Fearless Friday Bulletin Boards

Arkansas High School Basketball => Killer Crossover => Topic started by: Brian G on June 07, 2018, 04:13:09 pm

Title: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on June 07, 2018, 04:13:09 pm
The AAA has authorized usage of a 35 sec shot clock in n/c tournaments this season.  Already at least 2 I can think of have done it in recent years.

I know there is a big push coming from some schools.

I'm connected to the Bulldog Classic held in Fayetteville the first week of December and the plan is to have the shot clocks installed in both full size gyms for this event.  This tournament is 8 boys and 8 girls teams.
  UPDATE  This will not happen at this event this year.

Discussion stage has reached action stage in some cases.  Downside always involves cost for equipment and subsequently a solely dedicated clock operator

Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: x14113 on June 07, 2018, 10:15:00 pm
This is highly necessary in the long-term, but immediate resistance wouldn't surprise me.

I'm wondering how many smaller-scale tourneys will be canceled just to avoid installation...?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: MomaLion on June 08, 2018, 12:04:23 am
Schools aren't required to use shot clocks for these N/C tournys right?  To me it just means that schools that wish to use them are being given the go ahead.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on June 08, 2018, 01:17:35 pm
Optional in n/c tournaments.

A chance to test it so to speak.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: sevenof400 on June 09, 2018, 11:38:12 am
Quote from: x14113 on June 07, 2018, 10:15:00 pm
This is highly necessary in the long-term
, but immediate resistance wouldn't surprise me.

I'm wondering how many smaller-scale tourneys will be canceled just to avoid installation...?

Why?

Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Rayburn on June 13, 2018, 11:34:44 am
Quote from: sevenof400 on June 09, 2018, 11:38:12 am
Why?
It's not. It would hurt the game and player development in the long term. It's bad for basketball to have a shot clock at the prep level. Maybe fun to have temporarily for a meaningless early season tournament, but absolutely a bad idea to make it a permanent requirement.
The only reason one was ever implemented at any level was for fans, and high school sports are not about the fans.
Take Jerry Bridges' Cabot teams for example. They were never NOT trying to score. But I've seen them run their offense for two minutes until they got a good shot. It was a thing of beauty and it would be a tragedy to take that away at that level. It's not like there was no defense out there. If they're good enough, they'll get the ball. Suck it up and play defense.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Informant on June 13, 2018, 12:05:47 pm
Quote from: Rayburn on June 13, 2018, 11:34:44 am
It's not. It would hurt the game and player development in the long term. It's bad for basketball to have a shot clock at the prep level. Maybe fun to have temporarily for a meaningless early season tournament, but absolutely a bad idea to make it a permanent requirement.
The only reason one was ever implemented at any level was for fans, and high school sports are not about the fans.
Take Jerry Bridges' Cabot teams for example. They were never NOT trying to score. But I've seen them run their offense for two minutes until they got a good shot. It was a thing of beauty and it would be a tragedy to take that away at that level. It's not like there was no defense out there. If they're good enough, they'll get the ball. Suck it up and play defense.

YES YES YES YES!  Very well said! Couldn't agree more!
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on June 13, 2018, 01:03:10 pm
Quote from: Rayburn on June 13, 2018, 11:34:44 am
It's not. It would hurt the game and player development in the long term. It's bad for basketball to have a shot clock at the prep level. Maybe fun to have temporarily for a meaningless early season tournament, but absolutely a bad idea to make it a permanent requirement.
The only reason one was ever implemented at any level was for fans, and high school sports are not about the fans.
Take Jerry Bridges' Cabot teams for example. They were never NOT trying to score. But I've seen them run their offense for two minutes until they got a good shot. It was a thing of beauty and it would be a tragedy to take that away at that level. It's not like there was no defense out there. If they're good enough, they'll get the ball. Suck it up and play defense.


So it's bad for them to play at the same rules the levels above them play? And other states with far superior high school basketball play with a shot clock.... Welcome to 2018 my friend.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Informant on June 13, 2018, 03:13:13 pm
Quote from: beach bum on June 13, 2018, 01:03:10 pm

So it's bad for them to play at the same rules the levels above them play? And other states with far superior high school basketball play with a shot clock.... Welcome to 2018 my friend.

With this logic.....why don't we have 3rd graders play with a shot clock?

Why doesn't 8 year old baseball play with 90' bases and 60' mound?

Pee Wee football should play on a regulation football field?

Schools should go to an 8 to 5, Monday through Friday schedule.  Make lunch be $8-10. Everyday.  I means that's what level they are headed to right?

And what other states are you talking about? New York? California? Texas?  States with 5 times the people we have in Arkansas.  They don't have superior basketball.  They have thousands more athletes to choose from. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on June 13, 2018, 10:14:21 pm
Quote from: Informant on June 13, 2018, 03:13:13 pm
With this logic.....why don't we have 3rd graders play with a shot clock?

Why doesn't 8 year old baseball play with 90' bases and 60' mound?

Pee Wee football should play on a regulation football field?

Schools should go to an 8 to 5, Monday through Friday schedule.  Make lunch be $8-10. Everyday.  I means that's what level they are headed to right?

And what other states are you talking about? New York? California? Texas?  States with 5 times the people we have in Arkansas.  They don't have superior basketball.  They have thousands more athletes to choose from.

+ a bazillion!!!
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: WPWells on June 14, 2018, 08:15:28 am
Sorry, I didn't realize that in football and baseball high school played with different rules than college or pro ::)
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: footballfan-tastic on June 14, 2018, 02:41:57 pm
Shot clock is for fans.  It is not a rule that inherently improves the game because if forces every team to hurry their pace.  This is something every team could already do if they choose.  So it really take away from the game.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on June 14, 2018, 03:18:52 pm
I think you'll see more coaches want it than not.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: footballfan-tastic on June 14, 2018, 03:19:40 pm
I just don't see the need, any coach who wants to play up tempo already has that ability.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on June 14, 2018, 03:22:33 pm
I believe you will see this gradually take over as the norm.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Informant on June 14, 2018, 04:11:31 pm
Quote from: B.G. on June 14, 2018, 03:22:33 pm
I believe you will see this gradually take over as the norm.
.

Because AAA is all about the money and fans, not about developing and learning.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on June 14, 2018, 09:03:09 pm
Quote from: Informant on June 14, 2018, 04:11:31 pm
.

Because AAA is all about the money and fans, not about developing and learning.

A little bit ridiculous to make that statement.  ::)

The AAA won't decide this.  Each school and admin will vote and determine for themselves.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on June 14, 2018, 09:55:31 pm
Quote from: B.G. on June 14, 2018, 03:18:52 pm
I think you'll see more coaches want it than not.

I disagree.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on June 14, 2018, 10:02:13 pm
Quote from: Informant on June 14, 2018, 04:11:31 pm
.

Because AAA is all about the money and fans, not about developing and learning.


The AAA is about being in the 21st century apparently.... And now schools will learn they have to shoot the ball in 35 seconds. I did not think it was that difficult to get a shot off after 15 to 20 or so passes cause if you can't get an open look after that many passes your offensive sets must stink as a coach.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Informant on June 15, 2018, 09:13:07 am
Quote from: B.G. on June 14, 2018, 09:03:09 pm
A little bit ridiculous to make that statement.  ::)

The AAA won't decide this.  Each school and admin will vote and determine for themselves.

Is the AAA not the governing body for all interscholastic activities in Arkansas? Do they not enforce rules put in place by a board of officials?  If they are not going to enforce the shot clock, the why would schools even listen to the idea?

If AAA is not going to rule on this matter, then why are we evening talking about it?  There is zero reason to have a shot clock tournament ever, if at some point the AAA isn't going to implement these rules into a regional or state tournament. 


Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on June 15, 2018, 02:11:33 pm
Quote from: Informant on June 15, 2018, 09:13:07 am
Is the AAA not the governing body for all interscholastic activities in Arkansas? Do they not enforce rules put in place by a board of officials?  If they are not going to enforce the shot clock, the why would schools even listen to the idea?

If AAA is not going to rule on this matter, then why are we evening talking about it?  There is zero reason to have a shot clock tournament ever, if at some point the AAA isn't going to implement these rules into a regional or state tournament.




It will be used in every game in Arkansas soon.... It's a tough, reality pill to swallow for some. There will be lazy coaches who actually have to teach their kids better offensive skills now.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on June 15, 2018, 04:50:20 pm
Quote from: beach bum on June 15, 2018, 02:11:33 pm

It will be used in every game in Arkansas soon.... It's a tough, reality pill to swallow for some. There will be lazy coaches who actually have to teach their kids better offensive skills now.

Wow.  Not sure why you're calling them lazy.  Dean Smith was anything but lazy, and he'd spread the floor in a heartbeat.  I'm not a fan of stalling, but it is a strategy, and it's sometimes effective.  A team can't stall if they are behind, so maybe that coach is lazy too?  Maybe he should be teaching his players better skills.
I believe we will have it statewide soon, and I'm also entitled to my opinion.  I think it's a mistake. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: footballfan-tastic on June 15, 2018, 10:03:54 pm
Doesn't matter if you are speeding up the tempo or slowing it down, you have to do the same things: ball handling, passing, eventually shooting. A faster game means you just do one thing at a faster pace, shoot.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Informant on June 18, 2018, 01:29:35 pm
Quote from: beach bum on June 15, 2018, 02:11:33 pm

It will be used in every game in Arkansas soon.... It's a tough, reality pill to swallow for some. There will be lazy coaches who actually have to teach their kids better offensive skills now.

I think your wrong.  I don't think it will be soon.  I think it'll another 5-8 years before we use shot clocks in late February and March.  The only offensive skill that will be taught more is how to shoot it quickly without proper awareness or proper form. 

