High School Soccer-do we need it?

[Sir Alex]

Interesting Article from Soccer America that I thought I would share with the rest of you.

The case for high school soccer



By Mike Barr

The U.S. Soccer Developmental Academy league will soon be telling its players to not play high school soccer or any other high school sports. Most parents of these elite players will buy into the decision, much in the same way they believe it costs thousands of dollars to assure their child becomes a strong player and receives that $2,000 partial scholarship. Not surprisingly, the developmental academies will now be forced to charge more for training and travel.

It seems within youth soccer ideas are implemented with little thought, time, trials or research. We have become a soccer country that relies on the innovations of other countries without coming up with ideas of our own that reflect our society and culture.

The claims that high school soccer is detrimental to development seem to resonate from coaches and administrators who are involved with the Academy programs at the national level. In my opinion high school soccer should remain an important part of our youth sports landscape and parents should examine the pros and cons before making such a decision that could impact their child's future. I will attempt to unravel the facts for parents:

1) Playing with the academy team and with elite players will enhance my son's soccer skills.

Yes, and could possibly inhibit his growth, if he is now a substitute or locked into a position that limits touches on the ball and erodes at confidence. He could go from the player to play through or target in high school, to relinquishing roles on the field because the strength of other players on his academy team are seen to be stronger.

2) The quality of coaching at the Academy level is stronger than at the high school level.

This may be the case in some instances but there are many high school coaches who are more capable and more qualified than many academy coaches and many high school coaches have a vast amount of experience at club and ODP.

3) Quality of competition is stronger at the academy level.

Again, it may be the case in some matches but many high school games are much more competitive than Academy play, especially when teams are competing for a league, district or state title.

4). He will enjoy Academy play more.

Talk to almost any elite or high level player within the last fifteen years and almost every player will tell you that playing for their high school team was more enjoyable than club or their college playing experience. High School soccer still replicates the neighborhood club teams of years ago and the entire community still identifies with high school soccer as their own. Playing with your close peers and representing your community is something special.

Attendance at high school soccer matches always attracts more fans than any academy matches, because a community cannot get behind a program that has kids from up to 50 miles away associated with a team.

5) Playing high school will impede development.

An elite high school player begins play against players who may be four years older who are faster and stronger. Young players are forced to develop fast and develop a strong first touch. As they move into their junior and senior years they assume a role as leader and carry more responsibility to their team and themselves. Playing within the academy structure very few players assume or are introduced to the role of leader.

6) Playing Academy will provide up to four nights of training and matches on the weekend for 10 months.

Try to imagine the difficulty of maintaining quality grades if every day you are in a car for two hours, in addition to training for two hours. When will a player be able to experience the after school experiences we all enjoyed as high school students?

There will be little or no time to attend social functions, participate in music or theatre, clubs and play other sports. During the college interview many colleges and universities are looking for a well-rounded student. Will playing in the Academy actually hurt my chances to get your child in the school of his choice?

Since we have adopted the academy philosophy of European clubs; possibly U.S. Soccer should replicate these programs and have only developmental academies directed by each MLS Club. All training, travel and expenses would be covered by the club. Each player brought into an MLS academy would realize they have the potential to play professionally.

There still is something special to playing with friends in front of parents and peers and experiencing the thrill and social aspects of high school sports. Quite possibly we could see a resurgence of players staying with their own local clubs and make soccer a reasonably priced sport to play once again.

(Mike Barr is the Director of Coaching of the Eastern Pennsylvania Youth Soccer Association. He coached the boys team at Strath Haven High School in 1984-2005, winning five PIAA state titles, six PIAA District One titles and 16 Central League titles.)

[sevenof400]

Hmm..perhaps we should reply to the article from the Arkansas perspective....

[Sir Alex]

Hmm..perhaps we should reply to the article from the Arkansas perspective....

And that would be?

[offside]

I've made my opinion on this issue a few times on this forum. 

Mike Barr is wrong... Actually he's not wrong.  He makes good points on for both high school and Academy (Club).  BUT in my opinion...

There are a few exceptions where high school coaches are very knowledgeable and help a player progress.  But the majority of the time an elite player in Arkansas will struggle to keep his/her skills and tactical knowledge from sliding backwards during high school season.

And even if you have a rare high school coach many of the players on the team do not have the same year round soccer training the club players get.  And often the high school competition is substantially inferior to playing top club teams.  It is what it is.

It's fun to play high school soccer and represent your school.  And this may be a legitimate reason to celebrate high school soccer.  It does get more high school players into the sport.

But in general the high school game is a detriment to developing high level soccer in Arkansas.

