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2017 4A Boys State Tournament Final: Dardanelle 6, Warren 1

Started by sevenof400, May 07, 2017, 10:16:55 am

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MDXPHD


MDXPHD

Not sure what happened, but Episcopal keeper just got a red for saying something to a Warren player. Warren player pointed at him first, then it escalated. Had to be something that was said.

Edit: the Warren player just got ejected too. So reds for both.

MDXPHD

Episcopal scores. 2-1 Warren with 13:48 left.

The Warren player that was ejected was a very fast forward. It may hurt them. Number 10 maybe?

MDXPHD

Number 7 answers just a few seconds later. 3-1 with 13:23 left.

chaoslord

Quote from: MDXPHD on May 13, 2017, 01:32:04 pm
Episcopal scores. 2-1 Warren with 13:48 left.

The Warren player that was ejected was a very fast forward. It may hurt them. Number 10 maybe?

Could have a big impact next week too, although still a lot of game to get through currently

AirWarren


MDXPHD


Jack1990


MDXPHD

Episcopal scores late. 4-2 Warren is the final.

I have things to do so I can't update the girls games. Good luck to Warren and Dardanelle. Should be a good game, but if 10 is out for Warren I'm not sure they have the ability to keep up with Dardanelles pace.

Jack1990


AirWarren


AirWarren

Warren lost to Dardanelle 2-1 earlier in the year I believe.

Let's see if Warren can finish this.

Romeo


The Coach

Quote from: AirWarren on May 13, 2017, 02:27:27 pm
Warren lost to Dardanelle 2-1 earlier in the year I believe.

Let's see if Warren can finish this.

Dardanelle won 1-0 at Burns Park in early March. Should be another great game between 2 very solid programs!! A lot respect between these 2 teams!!

SportsDad

Quote from: AirWarren on May 13, 2017, 02:24:31 pm
Why the ejection?
Good question....

Everyone that was at the game on both sides are dumbfounded as to why both players did not get yellows.... the coaches, the fans, even other refs... There was absolutely no reason to eject either player. I have NEVER seen a player get ejected for arguing with each other. 

chaoslord

If it was for arguing, they were likely swearing at each other, then. Taunting is the other thing that comes to mind

Romeo

Mondragon's ejection is going to hurt. He won't be able to play next week.

AirWarren

Quote from: Romeo on May 13, 2017, 08:26:55 pm
Mondragon's ejection is going to hurt. He won't be able to play next week.

Next man up. Let's go jacks!

Mijally2

Quote from: SportsDad on May 13, 2017, 08:18:25 pm
Good question....

Everyone that was at the game on both sides are dumbfounded as to why both players did not get yellows.... the coaches, the fans, even other refs... There was absolutely no reason to eject either player. I have NEVER seen a player get ejected for arguing with each other. The kicker to all of this is that same official was involved in the game between the two teams last week that saw the ejection of a player and the coach from Warren.
Another example of an official lacking the refereeing skills to handle the game from start to finish so they have to eject players to make up for their incompetency. 

sevenof400

Quote from: Mijally2 on May 14, 2017, 10:47:20 am
Another example of an official lacking the refereeing skills to handle the game from start to finish so they have to eject players to make up for their incompetency.

Players CAN and SHOULD get ejecting for arguing with each other if serious enough language is used - those players should be gone. 

I think it more likely that a player (or players) lost their own self-control and created a situation from which the referee had no option.  If (and I emphasize the if here) the players were cussing and taunting each other, what would you have the referee do? 

The Coach

This particular ref goes ABOVE and BEYOND making the match about him rather then the kids. He's been this way in every match I've ever seen him officiate.

Mijally2

I thought the rules were:  Yellow card first. Then red card?  But as I've personally experienced with refs some do whatever they want with no accountability. Some yell at the fans in the stands during the game, yell and try to embarrass players, etc.  They seemed kinda angry they have to ref the game and it shows.  But some of them are exceptional. Our game with Batesville was handled by an excellent ref.

SportsDad

Quote from: The Coach on May 14, 2017, 11:37:38 am
This particular ref goes ABOVE and BEYOND making the march about him rather then the kids. He's been this way in every match I've ever seen him officiate.
100% AGREE
There was absolutely no reason to red card those boys... yellow first, then red.

chaoslord

Quote from: Mijally2 on May 14, 2017, 12:10:03 pm
I thought the rules were:  Yellow card first. Then red card? 