This is and will be a move to appease fans, such as yourself, who see the game as boring.  Not to help our student athletes become better basketball players.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: SUGARTOWN on June 18, 2018, 01:50:42 pm
Quote from: Informant on June 18, 2018, 01:29:35 pm
The only offensive skill that will be taught more is how to shoot it quickly without proper awareness or proper form. 

LOL. You think implementing a shot clock means kids will be running down and chunking it up from the cheap seats? We ran an uptempo offense when I was in high school and no one sacrificed form for efficiency. And that was 30 years ago...if anything, shooting skills overall have gotten WORSE, not better since then IMO.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Informant on June 18, 2018, 02:33:25 pm
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on June 18, 2018, 01:50:42 pm
LOL. You think implementing a shot clock means kids will be running down and chunking it up from the cheap seats? We ran an uptempo offense when I was in high school and no one sacrificed form for efficiency. And that was 30 years ago...if anything, shooting skills overall have gotten WORSE, not better since then IMO.

I agree they have gotten worse. And now we want to put a shot clock in.  Why do you think they've gotten worse? Because they stand around too much passing the ball?  Or because coaches do not correct them?  What you said only plays into what I've been saying.  More truly lazy coaches do not develop players. Allowing them to create bad habits while on AAU teams and open gyms during the summer.  Adding a shot clock, will add the this laziness of coaching.  By adding it, you take away an advantage that coaches can use if need be.  Adding a shot clock only lets the bad coaches win games they most likely will be out coached in. Shot clock will not help player development, which is what high school athletics is suppose to facilitate.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: SUGARTOWN on June 18, 2018, 02:48:42 pm
Quote from: Informant on June 18, 2018, 02:33:25 pm
I agree they have gotten worse. And now we want to put a shot clock in.  Why do you think they've gotten worse? Because they stand around too much passing the ball?  Or because coaches do not correct them?  What you said only plays into what I've been saying.  More truly lazy coaches do not develop players. Allowing them to create bad habits while on AAU teams and open gyms during the summer.  Adding a shot clock, will add the this laziness of coaching.  By adding it, you take away an advantage that coaches can use if need be.  Adding a shot clock only lets the bad coaches win games they most likely will be out coached in. Shot clock will not help player development, which is what high school athletics is suppose to facilitate.

Honestly, I think they've gotten worse because kids for the most part don't play in their driveways or in the parks as much as they used too. Too many video games and such are keeping them inside and not outside playing. Don't get me wrong I played the crap out of my Atari when I was younger, but I also lived in our driveway shooting and going to the gym whenever it was open. There's too many other draws for their time nowadays.

And before I sound like an old grouch, that's not it at all, times just change and so does the game. Some of the games I see now the kids as a whole are more athletic than in my day, but we could shoot better.

Truly good coaches can adapt and compete with any style of play. I don't think it's lazy to have a team play up tempo if that's what suits them. A shot clock won't really force teams to jack up crazy shots, if they have a good coach they can/will adapt just fine.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: nuttinbuthogs on June 18, 2018, 06:24:27 pm
Quote from: SUGARTOWN on June 18, 2018, 02:48:42 pm
Honestly, I think they've gotten worse because kids for the most part don't play in their driveways or in the parks as much as they used too. Too many video games and such are keeping them inside and not outside playing. Don't get me wrong I played the crap out of my Atari when I was younger, but I also lived in our driveway shooting and going to the gym whenever it was open. There's too many other draws for their time nowadays.

And before I sound like an old grouch, that's not it at all, times just change and so does the game. Some of the games I see now the kids as a whole are more athletic than in my day, but we could shoot better.

Truly good coaches can adapt and compete with any style of play. I don't think it's lazy to have a team play up tempo if that's what suits them. A shot clock won't really force teams to jack up crazy shots, if they have a good coach they can/will adapt just fine.

Maybe they will adapt.  They just shouldn't have too!  Let coaches coach and let fans sit, watch and complain.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Bogeytrain on June 25, 2018, 03:00:47 pm
I don't think people realize how long 35 seconds is. It will affect very few possessions during the game. The only way it will come in to play "usually" is at the end of the game. Teams wont be be able to hold it for the last 2 minutes up 4 and make it a foul shooting contest. Teams will actually have to play out possessions. That's an improvement for the game!
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on June 25, 2018, 05:05:42 pm
Quote from: Bogeytrain on June 25, 2018, 03:00:47 pm
I don't think people realize how long 35 seconds is. It will affect very few possessions during the game. The only way it will come in to play "usually" is at the end of the game. Teams wont be be able to hold it for the last 2 minutes up 4 and make it a foul shooting contest. Teams will actually have to play out possessions. That's an improvement for the game!


We finally have a voice of reason.... I have been trying to say the same thing that this will impact very little of the game if at all in a huge chunk of games.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Iknewthemwhen on June 25, 2018, 07:06:26 pm
Quote from: beach bum on June 25, 2018, 05:05:42 pm

We finally have a voice of reason.... I have been trying to say the same thing that this will impact very little of the game if at all in a huge chunk of games.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Iknewthemwhen on June 25, 2018, 07:06:58 pm
If it isn't going to impact the game then it makes no sense to implement it.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on June 25, 2018, 07:18:59 pm
Quote from: Iknewthemwhen on June 25, 2018, 07:06:58 pm
If it isn't going to impact the game then it makes no sense to implement it.

So Arkansas basketball could join the 21st century....
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Bogeytrain on June 26, 2018, 10:32:50 am
Quote from: Iknewthemwhen on June 25, 2018, 07:06:58 pm
If it isn't going to impact the game then it makes no sense to implement it.

No one said it wouldn't impact the game, just not on the scale that everyone is making it out to be. It will vastly improve the end of close games! 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Rocket23 on June 26, 2018, 01:16:30 pm
Most of the games I have watched or officiated the last few years, I have seen less and less of the stall tactic.  I believe most of the games, the impact of a shot clock would be minimal.  There are outliers for sure, but overall I don't think so.  In my college games, shot clock violations were far and few in between.

What I think will be difficult when and if they implement the clock throughout the season, will be having enough people competent enough or at least disciplined enough to operate the clock.  It is a nightmare sometimes in my D2 games and below to get through games without snafus.  It also takes a lot discipline by officials to recognize those shot clock snafus and properly correct the errors.

That being said I prefer to officiate games with a shot clock.  I do see both sides of the arguments from the coaches.  I can remember some of our games in high school vs West Memphis with Lee, Cage, and Aaron Price, the four corners is the only we had a chance.  Yes, we still lost, but it might be by 10 rather than 25.  And gosh it was boring, but it gave us a shot, realistic or not.K
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: blueandwhite on June 26, 2018, 06:41:29 pm
How do you stop a team from stalling, PLAY DEFENSE. Get out of the packed in zone and play man to man
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on June 26, 2018, 11:19:45 pm
Quote from: blueandwhite on June 26, 2018, 06:41:29 pm
How do you stop a team from stalling, PLAY DEFENSE. Get out of the packed in zone and play man to man


If coaches are smart then they will play more zone with a shot clock at the high school level.... Let them pass it around the perimeter until the shot clock goes down only to have them take poor outside shots.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on June 27, 2018, 07:56:31 am
Quote from: beach bum on June 26, 2018, 11:19:45 pm

If coaches are smart then they will play more zone with a shot clock at the high school level.... Let them pass it around the perimeter until the shot clock goes down only to have them take poor outside shots.

If coaches are smart?? If they were smart they wouldn't put their livelihoods in the hands of teenagers and unrealistic fans.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on June 27, 2018, 09:02:58 am
Quote from: Moonshiner on June 27, 2018, 07:56:31 am
If coaches are smart?? If they were smart they wouldn't put their livelihoods in the hands of teenagers and unrealistic fans.

I thought that's what they did for a living?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on June 27, 2018, 12:05:40 pm
Quote from: beach bum on June 27, 2018, 09:02:58 am
I thought that's what they did for a living?

You are correct
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: OB11 on June 28, 2018, 10:05:53 am
I feel like a shot clock is no different than the 25 second clock in football. It keeps the game moving at a reasonable clip and forces teams and coaches to be prepared to run their system. I'm not a big fan of playing stall-ball, but don't fault coaches that do it. They are playing within the rules. If the rules change, they should adapt. You can still be efficient and run your offense even with a shot clock.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: HorseFeathers on June 28, 2018, 11:44:46 am
Seems like some on this thread should go get certified and help those lazy dumb learn new tricks

Fwiw I don't care either way...watched the Russellville tourney with a 35 second shot clock and only seen a few possessions that we're affected by the shot clock
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: gameoflife on June 28, 2018, 09:26:13 pm
Quote from: OB11 on June 28, 2018, 10:05:53 am
I feel like a shot clock is no different than the 25 second clock in football. It keeps the game moving at a reasonable clip and forces teams and coaches to be prepared to run their system. I'm not a big fan of playing stall-ball, but don't fault coaches that do it. They are playing within the rules. If the rules change, they should adapt. You can still be efficient and run your offense even with a shot clock.

Not really the same, in football the ball is reset for play at the end of every down and keep the offensive team from literally wasting the entire game you have to have a forced snap.  Basketball the ball stays in play unless a time out or penalty of some sort.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Chalant on June 30, 2018, 10:14:03 pm
Playing fast or playing slow well, both require skill and good fundamentals.

A 35-second shot clock will not dramatically change much except end of the game situations as already mentioned.

Playing fast is about being entertained not about better basketball skill set. Some teams want more shots and some teams want better shot selection.

