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All State selection? How is it selected?Wow

Started by mack truck, December 16, 2014, 07:43:19 pm

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The Dynasty

Quote from: nastynice on December 17, 2014, 02:38:07 pm
The coaches are not letting them down, there is only 8 spots. The system is letting the kids down.

The coaches banding together and voting the 6 loss players onto the team is a big part of the problem. I'll also agree their 8 spots is tough to fit all the deserving ones in.


The Dynasty

Quote from: nastynice on December 17, 2014, 02:40:37 pm
Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 02:35:05 pm
Quote from: bigcat72 on December 17, 2014, 02:25:45 pm
The person responsible for those numbers did get all state. That is the argument.

So King wasn't responsible for his numbers?
I think he's trying to say Storey inflated King's numbers.

I know what he is saying but that's a bull crap excuse.

nastynice

Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 02:42:54 pm
Quote from: nastynice on December 17, 2014, 02:40:37 pm
Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 02:35:05 pm
Quote from: bigcat72 on December 17, 2014, 02:25:45 pm
The person responsible for those numbers did get all state. That is the argument.

So King wasn't responsible for his numbers?
I think he's trying to say Storey inflated King's numbers.

I know what he is saying but that's a bull crap excuse.
Yep

bigcat72

Again, I think King is a great player just trying to throw something out there as a possibiliry of why he was not one of the 8 picked.  I think 8 is way to low of a number for our conference. Some conferences it might be to many. I think Chuck, Booneville & Lamar all had orher players deserving of all state. Is what it is.

The Dynasty

117 receptions ties King for 3rd most in Arkansas history for a single season.

1,559 yards is 19 yards from being in the top 10 in a season and the most yards by a receiver in a year since 2008.

He had 17 receptions in a game this year which would be 8th most in a single game.

The Dynasty

Quote from: bigcat72 on December 17, 2014, 03:04:35 pm
Again, I think King is a great player just trying to throw something out there as a possibiliry of why he was not one of the 8 picked.  I think 8 is way to low of a number for our conference. Some conferences it might be to many. I think Chuck, Booneville & Lamar all had orher players deserving of all state. Is what it is.

C'Town and Booneville deserved 7 of the 8.

Can someone tell me where to find the Danville kid's numbers?

cdelaney

Quote from: bigcat72 on December 17, 2014, 03:04:35 pm
Again, I think King is a great player just trying to throw something out there as a possibiliry of why he was not one of the 8 picked.  I think 8 is way to low of a number for our conference. Some conferences it might be to many. I think Chuck, Booneville & Lamar all had orher players deserving of all state. Is what it is.
The 8 per conference is a real structural problem with this system. This year is probably typical in that there are some conferences that only have 3-4 true All State selections (this year that would be 1,2, and 3 probably) and there are some that deserve 12-15 each (4,5,and 6 this year). So that makes it extremely unlikely that the overall list will be fair most years. Lesser players from some conferences make it ahead of superior players from the more competitive conferences. Then you throw in the political/mad/jealousy angle within a conference from the coaches, that makes it  worse. So this year, even if there are only 8 per conference, the only reason there are 2 each from Danville and Lamar is the opposing coaches are NOT voting for more deserving candidates from Charleston and Booneville.
I don't really know how to solve this problem, because most HS coaches in the state really have no way to evaluate how good kids are in the other conferences. One minor tweak would be similar to what MLB does with All Star team- (each team gets one representative). Maybe each conference gets 4 spots guaranteed, but the rest go to more deserving players regardless of how many for that conference?
Maybe they should let FF posters select the teams!