Incidental use of vulgar or profane language is a caution but if it became directed at an opponent it can and should become a send off. This has been emphasized at basically every HS meeting I've been to. The powers that be really don't want foul language a) directed at anyone or b) loud enough so that folks in the stands can hear it.

It's unfortunate that the coaches don't know what the send offs were for. I am fairly confident that the referee is supposed to inform the coach of the reason but I don't have a rule reference for that. However, I'll admit I'm guilty of not going over when it's 1000% obvious why a player is getting a card, such as after a real bad tackle or a very public display of dissent. When it sounds like it came from a bunch of confusion, though, a quick trip over and  "Hey coach, send off for XYZ" should happen. Doesn't need to be a long conversation but the coaches should know. They deserve that not only from a "I need to manage this game" perspective but also from a team values perspective. I know in my playing days if I had gotten sent off for swearing at an opponent, my coach would have had a real long talk with me and I would have missed more games than just my suspension until I could demonstrate that my character was better than doing that again.

I wasn't at 4A playoffs, don't know who did the game in question, and don't know what the send offs were for. I'll ask around and see what I can find out but I really hope the answer comes back to be foul language/taunting. Would be very sad to find out that these cards were avoidable.

SportsDad

Quote from: chaoslord on May 14, 2017, 12:48:47 pm
Incidental use of vulgar or profane language is a caution but if it became directed at an opponent it can and should become a send off. This has been emphasized at basically every HS meeting I've been to. The powers that be really don't want foul language a) directed at anyone or b) loud enough so that folks in the stands can hear it.

It's unfortunate that the coaches don't know what the send offs were for. I am fairly confident that the referee is supposed to inform the coach of the reason but I don't have a rule reference for that. However, I'll admit I'm guilty of not going over when it's 1000% obvious why a player is getting a card, such as after a real bad tackle or a very public display of dissent. When it sounds like it came from a bunch of confusion, though, a quick trip over and  "Hey coach, send off for XYZ" should happen. Doesn't need to be a long conversation but the coaches should know. They deserve that not only from a "I need to manage this game" perspective but also from a team values perspective. I know in my playing days if I had gotten sent off for swearing at an opponent, my coach would have had a real long talk with me and I would have missed more games than just my suspension until I could demonstrate that my character was better than doing that again.

I wasn't at 4A playoffs, don't know who did the game in question, and don't know what the send offs were for. I'll ask around and see what I can find out but I really hope the answer comes back to be foul language/taunting. Would be very sad to find out that these cards were avoidable.
The coaches were not told what was said...nor did the refs stay around for the aftergame handshake.... they took off running to the locker room. Both coaches tried to get an explanation and were threatened with their own red cards...  Add in the fact that it was a semi-final game, and you have the recipe for disaster with everyone left wondering what just happened.

Mijally2

The AAA can regulate the games and make up bogus soccer rules any way they want.  That's why the sport is not and will never be legit to the fans of the state as a whole. Refs have way too much power to influence the outcome of the game.  AAA, who knows nothing and doesn't care about soccer do whatever they want with no accountability.  They made up rules that jacked up the 4a finals because they believe their officials can't handle the situation.

chaoslord

Quote from: SportsDad on May 14, 2017, 01:15:37 pm
The coaches were not told what was said...nor did the refs stay around for the aftergame handshake.... they took off running to the locker room. Both coaches tried to get an explanation and were threatened with their own red cards... just a bad job of the officials handling the entire situation all around. Add in the fact that it was a semi-final game, and you have the recipe for disaster with everyone left wondering what just happened.

The refs leaving after the game without sticking around for handshakes is honestly what we're supposed to do. Obviously it doesn't happen a lot so it looks bad when it does occur but there's just nothing for us after the game has concluded. Best case, everything goes well, worst case someone comes after you. Best thing to do is get together and get out. Honestly, I wish all games would just do a walkout and have handshakes at the start so the expectation isn't there for afterwards.

It is unfortunate that the coaches weren't told what the cards were for and the threatening with red cards sounds pretty over the top. I really don't like to pass judgment without having been there but that part obviously doesn't sound great.

sevenof400

Quote from: SportsDad on May 14, 2017, 01:15:37 pm
The coaches were not told what was said...nor did the refs stay around for the aftergame handshake.... they took off running to the locker room. Both coaches tried to get an explanation and were threatened with their own red cards... just a bad job of the officials handling the entire situation all around. Add in the fact that it was a semi-final game, and you have the recipe for disaster with everyone left wondering what just happened.