[creek5]

I think high school soccer does have value in Arkansas though.  At least simply because it serves as a vehicle to generate interest in the sport in counties and cities and regions where it would not ordinarily be available. 

Of course, yes the coaching is not the perfect, and it is not usually pretty.  It does advance the game in ways that club soccer cannot and for that reason it has value.

[barcafan]

First of all, Clint Dempsey played high school soccer.

The main difference between in coaching between the high school vs. club/academy is in organizational purpose and accountability for quality coaches.  School boards and athletic directors couldn't care less about soccer most of the time therefore they won't care who is coaching their soccer team.  In contrast, club/academies sole purpose [should be] is to develop soccer players.  Therefore they are [should be] employing quality coaches.

There are exceptions to the rule since there are many quality high school coaches and many poor club coaches.  Because of purpose/accountability the ratio is of relatively higher quality coaches is more likely to be in favor of club/academy. 

This does NOT mean we don't need high school soccer.  High school soccer is necessary for many reasons.  The general reason is that more soccer is better than less.  But specifically:

1) Multiple levels of competition is a good thing.  HS soccer in some places is the best.
2) Multiple venues of opportunities is a good thing.  HS soccer adds a cost-friendly option.
3) The more soccer-oriented our culture the better.  HS sports is a major part of our culture.

Arkansas parents, players, etc need to stop crying about how Arkansas high school soccer (and even ODP) sucks and do something about it.  ODP has already improved since Parr's arrival.  If you want it to improve more then help the state bring in more $ to afford more staff.  Schools serve the people, if you want a good high school coach instead of a third string football assistant - make it happen!  While your at it, hit up the AAA to implement rules that are more complementary with club and actually in the best interest of student-athletes.

[coach cleats]

Well  I think high school soccer it absolutely necessary to continue the growth of soccer in the U.S.  It's the best way to educate the masses to the beauty of the game. As for player development, I believe the best players develop themselves. Yes they need proper coaching. But playing for a club in the states does not guarantee this. I know several high school coaches that coached at the college level. Others that have never played the game.

By the time players get to high school age they will have a good idea of their abilities. If they have been playing club soccer at a high level and they start playing hs soccer they become player
Coaches. This aids in they're development as a player and as a person.

Just my two cents....

[Gametime11]

High school soccer is essential to those who can't afford to go pay for ODP(although it is rather reasonable in my opinion), have the time, money or resources for the Academy, or any other camps or training sessions available. We don't need to have high school soccer to be successful in the future, we MUST have it. In my opinion, this allows many kids in families with economic problems a chance to do something productive instead of having talent go to waste.

[SirSoccer]

Soccer isn't an Elitest game, everyone is able to play.  In American we should just be happy when we have enough players wanting to play that more high schools are starting up teams.  I understand the point for the best of the best players and would say sure, go play just club or academy.  In general, high school soccer is a good thing for the game even when it is hard to watch.  At some point High Schools might higher more coaches that are qualified and things will continue to get better.

[KCShinn21]

This is not the first time I have heard this general tone from those representing the club side toward the high school side and I still believe it is a destructive perspective. The growth of soccer in school systems across the state has been responsible for exposing kids and parents to a wonderful sport they otherwise would never have watched. We are greatly indebted to club soccer for establishing the sport across the country but club soccer is indebted to school soccer for growing the fan base. I still believe the economics of the problem means that school soccer will always trump club soccer in the numbers of athletes reached compared to those who support the club system. It would be nice if the two groups could work together but there is so much money at stake for the club side, I am dubious they can find common ground. If they could, there would be a recognition of how important high school soccer is to the growth of the sport and how big a role US Soccer could play in developing coaches and the sport at the high school level. We can dream.

[offside]

I suppose I could be classified as a "club side" person.  Although club soccer in general is not helping US youth soccer consistently develop players ready to play at the highest level.

U.S. Soccer just officially announced last Friday that the U.S. Soccer Development Academy is moving to a 10-month season starting with the 2012-13 season.  This will put it in conflict with high school soccer.

I love soccer.  It's my favorite sport.  So I value high school soccer and appreciate some of the comments already made about how high school soccer has grown in Arkansas.

But I stand by my assertion that high school soccer in it's current form (especially in Arkansas) is not a good system for preparing our best soccer players for D1 or professional soccer.

U.S. Soccer is trying to emulate what seems to work in Europe and South America.  But this is challenging because:
(1) soccer (football) is the dominant sport in Europe and South America.  The culture is a lot different.
(2) the American high school system plays a very significant role in sports.
So what happens in Europe and South America is hard to implement in the United States.

There are positives.  Soccer in Arkansas is probably better than it has ever been.  And we can thank high school soccer for contributing to the overall improvement (participation) in the sport.  Club soccer is getting better too.  The caliber of coaching at LRFC and the Rush is better than it's ever been.

