents" because they can't do those things?

Out of curiosity, why is it that when discussing what has put your son on a college roster  you put in bold, club soccer experience, but made no mention of his high school team, high school coach, younger age group coaches or teams, etc..?   

[offside]

My son was recruited by college soccer coaches through club soccer.
I have never seen a college soccer coach at his high school games. 
I emphasized his club soccer experience because if he did not play club soccer he would not have been exposed to college soccer coaches.  It is what it is. 
Your comments suggest you don't have a lot of experience with college soccer recruitment.  And that's okay.

[offside]

From a story on Clint Dempsey: 

"Dempsey grew up near the Mexican border in a trailer park in Texas. His story is a true rags to riches one...

His older brother Ryan was offered a tryout for the Dallas Texans, one of America's best youth soccer clubs, but it was young Clint, who had come along to accompany his brother was noticed and recruited while passing time juggling a ball on the sidelines.

Dempsey became a standout on the team at an early age, but had to quit due to his family's poor financial condition and money constraints...

But several parents of his teammates with the Texans offered to assist the Dempseys with expenses and travel, allowing him to rejoin the club."

Seems like Clint Dempsey's family is exactly the kind of family you are trying to represent.

AND I promise if a player shows talent, passion, and a good work ethic the Rush or LRFC will provide scholarships or absorb the cost of the player.  Also, like Dempsey's parents discovered club soccer families help each other out.  We know it can be a financial burden.  Arkansas club soccer families help each other out to help our kids pursue their passion.

[LRfan]

My post wasn't meant to be an attack at you personally, but an attack at the idea that sports are becoming to important.  I apologize if you felt it was an attack at you.

Your reference to Clint Dempsey implies that he is what we are trying to achieve?  Are we looking to develop professionals?  We really aren't even developing decent college players.  Dempsey is one in a million.... that is like telling kids to look at what Kobe Bryant achieved by skipping college.  Should we be telling kids to skip college?  Of course not.   And how do we know that Dempsey would not have made it anyway?   And if that is what it takes to make it, then isn't there something wrong with our system in soccer?  What can we do to fix it?

I get the impression that "his parents did not have much money" means something entirely different to you than it does to me.  If Dempsey's parents didn't have much money they would not have been able to do those thing for him at all.....as in, financially couldn't.  They obviously were better off financially than the people I am referencing.    I haven't been clear enough about this but i'm trying to speak on behalf of the people that can't afford to do the things that you are crediting Dempsey s parents for doing.  Not people who "don't have much money".  There are more of them than you would think that can't afford to travel for club or ODP.  Are they not "loving parents" because they can't do those things?

Out of curiosity, why is it that when discussing what has put your son on a college roster  you put in bold, club soccer experience, but made no mention of his high school team, high school coach, younger age group coaches or teams, etc..?

From a story on Clint Dempsey: 

"Dempsey grew up near the Mexican border in a trailer park in Texas. His story is a true rags to riches one…

His older brother Ryan was offered a tryout for the Dallas Texans, one of America's best youth soccer clubs, but it was young Clint, who had come along to accompany his brother was noticed and recruited while passing time juggling a ball on the sidelines.

Dempsey became a standout on the team at an early age, but had to quit due to his family's poor financial condition and money constraints…

But several parents of his teammates with the Texans offered to assist the Dempseys with expenses and travel, allowing him to rejoin the club."

Seems like Clint Dempsey's family is exactly the kind of family you are trying to represent.

AND I promise if a player shows talent, passion, and a good work ethic the Rush or LRFC will provide scholarships or absorb the cost of the player.  Also, like Dempsey's parents discovered club soccer families help each other out.  We know it can be a financial burden.  Arkansas club soccer families help each other out to help our kids pursue their passion.

My son was recruited by college soccer coaches through club soccer.
I have never seen a college soccer coach at his high school games. 
I emphasized his club soccer experience because if he did not play club soccer he would not have been exposed to college soccer coaches.  It is what it is. 
Your comments suggest you don’t have a lot of experience with college soccer recruitment.  And that’s okay.