The Dynasty

Quote from: cdelaney on December 17, 2014, 03:43:30 pm
Quote from: bigcat72 on December 17, 2014, 03:04:35 pm
Again, I think King is a great player just trying to throw something out there as a possibiliry of why he was not one of the 8 picked.  I think 8 is way to low of a number for our conference. Some conferences it might be to many. I think Chuck, Booneville & Lamar all had orher players deserving of all state. Is what it is.
The 8 per conference is a real structural problem with this system. This year is probably typical in that there are some conferences that only have 3-4 true All State selections (this year that would be 1,2, and 3 probably) and there are some that deserve 12-15 each (4,5,and 6 this year). So that makes it extremely unlikely that the overall list will be fair most years. Lesser players from some conferences make it ahead of superior players from the more competitive conferences. Then you throw in the political/mad/jealousy angle within a conference from the coaches, that makes it  worse. So this year, even if there are only 8 per conference, the only reason there are 2 each from Danville and Lamar is the opposing coaches are NOT voting for more deserving candidates from Charleston and Booneville.
I don't really know how to solve this problem, because most HS coaches in the state really have no way to evaluate how good kids are in the other conferences. One minor tweak would be similar to what MLB does with All Star team- (each team gets one representative). Maybe each conference gets 4 spots guaranteed, but the rest go to more deserving players regardless of how many for that conference?
Maybe they should let FF posters select the teams!

Great post!!!!

cdelaney

December 17, 2014, 03:48:03 pm #58 Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 03:59:09 pm by cdelaney
Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 03:33:29 pm
Quote from: bigcat72 on December 17, 2014, 03:04:35 pm
Again, I think King is a great player just trying to throw something out there as a possibiliry of why he was not one of the 8 picked.  I think 8 is way to low of a number for our conference. Some conferences it might be to many. I think Chuck, Booneville & Lamar all had orher players deserving of all state. Is what it is.

C'Town and Booneville deserved 7 of the 8.

Can someone tell me where to find the Danville kid's numbers?
Before they played ECS in playoffs one of their posters said he had over 1500 yds on the year. I think he had about 60 vs ECS, got hurt near the end of the first half and didn't play in 2nd half I don't think; it was mercy rule the whole time. He is quick and hard to grab if he gets in the open field. A good back, but not All State Caliber. We had 2 RBs who were better, and played in our conference against 4-5 others who were better. Not picking on him, just the facts.

OLDSCHOOL82

I can't remember the Danville kid against Booneville.  And that's not because I didn't pay attention.

The Dynasty

Quote from: cdelaney on December 17, 2014, 03:48:03 pm
Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 03:33:29 pm
Quote from: bigcat72 on December 17, 2014, 03:04:35 pm
Again, I think King is a great player just trying to throw something out there as a possibiliry of why he was not one of the 8 picked.  I think 8 is way to low of a number for our conference. Some conferences it might be to many. I think Chuck, Booneville & Lamar all had orher players deserving of all state. Is what it is.

C'Town and Booneville deserved 7 of the 8.

Can someone tell me where to find the Danville kid's numbers?
Before they played ECS in playoffs one of their posters said he had over 1800 yds on the year. I think he had about 60 vs ECS, got hurt near the end of the first half and didn't play in 2nd half I don't think; it was mercy rule the whole time. He is quick and hard to grab if he gets in the open field. A good back, but not All State Caliber. We had 2 RBs who were better, and played in our conference against 4-5 others who were better. Not picking on him, just the facts.

Thanks for the info. I honestly don't even remember the kid against C'town.


cdelaney

Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 03:57:02 pm
Quote from: cdelaney on December 17, 2014, 03:48:03 pm
Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 03:33:29 pm
Quote from: bigcat72 on December 17, 2014, 03:04:35 pm
Again, I think King is a great player just trying to throw something out there as a possibiliry of why he was not one of the 8 picked.  I think 8 is way to low of a number for our conference. Some conferences it might be to many. I think Chuck, Booneville & Lamar all had orher players deserving of all state. Is what it is.

C'Town and Booneville deserved 7 of the 8.

Can someone tell me where to find the Danville kid's numbers?
Before they played ECS in playoffs one of their posters said he had over 1500 yds on the year. I think he had about 60 vs ECS, got hurt near the end of the first half and didn't play in 2nd half I don't think; it was mercy rule the whole time. He is quick and hard to grab if he gets in the open field. A good back, but not All State Caliber. We had 2 RBs who were better, and played in our conference against 4-5 others who were better. Not picking on him, just the facts.

