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Catholics To Boycott "The Da Vinci Code" movie

Started by -Painted Fan-, April 30, 2006, 02:39:38 am

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memphisguy

 Right now, my mind is focused on oxidation/reduction reactions, nuclear chemistry, and functional groups. Good heavens. Study hard and make us proud.
One more thing, very pleased you are involved with an on-campus Christian group, I was very involved in the Baptist Student Union at Memphis State, way back in the day. While those para-church groups are useful and needful (love the Navs and the Campus Crusaders as well as the Baptist Studen Union, although I don't think they are called that anymore) it still doesn't replace our involvement with a local church. Scripture says that Jesus is the groom and the church is His bridesmain and it is for the church for which He died.
Find a good church in your area, become accountable and you will be amazed at how you will grow and how God will use you.
Now go back and study oxi-moron reducing chemistry groups or whatever it is. You are smarter than me.

Guetz

If you read other books by Dan Brown, you will find that taking shots at the Catholic church is one of his typical plot elements.  Da Vinci Code was no different.  It is fiction, written by a man who may or may not have an interesting personal story in his life concerning the Catholic church resulting in his novelistic expressions of angst towards them. But he is an interesting writer and makes a good read.

If someone is so weak willed that they will draw their "facts" for Christianity from this book/movie, then they can also be drawn to the actual facts by being brought to church. 

Boss Man

Quote from: Derrek Lee on May 05, 2006, 01:21:40 am
Quote from: COWTOY on May 04, 2006, 06:49:47 pm
Quote from: Uncle Ivan on May 04, 2006, 06:38:59 pm
Baptists are mentioned frequently on there.

The page I looked at had Protestants and Catholics but no Baptists.

I ain't no stinkin' Protestant!

I do think that Mary is devine, but not worthy of my prayers. She was selected to give birth to the Son of God and the Savior of Mankind, and she gave that birth as a virgin. To be selected by God Himself, and to carry out such a miracle...if that's not devine, I don't know what is. However, all my prayers are directed one way...to God Himself.

Well this is how I look at it, have you ever made a prayer request? I'm sure you have and you are asking others to pray and help you with your problem. We don't exactly pray to her but we do, I mean we are in a sense making a prayer request to her. It's the same thing as askin a prayer request in church. Do you get what I'm saying?

ASU Rugby

Are there any other Lutherens on here besides me?

Now I dont understand what you mean by prayer request but in the Bible they prayed directly to God, so I dont know why we would do anything differentley.

Uncle Ivan

Quote from: Boss Man on May 04, 2006, 09:21:46 pmMary isn't divine? Mary isn't divine? She was the mother of Christ and she isn't divine. She Ascended to heaven and she isn't divine? You have got to be kidding me, are you just absolutely out of you mind. So suspect you think that God just randomly picked a female to carry his son and save the world.

I think your talking about Good Friday. We kiss a crucifix. We venerate the cross. We kiss the cross because of what it represents, the cross shows that we acknowledge that he suffered for us, that erasing original sin was small task. We don't worship it we are just paying respect. Do you kiss your wife? I hope so. Does that mean you are worshipping an idol or are you showing respect and love for what she had done for you?

You also bow to statues.  It may be in the image of whatever, but in the literal sense, you bow to statues.  That's idol worship.

Mary was a honorable, noble woman.  She is not a deity. 

And don't tell me Catholics don't pray to her and other saints.  She was a woman, nothing more.

jbell96

Quote from: MikeDiesel on April 30, 2006, 05:50:52 pm
Quote from: Derrek Lee on April 30, 2006, 01:52:35 pm
I just hope they don't divert the movie too far from the book. That will ruin it.

With Ron Howard and Tom Hanks, I can almost guarentee it'll be as close to the book as possible.

Mike are you going to see the movie?

mudturtle

Quote from: Boss Man on May 05, 2006, 04:17:59 pm
Well this is how I look at it, have you ever made a prayer request? I'm sure you have and you are asking others to pray and help you with your problem.

No.  I have never.  It isn't the way I was taught to pray

Boss Man

Quote from: Uncle Ivan on May 05, 2006, 04:28:55 pm
Quote from: Boss Man on May 04, 2006, 09:21:46 pmMary isn't divine? Mary isn't divine? She was the mother of Christ and she isn't divine. She Ascended to heaven and she isn't divine? You have got to be kidding me, are you just absolutely out of you mind. So suspect you think that God just randomly picked a female to carry his son and save the world.