Assuming the recounting of events here has been as they happened, I would hope the coaches (BOTH) make a report to AAA for several reasons. First (and most) of all, if this account is indeed what occurred it was not handled well at all.  As Chaoslord said, a coach is entitled to an explanation when a card is given.  The explanation required is exactly that - an explanation and no more.   

If AAA is never put on the dime (in other words, presented with a case on which to act), the issues will never be suitably addressed.  That is the only way situations like this are likely to be avoided in the future.  By the way, there is no requirement for a referee to hang around for a post game handshake.  In some cases, it is prudent to leave the field as soon as play is over for a variety of reasons - the most pressing of which is to avoid any unnecessary post game confrontations.

If red cards were given in a game, a coach - referee meeting after a game is not a wise solution if for no other reason than with all the emotions in play.  However, this is all the more reason for a coach to contact AAA immediately after the game and file a report of what happened and ask AAA to produce the explanation.  AAA will make the appropriate contacts and while the explanation returned from this process may not fully satisfy anyone, it does at least offer the possibility of using situations like this as a teaching moment to other coaches and referees.   

Coaches can make reports to AAA - I know this occurs - and I would hope these two coaches do exactly that if for no other reason than to start a dialogue from which improvements may be made.  Please encourage your coach(es) to do this. 

sevenof400

Quote from: Mijally2 on May 14, 2017, 12:10:03 pm
I thought the rules were:  Yellow card first. Then red card?  But as I've personally experienced with refs some do whatever they want with no accountability. Some yell at the fans in the stands during the game, yell and try to embarrass players, etc.  They seemed kinda angry they have to ref the game and it shows.  But some of them are exceptional. Our game with Batesville was handled by an excellent ref.

Just to expand on Chaoslord's previous reply to this, there is no requirement of a yellow card first if the offense is serious enough. There are offenses for which the red card is the only option.  Language, if considered abusive, insulting or offensive is a red card offense (meaning there is no requirement for a yellow card first). 

chaoslord

Yeah, we're just shooting in the dark about what the possible send off was for, but it's an NFHS rule, not an AAA one, so presumably everywhere that plays high school soccer governed by that rules book is following the same prompts here. Additionally, offensive/insulting/abusive language is a send off in club ball, too.

Some referees may be more lenient than others, sure, but if (and again, only speculating here by working backwards knowing that red cards were produced from words that escalated) they were swearing at each other, that's an easy one IMO.

Mijally2

Quote from: sevenof400 on May 14, 2017, 01:41:57 pm
Just to expand on Chaoslord's previous reply to this, there is no requirement of a yellow card first if the offense is serious enough. There are offenses for which the red card is the only option.  Language, if considered abusive, insulting or offensive is a red card offense (meaning there is no requirement for a yellow card first).
That's my point Seven. Sometimes it's a yellow, sometimes a red. Whatever the master official decides. He or she is the Supreme Allied Center. (SAC).

Mijally2

Is there like a George Carlin list of things you can't say to an official without getting a red card?

MDXPHD

The Warren forward was running to get to the through ball. Had everyone beat, goalie cane out and made a great play. Slid into him and the ref didn't make a call. About a minute later, the Warren player was still down where the play occurred and the ball was on the other side of the field. Suddenly, he stood up, walked toward the keeper and pointed at him, saying something. The keeper pointed back and also said something. The AR immediately signaled the center and talked to him. He then gave the keeper a red, shortly following it up with a red for the Warren forward. The ar must have heard what was said. Clearly, the cards were for language. This all happened well away from the ball and there was no physical contact.

To the people who keep blaming the ref: feel free to do it in your spare time and be underpaid. Also, did you ever think that both the Warren player and the keeper should have kept their composure? Sometimes the punishment is justified. I know it's hard to believe that these players could have actually said some harsh things to each other, but we may have to accept it.

faith

Quote from: MDXPHD on May 14, 2017, 04:32:39 pm
The Warren forward was running to get to the through ball. Had everyone beat, goalie cane out and made a great play. Slid into him and the ref didn't make a call. About a minute later, the Warren player was still down where the play occurred and the ball was on the other side of the field. Suddenly, he stood up, walked toward the keeper and pointed at him, saying something. The keeper pointed back and also said something. The AR immediately signaled the center and talked to him. He then gave the keeper a red, shortly following it up with a red for the Warren forward. The ar must have heard what was said. Clearly, the cards were for language. This all happened well away from the ball and there was no physical contact.

