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The Classification realignment basketball really needs.

Started by Sweet Feet, March 04, 2019, 09:05:30 am

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Sweet Feet

This new classification for basketball is just confusing and doesn't make sense when you are used to 7A etc. If we combined 7A, 6A, and 5A into one, we could have a much better high school basketball experience. This is what the new "5A would look like with all 3 classes realigned by geography
5A Northwest
-   Bentonville
-   Bentonville West
-   Harrison
-   Huntsville
-   Mountain Home
-   Rogers
-   Rogers Heritage
-   Siloam Springs

5A West
-   Farmington
-   Fayetteville
-   Fort Smith Northside
-   Fort Smith Southside
-   Greenwood
-   Springdale
-   Springdale Har-Ber
-   Van Buren


5A North
-   Alma
-   Clarksville
-   Conway
-   Greenbrier
-   Maumelle
-   Morrilton
-   Russellville
-   Vilonia

5A Central
-   Little Rock Catholic
-   Little Rock Central
-   Little Rock Christian
-   Little Rock Hall
-   Little Rock Parkview
-   Little Rock Southwest
-   North Little Rock
-   Pulaski Academy

5A Southwest
-   Benton
-   Bryant
-   Dequeen
-   Hope
-   Hot Springs
-   Hot Springs Lakeside
-   Lake Hamilton
-   Texarkana


5A Southwest
-   Camden Fairview
-   El Dorado
-   Little Rock Mills
-   Magnolia
-   Pine Bluff
-   Sheridan
-   Watson Chapel
-   White Hall

5A Northeast
-   Batesville
-   Blytheville
-   Greene County Tech
-   Jonesboro
-   Nettleton
-   Paragould
-   Valley View
-   Wynne

5A East
-   Beebe
-   Cabot
-   Forrest City
-   Jacksonville
-   Marion
-   Searcy
-   Sylvan Hills
-   West Memphis

Now tell me there wouldn't be some good basketball, good intra-county conference rivalries, and an even better playoff field.

OB11

In the East and Northeast, switch Wynne and Batesville with Marion and West Memphis and I'm on board.

Coach DePriest, Sheridan

How about this twist (derived from Texas HS football):
Top 6 from each conference makes the playoffs (48 teams).  Top 16 of those in enrollment plays in 5A Div 1 Championship. Next 32 plays in 5A Div 2 Championship. You could even split it into 3 and have 3 16 team tournaments.  Bracket seeding done by a committee comprised of 1 rep from each conference.

OB11

Quote from: Coach DePriest, Shiloh Christian on March 04, 2019, 09:16:22 am
How about this twist (derived from Texas HS football):
Top 6 from each conference makes the playoffs (48 teams).  Top 16 of those in enrollment plays in 5A Div 1 Championship. Next 32 plays in 5A Div 2 Championship. You could even split it into 3 and have 3 16 team tournaments.  Bracket seeding done by a committee comprised of 1 rep from each conference.

Do they go off of the enrollment for that year only? Or a 3 year average (or something similar) like the AAA uses for classification?

croboostbusted

Girls basketball would just be mostly 7A girls dominant with a few years here and there where 5A teams had above average teams could compete. No need in schools competing against other schools that have 1000+ more students.

Coach DePriest, Sheridan

Quote from: OB11 on March 04, 2019, 09:27:49 am
Do they go off of the enrollment for that year only? Or a 3 year average (or something similar) like the AAA uses for classification?
From what I can gather, it appears they take 9-12 enrollment from the previous year.  Someone more familiar may correct me on that.

Rocket23

AAA uses enrollment for 9th, 10th, and 11th.  And I believe it for the year before.

JessieP

I think this makes a lot of sense, in basketball. That's why the AAA will never do it. In football that's a whole other animal. Does anyone really think the big private schools who excel in football would ever allow the AAA to do anything that creates a more level playing field? Give me a second, I'm laughing uncontrollably.....Ok, it's 2 hours later. The AAA making a move that may work against the privates schools? That's a good one, I needed a good laugh.

SouthpawSensation

March 04, 2019, 07:14:07 pm #8 Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 08:31:28 pm by SouthpawSensation
While the intentions are good, some of your suggestions would cause a travel nightmare and won't cut it ...
For example, you have Siloam Springs in a conference with Harrison, Mountain Home and Huntsville, and they would have to virtually drive past Springdale and Springdale Har-Ber to get there.
That's one of the things that the AAA greatly focused on during the latest reclassification cycle — not having schools driving through another conference just to get to their conference games.

