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Help me understand...

Started by byrdphan, March 04, 2017, 08:39:00 pm

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byrdphan

I am a huge high school basketball fan from Oklahoma, and after observing the past three seasons of Arkansas high school girls basketball playoffs, I am left scratching my head a little...especially after watching what went down in the 2A girls state tournament this week.

It just seems to me that the process is unfair in many regards. I wish the Arkansas Activities Association would take a look at the way the Oklahoma Secondary Schools Activities Association does their basketball playoffs and then mirror them.

1. How can a team that has been beaten three times in the playoffs make it to the state finals? Seriously? BEATEN. THREE. TIMES. In Oklahoma, you lose twice and you go home and the better teams continue. In Arkansas, it's like a triple-elimination tournament where the weaker teams are rewarded for losing.

2. What is the reasoning behind putting the number 1, 2 and 3 ranked teams on the same side of the bracket? Are they not wanting to see THE BEST teams in the finals. What happens is that you get one of the elite teams playing against a team that has been BEATEN THREE TIMES. That's ludicrous

3. I am totally perplexed that any state tournament game would be played on any of the finalists' home court. How is that fair to give anyone the homecourt advantage when you get to that level? If it comes down to a bidding process with the Arkansas Activities Association, then it shows that money rules and the student athletes aren't front and center.

4. Why would you have state tournament games that are not centrally located? It blew my mind last year when they were held in tiny Marmaduke in the middle of nowhere. But I guess it's all about the money and the highest bidder and not about the athletes.

I'm not putting down anyone or the activities association. Just trying to understand....

RedWolf275

The real question is, if you are really from Oklahoma why do you care what we do in Arkansas?

Ctucker


byrdphan

Quote from: RedWolf275 on March 04, 2017, 08:51:16 pm
The real question is, if you are really from Oklahoma why do you care what we do in Arkansas?

Because I happen to have nieces playing on a team that has made it to the state tourney the last three years.Thank you for asking. :)

Tom88us

I agree 100 % I guess AAA just doesn't know any better............

bulldog

IF ONE OF THE ELITE TEAMS PLAYS A TEAM THAT HAS LOST 3 TIMES THAN THE ELITE TEAM SHOULD WIN!!!!!!

MAYBE YOU NEED TO TELL THEM THEY ARE ELITE AND SHOULDN'T LOSE!!!

APPARENTLY THE TEAM THAT LOST 3 TIMES IS PRETTY GOOD OR THEY WOULDN'T BE IN THE FINALS!!!!!

ISN'T IT ALSO FUNNY THAT A 5 SEED IN DISTRICT PLAY IS ONE OF THE FINAL 2 TEAMS LEFT!!!! 

MAYBE THE 5 SEED WAS SEEDED WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!

bigworm

The answer to the question is our activities association just isnt very good. Fair doesnt matter to them. Money is all that seems to make a difference. Most everything they do seems backwards. Our association is ran by superintendents of our schools. Most of them dont give a rip about sports.

bulldog

Okay, so lets just send the conference champions to the state tournament and do away with the district and regional tournament all together. 

Also, tell the NCAA to stop taking anyone to their tournament who is not a conference champion.

I mean why should a team that finishes 4th in the conference even be allowed to play??



softballfan

Quote from: bulldog on March 04, 2017, 09:23:10 pm
IF ONE OF THE ELITE TEAMS PLAYS A TEAM THAT HAS LOST 3 TIMES THAN THE ELITE TEAM SHOULD WIN!!!!!!

MAYBE YOU NEED TO TELL THEM THEY ARE ELITE AND SHOULDN'T LOSE!!!

APPARENTLY THE TEAM THAT LOST 3 TIMES IS PRETTY GOOD OR THEY WOULDN'T BE IN THE FINALS!!!!!

ISN'T IT ALSO FUNNY THAT A 5 SEED IN DISTRICT PLAY IS ONE OF THE FINAL 2 TEAMS LEFT!!!! 