Thanks for the info. I honestly don't even remember the kid against C'town.

bigcat72

Maybe we should petition the AAA to make all Charleston and Booneville's players All State. The way some of them post on here, there are no other deserving players that would even need to be considered. Or maybe have an elite all state team and just leave the regular all state for the rest of the common folk.

WPWells

Tell us who's more deserving than the Charleston and Booneville players we argued for. If Lamar had better players they would've beaten us. Sorry, but that's the way it is

gold45

Teams who dominate their conference and that make it to the semi-finals or championship logically should have more "All State" worthy players.  All State QB's wouldn't have huge numbers without receivers like Taylor King.  And Booneville wouldn't be extremely successful with a one dimensional offense without talented backs such as May and other powerful threats like Berry and Smith. 

The Dynasty

Quote from: bigcat72 on December 17, 2014, 04:42:09 pm
Maybe we should petition the AAA to make all Charleston and Booneville's players All State. The way some of them post on here, there are no other deserving players that would even need to be considered. Or maybe have an elite all state team and just leave the regular all state for the rest of the common folk.

You went 0-3 against the only 3 good teams you played by a combined score of 129-48 and still have as many on the list as C'town and B'ville. What are you complaining about? If you don't want to be "common folk" beat somebody that's worth a crap.

Outside of Sampley their shouldn't have been any other players outside of C'town or B'ville that made the list.


The Dynasty

Quote from: gold45 on December 17, 2014, 04:50:00 pm
Teams who dominate their conference and that make it to the semi-finals or championship logically should have more "All State" worthy players.  All State QB's wouldn't have huge numbers without receivers like Taylor King.  And Booneville wouldn't be extremely successful with a one dimensional offense without talented backs such as May and other powerful threats like Berry and Smith.

Clap Clap!!!!!

Still shaking my head that Danville has two players on the list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bigcat72


nastynice

Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 04:54:47 pm
Quote from: gold45 on December 17, 2014, 04:50:00 pm
Teams who dominate their conference and that make it to the semi-finals or championship logically should have more "All State" worthy players.  All State QB's wouldn't have huge numbers without receivers like Taylor King.  And Booneville wouldn't be extremely successful with a one dimensional offense without talented backs such as May and other powerful threats like Berry and Smith.

Clap Clap!!!!!

Still shaking my head that Danville has two players on the list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe it's the " Johnny Chambers Effect!"

cdelaney

Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 04:52:53 pm
Quote from: bigcat72 on December 17, 2014, 04:42:09 pm
Maybe we should petition the AAA to make all Charleston and Booneville's players All State. The way some of them post on here, there are no other deserving players that would even need to be considered. Or maybe have an elite all state team and just leave the regular all state for the rest of the common folk.

You went 0-3 against the only 3 good teams you played by a combined score of 129-48 and still have as many on the list as C'town and B'ville. What are you complaining about? If you don't want to be "common folk" beat somebody that's worth a crap.

Outside of Sampley their shouldn't have been any other players outside of C'town or B'ville that made the list.
And even then, from what I have seen on Hudl, there are several QBs better than Sampley- Storey, Sears, Munson, Pipkin, Dycus, Clark. How many do we need on All State?

ChucktownTiger

I can almost guarantee the players who played aren't near as worked up as most of you guys on here. There can be great players on bad teams, that's a FACT. There can be SEVERAL good players on good teams. The fact is not everyone's gonna make it. that's life and it's not the end of the world.

As far as the Chris Williams being left off, yes he seems to be a good lineman. However, most of the time a lineman isn't gonna get on the list just for being a O lineman, an O lineman who plays D and has lots of tackles and stats has a chance but not many lineman who are strictly O lineman make the list. Unless they are one o those freaks of natures and extremely good, Chris Williams wasn't quite that.

bigcat72


The Dynasty


adaptedtigerfan


bigcat72

pitman would be another case for more selections. I think Lamar just had one last year so it is not always divided even.

swissroll101

December 18, 2014, 08:56:12 am #75 Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 09:40:16 am by swissroll101
Smackover's Hemptead should have made it.