I think your talking about Good Friday. We kiss a crucifix. We venerate the cross. We kiss the cross because of what it represents, the cross shows that we acknowledge that he suffered for us, that erasing original sin was small task. We don't worship it we are just paying respect. Do you kiss your wife? I hope so. Does that mean you are worshipping an idol or are you showing respect and love for what she had done for you?

You also bow to statues.  It may be in the image of whatever, but in the literal sense, you bow to statues.  That's idol worship.

Mary was a honorable, noble woman.  She is not a deity. 

And don't tell me Catholics don't pray to her and other saints.  She was a woman, nothing more.
We don't bow to statues. You ignoramous in no way shape or form. Yall are meaning to tell me that you have never said, " So and so please pray for them" or "Please keep so and so in your prayers"? Thats the same thing we do when we so called "Pray to Mary."

Guetz

Quote from: ASU Rugby Fan on May 05, 2006, 04:20:31 pm
Are there any other Lutherens on here besides me?

Now I dont understand what you mean by prayer request but in the Bible they prayed directly to God, so I dont know why we would do anything differentley.

Yes, my family and I are Lutheran.

Prayer requests:  asking others to pray for you or for someone else, a common practice among some denominations.  Technically it is intercession although the popular concept of intercession is the Catholic practice of asking members of the Communion of Saints, on earth or in Heaven, to intercede for themselves or others.  Protestant churches typically use intercession as a term for the living praying for the living.  There is a role in some Protestant churches known as an Intercessor or Prayer Warrior.  These are men and women who actively pray for others.

Interesting topic, praying directly to God.  I have heard it vehemently argued by some fundamentalists that since it says in the Bible that one must go through Christ, that all prayers to God must be directed to Christ.  While all acknowledge a triune God, this can appear to be some form of mandated intercession.  I thought that one of the points of the Reformation was that all Christians had the ability to pray directly to the Trinity instead of by asking intercession from an intermediary, whether that be the Pope, priest, saint or to a mandated singular aspect of the Trinity.

---------------------

For King James edification while upon break from his finals....

Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the Wittenberg Castle Church on October 31st, 1517.  They were rapidly translated into German, reproduced and within 2 weeks had been read throughout Germany and within two months, throughout Europe.

The First Act of Supremacy was in 1534, essentially splitting the Church of England from the Roman Catholic Church and establishing Henry VIII as "the only supreme head in earth of the Church in England." In Anglican traditions they date their church back at least to its first Archbishop, Saint Augustine of Canterbury, in the 6th century and even centuries earlier to the Roman occupation. Many Anglicans point out that Christian missionaries existed in the British lands from the 1st century, with the faith established at Glastonbury by Joseph of Arimathea.  But until 1534 they acknowledged the supremacy of Rome and aligned themselves with the Roman Catholic Church.

By the time that the First Act of Supremacy was made by the English Parliament, the Reformation nominally catalyzed by Luther's Theses was in full and violent swing throughout Europe due in no small measure to the use of the first printing presses to reproduce native language religious tracts and documents.  Ain't freedom of the press a great thing? (obscure puns intended)

Your statement, "Any part of Christianity that is not Catholic is Protestant," is not correct.  The following illustration should disabuse you of this notion.

               

-----------------------------

Mudturtle, I have to give MemphisGuy credit. <sigh> He is correct, the First Council of Nicaea in AD 325 did not establish the Biblical canon in use today.  This Council, however, was historically significant because it was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.  With the creation of the Nicene Creed, a precedent was established for subsequent general councils to create a statement of belief and canons which were intended to become orthodox for all Christians. It would serve to unify the Church and provide a clear guideline over disputed matters on what it meant to be a practicing Christian, a momentous event in the history of the Church and subsequent history of Europe.

42 years later, Athanasius in 367 listed a 22 book Old Testament and 27-book New Testament and 7 books not in the canon but to be read: Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobit, Didache, and the Pastor (probably Hermas). If you ignore the additional books to be read and exclusion of Esther from the canon, this list is the same as the modern Protestant canon and so Athanasius is often considered the father of the modern Protestant canon.