MAYBE THE 5 SEED WAS SEEDED WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!
Very well said

4real

After talking with a former OK small school coach, and learning the post season format for OK, it sounds like there are more similarities than differences.  The scenario of a team losing three times in post season and making state finals is confusing a bit...
In district play it possible to lose after you make semis and go on to regionals, then I guess if you lose in semis of regional you might have a 3rd place game you might lose, thus getting the four seed for state.

What's more crazy, in my opinion is that in Arkansas the big schools have a smaller state tour, with more athletes and depth. Small schools have to play emotional tour after tour to be state champs with less depth and athletes.

bulldog

Here is the scenario.

Team A  in question under NEW seeding rules is put in the 5 spot in district tournament when in reality should have been the 2. 

Game 1 of district tourney wins by almost 30.  Then loses in Semi's to eventual champion.

Team A then plays in 3/4 game for seeding purposes and loses on last second shot.  Enters Regionals as a 4 seed.

Team A goes through regionals without a loss until playing in championship against same team that beat them in district semi's and also became district champions and now regional champions.

Team A enters State Tournament as a 2 seed and now faces the same team that beat them in District Semi's and Regional finals. 

Both schools from the same conference.  Same conference that placed them as a 5 seed into District play.




bulldog

Please allow me to shoot one more scenario at you just for kicks.

1995

Atkins vs Perryville

Same conference

Played each other 5 times during the season.

Perryville beats Atkins in finals of UCA tournament

Perryville beats Atkins twice during conference play.

Perryville beats Atkins in Finals of District Tournament

Perryville beats Atkins in Finals of Regional Tournament

COLLISION COURSE FOR A 6TH GAME!!!

Perryville upset in semi's of state!
Atkins wins in semi's!

Atkins wins state tournament!

Last time I checked, this format has now been used for at least 20 years.

Love it or hate it, it is what it is.

Oh by the way, the TEAM in question was also in the FINALS LAST YEAR!

ISU7

Quote from: bulldog on March 04, 2017, 09:23:10 pm
IF ONE OF THE ELITE TEAMS PLAYS A TEAM THAT HAS LOST 3 TIMES THAN THE ELITE TEAM SHOULD WIN!!!!!!

MAYBE YOU NEED TO TELL THEM THEY ARE ELITE AND SHOULDN'T LOSE!!!

APPARENTLY THE TEAM THAT LOST 3 TIMES IS PRETTY GOOD OR THEY WOULDN'T BE IN THE FINALS!!!!!

ISN'T IT ALSO FUNNY THAT A 5 SEED IN DISTRICT PLAY IS ONE OF THE FINAL 2 TEAMS LEFT!!!! 

MAYBE THE 5 SEED WAS SEEDED WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!
exactly. I believe his team lost.I wonder who hmmm.

N2DEEP

First thing is the AAA is only out for money.

Next I agree that the playoffs are watered down, just like in football.

This is how I would set it up regular season denotes conference seeding. District tournament winner and runner up goes to regional. Play thru regional and regional winner and runner up got to state.. No losers brackets no third seed games, just the top two.

Also there should be no mixed or split conferences. there should be 6-8 teams per conference and each team should play the other conference team twice, once at home and once away.

Not sure when it all changed, but in 1992 it was top two, not 4+.

JCWLADYREBELDAD

Quote from: N2DEEP on March 05, 2017, 12:48:05 pm
First thing is the AAA is only out for money.

Next I agree that the playoffs are watered down, just like in football.

This is how I would set it up regular season denotes conference seeding. District tournament winner and runner up goes to regional. Play thru regional and regional winner and runner up got to state.. No losers brackets no third seed games, just the top two.

Also there should be no mixed or split conferences. there should be 6-8 teams per conference and each team should play the other conference team twice, once at home and once away.