Studies have shown that the foot skills required to be a talented soccer player are acquired at a young age. Unlike football, where many talented players don't start playing the sport until junior high or even high school, if a kid isn't spending a lot of time with the soccer ball  through their childhood, they probably won't develop the foot skills to be great at the sport. Obviously, high school is too late. The early years is when club soccer really makes it impact on player development. Go to the fields at LRFC or Rush or any club for that matter and you will see lots of young children spending time with the ball, being challenged and being coached by people that know something about the sport. This continues for a decade or more on through their high school years. Could a kid do this on their own? Unlikely in this country. Odds are that their friends are playing backyard football, baseball or basketball rather than soccer. Odds are that their parents grew up playing other sports and can't teach them much.

Yes, club soccer is expensive, and like a lot of things in life, not everyone can afford it. Of course the clubs have scholarships so that families that can't afford coaching or club fees can have those reduced or waived. Howver, the most expensive thing about competetive club soccer is the travel cost. The clubs don't control that. Also, tournament fees may not be waived as those are extra fees paid by the parents. Uniform/equipment costs will also likely not be waived.

Is club soccer worth it? It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Odds are that you will pay much more in club fees/ travel expenses than you will get in scholarship money (if you get any). However, if that is your kid's passion and you have the money/time, it is the only real option to let them play their sport year around at a high level.

It is true that unlike football/basketball/baseball, college coaches aren't going to high school soccer games to watch kids in Arkansas. One reason is that they get much more bang for their buck by going to a club soccer showcase tournament where there may be dozens of games in a single weekend and the teams are more uniformly talented (more potential college prospects on every team). However, it still requires a lot of effort on the recruit's part- soccer resume, cover letter, emails to coaches expressing interest and letting them know what showcases they will be playing in. Also, going to college camps of schools you are interested in (extra expense on top of club fees).

However, high school soccer does allow exceptional players to earn individual awards/honors( All-state,All-star, All-conference, etc.) that are relatively uncommon in club ball (team accomplishments are emphasized). It is much easier for a great player to stand out in high school ball. These awards are expected on a soccer CV sent to college coaches.
Also, many college team websites list player's high school accomplishments as well as club experience. This implies that someone must care about high school soccer.

[builtolast]

offside:  it says in your article that other families pitched in to help Dempsey, not his own parents doing it as you claimed.  That backs up my point not yours.  If there weren't kind and giving parents around, Dempsey wouldn't have been in club soccer...... So no, it doesn't speak to the people I am talking about....do you not see that seriously?

You intentionally don't give your sons high school coach or team any credit at all?  You don't think that he improved by going to practice and getting touches on the ball in high school season?  I have said before that my only problem with club soccer is that for some reason it seems to develop an attitude with many of its participants that high school soccer is a waste of time....and its not.  I am simply trying to say that high school gives ALL kids a chance.  Club soccer is a great way to get noticed, I am not debating that.  I'm just saying that its not so superior to high school that high school shouldn't exist.  You are claiming obviously that it is by not giving your sons high school team/coach any respect at all for the time they put in.

Your article also backs up the point I was going to make (but didn't want to because I thought you would take it personally) that if a kid is good enough it really doesn't matter where he is playing, he will draw attention.  I have seen that over and over.  So again, club isn't the only way.  It is a good way for mediocre players to get noticed.  The good ones don't absolutely need it to get noticed.  The competition is better in club and that makes players improve. 

[SirSoccer]

" that if a kid is good enough it really doesn't matter where he is playing, he will draw attention.  I have seen that over and over.  So again, club isn't the only way.  It is a good way for mediocre players to get noticed.  The good ones don't absolutely need it to get noticed."

That is just crazy. 

[Sportsaholic94]

Who on the USMNT and USWNT or even region team for that matter didn't play club ball? Now how many didn't play high school ball? That right there will show you. I promise you that there were ZERO that just played HS and no club

[Sportsaholic94]

HS is a fun time to relax, play with and against your friends, and play for your schoOl. Very, very, very rarely is it a time where you are getting intense training against other great players with great coaching. There may be only a few circumstances in Arkansas, if that. And most likely only a few in other states. Ask most serious players and they will tell you that high school is fun but they feel that when they go back to club after it, they are behind a couple of months

[builtolast]

Again, we have someone on this thread pointing out national teams, or professional players, high level professional club teams.....this is a thread debating whether or not we need high school soccer.  My point is that if a really good player comes through (and I have personally seen this) and can't afford club, they can still get noticed and get scholarship offers by playing high school.  I've seen D1 offers to those types of kids.   If you don't live in central Arkansas or NWA Arkansas, you may not travel to get in with Rush or LRFC...especially if your parents can't afford it.  SirSoccer: for you to call that crazy.......