Longfellow

Smackover is not in the 3A-4. He said the 3A-4. Smackover obviously deserved some all-state guys, but in their own conference. Read more. Post less.

Coach Jones

In 2013 Lamar finished 2nd in the Conf 9-1 record reg season and had one kid All-State.  Not crying just putting out a fact. 

YC

We need to take this with a grain of salt and just move on.

The formula used for selecting all-state players is as flawed as the brackets for the playoffs. There are kids on this all-state list that couldn't even start for many of the teams in the stronger conferences. Is it fair to some of the more deserving kids?...No it's not!!.. But things are not always fair as they will learn as they later go through life. As long as there are people with agenda driven purposes making the rules it will be that way. I just look at this, have a good laugh, and accept in my own heart the thing has very little merit and move on.

Again, just accept it for what it is and move on.

Coach Jones


STUNNA

Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 03:30:08 pm
117 receptions ties King for 3rd most in Arkansas history for a single season.

1,559 yards is 19 yards from being in the top 10 in a season and the most yards by a receiver in a year since 2008.

He had 17 receptions in a game this year which would be 8th most in a single game.
Are
You saying most yards for a charleston receiver since 2008 or in the state?

WPWells

Quote from: STUNNA on December 18, 2014, 11:28:14 am
Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 03:30:08 pm
117 receptions ties King for 3rd most in Arkansas history for a single season.

1,559 yards is 19 yards from being in the top 10 in a season and the most yards by a receiver in a year since 2008.

He had 17 receptions in a game this year which would be 8th most in a single game.
Are
You saying most yards for a charleston receiver since 2008 or in the state?

State since 2008. He also broke the all-time record for a Charleston receiver

The Dynasty

Quote from: STUNNA on December 18, 2014, 11:28:14 am
Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 03:30:08 pm
117 receptions ties King for 3rd most in Arkansas history for a single season.

1,559 yards is 19 yards from being in the top 10 in a season and the most yards by a receiver in a year since 2008.

He had 17 receptions in a game this year which would be 8th most in a single game.
Are
You saying most yards for a charleston receiver since 2008 or in the state?

In the state according the AAA record book.

WHITEchicken

Quote from: 12th Man CHS on December 17, 2014, 04:44:03 pm
Tell us who's more deserving than the Charleston and Booneville players we argued for. If Lamar had better players they would've beaten us. Sorry, but that's the way it is

Maybe not more deserving but I think so. Elmo Hempstead #7 Smackover

The Dynasty

Tied for 3rd most receptions ever by a receiver for a season statewide.

The Dynasty

Quote from: WHITEchicken on December 18, 2014, 11:38:11 am
Quote from: 12th Man CHS on December 17, 2014, 04:44:03 pm
Tell us who's more deserving than the Charleston and Booneville players we argued for. If Lamar had better players they would've beaten us. Sorry, but that's the way it is

Maybe not more deserving but I think so. Elmo Hempstead #7 Smackover

He's talking the 4-3A.

STUNNA

Quote from: 12th Man CHS on December 18, 2014, 11:35:22 am
Quote from: STUNNA on December 18, 2014, 11:28:14 am
Quote from: The Dynasty on December 17, 2014, 03:30:08 pm
117 receptions ties King for 3rd most in Arkansas history for a single season.

1,559 yards is 19 yards from being in the top 10 in a season and the most yards by a receiver in a year since 2008.

He had 17 receptions in a game this year which would be 8th most in a single game.
Are
You saying most yards for a charleston receiver since 2008 or in the state?

State since 2008. He also broke the all-time record for a Charleston receiver
I believe that is inaccurate. There have been a couple that have put up more yards than that.

ChucktownTiger

Quote from: IofthaTiger on December 18, 2014, 10:30:30 am
We need to take this with a grain of salt and just move on.