Sweet Feet

Quote from: SouthpawSensation on March 04, 2019, 07:14:07 pm
While the intentions are good, some of your suggestions would cause a travel nightmare and won't cut it ...
For example, you have Siloam Springs in a conference with Harrison, Mountain Home and Huntsville, and they would have to virtually drive past Springdale and Springdale Har-Ber to get there.
That's one of the things that the AAA greatly focused on during the latest reclassification cycle — not having schools driving through another conference just to get to their conference games.

I definitely get what you are saying, but with SS, if you move them to the springdale conference, thats going to displace someone like Greenwood and make them travel further. Unless you swap SS with one of the Springdale schools. Harrison and Mountain Home unfortunately are spaced out from everyone, so someone is gonna travel regardless. But this alignment for SS definitely beats going to eldorado or lake hamilton. The Rogers and Bentonville schools are only 10-15 mins away and trips to Huntsville, Harrison, or MH would be a lot better than what they or their conference opponents in 6A have to travel.

SouthpawSensation

Quote from: Sweet Feet on March 04, 2019, 09:26:09 pm
I definitely get what you are saying, but with SS, if you move them to the springdale conference, thats going to displace someone like Greenwood and make them travel further. Unless you swap SS with one of the Springdale schools. Harrison and Mountain Home unfortunately are spaced out from everyone, so someone is gonna travel regardless. But this alignment for SS definitely beats going to eldorado or lake hamilton. The Rogers and Bentonville schools are only 10-15 mins away and trips to Huntsville, Harrison, or MH would be a lot better than what they or their conference opponents in 6A have to travel.
If your suggestion was to take place, allow me to do some modifications to these three conferences
5A Northwest
-   Bentonville
-   Bentonville West
-   Huntsville
-   Rogers
-   Rogers Heritage
-   Siloam Springs
-   Springdale Har-Ber (from 5A-West)
-   Springdale (from 5A-West)

5A West
-   Farmington
-   Fayetteville
-   Fort Smith Northside
-   Fort Smith Southside
-   Greenwood
-   Van Buren
-   Alma (from 5A-North)
-   Clarksville (from 5A-North)

5A North
-   Conway
-   Greenbrier
-   Maumelle
-   Morrilton
-   Russellville
-   Vilonia
-   Harrison (from 5A-Northwest)
-   Mountain Home (from 5A-Northwest)

With those moves, I've tightened up the Northwest and West conferences and cut travel down considerably. Harrison already plays Mountain Home and is familiar with trips to Vilonia, Greenbrier and Morrilton. As for Mountain Home, this sends them south instead of West like you had and is about the same amount of travel.

CageMonsterNWA

Looks like some fun match ups, and I like your logistics, but the small schools would just get massacred by the mammoth schools day in and day out.  While geography and logistics are important, fair competition has to be priority 1.

bbfb2016

11 of the schools listed are 4A, not sure if that matters to your discussion but just wanted to add that.

croboostbusted

Quote from: CageMonsterNWA on March 05, 2019, 07:12:38 am
Looks like some fun match ups, and I like your logistics, but the small schools would just get massacred by the mammoth schools day in and day out.  While geography and logistics are important, fair competition has to be priority 1.

This.

SouthpawSensation

Quote from: bbfb2016 on March 05, 2019, 08:52:14 am
11 of the schools listed are 4A, not sure if that matters to your discussion but just wanted to add that.
He is using the current football conference alignments.

Sweet Feet

Quote from: SouthpawSensation on March 05, 2019, 06:05:41 am
If your suggestion was to take place, allow me to do some modifications to these three conferences
5A Northwest
-   Bentonville
-   Bentonville West
-   Huntsville
-   Rogers
-   Rogers Heritage
-   Siloam Springs
-   Springdale Har-Ber (from 5A-West)
-   Springdale (from 5A-West)

5A West
-   Farmington
-   Fayetteville
-   Fort Smith Northside
-   Fort Smith Southside
-   Greenwood
-   Van Buren
-   Alma (from 5A-North)
-   Clarksville (from 5A-North)

5A North
-   Conway
-   Greenbrier
-   Maumelle
-   Morrilton
-   Russellville
-   Vilonia
-   Harrison (from 5A-Northwest)
-   Mountain Home (from 5A-Northwest)