I am blah on the subject except for 1 area if you think you get frustrated now with the clock keepers, wait until a shot clock comes. Also, it is just one more person a school has to pay and I would bet this is one of the biggest roadblocks to ever getting the change made.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: SCHawg on July 03, 2018, 01:57:57 pm
Quote from: Rayburn on June 13, 2018, 11:34:44 am
It's not. It would hurt the game and player development in the long term. It's bad for basketball to have a shot clock at the prep level. Maybe fun to have temporarily for a meaningless early season tournament, but absolutely a bad idea to make it a permanent requirement.
The only reason one was ever implemented at any level was for fans, and high school sports are not about the fans.
Take Jerry Bridges' Cabot teams for example. They were never NOT trying to score. But I've seen them run their offense for two minutes until they got a good shot. It was a thing of beauty and it would be a tragedy to take that away at that level. It's not like there was no defense out there. If they're good enough, they'll get the ball. Suck it up and play defense.
LOL you've watched too much Hoosiers buddy.  Nobody wants to see a team hold the ball for two minutes.  Suck it up and play offense.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: SCHawg on July 03, 2018, 01:59:15 pm
Quote from: Rayburn on June 13, 2018, 11:34:44 am
It's not. It would hurt the game and player development in the long term. It's bad for basketball to have a shot clock at the prep level. Maybe fun to have temporarily for a meaningless early season tournament, but absolutely a bad idea to make it a permanent requirement.
The only reason one was ever implemented at any level was for fans, and high school sports are not about the fans.
Take Jerry Bridges' Cabot teams for example. They were never NOT trying to score. But I've seen them run their offense for two minutes until they got a good shot. It was a thing of beauty and it would be a tragedy to take that away at that level. It's not like there was no defense out there. If they're good enough, they'll get the ball. Suck it up and play defense.
Saying it would hurt player development?  You hurt player development by running set play after set play and holding the ball on offense. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: gameoflife on July 03, 2018, 04:40:15 pm
Quote from: SCHawg on July 03, 2018, 01:59:15 pm
Saying it would hurt player development?  You hurt player development by running set play after set play and holding the ball on offense. 

That's ridiculous.  Players get "developed" during extensive practice time. The more developed they are though practice and working on skills during practice the better they execute whatever style of offense, defense the coach has decided to run
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Rayburn on July 09, 2018, 02:14:52 pm
Quote from: SCHawg on July 03, 2018, 01:57:57 pm
LOL you've watched too much Hoosiers buddy.  Nobody wants to see a team hold the ball for two minutes.  Suck it up and play offense.
No team can just stand there and "hold the ball" unless the defense lets it happen. It takes two to NOT tango.
How bout the shot clock whiners suck it up and play defense–instead of crying for a rule change to force the other team to do what you want.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on July 09, 2018, 08:10:11 pm
Lets develop a rule in football that makes the offense pass on every other down. 
Or do away with ground and pound running.  Make it a rule.  "State Law!!"
Running the ball is boring for fans evidently.  Just ask Houston Nutt.
It's about the fans after all.
While we are at it, outlaw junk defenses in basketball. 
Teams that cant "jam it in the hole" start with a 10 point deficit. 
Coaches have to wear white tennis shoes with suits.
4 pointers from the volleyball line and 5 points for a half court shot.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 09, 2018, 09:59:56 pm
Quote from: Moonshiner on July 09, 2018, 08:10:11 pm
Lets develop a rule in football that makes the offense pass on every other down. 
Or do away with ground and pound running.  Make it a rule.  "State Law!!"
Running the ball is boring for fans evidently.  Just ask Houston Nutt.
It's about the fans after all.
While we are at it, outlaw junk defenses in basketball. 
Teams that cant "jam it in the hole" start with a 10 point deficit. 
Coaches have to wear white tennis shoes with suits.
4 pointers from the volleyball line and 5 points for a half court shot.

A shot clock is not near as radical as what you just stated above.... Don't be so dramatic and exaggerate that impact about the change to a shot clock.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 09, 2018, 10:03:08 pm
Quote from: Rayburn on July 09, 2018, 02:14:52 pm
No team can just stand there and "hold the ball" unless the defense lets it happen. It takes two to NOT tango.
How bout the shot clock whiners suck it up and play defense–instead of crying for a rule change to force the other team to do what you want.

Why would a team just decide to not play defense? Who would do that whether there is or isn't a shot clock? I don't even know what you are trying to say.....
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on July 09, 2018, 11:17:23 pm
Quote from: beach bum on July 09, 2018, 09:59:56 pm
A shot clock is not near as radical as what you just stated above.... Don't be so dramatic and exaggerate that impact about the change to a shot clock.

There was a lot of sarcasm there sonny.  But...think about it just a bit.  Shot clocks affect coaching strategy a lot more than the impulsive fan thinks about.  Don't take away the coaches right to make that lazy team play defense. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on July 10, 2018, 11:07:10 am
Quote from: beach bum on July 09, 2018, 10:03:08 pm
Why would a team just decide to not play defense? Who would do that whether there is or isn't a shot clock? I don't even know what you are trying to say.....

He's trying to say that if you wan them to not play keep away, then go get the ball.  They can't stall if they don't have the basketball. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: HorseFeathers on July 10, 2018, 11:20:56 am
Quote from: beach bum on July 09, 2018, 10:03:08 pm
Why would a team just decide to not play defense? Who would do that whether there is or isn't a shot clock? I don't even know what you are trying to say.....

Didn't see it at the senior high level this year....But seen a JR High Girls team hold the ball at half court this year for about 5 minutes of a quarter(think they were in foul trouble or the other team was on a comeback run) and the defense never stepped out past the 3 point line...before you call either coach bad or lazy, it broke one teams momentum...and the team who didn't play defense, well their coach has 2 state title rings, a few runner ups and hasn't missed the semi finals in like 10 years(some of y'all will know who I'm talking about).

If you aren't going to guard me, and I have the lead....why should there be a rule to force me to potentially give the ball back on a bad shot selection?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Oxford Cat on July 11, 2018, 07:46:27 am
How many of you have heard of the Elam ending to finish games. At the four minute mark of a game the winning team would have to score 7 more points to win the game. The losing team would have to score 7 points plus the number of points they were behind eliminating the need for a clock at that point.  Probably never going to happen but would stop teams from stalling to let the clock run out when they are ahead and also stop the losing team from fouling to stop the clock in order to catch up. Seems like a wild idea but has been used experimentally in college and the NBA is studying it.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: AT on July 11, 2018, 10:29:30 am
Quote from: Bogeytrain on June 25, 2018, 03:00:47 pm
I don't think people realize how long 35 seconds is. It will affect very few possessions during the game. The only way it will come in to play "usually" is at the end of the game. Teams wont be be able to hold it for the last 2 minutes up 4 and make it a foul shooting contest. Teams will actually have to play out possessions. That's an improvement for the game!

This should be the crutch of the pro-shot clock argument. This is about the end game mostly.


Also, this is partially about the fans. It is very noble to think high school sports should always be about the students and it is the main focus, but think about the most popular sports in Arkansas. Why are they? # of spectators.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on July 11, 2018, 01:43:53 pm
Quote from: Almatrackster on July 11, 2018, 10:29:30 am
This should be the crutch of the pro-shot clock argument. This is about the end game mostly.


Also, this is partially about the fans. It is very noble to think high school sports should always be about the students and it is the main focus, but think about the most popular sports in Arkansas. Why are they? # of spectators.

Amateur athletics should be about the kids.  In my opinion.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 11, 2018, 04:50:06 pm
Quote from: Moonshiner on July 11, 2018, 01:43:53 pm
Amateur athletics should be about the kids.  In my opinion.

How harsh it is to make those poor, innocent kids play with a shot clock  ::) .... How will they survive with such a tough obstacle in their way to overcome?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on July 11, 2018, 06:15:47 pm
I think you would find kids would rather have a shot clock.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: OB11 on July 12, 2018, 08:38:01 am
Quote from: B.G. on July 11, 2018, 06:15:47 pm
I think you would find kids would rather have a shot clock.

Look at professional sports...pace of play is everything for all the major sports. More movement, more offense, uptempo. It will trickle down to youth sports eventually. I think the majority of players in high school would be fine with it. What's the drawback for the players? How many players do you think are fired up about stalling for minutes at a time?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: nuttinbuthogs on July 12, 2018, 12:14:47 pm
The entire issue comes down to a coaches decision of how his tea should play. A surgeon performs surgery in a manner that he believes is best for a patients future, thus a coach makes decisions for what he believes is best for both the short term and long term success of his team.  Leave it to the coach of each team as to how they should play.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: SackAttack on July 12, 2018, 12:34:37 pm
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on July 12, 2018, 12:14:47 pm
The entire issue comes down to a coaches decision of how his tea should play. A surgeon performs surgery in a manner that he believes is best for a patients future, thus a coach makes decisions for what he believes is best for both the short term and long term success of his team.  Leave it to the coach of each team as to how they should play.
Finally somebody that gets it! Sir we are the minority on here it seems!!
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: gameoflife on July 12, 2018, 02:48:25 pm
Rules changes should enhance the game, without taking away strategic options from a coach.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: AT on July 12, 2018, 05:19:13 pm
Almost any rule change is going to change the strategic options for a coach. Navigating rules are part of the fundamental of strategy.

Is this about the coaches or the players?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on July 12, 2018, 06:17:57 pm
Shot clock just changes the strategy, focus and goals. 

It'll just be different.  I'm convinced it's going to happen within a few years in AR.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: gameoflife on July 13, 2018, 10:56:14 am
Quote from: Almatrackster on July 12, 2018, 05:19:13 pm
Almost any rule change is going to change the strategic options for a coach. Navigating rules are part of the fundamental of strategy.

Is this about the coaches or the players?