To the people who keep blaming the ref: feel free to do it in your spare time and be underpaid. Also, did you ever think that both the Warren player and the keeper should have kept their composure? Sometimes the punishment is justified. I know it's hard to believe that these players could have actually said some harsh things to each other, but we may have to accept it.

Being at the game and seeing the action of the two players I do believe it was worthy a yellow! However, a red was extreme coming from and official that clearing could not ha e heard what was said from over 50 yards away!! I do believe that language needs to be keep at a minimum!! However the should be address if heard like it was a day before when another player on another team missed a shot slapped the ground and yelled the F bomb that could be heard all around the field!! That official handled it well, he went to the player and addressed it without ejecting him!! The officials that turn the game into a Power trip for them need to have some type of accountability!! There is NONE!! The ejection of the two players in this game did not deserve an ejection! Yellow yes! Knowing both programs the coaches would have handled it just fine from the bench if they had been allowed the chance!! Just bad officiating by an official that has that reputation of bad officiating!! AAA needs to get with AOA and design an accountability factor to be enforced for officials that display constant bad officiating.

SportsDad

Quote from: faith on May 14, 2017, 04:51:47 pm
Being at the game and seeing the action of the two players I do believe it was worthy a yellow! However, a red was extreme coming from and official that clearing could not ha e heard what was said from over 50 yards away!! I do believe that language needs to be keep at a minimum!! However the should be address if heard like it was a day before when another player on another team missed a shot slapped the ground and yelled the F bomb that could be heard all around the field!! That official handled it well, he went to the player and addressed it without ejecting him!! The officials that turn the game into a Power trip for them need to have some type of accountability!! There is NONE!! The ejection of the two players in this game did not deserve an ejection! Yellow yes! Knowing both programs the coaches would have handled it just fine from the bench if they had been allowed the chance!! Just bad officiating by an official that has that reputation of bad officiating!! AAA needs to get with AOA and design an accountability factor to be enforced for officials that display constant bad officiating.
100% AGREE...
There was absolutely no way that the AR (or the center official) could have heard anything over the noise of the crowd being that far away from the action.

Arbitro

First off, I worked at the 5A tournament so I don't know who was on this 4A game or from what specific action the cards were given.  But to clear up a misunderstanding, NFHS rules require the referee to inform the coach of the reason for any card.  Prior to the tournament the referees were reminded of this fact from AAA.  However, some of the posters here have an expanded idea of what "informed" means in this case. We were told to go toward the coaches and describe the reason in the briefest manner possible. Coach, that was a red card for #3 blue for abusive language.  That's it.  No discussion.  No explanation of exactly what was said (they can get that from their player if they want).  The referee has acted on what they heard or saw, and it serves no useful purpose to the game for them to get in a lengthy discussion/argument with a coach over the decision.

Like chaoslord said, sometimes when the referee figures that the reason for the card is obvious, they skip the "inform" step.  That's not strictly by the book, but most of us have done it (I certainly have).  In this case I don't know if the referee said anything to the coaches, but if he did it was probably something along the lines of what I said above - as we were specifically directed to do.  That may not be enough for some coaches, but that's not the referee's problem.

As for the sticking around for the post game handshake after a contentious game, there is a good reason for the referee crew to leave. The referees authority is in effect for the time they are in the vicinity of the field.  That includes cards.  If a player or coach who is still angry comes up to the referee and says "hey ref, you really f$&@ed up that game", the referee is essentially required to red card them. Why create a situation where a person can be tossed when it can easily be avoided by not hanging around? I like congratulating and complimenting players after a good game, but on those rare occasions when games get ugly I pick up my stuff and leave the field shortly after the final whistle. Don't create the possibility for a bad situation when it isn't necessary.

SportsDad

Thanks to everyone for the good interaction on this discussion.

Mijally2

And in closing...a significant player is not playing in the championship game.  Hopefully the superstar ref who decided it was all about himself is finished for the year and has no hand in determining the outcome of the championship any more than he already has. 