What we could improve on are requirements for high school coaches to get at least a D license to coach soccer.  This would be a dramatic improvement.  But again, probably difficult to enforce.

Another improvement would be to compel the AAA to allow club players to continue to train with their clubs and compete at weekend Showcases during the spring.

As it is now high school soccer is a growing sport.  But with very few exceptions it does not help our elite players develop.  I could easily build a case that high school soccer causes our best players to fall behind.

But it's cool to have people on this forum passionate about soccer.  I believe over time things will improve. 

Sorry I'm not patient enough.

[KCShinn21]

A pay-to-play system by its very nature will always exclude many of our best athletes and will never develop the kind of fan base that schools already have in place. I am very appreciative of the contributions made by the club system but the facts are that the American public is tuned into the junior high, high school, college, professional model. The idea that these club teams will ever compete for the kind of public support that the school system has in place is just not reasonable. Schools are already producing more graduates from their programs than the clubs and those kids are going on to play at the college level and will become the next generation of high school coaches who will produce the next generation of college players. The higher the percentage of our best athletes that we get drawn into our sport the better the sport will become. It is also a fallacy to assume you can determine who will be the best professional athletes when they are in their mid teens. Pick any sport in America and the crap shoot of who will be and who won't be the greatest is relived with every recruiting class and every draft. This decision by US Soccer simply is not the best path for moving soccer forward in the United States. It is the best path forward for protecting the salaries of those associated with the club system.

[offside]

One of the reasons our "pay to play" club system was developed was because of the sheer lack of quality soccer at the high school level in the United States. 

Other popular American sports are moving into the club establishment.  Hockey has been a club sport for many years.  And more recently basketball is becoming more and more of a club sport.

Like soccer more and more D1 college coaches are using club basketball to evaluate players (example: The Real Deal in the Rock).

There was a time when most high school athletes in even the largest high school divisions played multiple sports.  But today more (not all) athletes focus on one sport and play and train almost year round. 

Arkansas football has made significant progress with rigorous off season programs, spring football and the explosion of the 7 v 7 tournaments.

American high school sports are changing, adapting as athletes specialize.  And the quality on the field and courts is definitely much greater than it was 10 to 20 years ago.

U.S. Soccer moving their growing Academy teams to a 10 month season is about longer more specialized training and coaching.   It's not that a Arkansas High School player could never play professional soccer.  But if the majority your soccer training/playing is focused on a four month high school season then your chances of keeping up with the rest of the world's youth playing 10 months of club soccer is very unlikely.

Even if ALL our greatest Jr high and high school athletes picked soccer as their primary sport over time they would fall more and more behind the elite players competing and training year round.   

You combine the lack of knowledge of the majority of Arkansas high school soccer coaches and the four months we do play soccer in high school and you can see why in general our soccer lacks high level skill, tactics, and high level understanding of the game.

That's why (at least for now) club soccer is critical (and club basketball, and club hockey, and club baseball, and club volleyball, and...

[Sportsaholic94]

High school soccer might grow the fan support for soccer in America but it rarely helps increase the talent level. This is why the Academy season has been extended to a 10 month season. America is pushing to be more like the youth soccer overseas. Those kids who choose to be in the 10 month academy season will be the better kids in the country because they aren't playing high school.

Yes, high school soccer may be fun to watch and to be a part of but it isn't making our youth any better skill wise. If you want to get better you need to practice every day with great players under great coaching which rarely, rarely is a high school environment

[Sir Alex]

Just out of curiousity, who are these great coaches that we have coaching club soccer in Arkansas that are not coaching high school soccer also?

[offside]

I never referred to "great" club coaches in any of my posts.  And I made a point to acknowledge there were a few good high school soccer coaches in Arkansas.

There are many local club coaches who have a depth of playing and coaching experience.   Most have played for many years including 4 years of college soccer.  Some have college coaching experience and a few have played professional soccer. 

To my knowledge all have at least a D coaching license from the U.S. Soccer Federation and many have an A license (the highest level).

Here are some good and (in my opinion) some great coaches that have been involved in Club Soccer in central Arkansas. 

Hewlett Huggins
Mathew Mittelstaedt
Oscar Lung'ago
Julian Owen
Nick Sherwood
Brittney Axford
Nick Harbert
Pat Reed
Andrea Richmond
Chad Flanders

I know I am missing several other quality club coaches.   And thankfully a few of the coaches on my list have been invited to help with high school teams.  Don't think any of these folks are currently high school coaches.