Not sure when it all changed, but in 1992 it was top two, not 4+.
Why is everyone so opposed to four teams from the district and regionals advancing. You sound like your full of "sour grapes" as the old saying goes. What happened did your team lose to a 3 or 4 seed.
You still have a true state tournament, now it just allows for a team that may have had a bad night in a district or regional and ended up a four seed to still have a chance to make a run, such as Hector's girls have done the last two years. Last year they came out of regionals as a four seed and made it to the finals. This year they came out of their district as a four seed and with a win tonight will be back in the finals again. Y'all can complain all you want but a team still has to win once the reach the state tournament. I agree that it is about the money but more teams in gives more opportunities for a team to go on a run. The reason you play the game is because anyone can be beat on any given night.

Ozark Hog

The AAA is a joke, and they are out for the money. What really bothers me is the quality of the officials we have at these games. Its seems to get worse every year. The kids are giving their best effort I just wish some of the so call refs would do the same, and  go by the rules not make them up!!

softballfan

Its not just the Hector girls, what about Marked Tree. They entered state as a 4 seed. If only the top 2 seeds from regionals got to go then they would not be in the championship game either. Some teams just have a bad night or a kid is sick or hurt and they get beat in District or Regionals. Basketball is all about match ups and this is why sometimes you have lower seeds advancing deep into these tournaments.

AT

Quote from: byrdphan on March 04, 2017, 08:39:00 pm

1. How can a team that has been beaten three times in the playoffs make it to the state finals? Seriously? BEATEN. THREE. TIMES. In Oklahoma, you lose twice and you go home and the better teams continue. In Arkansas, it's like a triple-elimination tournament where the weaker teams are rewarded for losing.

2. What is the reasoning behind putting the number 1, 2 and 3 ranked teams on the same side of the bracket? Are they not wanting to see THE BEST teams in the finals. What happens is that you get one of the elite teams playing against a team that has been BEATEN THREE TIMES. That's ludicrous

3. I am totally perplexed that any state tournament game would be played on any of the finalists' home court. How is that fair to give anyone the homecourt advantage when you get to that level? If it comes down to a bidding process with the Arkansas Activities Association, then it shows that money rules and the student athletes aren't front and center.

4. Why would you have state tournament games that are not centrally located? It blew my mind last year when they were held in tiny Marmaduke in the middle of nowhere. But I guess it's all about the money and the highest bidder and not about the athletes.

I'm not putting down anyone or the activities association. Just trying to understand....

I'll attempt to give my personal opinions and responses to these questions.

1. Your first question is a good question, but here's the reason...

Hector lost that district semi-final game and Arkansas schools advance 4 out of their district tournament. The best way to seed the 3 and 4 seed is to have the losers of those semifinals play each other. Hector lost that 3rd place game, but honestly Hector had already punched their ticket to regional, so it was for seeding purposes only. Now if you don't think a 3rd or 4th place district team should make it and only the top two teams should or the top team, then I guess something could be said for that but I would disagree with that this year with all the combined classification districts, which made seeding the district tournaments a mess.

Then Hector loses in the regional finals. It'd be tough to say that a regional runner up shouldn't have a chance at the state title, but there could be an argument for that.

Honestly, the answer to your first question in short is the reason Hector made it to state despite losing three times is because Arkansas advances 4 at each level and they lost in the district semi, the district 3rd place game, and the regional final.

And of course, the teams aren't rewarded by losing, so I'll assume that statement is hyperbolic.

2. I see this question/complaint a lot. "Why are all the good teams on one side of the bracket?" The brackets are evenly balanced based on SEEDING and this is the only way to balance them OBJECTIVELY. If we wanted brackets balanced SUBJECTIVELY we'd have to have coaches or someone vote or the AAA just say "Well the better teams are this team, this team, and this team, so we'll put them on different sides of the bracket." It's a big slippery slope. It's also the same reasoning so many people complained about the district tournament seedings this year. They had to be voted upon.