I agree that club soccer is more competitive and is a great way to get noticed.  I AM NOT DEBATING THAT!!!!  I just feel that high school gives all kids an opportunity and it is necessary for the game to grow.  That doesn't mean I think high school is better than club because i don't.   I don't like that we have people saying high school shouldn't exist.  Those people, in my opinion, don't have the least concern in helping the game in our state.  This conversation hurts the game because high school kids get on here and see that people think its a waste of time.

I do have a negative view of club soccer right now because I believe that this "high school shouldn't exist" conversation comes from an attitude being promoted by people around club ball.

[soccerfiend]

Please name a player that played High School soccer only, preferably in Arkansas, that was recruited and offered because of his/ her play in high school only and where they attended college.
Thanks

[LRfan]

Please name a player that played High School soccer only, preferably in Arkansas, that was recruited and offered because of his/ her play in high school only and where they attended college.
Thanks

I totally agree with you. It doesn't happen. However, one could argue that since to date there has not been a viable year-around club option in Arkansas, all Arkansas kids that have gone on to play college soccer at the DI or DII level have played high school ball as well as club ball. (Exception: I have heard of one DI scholarship recruit on the girls side that played only club prior to her scholarship offer (ODP national team player), but plays high school ball now. But, back to your point...you cannot do it without club ball.

[builtolast]

Soccerfiend, I sent you a pm. 

[soccerfiend]

Just read back through every post in this thread and none of them say "high school soccer shouldn't exist". Many do say that their belief is that development of players is greater through clubs and several assert that individual player skills likely diminish during high school season. Almost all speak of a certain value in high school soccer whether it be camaraderie, school spirit, opportunity to play etc. And the vast majority speak of club soccer as an avenue to reach college soccer if that's what a player desires over a relative non opportunity while playing high school ball.
What I have trouble with is the almost "class warfare" that's being pushed in some of these posts by saying club soccer is elitist and unreachable for the masses. That only families of greater means can have their children play. I'm aware of players on just one particular team that drove to Central AR for practice from literally all corners of the state. This same team of approximately 16 players had definitely 5 possibly one or two more that were "Scholarshipped". Every one of those players were able to attend out of state events, mostly driving, occasionally even flying because other parents anonymously covered their expenses. Several of them received college looks and more than one a chance to play in college that they never would have gotten and their family never could have afforded. This to me is an organization, the Club, and a community, the team and parents, pulling together to give people opportunities that they likely never would have had. This happens with teams and clubs all over the state every year, year after year. Hardly selfish, exclusive, or elitist as these clubs, players, and parents are being cast.
I wonder also if everyone recognizes the pay to play aspects of almost all other sport from youth through college levels. Play pee wee football? There is a fee payable to the organizations that sponsor those programs. 7 on 7 tournaments? Yep a fee is involved. Baseball at Jr Deputy? You don't play unless you pay. A travel baseball team at a little older age? Even more expensive to participate. Your son or daughter play basketball at the boys club? Not unless you pay. AAU basketball? Expensive with fees, travel, etc. Daughter playing club volley ball? Pay your fees first if so. Tennis? Golf? Swimming? Not unless you pay your club, registration, travel, expenses.
So why is soccer singled out as a sport for kids with wealthy parents? Its just like any of these other sports with their fees and expenses. Fact is some can more than afford it. Other parents drive a truck with 150 thousand miles on it, work overtime, wear the same clothes day in and day out for years, eat on a budget, stay with friends when the travel, carpool and split the gas. They sacrifice for their children because that's what good parents do.
And why is it hard to understand that a coach would rather go to an AAU basketball tournament where he can see hundreds of teams with potential high level players, or a soccer showcase where he can see hundreds of teams with potential high level players, or a baseball tournament where he can watch players on 50 different teams. That coach knows that he just may run across someone who can really play just simply because of numbers of good players over visiting a hundred different high school games that may have A player that he might be interested in.
Lasly there's a significant misunderstanding that people who have never had the experience of recruiting for college soccer have. The misconception is that it must be somewhat like the recruiting process that we all hear about with football and basketball as sports fans. Wrong! The players, almost every one at every level, must recruit the coaches first and then they, the coach, may be interested. Especially in Arkansas and states like ours you must do your research, find teams that fit your style of play, evaluate whether or not they're seeking players at your position this year, contact the coaches with your achievements, resume, game tape etc. The next step is often finding a showcase they'll be at that your club team is attending and asking the coach to come watch you play. If they're interested you will likely start getting more communications from them at this point but it remains important for you to call, email, and mail them periodically to keep them up to date with what's happening with you. And if they then want to see more specifics about your play, work ethic, dedication, technical skills etc they may ask you to attend an ID camp on their campus where there will be other players and recruits and typically many of their own college players that they can measure you against.
  The bonus of showcases is that if many of your teammates are contacting coaches, and maybe you're playing a high level opponent with elite players that are contacting coaches, and/ or possibly playing close to the coaches' tent, other coaches/schools will see you play and may begin to talk to you as well. I've seen games where 30-35 different schools/coaches were watching teams play a game and as few as 2or 3drifting in and out. Obviously this formula that college soccer coaches tend to use to recruit doesn't work on the level of individual high school games. Coaches simply prefer to spend their limited time and budget in places where they can maximize their looks at multiple players on multiple teams who are potentially playing at a higher level.
High school soccer is a great sport that gives wonderful opportunities for kids to play for their schools and communities all over the state. It is fun to have natural rivalries and to play against friends and club teammates who are at different schools for bragging rights. It makes soccer accessible to many more kids. The time is coming when there will be an alternative offered to playing High School soccer, is has been contemplated in our state before, and I don't agree with that. I believe the rules should change (AAA) where the two can coexist at the same time during certain parts of the year so that our kids opportunities can be maximized as they are in so many other areas of the country. They both are valuable and we should support both.