[Sir Alex]

Fair enough, but you did say the quality of coaching in two certain clubs was better than ever.  Many of the names mentioned have been coaching with those clubs for years.  There are only two names that I did not recognize.   Most of the best club coaches in the northwest also coach high school soccer.  The point I am getting at is that there are a bunch of quality high school coaches who also coach club teams, just depends on what part of the state you live in.  The old school thought process of throw ball coaches coaching real football is not so prevalent any longer.  There are way more than just a few good high school coaches in Arkansas.

I never referred to "great" club coaches in any of my posts.  And I made a point to acknowledge there were a few good high school soccer coaches in Arkansas.

There are many local club coaches who have a depth of playing and coaching experience.   Most have played for many years including 4 years of college soccer.  Some have college coaching experience and a few have played professional soccer. 

To my knowledge all have at least a D coaching license from the U.S. Soccer Federation and many have an A license (the highest level).

Here are some good and (in my opinion) some great coaches that have been involved in Club Soccer in central Arkansas. 

Hewlett Huggins
Mathew Mittelstaedt
Oscar Lung'ago
Julian Owen
Nick Sherwood
Brittney Axford
Nick Harbert
Pat Reed
Andrea Richmond
Chad Flanders

I know I am missing several other quality club coaches.   And thankfully a few of the coaches on my list have been invited to help with high school teams.  Don't think any of these folks are currently high school coaches.

[coach cleats]

I agree with Sir Alex. Most of the better club coaches in the northwest also coach in high school.  Samir Haj, Kristina Henry, Steve. Oliver all coach club and high school soccer coaches. Two of the coaches in little rock played for Chris Pratt at ualr. He now coaches at Harrison and is director of coaching for NASA .

[S00Ccer]

Yes, you might have some decent coaches here and there. But the level of play in Arkansas High school soccer is awful. You might get decent instruction. But Your decision making, first touch, and speed of play will suffer. Not saying you can't play high school soccer in another state and find a good level of play. Its about putting yourself in the best environment to improve. Right now. In Arkansas. High School soccer is not the place. I wish we had another outlet for kids that can't afford Club.

[Havin Fun]

Given the comments about ODP and Arkansas Soccer talent, how many existing arkansas high school boys have actually been chosen to play beyond their state ODP team?
If it is a low number would that not indicate club soccer is not getting it done in Arkansas?
Should make for a healthy discussion !

[Sportsaholic94]

Most of the top players in the state don't even do odp...

[Havin Fun]

Then they aren't that good based on all the club chatter. that would be like saying the best basketball players don't play in the NBA. ODP is the national standard. If the clubs can't get their kids to compete at that level they are failing.
Maybe we need less club and a stronger high school soccer system.

[Sportsaholic94]

That comparison doesn't make sense. This is youth soccer, not professional. Let me name some of the college bound/top players in the state who don't do odp or have then decided not to do it after trying.

AJ smith- John Brown. did it then decided to stop
Hunter Weber- UAB. Did it then stopped
CJ Thompson- Hendrix. Did it then stopped.
Chris Holmes- one of the best freshmen in the state. Did it then stopped.
Walker Jones- did it then stopped


And that's just a few... Odp is a joke now, especially in our region and even more in our state.

[Havin Fun]

Good point. I just remember the Hildigo kid and Alex Carter being very well recognized. The kids you mention are no doubt good, but Arkansas needs those kids doing ODP or we will always be fighting a losing battle for recognition.

[sevenof400]

You should also keep in mind the ODP is changing -significantly- with the rise of the academy programs.  ODP is fast becoming obsolete as a mechanism to identify talent - and one could say that the highest level players in Arkansas have known this for some time. 

Another problem with ODP was Arkansas teams seldom (if ever) received much attention from regional coaches at the regional camps.  Arkansas has had several good players over the years but never anywhere near enough to form a team that would compete well at the regional ODP camp (a team that would keep coaches attention for more than a few minutes while looking for talent...).

[fanofsiloam]

OK I've been off Fearless Friday for a while so I'm just now reading this thread.  I would like to add my thoughts on this.
1) Arkansas is too spread out as a state with too few teams to play for.  Example: I know a kid from Siloam who is talented but has no team to play for, so he chooses to drive to Conway to play for Rush.  I don't know many who would/could make that kind of commitment.  The major METRO areas have the opportunities and structure to support quality players.  In reality, unless you live in the LR/Conway area you are extremal limited in choices.  THIS ONLY APPLIES TO OLDER BOYS PLEASE.
2) HS soccer gives those who can't afford the additional training the opportunity to get touches on the ball. And if you do play club you only train 2-3x a week.  HS is every day, great benefit! If you don't like the quality of HS soccer coach you have then get involved by talking to your AD, school board, or the coach himself.  Offer to send him/her to get their licence and get them on the right track.  I have to admit, slotting some random coach into the head coaching postion (who doesn't know come here from sic'um) is not good for the program.  However, if you can show support for the program as a SUPPORTIVE parent then you might see some improvement.
3) I too know several kids who have the talent load to do ODP but from years of embarrassment of being the team on the highlight reel as being the ones getting scored on, and scored on, and scored on...they really didn't want any part of it.  Can't say I would blame them.  However, the kids also read these blogs and it needs to be known that this past summer our ODP teams got more looks and advancement than in previous years.  The program has improved and been more accessable by being held in 2 different locations which helps in participation.  The kids need to understand that this is a resume builder if you will and participation needs to take place.  Please talk positively about the program when possible.  It is improving.