3 and 4. I think these can both be answered in one answer. Let's consider the alternative. Schools can't host tournaments that their schools compete in. That means we'd have to have schools not in that district host it. The problem with that is that MOST of the time, schools are not interested in hosting a tournament unless their school is playing in it. I know there are exceptions. Bigger schools will host smaller schools district and regionals every once in awhile but there's no way that is going to happen state wide without a lot of kicking and screaming.

I guess the other alternative would be sites that aren't high school, but how many are there for that? Considering all the district tournaments. And how many of those would be willing to host them?

HorseFeathers

Quote from: Almatrackster on March 05, 2017, 07:39:55 pm
I'll attempt to give my personal opinions and responses to these questions.

1. Your first question is a good question, but here's the reason...

Hector lost that district semi-final game and Arkansas schools advance 4 out of their district tournament. The best way to seed the 3 and 4 seed is to have the losers of those semifinals play each other. Hector lost that 3rd place game, but honestly Hector had already punched their ticket to regional, so it was for seeding purposes only. Now if you don't think a 3rd or 4th place district team should make it and only the top two teams should or the top team, then I guess something could be said for that but I would disagree with that this year with all the combined classification districts, which made seeding the district tournaments a mess.

Then Hector loses in the regional finals. It'd be tough to say that a regional runner up shouldn't have a chance at the state title, but there could be an argument for that.

Honestly, the answer to your first question in short is the reason Hector made it to state despite losing three times is because Arkansas advances 4 at each level and they lost in the district semi, the district 3rd place game, and the regional final.

And of course, the teams aren't rewarded by losing, so I'll assume that statement is hyperbolic.

2. I see this question/complaint a lot. "Why are all the good teams on one side of the bracket?" The brackets are evenly balanced based on SEEDING and this is the only way to balance them OBJECTIVELY. If we wanted brackets balanced SUBJECTIVELY we'd have to have coaches or someone vote or the AAA just say "Well the better teams are this team, this team, and this team, so we'll put them on different sides of the bracket." It's a big slippery slope. It's also the same reasoning so many people complained about the district tournament seedings this year. They had to be voted upon.

3 and 4. I think these can both be answered in one answer. Let's consider the alternative. Schools can't host tournaments that their schools compete in. That means we'd have to have schools not in that district host it. The problem with that is that MOST of the time, schools are not interested in hosting a tournament unless their school is playing in it. I know there are exceptions. Bigger schools will host smaller schools district and regionals every once in awhile but there's no way that is going to happen state wide without a lot of kicking and screaming.

I guess the other alternative would be sites that aren't high school, but how many are there for that? Considering all the district tournaments. And how many of those would be willing to host them?

I don't remember anyone but hot springs bidding to host the 14 state finals....

thevoice

The only incentive to host a regional or state is if your team might be in it.  AAA takes all the gate so it's a ton of work for very little in return.

Rulesman

Quote from: HorseFeathers on March 05, 2017, 07:55:06 pm
I don't remember anyone but hot springs bidding to host the 14 state finals....
i believe it's a multi year contract and involves more than just hosting 14 basketball games once a year.

4real

AAA gets all of gate and usually portion of concession, too, if it is a competitive bid...

I do think it stinks that it's possible for two teams to meet in the state finals who have played each other 4-5 times already.  Back in 08 or 09, 1A boys finals was Guy vs. Mt Vernon Enola.  MVE beat Guy four straight times then lost to them in OT in the state finals.  Crazy here but possible

PrivateLesson

I thought District or Regionals is on a rotational schedule?  Maybe I'm wrong on that. 

Rulesman

March 06, 2017, 12:33:44 pm #23 Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 02:53:01 pm by Rulesman
Quote from: PrivateLesson on March 06, 2017, 11:40:01 am
I thought District or Regionals is on a rotational schedule?  Maybe I'm wrong on that. 
Districts usually are rotated per conference by-laws. Regionals and state (excluding the finals), are run by the AAA and are bid on each year.

