Shooting Foul

[bobcats]

Last night at the end of the half Flippin took a shot with 2 or 3 seconds to go, a Marshall player rebounded and launched a baseball style shot full court trying to beat the buzzer.  A Flippin player hit his arm pretty hard and foul was called.  The referee would not call it a shooting foul because it was not a shooting form.  I just was looking for some input as to whether he should have been awarded 3 free throws or if the referee was right in calling it a common foul.  Has anyone seen this before?

[BigMan15]

I have seen it called before as a shooting foul although most refs will not call it.

[NEA Razorback olfan]

Most will not call a shooting foul on a fling or baseball throw in the direction of their goal , that I have seen anyways

[Arklahoma Preps]

If you want to see the video it's on our twitter.
it absolutely no doubt should of been a shooting foul. I dont care if it's a baseball throw from 65 feet or not, it was an attempt at the basket, therefore 3 shots should have even given 

[sevenof400]

If you want to see the video it's on our twitter.
it absolutely no doubt should of been a shooting foul. I dont care if it's a baseball throw from 65 feet or not, it was an attempt at the basket, therefore 3 shots should have even given

You might want to reconsider that for a bit.   

[WPWells]

What should he reconsider? I agree. I saw the video.

[WPWells]

The shot in question wasn't a baseball pass either

[ZoneBuster]

This may be a nice little debate

I agree with Arklahoma and Fred Bird. I feel like the argument for a foul and 3 shots is much easier than against. Why wouldn't it be shooting? Because it's low percentage? So what, never stopped a foul from being called with someone attacking the goal while completely out of control.

[sevenof400]

I have not seen the play - my comment was based on the previously bolded observation.  Considering a baseball type throw from 65 feet as a shot on goal is an immense leap. 

[YSPantherTO20]

Isn't a shooting foul any foul on a shot? And can't players attempt a shot anywhere on the floor? If a kid nails an 80-footer, are we going to call it a pass?

I was sitting two rows behind the Marshall bench within 15-20 feet of the player taking the shot. When the clock was stopped for the whistle, 1.6 seconds were left. The explanation I heard from the official was that it was a pass. A pass with less than two seconds left? And to who? Nobody on either team was anywhere close to the other end.

[xadboy]

Ok I haven't seen the play in question, but let's say the player makes the shot or baseball throw or pass, do they not count the points? Of course they count them, so by that I would have to say the player would get 3 free throws.

[TheOfficial]

Ok I haven't seen the play in question, but let's say the player makes the shot or baseball throw or pass, do they not count the points? Of course they count them, so by that I would have to say the player would get 3 free throws.

That scenario doesn't hold water.  If you shot the ball at the wrong basket and are fouled it's not a shooting foul.  If you bounce the ball hard off the floor and it goes high up in the air and falls thru the basket and you are fouled it's not considered a shot.  In both situations the basket counts.  So if your excuse is we count the points then that doesn't mean it has to be a shooting foul.

[WPWells]

If you're making an attempt to put the ball in your basket then I see no reason that it shouldn't be considered a shot. Your non sequitur doesn't hold water

[TheOfficial]

FYI.  In high school and college the 74 foot baseball throw isn't considered an attempt.  In the NBA it is.

[xadboy]

Ok I haven't seen the play in question, but let's say the player makes the shot or baseball throw or pass, do they not count the points? Of course they count them, so by that I would have to say the player would get 3 free throws.

That scenario doesn't hold water.  If you shot the ball at the wrong basket and are fouled it's not a shooting foul.  If you bounce the ball hard off the floor and it goes high up in the air and falls thru the basket and you are fouled it's not considered a shot.  In both situations the basket counts.  So if your excuse is we count the points then that doesn't mean it has to be a shooting foul.

Your talking about 2 different scenarios than what scenario that this post is talking about. Did you read the whole thing?

[WPWells]

Okay, TheOfficial, could you link me to the rule that says that?

[Radiotalker]

Ok I haven't seen the play in question, but let's say the player makes the shot or baseball throw or pass, do they not count the points? Of course they count them, so by that I would have to say the player would get 3 free throws.

That scenario doesn't hold water.  If you shot the ball at the wrong basket and are fouled it's not a shooting foul.  If you bounce the ball hard off the floor and it goes high up in the air and falls thru the basket and you are fouled it's not considered a shot.  In both situations the basket counts.  So if your excuse is we count the points then that doesn't mean it has to be a shooting foul.