[Havin Fun]

Very well said fanofsiloam.

[Sir Alex]

I disagree with your statement that ODP is improving, especially with the older boys.  If you do not believe me, go and check out the next training session for the 94-96's in NW Arkansas. 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I do respect your's.   

OK I've been off Fearless Friday for a while so I'm just now reading this thread.  I would like to add my thoughts on this.
1) Arkansas is too spread out as a state with too few teams to play for.  Example: I know a kid from Siloam who is talented but has no team to play for, so he chooses to drive to Conway to play for Rush.  I don't know many who would/could make that kind of commitment.  The major METRO areas have the opportunities and structure to support quality players.  In reality, unless you live in the LR/Conway area you are extremal limited in choices.  THIS ONLY APPLIES TO OLDER BOYS PLEASE.
2) HS soccer gives those who can't afford the additional training the opportunity to get touches on the ball. And if you do play club you only train 2-3x a week.  HS is every day, great benefit! If you don't like the quality of HS soccer coach you have then get involved by talking to your AD, school board, or the coach himself.  Offer to send him/her to get their licence and get them on the right track.  I have to admit, slotting some random coach into the head coaching postion (who doesn't know come here from sic'um) is not good for the program.  However, if you can show support for the program as a SUPPORTIVE parent then you might see some improvement.
3) I too know several kids who have the talent load to do ODP but from years of embarrassment of being the team on the highlight reel as being the ones getting scored on, and scored on, and scored on...they really didn't want any part of it.  Can't say I would blame them.  However, the kids also read these blogs and it needs to be known that this past summer our ODP teams got more looks and advancement than in previous years.  The program has improved and been more accessable by being held in 2 different locations which helps in participation.  The kids need to understand that this is a resume builder if you will and participation needs to take place.  Please talk positively about the program when possible.  It is improving.

[sevenof400]

I'd love to talk positively about the ODP program past the state level but the trends just have not warranted such optimism.  However, in the interest of full disclosure, I will say the program within the state has improved and credit should be given to the current staff for this.

When a player enters the ODP at the state level, the cost is $100.  For this amount, players are now receiving an increased amount of training (i.e. more training dates) and opportunities for games before a state team is picked.  In other words, I think it is fair to say that a player receives more for their entry fee now than ever before on the state level. 

Also, there are increase opportunities for combined state games (i.e sub regional competition).  Without a doubt, these have been positive trends but while the initial portion of the program has improved, the back end (i.e. regional portion) is moving in the opposite direction. 

I do agree with Sir Alex's POV because the program still suffers in that too few of the top players participate in the program (for various reasons).  Sending state teams to regional in past years was a disaster because of too little talent and too few players.  Previous state administrations attempted to form multi-state teams with much less success than the current administration but they found less success. 

[hogbert]

I agree with last two, ODP is improving under the new leadership. However, if your kid has a good club coach (and we can debate what "good" is) he's going to get all the training and exposure he needs to develop and get noticed.  Let take the much discussed Carter girl. Do we really think it took ODP in Arkansas for her to get noticed? Don't think so. Anyway, she plays for rush, so she's going straight to the top! ( I kid)

[coach cleats]

Good points. I know several odp players who play high school soccer and are coached by odp coaches. So in theory they are coached by the highest level of coaching in Arkansas. Five days a week two hours a day. This is the case in fayetteville , bentonville ,Harrison and har ber I think. But let's not forget that the kids have to be dedicated to the program not just the parents. Odp is a selection process. Almost all will fail to make the national team. It takes a very special person to continue to do something faced with almost certain failure. Let the kids decide if they are willing to put forth the effort to be a national player.

[Sportsaholic94]

Let take the much discussed Carter girl. Do we really think it took ODP in Arkansas for her to get noticed? Don't think so. Anyway, she plays for rush, so she's going straight to the top! ( I kid)

What exactly do you have against the Rush? You've mentioned a couple times how you don't like it. Did they do you or your kid wrong or something?