[Sir Alex]

Please name a player that played High School soccer only, preferably in Arkansas, that was recruited and offered because of his/ her play in high school only and where they attended college.
Thanks

Justin Thompson of Harrison played at jbu.  Not division I but still a decent school at the time. Sorry you asked.  There is always an exception to the rule. There were also a number of kids from nw Arkansas that played at Williams baptist and never played club ball. 

[soccerfiend]

Oh no....not sorry I asked at all. There is never a 100% rule for anything! Always special circumstances.
Only a handful that can be recalled by multiple people over many years vs a significant amount on the other side of the formula is just as persuasive.
I'm all for kids in our state getting the opportunity to play no matter the avenue that takes them there.

[LRfan]

Please name a player that played High School soccer only, preferably in Arkansas, that was recruited and offered because of his/ her play in high school only and where they attended college.
Thanks

Justin Thompson of Harrison played at jbu.  Not division I but still a decent school at the time. Sorry you asked.  There is always an exception to the rule. There were also a number of kids from nw Arkansas that played at Williams baptist and never played club ball.

Oh no....not sorry I asked at all. There is never a 100% rule for anything! Always special circumstances.
Only a handful that can be recalled by multiple people over many years vs a significant amount on the other side of the formula is just as persuasive.
I'm all for kids in our state getting the opportunity to play no matter the avenue that takes them there.

It looks like indeed seven years ago a "high school -only" soccer player made an in-state NAIA roster. Not a really strong argument that high school soccer without club soccer is enough to have good opportunities at the next level. I know a woman who went to Westminster College thirty years ago and had never played soccer before college , but was asked to go out for the soccer team because she was a decent athlete and they needed players. She played on the college team. Is that an argument that one does not need any previous soccer experience in order to play the sport in college?

[hogbert]

*chortle*

[Sketchyatbest]

Andrew Davis only played High School soccer at LRCA (no club ball).  I think he is one of the all time scoring leaders with at least 100 goals over his 4 year career.  (Someone fact check me on that).  He is a starter on scholarship at Ouachita Baptist (DII).