Despite this, revisions to the canon were contemplated and disputed even up into the 20th century.

And.... you are correct, there are more writings excluded than included.  It is interesting to note, as one reads the history of our modern day Biblical canon, the various books that were at one time or another considered heretical since somebody or another disagreed with them in part or in total, some books which are part of our accepted canon today.

There is not a doubt in my mind that the Bible, as we read it in English today, is very much a human document; collated, recollated, translated, retranslated, interpreted, edited, revised and otherwise tampered with during the last 2-3 thousand years from the various original writings in their original languages, all of which are non-extant (or if Dan Brown and others are to be believed, intensely guarded in secret Vatican archives) to the best I have been able to determine and thus unavailable to confirm or refute attributed meanings.  And even those original writings were transcriptions from fallible human memories of remembered events or oral histories.  There are errors and there are omissions but these do not invalidate the Bible or make its messages less important, they just make it a very extensive and historic human document which seeks to explain that which is greater than ourselves and providing a pathway towards achieving immortal grace.

Guetz

Quote from: mudturtle on May 05, 2006, 07:38:38 pm
Quote from: Boss Man on May 05, 2006, 04:17:59 pm
Well this is how I look at it, have you ever made a prayer request? I'm sure you have and you are asking others to pray and help you with your problem.

No.  I have never.  It isn't the way I was taught to pray

Neither have I, it was not what I was taught.

Boss Man

May 06, 2006, 01:14:55 pm #60 Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 01:18:13 pm by Boss Man
I see it all the time on here.

This is a prayer request topic right here: http://fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=49153.0
He's asking us to keep his dad in our prayers and this is the same thing Catholics do we ask Mary or any other saint or Patron saint to here our prayers and help whoever through a situation it's not idoltry!

mudturtle

Quote from: Boss Man on May 06, 2006, 01:14:55 pm
I see it all the time on here.

You are right.  Prayer requests are on here all the time, but only some people pray that way.

ASU Rugby

Quote from: Boss Man on May 06, 2006, 01:14:55 pm
I see it all the time on here.

This is a prayer request topic right here: http://fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=49153.0
He's asking us to keep his dad in our prayers and this is the same thing Catholics do we ask Mary or any other saint or Patron saint to here our prayers and help whoever through a situation it's not idoltry!

How are you talking to Mary

Chief_Osceola™

Quote from: Boss Man on May 06, 2006, 01:14:55 pm
I see it all the time on here.

This is a prayer request topic right here: http://fearlessfriday.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=49153.0
He's asking us to keep his dad in our prayers and this is the same thing Catholics do we ask Mary or any other saint or Patron saint to here our prayers and help whoever through a situation it's not idoltry!

I think the thought most people have is, "Why not just go to the source and ask the Lord for provision?"  And that piques my curiosity - why do Catholics pray to Mary and the saints?

Boss Man

May 07, 2006, 12:13:42 pm #64 Last Edit: May 07, 2006, 12:45:58 pm by Boss Man
Its hard to explain, we don't worship Mary or the Saints we raise prayers to them as well as God. But as for Uncle Ivans assessment that we worship statues and stuff is absurd. On that note our Priest explained it like this back when the Roman Catholic Church started most people were illiterate. The church had to use symbols to convey the message such as: incents, flowers, different color vestments, candles, and so on and so forth. This is why we use so many symbols to convey a message, not to worship which is so so so commonly misunderstood as idol worship but it's not. If you study the reasons behind some of these things then you wouldn't be so offended or un-understanding, if that's a word. I challenge some on here to not just accept their own faith as fact because quite frankly no one knows if there beliefs are fact but we all have faith that they are or we wouldn't believe them, but accept that your way of thinking is not the only way. That is all I ask and anyone can ask of you.

trackstar07

Quote from: Uncle Ivan on May 05, 2006, 04:28:55 pm

You also bow to statues. It may be in the image of whatever, but in the literal sense, you bow to statues. That's idol worship.

Mary was a honorable, noble woman. She is not a deity.

And don't tell me Catholics don't pray to her and other saints. She was a woman, nothing more.

we never said we dont pray to her. and we bow and (sp.?) genuflect to statues as a sign of RESPECT to Jesus. you cannot say "she was a woman, nothing" more because she was. do you honestly think God just picked a random individual to give birth to Jesus? boss man is very correct when he says that a lot of the things that we do is symbolic. of the people out there asking questions.. how many have actually researched before asking questions or even been to a catholic church?