Arbitro

Quote from: Mijally2 on May 14, 2017, 05:42:28 pm
And in closing...a significant player is not playing in the championship game.  Hopefully the superstar ref who decided it was all about himself is finished for the year and has no hand in determining the outcome of the championship any more than he already has.
And hopefully you will use your knowledge of the sport and keen perception of others' motivations to become a referee for next year. Be part of the solution.

chaoslord

Quote from: faith on May 14, 2017, 04:51:47 pm
The officials that turn the game into a Power trip for them need to have some type of accountability!! There is NONE!!
....
AAA needs to get with AOA and design an accountability factor to be enforced for officials that display constant bad officiating.

People say this a lot, but accountability does exist. What is your vision of accountability, though?

I feel like this is a good discussion, especially because it has the potential to highlight the differences between expectations of different groups,  but it becomes hard without knowing what the AR reported to the referee. If it was "You're a jerk!" Then it's easy to say it's a gross overreaction. If it was "F you MFer" then the send off was correct. And in between could be varying shades of orange.

Still digging around but nothin yet.

MDXPHD

I was at the game. The crowd noise was a non factor, as I had nothing but empty seats surrounding me and I was on the same side as the ar.  If the ref supposedly couldn't hear what was said (although the ar was not 50 yards from the play..but probably around 25), then how are all of you guys able to just know the red card was unwarranted? The center ref was told by the ar what was said if I had to guess. The fans from Episcopal did go crazy though. Called the ref a few different names. Almost had to ask them to watch the language because my boy was with me.

Visable

Quote from: MDXPHD on May 12, 2017, 03:44:33 pm
4-0 final. CAC was outmatched and outclassed. Very impressed with Warren.

Apparently, you were not at the Warren vs CAC game.  Outmatched and Outclassed.  lol 
I was on the end of the field the entire game.  Two very freak goals occurred for Warren within 3 minutes of each other.  Without that.  This would have been a one goal game.
I especially take offense to the Outclassed comment.  Totally uncalled for.

Visable

Agree on the comment that was made about Warren vs CAC.
Outclassed and Outmatched was an insane comment.  As was later on, he mentioned emotions on the field and in the stands got out of control. This was absolutely not true.    These people need to report FACTS, not give biased opinions.   The post was out of line.

AirWarren


beach bum

This game is Saturday at noon right? I will make this game if I can do so.

AirWarren

Quote from: beach bum on May 15, 2017, 06:59:27 pm
This game is Saturday at noon right? I will make this game if I can do so.

Noon it appears. I may drive up.

chaoslord

Howdy folks, I'm on my phone and so I don't feel like typing up a long mess and my apps aren't wanting to copy paste right now so long story later, but short version:

The kids were swearing at and provoking each other in a very public way and both coaches were informed why their player was sent off, including the specific language.

Sounds like an open and shut case to me.

MDXPHD

Quote from: chaoslord on May 16, 2017, 10:31:37 am
Howdy folks, I'm on my phone and so I don't feel like typing up a long mess and my apps aren't wanting to copy paste right now so long story later, but short version:

The kids were swearing at and provoking each other in a very public way and both coaches were informed why their player was sent off, including the specific language.

Sounds like an open and shut case to me.

How dare you! There is no way those kids deserved to be sent off! All the fans were there and they agree.

Visable

Quote from: sevenof400 on May 14, 2017, 11:24:04 am
Players CAN and SHOULD get ejecting for arguing with each other if serious enough language is used - those players should be gone. 

I think it more likely that a player (or players) lost their own self-control and created a situation from which the referee had no option.  If (and I emphasize the if here) the players were cussing and taunting each other, what would you have the referee do?

I agree.  The problem is that cussing, taunting and vulgar language occurs way too much and the refs ignore most of it.
There are a few select teams that are worse than others, but I'm not naming anyone.   We just see too many times where the refs lose control of a game and then try to make up for it by tossing one kid, when they have let this stuff go on the whole game.

Visable

Quote from: Mijally2 on May 14, 2017, 05:42:28 pm
And in closing...a significant player is not playing in the championship game.  Hopefully the superstar ref who decided it was all about himself is finished for the year and has no hand in determining the outcome of the championship any more than he already has.

Welcome to the game.  This occurred last year.  CAC lost a key player in the Green Forest game with just a few minutes left, because the ref allowed the talking to get out of hand.  CAC had the game well in hand.  A player said something and the other responded and a Senior did not get to play against Dardanelle in the Semi's.   It's a sad situation for everyone involved.
The Senior realized he made a mistake, he should have kept quite and not responded to the bait.  But by this time, his career is over.

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