[Lakeside24]

I'm on the side

Please name a player that played High School soccer only, preferably in Arkansas, that was recruited and offered because of his/ her play in high school only and where they attended college.
Thanks

When I graduated in 09 we had 3 guys. Evan Archer and Franky LaFevre went to play at Lyon, and Ben Pettigrew went to play at OBU. None of them played club, just high school and then the Hot Springs rec team.

[coach cleats]

For what it's worth. Arkansas odp showcase teams will be playing games against qbc and Lyon college this weekend. Teams are made up of 94 to 97 odp players. I think most all of the girls play High school soccer. Boys Too I think. Burns park   

[channa1]

I definitely want to reply on this topic. High School soccer is the way to go in our country. I just don't believe that the club team system we have will ever compete with the club team system in other countries.

My reasons for believing this are as follows:
1. In Europe the club system is not funded by kids parents. It is funded by multi-billion dollar professional operations that have pro teams that generate millions in revenue sometimes. Our club teams are founded on the backs of well meaning parents that work 9-5 jobs and can only pay for their child to play most of the time.

2. Soccer is most popular among people who don't have much money in this country (hispanics). If these kids were in Europe and were talented, they would be in "the stables" of a big time pro club that was giving them good meals, education, and coaching. Here, they go out and play with their friends, families, and church groups and men's league teams on Sundays because our clubs don't offer enough scholarships.

3. In Europe, this is how a club team works. A club like Barcelona will also have a school all the way down to the elementary level. Parents can pay for their child to go here, or their child can be a talented enough player to make it into the stables and receive a free education. When a player like Messi plays for Barcelona, he is playing for the team that gave him an education, meals, support, friends and social life, everything.

When a kid in America plays for Rush or LRFC, he is playing for a team that gave him a place to play soccer with good coaching and some weekend friends that he plays with. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Solution:

So what more resembles the European club system? The America club system, or the American High School System?

It's so simple. The High School System is much closer to the successful European system. It is the kind of system that develops loyalty to the team for so many more reasons than just the sake of playing for the team.

We will NEVER have anything like what the Europeans do. That is so easy to see. But honestly, we really need to develop what we already have in our own culture that has made some of the best athletes in the world in many other sports like track, hockey, basketball, swimming, etc.

Kids need a system that gives everyone the best chance to compete with eachother on a level playing field. They need a system that develops loyalty, friendship, fierce competition and home town pride and connection. This is a system that can win.

[coach cleats]

Well said.

[barcafan]

3 x High School - bubbas + Club - parents / money, carry the MES = soccer success

[offside]

"So what more resembles the European club system? The America club system, or the American High School System?

It's so simple. The High School System is much closer to the successful European system. It is the kind of system that develops loyalty to the team for so many more reasons than just the sake of playing for the team." -channa1

I like what channa1 would like to do.  But I think to get channa1's vision of high school soccer to work middle and high schools would need to be willing to extend the soccer season throughout the school year (this is to help keep us on equal footing with the coaching/training/games happening in Europe and South America). 

And schools will have to invest in soccer like they invest in american football.  Right now this is where clubs have an advantage.  Club seasons are getting longer and longer and there's an investment in coaches.  Plus more and more MLS clubs are investing much more into their youth systems.

But if we could move our high school soccer to the club/school system in other countries that could really work.  Many more young people would have access to developing their game and I think many more would become fans of the sport.   Not impossible I suppose but a tall order for schools already struggling with budgets.  Drop football and go with soccer.  Save money!  

[hope4change]

Been involved in both.  As a player Club was the best thing for me through u-14.   I developed all my skills growing up through the system starting at the u-6 level.     Then in the 9th grade was able to start on my High School team and soon found out that it was a much different game.   FASTER, STRONGER, MORE INTENSE AND PYSHICAL.    Lucky the skill I had made up for the loss of size and strength.    There was a big learning curve but in the end I found that the High School experice was much more enjoyable and challeging than club at this level.  During the fall I ws allowed to play club and found that the game lacked the speed I was use to at high school.   I also had the opprotunity to attend the region 3 ODP program and found out real fast that I just thought my skills where good.   I could not keep up with the boys from Tx, Fl, LA.    So my dream of College soccer was quickly dashed and I focused grades and High School Soccer.   Club will feed you a line about College but reality is each college only has 9 -10 scholarship to award for the entire team.    If a team has 25 on the roster do the math odds are not in your favor.   Focus on the fun and the grades.  BTW take a look at how many Boys have gotten scholarship over the past 5 year from the state of Arkansas.  Look at college roster and see where most of there players come from.   If I would have taken all the $ my parents spent on the club promise ( about $5000 a year) in fees, meal and travel For the 10 years I would have had $50,000 for my college.   So is high school needed YES!  Club NOT SO MUCH!