ASU Rugby

Quote from: Boss Man on May 07, 2006, 12:13:42 pm
Its hard to explain, we don't worship Mary or the Saints we raise prayers to them as well as God. But as for Uncle Ivans assessment that we worship statues and stuff is absurd. On that note our Priest explained it like this back when the Roman Catholic Church started most people were illiterate. The church had to use symbols to convey the message such as: incents, flowers, different color vestments, candles, and so on and so forth. This is why we use so many symbols to convey a message, not to worship which is so so so commonly misunderstood as idol worship but it's not. If you study the reasons behind some of these things then you wouldn't be so offended or un-understanding, if that's a word. I challenge some on here to not just accept their own faith as fact because quite frankly no one knows if there beliefs are fact but we all have faith that they are or we wouldn't believe them, but accept that your way of thinking is not the only way. That is all I ask and anyone can ask of you.

But how can Mary hear your prayers?

Boss Man

Quote from: ASU Rugby Fan on May 07, 2006, 12:57:19 pm
Quote from: Boss Man on May 07, 2006, 12:13:42 pm
Its hard to explain, we don't worship Mary or the Saints we raise prayers to them as well as God. But as for Uncle Ivans assessment that we worship statues and stuff is absurd. On that note our Priest explained it like this back when the Roman Catholic Church started most people were illiterate. The church had to use symbols to convey the message such as: incents, flowers, different color vestments, candles, and so on and so forth. This is why we use so many symbols to convey a message, not to worship which is so so so commonly misunderstood as idol worship but it's not. If you study the reasons behind some of these things then you wouldn't be so offended or un-understanding, if that's a word. I challenge some on here to not just accept their own faith as fact because quite frankly no one knows if there beliefs are fact but we all have faith that they are or we wouldn't believe them, but accept that your way of thinking is not the only way. That is all I ask and anyone can ask of you.

But how can Mary hear your prayers?
How can anyone hear your prayers?

chrismurphy19

So how about that Da Vinci Code movie? How about getting the thread back on topic?

ASU Rugby

Quote from: Boss Man on May 07, 2006, 03:18:17 pm
Quote from: ASU Rugby Fan on May 07, 2006, 12:57:19 pm
Quote from: Boss Man on May 07, 2006, 12:13:42 pm
Its hard to explain, we don't worship Mary or the Saints we raise prayers to them as well as God. But as for Uncle Ivans assessment that we worship statues and stuff is absurd. On that note our Priest explained it like this back when the Roman Catholic Church started most people were illiterate. The church had to use symbols to convey the message such as: incents, flowers, different color vestments, candles, and so on and so forth. This is why we use so many symbols to convey a message, not to worship which is so so so commonly misunderstood as idol worship but it's not. If you study the reasons behind some of these things then you wouldn't be so offended or un-understanding, if that's a word. I challenge some on here to not just accept their own faith as fact because quite frankly no one knows if there beliefs are fact but we all have faith that they are or we wouldn't believe them, but accept that your way of thinking is not the only way. That is all I ask and anyone can ask of you.

But how can Mary hear your prayers?
How can anyone hear your prayers?

So Mary is on the same level as the trinity?


Boss Man

Didn't say that you asked how she "hears" our prayers and I asked how does anyone "hear" your prayers. You want me to say that she is on the same level as God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit, and that will never be heard from a knowledgable Catholic and won't be heard from me cause she isn't.

Uncle Ivan

Quote from: trackstar07 on May 07, 2006, 12:26:53 pmwe never said we dont pray to her. and we bow and (sp.?) genuflect to statues as a sign of RESPECT to Jesus.

Respect or not, in the literal sense, I've seen Catlicks kneeling before a statue.

That's idol worship, no other way about it.  My eyes didn't decieve me.

Not to mention, praying to Mary, praying to saints....now, I could be wrong, but doesn't the Bible say something about worshiping false gods?

I won't even get into all the recitation, but anyone that sits through a rosary knows what I'm talking about.