With those moves, I've tightened up the Northwest and West conferences and cut travel down considerably. Harrison already plays Mountain Home and is familiar with trips to Vilonia, Greenbrier and Morrilton. As for Mountain Home, this sends them south instead of West like you had and is about the same amount of travel.
Hmm after looking at your set up, i think i like it. Harrison and MH are just so isolated so that can kinda throw things off. But love Alma (Crawford County showdown with Van Buren) and Clarksville being in the West. The Springdale schools in the NW makes sense and Siloam stays with its in-county counterparts. I guess i just wanted to keep the Battle of the Bone between Springdale and Fayetteville alive haha. But the logistics is indeed better overrall with that setup

future_coach®

Quote from: Coach DePriest, Shiloh Christian on March 04, 2019, 09:16:22 am
How about this twist (derived from Texas HS football):
Top 6 from each conference makes the playoffs (48 teams).  Top 16 of those in enrollment plays in 5A Div 1 Championship. Next 32 plays in 5A Div 2 Championship. You could even split it into 3 and have 3 16 team tournaments.  Bracket seeding done by a committee comprised of 1 rep from each conference.

I'm not so sure we'd like to see an entire season of Huntsville with an enrollment of around 520 competing with Springdale with an enrollment of 2400. Huntsville lost to Rogers early this season by 25 and I think that's about what you would see night in and night out. But in saying that, I do like the idea of what was brought up here of doing things like Texas. I think eventually the smaller school would catch up and things would begin to even out; in basketball. Football this isn't a great idea.

friscokid

Quote from: Coach DePriest, Shiloh Christian on March 04, 2019, 09:16:22 am
How about this twist (derived from Texas HS football):
Top 6 from each conference makes the playoffs (48 teams).  Top 16 of those in enrollment plays in 5A Div 1 Championship. Next 32 plays in 5A Div 2 Championship. You could even split it into 3 and have 3 16 team tournaments.  Bracket seeding done by a committee comprised of 1 rep from each conference.

If Arkansas really wanted to do it like Texas, you'd get away from this district, regional, state, state final mess where everyone gets a trophy for winning a game. End the regular season and go straight into the playoffs. The final four is settled in 11 calendar days (12 if you decide to play bi-district on a Monday).

Sweet Feet

Re-edited a few conferences to make traveling easier

I took the 7A, 6A and 5A, and realigned them into one major class 5A based on geography. This is what i got

5A Northwest
-   Bentonville
-   Bentonville West
-   Springdale
-   Huntsville
-   Springdale Har-Ber
-   Rogers
-   Rogers Heritage
-   Siloam Springs

5A West
-   Farmington
-   Fayetteville
-   Fort Smith Northside
-   Fort Smith Southside
-   Greenwood
-   Clarksville
-   Alma
-   Van Buren


5A North
-   Harrison
-   Mountain Home
-   Conway
-   Greenbrier
-   Maumelle
-   Morrilton
-   Russellville
-   Vilonia

5A Central
-   Little Rock Catholic
-   Little Rock Central
-   Little Rock Christian
-   Little Rock Hall
-   Little Rock Parkview
-   Little Rock Southwest
-   North Little Rock
-   Pulaski Academy

5A Southwest
-   Benton
-   Bryant
-   Dequeen
-   Hope
-   Hot Springs
-   Hot Springs Lakeside
-   Lake Hamilton
-   Texarkana


5A Southwest
-   Camden Fairview
-   El Dorado
-   Little Rock Mills
-   Magnolia
-   Pine Bluff
-   Sheridan
-   Watson Chapel
-   White Hall

5A Northeast
-       Marion
-   Blytheville
-   Greene County Tech
-   Jonesboro
-   Nettleton
-   Paragould
-   Valley View
-   West Memphis

5A East
-   Beebe
-   Cabot
-   Forrest City
-   Jacksonville
-   Batesville
-   Searcy
-   Sylvan Hills
-   Wynne

Sweet Feet

Just revisiting this old topic. This year in basketball, these conferences would be amazing.

sportsguy80

So I get where you're going with this proposal and kinda like it but in reality it won't happen. For one, it definitely wouldn't work for football because like someone said it would get pretty ugly in several games year in and year out. Secondly, they won't split up a conference with Fay/Bentonville/Springdale/Har-ber/BV West due to a lot of reasons. These schools and cities compete with each other on so many levels and a lot and I do mean a lot is investing in their high school sports. Finally, I don't see AAA doing like Texas and ever getting it right...