Clarification: state finals are run by the AAA but are not up for bidding every year. They fall under a multi-year contract that, to my understanding, includes more than 14 basketball games.

redrider30

The main problem I have is with the new alignment is the travel. Here's a sample of our post season travel. Sat. Feb. 11th 3 hour drive to Cotter for 1st round of district and drove home got home at 2:00 a.m. Thurs. Feb. 16th drive 3 hours to play district semi-final and stay in motel played in final on Friday Feb. 12th got home at 12:00 a.m. Wed. Feb. 22nd drive to 3 hours to Carlisle stay in motel 2 nights and got home on Sat. Feb.25th 12:45 a.m. Thurs. travel 3 hours stay in motel and play in Quitman the next night in State Tournament. 4 weeks in a row traveling 3 hours one way with many nights in a motel. In this time there were several teams that never spent one night further than 15 miles from home and it could work out for us next year but it won't be any more fair for the teams that have to do it next year. While I understand some people will have to travel sometimes for state and regional the schedule this year was ridiculous for some teams. Thanks AAA for helping with travel this year. Lol.

Wildcatalumni21

Quote from: byrdphan on March 04, 2017, 08:39:00 pm
I am a huge high school basketball fan from Oklahoma, and after observing the past three seasons of Arkansas high school girls basketball playoffs, I am left scratching my head a little...especially after watching what went down in the 2A girls state tournament this week.

It just seems to me that the process is unfair in many regards. I wish the Arkansas Activities Association would take a look at the way the Oklahoma Secondary Schools Activities Association does their basketball playoffs and then mirror them.

1. How can a team that has been beaten three times in the playoffs make it to the state finals? Seriously? BEATEN. THREE. TIMES. In Oklahoma, you lose twice and you go home and the better teams continue. In Arkansas, it's like a triple-elimination tournament where the weaker teams are rewarded for losing.

2. What is the reasoning behind putting the number 1, 2 and 3 ranked teams on the same side of the bracket? Are they not wanting to see THE BEST teams in the finals. What happens is that you get one of the elite teams playing against a team that has been BEATEN THREE TIMES. That's ludicrous

3. I am totally perplexed that any state tournament game would be played on any of the finalists' home court. How is that fair to give anyone the homecourt advantage when you get to that level? If it comes down to a bidding process with the Arkansas Activities Association, then it shows that money rules and the student athletes aren't front and center.

4. Why would you have state tournament games that are not centrally located? It blew my mind last year when they were held in tiny Marmaduke in the middle of nowhere. But I guess it's all about the money and the highest bidder and not about the athletes.

I'm not putting down anyone or the activities association. Just trying to understand....
Maybe the fact that the 2 teams in the state championship and actually 3 of the final 4 teams were all from the same district means that that district is tougher than the others, so how would they not deserve to be in the finals? Maybe the other teams should've played better and beat them and they could be playing for a 2nd straight title like Hector. Hector's girls done exactly what they had to do and that is WIN!! Oh and btw they was a 4 seed last year when made it to the championship game and went thru 2-1 seeds to do it! Don't down these girls just bc they didn't run the table thru the district and regional tournament. They have done what it takes to get where they are and that is WIN when it matters the most!!

JCWLADYREBELDAD

Quote from: Wildcatalumni21 on March 07, 2017, 01:03:32 pm
Maybe the fact that the 2 teams in the state championship and actually 3 of the final 4 teams were all from the same district means that that district is tougher than the others, so how would they not deserve to be in the finals? Maybe the other teams should've played better and beat them and they could be playing for a 2nd straight title like Hector. Hector's girls done exactly what they had to do and that is WIN!! Oh and btw they was a 4 seed last year when made it to the championship game and went thru 2-1 seeds to do it! Don't down these girls just bc they didn't run the table thru the district and regional tournament. They have done what it takes to get where they are and that is WIN when it matters the most!!
I agree with you totally. I just wish my lady rebels would have finished your lady wildcats off on regionals but they didn't and your lady wildcats do deserve to be in the finals. I want to congratulate them for making it and with them good luck. Hope they win it all.

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