[SirSoccer]

^well said.

[NWAL 95 COACH]

I hope this won't be too lengthy but I will give my personal experience with the ODP process.
The first year my daughter was eligible to make the Region 3 ODP team she did not. We took the evaluation provided at the camp in Alabama and worked on a those things. Since that time she has been selected to the Region 3 pool team each year.  The pool is made up of about 40 players from the entire region. The next step from the pool is for the coaches to select 18 of those 40 to the Thanksgiving Inter-regional camp in Boca Raton, FL. 
Aside from training, the region 3 team plays the other 3 regions in pool play. Region 3 has won the pool games the last 3 years for the 95 age group so the region does pretty well. My daughter along with Alex were selected to the pool of 18. The coaches at the camp are evaluating the players to be selected to the International teams.

There is also a follow up developmental camp in January in California where the coaches then select from the original pool of 40 who did not go to Boca Raton to either find and fill holes for the international rosters or to get a better look at a player they were not sure about in Boca Raton.

The coaches then select 18 players for the International roster. Last year it was Germany and France Both Tayler Estrada and Alex Carter from Arkansas made that Roster last year. This years team is going to Italy leaving in a few weeks. Tayler was again selected for that roster. I didn't see Alex's name on it but I believe she may have declined the trip as I believe she was on the original selection list and thus replaced by someone else from the remaining pool.

I've attended the Boca Raton inter-regional games the last two years and it is a very competitive environment with some very skilled players. The players have to not only show up with their skills refined but also with the right attitude. Which includes being willing to play any position. This last year both Tayler and Alex were put on the field as outside defenders. Not the usual center spots they are accustomed to. The coaches catch on pretty quick to attitude. I recall last year some players came with the wrong attitude and were not on the rosters this year...

The games also provide the players to great exposure to college coaches. The sidelines were filled with almost every D1 coach out there. Stanford, Norte Dame, North Carolina, etc... Obviously the coaches couldn't talk to the players due to NCAA rules but they were their evaluating. Not a lot of parents there, primarily college coaches.

All that to say while its easy to criticize the experience there also has to be a very realistic look at one's skills and commitment. At the Alabama camp where they chose the players for the next step the Arkansas teams play all the other states teams and have the same exposure to the coaches making selections, they do play the North Carolinas, North and South Texas, etc. 

I attended one of the work out sessions locally a few weeks ago where my son was trying out. The topic of that session was defending in small groups. The coaches struggled to move through the session as the kids struggled with the basic understanding of pressure, cover, balance.  The coaches were using the same sessions, they teach from the intro "E" license course all the way up. But the kids just didn't demonstrate they understood what to do. So the session seemed slow and boring.

My complaint over the years about ODP is that sessions are so dumbed down but they are because the coaches must continually go back to the basics because the kids either lack the technical skills or lack the tactical understanding that should be reinforced at both the club and high school arenas. 

Perhaps I provided too much personal experience. But as both a coach and a parent its very easy to say the system failed the kid. It is a very, very competitive environment. I really believe if the player is willing to do what others choose not to, the opportunities will come.

Sorry for the long note. But my take on the topic

[sevenof400]

Nice read NWAL 95 Coach. 

One point for consideration: In its present format, I think the ODP process works better for the girls than the boys if for no other reason than ODP is still the main method to identify girls.  This is also a reflection of the collegiate opportunities for girls to play soccer (many) as opposed to boys (not as many) AND the number of girls competing for those spots (not so many) as the boys (way more). 

In the end, as time goes by I hope more of our Arkansas soccer players find opportunities to play at the college level.   

[hogbert]

Let take the much discussed Carter girl. Do we really think it took ODP in Arkansas for her to get noticed? Don't think so. Anyway, she plays for rush, so she's going straight to the top! ( I kid)

What exactly do you have against the Rush? You've mentioned a couple times how you don't like it. Did they do you or your kid wrong or something?

No issue with rush per se, Conway united has done what they see as next step to grow up as a soccer org. My issue is the suggestion, as has been proffered on this board, that they are the only ones training kids the "right way" and getting them into colleges...all because the Carter girl happens to live in Conway. To me, it'd be like saying Westside Y soccer is a great program to develop Razorback kickers because of Hocker's success. By the way, several boys off that Westside team are playing college soccer. LRFC, Cabot and others have all had kids go play college soccer. Rush does not have a magic formula for "getting kids seen". That has to do with the kids desire, the parents dedication, and a coach who will work on his/her behalf. That can be found in clubs all over the state.

Plus, I just like to see my slap count rise.

[offside]

There have been problems with ODP but I have also seen some merits as well.  And I can easily make the same statement about club soccer and high school soccer (there are problems and some merits).