Who runs the team?  The players or the coach?  It's a coaches decision!  All those strategic options are there now, you don't have to have a rule to force one of them on a coach or on a team.  Let them play their way.  And to your point, its about the kids and the coaches.  As for the kids, let them play according to how the coach determines is best for them.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 13, 2018, 01:10:11 pm
Quote from: gameoflife on July 13, 2018, 10:56:14 am
Who runs the team?  The players or the coach?  It's a coaches decision!  All those strategic options are there now, you don't have to have a rule to force one of them on a coach or on a team.  Let them play their way.  And to your point, its about the kids and the coaches.  As for the kids, let them play according to how the coach determines is best for them.

High school athletics is about the kids, period. There are too many coaches in this profession who put their egos above the kids.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 13, 2018, 01:13:57 pm
Kids read right through coaches who only view them as an object in their way to getting their career goals they want and not as genuine, human beings.... We have a couple at my old school district who think a little too highly of themselves and the funny part is neither are winning a lick currently even playing smaller schools in a blended league with their "me, me, me" coaching attitude. I don't care at all about coaches feelings when decisions are made about rules or changing the game. It's about the kids, period. I know a lot of people on this board have family members or friends in the profession of coaching and take things a little too personal and think its about the coaches! Sorry, its not. Hurting a section of coaches feelings shouldn't matter when making changes.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: gameoflife on July 13, 2018, 03:14:10 pm
Quote from: beach bum on July 13, 2018, 01:10:11 pm
High school athletics is about the kids, period. There are too many coaches in this profession who put their egos above the kids.


You are entitled to your opinion but to deny that the coaches are a factor and that coaching should be considered is not looking deeply into what is happening.  Coaches are tasked with running their programs and doing what is best for the kids and the program.  Their job is in part to produce wins and since they are judged by wins and losses it would be wrong to deny them as many options as possible.  As long as these options do not cause harm.  There is no evidence, only opinion that suggest harm to the players for executing a stall game.  Even more, the option to stall the ball in a situation where the game is in control but perhaps the team is working against foul problems is deliberately taking control of the game out of the hands of a coach and his kids.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: AT on July 13, 2018, 05:19:18 pm
There is no evidence against shot clock ruining the game. Actually, considering the amount of leagues at all levels around the country who have a shot clock and have never got rid of it, you could argue there is quite a bit of evidence for a shot clock.

And putting a shot clock into the game puts control INTO the coaches' and kids' hands to mount a 5 point comeback with 2 minutes left without resorting to a foul fest.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: footballfan-tastic on July 14, 2018, 09:52:20 am
Quote from: Almatrackster on July 13, 2018, 05:19:18 pm
There is no evidence against shot clock ruining the game. Actually, considering the amount of leagues at all levels around the country who have a shot clock and have never got rid of it, you could argue there is quite a bit of evidence for a shot clock.

And putting a shot clock into the game puts control INTO the coaches' and kids' hands to mount a 5 point comeback with 2 minutes left without resorting to a foul fest.

Don't need evidence that it will ruin the game.  The game is fine as it is, coaches coaching and players playing.  Your analysis of putting the game into their control is your opinion. They already have full control of the game and forcing a shot clock on teams that do not choose to play that style is not necessary.  I have seen numerous posts on here about playing tough defense and forcing the tempo if you have the ability to do so.  A team that has won the advantage should have the option to play slow down if they like in order to protect it.  As for others adding a shot clock, are you referring to a few high schools, I believe it is 8 total at this time, that use a 30-35 second clock.  The national federation does not allow it but individual states cannot be stopped from implementation if they so choose.  The catch is that if they do use the shot clock the state uses their seat on the NFHS basketball rules committee.   I would say as long as the National Federation is opposed it should be left as is.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: AT on July 14, 2018, 10:49:16 am
Quote from: footballfan-tastic on July 14, 2018, 09:52:20 am
Don't need evidence that it will ruin the game.  The game is fine as it is, coaches coaching and players playing.  Your analysis of putting the game into their control is your opinion. They already have full control of the game and forcing a shot clock on teams that do not choose to play that style is not necessary.  I have seen numerous posts on here about playing tough defense and forcing the tempo if you have the ability to do so.  A team that has won the advantage should have the option to play slow down if they like in order to protect it.  As for others adding a shot clock, are you referring to a few high schools, I believe it is 8 total at this time, that use a 30-35 second clock.  The national federation does not allow it but individual states cannot be stopped from implementation if they so choose.  The catch is that if they do use the shot clock the state uses their seat on the NFHS basketball rules committee.   I would say as long as the National Federation is opposed it should be left as is.

And yet, the game being as fine as it is, has this rule being seriously considered across the state. Many would disagree. I've heard wanting a shot clock in high school fo as long as I remember.

8 states currently use it with Wisconsin joining and others looking to join. No state has removed the shot clock so it seems that it was a good enough rule to implement and not remove.

We keep talking about how progressing these athletes in basketball is the most important thing, but if any student wants to play basketball at any level after high school, a shot clock will be used.

High school athletes are developmentally able to play within the rules of a shot clock, there's very little reason to not implement a reasonable shot clock, and it seems the main one is so that coaches can channel their inner Dean Smith.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: footballfan-tastic on July 14, 2018, 11:11:12 am
Quote from: Almatrackster on July 14, 2018, 10:49:16 am
And yet, the game being as fine as it is, has this rule being seriously considered across the state. Many would disagree. I've heard wanting a shot clock in high school fo as long as I remember.

8 states currently use it with Wisconsin joining and others looking to join. No state has removed the shot clock so it seems that it was a good enough rule to implement and not remove.

We keep talking about how progressing these athletes in basketball is the most important thing, but if any student wants to play basketball at any level after high school, a shot clock will be used.

High school athletes are developmentally able to play within the rules of a shot clock, there's very little reason to not implement a reasonable shot clock, and it seems the main one is so that coaches can channel their inner Dean Smith.

It just comes down to letting coaches, coach.  I hope they don't tell my doctor to amputate one of my limbs in case of an accident before he makes sure it is necessary.  Amputating the stall from high school basketball is not necessary because there are plenty of ways to control game tempo without a rule.  Colleges and the "next Level" have a shot clock for $$$$$.  They want to appease the fans and sell tickets.  It is not about the game for better or worse, it is about fans and $$$.   
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: AT on July 14, 2018, 11:33:17 am
Fans make football and basketball the most popular sports in Arkansas. To ignore them and the money they bring would be silly.

And yes, high school basketball has a seen a decline in attendance.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 14, 2018, 04:18:55 pm
Quote from: footballfan-tastic on July 14, 2018, 11:11:12 am
It just comes down to letting coaches, coach.  I hope they don't tell my doctor to amputate one of my limbs in case of an accident before he makes sure it is necessary.  Amputating the stall from high school basketball is not necessary because there are plenty of ways to control game tempo without a rule.  Colleges and the "next Level" have a shot clock for $$$$$.  They want to appease the fans and sell tickets.  It is not about the game for better or worse, it is about fans and $$$.

Why do all the anti shot clock people keep using dramatic and extreme examples to compare to getting a shot clock?? Sports are not the medical field......
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: footballfan-tastic on July 14, 2018, 09:33:04 pm
Quote from: beach bum on July 14, 2018, 04:18:55 pm
Why do all the anti shot clock people keep using dramatic and extreme examples to compare to getting a shot clock?? Sports are not the medical field......

LOL!!  So true.  Here's another analogy to help you.  Some years back Coca Cola Co. which was the most popular soda manufacturer by far got the bright idea to change the famous formula.  For the better of course and to even increase its share of what was a slowly declining leadership of the market.  It was all the rage with pre release taste test of the new product creating stock price increases and promise of sales increase and taste test reviews by the  fans fueling the move.   Then the release and the next few months was a disaster, with sales taking a beating.  Oh they kept new Coke as Coke II for a while and had Coke classic in return, campaign programs for both spent millions and the result.  Coke II is no longer available in the US.  They didn't realize what they had until it was gone. So you see leave well enough alone.  Don't need a change to fix something that isn't broken.  High school basketball is high school basketball, not college, not pro. One of these days it may change but a few states at this time and the NFHS being opposed at this time leads me to think this isn't the time.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: AT on July 14, 2018, 11:08:53 pm
Trying a bit too hard with the analogies IMO.

Shot clock is what all of these kids have watched their whole lives and it isn't a gimmick or just a rule for rule's sake. It's a tried and true part of the game
now. Hopefully Arkansas keeps trending towards using it. It'd be nice to be towards the lead on this.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: gameoflife on July 15, 2018, 10:50:17 am
Quote from: Almatrackster on July 14, 2018, 11:08:53 pm
Trying a bit too hard with the analogies IMO.

Shot clock is what all of these kids have watched their whole lives and it isn't a gimmick or just a rule for rule's sake. It's a tried and true part of the game
now. Hopefully Arkansas keeps trending towards using it. It'd be nice to be towards the lead on this.

I think what the folks who don't want it like the purity of the game as it is.  Why add a rule to force a type of play when that option is already available to any team or coach who wants to play that way.  I think I saw a post that compared this change to saying football offenses must run the hurry up no huddle.  Everyone has an opinion but nationally this is not the trend and I would defer to the NFHS who is against it at this time.   I'm sure they have studied the matter extensively.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: WarriorFan on July 15, 2018, 06:57:47 pm
I think High school basketball should be (2) 18 mins halves, and 35 sec shot clock.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on July 15, 2018, 07:20:50 pm
If we're on the dream list of rule changes, I wish AAA would allow 7 min or 8 min qtrs for 9th grade basketball.  Right now it's supposed to be 6 min.