[SirSoccer]

you make statements that could be helpful but then add on things you don't know much about.

and I doubt any schools here in state aside from UofA has close to 9 or 10 scholarships they probably have 14.  The average is probably closer to 5-6.

Club is needed but it needs to be done properly and for development.  And some of the teams that say they are "club" are really just rec teams making you pay more. 

[channa1]

I disagree with only one thing just said, club is not needed. Some of the best players to ever come from Arkansas didn't play club, just high school soccer and mens league.

[hope4change]

T\If you will look on the NCAA website and research soccer scholarship you will find that each d1 school is allowed 9 scholarship in total for the entire team.   D2 9.9 . these are not per year but for a team.  So if a team already has 5 scholarship players on there team then they will only have 4 scholarship for the next class,    Secondly Club is usful in the young years but studies have shown that foot skills, ball movement and player instict is developed mostly in the young years u 6 - u 14,   After that is all about growth and maturity.     Still need to hone skillts but in a club setting in the u -15andup years I found that the club was more concerned about $$$ and paying the coaches and trainers.    High school was much faster and pyshical so I was much improved when I went to play club in the fall.   Yet while I was much improved when I attended ODP REgion 3 I got waxed.  Those guys where amazing.   There strenght speed and skill i could not compare.    You may be Geat in Arkansas but It is not a soccer state.   I think if you really wont to excell and have a shot at college then move to Tx, NC, or fl that is where they all come from.
h

[Rey Pygsterio]

Been involved in both.  As a player Club was the best thing for me through u-14.   I developed all my skills growing up through the system starting at the u-6 level.     Then in the 9th grade was able to start on my High School team and soon found out that it was a much different game.   FASTER, STRONGER, MORE INTENSE AND PYSHICAL.    Lucky the skill I had made up for the loss of size and strength.    There was a big learning curve but in the end I found that the High School experice was much more enjoyable and challeging than club at this level.  During the fall I ws allowed to play club and found that the game lacked the speed I was use to at high school.   I also had the opprotunity to attend the region 3 ODP program and found out real fast that I just thought my skills where good.   I could not keep up with the boys from Tx, Fl, LA.    So my dream of College soccer was quickly dashed and I focused grades and High School Soccer.   Club will feed you a line about College but reality is each college only has 9 -10 scholarship to award for the entire team.    If a team has 25 on the roster do the math odds are not in your favor.   Focus on the fun and the grades.  BTW take a look at how many Boys have gotten scholarship over the past 5 year from the state of Arkansas.  Look at college roster and see where most of there players come from.   If I would have taken all the $ my parents spent on the club promise ( about $5000 a year) in fees, meal and travel For the 10 years I would have had $50,000 for my college.   So is high school needed YES!  Club NOT SO MUCH!

Best case for high school soccer I've read.

[Sportsaholic94]

T\If you will look on the NCAA website and research soccer scholarship you will find that each d1 school is allowed 9 scholarship in total for the entire team.   D2 9.9 . these are not per year but for a team.  So if a team already has 5 scholarship players on there team then they will only have 4 scholarship for the next class,    Secondly Club is usful in the young years but studies have shown that foot skills, ball movement and player instict is developed mostly in the young years u 6 - u 14,   After that is all about growth and maturity.     Still need to hone skillts but in a club setting in the u -15andup years I found that the club was more concerned about $$$ and paying the coaches and trainers.    High school was much faster and pyshical so I was much improved when I went to play club in the fall.   Yet while I was much improved when I attended ODP REgion 3 I got waxed.  Those guys where amazing.   There strenght speed and skill i could not compare.    You may be Geat in Arkansas but It is not a soccer state.   I think if you really wont to excell and have a shot at college then move to Tx, NC, or fl that is where they all come from.
h