Boss Man

Quote from: Uncle Ivan on May 07, 2006, 09:17:03 pm
Quote from: trackstar07 on May 07, 2006, 12:26:53 pmwe never said we dont pray to her. and we bow and (sp.?) genuflect to statues as a sign of RESPECT to Jesus.

Respect or not, in the literal sense, I've seen Catlicks kneeling before a statue.

That's idol worship, no other way about it.  My eyes didn't decieve me.

Not to mention, praying to Mary, praying to saints....now, I could be wrong, but doesn't the Bible say something about worshiping false gods?

I won't even get into all the recitation, but anyone that sits through a rosary knows what I'm talking about.
First we don't WORSHIP statues to practice idol WORSHIP you have to actually WORSHIP.
Second your Catlicks expression shows your immaturity
Third Mary and Saints are not gods and once again we don't WORSHIP we raise prayers.
Fourth heres a little Rosary info for you
     * The Joyful Mysteries on Mondays and Thursdays.
    * The Sorrowful Mysteries on Tuesdays and Fridays.
    * The Glorious on Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sundays.
A whole Rosary is 50 prayers, there were originally 3 mysteries, as listed above. Each prayer accounts for one Psalm which accounts for 150 prayers, and there are 150 Psalms. That is the history behind the Rosary. The Hail Mary is composed of different lines:     
    Hail Mary,
    full of grace,
    the Lord is with you.

By those words of the angel God announced a divine favor. God would be with Mary. She would bring Jesus Christ into the world.

Over time the greeting given to Mary by her cousin Elizabeth, recorded in St. Luke, was added:

    Blessed are you among women
    and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

Finally by the 15th century, the remainder of the prayer appeared:

    Holy Mary, mother of God,
    pray for us sinners
    now and at the hour of our death.

The prayer calls upon Mary, who is full of grace and close to her Son, to intercede for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. With the disciple to whom Jesus entrusted her on Calvary when he said: "Behold your mother," we share her as mother. Mary will always bring Christ into our life. From the beginning she knew him; she witnessed his life, death and resurrection; will she not help us to know him and the mysteries of his life? We trust her to care for us. We can trust her with our needs.

Uncle Ivan

Oh, so raising prayers and praying to false gods aren't the same thing?  Riiight.

Say what you like, but bowing to statues is idol worship.  And, the whole recitation deal strikes me as cult-like.

If you've got one of the old Hootens books where they interview Tony Bua, pay attention to what he says about Catholicism and reading the Bible.

Guetz

Really going after the Catholics there, Uncle Ivan.  Been studying your KKK propoganda pamphlets again?

Uncle Ivan

Ah yes, the usual confusion of legit complaints as bigotry.

Everything I've brought up, I've seen and heard in person more than once or twice.  I can't dog Catholics too badly, since I have a relative who is a member of that church.

Nonetheless, you're smarter than that. 

Guetz

Quote from: Uncle Ivan on May 08, 2006, 06:19:05 am
Ah yes, the usual confusion of legit complaints as bigotry.

Everything I've brought up, I've seen and heard in person more than once or twice.  I can't dog Catholics too badly, since I have a relative who is a member of that church.

Nonetheless, you're smarter than that. 

Are they "legit" complaints?  No.  You have adherents of Catholic beliefs telling you that they are not worshiping a statue simply because in their faith in which they have been trained they kneel before them to pray.  They say the rosary, a mnemonic device they use to recite memorized prayers, prayers that can be said very sincerely even if they have been memorized.  You have memorized the Lord's Prayer, does it not mean anything when you say it by rote?  They kneel during portions of their service as a demonstration of their piety towards God, again also as they have been trained to do in their highly liturgical worship structure.

Those are things that they believe that they should do as Christians and they are no more right or wrong than the things that you believe that you should do as a Christian.  Uncle, the anti-Catholic things that you have been spewing on this and other threads certainly does smack of the kind of bigotry that I have heard from Klanners and read in their literature.  Personally I think that it is unbecoming of you, someone whose posts I typically respect.

Uncle Ivan

They are legit criticisms and critiques, regardless of how PC you care to act.  I read no such literature.  One doesn't have to if they've been to a mass or two.

Your post is no different from those who throw out accusations of racism when faced with any sort of criticism.

trackstar07

it doesnt make sense to call them legit if you have more than one catholic telling you that you are wrong. i mean, we grew up that way and would probably know more about our religion than you. youre not the first to try to prove catholics wrong nor will you be the last. but if u disagree with our religion.. then fine. but dont tell us that we are wrong or tell us that what we are doing is worshiping false idols.