It's a development stage and the games are just to short but they still have to follow AAA rules.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 15, 2018, 08:50:32 pm
I agree with the two immediate posts above mine. Warrior fan put it has two separate 18 minute halves. I have always thought the high school game should be a total of 36 minutes whether that is four quarters at 9 minutes or two halves at 18 a piece. And I agree with BG that 7 would be a strange number for JH quarters for a total of a 28 minute game....but I believe they should be at that too for junior high. 24 minute games for JH is quite short if you really think about it and maybe they should be lengthened 4 minutes in total. And I think 32 is quite short too for high school. It would make depth or conditioning come into play more by slightly lengthening the games. Kids would have to learn how to play defense without fouling more efficiently as well.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: footballfan-tastic on July 16, 2018, 12:22:56 pm
All the suggested rule changes are open for the consideration of the AAA.  I'm sure they will think long and hard prior to making a change that all schools must follow.  Some questions still are unanswered.  At which level would the shot clock be implemented?  7th grade, 9th grade?  Sr High?  As for extending the length of the game, that I could support although I think the quarter format is ok.  It gives the athletes a mandatory rest and while you make like the idea of it making conditioning a bigger part of the game, it also is a health/safety  rule.  Sort of like footballs mandatory time outs during the hottest part of the early season.  When the majority of AAA officials and advisory board deem it beneficial and the NFHS allow it without penalty I reckon it will happen.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: WarriorFan on July 17, 2018, 01:23:58 pm
As for the conditioning part, if the the quarters were extended or two halves. I would think it would allow coaches to develop more players. They wouldn't have to play all the allotted time. More substitutions maybe?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: motivate on July 17, 2018, 08:59:34 pm
This rule change would be about as good as the combined conferences from the past two year. A major mistake, no more working the ball side to side for a good shot, taking away the slower teams ability to stay in the game by forcing them to play faster, and really would affect the end of games when your up 6 with 2 minutes left by not forcing the other team to come out and play defense.
If you add a shot clock then take away the 10 second back court call too.
I really feel it would be bad for basketball, I'm sure all the big school are wanting it.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 17, 2018, 09:06:17 pm
Quote from: motivate on July 17, 2018, 08:59:34 pm
This rule change would be about as good as the combined conferences from the past two year. A major mistake, no more working the ball side to side for a good shot, taking away the slower teams ability to stay in the game by forcing them to play faster, and really would affect the end of games when your up 6 with 2 minutes left by not forcing the other team to come out and play defense.
If you add a shot clock then take away the 10 second back court call too.
I really feel it would be bad for basketball, I'm sure all the big school are wanting it.


Then why have other levels of basketball used it for 3 decades now? If it was so bad would they not have gone back to no shot clock? Let's just go back to no three pointer's then either right?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: HorseFeathers on July 17, 2018, 10:05:36 pm
Quote from: beach bum on July 17, 2018, 09:06:17 pm

Then why have other levels of basketball used it for 3 decades now? If it was so bad would they not have gone back to no shot clock? Let's just go back to no three pointer's then either right?

Just do away with the 3, Pisol Pete didn't need it to set a scoring record 😉
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on July 17, 2018, 10:08:43 pm
Lots of doomsday opinions here.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: bluegrassboy75 on July 18, 2018, 11:02:07 am
Quote from: footballfan-tastic on July 16, 2018, 12:22:56 pm
When the majority of AAA officials and advisory board deem it beneficial and the NFHS allow it without penalty I reckon it will happen.

Bingo on the last part of you post!!  The AAA will not approve it for regular season as long as the NFHS doesn't recognize it or says that a state can specifically adopt it without penalty (examples are the new coaches box and the mercy rule).  If they did, they would lose all voting rights for any other rules. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on July 18, 2018, 05:47:50 pm
Quote from: beach bum on July 17, 2018, 09:06:17 pm

Then why have other levels of basketball used it for 3 decades now? If it was so bad would they not have gone back to no shot clock? Let's just go back to no three pointer's then either right?

Are you saying that basketball has gotten better in the last 3 decades?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: gameoflife on July 18, 2018, 07:31:57 pm
Quote from: Moonshiner on July 18, 2018, 05:47:50 pm
Are you saying that basketball has gotten better in the last 3 decades?

Hmmmm!  Looks like someone has a different opinion.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Rayburn on July 19, 2018, 12:24:17 pm
Quote from: B.G. on July 11, 2018, 06:15:47 pm
I think you would find kids would rather have a shot clock.
Kids would rather do a lot of things adults don't let them, because we know better what's good for them. A shot clock at this level would lower the skill level and work ethic of the players, and thus the quality of the game at every level.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Rayburn on July 19, 2018, 12:25:49 pm
Quote from: beach bum on July 13, 2018, 01:10:11 pm
High school athletics is about the kids, period. There are too many coaches in this profession who put their egos above the kids.
Yet you're arguing for a rule change based on what's good for the fans.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 19, 2018, 12:29:33 pm
Quote from: gameoflife on July 18, 2018, 07:31:57 pm
Hmmmm!  Looks like someone has a different opinion.


What opinion is there to it? We literally have 7 feet tall people who can shoot three's and handle the ball comfortably. We have 6'6" to 6'10" guys in the NBA who can guard multiple positions switching on screens. I seriously hope you are not one of those people who thinks teams from the 70's and 80's could beat teams today? Even Steve Kerr who played in a different era and now coaches in one in today's world has admitted the game is far superior now by the fact that the caliber of athlete we have to play them game. People can stretch the floor more than ever before with range that is insane sometimes. College is probably not better because the one and done's with the best talent leaving in one year, maybe two at the most. If they stayed in college it would be far superior too. I am glad they leave too though. Why play a game for free when you can be paid instead.....Good for them. leaving.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 19, 2018, 12:31:13 pm
Quote from: Rayburn on July 19, 2018, 12:25:49 pm
Yet you're arguing for a rule change based on what's good for the fans.


I don't think I have ever once mentioned the fans....
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 19, 2018, 12:31:57 pm
Quote from: Rayburn on July 19, 2018, 12:24:17 pm
Kids would rather do a lot of things adults don't let them, because we know better what's good for them. A shot clock at this level would lower the skill level and work ethic of the players, and thus the quality of the game at every level.

Huh? Lol... Ok how then?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on July 19, 2018, 04:50:56 pm
Quote from: Rayburn on July 19, 2018, 12:24:17 pm
Kids would rather do a lot of things adults don't let them, because we know better what's good for them. A shot clock at this level would lower the skill level and work ethic of the players, and thus the quality of the game at every level.
That's an opinion.  I respect that.

But it's not an absolute or a fact.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on July 19, 2018, 06:43:08 pm
Quote from: beach bum on July 19, 2018, 12:29:33 pm

What opinion is there to it? We literally have 7 feet tall people who can shoot three's and handle the ball comfortably. We have 6'6" to 6'10" guys in the NBA who can guard multiple positions switching on screens. I seriously hope you are not one of those people who thinks teams from the 70's and 80's could beat teams today? Even Steve Kerr who played in a different era and now coaches in one in today's world has admitted the game is far superior now by the fact that the caliber of athlete we have to play them game. People can stretch the floor more than ever before with range that is insane sometimes. College is probably not better because the one and done's with the best talent leaving in one year, maybe two at the most. If they stayed in college it would be far superior too. I am glad they leave too though. Why play a game for free when you can be paid instead.....Good for them. leaving.

Yo do realize that Lebron and KD aren't the first tall players to stretch the floor?
Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were both 6'9".  Scottie Pippin was 6'8".
Athletically speaking, today's players are far more athletic.  But in regard to skill, toughness, and understanding the game?  Shooting percentages, as a whole, have dropped off greatly.  So, in the opinion of many, the game has not gotten better.
More athletic, but not in other areas.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on July 19, 2018, 09:00:28 pm
Quote from: Moonshiner on July 19, 2018, 06:43:08 pm
Yo do realize that Lebron and KD aren't the first tall players to stretch the floor?
Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were both 6'9".  Scottie Pippin was 6'8".
Athletically speaking, today's players are far more athletic.  But in regard to skill, toughness, and understanding the game?  Shooting percentages, as a whole, have dropped off greatly.  So, in the opinion of many, the game has not gotten better.
More athletic, but not in other areas.


You're leaving out the part where that is because there are way more three pointers taken in today's game than before in the NBA so of course the shooting percentage has gone down, but you're forgetting that shooting 34% from the three point line will get you 102 points while you have to shoot 51% from two's to get that same 102 point total so the efficiency of the game has gone up. So shooting 34% from three's is even more efficient than 50% from two's technically. Analytics have proven how efficient the current Warriors are because of the three pointers and that is what the Rockets figured out too and they may have won had Chris Paul not went out in the series. And you are throwing out a few examples of rangy, athletic guys from 6'8" to 6'10"..... Now the league is just littered with them. You know that there is way more of those guys or you are kidding yourself if you don't think that.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on July 19, 2018, 10:00:43 pm
Quote from: beach bum on July 19, 2018, 09:00:28 pm

You're leaving out the part where that is because there are way more three pointers taken in today's game than before in the NBA so of course the shooting percentage has gone down, but you're forgetting that shooting 34% from the three point line will get you 102 points while you have to shoot 51% from two's to get that same 102 point total so the efficiency of the game has gone up. So shooting 34% from three's is even more efficient than 50% from two's technically. Analytics have proven how efficient the current Warriors are because of the three pointers and that is what the Rockets figured out too and they may have won had Chris Paul not went out in the series. And you are throwing out a few examples of rangy, athletic guys from 6'8" to 6'10"..... Now the league is just littered with them. You know that there is way more of those guys or you are kidding yourself if you don't think that.

You're a "Money Ball" guy aren't you?
I could've listed several more rangey guys.  Brad Sellers, Bernard King etc...
Our entire civilization is taller than we were back then. 
The reason there are more threes taken has a lot to do with the disappearance of the post game.  There are no dominant centers anymore.
That still isn't proof that the game has improved in the last 30 years.
Have you even been alive that long?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: HorseFeathers on July 21, 2018, 02:12:58 pm
How many high school teams shoot 34% from 3? I watch A LOT of small school ball....the drop off of the # of good teams seems to correlate with the number of coaches(and fans) that want those fancy Golden State Run and Gun offense implemented...and that's just from the last 10 years.