Actually I saw the first one happen this year and they called a shooting foul. Allowed the made bucket and went to the other end to shoot free throws.

[bdog32]

Check out @ChicSportCast's Tweet: https://twitter.com/ChicSportCast/status/692898620769603588?s=09

Maybe this is the right link

[TheOfficial]

Ok I haven't seen the play in question, but let's say the player makes the shot or baseball throw or pass, do they not count the points? Of course they count them, so by that I would have to say the player would get 3 free throws.

That scenario doesn't hold water.  If you shot the ball at the wrong basket and are fouled it's not a shooting foul.  If you bounce the ball hard off the floor and it goes high up in the air and falls thru the basket and you are fouled it's not considered a shot.  In both situations the basket counts.  So if your excuse is we count the points then that doesn't mean it has to be a shooting foul.

Actually I saw the first one happen this year and they called a shooting foul. Allowed the made bucket and went to the other end to shoot free throws.

They did it wrong

[xadboy]

They did it wrong
[/quote]
What did they do wrong?

[TheOfficial]

Okay, TheOfficial, could you link me to the rule that says that?

NFHS references rule 4-41.3. College references a similar rule.
4-41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which HABITUALLY PRECEDES the release of the ball. 

A baseball throw is not the habitual motion that normally precedes a shot.  However, if the player uses a normal shooting motion from 70 feet and is fouled it would be considered in the act of shooting.

[TheOfficial]

They did it wrong

What did they do wrong?
[/quote]

NFHS case book rule 4.41.2. If you are fouled in the act of shooting at the wrong basket then the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs because it is not considered a try for goal because you are not shooting at your own goal.  Basket does not count and you don't get two free throws unless in the bonus.  If not in the bonus you get the ball out of bounds.

Therefore, in the game you are talking about they did both things wrong.

[WPWells]

This was a normal act of shooting.

[sevenof400]

This was a normal act of shooting.

Are you saying that video was a normal act of shooting?  The one posted by bdog32?

The video is definitely NOT a foul in the act of shooting, but certainly appears to have been a foul. 

[TheOfficial]

This was a normal act of shooting.

Are you saying that video was a normal act of shooting?  The one posted by bdog32?

The video is definitely NOT a foul in the act of shooting, but certainly appears to have been a foul.

I would have to agree with seven.  Two outlets running down the sideline.  No way to know if he was trying to hit one of them for a quick shot or not.

[xadboy]

They did it wrong

What did they do wrong?

NFHS case book rule 4.41.2. If you are fouled in the act of shooting at the wrong basket then the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs because it is not considered a try for goal because you are not shooting at your own goal.  Basket does not count and you don't get two free throws unless in the bonus.  If not in the bonus you get the ball out of bounds.

Therefore, in the game you are talking about they did both things wrong.
[/quote]
But he wasn't shooting at the opponents goal.

[TheOfficial]

They did it wrong

What did they do wrong?

NFHS case book rule 4.41.2. If you are fouled in the act of shooting at the wrong basket then the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs because it is not considered a try for goal because you are not shooting at your own goal.  Basket does not count and you don't get two free throws unless in the bonus.  If not in the bonus you get the ball out of bounds.

Therefore, in the game you are talking about they did both things wrong.

But he wasn't shooting at the opponents goal.
[/quote]

Keep up with the conversation.  At 9:47 on Jan 29th you said you saw the first example happen.  You said they county at the wrong basket then went to right end to shoot free throws.  I gave you the rule that showed you they did both wrong.

Keep up!

[xadboy]

They did it wrong

What did they do wrong?

NFHS case book rule 4.41.2. If you are fouled in the act of shooting at the wrong basket then the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs because it is not considered a try for goal because you are not shooting at your own goal.  Basket does not count and you don't get two free throws unless in the bonus.  If not in the bonus you get the ball out of bounds.

Therefore, in the game you are talking about they did both things wrong.

But he wasn't shooting at the opponents goal.

Keep up with the conversation.  At 9:47 on Jan 29th you said you saw the first example happen.  You said they county at the wrong basket then went to right end to shoot free throws.  I gave you the rule that showed you they did both wrong.

Keep up!
[/quote]
Believe you need to keep up! On that post I stated that I haven't seen the play in question. And really don't understand what you're saying. County at wrong basket? Please explain so us that know nothing about basketball can understand Mr Official.