Texarkana_Piggie

Quote from: King James on May 07, 2006, 03:36:00 pm
So how about that Da Vinci Code movie? How about getting the thread back on topic?

it starts may 19.  i can hardly wait to go see it.  may have to get a sitter and go that night.

ASU Rugby

The one thing that boggles my mind about Cathlocism is purgatory. Without trying to step on anybody`s toes, it seems like they just made it up themselves. Is the word purgatory even in the bible?

trackstar07

no but neither is "trinity" does that mean it doesnt exist?

ASU Rugby

Quote from: trackstar07 on May 08, 2006, 03:52:26 pm
no but neither is "trinity" does that mean it doesnt exist?

The trinity isnt directly called the trinity but you can find MANY bible passages supporting it. I have not saw anything at all in the bible at all about a third place where people go when they die, even though there are MANY places saying you either go to heaven or to heck.

Boss Man

Quote from: ASU Rugby Fan on May 08, 2006, 03:48:45 pm
The one thing that boggles my mind about Cathlocism is purgatory. Without trying to step on anybody`s toes, it seems like they just made it up themselves. Is the word purgatory even in the bible?
There are references, that I'll look for you, to purgatory. Purgatory is the place between Heaven and Earth that allows you to repent your sins and do you punishment before entering heaven. You don't stay there permenantly. It's only logical I mean do you deem yourself or anyone else on earth worthy of going straight to heaven?

ASU Rugby

We are never worthy of going to heaven, but we do. If you believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures, you go straight to heaven. I dont remember anywhere in the Bible where Jesus said that we had to go somewhere and be punished before we go to heaven. Purgatory dont sound much different than Earth.

Boss Man

"a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions."

The word "Purgatory" is not mentioned in the bible but the word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the bible either yet protestants and catholics alike believe in it. It is not important that the word "Purgatory" be mentioned in the bible.

Matt 5:25-26 says, " Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into PRISON.5:26. Amen I say to thee, THOU SHALT NO GO OUT FROM THENCE TILL THOU REPAY THE LAST FARTHING." Notice: This is part of the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus is telling the disciples first about the quality of souls of the just (the Beatitudes) and then goes on to describe the souls of the lost (v21-22)but then he speaks about the souls in "Prison". In context, He cannot be speaking about a physical prison where inmates stay, rather, it is Purgatory. Here's why: The Greek word here for "Prison" is "Phulake" or "Phulaken" (Strong's #5438).Notice too that the next verse says, "...THOU SHALT NO GO OUT FROM THENCE TILL THOU REPAY THE LAST FARTHING." So here you see the souls do eventually get out. Ok, now, go to 1 Pet 3:18-19 which says, "Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh,
but enlivened in the spirit,In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in PRISON:" This "Prison" is the same as the one in Matt 5 because the same Greek word "Phulaken" is used. Notice: Verse 18 speaks about Christ dead and then what? He goes and speaks to the souls in "Prison"! Catholic teaching doesn't include where Purgatory exists only that it does exist. Most verses tend to show it in the upper parts of heck. Some think it is like an ante-chamber of heaven. It's OK either way. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Robert Bellarmine are two who believed it is in heck. This isn't strange because we believe the Limbo of the Fathers (The Bosom of Abraham) was in heck (see Luke 16:22). When Jesus descended into heck, he took those souls (like Abraham,Moses, etc)out of the Bosom of Abraham and into heaven because this was when Christ opened the gates of heaven.

1 Cor 3:11-15 says, " For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus. 3:12. Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 3:13. Every man's work shall be manifest FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD shall declare it, and the FIRE shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 3:14. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 315. If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHAL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE." Notice: It's not just the works (gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble) that go through the fire but it says "HE" shall be saved by fire. Why? Because your works are attached to you so when they go through the fire so do you.



Maybe that'll help you. You seem to have an open mind ASU Rugby Fan.

mudturtle

Quote from: ASU Rugby Fan on May 08, 2006, 04:00:50 pm
We are never worthy of going to heaven, but we do. If you believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures, you go straight to heaven. I dont remember anywhere in the Bible where Jesus said that we had to go somewhere and be punished before we go to heaven. Purgatory dont sound much different than Earth.