Shooting 34% from 3 might be more efficient...but if you don't have the shooters, or your shooters go ice cold from 3...you're done..

But this has literally nothing to do with a shot clock lol
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on July 22, 2018, 03:05:35 am
Quote from: HorseFeathers on July 21, 2018, 02:12:58 pm
How many high school teams shoot 34% from 3? I watch A LOT of small school ball....the drop off of the # of good teams seems to correlate with the number of coaches(and fans) that want those fancy Golden State Run and Gun offense implemented...and that's just from the last 10 years.

Shooting 34% from 3 might be more efficient...but if you don't have the shooters, or your shooters go ice cold from 3...you're done..

But this has literally nothing to do with a shot clock lol

Agreed.   I said this earlier...but...I think running the football is boring.   So...let's make football pass at least twice per 4 downs....and....a girl has to be the QB every other down....like PE class.   I know that whistle britches will tell me that I'm being over dramatic, but I firmly believe that as a faN I have a right.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on September 03, 2018, 08:49:19 am
NC and Texas adding shot clock.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on September 03, 2018, 01:38:03 pm
Quote from: B.G. on September 03, 2018, 08:49:19 am
NC and Texas adding shot clock.


And what do you know.... States with far superior basketball than ours which will leave our state even further in the dust when producing talent to take to the next level!
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: HorseFeathers on September 03, 2018, 08:04:15 pm
Quote from: beach bum on September 03, 2018, 01:38:03 pm

And what do you know.... States with far superior basketball than ours which will leave our state even further in the dust when producing talent to take to the next level!

Our state isn't in their dust to begin with....We see the dust cloud on the distant horizon...Shot clock won't change that....🤷
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: sevenof400 on September 28, 2018, 08:09:58 pm
Quote from: B.G. on September 03, 2018, 08:49:19 am
NC and Texas adding shot clock.

Has anyone seen any guidance from any state HS athletic association on how table procedures should change? 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: sevenof400 on November 18, 2018, 07:41:33 pm
Since this issue has lost interest for a bit, let's see where things are now:

AAA has (on its website) the following:
AAA 2018-2019 Shot Clock Experiment Application (35-SECOND – BOYS AND GIRLS)

At present, this is all I can find for procedures for the shot clock operator:

GUIDELINES FOR SHOT CLOCK OPERATORS

BEFORE THE GAME
PREGAME with game officials.
The shot clock horn should be distinctly different from the game clock horn. Sound the horn for game
officials during the pregame conference.
During pregame observe officials signal to reset shot clock and develop communication to correct on
the shot clock timing errors.
Be familiar with the shot clock RECALL button.
Be patient to reset the shot clock.
The game officials will decide any questions in regards to ball hitting or missing the rim, score or no score, ball leaving the hand or not leaving the hand within the shot clock time.

DURING THE COURSE OF THE GAME:
Starting the shot clock – Initial Jump Ball
When the basketball is tossed by the game official, be patient to start the shot clock. Keep in mind
that the game clock will start once the ball is tipped by one or both jumpers. However, the shot clock must start when the ball is possessed or controlled by one of the players on either team.
Starting the shot clock – On Throw-Ins
Once the game official gives the signal to start the game clock. It applies to shot clock. Once the ball is legally touched in bounds on a throw-in by either team player all clocks must start.
Starting the shot clock – On Rebounds following a try after the ball hits the ring.
Once the try hits the ring, reset the shot clock and start it once of the players gain possession of the ball.
Stopping the shot clock.
Stop the shot clock on every official whistle. Do not reset the shot clock, wait on the official's signal. The shot clock recall will be useful if the shot clock is reset in error. The game official will give you the signal if a reset is required.
Stop the shot clock when a players try hits their ring. Reset the shot clock and start it once a player secures the rebound, OR on a made try. Reset the shot clock and start it once the throw-in is touched by either team player.
Resetting the shot clock
Reset the shot clock on a change of possession.
Reset the shot clock when a players try hits the ring.
Reset the shot clock on fouls.
Reset the shot clock on a defensive kickball violation to 15 seconds in shot clock displays 14 seconds
or below.
Pregame shot clock reset and signals with shot clock operator. During pregame listen to shot clock
horn. If either shot clock is not working, no shot clock will be used.
Official shot clock signals
Reset Two fingers held above the head and moved in a circular motion. Violation One hand held flat above the head and moved in a tapping a motion.


2018-19 Statistics for AAA Shot Clock Experiment
PLEASE APPOINT a reliable statistician and have him or her collect data requested on this form. THIS FORM SHALL BE RETURNED TO THE AAA OFFICE WITHIN TWO WEEKS OF THE COMPLETION OF THE EVENT.
Do not combine BOYS and GIRLS statistics on the same form.
DATA TO BE SECURED FROM THE SCOREBOOK
BOYS __________ GIRLS __________ Competition TOTAL NUMBER OF GAMES included in this report ______
TOTAL SCORE: WINNERS ______ LOSERS ______
TOTAL TIME: HOURS ______ MINUTES ______ DO NOT AVERAGE
THE FOLLOWING ARE TOTALS FOR BOTH TEAMS AND ALL GAMES (DO NOT AVERAGE)
_______ Total number of PERSONAL FOULS throughout game
_______ Total number of PERSONAL FOULS IN FOURTH QUARTER only _______ Total number of PERSONAL DISQUALFIED WITH FIVE FOULS _______ Total number of THROWS ATTEMPTED (personal or technical fouls) _______ Total number of SUCCESSFUL FREE THROWS
_______ Total number of TWO-POINT FIELD GOALS ATTEMPTED
_______ Total number of SUCCESSFUL TWO-POINT FIELD GOALS
_______ Total number of THREE-POINT FIELD GOALS ATTEMPTED
_______ Total number of THREE-POINT FIELD GOALS
Administrative Questions:
What was your equipment cost for the shot clock:
What was the compensation for the shot clock operator:
Describe any issues or problems with securing an individual to operate the shot clock:
     SCHOOL SUBMITTING: SIGNATURE:
DATE:
___________________________________________ ___________________________________________ ___________________________________________
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: sevenof400 on November 18, 2018, 07:43:05 pm
Clearly, AAA is expecting the shot clock to require another dedicated person at the scorer's table because in reading the responsibilities, there is NO WAY the current clock operator or book keeper could fulfill these duties. 

Also, for those schools who have a person (or persons) running a big board (with individual player points and fouls) and / or a PA announcer, I don't see those individuals being able to effectively serve two functions here. 

What have y'all seen in the field for schools that have actually tried this - and more importantly - was it working? 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Head Lion on November 23, 2018, 07:14:39 pm
I would love to see, but with the quality of officiating, it would be just one more thing to get screwed up.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Flobbito on December 06, 2018, 01:23:31 pm
Quote from: Head Lion on November 23, 2018, 07:14:39 pm
I would love to see, but with the quality of officiating, it would be just one more thing to get screwed up.

+1
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: footballfan-tastic on December 12, 2018, 10:38:27 am
Quote from: Flobbito on December 06, 2018, 01:23:31 pm
+1

Officials have plenty on their plate already, and you want to add to that?  You also are going to put an additional strain on the clock keepers.   Good defense can set the tempo so I'm not a big fan of the clock in HS.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Pick_DA_EAGLES on December 12, 2018, 10:48:16 am
Quote from: footballfan-tastic on December 12, 2018, 10:38:27 am
Officials have plenty on their plate already, and you want to add to that?  You also are going to put an additional strain on the clock keepers.   Good defense can set the tempo so I'm not a big fan of the clock in HS.


I believe the big issue would be the clock operator =, heck they have enough problems keeping the score right, much less the time and a shot clock.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: VHSCoach2 on December 12, 2018, 01:40:04 pm
Quote from: pick_DA_EAGLES on December 12, 2018, 10:48:16 am

I believe the big issue would be the clock operator =, heck they have enough problems keeping the score right, much less the time and a shot clock.

What I have seen, most schools use a three-man table crew. One will operate the "big board," i.e., player points/fouls, team timeouts, and serve as the PA guy, one will keep the official book, and one will keep the clock, score, team fouls, and sub horn.

In these instances, none of them would be able to keep the shot clock on top of their duties; so, more than likely, a fourth person would be needed at most scoring tables just to keep the shot clock.

This still has nothing on college scoring tables, though. Just the other day, we had close to 15 at UCA's table during a women's basketball game.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Pick_DA_EAGLES on December 12, 2018, 01:42:10 pm
Quote from: VHSCoach2 on December 12, 2018, 01:40:04 pm
What I have seen, most schools use a three-man table crew. One will operate the "big board," i.e., player points/fouls, team timeouts, and serve as the PA guy, one will keep the official book, and one will keep the clock, score, team fouls, and sub horn.

In these instances, none of them would be able to keep the shot clock on top of their duties; so, more than likely, a fourth person would be needed at most scoring tables just to keep the shot clock.

This still has nothing on college scoring tables, though. Just the other day, we had close to 15 at UCA's table during a women's basketball game.

I can see that being a must
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: HorseFeathers on December 24, 2018, 08:48:14 am
https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2018/dec/24/prep-basketball-on-the-clock-20181224/#.XCDHc2tLkrw.twitter
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on December 24, 2018, 09:38:50 am
Kansas just voted against it.
http://www.newstribune.com/news/sports/prep/story/2018/dec/23/press-box-shot-clock-not-necessary-high-school-basketball/757931/

At some point, AD's will be more in tune to what more and more of the stewards of the game want and not look at it as a $$$ issue.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: HorseFeathers on December 24, 2018, 10:05:07 am
Quote from: B.G. on December 24, 2018, 09:38:50 am
Kansas just voted against it.
http://www.newstribune.com/news/sports/prep/story/2018/dec/23/press-box-shot-clock-not-necessary-high-school-basketball/757931/

At some point, AD's will be more in tune to what more and more of the stewards of the game want and not look at it as a $$$ issue.