[adaptedtigerfan]

How many "baseball" throws have you seen to a guy snowbirding down the floor?

[ltb759]

I bet he would have counted it if it went in.

[NEA Razorback olfan]

I've seen a baseball  pass from mid court into the post that was high, go off the players hands bounce off the backboard and rattle around and drop through the basket , was this a pass or a shot?   

No foul on the play though

[TheOfficial]

I've seen a baseball  pass from mid court into the post that was high, go off the players hands bounce off the backboard and rattle around and drop through the basket , was this a pass or a shot?   

No foul on the play though

Not considered a try but the basket would count.

[TheOfficial]

They did it wrong

What did they do wrong?

NFHS case book rule 4.41.2. If you are fouled in the act of shooting at the wrong basket then the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs because it is not considered a try for goal because you are not shooting at your own goal.  Basket does not count and you don't get two free throws unless in the bonus.  If not in the bonus you get the ball out of bounds.

Therefore, in the game you are talking about they did both things wrong.

But he wasn't shooting at the opponents goal.

Keep up with the conversation.  At 9:47 on Jan 29th you said you saw the first example happen.  You said they county at the wrong basket then went to right end to shoot free throws.  I gave you the rule that showed you they did both wrong.

Keep up!

Believe you need to keep up! On that post I stated that I haven't seen the play in question. And really don't understand what you're saying. County at wrong basket? Please explain so us that know nothing about basketball can understand Mr Official.
[/quote]

I was originally responding to radio talker not you.  He said he had seen the first scenario happen and I told him they got it wrong.

[ltb759]

Okay, TheOfficial, could you link me to the rule that says that?

NFHS references rule 4-41.3. College references a similar rule.
4-41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which HABITUALLY PRECEDES the release of the ball. 

A baseball throw is not the habitual motion that normally precedes a shot.  However, if the player uses a normal shooting motion from 70 feet and is fouled it would be considered in the act of shooting.


  You don't have the same shooting motion from 65 feet as you do from 20 feet. Much like you generally do not have the same shooting motion on a 20 foot jumper as you do on a driving layup.

A habitual shooting motion is any attempt on goal.

[Moonshiner]

The rule is worded to protect the official.  Would be hard to prove a baseball pass is either a shot or a pass.
I have seen an official this year call a foul on a situation of a beyond half court shot and foul was called on the floor.  The video clearly shows it was a regular shot attempt and you can hear the whistle blow as the shot is being taken.

[TheOfficial]

Okay, TheOfficial, could you link me to the rule that says that?

NFHS references rule 4-41.3. College references a similar rule.
4-41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which HABITUALLY PRECEDES the release of the ball. 

A baseball throw is not the habitual motion that normally precedes a shot.  However, if the player uses a normal shooting motion from 70 feet and is fouled it would be considered in the act of shooting.


  You don't have the same shooting motion from 65 feet as you do from 20 feet. Much like you generally do not have the same shooting motion on a 20 foot jumper as you do on a driving layup.

A habitual shooting motion is any attempt on goal.

That is incorrect and not the way officials are instructed to call it at the high school and college level.

[TheOfficial]

The rule is worded to protect the official.  Would be hard to prove a baseball pass is either a shot or a pass.
I have seen an official this year call a foul on a situation of a beyond half court shot and foul was called on the floor.  The video clearly shows it was a regular shot attempt and you can hear the whistle blow as the shot is being taken.

You have the benefit of replay, the official on the floor doesn't.

[xadboy]

They did it wrong

What did they do wrong?

NFHS case book rule 4.41.2. If you are fouled in the act of shooting at the wrong basket then the ball becomes dead when the foul occurs because it is not considered a try for goal because you are not shooting at your own goal.  Basket does not count and you don't get two free throws unless in the bonus.  If not in the bonus you get the ball out of bounds.

Therefore, in the game you are talking about they did both things wrong.

But he wasn't shooting at the opponents goal.

Keep up with the conversation.  At 9:47 on Jan 29th you said you saw the first example happen.  You said they county at the wrong basket then went to right end to shoot free throws.  I gave you the rule that showed you they did both wrong.

Keep up!

Believe you need to keep up! On that post I stated that I haven't seen the play in question. And really don't understand what you're saying. County at wrong basket? Please explain so us that know nothing about basketball can understand Mr Official.