Bomber_Believer

Quote from: SouthpawSensation on March 05, 2019, 06:05:41 am
If your suggestion was to take place, allow me to do some modifications to these three conferences
5A Northwest
-   Bentonville
-   Bentonville West
-   Huntsville
-   Rogers
-   Rogers Heritage
-   Siloam Springs
-   Springdale Har-Ber (from 5A-West)
-   Springdale (from 5A-West)

5A West
-   Farmington
-   Fayetteville
-   Fort Smith Northside
-   Fort Smith Southside
-   Greenwood
-   Van Buren
-   Alma (from 5A-North)
-   Clarksville (from 5A-North)

5A North
-   Conway
-   Greenbrier
-   Maumelle
-   Morrilton
-   Russellville
-   Vilonia
-   Harrison (from 5A-Northwest)
-   Mountain Home (from 5A-Northwest)

With those moves, I've tightened up the Northwest and West conferences and cut travel down considerably. Harrison already plays Mountain Home and is familiar with trips to Vilonia, Greenbrier and Morrilton. As for Mountain Home, this sends them south instead of West like you had and is about the same amount of travel.

Have you ever traveled south from Mtn Home?  West is by far the better choice.  Hwy 62 to Harrison, and on to NWA is much better than Highway 5 South or 14 out of Yellville.

businesstron

Honestly I'd be good if they went the Oklahoma route and just combine the two largest classifications for Basketball  and keep them split for football. 

arenaboy10

Quote from: JessieP on March 04, 2019, 03:22:42 pm
I think this makes a lot of sense, in basketball. That's why the AAA will never do it. In football that's a whole other animal. Does anyone really think the big private schools who excel in football would ever allow the AAA to do anything that creates a more level playing field? Give me a second, I'm laughing uncontrollably.....Ok, it's 2 hours later. The AAA making a move that may work against the privates schools? That's a good one, I needed a good laugh.

AAA is a joke


Gabe H. Coud

The easiest and best solution would be for the AAA to "undo" the "Blended conference" situation, in which the AAA tried to make permanent the "6 classifications" for "Football" and "all other sports". 

So, revert back to the "Old Classification System" 1A-7A.  Which would mean that all sports would go back to the "Old way", the current "Football Alignment", and conferences and teams were more "evenly matched". 

Answer: Go back to Football alignment for all sports.

Now, the problem with it was because of Mountain Home, and their "travel schedule" and maybe a few other schools, in which Mountain Home threatened to sue the AAA about it.  However, Mountain Home is a quad-mire, as they are screwed no matter what on "Travel" and "Competition", as to face teams of similar size, they have to travel 2-3 hours.  But at the same time, they are 2+ times the size of schools in their region that could play them locally, but none of those teams would play them.  (Mountain home was to big and the bully).

So, the response from the AAA and under pressure of Mountain Home suing them was the "Blended Conference" situation.  In which this benefited the 6A schools, as the 6A schools could now compete against "Lower population" 5A schools. 

And this also appealed to the 1A and 2A basketball only schools - as the push/pressure was for all football to be re-aligned with basketball, but then the "Only basketball schools" realized they were lied to by the 7A and 6A "Pressure", as the only basketball schools are now facing playing teams "higher up in enrollment" at about a 2.5 ratio. 

The "2.5 ratio" is significant, as in all "Classifications for other sports", the top teams in that classification are about 2-2.5 times the enrollment of the bottom teams in that classification.  (the 6 classification system). 

Whereas, if it were the "Football classification", then it drops down to about a 1.6 to 1.85 ratio.  Which has been the "traditional" disparity or more even, ratio. 

Except, the top 32 schools (7A and 6A) had problems with travel or finding games.  So, the "blended solution" was to force smaller schools to "blend" and face bigger competition, to compete against the bigger schools. 

In other words, the top 32 schools dictated to all other 200+ schools how competition (games, conference alignments, state playoffs, etc) should be based. 

Again, solution:  All conferences should be re-aligned to the current Football Conferences.

Then you won't have a school competing against another school (in either conference or for State playoffs) that is 2.5 times their enrollment.


Coach DePriest, Sheridan

Where in the world did you get this 2.5 times their enrollment?  Outside of 1A, there isn't a conference in which the biggest team is more than twice as big as the smallest.

This is from this current cycle:

Excluding Private Schools

6A Largest: 2413
6A Smallest: 1393

5A Largest: 1241
5A Smallest: 669

4A Largest: 668
4A Smallest: 347

3A Largest: 345
3A Smallest: 204

2A Largest: 203
2A Smallest: 118

1A Largest: 118
1A Smallest: 30

The_Pioneer

Quote from: Gabe H. Coud on March 09, 2020, 11:52:56 pm
The easiest and best solution would be for the AAA to "undo" the "Blended conference" situation, in which the AAA tried to make permanent the "6 classifications" for "Football" and "all other sports". 