I think it's more pushback from "old school" coaches that money.... I do think it's more of a matter of when and not if shot clocks are used
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: CoachWhoever on December 29, 2018, 08:43:37 pm
Arkansas MUST go to a shot clock. I'm tired of hearing that it takes away strategy. That's a load of bs. How many times have you worked up a masterful plan, kept the game close. Given yourself a chance...only to have the 4th quarter roll around and the superior team pull away? They can back you out and hold the ball. Make you come guard them. A shot clock will help lesser teams. Money? I've priced them. They are cheap. There's literally no excuse to vote against it.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on December 29, 2018, 11:58:58 pm
Quote from: B.G. on December 24, 2018, 09:38:50 am
Kansas just voted against it.
http://www.newstribune.com/news/sports/prep/story/2018/dec/23/press-box-shot-clock-not-necessary-high-school-basketball/757931/

At some point, AD's will be more in tune to what more and more of the stewards of the game want and not look at it as a $$$ issue.

Maybe
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: sevenof400 on December 30, 2018, 10:28:29 am
Quote from: CoachWhoever on December 29, 2018, 08:43:37 pm
Arkansas MUST go to a shot clock. I'm tired of hearing that it takes away strategy. That's a load of bs. How many times have you worked up a masterful plan, kept the game close. Given yourself a chance...only to have the 4th quarter roll around and the superior team pull away? They can back you out and hold the ball. Make you come guard them. A shot clock will help lesser teams. Money? I've priced them. They are cheap. There's literally no excuse to vote against it.

Defense.
It's a wonderful thing. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: HorseFeathers on December 30, 2018, 10:37:07 am
Quote from: sevenof400 on December 30, 2018, 10:28:29 am
Defense.
It's a wonderful thing. 

What I get out of most of the Pro-Shot Clock posts is that their appalled at the idea of it might be the defenses fault for letting a team hold the ball at half court 🤷


BTW I don't care either way on the shot clock, from the two years I've seen it used at the Hoops for Hunger tournament in Russellville, there's been a lot more operator mess ups than their have been shot clock violations/plays effected by it 🤷
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: no mascot on December 30, 2018, 10:55:35 am
Does anyone else think that we'd see a lot of older refs get out of the profession if hey have to learn how to work w a shot clock?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: blueandwhite on December 30, 2018, 11:09:02 am
Quote from: CoachWhoever on December 29, 2018, 08:43:37 pm
Arkansas MUST go to a shot clock. I'm tired of hearing that it takes away strategy. That's a load of bs. How many times have you worked up a masterful plan, kept the game close. Given yourself a chance...only to have the 4th quarter roll around and the superior team pull away? They can back you out and hold the ball. Make you come guard them. A shot clock will help lesser teams. Money? I've priced them. They are cheap. There's literally no excuse to vote against it.

Ok, let's make it fair for the losing/less superior team in every sport when they are behind near the end of the game.
In football, we will shorten the play clock for the winning/superior team in the fourth quarter.

In the 7th inning of baseball and softball, we will use modified version of the softball international tie breaking procedure. If the losing team is down 1, they can put a runner on 2nd base to start the inning. If they are are down 2 runs, put a runner on 2nd and 3rd base. If they are down by 3 or more, load the bases to start the inning.

In volleyball, the winning team can only play with 5 players if they are up 2 sets to 0.

In soccer, the winning team will have to pull their goalie at certain time of the game, to give the losing team a chance.

Or here is a better idea, the losing/less superior team just gets better.

I hate it when I hear people say, "We lost on a last second shot," or "We lost because the other team held the ball for the entire fourth quarter." No you lost because you missed 3 open layups in the first 3 quarters, or you shot 30% from the free throw line, or you had 20 turnovers, etc.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: sevenof400 on December 30, 2018, 11:41:06 am
Quote from: no mascot on December 30, 2018, 10:55:35 am
Does anyone else think that we'd see a lot of older refs get out of the profession if hey have to learn how to work w a shot clock?

As there have been rule changes all along, I don't see why this specific rule change would cause any more referee attrition than there already is. 
I can see where the need for a meaningful pregame conference with the scorers table would increase - and I think that would be a positive development as a good number of referees sort of take things for granted at the scorers table. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on December 30, 2018, 11:51:36 am
https://www.whig.com/20180416/shot-clock-in-high-school-basketball-its-a-matter-of-when-not-if#
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Gray lizard on January 02, 2019, 03:10:39 pm
I attended the Hoops for Hunger in Russellville the past two years. I watched up to 4 to 5 games each day.  I for one saw several stoppage of the games due to the shot clock operation. If it becomes a rule table workers as well a officials will require a single person to watch the clock. I also noticed most teams that were affected by the clock were the teams that worked for a good open shot. I for one don't care to see high school basket ball turn into who can jack up the most shots.  Good defense can turn the ball over to keep a team from holding the ball. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: MDXPHD on January 02, 2019, 07:28:02 pm
Quote from: beach bum on July 09, 2018, 09:59:56 pm
A shot clock is not near as radical as what you just stated above.... Don't be so dramatic and exaggerate that impact about the change to a shot clock.

I would think it would be compared to a play clock, not anything he just mentioned. He's obviously dramatic and can't think logically when he gets fired up.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on January 02, 2019, 07:55:26 pm
But the shot clock is a Chinese conspiracy to make our coaches be lazy like they want to  ::) .... They just want to be lazy remember??
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: HorseFeathers on January 02, 2019, 08:36:15 pm
Quote from: beach bum on January 02, 2019, 07:55:26 pm
But the shot clock is a Chinese conspiracy to make our coaches be lazy like they want to  ::) .... They just want to be lazy remember??

Maybe the shot clock will bring back the mid-range game?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on January 02, 2019, 10:49:22 pm
Quote from: MDXPHD on January 02, 2019, 07:28:02 pm
I would think it would be compared to a play clock, not anything he just mentioned. He's obviously dramatic and can't think logically when he gets fired up.

I've never been accused of thinking logically.  You must be a slow reader because my comment, and the reply, are quite old. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Ice Water on January 03, 2019, 01:01:21 am
Will someone explain the shot clock vs football play clock comparison? I'm struggling to understand this one. Without a play clock, and to an extent even with it, a team is bleeding the clock without the ball in play. Without a shot clock, there is still live gameplay taking place during the milking phase.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Flobbito on January 03, 2019, 06:17:24 am
Quote from: Ice Water on January 03, 2019, 01:01:21 am
Will someone explain the shot clock vs football play clock comparison? I'm struggling to understand this one. Without a play clock, and to an extent even with it, a team is bleeding the clock without the ball in play. Without a shot clock, there is still live gameplay taking place during the milking phase.

Yeah, I don't think you can compare the two, a fair comparison would be to limit the time of a potential play in football to eliminate circus plays like the multiple lateral plays that take 20-25 seconds to complete. Limiting the amount of time in a football play to say 15 seconds then the play is blown dead. A better comparison would be the football play clock to the five second inbound rule for basketball. Obviously both are needed.

Baseball pitch clock, same thing as the football play clock basically, with a big difference being that there isn't a predetermined amount of time in which a baseball game has to be played.  These seems like something the TV stations pushed for to prevent games running into other time slots.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Oldref on January 03, 2019, 09:02:07 am
I just dont see the urgency to add the expense of a shot clock to every school. I have been to a zillion games the past 55 or so years and I can only remember a handful of stall tactics that resulted in a really low final score. I do remember a few years ago Armorell and ICC both elected to stall against Bay in the regionals in back to back games and the score was low for a half.  Bay mercy ruled both in the second half after turning up the defensive pressure.


I see games now that the attendance in some places doesnt even pay the cost of the officials and clock keepers. Cost verses benefits just doesnt seem to be worth it to me since it so rarely even happens. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on January 03, 2019, 12:41:18 pm
Quote from: Oldref on January 03, 2019, 09:02:07 am
I just dont see the urgency to add the expense of a shot clock to every school. I have been to a zillion games the past 55 or so years and I can only remember a handful of stall tactics that resulted in a really low final score. I do remember a few years ago Armorell and ICC both elected to stall against Bay in the regionals in back to back games and the score was low for a half.  Bay mercy ruled both in the second half after turning up the defensive pressure.


I see games now that the attendance in some places doesnt even pay the cost of the officials and clock keepers. Cost verses benefits just doesnt seem to be worth it to me since it so rarely even happens. Just my opinion.

And a very good point.  Larger schools have larger athletic budgets.  I know that a class A school, which most don't care about, will barely make enough to cover the increasing cost of officials on any given night.  Gate keepers, and two table officials add to the cost.  Now we add a third person that has to be paid?  Where does that money come from?
Increase the admission cost you might say.  In most of these rural areas that will just mean more moms and dads will stay home.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: riccoar on January 04, 2019, 12:28:10 pm
I would think that the board operator could do both.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on January 04, 2019, 04:02:52 pm
Northark had some repeated issues with their shot clock  the last couple days
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: sevenof400 on January 04, 2019, 04:54:21 pm
Quote from: riccoar on January 04, 2019, 12:28:10 pm
I would think that the board operator could do both.

As someone who works a table, I can tell you this won't work.
BUT, let me be clear on one thing - what are you considering a board operator?  The person who runs the scoreboard or the person who runs the player board (the board listing individual players, their point and fouls)?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on January 04, 2019, 08:21:03 pm
Quote from: sevenof400 on January 04, 2019, 04:54:21 pm
As someone who works a table, I can tell you this won't work.
BUT, let me be clear on one thing - what are you considering a board operator?  The person who runs the scoreboard or the person who runs the player board (the board listing individual players, their point and fouls)?