The formula used for selecting all-state players is as flawed as the brackets for the playoffs. There are kids on this all-state list that couldn't even start for many of the teams in the stronger conferences. Is it fair to some of the more deserving kids?...No it's not!!.. But things are not always fair as they will learn as they later go through life. As long as there are people with agenda driven purposes making the rules it will be that way. I just look at this, have a good laugh, and accept in my own heart the thing has very little merit and move on.

Again, just accept it for what it is and move on.

+100 Life isn't always "fair" and maybe your view of "fair" is different than someone else's. Great players make the list and great players miss the list. All will survive and like I said before more than likely most of the kids don't care as much as most of these posters.

WHITEchicken

sorry dynasty  ;D It would be hard to put a specific criteria on it. If you went by stats alone then no one from smackover would have made it. With so many backs that can run and the fact that the offense was more balanced than most in 3a they didnt have any people who had freakish stats. So that would be a problem with that kind of selection system. It is also stupid for All state to be picked before the playoffs.

Jalkuranis

Having been a coach on a losing team, all this "they ganged up on poor ole us" talk is ridiculous. At the end of the season coaches don't take the losses to heart THAT much. Look at everyone and pick who they believe made the biggest impacts for the team. Good players get left out every year. Just because it is personal to you is he only reason you are causing a ruckus.

Clara Allen

I don't think it is stupid for selections to be done before playoffs.  I mean, if a player has had a great regular season, they should be rewarded for that, not how far their team goes in the playoffs.   If that was the case, my daughter would never have made all conference in basketball because her team had a losing record. Maybe there should be post season awards for playoff performances. Go ahead and get the rocks out.  I know this is not going to set well

adaptedtigerfan

Jalk, if anyone thinks Taylor King didn't make an impact they are sadly mistaken.

Jalkuranis

Yes, but in the coaches minds I agree with whoever said that Storey was a main factor in those stats. The coaches looked at who he was and thought, "Would he have done the same with a different QB?" (Same system not different.)

adaptedtigerfan

That is true warriors...  But that's what all conf is for.

Jalkuranis

I guess what I'm saying is I reckon WRs have a hard time making it because thy depend on the QB to be reliable. RBs can be so fast/strong it doesn't matter. Basically what I'm hitting at is I don't think QBs should get yardage added to their total when they throw a WR screen or tunnel screen and the WR takes it 80 yards to the house. Give the QB the yardage that he threw for. Only then can you see that, hey this WR is really good after the catch.

ChucktownTiger

Quote from: adaptedtigerfan on December 18, 2014, 12:09:00 pm
Jalk, if anyone thinks Taylor King didn't make an impact they are sadly mistaken.


I don't think he said that. He said good players are left off. That's how it works EVERY YEAR!!!!! Not everyone can make it, that's life, thats how it goes.

The Dynasty

Quote from: adaptedtigerfan on December 18, 2014, 12:09:00 pm
Jalk, if anyone thinks Taylor King didn't make an impact they are sadly mistaken.

He had one of the best years a WR has ever had in the history of Arkansas High School football. You're spot on Adapted.

The Dynasty

Quote from: ChucktownTiger on December 18, 2014, 01:22:23 pm
Quote from: adaptedtigerfan on December 18, 2014, 12:09:00 pm
Jalk, if anyone thinks Taylor King didn't make an impact they are sadly mistaken.


I don't think he said that. He said good players are left off. That's how it works EVERY YEAR!!!!! Not everyone can make it, that's life, thats how it goes.

Go back a re-read the thread. That's exactly what's been said.

young_gun

Voting for All State is Hard to do. In the 4-3A the head coaches get together and nominate the players they feel deserve the accolade. The coaches then put a 1 by who they think is first 2 by second and so on then they talley the votes the top 4 become All State selections. Top Back, Top Linemen, Top Special Teams, I think was the categories they had to choose from. Only the top overall of those categories gets an automatic invite to play in All Star Game. The coaches are the ones who watch film each week and break down film on these kids and know more about them than anyone so I'd say its a pretty good group of kids. Some of the kids may have just been left off the list by a vote.

young_gun

In your bigger classifications 5A and up they are a little different. They start with one player and add a player for each round of the playoffs they win I believe.

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