Did Jesus go straight to Heaven?

Guetz

[wall-o-text=medium]

ASU Rugby Fan:  Boss Man provided you some of the references.  Here are some more.  Not being a Catholic, I have had to rely upon citations.

From the New Advent the following arguments are presented supporting the concept of purgatory.  While their arguments draw heavily from ecumenical councils and the Old Testament, only New Testament references are presented here:


Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

    "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved.


A more comprehensive listing of scriptural resources along with a more unbiased discussion can be found at ReligiousTolerance.org:

2 Maccabees 12:39-45 (in the Apocrypha recognized by the Roman Catholics), 1 Corinthians 3:15, Revelation 21:27, Psalm 141:8; Daniel 12:10; Micah 7:9; Zechariah 9:11; Matthew 5:26; Matthew 12:32 & 36; Luke 12:47-48; Philippians 2:10; Hebrews 12:22b; James 3:1; 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:18; 1 Peter 7:37; and Jude 23.  Passages which discuss "penitent mourning or concern for safe passage of the dead" are: Genesis 50:10; Numbers 20:29; Deuteronomy 34:8; 2 Maccabees 12:44-45; 1 Corinthians 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18;  2 Timothy 4:19. These have been used to imply the existence of Purgatory.

Bible passages which appear to oppose Purgatory:

*   Many conservative Protestants believe that various biblical passages on salvation indicate that a person would go to either heaven (if they were saved) or to heck (if they were not) after death. Purgatory would thus have no function. Some of those passages are:
*   Romans 5:18: "...by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
*   Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Paul appears to have believed that the unsaved would simply be annihilated and exist no more in any form; the saved would attain eternal life in heaven).
*   Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

However, it can be argued that these passages do not preclude the existence of Prugatory. One might argue that perhaps Heaven, the free gift from God, is not experienced immediately at death. There remains the possibility that the gift of heaven will be delayed until after a person is purified in Purgatory.

*   Others claim that Purgatory does not exist since the saved will avoid the wrath and condemnation of God:
*   Romans 5:9 states that: "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
*   John 5:24: "...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Again, it could be argued that this verse does not preclude Purgatory. One could believe that the punishment in Purgatory comes from the loving chastisement of God, not from his wrath or condemnation. Thus, believers would have to experience Purgatory.

*   Many of passages do seem to indicate that a saved person has already been totally forgiven his/her sins -- past, present and future. 1 John is particularly clear on this point. Purgatory would thus not be needed, because the believers have already had their sins wiped clean. A few of these passages are:
*   Romans 3:24: "...Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
*   Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."
*   1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..."
*   Titus 2:14: "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify onto himself a peculiar people..."
*   Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
*   1 John 1:7: "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
*   1 John 1:7: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness."
*   1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


There, now both sides of the issue can be argued with Biblical passages, much like many other issues (infant baptism, to name one recently discussed on FF).  This should be no surprise given the length, depth and breadth of subjects discussed in the Bible and its many various known and anonymous authors, collaters, translators and editors.  Any compendium of guidance is like this.  One only has to look at our legal codes or tax codes to see other examples of internal dichotomies and inconsistencies.

It is interesting to see the roots of Protestant disbelief in purgatory, which is concisely laid out in this Wikipedia citation:


Protestant churches largely reject explicit belief in the Catholic view of Purgatory. However, most do embrace the doctrine of glorification which carries a similar definition. Perhaps the largest reason Protestants chose not to agree with the Catholics is that Martin Luther's first attack on Roman Catholic theology was on the sale of indulgences and, through this, the concept of purgatory. Even today, Lutherans are forbidden to say prayers for people who have already died, as this is reserved to those who believe in a purgatory, as spelled out by Luther in Question No. 211 in his expanded Small Catechism:

    "We should pray for ourselves and for all other people, even for our enemies, but not for the souls of the dead."

Article 22 of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Anglican Church states that:

    "The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory...is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture; but rather repugnant to the word of God."