Soccer in the United States is in real flux right now.  I believe the growing Academy program and their commitment to a 10 month season has real merit.  The problem is a lot of potentially great soccer players do not live close to an academy or can afford academy.

What I think is awesome is seeing a lot more legitimate soccer pick-up games with kids from elementary through high school.  My kids play pick-up soccer all the time.  This is critical.  When our young soccer players enjoy pick-up games like they enjoy pick-up basketball or football THEN we are making progress.

When you pay attention to the world's best soccer playing countries soccer is so much a part of their culture they play early and often.  They play a ton of unstructured soccer (pick-up).  This creates great technical players.  And they they also have great structured soccer (club) to learn and develop tactical knowledge and skill.

I really believe the US is making progress.  And there are more and more quality players in Arkansas. 

Finally, there are a many coaches from other countries who believe college soccer sets American players behind.  While most American kids will choose to play college soccer, you see more and more players choosing to go pro than go to college.  Part of this is the MLS finally getting their youth clubs developed enough to bring a player all the way to their First Team.  Some US players go straight to Scandinavian countries where it's easier to get a work permit to play pro.  AND clubs in Europe now have scouts in the United States.   

And how much soccer do our kids watch?  FOX Soccer and Goal TV are on in our home almost non-stop.

[GridironGeneral]

The answer is simple. Yes. Why would we not want to expose all kids to the game of Soccer, which is what HS Soccer does. If an athlete chooses not to play because it is beneath them, more power to them or should I say to their parents. HS Soccer, as well as other HS sports provide student/athletes the opportunity to enjoy school and participate with their peers in a unified cause.

[sevenof400]

...Plus, I just like to see my slap count rise.

That is usually quite easy to do around here!

...My issue is the suggestion, as has been proffered on this board, that they are the only ones training kids the "right way" and getting them into colleges..

In Central Arkansas, in the last two years the boys who have chosen to pursue college soccer have mostly been with the Rush.  But it should be noted that at various times through their club careers, all of the Central Arkansas based boys now playing college soccer also played for LRFC.  I do think it is easier for a player to be seen by college coaches if they play for Rush than LRFC because of the flexibility of teams and loaning of players for events located throughout the country.  One of the issues that LRFC faced (and still faces) is what to do with teams as they get older when a growing number of players no longer wish to pursue college playing opportunities. 

... Rush does not have a magic formula for "getting kids seen". That has to do with the kids desire, the parents dedication, and a coach who will work on his/her behalf. That can be found in clubs all over the state.

But I think it is fair to say the structure of Rush makes getting seen easier to attain. 

[hogbert]

i know that's what they sell, and respect your position, just disagree completely.

[offside]

Interesting story in the NY Times:  High School Players Forced to Choose in Soccer's New Way

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/sports/soccer/soccers-all-year-model-forces-high-school-players-to-choose.html?ref=soccer

[Havin Fun]

We need to stick with reality here in Arkansas.
High School Soccer provides an outlet for kids that want to play that have a time and distance issue with being in a club.
High School Soccer gives kids a chance to perform in front of their classmates and other folks that attend high school games to support the school.
High school soccer will be the last team experience of 98% more of the students who play. They will not play in college. It will be part of their "High School" experience.

As far as High School Versus Club or Academy or ODP in Arkansas goes!
ODP---There are very few kids that can play at the level needed to progress past a high school environment and into D1 programs. Kids like Alex Carter and William Hildago are at the top of the class. They are true talents. Much like the Forbess kid who learned his skills from Matt M. The guys that go around bad mouthing ODP are like most people that never get asked to dance so they hate dancing. I have been to the national meets and watched these kids, the speed of the game and the talent is above anything that we have around here with a few rare exceptions as mentioned above.
Club Soccer---High School Soccer is" hands down" a better environment for the kids. Go to a club game and look up and down the sidelines. Sometimes both parents some times only one. Poorly attended, very expensive and by the results we see on the national level, not working well here in Arkansas. The kids that are truly good would be noticed anywhere not just because they play club soccer in Arkansas. In fact, in Arkansas to get noticed you have to play club soccer in Dallas to get noticed. High school games are usually well attended and it exposes kids to their friends and classmates. Much higher level of attention.
Academy Soccer---this will certainly nail the coffin shut here in Arkansas. Forcing kids to choose between their school or year round soccer is a mistake. Their are a lot of talented kids that get out of club soccer because they want to be recognized athletically and they are very talented. Great soccer players are generally great athletes.The thrill of a full Gym at a basketball game or a packed stadium on Friday nights under the lights will always beat a few parents on the sidelines in their lawn-chairs.
In our state, high school soccer makes good sense for the vast majority of our kids. There will be more written in our local papers about the high school soccer playoffs in a few short weeks than will be written about any soccer club accomplishments or special players over a 3 year period. To the media and most parents of non-soccer athletes club soccer is non-existent.
For the very few exceptional kids in Arkansas everyone hopes you end up in the MLS or in Europe. Otherwise play high school soccer and be part of your community and school.
Its the best way to go.   