So, revert back to the "Old Classification System" 1A-7A.  Which would mean that all sports would go back to the "Old way", the current "Football Alignment", and conferences and teams were more "evenly matched". 

Answer: Go back to Football alignment for all sports.

Now, the problem with it was because of Mountain Home, and their "travel schedule" and maybe a few other schools, in which Mountain Home threatened to sue the AAA about it.  However, Mountain Home is a quad-mire, as they are screwed no matter what on "Travel" and "Competition", as to face teams of similar size, they have to travel 2-3 hours.  But at the same time, they are 2+ times the size of schools in their region that could play them locally, but none of those teams would play them.  (Mountain home was to big and the bully).

So, the response from the AAA and under pressure of Mountain Home suing them was the "Blended Conference" situation.  In which this benefited the 6A schools, as the 6A schools could now compete against "Lower population" 5A schools. 

And this also appealed to the 1A and 2A basketball only schools - as the push/pressure was for all football to be re-aligned with basketball, but then the "Only basketball schools" realized they were lied to by the 7A and 6A "Pressure", as the only basketball schools are now facing playing teams "higher up in enrollment" at about a 2.5 ratio. 

The "2.5 ratio" is significant, as in all "Classifications for other sports", the top teams in that classification are about 2-2.5 times the enrollment of the bottom teams in that classification.  (the 6 classification system). 

Whereas, if it were the "Football classification", then it drops down to about a 1.6 to 1.85 ratio.  Which has been the "traditional" disparity or more even, ratio. 

Except, the top 32 schools (7A and 6A) had problems with travel or finding games.  So, the "blended solution" was to force smaller schools to "blend" and face bigger competition, to compete against the bigger schools. 

In other words, the top 32 schools dictated to all other 200+ schools how competition (games, conference alignments, state playoffs, etc) should be based. 

Again, solution:  All conferences should be re-aligned to the current Football Conferences.

Then you won't have a school competing against another school (in either conference or for State playoffs) that is 2.5 times their enrollment.



We'll play them anytime. 

Gabe H. Coud

Coach DePriest, thank you for responding.

Firstly, I hope that you can accept that your numbers were a mistake, as you quoted 2018-2020 numbers (the previous cycle). 

Secondly, that I am trying to update and include the numbers from the 2020-2022 cycle. 

Thirdly, to those that look at this, my argument is not about "Football".  As the AAA "alignment" for football would be better for "All other sports". 

Fourthly, My "Thesis/Hypothesis" is that the AAA should "Revert back" to using the "Football" classification for "All Sports", and abandon this "Blended Conferences" have now become permanent and/or created a "top heavy competitive edge" in "all other sports", as the "ratio's increased" which resulted in a "trickle down" (top heavy) situation, in which teams are now forced by the AAA to compete against teams "Doubling/2.0" times their size.

Yes, I was wrong on my 2.5 calculation.  However, what I am not wrong about is that the AAA, was in error in forcing "Blended Conferences" to become permanent for "all other sports". 

I am giving enrollment and numbers (2020-2022), and making a reasonable argument, that the "Football Classification model" has the best ratio, for "All Sports to be competitive", based on school size.

In which the AAA forcing the "Blended Conferences/Top Heavy" has created an increase in the ratio of smallest competing against biggest schools in "all other sports" classifications.
I have not included any "Private Schools" in this determination.  Which was one of your considerations in your post. 

Lastly, this is a post, to support a position, hypothesis, theory, that the "Old way" the AAA used to make classification and conferences, was more competitive as it was not "top heavy".  Meaning that schools competed against schools more their "same size", rather than forcing schools to compete against schools almost twice or more their size.

I will also add that the "blended conference" and "Travel Issue" was because of the increase in "Fuel Costs for Traveling".  But at this state of time, the cost of "Oil/Gas and Transportation costs" are down compared to 6-8 years ago, which is when School Districts were "worried about the increase in Transportation costs and "Travel expenses"".  In which the outrageous increase in Oil, Gas, and Fuel, made districts become conscientious of "Travel Expenses". 

Football                 Ratio      All other sports         Ratio

7A    Biggest – 2476      1.75      6A   Biggest    (same, so doesn't matter)
   Smallest – 1410

6A   Biggest – 1362      1.57      5A   Biggest – 1362      1.99
   Smallest – 864               Smallest – 684

5A   Biggest – 841.67   1.73      4A   Biggest – 641.33   1.86
   Smallest – 484.67            Smallest – 343

4A   Biggest – 476.33   1.62      3A   Biggest – 329      1.68
   Smallest – 293               Smallest – 195.67

3A   Biggest – 286.67   1.57      2A   Biggest – 195.33   1.65            
        Smallest – 182.67            Smallest – 117.67

2A   Biggest – 180.33   2.62      1A   Biggest – 117.33   1.74
   Smallest – 68.67            Smallest – 67 (Western Grove)   

1A would have to be considered differently and as an example, I will revert to the 2018-2020 numbers, (which would give the most accurate numbers) as it would have to include relative data on 2A as well.