I'm not sure what club you grew up in that you are so bitter about but most clubs these days are about developing the player. Players are still growing drastically from u15-u19. Kids usually benefit from their first 2 years of high school because they are playing against better guys but their last 2 they seem to get worse because the game is so slow and the competition isn't near as good as in club. The good club teams that care about player development will make sure you go to the big time showcases so you are getting to play against the top teams. Or even Premier league competition is wayyyy better than high school. Who is a top player to come out of the state in the last 10-20 years that just played high school? Ask any top player... They enjoy high school and say its fun but they also say its a time where they relax and don't improve. It's a nice break from club but you aren't improving usually. There is that rare chance where a hs team is amazing and you do improve but not often.

[offside]

"You may be Geat in Arkansas but It is not a soccer state.   I think if you really wont to excell and have a shot at college then move to Tx, NC, or fl that is where they all come from. " -hope4change

I like hope4change adding his perspective to this discussion.  However I think things are changing in Arkansas.  We're a small state with a small soccer population.  But right now there are 7 Arkansas players that are on D1 College Men's Soccer rosters (4 out of state and 3 in Arkansas -- at UCA).  And there might be a player or two I'm not aware of.  And I know one player who declined an offer from a D1 school and two others that had interest from D1 schools but chose to play D2 and D3 because of their academic choice.  Keeping everything in perspective I think this is remarkable progress for Arkansas Soccer.

High School is certainly contributing to the growing interest of soccer in Arkansas.  And this is great. All 10 players probably enjoyed some moments of high school soccer.  But their priorities were in Club soccer.  Club opened the doors to be exposed to D1 programs.

ALL these players played for good Arkansas based club teams.

[soccerfiend]

I also appreciate the perspective that hope4 brings to the discussion but I think it is clearly a limited one.
High school soccer in Arkansas today is exciting, competitive, has great rivalries, and is fun to play but is not where the best development of players takes place. I wish it were but unfortunately it's just not.
If your club soccer choices are limited in the area that you grow up as to competition coaching and opportunities to play with and against more highly skilled players then high school soccer may give you the best chance to develop- on your own against equal or slightly better players.
But if you have the chance to play on a high level club team you play with the best players from multiple different high school teams around the state and against teams from those high level states that  hope4 is naming, North Carolina, Texas, Louisiana etc on a regular basis with excellent coaching and training pointed toward making you the best player you can be.
There is no better way to develop into the best player you can be than to play with and against the best players available combined with the best personal and team coaching available. High level club soccer provides that even in Arkansas. I love high school soccer but unfortunately it does not provide the same.

[SirSoccer]

hope4change just doesn't understand how everything works.  I know what the limits are for DI and DII... that doesn't mean those schools have it.  I know harding has around 5-6 scholarships, i know ouachita doesn't have half of that.   

But if you think your skills were developed by 14 that is why you had no chance in college.  The clubs are trying to develop players all the way through.  And just to help you out... ODP doesn't get the best kids from the good states anymore.  They don't bother with it. 

[ScottFaldon]

T\If you will look on the NCAA website and research soccer scholarship you will find that each d1 school is allowed 9 scholarship in total for the entire team.   D2 9.9 . these are not per year but for a team. 

Most spring sports chop up scholarships. A star player might get a half scholarship, while a promising freshman might get books only. It's rare for spring athletes to get a full ride.

[hope4change]

If there is a case made for High School Soccer it was at the 6A in Mtn Home this weekend.    Mtn Home, Russeville and Searcy have strong teams.  The atmosphere was electric and the crowds amazing.   Club ball never offers anything close to this.    If Mtn Home did not have High School soccer most of the men/women on the team would not have an option to play.   Question how does a high school team do so well against other high school teams who are made of a majority of club players.  The Jonesboro team is flush with Rush players and other who were and have been involved in Club soccer.    Searcy has a strong club team and Russeville is always tough in a club setting.    If these club teams' players are so much better than the high school players then how does a team like Mtn Home become so competitive.     If club was as strong as it claims to be then the teams with a strong club presence should dominate at the High School Level.    Club and High School can help each other out for the betterment of the sport and players if all will look at both sides of the issue.   