I think they should just adapt the current American working model that seems to be doing quite well for those in charge..... Have the people do more work, but don't expect anything more for the effort put into it. That seems to make all the people I know in that situation very, very happy   ;D .... The people at the scorer's table can give it a go now, and see how it works for them. Just a thought..
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: sevenof400 on January 04, 2019, 10:15:58 pm
We really need that sarcasm button...
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Moonshiner on January 05, 2019, 01:09:36 am
Quote from: beach bum on January 04, 2019, 08:21:03 pm

I think they should just adapt the current American working model that seems to be doing quite well for those in charge..... Have the people do more work, but don't expect anything more for the effort put into it. That seems to make all the people I know in that situation very, very happy   ;D .... The people at the scorer's table can give it a go now, and see how it works for them. Just a thought..

You really have no clue how things work in high schools do you.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: riccoar on January 07, 2019, 11:37:27 am
Quote from: sevenof400 on January 04, 2019, 04:54:21 pm
As someone who works a table, I can tell you this won't work.
BUT, let me be clear on one thing - what are you considering a board operator?  The person who runs the scoreboard or the person who runs the player board (the board listing individual players, their point and fouls)?
The games I've seen you have one person running the scoreboard and the other person doing official scoring manually in a book.  I'm taking a big assumption that they would just produce scoring boxes that are integrated with a shot clock.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Rocket23 on January 07, 2019, 12:59:37 pm
This will be a disaster for most schools.  The shot clock is the most difficult as the operator must pay close attention as they do not have a whistle to listen for, an officials' signal to watch for.  I have officiated high school and college ball for 33 years and worked shot clock years ago for Lady Razorbacks and once for Hogs' game and it is way harder than you think.  One must pay constant attention.  It is a constant battle even at some of my DII, DIII and judo games.

At the high school level it would add another element for the officials as well.

Quote from: riccoar on January 04, 2019, 12:28:10 pm
I would think that the board operator could do both.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: nuttinbuthogs on January 09, 2019, 06:00:13 pm
Shot clock is there for the fans.  A good coach can set tempo with his style of play on offense or defense to help his team depending on need and ability.  I don't see how anyone thinks a shot clock helps the lesser team.  Now they can run down the floor and be forced to take a shot whether they are ready or not and whether they have good shooters or not.  How does that help?  Oh yeah, they don't have to play defense for more than 35 seconds, unless the other team misses a shot and gets their own rebound.   So you give the bad team  an advantage of playing quick offense and not play defense for more than 35 seconds.  Can't see that as an advantage.  The better team, doesn't need to stall the ball so they don't need the entire 35 seconds on offense and they probably play better defense so they keep the poorer team from getting off a decent shot.  Why can't teams just play whatever style is best for the kids they have and that the coach, who is hired to make those decisions, thinks best?
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: RATTLER43 on January 10, 2019, 11:48:14 am
Quote from: nuttinbuthogs on January 09, 2019, 06:00:13 pm
Shot clock is there for the fans.  A good coach can set tempo with his style of play on offense or defense to help his team depending on need and ability.  I don't see how anyone thinks a shot clock helps the lesser team.  Now they can run down the floor and be forced to take a shot whether they are ready or not and whether they have good shooters or not.  How does that help?  Oh yeah, they don't have to play defense for more than 35 seconds, unless the other team misses a shot and gets their own rebound.   So you give the bad team  an advantage of playing quick offense and not play defense for more than 35 seconds.  Can't see that as an advantage.  The better team, doesn't need to stall the ball so they don't need the entire 35 seconds on offense and they probably play better defense so they keep the poorer team from getting off a decent shot.  Why can't teams just play whatever style is best for the kids they have and that the coach, who is hired to make those decisions, thinks best?

I think the shot clock is coming, but I agree with most everything you mentioned.  I actually like the pro game, the college game, and the high school games each having their own identities.  I love high school basketball just the way it is.  I love up-tempo games, I love shooting fests, I love intense defensive games, and have thoroughly enjoyed when a team with less talent overcame more athleticism by coaching, slow-down, fundamentally sound ball-handling, and great offensive schemes.   High school rules allow for great coaches to coach the style which gives their team the best opportunity to win.  But, I still think it is coming...
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: AT on January 24, 2019, 10:18:59 am
https://twitter.com/5NEWSAndrew/status/1083913134514020352

Not sure how twitter videos work on here now, but go to that link if you can and watch that video. I'd like to hear opinions on both sides of this argument about that.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: RATTLER43 on January 24, 2019, 11:49:49 am
Depends on your philosophy.   Is high school ball about the fans or the kids? Is it about trying to find the best way to win or to entertain?   Are those kids (on both teams) doing what is giving them their best chance to win?   

I have done it as a player against a vastly superior team.  They had beaten us by 20+ twice.  We stalled (passing, screening, and cutting hard because they came out and defended us) and played them a 1-point game in the semifinals with us missing a last second shot from 8 feet (albeit over an imposing center's outreached arms).    I was glad we gave ourselves a chance to win.  Didn't, as an athlete, care what our fans thought.  I was there to win.

I coached it (rarely; I preferred aggressive in your grill man to man defense with transition).   In horrible foul trouble with a small lead against the top team in our conference.  We stalled the entire 3rd quarter effectively.    We also had a very effective end of game "stall" if we possessed a sizeable lead.   

I had a clipping from the 80s where an athletically inferior girls team stalled an entire game and lost something like 8-4.   

I wouldn't want to sit in stands and watch a stationary player dribble for an entire game (or an entire quarter for that matter), but I am of the philosophy that the opposing team determines if they are going to defend or not.   And I firmly believe in a coach and team doing what gives the best opportunity to win.

All of this post is opinion about high school basketball.   And it is the opinion of an old guy.   I loved the old Princeton teams giving fits to #1 and #2 seeds back in the day with Pete Carril at the helm.  The '89 game vs. Georgetown was a thing of beauty as was the 'mid 90s game vs. UCLA.  See, that's why I say it is a matter of philosophy and opinion. 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Flobbito on February 25, 2019, 06:40:46 pm
I've seen the stall ball quite a bit in the district and regional tournaments, I don't think High School is ready for it yet.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Mulerider4Life on February 26, 2019, 09:34:08 am
Hope the shot clock happens full time next year.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: sevenof400 on February 26, 2019, 11:36:01 am
Quote from: Mulerider4Life on February 26, 2019, 09:34:08 am
Hope the shot clock happens full time next year.

A pox on you!    ;D ;D
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: AT on February 26, 2019, 02:03:44 pm
I find myself wavering on this argument. I was pro-shot clock, but now I find myself on the fence.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: SouthpawSensation on February 26, 2019, 09:46:16 pm
Quote from: Mulerider4Life on February 26, 2019, 09:34:08 am
Hope the shot clock happens full time next year.
Highly unlikely. Word is the AAA will apply for another year to experiment with the shot clock, and the NFHS will allow up to 3 years for experiments.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Mulerider4Life on February 27, 2019, 12:30:06 pm
Quote from: SouthpawSensation on February 26, 2019, 09:46:16 pm
Highly unlikely. Word is the AAA will apply for another year to experiment with the shot clock, and the NFHS will allow up to 3 years for experiments.

That's the AAA for you.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on March 05, 2020, 05:11:59 pm
Quote from: B.G. on June 07, 2018, 04:13:09 pm
The AAA has authorized usage of a 35 sec shot clock in n/c tournaments this season.  Already at least 2 I can think of have done it in recent years.

I know there is a big push coming from some schools.

I'm connected to the Bulldog Classic held in Fayetteville the first week of December and the plan is to have the shot clocks installed in both full size gyms for this event.  This tournament is 8 boys and 8 girls teams.
  UPDATE  This will not happen at this event this year.

Discussion stage has reached action stage in some cases.  Downside always involves cost for equipment and subsequently a solely dedicated clock operator



And THERE it is.

35 sec clock for 2020-21 in 6A is a done deal.

Other classes will vote on it case by case.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: HorseFeathers on March 05, 2020, 06:42:38 pm
Quote from: B.G. on March 05, 2020, 05:11:59 pm
And THERE it is.

35 sec clock for 2020-21 in 6A is a done deal.

Other classes will vote on it case by case.

Be kinda interesting if every class but one agreed to having shot clocks
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: beach bum on March 05, 2020, 07:08:46 pm
Quote from: HorseFeathers on March 05, 2020, 06:42:38 pm
Be kinda interesting if every class but one agreed to having shot clocks

4A? LOL
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: sevenof400 on March 06, 2020, 09:43:20 am
I had heard this was for conference play only and B.G.'s post did not clearly address this but will it also be for state tournament play as well? 
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on June 10, 2020, 12:43:29 pm
And now the AAA board has approved for All classes for 22-23 season.

Still will need the overall vote later in the summer but there you go.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: LeftyWorld on June 10, 2020, 12:49:34 pm
Quote from: B.G. on June 10, 2020, 12:43:29 pm
And now the AAA board has approved for All classes for 22-23 season.

Still will need the overall vote later in the summer but there you go.

Best thing I've heard in a while! This is much needed. It'll be interesting to see how quickly schools/Conferences/classifications start implementing it
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Brian G on August 03, 2020, 05:09:04 pm
And now a little over 2 years since the opening post, the AAA will implement in ALL classifications for the start of the 2022-23 season.

But as already foretold. 6A will start with it this year.
Title: Re: Shot Clock Gaining Steam
Post by: Lanny on August 04, 2020, 11:32:54 am
Thank you AAA.  It's hard to call a basketball game on the radio without a shot clock.