   (Football from 2018 – 2020)      (Other sports from 2018-2020)

2A    Biggest – 189.33   2.5      2A -    Biggest – 203         1.71
   Smallest – 75.67            Smallest – 118.67

1A   Biggest – 118      1.55      1A   Biggest – 125.67      2.02
   Smallest – 75.67            Smallest – 62 (Emerson High School)

http://members.ahsaa.org/public/userfiles/Admin/20-22_OS_Class.pdf
http://members.ahsaa.org/public/userfiles/Admin/2018-2020Classication.pdf
http://members.ahsaa.org/public/userfiles/18-20Reclass-OtherSports.pdf
http://members.ahsaa.org/public/userfiles/Admin/20-22_FB_Class.pdf

So, with all of those numbers, data, and information.  It is a "reasonable conclusion" that the "Football Conferences and Alignment" would best serve the state of Arkansas for all High School Sports, as it creates the "less disparity" (Difference) in


Now, from my understanding of TX football, the UIL (TX governing body for athletics), did create a "more competitive" situation as far as "Playoffs" go.  They created a situation in which you compete "Locally" against conference opponents "comparable" to your size.  This creates the "Conferences". 

But then, in certain classification for "Playoffs", based on your "conference record", you had to play either "Bi-District game" (playoff game) against that "Classification 'Big or Small School'".  In which this "Bi District" game determined your path to a State Championship. 

Based on conference record, and school size, you would be Matched up against similar schools (big or small) and this was State wide.  So, you never knew anything until the last 2-3 weeks, unless you were a "small school" or the "biggest school" in your classification.  However, it created better matches based on "school size".

Here's an example:
 
in 5A East Football, you have Batesville, now Brookland (moving up), Forrest City, GCT, Nettleton, Paragould, Valley View, Wynne. 

However, in "All other sports", you have a "Split" in which 5A now consists of GCT, Nettleton, Paragould v. 6A football schools Jonesboro, Marion, Mountain Home, Searcy, and West Memphis.  I think Batesville now moves up in "all other sports" to replace Mountan Home.
So, that bumps down to Brookland, Blytheville, Forrest City, Valley Vies facing other "football 4A schools" in 4A. 


ricepig

Or we could just leave it as it is. The biggest problem with Arkansas sports, is there are too many school districts, unfortunately, some rural areas make it impossible to consolidate them into bigger ones. The school districts make the decisions on the classification sizes, so, until they decide to do something different.

As to the blended conferences, in the classes below 6A and 5A, don't they have conference tournaments to decide who goes on to state?

hsindian

Quote from: ricepig on March 11, 2020, 07:03:41 am
Or we could just leave it as it is. The biggest problem with Arkansas sports, is there are too many school districts, unfortunately, some rural areas make it impossible to consolidate them into bigger ones. The school districts make the decisions on the classification sizes, so, until they decide to do something different.

As to the blended conferences, in the classes below 6A and 5A, don't they have conference tournaments to decide who goes on to state?
Most of the 4A and smaller have a conference tournament. Only one that I can think of that doesn't is the 4A with mills, PA, Estem and those schools. They use round robin finish to determine regional seeding I think.

Coach DePriest, Sheridan

Gabe - I'm not arguing one way or another.  I just wanted to be sure the facts were not misrepresented. 


beach bum

March 11, 2020, 11:03:17 am #32 Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 11:05:16 am by beach bum
Quote from: hsindian on March 11, 2020, 09:03:27 am
Most of the 4A and smaller have a conference tournament. Only one that I can think of that doesn't is the 4A with mills, PA, Estem and those schools. They use round robin finish to determine regional seeding I think.

I wish all conferences would get rid of the district tournament and regionals in 1A-4A.... Just use the same format as 5A and 6A. Your body of work over 14 or 16 games should matter more than 1 game at a neutral site.

People complained about the bigger blended conferences because it didn't allow for enough non conference games. Well take out district and regionals and you are removing 5 games for some teams. Just add those at the beginning of the year and schedule who you see fit. Then you can have 8, 9, or 10 team conferences across the board.