[Sportsaholic94]

So based off of your last statement, you are saying that if you are an exceptional play that has a chance to make it somewhere, then play club? But otherwise, stick with high school?

[Havin Fun]

I would do both realizing that Arkansas club soccer does not get the truly great ones anymore attention than they will get otherwise. If you are in Texas its a different story.
I would go one step farther and say that on  a national level I would migrate our developmental programs over to high school as these people are professional instructors that can support the total growth of the athlete. Seems to work in almost every other sport in the US. I don't think soccer should be any different just because it works differently in Europe. The true difference is Europe and other places in the world is the lack of choices the kids have. When all you do is keep a soccer ball on your foot from the time you can walk you will ultimately have better skills than kids that are juggling sports.
The best answer is a much stronger high school development program. 

[Rey Pygsterio]

The move to dump high-school soccer is another attempt by adults to put a sport above the individual (in this case teenagers).

Dumping high-school soccer would ruin it for a ton of kids just on the premise that we might produce a handful of better players.

I see no reason why high school can't coexist with academy or similar development programs.

Let the kids play high-school soccer in the spring and get all the benefits of playing for their school, and then the clubs/academies can take over in fall and summer.

[sevenof400]

I'll throw this out there for your consideration.  In this thread, we have mentioned academies but one of the issues with respect to academies is which model are we referring to?

The European academy model is one where a player signs with a club at a young age and the club then oversees both the academic and soccer (athletic) development of the player.  Players can be cut -released- (and often are).  To the best of my knowledge, there is no cost to the player to attend the academy.

As practiced in the U.S., the academy model is still a pay to play (or in this case, a pay to attend) model.  This is still closing off opportunities to our best soccer players who don't have the financial ability to afford to attend an academy. 

Before we consider the academy system as the answer to all issues, we need an large influx of academies based on the European model, not the American.   

[SirSoccer]

If a player is good enough, they will get scholarship for the american academy teams.  Then end all of academy teams here are to A)win, B)produce the best players and sign them to DIs or Pro, C) Make money (c is the biggest desire)
They will take a great player that can't afford it if it benefits the club enough.

[larryb]

...Plus, I just like to see my slap count rise.

That is usually quite easy to do around here!

...My issue is the suggestion, as has been proffered on this board, that they are the only ones training kids the "right way" and getting them into colleges..

In Central Arkansas, in the last two years the boys who have chosen to pursue college soccer have mostly been with the Rush.  But it should be noted that at various times through their club careers, all of the Central Arkansas based boys now playing college soccer also played for LRFC.  I do think it is easier for a player to be seen by college coaches if they play for Rush than LRFC because of the flexibility of teams and loaning of players for events located throughout the country.  One of the issues that LRFC faced (and still faces) is what to do with teams as they get older when a growing number of players no longer wish to pursue college playing opportunities. 

... Rush does not have a magic formula for "getting kids seen". That has to do with the kids desire, the parents dedication, and a coach who will work on his/her behalf. That can be found in clubs all over the state.

But I think it is fair to say the structure of Rush makes getting seen easier to attain.

Sevenof400 - who were/are the guys from Rush over  past two years that are playing college?  I know Westside 92 Boys had at least 7 go to college.  Of that team, most played with LRFC up until their senior year.

[Sportsaholic94]

Last year the players from the rush that went on to play college were:

Ben Bartnicke
Kyle Moore
Gregory Gandy
Mat Brockway
TJ Tapley

This years team has many players going to play in college.
Who all from the 92 west side team went to play other than John?

[LRfan]

Also, Reese Shaffer from Rush, came out last year and plays at Delta State. As far as I know, LRFC had Will Hidalgo and Madison Smith go on to play in college from last year's class.
Sevenof400 has 2 posts from last year that summarize Arkansas kids playing college soccer. Already there lists kids playing in state and Over there lists kids playing out of state. However, it lists their high school, not their club team, so you would have to know that if you wanted to compare how many kids were playing in college from a particular club in a given year. Still, he did a nice job of compiling info from multiple sources. 

Last year the players from the rush that went on to play college were:

Ben Bartnicke
Kyle Moore
Gregory Gandy
Mat Brockway
TJ Tapley

This years team has many players going to play in college.
Who all from the 92 west side team went to play other than John?