BTW Mtn Home had a great home field advantage.  In one game they had an announcer in the press box who gave a play by play for Mtn Home.  Additionally the fields at the Mtn Home complex where not to regulation and in one instance the Mtn home play by play guy gave a rule interpretation over the loud speaker that reminded the Refs of the 10 yard free kick rule.    He did not do this for the opposing team when they had free kicks.

[RSVL02]

While I can't speak for Searcy, I can speak for Russellville.  Even though Russellville teams do well in a "club setting", you can't really call Russellville's soccer association (AVSA) a "Club".  There are NO paid trainers or coaches.  All coaches for all teams in the association are volunteer coaches and parents of the kids (most of which didn't even play soccer when they were kids).

That doesn't mean that these kids aren't getting proper training and the tools they need, it just means that they (and their parent coaches) have to work harder and longer.  I assume this is the same reason that Mountain Home is so competitive in the 6A.

[Rey Pygsterio]

I'd like to see the top club teams play the top high-school teams and see what happens.

Club and high-school soccer must coexist, and the people marginalizing high-school soccer are really only thinking of the benefits for a small handful of players who go on to ultra-success in club soccer.

This national movement has it all wrong -- unless the goal is to reduce the number of players and interest in youth soccer.

[hope4change]

Agree with Both.  Even more remarkable for Russeville who does not have the Rush. LRFC, NWA Comets club systems.    By the way is Club is so great where did conway wind up in 7a.  Out of the mix while those with little club access did very well.   

[SirSoccer]

h4c we get that you don't like club.  Overall arkansas is behind in soccer.  We need every aspect of the game to raise the level as a whole.  Club is where the best players will go, it is where college coaches go to recruit, in most cases clubs are where you will find better coaches compared to high school.  Get over your issue with not being good enough to play in college, its your fault for thinking you were the best when you were 14. 

[offside]

The whole high school soccer experience is a ton of fun!  Representing your school, much bigger crowds at the games.  And yes, there are some schools that play good soccer.  I absolutely believe we need high school soccer. 

From 4A through 7A there are lots of high school players in Arkansas with the skill to play in college or beyond.

Unfortunately if you are a player that wants to play college soccer or be one of the few that gets the opportunity to become a pro then school soccer is a poor way to reach your goals.

This is not an attack on the quality of high school soccer players or even good high school programs.  It's just the way the soccer culture has developed in the United States.  Club is the pathway to college or pro recruitment.  Basketball and definitely Hockey seem to be migrating more and more to a club emphasis too.

This can change for soccer.  But it will require colleges and potential pro scouts to become completely engaged in high school soccer. 

So for now if there is a desire to play competitive soccer after high school players and parents put a much greater emphasis on their club experience.

[hope4change]

Sir do you really need to make this personal?   Really?   How dare you even think that you are qualified to pass judgment on anyone?  Not against club soccer yet there is a strong argument to be made for High School as well.  Club strongly discourages participation in a High School Program and I have never seen a High School program discourage participation in Club.   For this reason I am not a fan of Club I have seen to many kids become brain washed only to end up subsidizing the system.   If you need to make it personal then we can certainly do that.   At my age I have seen and been involved in both sides.  Coaching a premiere league in NM and High School in the St Louis area.  Not sure where your "Soccer Experience" extends from but I would suggested you know of which and whom you speak of before you attack a person and their ability.

[SirSoccer]

You have made it clear that your argument stems from a personal matter with Club.  You brought in your own experience into it.  Club is the gateway to college, not high school.  High school should be fun and representing something, but if you choose HS over Club don't expect to make it past hs.

I think we need both, i've stated that.

[hope4change]

agree we need both. 

You have made it clear that your argument stems from a personal matter with Club.  You brought in your own experience into it.  Club is the gateway to college, not high school.  High school should be fun and representing something, but if you choose HS over Club don't expect to make it past hs.

I think we need both, i've stated that.

[ScottFaldon]

From 4A through 7A there are lots of high school players in Arkansas with the skill to play in college or beyond.

Lots? I don't know about that.

[Rey Pygsterio]

Basketball and definitely Hockey seem to be migrating more and more to a club emphasis too.

A) Club basketball has poisoned the game and has come to represent everything wrong with youth sports and college recruiting. Very bad example.

B) What is hockey?