Coach DePriest, Sheridan

Quote from: beach bum on March 11, 2020, 11:03:17 am
I wish all conferences would get rid of the district tournament and regionals in 1A-4A.... Just use the same format as 5A and 6A. Your body of work over 14 or 16 games should matter more than 1 game at a neutral site.

People complained about the bigger blended conferences because it didn't allow for enough non conference games. Well take out district and regionals and you are removing 5 games for some teams. Just add those at the beginning of the year and schedule who you see fit. Then you can have 8, 9, or 10 team conferences across the board.
Regional tournaments do not make sense.  They basically serve the same purpose as a first round state tournament game...eliminate half the teams.

beach bum

March 12, 2020, 08:51:02 am #34 Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 10:22:58 am by beach bum
Quote from: Coach DePriest, Shiloh Christian on March 12, 2020, 08:10:10 am
Regional tournaments do not make sense.  They basically serve the same purpose as a first round state tournament game...eliminate half the teams.

I get what you are saying, but I wish they would just go top 4 in basketball and baseball and start at a 24 team state with a balanced bracket in 4A. For example, PA probably could have won the North Region on a good run, yet they went out in round 1 of the East Region when maybe they might be the 5th or 6th best team in 4A boys this year. They might even be better than that, heck didn't they beat ESTEM twice and win at Mills even? Instead of having regionals just go round 1 of state where some years 1-4A plays 3-4A or other conferences instead of 4-4A every year like regionals. Then you don't have to even play semi's and 3rd place games of regionals either. I have never liked regionals because the unbalanced nature. Especially this year they handed two quarterfinal spots to the North Region  when in reality were they really even top 8 teams? They got there by beating really down 1-4A teams in regionals.

Gabe H. Coud

Quote from: Coach DePriest, Shiloh Christian on March 12, 2020, 08:10:10 am
Regional tournaments do not make sense.  They basically serve the same purpose as a first round state tournament game...eliminate half the teams.

This in a way, leads to my "Theory", that the "Football classification" system is more evenly balanced and would serve the state of Arkansas better, than what is now present.

As I previously posted/replied, the "Ratio" of small schools to bigger schools increased with the "current alignment".  I gave numbers as facts. 

So, now let's compare apples to apples, so to speak.

As you said, the "Regional tournaments do not make sense.  They basically serve the same purpose as a first round state tournament game...eliminate half the teams".  This is true, but it is the way it is, because of the AAA's disproportionate view of competition.  Also, this serves the AAA view of having "a regional tournament - based on how you finished in conference".  In which "No preference" is given to the "conference champion", as it is a do or die situation:  Win and go on.  Winner takes all, etc.  And that's how basketball has done it forever. 

However, if basketball were to change and go to the "Football Model", then there wouldn't be "Regional games or tournaments", as Playoff week 1 in the "football model" takes care of all of that, and Conferences are seeded and played with "natural selection".  1 v. 8, 2 v. 7, 3 v. 6, 4 v. 5, etc. 

But, the "Regional Concept" is over rated and makes it a "win 1 game" to advance to the playoffs, that doesn't consider or reward you for winning your conference and then immediately playing the next conference match up.

I hope all of this makes sense. 

Again, my "theory" is that the "football classification playoff system" is more fair and balanced (for 'all sports'), and has a reduced "ratio" of "Upper School Enrollment" playing "Lesser School enrollment". 

And this is not just limited to football and basketball, but it also affects Volleyball, Baseball, and Softball, as all of these 1-4 "classifications" that have to do "regional tournaments" to advance to the "State Tournament" as well.   

So, imagine if classifications 1-7 were to utilize the "Football System", and eliminated the "regional's".   

Would the "football system/model" not be better for all schools, and all classifications? 

On another note, perhaps someone can also look and do a "compare and contrast" over the past few years.  Since the AAA has gone to this "blended" becoming "top Heavy" in which the "Ratio" increased.

How many of the "bigger schools" in the classification have won the "State Championship" against a smaller school, that would be in a lower classification if they utilized the "football model"? 

For example:  How many 6A football schools have won conference championships versus 5A schools (because of 'blended becoming permanent')?  In other words, 6A schools such as West Memphis, Marion, Jonesboro, winning conference/district against 5A schools such as Nettleton, GCT, Paragould, etc.  How many 5A schools such as Valley view, Blytheville, Forrest City, have won conference championships versus 4A schools? 

So how has this current "classification system" for "all other sports" not created a "top heavy advantage". 


Gabe H. Coud

So I guess there is no real interest in my "Theory", that the "Football classification" system is more evenly balanced and would serve the state of Arkansas better, than what is now present.