Protestant disbelief in "purgatory" stems also from the idea that the existence of a purgatory implies that Christ's blood sacrifice on the cross was insufficient to save humanity in whole and represents a human desire to perform some works that can "assist" them through into Heaven. Protestants believe that all those who have faith in Christ are justified freely by his grace and require no more purgation than the cleansing of Christ's blood taken on when a new Christian is clothed in Christ and born again through baptism. (Romans 3:21-26, Galatians 3, John 3). Catholics equate being "born again" with Baptism, and see salvation in terms of Jesus having appeased God on our behalf rather than seeing it in judicial terms. Their response to Protestants is to ask how -- if Jesus paid for all sins in a judicial manner rather than in a propitiatory manner -- God could send anyone to heck since doing so would require Him to punish twice for the same sins.

A difficulty arises though in that "Protestant" is something of a blanket term used to describe many denominations with a wide variety of views on most issues. Hence several protestant theologians and spiritual leaders (such as C. S. Lewis) have acknowledged the existence of an intermediate state between Earth and Heaven, persuaded by the argument that a period of cleansing and purification is necessary before one can enter Heaven and be in the presence of God. There are also those who equate various "times of testing", linked to theories the Rapture, with Purgatory. The extent to which these realms or periods can be equated with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory varies between different Protestant sects and theologians.

As 2 Maccabees is a deuterocanonical book, most Protestants consider it to be apocryphal, and do not consider that the other Scripture verses mentioned admit of a belief in Purgatory. Many Protestants claim that belief in Purgatory has been used, by unscrupulous priests if not by the Catholic Church itself, to terrify parishioners into donating money to fund Church projects, on the pretext that they might effectively buy their loved ones out of the torment of Purgatory. Many Catholics agree that the belief has occasionally been used to fleece the flock, but challenge the notion that the dogma is instrinsically and inseparably rooted in such motives. (See: History of Indulgences).


Further references:

How the Catholic church refutes Fundamentalist denials of purgatory:  read Purgatory in CatholicAnswers.com

A discussion about purgatory and a listing of all relevant Biblical passages:  read Purgatory in FishEaters.com

One final discussion that was interesting: How To Explain Purgatory To Protestants


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ASU Rugby

May 08, 2006, 06:23:18 pm #88 Last Edit: May 08, 2006, 06:30:16 pm by ASU Rugby Fan
Quote from: mudturtle on May 08, 2006, 05:38:12 pm
Quote from: ASU Rugby Fan on May 08, 2006, 04:00:50 pm
We are never worthy of going to heaven, but we do. If you believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures, you go straight to heaven. I dont remember anywhere in the Bible where Jesus said that we had to go somewhere and be punished before we go to heaven. Purgatory dont sound much different than Earth.

Did Jesus go straight to Heaven?

We are not Jesus

Thanks for all those explanations. I still dont believe in purgatory, but the Catholics also didnt pull it from thin air. I just believe is there was a purgetory Jesus would have directly told us about it. It also would have stated that Jesus went somewhere before descending into heck before after he was cruscified.

I have always taught that Purgatory was where Catholics said unbaptizied babies went.

Guetz

Quote from: ASU Rugby Fan on May 08, 2006, 06:23:18 pm
I just believe is there was a purgetory Jesus would have directly told us about it. It also would have stated that Jesus went somewhere before descending into heck before after he was cruscified.

^Sounds like an interpretation to me.  Hope you are not a literalist.  ;D

Absence of something in text does not disprove its existance or rightousness (nor does it prove it, either).

ASU Rugby

Quote from: Guetz on May 08, 2006, 07:14:16 pm
Quote from: ASU Rugby Fan on May 08, 2006, 06:23:18 pm
I just believe is there was a purgetory Jesus would have directly told us about it. It also would have stated that Jesus went somewhere before descending into heck before after he was cruscified.

^Sounds like an interpretation to me. Hope you are not a literalist. ;D

Absence of something in text does not disprove its existance or rightousness (nor does it prove it, either).

I just believe he would have told us. Jesus wouldnt have withholded something that substantial from us.

Texarkana_Piggie

May 08, 2006, 09:32:45 pm #91 Last Edit: May 08, 2006, 09:37:30 pm by Texarkana_Piggie
Quote from: ASU Rugby Fan on May 08, 2006, 03:48:45 pm
The one thing that boggles my mind about Cathlocism is purgatory.
Purgatory....ski resort near durango colorado.

sorry....i couldn't help it.

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