I was originally responding to radio talker not you.  He said he had seen the first scenario happen and I told him they got it wrong.
[/quote]
Ok, but you still haven't given us the rule on shooting fouls.

[Moonshiner]

The rule is worded to protect the official.  Would be hard to prove a baseball pass is either a shot or a pass.
I have seen an official this year call a foul on a situation of a beyond half court shot and foul was called on the floor.  The video clearly shows it was a regular shot attempt and you can hear the whistle blow as the shot is being taken.

You have the benefit of replay, the official on the floor doesn't.

This was so obvious it didn't need replay.  He missed an obvious call.  It does happen from time to time. 

[TheOfficial]

The rule is worded to protect the official.  Would be hard to prove a baseball pass is either a shot or a pass.
I have seen an official this year call a foul on a situation of a beyond half court shot and foul was called on the floor.  The video clearly shows it was a regular shot attempt and you can hear the whistle blow as the shot is being taken.

You have the benefit of replay, the official on the floor doesn't.

This was so obvious it didn't need replay.  He missed an obvious call.  It does happen from time to time.

Very true, very true.  Lol.

[Rulesman]

FYI.  In high school and college the 74 foot baseball throw isn't considered an attempt.  In the NBA it is.

Read 4-41-2. By rule, it is a try.

[TheOfficial]

FYI.  In high school and college the 74 foot baseball throw isn't considered an attempt.  In the NBA it is.

Read 4-41-2. By rule, it is a try.

See explanation of 4-41-3 above.  It is not a try.  And my explanation comes from the powers that be in Little Rock and NFHS.

[xadboy]

Mr Official doesn't know his stuff. Any attempt to score either throwing or pushing the ball into the basket is considered a try. If a player is impeded by a defender by illegal contact, is considered a foul and the corresponding free throws shall be awarded to offensive player. This applies to all attempt's from boundry to boundry.

That comes from NFHS rule book. Go buy, borrow or look it up online.

[sevenof400]

Mr Official doesn't know his stuff. Any attempt to score either throwing or pushing the ball into the basket is considered a try. If a player is impeded by a defender by illegal contact, is considered a foul and the corresponding free throws shall be awarded to offensive player. This applies to all attempt's from boundry to boundry.

That comes from NFHS rule book. Go buy, borrow or look it up online.

In the opinion of the official will be key here. 

[adaptedtigerfan]

My point was...   Was it a pass to a guy sprinting down the court or a shot at the basket?  Only the official can make that judgment and it sounds like this one said he was passing it.

[AlumniLights]

I got one for ya, you get what you get, and dont throw a fit. "BOOYAH!" As the late Stewart Scott would say!

[HorseFeathers]

I got one for ya, you get what you get, and dont throw a fit. "BOOYAH!" As the late Stewart Scott would say!

Have you seen the 2a thread?

[Rulesman]

FYI.  In high school and college the 74 foot baseball throw isn't considered an attempt.  In the NBA it is.

Read 4-41-2. By rule, it is a try.

See explanation of 4-41-3 above.  It is not a try.  And my explanation comes from the powers that be in Little Rock and NFHS.

So under your interpretation ANY baseball throw is not a try? If that's the case, an 80 foot desperation shot at the end of any period would not count if it entered the basket AFTER the clock hits 0:00 and the horn goes off. Really now?

[TheOfficial]

FYI.  In high school and college the 74 foot baseball throw isn't considered an attempt.  In the NBA it is.

Read 4-41-2. By rule, it is a try.

See explanation of 4-41-3 above.  It is not a try.  And my explanation comes from the powers that be in Little Rock and NFHS.

So under your interpretation ANY baseball throw is not a try? If that's the case, an 80 foot desperation shot at the end of any period would not count if it entered the basket AFTER the clock hits 0:00 and the horn goes off. Really now?

You are incorrect again

[xadboy]

FYI.  In high school and college the 74 foot baseball throw isn't considered an attempt.  In the NBA it is.

Read 4-41-2. By rule, it is a try.

See explanation of 4-41-3 above.  It is not a try.  And my explanation comes from the powers that be in Little Rock and NFHS.

So under your interpretation ANY baseball throw is not a try? If that's the case, an 80 foot desperation shot at the end of any period would not count if it entered the basket AFTER the clock hits 0:00 and the horn goes off. Really now?

You are incorrect again

Sure hope you are not an official. Your idea on the rules is laughable.