As I previously posted/replied, the "Ratio" of small schools to bigger schools increased with the "current alignment".  I gave numbers as facts, in which the "football model" was more evenly based.  And the current "Conference alignment" for "all other sports" is "Top Heavy" and/or favors "traditional 6A schools competing againts 5A, traditional 5A schools competing against 4A school, traditional 4A schools competing against 3A", and so forth. 

Whereas, the "Football model" would be more evenly balanced for "ALL Sports":  Basketball, Volleyball, Track, Baseball, Softball, etc.

Sweet Feet

Quote from: Gabe H. Coud on March 22, 2020, 01:37:55 am
So I guess there is no real interest in my "Theory", that the "Football classification" system is more evenly balanced and would serve the state of Arkansas better, than what is now present.

As I previously posted/replied, the "Ratio" of small schools to bigger schools increased with the "current alignment".  I gave numbers as facts, in which the "football model" was more evenly based.  And the current "Conference alignment" for "all other sports" is "Top Heavy" and/or favors "traditional 6A schools competing againts 5A, traditional 5A schools competing against 4A school, traditional 4A schools competing against 3A", and so forth. 

Whereas, the "Football model" would be more evenly balanced for "ALL Sports":  Basketball, Volleyball, Track, Baseball, Softball, etc.
Football needs to go back to having 32 teams in its highest class. In other words, recombine the 7a and 6a.

In terms of fairness, i would argue that football would benefit from taking Basketball's alignment. There isn't that much of a dropoff between the 6a and 5a and in some years, it's the 5a that has the better teams. Not to mention travel would be so much easier on the schools and be reduced to the point where Greenwood and Siloam Springs won't have to travel all the way to El Dorado for a conference game. They could play Russellville, Van Buren, Clarksville, Alma, etc. Meanwhile El Dorado and Pine Bluff would stay down south and play against Watson Chapel, White Hall, Sheridan, and Fairview. All of the east would have their eastern teams.

beach bum

Quote from: Sweet Feet on March 24, 2020, 11:15:28 pm
Football needs to go back to having 32 teams in its highest class. In other words, recombine the 7a and 6a.

In terms of fairness, i would argue that football would benefit from taking Basketball's alignment. There isn't that much of a dropoff between the 6a and 5a and in some years, it's the 5a that has the better teams. Not to mention travel would be so much easier on the schools and be reduced to the point where Greenwood and Siloam Springs won't have to travel all the way to El Dorado for a conference game. They could play Russellville, Van Buren, Clarksville, Alma, etc. Meanwhile El Dorado and Pine Bluff would stay down south and play against Watson Chapel, White Hall, Sheridan, and Fairview. All of the east would have their eastern teams.

I agree that football actually needs the basketball set up as well because 5A/6A is pretty even. It would also help 2A have a more solid classification with more depth in football. With teams dropping programs or going 8 man the basketball set up would most help 5A/6A and 2A. 3A and 4A are fairly solid classifications right now luckily in football.

Sweet Feet

Quote from: beach bum on March 25, 2020, 10:32:49 am
I agree that football actually needs the basketball set up as well because 5A/6A is pretty even. It would also help 2A have a more solid classification with more depth in football. With teams dropping programs or going 8 man the basketball set up would most help 5A/6A and 2A. 3A and 4A are fairly solid classifications right now luckily in football.
I agree. 2A needs a little more stability since teams are dropping to 6man. Give it 5 years, there may be a shift of 3a teams to 2a to compensate for the 2a teams all dropping to 8 man.

Trojan_rep

Quote from: JessieP on March 04, 2019, 03:22:42 pm
I think this makes a lot of sense, in basketball. That's why the AAA will never do it. In football that's a whole other animal. Does anyone really think the big private schools who excel in football would ever allow the AAA to do anything that creates a more level playing field? Give me a second, I'm laughing uncontrollably.....Ok, it's 2 hours later. The AAA making a move that may work against the privates schools? That's a good one, I needed a good laugh.
Tell Subiaco Academy that lol

Sweet Feet

With all this Covid stuff, this may be the format Basketball needs to keep from spreading it.

Missco

Pretty much every state does  as Arkansas is doing. It is impossible to keep football and basketball conferences the same for the mere fact so many 2A and 3A schoils are basketball only. Heck, Arkansas could get by with 5 basketball classes and probably 4. 6 is way to many. Regionals serve zero purpose. Just have to eliminatiin games at the state tournament.

Sweet Feet

how do you guys think this wouldve turned out this year?

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